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Speaker 1: The democratic left, like political Islam, has become a domestic

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Speaker 1: terrorist network. These two groups, now closely allied, both pursue

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Speaker 1: their own type of jihad against opponents, and notice they

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Speaker 1: are the same opponents. Their target is white Christian America.

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Speaker 1: In the forefront of this jihad is the lone wolf maniac,

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Speaker 1: creating the illusion that this is an isolated problem. But

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Speaker 1: behind the lone wolf is a wolf pack carefully organizing

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Speaker 1: and creating the conditions for intimidation, viewpoint suppression, assassination, and

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Speaker 1: ultimately large scale mayhe to produce a massive social transformation

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Speaker 1: for the left. This transformation is what Obama once called

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Speaker 1: the remaking of America. That's the goal. Domestic terrorism, like

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Speaker 1: Islamic jihad, is the means to the goal. We should

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Speaker 1: not miss the forest for the trees, and focusing on

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Speaker 1: an isolated incident we sometimes lose the larger picture. We

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Speaker 1: need a more wide angle lens, which I will try

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Speaker 1: to provide here. I want to expose the Left's domestic

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Speaker 1: terror operation, or at least a part of that operation,

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Speaker 1: by zooming in on two recent incidents. First, the alleged

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Speaker 1: assassin Cole Allen, who sought to break his way into

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Speaker 1: the White House Correspondence dinner by his own admission to

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Speaker 1: kill Trump and senior officials of his administration. He even

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Speaker 1: confesses he had no intention to target the guests the

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Speaker 1: media personalities there, most of whom he probably viewed as allies,

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Speaker 1: and many of whom were probably instrumental in shaping the

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Speaker 1: assassin's own worldview. Second, I'll dive into the revelations arising

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Speaker 1: out of the indictment of the Southern Poverty Loss Enter

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Speaker 1: the SBLC, on charges of bank fraud, wire fraud, and

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Speaker 1: money laundering. At first glance, the two incidents, the shooter

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Speaker 1: and the SBLC, seem unconnected, But I'm going to connect

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Speaker 1: them to show how the left's domestic terror network operates.

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Speaker 1: Terror networks, as it turns out, don't arise spontaneously. They

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Speaker 1: take vision, planning, funding, and wide coordination to achieve their objectives.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with what happened on Saturday night, in effect,

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Speaker 1: a third assassination attempt directed at Donald Trump. Butler, that

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Speaker 1: was Thomas Crooks, mar Lago, that was Ryan Ruth. Now

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Speaker 1: this no previous president has faced so many attempts. Lincoln,

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Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy, and Reagan all face just one.

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Speaker 1: These attempts are part of a perverse assassin nation culture

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Speaker 1: that has developed in the United States. Think of the

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Speaker 1: grizzly assassination of Charlie Kirk or the assassination of the

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Speaker 1: CEO of United Healthcare. In those cases, the attempts succeeded.

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Speaker 1: By the way, Notice how we subconsciously adopt the assassin's

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Speaker 1: own point of view. If the guy ends up dead,

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Speaker 1: it's a success. If he lives, it's a failure. Merely

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Speaker 1: a quote attempted assassination. Reacting instinctively to what I saw

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Speaker 1: on the video the Trump released I posted on social media,

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Speaker 1: I'm struck by how dumb this would be. Assassin is

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Speaker 1: running like a fool past the metal detectors. Now that's

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Speaker 1: the natural first reaction. What a lunatic. Well, I suppose

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Speaker 1: he is a lunatic, but a lunatic of a special type.

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Speaker 1: I'm quite sure this cole Alan fellow is not a

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Speaker 1: genuine lunatic. We don't have to be psychologists to figure

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Speaker 1: out he's not crazy in the clinical sense. Does he

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Speaker 1: go around insisting he's Napoleon? Does he spend three years

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Speaker 1: of his life counting the hairs on his head one

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Speaker 1: by one. Is he known to take a dump on

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Speaker 1: the carpet in his living room. No, he's not crazy

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Speaker 1: in that way. He's in a special class of crazy,

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Speaker 1: which in some respects is not crazy at all. Compare

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Speaker 1: Cole Allen to his comrades in the assassination community, the

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Speaker 1: guy who killed Charlie Kirk, or the guy who shot

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Speaker 1: the CEO of United Healthcare, or even to cast a

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Speaker 1: wider net, the man who shot those two young staffers

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Speaker 1: from the Israeli embassy in Washington, d C. Or the

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Speaker 1: Islamic conspirators who carried out the nine to eleven attacks.

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Speaker 1: These are ideologically motivated murders carried out by rebels with

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Speaker 1: a cause. Cole Allen is a mechanical engineer with a

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Speaker 1: master's degree in computer science. He went to Caltech. He's

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Speaker 1: a video game developer. He's also a Democrat who made

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Speaker 1: a small donation twenty five dollars to Kamala Harris in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. He marched in a No King's protest.

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Speaker 1: So this guy is on the left, but lots of

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Speaker 1: people fit this general profile. This is a recognizable constituency

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Speaker 1: for the Democrats. Cole Allan is a normal and perhaps

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Speaker 1: even typical member of that group. Cole Allen is also

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Speaker 1: a teacher. He was Teacher of the Month in December

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. He's an educator, so he's in the

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Speaker 1: knowledge business. He's also tasked with forming the minds of

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Speaker 1: young people. He knows what it means to persuade, to convert,

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Speaker 1: even to propagandis. I think we're right to view his

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Speaker 1: actions on Saturday through that lens, Even through his violent

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Speaker 1: actions that evening, Cole Allan was sending a message.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Cole Alan left behind a manifesto that shows he knew

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Speaker 1: exactly what he was doing. He knew he'd end up

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Speaker 1: captured or dead. He was willing to take the risk

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Speaker 1: to have a chance of taking out the President of

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Speaker 1: the United States and his top lieutenants on X. I

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Speaker 1: see Thatjesus en Rique Rojas said this guy had an

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Speaker 1: actual death wish nah, I don't think so. Cole Allan

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Speaker 1: is more accurate described as a soldier of the Left

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Speaker 1: and the Democratic Party. Soldiers, after all, take similar risks

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Speaker 1: of capture of death in order to achieve a higher objective.

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Speaker 1: We are dealing here with fanatics, not lunatics. The Russian

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Speaker 1: writer Dostoyevsky, who had a lot of experience with such

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Speaker 1: people in pre revolutionary Russia, wrote about them in novels

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Speaker 1: like The Possessed and Crime and Punishment. Dostoyevsky's point is

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Speaker 1: that the revolutionary murder is often a rational act carried

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Speaker 1: out oddly enough, from pure hearted motives. The murderer, the

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Speaker 1: terrorist is captive to an ideology, and the ideology offers

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Speaker 1: a sort of moral redemption. This is the pure hearted part.

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Speaker 1: He's convinced. He's convinced himself that he's a genuinely good guy,

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Speaker 1: like Ruskolnikov in Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment. He's willing to

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Speaker 1: do things and take risks that others could only talk about.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: In his manifesto, Cole Allen spoke of his quote righteous

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Speaker 1: duty to target the Trump administration. He wrote, I'm no

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Speaker 1: longer willing to permit a pedophile, rapist, and trader to

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Speaker 1: coat my hands with his crimes now, never mind that

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Speaker 1: Trump is not a pedophile, a rapist, or a trader.

