1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Life Audio, Doctor b thanks for joining me. 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 2: Hey, it's great to be with you. 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: Doctor Michael B. Mile, chemist and professor at Leah University, 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: who is part of a new movie, The Story of Everything, 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: that examines the scientific evidence for desire behind the universe. 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: The Story of Everything dot film as the website, Doctor BD, 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: you became widely known for the concept of irreducible complexity. 8 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: That's kind of what you're known for. Do you think 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: the conversation around that idea has changed in recent years 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 1: and what role do you hope this film plays in 11 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: that discussion. 12 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 2: Well, I think more and more people are recognizing it, 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 2: although I think the scientific established revolutionary biology is still 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 2: kicking and screaming against it. But they they try to 15 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 2: engage it, and they always recognize it, and it's not 16 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 2: going away, so it'll be there and annoying them for 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 2: a long time. In Britain, in the concept of molecular machinery, 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: Darwin didn't know anything about the basis of life, cells 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 2: and molecules and so on, and we've learned that the 20 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 2: cell is run by machines, really machines made out of molecules, 21 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 2: and they are made up of many different parts. And 22 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: if you take parts the way they don't work. So 23 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: that's the irreducible complexity aspect of the phrase. So it's 24 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 2: hopefully getting concept more widely known. 25 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: He might have already answered my question, but what scientific 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: evidence presented in the film do you think is most 27 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: difficult for strict materialists to explain naturally? In other words, 28 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: if you were going to boil this the arguments in 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: this film down to one or two points, what would 30 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: you say. 31 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: The basic point of the universe is that the more 32 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: and were The argument is that the more and more 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 2: we know about the universe, the more and more books 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 2: to be purposely arranged to allow for life. Back in 35 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 2: the day and say, the time of the Greeks and 36 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: the Romans, classical times, they saw that why look, the 37 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: seasons are arranged, and we have enough water and so 38 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: on for life to exist. And this points to a 39 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: creator somebody who set up the world for life to occur. 40 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: And then arguments were advanced to pooh pooh that. But 41 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: then we learned more about biology. Microscope was invented, the 42 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: telescope was invented, and we saw that the universe actually, 43 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: if it was a little bit different, if the laws 44 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 2: of nature were a little tiny bit different, life couldn't exist. 45 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 2: And if you look at biology, it's not. Things are 46 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: not just featuredless blobs. And Darwin thought that the more 47 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: and more closely you looked at biology, the simpler and 48 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 2: simpler it would get out to be the exact opposite 49 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: of what has been discovered. I get and Darwin didn't 50 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 2: know about this cell and the contents of the cell 51 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: and DNA and molecular machinery. We've discovered those in the 52 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: past seventy five hundred years. And the information in the 53 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: cell all the machine inyan cell. That's things we know 54 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: require purposeful, intelligent arrangement to produce. And so the basic 55 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 2: point of the movie is the more we know, the 56 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,119 Speaker 2: more science advances, the more it points to a need 57 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: for an explanation beyond the universe God, which most people 58 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: will think. 59 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: So a lot of people think that the more science 60 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: we learn, the more that we learned about science, the 61 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: weaker the argument for God. 62 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 2: Is. 63 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: You're arguing the opposite, and that is that the more 64 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: we learn about science, the strongery of the argument for 65 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: God is. Why do you think so many people still 66 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: assume that science and faith are enemies? 67 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: Well, and that's an excellent question. I think it just 68 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: shows the power of sociology or so pressure in our thinking. Actually, yes, 69 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: back in the day, Darwin thought what life was simple, 70 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: The cell was just a glob of protoplasm. Most of 71 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 2: this is thought that the universe was pretty bland. You know, 72 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: there's a bunch of stars there, the earth is planned, 73 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 2: that there's water, but it's not much of them much. 74 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: And then we learned that life is extremely sophisticated and 75 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: complex and functional, and the universe is set up on 76 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: a nice edge to allow life to exist. But ever 77 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: since Darwin proposed his idea of evolution, in many quarters, 78 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: it's been assumed not so much that he did explain things, 79 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: but that science has to explain where everything i'ms from. 80 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: And somehow that got embedded as the cool idea we 81 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 2: are smart, we don't need no god or anything to 82 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: explain life and nature, and so that is the point 83 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: of view that's pushed now. I think it has more 84 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: to do with the overwhelming presence of media and the 85 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 2: media classes in our lives that push this idea that 86 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 2: science and religion are incompatible when the actual history of 87 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: the past one hundred years as this film shows and 88 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: a little one hundred and fifty years. Actually it shows 89 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: that again the more and more science knows, the more 90 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 2: it points to something beyond the universe. 91 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: To God. You've argued, doctor BiH that scientific materialism dominates 92 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: so much of scientific dominates so much of higher education. 93 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: I should say, what effect does it have on students 94 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: and young people searching for meaning and purpose when they 95 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: are continually hearing scientific materialism in classrooms? 