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Speaker 1: Life Audio. What's happening in America is because of what

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Speaker 1: happened on the campuses. Everything moves from campus to culture.

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Speaker 1: It comes from upstream and moves downstream, and so what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing in this cultural revolution has already been embedded

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Speaker 1: in the campuses for a long, long, long time.

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Speaker 2: Why does it matter whether we call something woke left

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Speaker 2: or woke right? Why do you think the terms that

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Speaker 2: we use really matter?

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Speaker 1: Because if we don't have an adequate diagnosis, we can't

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Speaker 1: offer an adequate prescription.

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Speaker 2: Is there really a woke right? And why is this

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Speaker 2: question so important and timely today? According to our guest today,

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Speaker 2: it is a big mistake to compare what's called the

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Speaker 2: woke left with the woke right. Doctor Corey Miller is

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Speaker 2: the author of The Progressive Miseducation of America, and he's

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Speaker 2: here to make his case why the term woke right

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Speaker 2: is a misnomer and why it deeply matters. Corey, Welcome

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Speaker 2: back to the show. We had you on telling your

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Speaker 2: story how you grew up in a LDS faith and

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Speaker 2: then became an evangelical, which is amazing. You and I

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Speaker 2: went to school together way back in the day with

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Speaker 2: our master's program so it's always fun to have you on.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so good to be back, Sean, Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely so. I'm super intrigued. You sent me an

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Speaker 2: email and you said, hey, here's a thought for a story.

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Speaker 2: What do you think? And in the back of my mind,

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Speaker 2: I've wanted to talk about what's called the woke right

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Speaker 2: because there's been a ton of attention that we have paid,

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Speaker 2: maybe not enough attention, but certainly some attention to the

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Speaker 2: woke left, and this term has bubbled up, and you

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Speaker 2: brought a perspective to it that I haven't really thought

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Speaker 2: about it. So I'm actually hoping you can help me

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Speaker 2: and my audience think through what this woke right means,

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Speaker 2: why it's growing in popularity, how concerned we should be,

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Speaker 2: and how it's similar and or different from what's called

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Speaker 2: the woke left. But to start with, what interests you

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Speaker 2: in this topic? What's the background that has made you

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Speaker 2: pay so much attention to this?

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, many years ago, after you and I

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Speaker 1: had class together, I moved away stayed in philosophy of religion,

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Speaker 1: arguments for and against God's existence for you know, ten

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Speaker 1: or fifteen years. When I went off to Purdue University

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Speaker 1: for my doctorate, faced some hardships there. Didn't complete the

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Speaker 1: doctorate because I was told I had too much of

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Speaker 1: a faith perspective. Right at the beginning, I'm taking classes

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Speaker 1: on Marxism from a distinguished professor of philosophy there, and

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Speaker 1: I saw my classmates, and I saw where they went,

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Speaker 1: and I had congressmen calling me up asking for character

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Speaker 1: assessments on some of these guys. These were radicals, and

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Speaker 1: I saw, wow, this is really coming. I studied liberation

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Speaker 1: theology many years before in seminary, but I never thought

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Speaker 1: we would actually encounter it much in America when I

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Speaker 1: got to Purdue, and it wasn't just analytic philosophy. But

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Speaker 1: I'm in continental philosophy now, a place where most evangelical

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Speaker 1: Christians don't, you know, focus their attention. I saw something

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Speaker 1: significant was coming down the pipeline, and my interest began

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Speaker 1: to change, in part because of my new position with

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Speaker 1: Raschio Christi and all of the litigation that we are

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Speaker 1: involved with constantly to be on campus across America, to

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Speaker 1: have freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and so forth.

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Speaker 1: But you know, with that and my understanding more of

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Speaker 1: cultural Marxism, it started to open up a vista of

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Speaker 1: an almost untapped area in Christian apologetics. And then I

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Speaker 1: ran into a guy who was my sort of doppelganger opposite,

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Speaker 1: and that was an activist Peter Bagoshian, who wrote the

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Speaker 1: book A Manual for Creating Atheists, forward by Richard Dawkins

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Speaker 1: and endorsed by Michael Shermer, or vice versa. He invites

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Speaker 1: me to his atheism seminar at Portland State University to

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Speaker 1: give a two hour lecture on God's existence and then

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Speaker 1: allows his students to try to take me down. And

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Speaker 1: then we went and had lunch together. It was great,

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Speaker 1: that's awesome. He proposed an alliance, and I thought, okay,

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Speaker 1: this is odd. I wasn't expecting this, but I did

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Speaker 1: know that we both had a similar background and a

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Speaker 1: similar vista in our trajectory. And he said, we need

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Speaker 1: you and you need us. He said, if we go,

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Speaker 1: you go, and if you go, we go. In fact,

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Speaker 1: you're already gone from the universities. And I remember telling

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Speaker 1: him at that time, I said, Okay, I see the

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Speaker 1: sense of what you're talking about. The enemy of my

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Speaker 1: enemy is my friend. We had to partner with Stalin

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Speaker 1: in the early days of World War two, and then

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Speaker 1: at the same time keeping our eye open on the

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Speaker 1: other person. And he later admitted that, yes, we ruined things.

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Speaker 1: We him, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and so forth. We

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Speaker 1: always talked and wondered if we destroy the God of

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Speaker 1: the West, some other god or gods are going to

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Speaker 1: replace it. But they had no idea how bad it

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Speaker 1: would become. And so when I walked him to his office,

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Speaker 1: I said, Peter, why is your office the only office

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Speaker 1: in the Portland State Police Department. He said, I think

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Speaker 1: it's for my safety from Antifa, the anti fascists, the

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Speaker 1: Marxists that are doxing him and endangering him and his family.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of people know the story of him

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Speaker 1: and James Limsay and other people on the Grievance Studies

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Speaker 1: and how they put forth these fake published papers in

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Speaker 1: leftist peer review journals and had half of them accepted

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Speaker 1: by simply overlaying contemporary woke or Marxist or new Left

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Speaker 1: thought on the surface layer. And it passed muster until

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Speaker 1: someone blew the whistle from the Wall Street Journal and

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Speaker 1: said it's all fake. And so from that time forth

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Speaker 1: he was now running from the new Left, he being

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Speaker 1: a new atheist trying to destroy Christianity being a total

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Speaker 1: liberal himself. Now that liberal atheist and me, a conservative Christian,

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Speaker 1: are now going on a speaking tour together. And we

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Speaker 1: began at Utah State University.

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Speaker 2: Hey, let me jump let me jump in here before

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Speaker 2: he tyler. He began, because you've probably heard Justin Brierly,

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Speaker 2: of course, UK apologist who wrote the book The Surprising

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Speaker 2: Rebirth of God in twenty eighteen, or The Surprise and

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Speaker 2: Rebirth of Belief in God. Yeah, so in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 2: or twenty nineteen he hosted a conversation in Portland and

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Speaker 2: I ended up being the Christian side of that. And

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Speaker 2: he originally went to Peter Bagosian asking him to be

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Speaker 2: the atheist kind of interlock youateur for this dialogue. And

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Speaker 2: Peter at that point he said, I'm not so interesting

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Speaker 2: in this atheist theist conversation as I was. I'm concerned

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Speaker 2: with something new, and he started talking about cultural Marxism.