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Speaker 1: Alan was convinced he was all three. For him, assassination

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Speaker 1: was a moral duty. He didn't want to go there,

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Speaker 1: but he didn't see any other course. He was forced

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Speaker 1: to make the attempt by his own sincerely held convictions.

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Speaker 1: These convictions, this higher goal, gives the killer the confidence

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Speaker 1: that what he's doing is righteous, that the ends justify

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Speaker 1: the means. This is the essence of revolutionary ideology. The

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Speaker 1: goal is always so lofty, so worth while, so irresistible,

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Speaker 1: that mere laws or conventions or the norms of decent

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Speaker 1: behavior don't apply. Nothing is more important than achieving the

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Speaker 1: political objective. What are the objectives the goals of the

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Speaker 1: would be killer or terrorists? The goal is not terror

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Speaker 1: per se. That's why the terror label is inadequate. Terror

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Speaker 1: describes the means, not the end, and the end, according

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Speaker 1: to Dostoyevski, is twofold. First, the murder is a purifying

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Speaker 1: act to remove a tyrant or collaborator from the scene. Second,

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Speaker 1: its purpose is to raise consciousness among other would be

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Speaker 1: revolutionaries and also among the public at large, to create

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Speaker 1: the conditions for broader revolutionary sentiment and action, and to

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Speaker 1: hasten the coming of the revolution. I wonder if these

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Speaker 1: are the two motives that inspired Cole Allen to make

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Speaker 1: a reservation at the Washington Hilton to assemble his long

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Speaker 1: gun on the scene and to attempt what surely would

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Speaker 1: have been a mass casualty event, including a presidential assassination,

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Speaker 1: had he not been stopped. But let's go beyond Cole

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Speaker 1: Allan himself to ask a broader question, how do we

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Speaker 1: get people like Cole Allen? How do we get people

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Speaker 1: like Ryan Ruth who waited on the mar Lago golf

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Speaker 1: course to take a shot at Trump? Or Tyler Robinson,

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Speaker 1: the fellow charged with assassinating Charlie Kirk Whu's trial is

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Speaker 1: coming up soon, or Luigi Mangioni, the alleged perpetrator of

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Speaker 1: the United Healthcare shooting. Such people don't just arise out

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Speaker 1: of the ground. They're not born but made. Who makes them?

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Speaker 1: My answer is the Democratic Party makes them. They are

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Speaker 1: the creation of the political left. Again, I returned to

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Speaker 1: the analogy with political Islam. Who makes violent jihadis Islam

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Speaker 1: does networks like the Muslim Brotherhood do. The Muslim Brotherhood

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Speaker 1: may be an ostensibly educational organization, even a charitable organization

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Speaker 1: in some respects, but part of its product is ideological indoctrination,

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Speaker 1: and that indoctrination produces killers who act on behalf of

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Speaker 1: the vision supplied by the Muslim Brotherhood. And so it

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Speaker 1: is with the Democrats and their version of the Muslim Brotherhood,

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Speaker 1: or one chapter of the Muslim Brotherhood is the Southern

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Speaker 1: Poverty Law Center. Admittedly, the Democrats have a wider network

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Speaker 1: that includes lots of other organizations and institutions. One could

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Speaker 1: name the Antidefamation League, the ADL, the Human Rights Campaign,

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Speaker 1: the Soros Network, Wikipedia, NPR and mainstream media organizations, legal groups,

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Speaker 1: and a constellation of NGOs non governmental organizations. But the

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Speaker 1: SBLC sits right in the center of this massive beehive

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Speaker 1: of organizations feeding them and being fed by them. It's

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Speaker 1: no exaggeration to say the SBLC is the brain, or

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Speaker 1: perhaps the heart, of the terror network of the Democratic Left.

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Speaker 1: The SBLC is responsible for creating the narrative that motivates

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Speaker 1: the left and the Democrats, and in the process creates

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Speaker 1: people like Luigi Mangioni, Tyler Robinson, Ryan Ruth and Cole Allen.

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Speaker 1: Let's turn to the indictment brought against the SBLC by

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Speaker 1: the Grand Jury. According to the charges, the SBLC was

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Speaker 1: called red handed funding a whole arsenal of racist, white

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Speaker 1: supremacist and Nazi groups. They funded the Ku Klux Klan, indeed,

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Speaker 1: they were the largest single funder of that organization. They

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Speaker 1: funded the National Alliance, a white supremacist neo Nazi organization.

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Speaker 1: Both the Klan and the National Alliance would be largely

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Speaker 1: defunct were it not for SBLC funding. The SBLC is

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Speaker 1: now being defended by the entire left and the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party establishment and basically the messages the SBLC was not

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Speaker 1: funding racism or white supremacy. It was paying infiltraders to

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Speaker 1: burrow into those organizations for the purpose of exposing them.

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Speaker 1: First of all, this kind of infiltration is done by

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Speaker 1: government agencies with prosecutorial power, not by a private nonprofit. Second,

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Speaker 1: the infiltrator is typically an outside man, like an undercover cop.

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Speaker 1: But the SBLC wasn't giving money to outside infiltraders or

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Speaker 1: even to members who agreed to become informants. Rather, it

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Speaker 1: was paying the top guys in the white supremacist and

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Speaker 1: neo Nazi organizations to carry on with their projects. The

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Speaker 1: SBLC specifically gave money for these guys to organize their

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Speaker 1: events like the infamous Charlottesville Unite the Right rally in

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Speaker 1: Virginia in twenty seventeen. Quite likely the Charlottesville rally would

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Speaker 1: not have happened or would be much smaller, were it

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Speaker 1: not for hundreds of thousands of dollars in SBLC cash.

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Speaker 1: The indictment also documents the way in which the SBLC

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Speaker 1: hid the money it gave to these groups by creating

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Speaker 1: various front organizations and passed through bank accounts. Again, this

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Speaker 1: shows the SBLC wanted to conceal its operation from outside scrutiny.

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Speaker 1: The SBLC knew it would be damaging to its reputation

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Speaker 1: and to its donor base if people knew it was

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Speaker 1: funding the very hate, the very extremism it claimed to oppose.

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Speaker 1: So why did the SBLC do it? The conventional explanation

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Speaker 1: on the right is the sa XPLC was running a

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Speaker 1: highly sophisticated fund raising operation. The SBLC raises money by

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Speaker 1: constantly claiming that racism, bigotry, neo Nazism, and white supremacy

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Speaker 1: are on the rise. But what if they're not on

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Speaker 1: the rise. Then the SBLC has to make it seem

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Speaker 1: they are on the rise. And what better way than

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Speaker 1: to secretly fund the racist groups get them to speak up,

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Speaker 1: act up, cause trouble, and then the SBLC can point

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Speaker 1: to all this and say, see, we told you so,

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Speaker 1: open up your wallet to save America from the rising

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Speaker 1: tide of white supremacy. Yeah, this is true as far

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Speaker 1: as it goes. The SBLC made a very profitable business

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Speaker 1: out of its under the table subsidies to the Klan

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Speaker 1: and the neo Nazis. This might explain why brown and

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Speaker 1: black people at the SBLC were good with giving money

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Speaker 1: to people who wanted to mean, segregate and even kill them.

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Speaker 1: They really weren't afraid of those people. They were willing

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Speaker 1: to cynically use them to boost their group's revenues and

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Speaker 1: their own paychecks. But this can't be the whole story.