96 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 2: Well, in classrooms it depends on a large lecture. Class 97 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 2: people don't have much time to discuss these ideas, and 98 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: you know, in one on one conversations you can see 99 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: a lot of kids are troubled by the thought that 100 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: they are just some accidental process of physical events, that 101 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: they don't really have a meeting. If they don't have 102 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: a meaning, why are they striving? Why are they even 103 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: trying to accomplish anything? Darwinian theories as the important thing 104 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 2: is to spread your genes into the next generation, But 105 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 2: you know they don't even care about that. Why should 106 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: they care about them? That's an excellent, excellent point. But 107 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: as the movie shows, in fact, science is pointing in 108 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 2: the opposite direction, and that we are planned that the 109 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: whole universe is set up so that we can exist, 110 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: that our bodies are fantastically arranged, and that means that 111 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: somebody took a whole lot of care and really really 112 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: cares about you and about and by implication, about what 113 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: you do with your life, and that will give a 114 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 2: young person a whole different point of view than if 115 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 2: there are just some accident. 116 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: I'm curious if you have seen a shift among students 117 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: in what they believe or what they're searching for in 118 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: recent years. I'm asking that because some college campuses have 119 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: seen a shift in amongst students that I'm curious if 120 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: you've seen anything like that, or just students searching for 121 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: maybe something else within the sciences besides materialism. 122 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: Well, what I sample size is not that large of 123 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: students that I interact with, and usually I interact mostly 124 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: with upper class and grad students who are really focused 125 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: on learning the details and what research projects are going 126 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 2: on right now. But there certainly are a number of 127 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 2: folks who agree with me and or agree with purposeful 128 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: design and are anxious to hear more about it. And 129 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: the problem is that we've said before it's kind of 130 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: officially discouraged. They're more than officially discouraged. It's stamped out 131 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: if you talk too much about the reality of design 132 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 2: in life. But hope that you know it's always hard 133 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 2: to predict these things. Hopefully it'll become more and more 134 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 2: dominant as the years go by. 135 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: When you're on an airplane or in an elevator, Maybe 136 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: elevator's a bad question because elevator conversations are so quick. 137 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: But if you're on an airplane or or at a 138 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: restaurant or somewhere and someone learns what you do, do 139 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: you have a go to argument for the existence of 140 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: God that you just kind of go to that you 141 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: can you know, describe in a couple of minutes. 142 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well usually Well, if they're interested in and buy 143 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: a chemistry, I start off talking about molecly machinery. But 144 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: if it's just somebody who is, why should I believe 145 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: that there's anything other than than rocks and stones and nature. 146 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: My favorite point is that you have a mind. You know, 147 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: it doesn't require any science or education to understand that 148 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 2: you know things. You can reason, and you can understand 149 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: and rockston't understand. You are different from just ordinary you 150 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: know stuff and the mind, the ability to understand points 151 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 2: to something beyond just laws and just mechanism. And if 152 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 2: you follow along that road and it doesn't get you 153 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 2: there immediately, but that will get you to a spiritual 154 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: realm and onto God. And then I asked, you, know, 155 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: how do you recognize that a mind has worked, that 156 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: a mind has been somewhere doing something. And it turns 157 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: out that the way we recognize minds is when we 158 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: see physical things arranged for a purpose. And that's the lawn. 159 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 2: But even when you speak, you're arranging sounds for a purpose, 160 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: and when you write, you're arranging squiggles for a purpose 161 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: of communication. And we see nature arranged for purposes. We 162 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: see that in the molecular machinery of the cells that 163 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 2: I write about, we see it in the laws of 164 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: the universe, and even just in nature and bunny rabbits 165 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: and birds and how they can fly. So we can 166 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: see the effects of minds, all of mind into nature 167 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: all around us. That's that's my favorite argument. 168 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: That's pretty good, And that's pretty good. Maybe final question 169 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: for you here, I would ask you why you wanted 170 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: to be part of this film. Why did you want 171 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: to be part of the story of everything? And what 172 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: do you hope it accomplishes within the culture and among audiences. 173 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: Well, I wanted to be part of it because I've 174 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 2: spent much of my career trying to get people to 175 00:11:53,840 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 2: understand that, in fact, science is pointing insistently beyond itself, 176 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 2: to beyond nature and what people recognize as God, as 177 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 2: God's affects on nature, and I want the film to accomplish. 178 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 2: What I'm trying to do, too, is that get this 179 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: awareness out into the general public, the mainstream media and 180 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: much of society, academia and the press and so on. 181 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 2: For some reason that I cannot understand, is opposed to 182 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: that idea. They want to think of humans as autonomous, 183 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 2: as determining their own faiths or something like that, but 184 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: that there is nothing out there, and I want to 185 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: show them that in fact, if you look at the 186 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 2: science itself rather than what people say, you'll find that 187 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: the science is pointing in the completely opposite direction. 188 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: You believe then, that this film could encourage the faith 189 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: of people of faith, And I'm assuming you also would 190 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: love this to be viewed by students, students who are 191 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: maybe troubled by what they hear in the classroom. 192 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, too many students have read books like say 193 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 2: the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and other popularizers of 194 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: science who make it a point to try to destroy 195 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 2: the faith of students. And it's extremely important, especially for 196 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: young people, to know that there is a purpose for 197 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: their lives that nature points to that purpose. You can 198 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 2: be optimistic the things you do will matter, and I'm 199 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 2: hoping the film will advance that message. 200 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 3: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to subscribe 201 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 3: and share the episode with a friend. Thanks to the 202 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 3: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on 203 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you 204 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 3: will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 205 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: See you next time.