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Speaker 1: I think this topic needs more attention because it gets

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Speaker 1: at the issue of not just what the Bible is,

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Speaker 1: but it gets at how the Bible functions.

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Speaker 2: There's probably a lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings of what

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Speaker 2: sola scriptura means. So define it for us.

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Speaker 3: If you will.

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Speaker 1: Sola scriptura is not the Bible is my only authority.

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Speaker 1: Sola scriptura is that the Bible is the highest authority.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing above it. There are other authorities we should consider,

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Speaker 1: other factors that should play into our understanding of things.

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Speaker 1: But the Bible is the ultimate standard. Why is it

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Speaker 1: the ultimate standard? Because it's the only infallible standard. And

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Speaker 1: every other standard has the possibility of error.

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Speaker 2: What is sola scriptura? Why is it so important and

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Speaker 2: why should all followers of Jesus embrace it? Michael Kruger,

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Speaker 2: I can't think of anybody more qualified to weigh in

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Speaker 2: and talk about this because of your study of the

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Speaker 2: second century. You're studying the New Testament. You just gave

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Speaker 2: a lecture to the Biola Talbot faculty yesterday about soul scriptura.

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Speaker 2: Why are you interested in this topic?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so central.

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Speaker 1: I mean, anybody interested in the doctrine of scripture often

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Speaker 1: talks about issues like inspiration and inerrancy, and that's great.

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Speaker 1: those topics need to be addressed. But I think this

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Speaker 1: topic needs more attention because it gets at the issue

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Speaker 1: of not just what the Bible is, but it gets

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Speaker 1: at how the Bible functions.

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Speaker 3: And that's a different question.

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Speaker 1: Now, I'll argue that how it functions flows from what

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Speaker 1: it is, but solo scriptura really gets at the heartbeat

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Speaker 1: of what do we do with the Bible once we

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Speaker 1: have it?

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Speaker 3: How is it supposed to operate in our lives?

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Speaker 1: And most people associate solo scriptura with a narrow Reformation issue.

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Speaker 1: I want to suggest it's bigger than that. I think

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Speaker 1: it guards against many more things than what we think.

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Speaker 3: Okay, good.

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Speaker 2: So let's define it, because right away there's probably a

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Speaker 2: lot of misconceptions and misunderstandings of what sola scriptura means.

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Speaker 2: So define it for us, if you will.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, in this context, just real briefly, people hear

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Speaker 1: the term sola only, and they think, well, that must

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Speaker 1: mean that the Bible's my only authority. It's the only

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Speaker 1: thing I ever consider. It's the only thing I ever

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Speaker 1: look at. So I don't need to consider creeds. I

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Speaker 1: don't need to consider I don't have to consider the

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Speaker 1: history of the church. It's just me and my Bible

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Speaker 1: under a tree somewhere. So that kind of idea often

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Speaker 1: sort of is a misunderstanding of sola scriptura. People think

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Speaker 1: sola scriptura just means that I have the Bible alone

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Speaker 1: as the only thing I ever think about. And I

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Speaker 1: want to suggest that's really not what the definition is.

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Speaker 1: Sola scriptura is not the Bible is my only authority

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Speaker 1: or the only thing I consider. Sola scriptura is that

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Speaker 1: the Bible is the highest authority. There's nothing above it.

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Speaker 1: There are other authorities we should consider, other factors that

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Speaker 1: should play into our understanding of things, but the Bible

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Speaker 1: is the ultimate standard.

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Speaker 3: Why is it the ultimate standard?

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Speaker 1: Because it's the only infallible standard, and every other standard

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Speaker 1: has the possibility of erring. So it's not saying the

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Speaker 1: Bible is the only thing we consider or that the

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Speaker 1: Bible is the only thing we have.

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Speaker 3: It's saying the Bible is the ultimate standard for all

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Speaker 3: that we do.

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Speaker 2: So here's the definition. I think I wrote it down

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Speaker 2: carefully from what you said yesterday. Correct me if it's wrong,

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Speaker 2: but Scripture alone is the word of God and therefore

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Speaker 2: the only infallible rule for life and doctrine. Yes.

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Speaker 3: Is that correct? That sounds right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So notice it's for life and it's for doctrine, not

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Speaker 2: for science, not for history. None of that is thrown

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Speaker 2: in here. Why would that not be included in this

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Speaker 2: kind of definition?

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Speaker 3: Actually included implicitly.

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Speaker 1: When I say life and doctrine, that is decidedly not

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Speaker 1: an attempt to separate life between the secular and the sacred.