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Speaker 1: Surely those black and brown officials of the SBLC were

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Speaker 1: able to convince themselves that they were part of some larger,

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Speaker 1: grander project. Surely they said to each other, this might

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Speaker 1: seem sleazy, but it's helping us to vindicate a larger purpose.

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Speaker 1: Surely they viewed their complicity in promoting white supremacy as

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Speaker 1: the means to some finer, nobler end. But what is

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Speaker 1: that noble end? Moreover, the fundraising story does not explain

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Speaker 1: the usefulness of the SBLC to the Democratic Party and

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Speaker 1: to the left. Why would the leading figures of the

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Speaker 1: left rush to defend the SBLC to keep its fundraising going,

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Speaker 1: But why how is that fundraising? How is the organization

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Speaker 1: in general vital to the national project of the Democratic Left.

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Speaker 1: Here we have to go beyond narrow and local explanations.

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Speaker 1: The broader picture is that the SBLC is in the

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Speaker 1: business of narrative creation. Its real mission is not to

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Speaker 1: fight racism. It's not even to fight racists. It's to

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Speaker 1: fight the mainstream of the Republican Party of maga of

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Speaker 1: the right by making it appear to be racist. The

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Speaker 1: SBLC has no intention to take down real Nazis or

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Speaker 1: white supremacists. Its real task is to highlight and accentuate

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Speaker 1: those people, promote them, and then to make it seem

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Speaker 1: like this is the mainstream of the Mega movement and

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party. The SBLC doesn't demonize or dehumanize racists.

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Speaker 1: It would hardly take an organization with hundreds of millions

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Speaker 1: of dollars to do that. No, the SBLC seeks to

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Speaker 1: demonize and dehumanize Trump and Charlie Kirk and me and

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Speaker 1: rank and file MAGA supporters, we are the real target. Proof.

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Speaker 1: It's right there in the SBLC archive. It's right there

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Speaker 1: in their Hate Watch newsletter. I look at what the

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Speaker 1: SBLC puts out, and I find that Trump is regularly

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Speaker 1: attacked and portrayed as a racist. I find I am

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Speaker 1: regularly attacked as a hate longer and conspiracy theorist. Charlie

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Speaker 1: Kirk is regularly attacked as a bigo. Just last year,

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Speaker 1: the SBLC accused Charlie of voting quote and authoritarian patriarchal

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Speaker 1: Christian social order rooted in white supremacy. Then, the SPLC

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Speaker 1: designations are amplified in the media constellations of the democratic left,

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Speaker 1: which include public TV, public radio, innumerable media outlets, and Wikipedia.

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Speaker 1: Just go to Wikipedia's page it's called the Racial Views

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Speaker 1: of Donald Trump. You'll see multiple citations from the SPLC,

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Speaker 1: all aimed at portraying Trump as a racist, a bigot,

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Speaker 1: a white supremacist, and a fascist. Now this seems crazy. Trump,

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Speaker 1: whatever his laws, is not a bigot. He's the furthest

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Speaker 1: thing from a white supremacist. He actually likes blacks. Charlie

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Speaker 1: Kirk could be confrontational at times, but he wasn't a racist.

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Speaker 1: My work, my films have shown how the Democratic Party

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Speaker 1: invented racial terrorism, segregation, and white supremacy to keep blacks down,

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Speaker 1: to keep them servile and dependent. In other words, my

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Speaker 1: message is sympathetic to blacks and unsympathetic to those who

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Speaker 1: have lloyded them. Now the SPLC knows all this. Its

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Speaker 1: mission is not to expose actual bigots. The point is

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Speaker 1: to make non bigots look like bigots. The SBLC carries

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Speaker 1: out its work of demonization and dehumanization through various media

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Speaker 1: groups and also through organizations like Wikipedia. In today's show,

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Speaker 1: I have a revealing conversation with Larry Sanger, who's a

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Speaker 1: co founder of Wikipedia. In that conversation, we look at

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Speaker 1: specific Wikipedia depictions of, among others, me, Wikipedia, as it

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Speaker 1: turns out, is a smear machine. It functions very much

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Speaker 1: like the SBLC, and it frequently cites the SBLC to

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Speaker 1: portray Trump, Charlie Kirk, Me others as extremists, racist, bigots,

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Speaker 1: and some people that the world would be a lot

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Speaker 1: better off without. So here's where the SPLC's mission connects

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Speaker 1: with the mission of the would be Trump assassins, and

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Speaker 1: also with the mission of those who kill Mame or

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Speaker 1: seek to harm other figures on the right. The SPLC

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Speaker 1: lays the groundwork, creates the narrative. Then groups like Wikipedia,

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, NBC News, and innumerable media outlets

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Speaker 1: promulgate that narrative. The left and the Democrats then use

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Speaker 1: that narrative to push for censoring these racist and extremist

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Speaker 1: points of view racists and extremists. According to the SBLC,

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Speaker 1: the same narrative is used to deprive its villains of jobs,

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Speaker 1: of loans, of mortgages, of credit card use, and of

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Speaker 1: social respectability. Basically, the SBLC is creating the framework to

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Speaker 1: ruin people's lives and in some cases even to have

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Speaker 1: them injured or killed. The SBLC and its constellation of

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Speaker 1: enabling networks all surely realize there are plenty of fanatics

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Speaker 1: on the left who have become fanatics precisely by consuming

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Speaker 1: SBLC and Wikipedia and the New York Times and Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party propaganda. Some of these people then sign up for

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Speaker 1: No King's protests. Others joined groups like BLM and Antifa.

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Speaker 1: In some subset of those otherwise ordinary people like Cole

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Speaker 1: Allen are turned into ideological soldiers and ideologically motivated killers.

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Speaker 1: It happens the same way in Islam, where organizations like

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Speaker 1: the Muslim Brotherhood successfully convert ordinary Muslims into murderers and terrorists.

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Speaker 1: Where will it end? I'm not entirely sure, but here's

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Speaker 1: one possibility. It might end the way the French Revolution did,

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Speaker 1: in a regime of terror that consumes the very leaders

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Speaker 1: of the revolution. Initially, Ropespierre thought the guillotine was well

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Speaker 1: suited to the aristocrats of the Anchian regime. Ultimately he

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Speaker 1: found out he too was to be guillotined. What began

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Speaker 1: as a bloodthirsty campaign against the leaders of the right

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Speaker 1: ended up in a regime of terror that also consumed

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Speaker 1: the leaders of the left. Will that also happen here?

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Speaker 1: Will the left and the Democrats themselves realize what they

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Speaker 1: are unleashing on our society. Even the media figures who

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Speaker 1: have done so much to sanctify violence against the right

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Speaker 1: must have realized that Saturday's White House Correspondents dinner that

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Speaker 1: they too could conceivably have been its victims. Will the

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Speaker 1: left and the Democrats recoil at some point and stop

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Speaker 1: it or will they only rue their actions too late

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Speaker 1: when the monster they have created devours even them in

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Speaker 1: with my friends over at Chapter today. Larry Sanger is,

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Speaker 1: along with Jimmy Wales, the co founder of Wikipedia, the

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Speaker 1: controversial but also highly influential site that so many people

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Speaker 1: turn to to get at least initial information about just

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Speaker 1: about everything, a kind of online encyclopedia. And Larry is

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Speaker 1: an information technology guy. He is a high tech guy,

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Speaker 1: but he's also has a deep interest in history and philosophy.