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Speaker 2: So he's the same one who woke up so to speak,

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Speaker 2: for lack of a better term, and shifted the narrative

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Speaker 2: for Justin Bridle to go, wait a minute, maybe times

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Speaker 2: are changing from what you referred to earlier, just to

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Speaker 2: give context to people when you mentioned Sam Harris and

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Speaker 2: Richard Dawkins and names like Christopher Hitchins. For the first

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Speaker 2: ten years of the twentieth century roughly dominated conversations about

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Speaker 2: God in this group called the New Atheists, and the

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Speaker 2: idea was that religion is false and it's bad, it's

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Speaker 2: ran out of justifications. If we just get rid of it,

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Speaker 2: we'll have a blissful, wonderful state. But the way you

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Speaker 2: frame that, Corey, is so interesting that Peter would say,

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure if Sam or Richard would agree with

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Speaker 2: this or not, but that he said we actually opened

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Speaker 2: up the door for a lot of this trying to

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Speaker 2: knock down the Christian God, not realizing what worldview would

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Speaker 2: come in and take its place. That is such a

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Speaker 2: fascinating point you made. So you're going on this speaking

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Speaker 2: tour with Peter pick up where we left off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So we started at the university where Charlie Kirk's

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Speaker 1: alleged assassin began his college career, and we hit four

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Speaker 1: universities in two days, and we got canceled by a

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Speaker 1: Christian campus ministry, ironically, and he couldn't get the atheist

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Speaker 1: groups to attend either because he said they wouldn't lift

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Speaker 1: a hand to help me. And Richard Dawkins now they've

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Speaker 1: all gone woke, and I followed up with them because

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Speaker 1: I didn't know if he was telling the truth, and

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Speaker 1: he was absolutely right. So we were like this odd

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Speaker 1: couple coming together. Our own camps wouldn't show up at

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Speaker 1: the events, and we were just going to be talking

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Speaker 1: about viewpoint diversity and the death of intellectual diversity in

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Speaker 1: the universities. Now he lost his first PhD attempt. I

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Speaker 1: lost my first PhD attempt. I got told I had

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Speaker 1: too much of a faith perspective, and the Marxist professor

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Speaker 1: put a permanent note in my file that I was

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Speaker 1: delusional in schizophrenic. And then when I went on for

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Speaker 1: the second PhD attempt, I defended before a guy who

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Speaker 1: claims to be the first trans UK philosopher in the

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Speaker 1: entire British Isles. And I talked to Justin Bryerly at

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Speaker 1: that time and said, could you get all three of us,

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Speaker 1: one Bagosian and this guy who is now a gal Right,

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Speaker 1: But anyway, we only made it a weekend. We were

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Speaker 1: going to hit Texas next and hit other states after that.

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Speaker 1: But then shortly after that COVID hit, George Floyd died,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, all hell bro clues across

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Speaker 1: the nation and the university we ended our lecture at

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Speaker 1: was Utah Valley University, where Charlie Kirk was assassinated. Wow

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Speaker 1: for giving viewpoint diversity and dialogue right. And so I

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Speaker 1: just talked with Peter this morning. Actually, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about a possible new book on freedom because of where

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Speaker 1: we began and how much things have changed ever since then.

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Speaker 1: So finding allies in the strangest places now is just

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Speaker 1: it's a really weird thing. You know. We're in a

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Speaker 1: cultural revolution, and that's why you get people like Richard

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Speaker 1: Dawkins claiming to be a cultural Christian and Elon Musk

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Speaker 1: a cultural Christian, and Jordan Peterson an existentialist Christian and

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Speaker 1: Democratic presidential candidates now on the Republican you know platform

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Speaker 1: with Trump and Caitlyn Jenner, Bruce Jenner running for the RNC,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Republican governor in California. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is just crazy. Our world is different now, we are

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Speaker 1: in a cultural revolution, and so I wanted to figure

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Speaker 1: out what in the world is going on, what kind

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Speaker 1: of revolution is this And that's where I really set

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Speaker 1: into this trajectory in social political philosophy and thinking from

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Speaker 1: a distinct Christian position, how do we navigate this now?

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Speaker 1: And we understood what the woke left was, and I

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Speaker 1: was trying to spend a lot of time educating our

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Speaker 1: own people and our own audiences on this. And suddenly

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Speaker 1: this thing after Charlie Kirk died, It's almost like it

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Speaker 1: burst on the scene. It was already there, but now,

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Speaker 1: you know, with people asking questions about whether Charlie Kirk's

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Speaker 1: tactics were sufficient. Gen Z Boys, for example, I was

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Speaker 1: interviewed by Fox News and they talked about this resurgence

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Speaker 1: of gen Z Boys coming back to church and back

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Speaker 1: to conservatism, and I said, I don't know, are they

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Speaker 1: coming back following Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan who are

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Speaker 1: knocking at the door of the churches, Or is it

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Speaker 1: Andrew Tate with his wife beater shirt, or Nick Fuentes

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Speaker 1: and the Droipers, or is it the late Charlie Kirk

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Speaker 1: who's now deceased and who knows what's going to happen

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Speaker 1: with that movement. But he was already struggling for what

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Speaker 1: he called the Lost Boys of the West. Where are

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Speaker 1: they going to land? And the jury is still out

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Speaker 1: on that one, because the woke right is now a term,

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Speaker 1: but whether or not we should use that term as

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Speaker 1: another question entirely.

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Speaker 2: Okay, That gives us to the heart of what we're

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Speaker 2: in talk about. And one of the reasons I wanted

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Speaker 2: to in particular to have you on is last week

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Speaker 2: I talked about concerns from the left and Scott Ray

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Speaker 2: and I from Talbot, one of my colleagues, we reviewed

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Speaker 2: a book about why Christian should be leftists and what

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Speaker 2: he meant was socialists. So we critique that and made

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Speaker 2: a case for capitalism, not that it's perfect, but a

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Speaker 2: positive case that it works as an economic system because

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Speaker 2: so many people have been taken in by socialism for

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Speaker 2: reasons we don't have to go into here. But what

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Speaker 2: I wanted to do is also have a critique of

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Speaker 2: ideas on the right, or what's called the woke right

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Speaker 2: that also concerned me, and that's why your email was

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Speaker 2: absolutely perfect. Now remind us, maybe briefly, before we come

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Speaker 2: to the woke right. This will help set us up

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Speaker 2: what do we even mean by woke left? Because this

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Speaker 2: term has changed and also can mean different things to

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Speaker 2: different people. And I know you talk about this in

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Speaker 2: your book, but maybe just remind us some of the

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Speaker 2: key ideas of what we mean by kind of wokeism

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Speaker 2: and how that relates to the wolk left.

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Speaker 1: Sure, and the book title is called The Progressive Miseducation

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Speaker 1: of America. It wasn't the title that I originally chose.

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Speaker 1: The publisher forced that one on me. Okay. I had

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Speaker 1: the third revolution from the campus to the culture and

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Speaker 1: a vision forward. I wanted to show people what's happening

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Speaker 1: in America is because of what happened on the campuses.

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Speaker 1: Everything moves from campus to culture. It comes from upstream

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Speaker 1: and moves downstream, and so what we're seeing in this

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Speaker 1: cultural revolution has already been embedded in the campuses for

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Speaker 1: a long, long long time. I was talking, though, not

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Speaker 1: about a violent revolution. I was talking about an ideological

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Speaker 1: revolution and primarily focused on the universities, which is the

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Speaker 1: waters that I swim in, and the publisher decided to

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Speaker 1: change it. So it makes me look now a bit

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Speaker 1: more like my book is about politics. It's not. It's

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Speaker 1: more about ideology and what's happening from the ideas up

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Speaker 1: in the campus are coming down in culture such that

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Speaker 1: today we now live on campus. And so I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to explain to people what is it that this revolution

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Speaker 1: is about, Where did it come from, how did this happen,

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Speaker 1: and what can we do about it? And so I

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Speaker 1: basically show that there were two major ideological revolutions that

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Speaker 1: took over our universities that we Christians started. The first

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Speaker 1: with scientific naturalism. I won't go into that, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people understand what that is, but that laid the

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Speaker 1: groundwork the apex of the scientific the naturalist experiment after

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Speaker 1: about a century was Richard Dawkins and Peter Bagogian and

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Speaker 1: things like that. And I look at Dawkins as sort

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Speaker 1: of like the Robest Pierre of the French Revolution, who

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Speaker 1: created the guillotine for his enemies, and then he got

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Speaker 1: guillotined by his own guillotine, and now he wants to

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Speaker 1: be friends. And so what was coming behind them has

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Speaker 1: done the same thing that they did to the founders

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Speaker 1: of the universities to the Christians. And right at the

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Speaker 1: time when the dust was settling in America in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and we had to go start our new

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Speaker 1: universities like the Bible Institute of Los Angeles, like Calvin

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Speaker 1: College and Wheaton and other places. Over in Germany, once

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Speaker 1: again was this nefarious thing happening, And now we know

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Speaker 1: it was critical theory, which was a Freudian Marxist sort

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Speaker 1: of synthesis that eventually their leaders came over and they

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Speaker 1: taught in our brightest universities, and then within about fifteen

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Speaker 1: years the founders of postmodernism began, and that was in France.