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Speaker 1: We're here to talk about Wikipedia, but also some of

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Speaker 1: these other issues. Larry, welcome and thank you for joining me.

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Speaker 1: I got to confess I have a kind of maybe

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Speaker 1: passionate hatred of I somewhat identify with the Elon Musk

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Speaker 1: where he said I believe to Jimmy Wales that he

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Speaker 1: would give him a billion dollars if he would change

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Speaker 1: the name to Wikipedia. Now that was not in fact done,

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Speaker 1: even though a billion dollars is a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: Your own feeling about Wikipedia. You've become a public critic

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Speaker 1: of Wikipedia, but you're also the co founder, so you

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Speaker 1: must view it with a certain type of ambivalence. Is

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Speaker 1: that a correct description of your current relationship to Wikipedia.

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Speaker 2: That's a very good brief description. Basically, for a couple

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Speaker 2: of decades, I was mostly a critic, but recently, just

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Speaker 2: last year, I became convinced that I have maybe a

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Speaker 2: special obligation to actually try to reform it, if it

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Speaker 2: is even conceivable that it could be reformed. I think

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Speaker 2: it is. It's possible, and there's some things about Wikipedia

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Speaker 2: that are worth rescuing. The problem that I see right

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Speaker 2: now is that Wikipedia isn't going anywhere. You can, you know,

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Speaker 2: excoriate it all you like, and it's still there the

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Speaker 2: next day. And as a result, it is one of

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Speaker 2: the being one of the institutions that the left has

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Speaker 2: marched through. Right, why don't we try doing the same

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Speaker 2: in reverse. That's the proposition that I've been working from

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Speaker 2: basically for the last six months or so, so.

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Speaker 1: It seems to be what you're saying is that, and

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Speaker 1: I suppose what could apply this logic to the media,

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Speaker 1: to the universities. There's been a kind of leftist march

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Speaker 1: through these institutions, and there's always a question of are

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Speaker 1: these can they be reformed from within, or do we

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Speaker 1: have to create alternative institutions that compete. And I think

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Speaker 1: you were suggesting a moment ago that you're you're looking

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Speaker 1: at alternatives maybe a now. Elon Musk of course has

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Speaker 1: Grokipedia and and groc is. In fact, I use it

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Speaker 1: quite a bit. It's a very useful tool. Do you

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Speaker 1: think that Grokipedia could in fact be a real alternative

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Speaker 1: of Wikipedia or what else do you have in mind?

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Speaker 2: Well, a couple of different things. Elon Musk actually announced

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Speaker 2: plans for Grokipedia the day after I launched my nine

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Speaker 2: theses on Wikipedia, so I can't prove anything, but I

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Speaker 2: have a feeling that he had the plans sort of

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Speaker 2: simmering in the background. He said, okay, with with this

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Speaker 2: new you know, attempt at criticism of a reform, we

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Speaker 2: need to actually get on the stick and make a

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Speaker 2: more viable AI based alternative. I actually think Wikipedia does

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Speaker 2: have reason to be worried about Grokipedia, mostly because Elon

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Speaker 2: Musk has the ability to basically include a lot of

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Speaker 2: primary sources that are now basically forbidden on Wikipedia, which

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Speaker 2: means potentially a much longer tail of articles than Wikipedia

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Speaker 2: now has. Wikipedia has become deletionists, which means that they

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Speaker 2: like to get rid of things that are not up

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Speaker 2: to their ideas about what is important. So Grokipedia is,

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Speaker 2: without getting into the details, something that they need to

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Speaker 2: keep their eye on. But the other is all of

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Speaker 2: the other encyclopedias taken as a whole. I call this

425
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: the encyclosphere. And one of the things that my nonprofit

426
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: has done in the last five years or so is

427
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: to collect over sixty encyclopedias, free encyclopedias and put the

428
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 2: content in an open content form, which which means that

429
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: they can be shared in the same way that Wikipedia can,

430
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: but all in a bundle, as it were. So that

431
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: project is called the Encyclosphere, kind of like the blogosphere

432
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: did for blogs. This would this would be the same

433
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: with respect to encyclopedias. It doesn't have to be organized

434
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: as a blogosphere. I actually think though that there are

435
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: other competitors and essentially we just need to get the

436
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: resources and the people behind them. A good example of

437
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: something that is in the the encyclosphere is just Apedia.

438
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: So this was started by a well a person who

439
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 2: is now a friend of mine. She wasn't the first,

440
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: but she is now, and she's a disaffected ex Wikipedia

441
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: knows Wikipedia and how it works very well and said basically,

442
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: this needs to be done better. So I didn't have

443
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: anything to do with just Apedia as such, but I

444
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: was there when it started, and I gave her advice,

445
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: and I think it's got legs. So it's it's actually

446
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: going somewhere.

447
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: So let me ask you when did when did Wikipedia

448
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: really go off the rails. I say this because it's

449
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: pretty clear that one of your well you named it

450
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: Wikipedia as I to stand it. And not only that,

451
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: but you had a rather a clear vision of a

452
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: sort of neutral platform that wouldn't take ideological or philosophical sides,

453
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: that would provide I suppose, information and resources for people

454
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: to think for themselves. All of this appears to have

455
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: gone off the rails at some point if you had

456
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: to sort of trace the point at which maybe's it

457
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: happened over time, But when did you get the feeling that, hey,

458
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: my baby or the the institution I co parented has

459
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: lost its way.

460
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 2: I actually think that it made a gradual decline from

461
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: practically the beginning from two thousand and two it was

462
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: started in two thousand and one, until say two thousand

463
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: and twenty twenty two, when it sort of reached its

464
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: needier Maybe it's even declining even now. I don't know,

465
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: But there are two points in that overall decline where

466
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: it got significantly worse, where I actually noticed significant new

467
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: problems that hadn't been there before. The first was in

468
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: two thousand and five, when for the first time Wikipedia

469
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: was saying in its own voice that global warming was

470
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: a fact, and that it was caused by human being

471
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: and human beings and pollution. And that was something new,

472
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: And I was actually a little shocked, because before that

473
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: the neutrality policy had been strong enough to actually require

474
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: that people not actually say that in Wikipedia's own voice,

475
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: but attribute it to these scientists who make such claims.

476
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: And in the years that followed that, I, as I

477
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 2: like to say, Wikipedia took on the sort of tone

478
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 2: and the position of the BBC or the new York

479
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 2: Times something like that sort of sort of standard establishment,

480
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 2: center left kind of thing. And then what really uh

481
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: made it go off the rails, I think, was when

482
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 2: the mainstream media, which it takes a lot of its

483
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 2: cues from, began to h imitate Fox News and MSNBC

484
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: and and state its views in a sort of commentary

485
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: format and even outright claim that that, you know, Donald

486
00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: Trump has lied and when in the past such claims

487
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: would again be attributed to their owners, Democrats or whoever.

488
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: So Wikipedia started doing the same thing essentially in the

489
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: same way that the mainstream media around the first election

490
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: of Trump and Brexit, when they became radicalized. I would

491
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: say Wikipedia did as well. Now it took its cues,

492
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: as I say, from the mainstream media.

493
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: Now, I think Larry A key difference here that is

494
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: probably worth stressing is that, you know, if The New

495
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: York Times publishes something, everybody knows that's the New York

496
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: Times speaking. In other words. Now, the Times, of course

497
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: has maintained over many years this distinction between the news

498
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: page and the editorial page. And we know that that

499
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: distinction has become greatly eroded, but nevertheless it as a

500
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: big label New York Times. It's a New York Times

501
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: speaking now, I would say the illusion of Wikipedia was,

502
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: or at least its public presentation. We're not doing that.

503
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: We're an open source. People are essentially submitting things. These

504
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 1: things are then sort of presented in a format where

505
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: people can look at them, look at their sources, make

506
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: up their own mind. But isn't it, in fact true

507
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: that Wikipedia has a kind of clearing house of editors

508
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: who play the same role I suppose as the New

509
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: York Times as the BBC, and they go, well, we're

510
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: going to go with this fact and not that fact.

511
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: We're going to leave this in and not that one.

512
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 1: We're going to use this subhead or category and not

513
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,879
Speaker 1: that one. So there is a process of selectivity in Wikipedia.

514
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: But it's maybe camouflage because people think, hey, I'm just

515
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: looking at an encyclopedia. No one's actually making these decisions

516
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: and telling me what to think and how to think.

517
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's doubly camouflage. So, first of all, you're

518
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 2: absolutely right that when people look at Wikipedia, they think

519
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 2: this is an encyclopedia. Therefore I can take what it

520
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 2: says on trust. Jimmie Wials recently wrote a book about

521
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 2: how trust is important in society and cites Wikipedia as

522
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: an example, which to my way of thinking, is actually ironic, right,

523
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 2: because I know how the sausage is made. But here's

524
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: the thing. If you actually go and look at the

525
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 2: talk pages, so the pages that are assigned to each

526
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 2: page on Wikipedia where decisions are made, they it's like

527
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: a discussion form about the article. It will look like

528
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: it's just a bunch of random, anonymous you know, nerds

529
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: debating about minutia of a subject. And there there isn't

530
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 2: any central coordination. How could there be? And and so

531
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: what you're suggesting, they would say is just ridiculous because

532
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 2: it implies a level of central coordination. But here's the thing.

533
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: It is easy to see if you know the players.

534
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 2: In other words, if you actually get on Wikipedia, you

535
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,359
Speaker 2: play the game enough, you get to know the main accounts,

536
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 2: the ones who are basically making the decisions. And there

537
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: are certain circumstances where a decision has to be made

538
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: and then someone will essentially just take it on themselves.

539
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: You can see how these people rather openly are allied

540
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 2: with each other and together they definitely I mean they'll

541
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 2: even announce on their their user pages as they're called

542
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 2: their profiles that they are socialists for example, A lot

543
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: of people do. And uh, it's it's very clear also

544
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 2: to it to my mind. And this is another aspect

545
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: of it that that we don't need to go into

546
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 2: unless you want to. But I think it's it would

547
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: be a mistake on the part of of big corporations

548
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: on governments, intelligence agencies if they didn't have their fingers

549
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: in the pie. Precisely because people sort of respect and

550
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 2: trust Wikipedia. It doesn't cost very much money to like

551
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: pay off editors on Wikipedia. And and of course the

552
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: people on Wikipedia, they're they're anonymous. Eighty five percent of

553
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 2: the most powerful accounts as I did this this tally

554
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: last summer and now was the number. So eighty five

555
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: percent of the most officially powerful accounts on Wikipedia are anonymous.

556
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 2: We don't know who they are. So they could be paid.

557
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: I'm not accusing anyone in particular, but they could be

558
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: paid under the table by any number of entities and

559
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: be lobbying behind the scenes. For all we know, they

560
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: actually have, you know, boardroom meetings in which the marching

561
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,479
Speaker 2: orders are given. I'm not saying that that's the case.

562
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: I don't even strongly suspect that that's the case, but

563
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: that's not it's not off the table. That's what I'm

564
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: trying to say.

565
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: You know, to be hilary as someone who has been

566
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: watching the process of politics, but also the formation of facts.

567
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: You can say, in culture and history. I'm interested in

568
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: the process of sort of how something becomes a fact.

569
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: And I don't mean you know what year you were

570
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: born or me, but something more broad. So, for example,

571
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: take something like the idea that fascism is a phenomenon

572
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 1: of the right, not the left. That's presented as a fact.

573
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you find it as a fact in Wikipedia,

574
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 1: but how did it get to be a fact?

575
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 2: Right?

576
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: So this is kind of my theory of knowledge, if

577
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: you will, and that is that at some time, let's

578
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: just flash back to let's say the nineteen late forties

579
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: or fifties, in the aftermath of fascism becoming discredited. You know,

580
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: have just had World War Two. You start having some

581
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: progressive historians and one of them writes a book making

582
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: the startling claim, I mean startling from the point of

583
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: view of what people said before, that that fascism is

584
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: right wing, even though the fascists saw themselves a socialist. Nevertheless,

585
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: it's not left wing, it's right wing. And then what

586
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: happens is this academic is cited by eight of his

587
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,399
Speaker 1: friends who all declare, this is the most amazing book

588
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: that's ever been published. Everybody needs to read it. This

589
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: isn't an article a review in the New Review of Books.

590
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: And then pretty soon it's on NPR. And then Michael

591
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: Moore comes along and makes a documentary in which fascism

592
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: is right wing. And so what happens is that the

593
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: ordinary guy, you know, is getting the same information from

594
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 1: seven different sources. Now it's not really seven sources, it's

595
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: the same bullet ricocheting off the wall, right. But the

596
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,959
Speaker 1: ordinary guy goes, well, you know, my professor said something

597
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 1: about it, and I was in Barnes and Noble, I

598
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: saw a book about it, and then I was on

599
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: watching TV and it was on the History Channel. And therefore,

600
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: you know, since this has come to me from so

601
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: many different directions, and I don't have the time to

602
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: go check it out myself and read the original documents,

603
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: what are the Mussolini? Was he a Marxist? What was

604
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: the Nazi platform? Since I don't I can't do any

605
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: of that I'm going to sort of take it as

606
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: settled from multiple different sources that his right wing. And

607
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: I think what you're describing in miniature is kind of

608
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: the same thing occurring internally at wikiped.

609
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yes, I think you're you're onto something. I mean,

610
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: we can we can quibble about how actually fascism uh arose.

611
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 2: You know, Jonah Goldberg wrote a well known book about

612
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 2: that very question, and it's liberal fascism. It's very it's

613
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: very good. But without getting into into those details, your

614
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: general point is clearly right. Generally speaking, you can describe

615
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 2: a lot of broad facts in history, philosophy, any theoretical

616
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: discipline as being part of a thought world, right, and

617
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 2: and the thought world is defined by important articles and

618
00:41:55,160 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: academic articles and books. And when when it becomes when

619
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 2: when a certain point of view becomes fashionable, then it

620
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: is repeated in many different sources and takes on a

621
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: kind of factualized quality which doesn't necessarily bear any relationship

622
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 2: to what a pure reason might require, what the objectively

623
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:39,439
Speaker 2: ascertainable truth might be. It's just a reflection of what

624
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 2: traditions or or the latest fashions or trends take to

625
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: be the case. So yeah, there's somebody to change. The example,

626
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 2: like your reputation. You know, you started out I remember

627
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 2: because I like I have I think your very first

628
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 2: book on my shelves somewhere here, and and uh you

629
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 2: were you were this young maverick and who's like taken

630
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 2: very seriously. But then you just kept kept being inconvenient

631
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:26,439
Speaker 2: to the left and and you were successively repainted. Yes,

632
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 2: there there is uh to get back to the point.