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Speaker 1: We hear names like Leotard or Deredaf or Deconstructionism or

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Speaker 1: fu cot all of these guys. When we think postmodernism,

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Speaker 1: maybe we think relativism, skepticism toward a meta narrative or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But if they're relativists, then it means that their politics

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Speaker 1: ought to be everything from far left to far right.

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Speaker 1: But the surprising fact is that they weren't. They were

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Speaker 1: all uber left. They were called the new left. They

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Speaker 1: were card carrying members of the French Communist Party or

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Speaker 1: sympathizers with it. And so they were taking off from

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Speaker 1: the scientific naturalism, moving in now to the neo Marxist synthesis,

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Speaker 1: the Freudian Marxists adding to it, this new postmodern witch

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Speaker 1: is brew So we can go into that or not,

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Speaker 1: but it is this new phenomena that eventually came over

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Speaker 1: to our universities and they went into the humanities and

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Speaker 1: social sciences, whereas the First Revolution went into the hard sciences.

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Speaker 1: And these guys, eventually, decades into it, started making their

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Speaker 1: move and started kicking out the first guard. And by

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Speaker 1: the mid nineteen nineties, you know, the ratio of liberal

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Speaker 1: the conservative professor was two point three to one. In

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Speaker 1: the last twenty five years, it's now twenty three to

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Speaker 1: one or twenty seven to one for the IVY leagues.

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Speaker 1: In some places it's seventy to one, at Yale at

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Speaker 1: seventy eight to one. And so these are not viewpoint

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Speaker 1: diversity academies at all. So we need to be preparing

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Speaker 1: and understanding what's coming from upstream is coming downstream, and

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Speaker 1: this is what's pushed out the Richard Dawkinses and the

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Speaker 1: Peter Bagosians and the Elon Musks and the RFK and

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Speaker 1: Tulsi Gabbards and everybody else into this cultural revolution. We

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Speaker 1: are in an ideological revolution. And so rather than just

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Speaker 1: a simple definition of woke, what I like to do

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Speaker 1: is I like to layer it for you and I

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Speaker 1: as trained philosophers helping out everybody else to see that

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Speaker 1: philosophy is. It's kind of simple. It's three branches. It's

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Speaker 1: what is real? How do we know what is real?

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Speaker 1: How should we then live based on what we know

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Speaker 1: about reality? Woke is part of epistemology, it's part of knowledge,

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Speaker 1: so it fits right in there. But this whole woke

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Speaker 1: worldview part of the critical race theory or the postmodern

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Speaker 1: cultural Marxism. It's got a metaphysic at epistemology and an

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Speaker 1: ethic or what is real? How do I know what

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Speaker 1: is real? How should I then live based on what

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Speaker 1: I know about reality? And so I choose not to

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Speaker 1: define this popular slogan of DEI in that way. I

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Speaker 1: do it dee because the D fits in metaphysics, what

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Speaker 1: is real in human relations, the I fits in epistemology inclusivity,

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Speaker 1: and the E fits in ethics equity, and it goes

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Speaker 1: in that order. And this will help us understand what

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Speaker 1: woke really is and eventually why I think it's a

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Speaker 1: misnomer to be applied to the right inasmuch as we've

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Speaker 1: got problems there. We need to use terms accurately and

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Speaker 1: be clear about what we're saying, because we can't provide

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Speaker 1: an adequate prescription if we don't have an adequate diagnosis.

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Speaker 2: So, okay, super fair. There's been a lot of books written.

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Speaker 2: This actually just got in the mail today Post Woke

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Speaker 2: by Neil shanv one of my favorite kind of popular

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Speaker 2: level books on this. I know you guys Rascho Christy

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Speaker 2: did a great pamphlet with him some of the rudimentary

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Speaker 2: ideas of this that's really really well done. So we

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Speaker 2: talked about what kind of wokeism is here and in

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Speaker 2: the culture, but we haven't talked about it on the

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Speaker 2: woke right. And I'm totally up for you persuading me

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Speaker 2: and convincing me not to use the term woke right.

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Speaker 2: I've somewhat adopted it because I've heard it used didn't

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Speaker 2: really see the harm in it. So before we talk

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Speaker 2: about what's meant by that, why does it matter? Why

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Speaker 2: is it whether we call something woke left or woke right?

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Speaker 2: Why do you think the terms that we use really matter?

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Speaker 1: As I just said, because if we don't have an

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Speaker 1: adequate diagnosis, we can't offer an adequate prescription, okay, and

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Speaker 1: the words we use matter. We want it to be accurate.

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Speaker 1: We want it to be truthful, we want it to

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Speaker 1: be helpful. And already it's taken a lot of effort

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Speaker 1: to try to get people to understand what woke itself is.

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Speaker 1: And now if we start applying it in the wrong area,

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Speaker 1: we end up running into a couple of problems. One

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Speaker 1: is this both sideism narrative. Right after Charlie Kirk was assassinated,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of sympathy in the country for

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Speaker 1: about twenty four hours, and then you started seeing some

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Speaker 1: really you know, nasty language coming out from people who

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Speaker 1: thought of him poorly and thought of conservatives poorly, and

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Speaker 1: the the temperature started to raise with all of that.

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Speaker 1: And it was after that that people started to choose

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Speaker 1: sides and push away from where Charlie Kirk was going,

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Speaker 1: and they wanted to adopt this name that had been

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Speaker 1: given to them, called the woke right. But something required

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Speaker 1: a pause. This both sides ism that was happening was that,

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Speaker 1: you know, assassinations happen on both sides, We have extremists

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Speaker 1: on both sides. Violence is both both sides. In fact,

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Speaker 1: political violence happens more on the right than it happens

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Speaker 1: on the left. So you started seeing data sets coming

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Speaker 1: out in the social media showing that on the right

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Speaker 1: political violence is far worse. Most people aren't going to

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Speaker 1: look that up. They're just going to wonder about it

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Speaker 1: until you start to open up the hood and see

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Speaker 1: what's under there. They're considering neo Nazis on the right,

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Speaker 1: and you might think Nazism as a kind of socialism,

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Speaker 1: maybe it should be left. They've got the KKK on

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Speaker 1: the right. Well, the Democratic Party invented the KKK. They

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Speaker 1: have Islamists on the right. They don't account for a

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Speaker 1: lot of the trans shooters in this category and so forth.

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Speaker 1: So you started to see cherry picking happening with the data,

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Speaker 1: and the effect of the both sidesism is that, wow,

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Speaker 1: we've got problems on both sides. Everybody's got extremists. Let's

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Speaker 1: just all beware of the extremists. So the reality is

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Speaker 1: that people on the right, not everybody, but those that

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Speaker 1: are conservatives, and more deeply, what are they trying to conserve,

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Speaker 1: and that is they're deeply held religious beliefs beginning with

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Speaker 1: Genesis one twenty six. We are made in God's image.

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Speaker 1: That's why black lives matter, That's why all lives matter.

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Speaker 1: That's why liberals, conservatives lives matter, everyone's matters, because God

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Speaker 1: is the sanctifier of human life. And so you would

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Speaker 1: think it predictable that you're not going to have as

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Speaker 1: much violence on the right. Forget just the abortion question.