633
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:36,399
Speaker 2: Wikipedia plays an important role now today in in this process.

634
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 2: Wikipedia is essentially the summary of what is contained in

635
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 2: as they called them in Wikipedia, the secondary sources, so

636
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: not the primary sources, not your books for example, or

637
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 2: not the original documents written by Hitler and Mussolini and

638
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: so forth, which make it very clear it's their their

639
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:06,399
Speaker 2: socialists or national and socialists. I said, so, no, those

640
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: are not the things that you're supposed to cite on Wikipedia.

641
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 2: You're supposed to cite the secondary sources, in other words,

642
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 2: everything that has written written about those and then that

643
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: actually gives a sense of what is legitimate and can

644
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 2: be trusted. If it's just one person writing a book,

645
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: then it can't really be trusted, is the idea. But

646
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 2: if there are a bunch of other people writing about

647
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,959
Speaker 2: that book. Then then it begins to look credible. That's

648
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 2: the theory of Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources, as they

649
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 2: call it.

650
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: Just for fun, we're going to apply this thesis that

651
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: you've just advanced by looking at a couple at several

652
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 1: examples from Wikipedia. I'm going to start actually with myself,

653
00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: because it's it's a beautiful illustration of your point. The

654
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 1: first of all, I will say that, just for fun,

655
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: I read my description on Wikipedia carefully, and then I

656
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: read Michael Moore's description because people sometimes compare me to

657
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 1: Michael Moore. He's a filmmaker on the left. I'm a

658
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: filmmaker on the right, and the Michael Moore one is

659
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: pretty glowing. You get the idea. This guy's very serious reputables,

660
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: won a lot of awards. There's a throwaway line where

661
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: some people say that his films are propaganda, but Wikipedia

662
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: never goes into how they might be propaganda. And so,

663
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: for example, in one of Michael Moore's films, he's making

664
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: a film about healthcare and he goes down to Cuba

665
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 1: and he's talking about how great the healthcare system is

666
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: over there. Now, he doesn't go to a normal hospital

667
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: where Cubans get healthcare. He goes to one of these

668
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: elite hospitals that's created for the Cuban Communist Party and

669
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: foreign visitors to Cuba, and he shows, oh my gosh,

670
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: these procedures are almost free, and so he gives you

671
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: the idea that this is what Cubans are getting. It's

672
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: blatant propaganda. But there's no mention of any of this

673
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: in Wikipedia. It's just kind of left out of the story.

674
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 1: And of course you can give numerous such examples, but

675
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: I wanted how to turn to Wikipedia's description to me

676
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: right up the front, it says I'm a First of all,

677
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: it says I'm a conspiracy theorist. Now, I thought to myself, yes,

678
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: in two thousand mules, I actually do talk about the

679
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: fact that there's a kind of organized, or at least

680
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: organized at the local level, plot to steal the twenty

681
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: twenty election. We all know that there have been legitimate conspiracies,

682
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: like the Russia collusion hoax was in fact a conspiracy.

683
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: There was a White House meeting about it. There were

684
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 1: COVID conspiracies where people collaborated. We now have the behind

685
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: the scenes talk with Francis Collins and others. We gotta

686
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: spike this guy, we gotta ruin that guy, we gotta

687
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: discredit this guy. So all of this is now known.

688
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: But I thought to myself, I can't think of apart

689
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: from twenty to two thousand meals, I can't think of

690
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: any other quote conspiracy theories that I've advanced, and yet

691
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: none of them are actually named. And as you said,

692
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: they never cite an example from any books saying this

693
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: is an example of Denesh promoting an actual conspiracy. Now

694
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: I will say this. They do say, I'm going to

695
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: quote here. Denesh Desusa has promoted several conspiracy theories, such

696
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: as the false claim that Obama was not born in

697
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: the United States. Now, Larry, you have to take my

698
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 1: word for this. I have never ever said that. And

699
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 1: so I look at the footnote, and the footnote is

700
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:43,479
Speaker 1: some article from the Hill and some other article from

701
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 1: the Week. So apparently somebody else falsely claimed that I

702
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: said that, even though I never did. So. This clear

703
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: false information, but it's got the kind of authoritative footnote.

704
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: So the naive reader thinks, well, he must have said it.

705
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: There's some footnotes here, and then it goes on to say.

706
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: Desuza has also the conspiracy theory that the Clintons had

707
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: murdered people. I have never said that either, but again

708
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: there are a couple of bogus footnotes to lead you

709
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: to believe I did say that. Desuza has also promoted

710
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: false claims about businessman and philanthropist George Soros, including that

711
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: Soros collaborated with the Nazis as a youth, and that

712
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: he has sponsored Antifa, a left wing fascist movement. Now

713
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: both those things are true. Number One, the Soros organizations

714
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: have given money. Now they don't give it straight to Antifa,

715
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: but they give it to nonprofits, who give it to

716
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: nonprofits who give it to Antifa. And then, second of all,

717
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: George Soros, he talks about this in his Steve Croft

718
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 1: interview with sixty Minutes. He goes, when I was fourteen

719
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: years old, I was kind of attached to this guy,

720
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: this Hungarian business guy who was kind of looking after me,

721
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: and the two of us went from Jewish neighborhood to

722
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: Jewish neighborhood, confiscating the property of Jews and turning it

723
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: over to the Nazi affiliated regime. Now again you could say, well,

724
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: sourus was fourteen. You know how much blame can you

725
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: attach to a teenager for being part of all this?

726
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: But it's not that I made it up out of

727
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: whole cloth. So again, what's going on here is a

728
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 1: highly skewed, tendentious, one sided type of polemic, but it's

729
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: masquerading as quote an encyclopedia.

730
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 2: Right. There are a lot of examples like that, and

731
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 2: yours strike me as ones that could be successfully litigated

732
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 2: on the talk page. The problem is, and by talk

733
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 2: page here I mean the discussion page about the d

734
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 2: nch DESUSA article. Well, so I think I think it

735
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: would require a lot of hard work because they'll they'll

736
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 2: just circle the wagons and and uh say, well, uh,

737
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: cite your sources. You'll have to actually have have to

738
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 2: try to prove a negative in some cases. Uh. And

739
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 2: and if you're simply pull out their source and say

740
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: this doesn't say what you say, uh what you say

741
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,879
Speaker 2: it says, then you actually might you might be able

742
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 2: to make some headway. But it would be a lot

743
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 2: of work, and they will not do that work for you.

744
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 2: In other words, I actually think those are deliberate lies,

745
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:54,439
Speaker 2: very very likely. But I mean, well, you know, miss

746
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 2: misrepresenting the facts.

747
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: But Larry, I mean, isn't the burden on them? I

748
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: mean they're saying that I'm saying this, So I'm like,

749
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 1: show me where right. Sometimes I argue with Grok like this,

750
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: because what will happen is that one of the AI

751
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 1: sites will say something, and of course they're relying also

752
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: on public sources. But you can push back. You can say, hey, Grok,

753
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: listen your claiming that I said that Obama was born

754
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 1: in Nairobi? Where do I actually say that? Cite a

755
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 1: primary source please, And then GROC will come back and

756
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: basically confess we can't find it in any of your archive,

757
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: of any of your written materials. It is however, you know,

758
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: so Solon articles said that, and so that's where we

759
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: got it. Okay, we agree, So Grok is actually reasonable.