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Speaker 1: Is violence even political violence? And you start to look

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Speaker 1: at the left and you start to see most atheists

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Speaker 1: vote left. They feel most comfortable in that camp Republican

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Speaker 1: and Democrat. That's superficial. Below that is conservative and liberal

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Speaker 1: or Marxist now, and below that is secularism or religion. Well,

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Speaker 1: those things should have consequences in the behaviors. And so

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Speaker 1: I think when we have this both sides ism, what

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Speaker 1: happened then is it sort of neutralized the conversation and

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Speaker 1: that there's just bad violence on the left and the right. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's true, but if we can't really diagnose the problem,

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Speaker 1: we can't offer a prescription. And I contend that the

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Speaker 1: violence is predominantly on the left. We have you know this,

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Speaker 1: this notion of what's it called an assassination culture now

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Speaker 1: came out of the Washington Post. And when Luigi Mangioni

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Speaker 1: assassinated Brian Thomas Thompson of United Healthcare, what was amazing.

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Speaker 1: Wasn't just that he came from University of Pennsylvania as

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Speaker 1: a graduate student and so forth, but how many people

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Speaker 1: in gen Z were lauding him as a heathen? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so you started to see and then out of

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Speaker 1: Rutgers came this study that showed that fifty six percent

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Speaker 1: of those who claim to be on the left think

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Speaker 1: it justifiable to assassinate President Trump. And so you're finding

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Speaker 1: all of these other studies that counterbalance the other side.

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Speaker 1: So that said that both sides is, I think is

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Speaker 1: an effect we want to avoid if it is inaccurate

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Speaker 1: just throwing terms around. The other thing is hang.

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Speaker 2: On before you come the SEGMENTE. I just want to

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Speaker 2: make sure I'm tracking with you, because there's multiple questions

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Speaker 2: at play here. There's a question of like, is the

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Speaker 2: left more violent than the right? Who do we characterize

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Speaker 2: as the left? Who do we characterize as the right.

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Speaker 2: And there's the question of should we even call what's

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Speaker 2: on the right woke right? And the way we call

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Speaker 2: something on the woke left. Your concern, just to make

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Speaker 2: sure I understand, is you think if we just call

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Speaker 2: woke left and woke right, it leads to kind of

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Speaker 2: a relativistic or a neutral playing field. Resay, Well, there's

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Speaker 2: just problems on the left and the right, and it's

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Speaker 2: all equal, and we fail to show where the problem

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Speaker 2: really lies. That's your concern. Did I capture that fairly?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, that's correct.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: And there is a distinction you've seen it made on

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Speaker 1: social media between the left and the new left. The

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Speaker 1: new left is the Marxist left. It's the illiberal left,

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Speaker 1: contrary to the old left, those who are liberal. So

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Speaker 1: someone like Peter Bagosian would call himself a liberal. He's

431
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 1: the old left. But the left has been classically liberal,

432
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: even if atheist, but they would believe. And this is

433
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: where Peter Bogosian and I, as allies, we adopted Voltaire's

434
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: statement together, who is a deist? I may disagree with

435
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: what you say, but I would defend to the death.

436
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: You're right to say it. But Stalin comes along and

437
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: says something more like, ideas are more powerful than weapons.

438
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 1: We don't allow our enemies to have weapons, so why

439
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 1: should we let them have ideas. That's the heart of

440
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,239
Speaker 1: cancel culture. And it is primarily on the left, not

441
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 1: just anecdotally in my experience, but according to data where

442
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: the cancel culture is rooted in. And it's not in

443
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: the old left either, it's in primarily the new Left.

444
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: So there is something happening over on the left that

445
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: has been infiltrated by this post modern cultural Marxist zeitgeist.

446
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: It's a worldview that started outside of America and came

447
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: into America, and it happened to infiltrate into the Democratic

448
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: Party more so than into the Republican Party, probably because

449
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: it was already leaning toward a secularist base. But now

450
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: you've got this thing happening on the right which is

451
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: a reaction to their experienced people's experiences, their lived experiences

452
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: on the left. So let me explain that lived experience,

453
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 1: because that's where rests. Okay, So when we think about

454
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: this in terms of what is real? How do I

455
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: know what is real? How should I then live based

456
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: on what I know about reality? Metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics

457
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: the three branches of philosophy. Diversity in academia means you

458
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: locate all of these and you identify all of these

459
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: identity politics groups and you formulate them on the two

460
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: sides of the haves and the have nots. The oppressed

461
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 1: and the oppressors, the victims and the victimizers, And you're

462
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: either in one camp or the other, and you might

463
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: have multiple intersectional levels of this. You might be black

464
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: and not white, woman and not man, transgender and not cisgender, whatever.

465
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: But everybody belongs to at least one, and most people

466
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: to multiple of these classes. And what you do with

467
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: that at this point comes next. But first, this is important.

468
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: It's not just that you've divided oppressor and oppress e camps.

469
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: It's the nature the definition of the oppression is not

470
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: just psychologized, but it's also embedded in an entire worldview.

471
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: I've heard you say on one of your podcasts, quoting

472
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: Thomas Soul, Jonathan Height says it a lot too, that

473
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: disparate treatment does not entail disparate outcomes. In other words,

474
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: inequality entails injustice. And they would say, no, it doesn't,

475
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: but if you're part of the Marxist ideology, you believe

476
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: absolutely it does. It's not just oppression, and you know

477
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: someone being oppressed by someone else, And so that claim

478
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: being true of people on the right, and that claim

479
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: being true of people every year of every Earth year

480
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: that we've existed, it's a particular philosophy that inequality entails

481
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: in justice always. It's that kind of oppression. And the

482
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: epistemology then is that those people who are the oppressed,

483
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: they have special insight once they have emerged with what

484
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: is called critical consciousness in Marx's thought. It's part of

485
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: what is called standpoint epistemology. Your standpoint theory started in

486
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: second wave feminism by people like Sandra Harding, who applied

487
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: it first in feminism, but she says she got it

488
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: from Marx. And so you have a special esoteric knowledge

489
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: based on your positionality or based on your social location,

490
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: and you have special insights. So you were once blind,

491
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: but now you see the other people they could just listen,

492
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: learn and lament because they're blind. The us they can

493
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: be is be less white, or be less male, or

494
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: be less whatever. But you have special insight. And so

495
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: we should include practice inclusivity only for those who are

496
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: part of the oppressed camps. We should exalt them, promote them,

497
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: give them platforms and d platform or exclude those who

498
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: are the oppressors. And then what you do next in

499
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: ethics is, if the problem is social oppression, the solution

500
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: is social liberation. Liberational consciousness, and it is equity, revenge, reparations,

501
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: payback for however long. Now, what's going on here is

502
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: these guys, ultimately, at least this is what they say.

503
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: They imagine for the Beatles song, imagine this utopia, this

504
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: communist utopia where we're all sharing things in common and

505
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: there's no more competition, there's no haves and have nots.

506
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 1: It requires a little bloodshed, the dictatorship of the proletariat,

507
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: but after a while they give it back to the people.

508
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: The state just withers away, and we've got this harmony

509
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: across the land. Their ultimate goal is utopia and equality.

510
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: It's egalitarian. None of those things in d I E.

511
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: Are what we're seeing on those who are charged with

512
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: being woke. Right, These people who are say white Christian nationalists,

513
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: if they are out there, and they are, they're not

514
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: people who think that inequality entels injustice. They think inequality

515
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: is the right way to go. But they're supremacists. They

516
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: need to be on top. Their ultimate goal is not

517
00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,959
Speaker 1: equality egalitarianism. Their ultimate goal is to have themselves on

518
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: top and have perpetual inequality. We don't call the Confederate

519
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: soldiers woke. We don't call the Nazis woke, they're just

520
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: white supremacists. And so what's going on here with these

521
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: people on the woke right being charged with, Well, they're

522
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: involved in identity politics, you know, white supremacy or Christian

523
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: supremacy or male patriarchy and imposing their viewpoints on other people. Okay,

524
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: their tactics are similar, their methods might be similar, but

525
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: they're metaphysic, they're epistemology, and their ethic they're not the same.

526
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: And so while there are similarities, there aren't relevant similarities

527
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: to provide necessary and sufficient conditions to defining what woke

528
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: really is and what we've tried so hard to do

529
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: to get people to understand what this revolution is and

530
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: where it came from. People on the so called woke

531
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: right don't believe those things.

532
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's take this one by one and break

533
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 2: this down. I think I'm seeing the distinction that you're

534
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: making that you're saying woke left and woke right have

535
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 2: maybe some similarities on the surface, but when you go

536
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 2: beneath the surface, then those similarities fade. Hence we shouldn't

537
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: use the same terms. So let's start with what you

538
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: call epistemology. Now these are big, fancy philosophical terms, but

539
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: it basically just means knowledge. It's the study of how

540
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 2: we know things through testimony, through intuition, through science, and

541
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 2: when it comes to what's on the what you call

542
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: cultural Marxism wokeism, the way to know something is through

543
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 2: standpoint epistemology. That's the term that's used that if you

544
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:54,720
Speaker 2: have certain intersections, so a certain economic status, a certain

545
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 2: sexual orientation, a certain approach and understanding of your gender,

546
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: if you're able bodied, if you're certain religion. By the way,

547
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 2: earlier you said all of us have at least one Corey,

548
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: I have none of them. I don't think I have

549
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: a single one. I'm not sure you do either. When

550
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: I show the chart of intersectionality of my students, I say,

551
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 2: I'm actually the face of oppression. Now I'm not rich,

552
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: but I live in southern Orange County. I'm doing fine,

553
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 2: so compared to the rest of the world, I guess

554
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 2: on some level I would maybe check that box just

555
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: living where I live. But the point being, based on

556
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,919
Speaker 2: a certain standpoint you have of a category or characteristic

557
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 2: you belong to, you have special knowledge and insight because

558
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: of that because of my sexual orientation, because I'm male

559
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: or female. Because whatever it is you're saying, that doesn't

560
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 2: carry over to the woke right. They don't have the

561
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 2: same kind of epistemology. Then what kind of epistemology does

562
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: this group that we call the woe right have and

563
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: how is it different from standpoint epistemology?

564
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: The similarities and I, like I said, at surface level,

565
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: they are on the level of the same behaviors imposing

566
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 1: our ideologies, maybe deplatforming in some cases. They are fixated

567
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: on certain identities. But I want to be careful with

568
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: identity politics because identity politics as such was rooted in

569
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: this Marxist New Left understanding of group identity being either

570
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: in the oppressor or oppressed groups. They don't adopt that

571
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: social binary metaphysic. They don't adopt the standpoint epistemology when

572
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: it comes to knowledge, and they don't adopt the egalitarian

573
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 1: ultimate goal because they might be supremacist in these ways.

574
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 2: Okay, let me, let me, let me rudely jump in.

575
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: I'm trying to grasp you're arguing here, So let's come

576
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 2: back to they don't adopt the egalitarian you said. They

577
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 2: don't adopt identity politics, oppressor and oppressed. What I hear

578
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: coming from is people flipping it and saying, oh, it

579
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 2: is the white Christian male who are those who are

580
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: being oppressed? And they'll give examples of how they think

581
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 2: this is the case. So it seems to me, unless

582
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: I'm missing something, they're kind of adopting the same kind

583
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 2: of framework that's given to them from the woke left,

584
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 2: but saying instead saying, no, it's not black people, it's

585
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 2: not straight people. I'm sorry, it's not gay people, it's

586
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 2: not transgender, it's not poor people. It's white male Christians

587
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 2: understood a certain way, who are the ones who are

588
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 2: being oppressed? So why am I wrong in terms of

589
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: them adopting the same framework but just switching who who

590
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 2: is actually the oppressed versus the oppressor? When it comes

591
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: to this, Wolk right.

592
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: It's the necessity operator in logic, in equality entails injustice,

593
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: or inequality might intel injustice. What caused the inequality? You

594
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: know some study show, for example, and I've seen you

595
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: use this. Neil has used this illustration in job employment.

596
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: If you just give names and they sound like say

597
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: African American or Hispanic names, they might get passed over

598
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 1: for some more white sounding name. Likewise, you could find

599
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: things on the opposite side where the Supreme Court needs

600
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:50,240
Speaker 1: to weigh in, because clearly there was racist admissions hiring

601
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: at Harvard and University of North Carolina and so forth.

602
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: So we're not saying that these white males haven't been oppressed,

603
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: or that there isn't oppression among blacks or Hispanics or

604
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: something like that. There may well be, but that's an

605
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: empirical matter. We have to go investigate that. We have

606
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: to look at the facts. But the facts are our hindsight,

607
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: those are our second most. If it doesn't fall into

608
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 1: the theory, you push it out. The metaphysics simply is

609
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: inequality entails injustice. If there's an unequal outcome, it's because

610
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: it's caused by injustice, full stop. And so someone like

611
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: ib Ibrames Kendy, he's not going to be interested in

612
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 1: your stats. He's always just going to say there's an outcome,

613
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: whether it's SAT scores or whatever. If blacks are always

614
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 1: down here and whites are always up here, there must

615
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: be It's a must, it's a necessity. Operator there must

616
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 1: be some causal link of injustice. Something nefarious go going on.

617
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: Thomas Sulla comes along in his book on Disparities Right.

618
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 1: He shows that no, there's there's awful. There's an awful

619
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: lot of possible explanations for inequality. Sometimes it's unjust, and

620
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: sometimes it's just because of the river systems or the

621
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: social policies or whatever.

622
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: We don't know, all right, let me so, let me

623
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 2: jump in. I wouldn't normally do this a guest, but

624
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 2: you and I have friends, We go way back, and

625
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: I'm really trying to understand the case that you're making here.

626
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: You're saying, so the book left, it's built into their

627
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 2: ideology and the worldview from the ground up that these

628
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 2: categories mean by definition, that there is inequality built in

629
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 2: and any sign of any inequity different outcome is proof

630
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 2: of the inequalities. So they so they that's not a

631
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: negotiable part. That's not something you have to prove by

632
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 2: empirical evidence. That is a starting point its opera. It's

633
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 2: an a priori how they know and understand the world.

634
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 2: This woke right is flipping it on its head and

635
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: saying no, actually, we're the ones who are pressed here,

636
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 2: but not because they start with the same world views,

637
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: saying by definition, white Christian males, etc. Are oppressed. They're

638
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 2: saying in practice, this is what's happened. So it's reactionary

639
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: against it. It's almost parasitic upon it, rather than the

640
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: same kind of built in ideology from the bottom up.

641
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 2: Is that fair?

642
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 1: Right? That's right? And there are some people like James Lindsay,

643
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 1: for example, who was part of the New Atheists years ago.

644
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: He's now a conservative. He's done a lot to educate

645
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: even Christians in Christian movements.

646
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 2: He's an atheist still right now.

647
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: He's agnostic now and he's playing with the idea of God.

648
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: Peter Bagozian now wants to call himself a skeptic and

649
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: not so much an atheist. It's interesting to see what happens,

650
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, in this is in this cultural revolutionary moment.

651
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: Where was I going with that?

652
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: Oh man, I cut you off. Sorry, Corey, Shoot, you're

653
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: making a point about James Lindsay.

654
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 1: Oh Lindsay, who is one of the biggest educators on

655
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: this a year ago when I was looking at his stuff,

656
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: he was the one who sort of popularized this notion

657
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: woke right, and now every blogger is starting to use it.