760
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: You can actually you can conduct a debate with GROC.

761
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: And what you're saying is it's much harder to do

762
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 1: with Wikipedia because it's almost like.

763
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 2: The and it's because GROC is willing to use primary

764
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: sources and Wikipedia is not. In other words, if it

765
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 2: says in a secondary source that you said such and such,

766
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: then as far as they're concerned, that's a fact. And

767
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what you have written, right right, I mean,

768
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 2: that's their stands. So it's really systemic. It's a big problem.

769
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: I turned over to because of the reference I made

770
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: a moment ago to George Soros. I'm just pulling up

771
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: the George Soros entry on Wikipedia, and I just want

772
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,879
Speaker 1: to read you a line here. On one occasion, rather

773
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: than leave the fourteen year old alone, the official took

774
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 1: Soros with him while completing an inventory of a Jewish

775
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: family's confiscated estate. So there's a real attempt here to

776
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: kind of minimize the older guy is going to do

777
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 1: the confiscation. He just didn't want to leave the fourteen

778
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: year old alone. Now, by the way, Soros says none

779
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: of this. Sous actually says he routinely accompanied the guy

780
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: you know, on these confiscation journeys. And then it says

781
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: Soros later wrote that nineteen forty four, this is the

782
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 1: year when he's confiscating the property, had been quote the

783
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: happiest year of his life. Very eerie thing to say,

784
00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: because in fact, Sous goes on to say something like

785
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: he learned a lot from the Nazis, and one of

786
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: them is the importance of good timing. Which he has

787
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 1: then applied to markets. So when you listen to George Soros,

788
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: he sounds like this ammoral monster, but not in Wikipedia.

789
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: It goes I'm gonna just finish up with Wikipedia. And

790
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 1: Soros later wrote that quote nineteen forty four had been

791
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: the happiest year of his life, and then Wikipedia adds

792
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 1: this for it had given him the opportunity to witness

793
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: his father's heroism. This is not even mentioned in the

794
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 1: Steve Croft interview, has nothing to do with why he

795
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: said it was the happiest year of his life, but

796
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: Wikipedia puts it in there, so we all think, oh, wow,

797
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: this is a loyal kid who admires his dad. So

798
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff goes on and on and on.

799
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: I see in the Obama entry, for example, I've written

800
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: two books on Obamas. I'm very familiar with Obama's background.

801
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 1: His background is like beautifully edited by Wikipedia, so all

802
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 1: the inconvenient aspects of it are omitted and Obama's just so,

803
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: for example, is that you know Obama's an attorney, He's

804
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,800
Speaker 1: a constitutional law expert. Now, the truth of it is,

805
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: Obama has never published a scholarly article, not just on

806
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 1: constitutional law, but on any subject. Whatever in any academic

807
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: journal in his life. So the idea that he is

808
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: a constitutional authority and the constitutional law expert is extremely problematic.

809
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, here it is in Wikipedia, and probably most

810
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: people take it for granted. So you know, you have

811
00:54:55,680 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 1: this site that is dense with seemingly factual information, and

812
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: part of what I'm trying to break out, I think

813
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: you agree, is that there is a highly selective and

814
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: polemical project going on. So Wikipedia, in other words, should

815
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: be read skeptically, to put it mildly, and I think

816
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: you are right that it really needs alternatives, because if

817
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 1: you're getting your truth from Wikipedia, even as a starting point,

818
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: it's going to put a lot of people completely on

819
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: the wrong road.

820
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:33,280
Speaker 2: I think that's right. I mean, if if you, Dineche

821
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 2: Desuza were to go on the talk page in order

822
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:42,800
Speaker 2: to raise all of these questions, given your level of

823
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 2: knowledge and your ability to actually cite the relevant sources,

824
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 2: you or a confederate somebody who knows as much as

825
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 2: you do, you actually might be able to make some headway.

826
00:55:55,719 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 2: So this is something that I've been I've been trying

827
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 2: to tell people for the last six or nine months.

828
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 2: It's actually important that we realize that Wikipedia can be changed.

829
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 2: It's hard to change because the left is very dominant

830
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 2: in Wikipedia, which which explains why there are all of

831
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: these problems of the sort that you raise. But they

832
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 2: are constrained by their own rules, and their own rules

833
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 2: demand that they pay attention to citations that you can

834
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 2: bring to bear, And especially if you've got more than

835
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 2: one person. If if it's just one person making noise,

836
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 2: then then that person can probably be shut down regardless

837
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 2: of what he says. But if you've got several people,

838
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 2: you've got like a group of people converging, then it

839
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:57,800
Speaker 2: can you can make a difference.

840
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you're saying something really I think very

841
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,919
Speaker 1: practical here, Larry, which is that you know, I think

842
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: the reason they get away with this stuff is, you know,

843
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: Elon Musk is really busy. I'm really busy. You are where,

844
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 1: We've got projects all day, so we can't possibly sit

845
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: down and spend you know, four hours a day, let's say,

846
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: composing these critiques of Wikipedia. But it could well be

847
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 1: that there is room for some sort of a Wikicheck,

848
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 1: and by that I mean the little consortium of people,

849
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: maybe on the conservative side, who pull up hundreds of

850
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: these Wikipedia entres, particularly of prominent figures and prominent ideas,

851
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: and just essentially become a barrage of factual questioning of Wikipedia.

852
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 1: And you're saying that that that's not maybe going to

853
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: transform Wikipedia or make Wikipedia convert, but it's you're saying

854
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: it could actually break through and get Wikipedia to make

855
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: some fixes.

856
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 2: I think the number of people who are actively at

857
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 2: work on Wikipedia is smaller than you might expect.

858
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 1: You.

859
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 2: They what they say in their own propaganda about themselves

860
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 2: is that they've got millions and millions of contributors. And

861
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 2: that's true if you count as a contributor somebody who

862
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 2: has made an edit some point. How but you have

863
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 2: made an edit on Wikipedia at some point, so they

864
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 2: would count you as a Wikipedian then, or as a

865
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: Wikipedia editor, but but you're not. Really. The number of

866
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 2: people who are are editing Wikipedia as basically part time

867
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 2: or or more is in the hundreds, low thousands at most.

868
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 2: All right, So if there were a ground swell of conservatives, libertarians, Hindus,

869
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 2: there's all kinds of disaffected people who who are are

870
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 2: badly treated by Wikipedia. So I actually am and am

871
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 2: working on developing a project which I'm going to call

872
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 2: wiki project intellectual diversity on Wikipedia itself. Okay, so they

873
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 2: have on Wikipedia these things called wiki projects, and and

874
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 2: so the idea is, there's there's nothing wrong with organizing

875
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 2: people on Wikipedia to deal with the systemic problems of

876
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 2: Wikipedia's policies that enable one point of view to dominate

877
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: over all others. And that's essentially what Wikipedia's policies. Now

878
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 2: do they actually have closed off the exits. So your

879
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 2: your idea that that there be behind the scenes collusion

880
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 2: to edit Wikipedia. Now there's nothing illegal about that exactly.