658
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: But even he said back then I'm not comfortable with

659
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: the term. And then two months ago I saw him

660
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: again using the term and he said, I use it

661
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: loosely of the right. And then today when i'm rea

662
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: a material, once again he's applying it on the surface

663
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: level of behavior, of tactics, of methodology. He's not going

664
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: to the deeper philosophical issues. One of my other friends

665
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: that we've mentioned, Neil Shenvy, is also very careful as

666
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: a scholar, and he gets in many of the essential ingredients,

667
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: but he misses certain aspects that I've just pointed out

668
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 1: that need to be packed in because they're baked into

669
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: the philosophy of the identity politic on the left that

670
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: can't be on the right. Once anyone does accept that

671
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 1: they're automatically on the left, it's a Marxist left, it's

672
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: a new left. And so even Nil Shenvy says, if

673
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: you don't like the term, I understand, maybe use a

674
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: different term, like dissident right or the new right. And

675
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: so I say, okay, so that we don't confuse things,

676
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: let's do it now. There is another major thinker who's

677
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 1: got a book out there called The Case for Christian Nationalism,

678
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: and that is Stephen Wolfe. He's part of the reformed movement.

679
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: Not everybody in that movement likes what he's doing. Some

680
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: people like theologian Kevin Dejung first challenged him on it

681
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: and asked, you know, whether his idea of imposing this

682
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: Christian nationalism, this white Christian nationalism, what does it do

683
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: with the First Amendment? For example? Was the First Amendment

684
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 1: a mistake? You know, what are we going to do

685
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 1: with the Muslims, What are we going to do with

686
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: the Mormons, what do we do with the Baptists? And

687
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 1: what do we do with the Catholics. Nick Fuentes, who's

688
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 1: often said to be one of those on the woke right,

689
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: well he's a Catholic and America's founding was largely Protestant,

690
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: so there's a lot of messiness there. But even Stephen

691
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: wolf he's one who actually says explicitly, I'm going to

692
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: advocate that we take the principles of critical theory and

693
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: we make them work for us with a different starting

694
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: point to give us the wanted, desirable conclusion. The problem

695
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: is when you start to read his comments on it,

696
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: he doesn't understand the essential ingredients going into again the metaphysics, epistemology,

697
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: and ethics either. So we need clarity philosophically from the

698
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,919
Speaker 1: three branches of philosophy. What do we mean by these

699
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: social binaries? What is packed in in the woke left

700
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 1: is not what the right is appealing to. Stephen Wolf

701
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: is not going to embrace that view on the reality

702
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: of social binaries. He's not going to embrace the next

703
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 1: category or the final category either. So we can call

704
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 1: it that, as Lindsay says, loosely, we can say we're

705
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: uncomfortable with it. We can come up with a different

706
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 1: term for it. And I lawd that, and I say,

707
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: I think we do need a different term because it

708
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: only confuses and already confusing issue.

709
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 2: Okay, So who falls in this category of what we

710
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 2: would call the woke right and is it similar on

711
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: the surface when we say the woke left. There's a

712
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 2: lot of different people that kind of fall into that category.

713
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: Some would identify as Christians, some would identify more as materialists,

714
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,399
Speaker 2: even though I know you would argue that the world

715
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: view behind it is more materialist with its Marxist roots.

716
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 2: But who would be some of the key figures whatever

717
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: we call it? Aside for now, the new right, the

718
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 2: dissident right. Some still refer to the woke right. We've

719
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 2: talked about issues to that. Who'd be some of the

720
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: key people that you would place in that category.

721
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: I think you would consider someone like Steven Wolf who

722
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: is Reformed Protestant, and you would consider someone like Nick Fuentes, okay,

723
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: who is Catholic and he has the followers that are

724
00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: now called the Gropers, and he's the hottest thing now

725
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: in social media. Almost no one knew of him. He

726
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: started out with Daily Wire trying to get in there,

727
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: and Ben Shapiro just went scorched Earth on him a

728
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago. Because when you're speaking to conservatives

729
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: and you use the term woke and you stick that

730
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: on someone like a dirty sock, immediately amongst a conservative audience,

731
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: there is a visceral effect. And that's the intent is

732
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: to stick someone like Fuentes right or wrong. You stick

733
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: them with this notion woke that already has a a

734
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: negative term, a negative connotation to it, and you get

735
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: rid of your enemies. And there is a lot going

736
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,959
Speaker 1: on there with we could get into this the whole

737
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: issue of anti Semitism Israel. Israel is actually somewhat central

738
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: to many of these people that are charged with being

739
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: on the woke right.

740
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 2: Okay, so let me chum up here. I want to

741
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 2: come back to some of Fuince's beliefs and the appeal,

742
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 2: because I think he by far represents what's called again

743
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 2: the woke right, and it does concern me, and I

744
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 2: want to come back to your level of concern with that.

745
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 2: But let's maybe just let's maybe take a step back

746
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 2: and compare and contrast. You said, we want to make

747
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 2: this simple. There's ethics how we live, there's epistemology, how

748
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 2: we know, and there's metaphysics what is real? So presumably

749
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,240
Speaker 2: on the woke side, you would say the woke left,

750
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: what is real is more materialism with its Marxist ruth.

751
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: There might be exceptions, but it's more of an atheist

752
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: materialist worldview. Would you agree with that? Is that what

753
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 2: you would argue for wokeism?

754
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: That's most consistent for it. But yes, it has, As

755
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: Antonio gramscy envisioned, you must infiltrate the long march through

756
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: the institutions, which were academia, media, and ecclesia, until we

757
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 1: get into the churches, the seminaries, the Christian academic societies,

758
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 1: campus ministries. We haven't done our job yet. So while

759
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: it's grounded historically on naturalism, it can be divorced from that. Okay,

760
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: and that's I think what has happened with progressive Christians.

761
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,720
Speaker 2: Okay, got it, which is a whole other conversation. That's fair.

762
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 2: I don't want to put everybody who embraces a kind

763
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 2: of woke belief in the atheist camp. That be far

764
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 2: too simplistic. But it's roots that makes sense. Epistemology, how

765
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 2: we know stuff, lived experience, and ethics, how we should live.

766
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 2: You talked about we should if you're not in one

767
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: of those categories, wake up to your contribution to the

768
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 2: oppression and become an ally to those who are fighting

769
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 2: against oppression. That's how we should live. Let's shift that

770
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: to this new dissonent. Right, is it possible to put

771
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: it in similar categories or is it just so broad

772
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 2: and different that we can't simplify it in that same way.

773
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: You can put them in identity categories, but the identity

774
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: politic or identity power is not going to be the same. Remember,

775
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: the end goal for someone like a let's say Nick Fuentes,

776
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: Let's just say he was actually a white supremacist. There

777
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: might be more reason to think that Stephen wolf Is

778
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: than Nick fuents Is when you get down to their

779
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 1: real views and not just their performative actions. In any case,

780
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: let's say he is really a white supremacist. Well, we

781
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 1: don't call the Confederate soldiers woke just because they're white supremacist.

782
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: They weren't Marxists. They were Theists, at least on paper,

783
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: and they didn't have this idea of egalitarian utopia in

784
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: the future. Their idea was that and they would cite

785
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: as much Darwinian science and Confederate theology as it took

786
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: to convince people that they were superior to blacks. Right,

787
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: So you can have an identity power in this new

788
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: movement on the right, but it doesn't connote the same

789
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: thing as the wokeness on the left, which has the

790
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 1: necessity operator inequality entails injustice. Disparate outcomes always must entail

791
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: disparate treatment. They're saying, we we agree that there should

792
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 1: be unequal outcomes. That's fully just we're superior. They're they're

793
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,319
Speaker 1: not in the same category. And to complicate things even more,

794
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 1: you have Fuentes, for example, befriending others that are in

795
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: the black community that are blacks of premacists, and so

796
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: talk about the identity politic like say a Lewis Farakahn,

797
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: or you know, think about anyone who's a member of

798
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: the black supremacist movement. It might be smaller than the

799
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: white supremacist movement, but neither of those supremacist are egalitarian,

800
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 1: so they can't technically be classified as woke, falling under

801
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: the categories of D, I and E once we define

802
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: the terms in philosophy.