881
00:59:55,160 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 2: But if it were discovered by Wikipedia and you they

882
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 2: were able to associate participant names with Wikipedia accounts, those

883
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 2: accounts would be immediately gone because of a rule against

884
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 2: what's called canvassing. So canvassing isn't like drumming up votes,

885
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 2: although it can mean that it's it's broader. It's just

886
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 2: like any off wiki organization to pushing people to vote

887
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 2: or to make edits in a certain way. So, and

888
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 2: it's very clear by the way that at least it's

889
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 2: clear to me that a lot of the people who

890
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 2: are responsible for the shocking absurdities that you have have

891
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 2: you know, listed in these articles that those people have

892
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 2: been colluding off wiki. They have their own back channels, right,

893
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 2: but they make it hard. They're very good at it,

894
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 2: I think, and they make it very hard to discover.

895
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: So do with that as you will, Larry, let's close

896
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: out on a kind of a little more maybe grandiose note.

897
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 1: Elon Musk recently talked about the enormous changes for the

898
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: good that are around the corner, a kind of mass

899
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 1: abundance of a kind where robots are building homes, and

900
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 1: robots are building other robots that build homes, and home

901
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: prices which are now seven hundred thousand dollars might come

902
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 1: down to a fraction of that, and that people will

903
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 1: start enjoying the type of abundance that they that they

904
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:47,000
Speaker 1: could maybe not have envisioned even just a few years ago.

905
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 1: I think of this as in some ways he's announcing

906
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,240
Speaker 1: the end of I'll call it the the Adamic or

907
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: Adam project, because of course God says to Adam, you know,

908
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: now you've got to go out into the world by

909
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: the sweat of your brow. You need to make bread.

910
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 1: And I think we've been sort of at it now

911
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: for thousands and thousands of years, and an escense Elon

912
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 1: Musk is saying that that age that a damic project

913
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 1: might be coming to an end. I just thought that

914
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:21,200
Speaker 1: we'd perhaps close out with asking you to reflect and

915
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:26,320
Speaker 1: comment on this astounding assertion by Elon, who has proven

916
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: very visionary in so many areas well.

917
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 2: It's really remarkable, and I noticed when he said it.

918
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 2: You know, economists have things to say about this sort

919
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 2: of You know, if there is an incredible amount of abundance,

920
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 2: then indeed the price does come down, but then there's

921
01:02:55,200 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 2: still competition in other areas, so then some things, other

922
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 2: things become more expensive. My my worry doesn't actually concern

923
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 2: the the ultimate consequences, but what would have to be

924
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 2: the case in order for Elon's vision to to occur

925
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 2: at all? In other words, if indeed there are robots

926
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 2: that are going out and doing all our farming for us, well,

927
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 2: what does that mean? Does that mean that all the

928
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 2: farmers are going to be able to afford robots? Or

929
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:41,040
Speaker 2: are the farms going to be seized? Surely not that? Okay,

930
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 2: then they're they're going to be purchased, I suppose by

931
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 2: cooperations that can afford the robots, or or is the

932
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 2: notion that the robots are always going to be cheap

933
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 2: enough that anyone can afford one. There's a lot of

934
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 2: questions like this that that need to be thought through,

935
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 2: and I don't know what the answers are. I mean,

936
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 2: for me that the big question here is, all right,

937
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 2: let's suppose that it is possible. I don't even know

938
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 2: that this is true, but let's suppose there's possible that

939
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 2: there will be robots that are are smart and tough

940
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 2: enough to day in day out serve as farmers. Let's

941
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 2: let's just suppose that's true. Then how much does it

942
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 2: cost to build one? And at what point will it

943
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 2: be the case that that robots are are talented enough

944
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 2: to build other robots, Because after all, it's one thing

945
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 2: to be a farmer and it's another thing to build

946
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 2: a robot, and presumably that the latter is harder. U.

947
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 2: So I think it's it's the jury is out as

948
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 2: to whether it's even possible. And if it is possible,

949
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 2: then it might turn out to be the case that

950
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 2: the technology, this robot technology will only ever be affordable

951
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 2: by super rich corporations and governments. And if that's the case,

952
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 2: then they would then be able to outcompete all the

953
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 2: human beings, and then that's that's what they say, right,

954
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 2: they be cheaper than all the human beings, but only

955
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 2: governments and corporations would be able to afford them. All right, Well,

956
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:42,360
Speaker 2: if that's the case, then then in order for me

957
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 2: to be able to eat, I wouldn't be able to

958
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 2: sustain myself by my own labor, because there would always

959
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:51,919
Speaker 2: be a cheaper robot to do it. Okay, if that's

960
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 2: if that's really true, then basically I'm at the mercy

961
01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 2: of the giant corporations and governments. And this then becomes

962
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 2: an assertion that essentially the most wealthy among us will

963
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 2: be in charge of whether we can eat or not,

964
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 2: which is a kind of power they've never really had

965
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 2: before except at the edge of a sword. Right, So

966
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 2: it's interesting, Yeah, very well.

967
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 1: I think that's a very necessary and kind of sobering

968
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 1: commentary on all of this, Larry Sanger. I really enjoyed this,

969
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: and I want to thank you very.

970
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 2: Much, thank you Dinish for having me.

971
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 1: There's something big Americans keep forgetting about. Behind the new cycles,

972
01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 1: behind the tariff wars, the conflicts, the ice rates here

973
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 1: at home, behind all of this, there's an uncomfortable truth

974
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: we all need to admit we now have nearly thirty

975
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 1: nine trillion dollars in debt. Thirty ninth brillion, a ticking

976
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 1: time bomb that could decimate our economy. That's over three

977
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty five thousand dollars per US taxpayer. So

978
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,800
Speaker 1: I want you to ask yourself, am I truly protected

979
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: from this pending disaster? If not, I want you to

980
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,200
Speaker 1: reach out to my partners over at gold Co. Gold

981
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 1: Co is the number one gold and silver company in

982
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 1: the business, and thousands of Americans are using gold Coat

983
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: to hedge their wrists. So get your free twenty twenty

984
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 1: six Gold and Silver Guide and learn how you could

985
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 1: get ten percent in bonus gold or silver while supplies last.

986
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 1: Go to Dinesh goold dot com. That's Dinesh gold dot com. Hey,

987
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:47,680
Speaker 1: I'm now on substack. It's kind of full circle for me.

988
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: I started out as a journalist, writing articles for National Review,

989
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 1: the American Spectator, the Washington Post, lots of places. After

990
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 1: my stint in the Reagan White House, I pivoted to

991
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 1: writing books, and that was way back in nineteen so

992
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: I've been mainly known as an author and of course

993
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 1: later as a filmmaker, but my first job journalist and

994
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 1: now I'm getting back to that. On substack, you'll get

995
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:16,639
Speaker 1: original articles and commentary, groundbreaking investigations, exclusive access to film

996
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 1: clips and show clips, and guess what, it's free. So

997
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:24,599
Speaker 1: check it out. Go to Dinesh Desuza dot substack dot com.

998
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 1: Is the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. The revival

999
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 1: of an ancient conflict recorded in the Bible.

1000
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 2: The nation of Israel is a resurrected nation. What if

1001
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,719
Speaker 2: there was going to be a resurrection of another people,

1002
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 2: an enemy people of Israel?

1003
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:50,759
Speaker 1: The Dragon's Prophecy