803
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 2: Okay, So you don't like the term woke, and I

804
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: think you've made your case that there's similar practices, they're

805
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 2: similar maybe strategies, but the belief system underlying it is

806
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:51,439
Speaker 2: fundamentally different. And that makes sense to me. I think

807
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 2: I'm with you on that. What would you say to

808
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 2: somebody who just said okay, or actually, let me refrain that.

809
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 2: So maybe we shouldn't use the term woke, But you

810
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 2: still are okay with the term right. So we've got

811
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 2: kind of the woke left, we've got the dissident right,

812
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:08,800
Speaker 2: the new right.

813
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: The problematic right, whatever we.

814
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 2: Want to call them. And you know, I haven't done

815
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: a deep dive on violence on the left versus violence

816
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 2: on the right. How concern I am with the left

817
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 2: concerned I am with the right. I just I have

818
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 2: not personally done a deep dive on that, but I

819
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,479
Speaker 2: can tell you some of that stuff I'm hearing fwent

820
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 2: to say, and talking with young people on campuses. You know,

821
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 2: I teach it talbot, I teach a bio. But I'm

822
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 2: out speaking on campuses all the time. This is bubbling

823
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 2: up and it concerns me. It concerns me a lot.

824
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 2: Tell me what you're seeing on college campuses in terms

825
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 2: of this dissident right, and what do you think the

826
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 2: attraction is for it.

827
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, first of all, the final chapter in my

828
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,439
Speaker 1: book is called Maga and the morning after I asked

829
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: the question, can America be made great again if America

830
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: is not made good again? And I say no, America's

831
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: greatness comes from her goodness. And if we don't reestablish

832
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: that revolutionary foundation, we're not going to be able to

833
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: politicize this without violence. And this is the concern of

834
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 1: some of those on the right because they are saying

835
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: and the younger generation, and I'm talking to gen z

836
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: ers saying this, They say, we thought Charlie Kirk may

837
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 1: have been the way, but they killed him. It's not

838
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,919
Speaker 1: the way. It's ineffective. Not even Trump is the way.

839
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 1: The whole thing needs to burn down. Some of them

840
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: are just anti GOP, so they're right, but it's not

841
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: necessarily Republican as far as they're concerned. Let the whole

842
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: thing burn down and start all over. But their vision

843
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:04,760
Speaker 1: tends to be more political. In my estimation, I'm thinking

844
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: it needs to be more transformational. We need to be

845
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 1: thinking about soul saving, but we also need to think

846
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 1: about institutional recapture because the institutions are critical. James Davison Hunter,

847
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,399
Speaker 1: who wrote the book To Change the World, says that

848
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: even when you look back at many of the Christian

849
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 1: revivals that were substantial or cultural revolutions or movements, they

850
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 1: may start out in among the masses, but they never

851
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: really get traction until they're baptized by the elite. And

852
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: so my claim is in the original title of the

853
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: book is the third revolution from the campus to the

854
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 1: culture and a vision forward. As goes the campus, so

855
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,359
Speaker 1: goes the culture. As goes the US campus, so goes

856
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:57,440
Speaker 1: the world. It's that influential. You can't escape it because

857
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: everything is coming from camp down into the corporate world,

858
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 1: into the churches, into the seminaries, into your closets, even

859
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 1: you've got your cell phones there. And everybody, even if

860
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: they're not called to go back on campus, needs to

861
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: prepare for this false, poisonous ideology coming from the campuses

862
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 1: because you can no longer escape it. So when we

863
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: look at where the statistics are going right now with

864
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: the young men and the young women on the campuses,

865
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: the young the young women are going more progressive, and

866
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: there is a demographic feminization of academia across the board.

867
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 1: More young girls are enrolled in college, more girls in

868
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,959
Speaker 1: graduate school in PhD programs, more assistant professorships, and within

869
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 1: the next decade, more university presidents and full professors. The

870
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: whole thing will be demographically feminized. That's not even talking

871
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:00,320
Speaker 1: about ideological feminization and all that it entels and implications

872
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: that it'll have for the church. For example, if you're

873
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: going to college to get graduate degrees, you're going to

874
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: want to go get a job for a while, and

875
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: that's going to put off, you know, baby making. And

876
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:15,800
Speaker 1: if the women are getting the higher degrees, and the

877
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 1: higher degrees you have translates into higher paychecks. The woman

878
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 1: is going to be the breadwinner going forward, including in

879
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: Christian traditional homes. What is that going to look like

880
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 1: for everybody going forward? The men do happen to have

881
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: a greater zest for spirituality right now, but who are

882
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: they going to again? Are they following Jordan Peterson or

883
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, who perhaps haven't crossed over quite yet, they're

884
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 1: not yet Christians, but very close. Are they following Andrew Tait,

885
00:57:56,160 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: who's advocating red pelling everybody you know, pushing back against

886
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: feminism in a very unhealthy, non Christian sort of way.

887
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: Or are they following someone like a Nick Flintests. And

888
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: even if you exonerate Nick flintests on his real views

889
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: and not just the performative views or the you know,

890
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:21,439
Speaker 1: clips that people take of him. Nonetheless, he's got enough

891
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 1: groupers who really are women haters, haters of Jews, haters

892
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:30,959
Speaker 1: of blacks. I've met many of them too, the men.

893
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 1: Ironically on college campuses, in our college campuses anyway, are

894
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: our groups are dominated by men over women. Men flock

895
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: to engineering programs, women flock to nursing programs. Men flock

896
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 1: to apologetics more than the women do. So we have

897
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 1: an opportunity for these men who are now reacting to

898
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: a culture that they are so sick of being battered

899
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: by as toxic, masculine and mails. The best hope you

900
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: could ever be is Homer Simpson. And so they are

901
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 1: coming back to some conservative roots. But where they're landing

902
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 1: it's competitive right now. We need to go after them.

903
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 1: They're open. There's a crisis of belief that Justin Brierly

904
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: might talk about. Yeah, and it's an opportune moment for

905
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: us to capture the men. And when the men convert,

906
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 1: and when the men have families and they take their

907
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: families to church, the statistics show the kids come to

908
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: church more often if the dad comes than if the

909
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: mom comes. So this is a good thing that these men,

910
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,600
Speaker 1: these young men are open right now. But Nick Frentes

911
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: is after Charlie Kirk's young men, and he says, explative, explative, explative,

912
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:51,320
Speaker 1: we ft TPUSA. Your young men are following us, They're

913
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 1: going in his direction. How many I don't know yet,

914
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: none of us do. The young women we need to

915
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 1: in the field of Christian apost pogetics and evangelism, we

916
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: need to find a better way to reach them, especially

917
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: on the campuses, and it might be through a new

918
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: developing field we could talk about as rhetorical apologetics.

919
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely could.

920
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: But they're the ones that are the majoritarians now, and

921
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 1: in critical race theory, they're not talking about just numeric majority.

922
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 1: They're talking about minoritization or majoritarian the positions of power.

923
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 1: So now women are ascending to and within the decade

924
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 1: they will be at the top positions of power in

925
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: all of these universities, and that will have implications.

926
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 2: It definitely will. Let me ask you, I have so

927
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 2: many questions for you about this. You help me kind

928
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 2: of work this out real time. But part of me,

929
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:54,440
Speaker 2: and I know a skeptic would say something like Corey,

930
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 2: why are we putting so much emphasis in the long

931
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 2: term institution of the universe city Even even Charlie Kirk

932
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 2: wrote a book on like the Scam of College and

933
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 2: you can self educate today. It would make sense in

934
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 2: the early part of the twentieth century that the university

935
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 2: would be so significant, But now things aren't moving out

936
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 2: from the university. They're moving from influencers, and they're moving

937
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 2: from podcasters and YouTubers and TikTokers, etc. So what's the

938
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 2: big deal about the university. What would you say to that.

939
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 1: It's true, but prestige still matters. The name of where

940
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: you hail from, where you graduated from, where you work matters.

941
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 1: The New York Times has less subscribers than say, at

942
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 1: the USA today, but the New York Times is still

943
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 1: the paper of record.

944
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 2: That's true.

945
01:01:55,200 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 1: Harvard. As conservatives, we might disdain Harvard right now, but

946
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 1: we still think Harvard is the top university in terms

947
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: of prestige. Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia, it still has that

948
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: kind of cultural cash value. And moreover, it's a chance

949
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,919
Speaker 1: to change the world. Right now, one in every three

950
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:23,200
Speaker 1: world leaders, whether they be prime ministers, presidents, dictators, or whatever,

951
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: one in three earned an academic degree from a US university.

952
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: And right now, even with the lower numbers, perhaps going

953
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 1: to the university and maybe maybe the boys are looking

954
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: at trades more and so forth. Nonetheless, the average of

955
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 1: church going attendance today is about thirty percent weekly. If

956
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 1: you say almost weekly, it's thirty I think thirty nine percent,

957
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: thirty seven or thirty nine percent, but exactly thirty seven

958
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: to thirty nine percent of people that are age eighteen

959
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: to twenty four are enrolled in college. If you go

960
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,439
Speaker 1: to church every week, you get fifty two sermons a year.

961
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: You get sixty sermons in your first month as a freshman.

962
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:13,920
Speaker 1: So who has the ear of the future. And so

963
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 1: last month I was with doctor James Torr, one of

964
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 1: the top ten chemists in the world, top fifty most

965
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 1: influential scientists. And on the podcast that I did with him,

966
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: and then in the Sunday school teaching class we did,

967
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 1: he said it both times. This guy was crazy. I mean,

968
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 1: he came from Purdue, he did his PhD under a

969
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 1: Nobel Prize winning Japanese chemist here and he went to

970
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 1: the same church that I go to now. And so

971
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 1: we had a great conversation about this. He knocked on

972
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 1: every single apartment door and did door knocking evangelism when

973
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:47,080
Speaker 1: he was here. That's the kind of guy he is.

974
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 1: When he had kids, he used to wake up every

975
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:52,479
Speaker 1: morning at five point thirty am and wake his kids

976
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 1: up and do family devotionals. That's the kind of father

977
01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 1: he is. And he's a super scientist. But he said

978
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 1: this in the podcast. He says, I used to tell

979
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:04,960
Speaker 1: people train your child in the way they should go

980
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 1: and when they get older, they won't depart from it.

981
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: I will not tell people that proverb anymore. When all

982
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 1: four of my kids went off to college, two of

983
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 1: the four had their worldviews rocked, and one has not

984
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 1: returned yet. The philosophical subtlety that's going on in the university.

985
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 1: When the ratio is twenty three to one, twenty seventy,

986
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 1: twenty seven to one, seventy to one, or seventy eight

987
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 1: to one, no one can compete with that unless we

988
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:33,440
Speaker 1: adequately train them. And this is why I say in

989
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 1: the end of the book, it's all hands on deck.

990
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 1: It's the university stupid. It's still the paper of record,

991
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 1: it's still the place of prestige and whatever comes in

992
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: the future with AI, with technology, wherever the education source

993
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: is located, that's where we want to be. So you're

994
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 1: right in terms of podcasting or whatever, because we want

995
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 1: to be upstream where the ideas come downstream and have consequences.

996
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 1: Good ideas. Bad ideas have consequences that make victims. Good

997
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:07,520
Speaker 1: ideas have the kind of consequences that transform lives for

998
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 1: good and civilizations as well. So wherever that sources, we

999
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 1: want to be there. But right now it's still at

1000
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 1: the university, and so Peter Bagosian, for example, he joined

1001
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: and he said, let all the universities burned down. And

1002
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 1: I said, I don't think so, and he said he

1003
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, he started with Steven Pinker and a number

1004
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,200
Speaker 1: of other people, groups of people, the University of Austin

1005
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 1: that was modeled after Grove City and Patrick Henry College

1006
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 1: in Hillsdale where they don't accept any government funding. And

1007
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 1: now certain ones of them have left. It's still pursuing accreditation.

1008
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 1: But think about it. You start over all over again,

1009
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: and what are you going to have a ten thousand

1010
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 1: dollars endowment with an Atari computer? You're behind two hundred

1011
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 1: and fifty years from Harvard. So I'm saying, yes, let's

1012
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: throw multiple socks against the walls. Let's do what you're

1013
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 1: doing social media presence, Let's do what I'm doing the campus.

1014
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 1: But I'm also doing something else that I'm trying to

1015
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 1: build a coalition around, and that is the MALEIK Academic Fellowship.

1016
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: We are trying to learn from the Marxists about the

1017
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 1: long March through the institutions, and we're pumping PhD students

1018
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: getting into top one hundred institutes. Their whole job is

1019
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 1: to land a credible, sustainable, durable PhD student only chapter

1020
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 1: that after forty or fifty years, we will be reclaiming

1021
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 1: through institutional recapture ground at the universities. Al Muller I

1022
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 1: interviewed him. He took over a liberal university, it's now

1023
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 1: conservative al planning. He went into philosophy and behind him

1024
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:55,440
Speaker 1: was a beachhead and awake that transformed the entire discipline

1025
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 1: and philosophy of religion. The fact that this ideological revolution

1026
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 1: number one and number two have happened two times shows

1027
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 1: that it can happen again. So is it uphill it is?

1028
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 1: Do we have our work cut out for us? We do.

1029
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 1: But regardless, everybody must either go back into the universities

1030
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 1: for institutional recapture or prepare for the poisonous ideology coming

1031
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 1: out of it because you can no longer escape it.

1032
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 2: Well, that feels like a mic trop moment to end

1033
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 2: on Corey, You've been thinking about this a lot. Your book,

1034
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:32,800
Speaker 2: The Progressive Miseducation of America. I indorsed it, John stone

1035
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 2: Street endorsed it. You had a few other people indorse it.

1036
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 2: Very thoughtful, very compelling, especially somebody working at a university

1037
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 2: and a theological school that cares deeply about my university

1038
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 2: resonate with so much of what you have written there.

1039
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 2: I got a ton more questions for you about the

1040
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 2: woke right. I'd love to know what, Folks listening, what

1041
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 2: do you think? Do you agree with the assessment here

1042
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 2: about the woke right? Would you different say? No, the

1043
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,720
Speaker 2: worldview doesn't matter. If the tactics and the strategy are

1044
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:04,560
Speaker 2: the same, we should call it the woke right. I'd

1045
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 2: love to know what people think about this, so comment

1046
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 2: put your two cents below would be interesting to know

1047
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 2: you help me think this through, Corey. It's not often

1048
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 2: that I bring somebody on and I'm kind of live

1049
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 2: processing these ideas. But I think I'm compelled to not

1050
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:21,920
Speaker 2: use the term woke right, at least in the same

1051
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 2: way or without serious qualification as to some of the

1052
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 2: differences I said. Folks watching, make sure you have subscribed.

1053
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:31,600
Speaker 2: We've got some other conversations coming up you will not

1054
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 2: want to miss. And if you thought about studying apologetics,

1055
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 2: we are doing cultural apologetics, which is a lot of

1056
01:08:37,920 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 2: what you heard here, and also classical apologetics in our

1057
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 2: program about the Bible, Science and Faith, philosophical evidences, etc.

1058
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 2: Information is that is down below. Corey as always enjoyed it,

1059
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:51,800
Speaker 2: my friend.

1060
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on, Sam Sean, take care of Go Team,

1061
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:54,920
Speaker 1: Go God.

1062
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:57,920
Speaker 2: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

1063
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 2: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

1064
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet and it makes a huge

1065
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

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Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

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Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

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Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

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Speaker 2: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

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Speaker 2: spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible and so much more.

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Speaker 2: We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach,

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Speaker 2: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see

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Speaker 2: you when the next episode drops.