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Speaker 1: In fact, as I said in the lecture yesterday, and

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Speaker 1: of course I know you were there, I made it

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Speaker 1: very plain that when we talk about the Bible being

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Speaker 1: the ultimate authority, it's the ultimate authority over everything, not

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Speaker 1: just theology, not just church, not just our little idea

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Speaker 1: of what a Christian life is. It's over how we

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Speaker 1: think about business and economics and the arts and sports

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Speaker 1: and medicine. It's over all disciplines. Now, As I also qualify,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it speaks to all disciplines in the

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Speaker 1: same way. To say the Bible is our highest authority

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean it teaches me how to build a bridge

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Speaker 1: or how to do quantum physics or what makes a

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Speaker 1: good pick in my stock portfolio. But I would say

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Speaker 1: the scriptures still are the foundation for how we think

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Speaker 1: about those things. And the scriptures at least have implicit

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Speaker 1: influence on those things because it lays the foundation for

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Speaker 1: why they're intelligible. So the Bible is over all things,

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Speaker 1: but not over all things in the same.

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Speaker 3: Way, of course.

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Speaker 2: So what other authorities then do you think Christians should

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Speaker 2: have and would Protestants point towards? And how would you

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Speaker 2: compare them to Scripture as being the ultimate authority?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so one of the ideas that I think soul

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Speaker 1: of Scripture guards against is what I would call individualism, okay?

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Speaker 1: And individualism is this idea that whenever I think about

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Speaker 1: how to understand the Bible or use the Bible in

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Speaker 1: my life, that I just simply sit under a tree

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Speaker 1: somewhere with the Bible. I never consider what my pastor says,

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Speaker 1: never consider what church history says, never consider what other

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Speaker 1: interpreters have said. It's just me starting from scratch. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, there's people who actually say that they

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Speaker 1: do this. They want this to be the way they

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Speaker 1: do it, and they think that's what Sola Scriptura requires

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Speaker 1: of them. I want to suggest that that leaves out

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Speaker 1: a massive amount of things in our life that we

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Speaker 1: should consider. And I also would point out that the

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Speaker 1: Reformers did not see it that way when they articulated

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Speaker 1: Sola Scriptura in the early centuries of the Reformation. You know,

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Speaker 1: this idea that that the reformers were anti-church is not true.

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Speaker 1: They were citing the church fathers all the time in

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Speaker 1: defense of what they believed. They were just simply saying

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Speaker 1: the church had lost its way. And so we ought

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Speaker 1: to care what the church historically has said. We ought

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Speaker 1: to care about the major creeds and confessions. Those ought

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Speaker 1: to be significant guides. So when we talk about other authorities,

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Speaker 1: I would say those are all key influences on us.

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Speaker 1: But they never trump scripture, right? So no creed is scripture.

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Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean I don't care what the church

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Speaker 3: has said for generations about things.

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Speaker 1: So I want to take into consideration the Nicene Creed,

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Speaker 1: the Chalcedonian Creed, and beyond that as a way of

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Speaker 1: saying that I'm not.

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Speaker 3: The first to ever look at the Bible.

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Speaker 1: The other thing it guards against is the idea of

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Speaker 1: original doctrine. So, you know, someone goes, I've now discovered

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Speaker 1: a new doctrine that no one ever knew about before.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, no, that's, no, right?

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Speaker 1: You know, there's not this idea of sort of, sort

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Speaker 1: of innovation now. We want to be happy to be

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Speaker 1: unoriginal in our theology.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting to hear you say that because I sat through, gosh,

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Speaker 2: three chapels a week here at Biola for four years.

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Speaker 2: And there's a few chapels that stand out. John Mark

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Speaker 2: Reynolds gave a chapel. I don't remember what year it was.

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Speaker 2: And he was like, basically emphasizing, don't be original. Don't

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Speaker 2: come up with new ideas. Your job is to faithfully

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Speaker 2: and creatively pass on the truths that have been passed

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Speaker 2: on to you. And that just stuck So when it

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Speaker 2: comes to spiritual– our spiritual life when it comes to

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Speaker 2: the scriptures, scripture alone is the authority. But when I'm

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Speaker 2: going to interpret the authority, I better look at what

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Speaker 2: the church fathers have said. I better look at what

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Speaker 2: scholars say. But ultimately the authority is in the scripture itself.

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Speaker 2: What about things like science? That's a kind of authority,

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Speaker 2: a way we can know things about the world that

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Speaker 2: at points may intersect with the scriptures. Right. How would

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Speaker 2: soul scripture say we look at things like history and

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Speaker 2: science and other disciplines?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is where we want to realize we

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Speaker 1: want to have a robust doctrine of general revelation, right?

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Speaker 1: God reveals himself in the book of scripture and in

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Speaker 1: the book of creation. And whatever is true about creation

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Speaker 1: is true, and it can help adjust our interpretations of scripture.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes scripture helps us interpret the world. So these

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Speaker 1: two cross-pollinate. Now, as you know, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: complications there. There's a lot of layers to that. and

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Speaker 1: people get very nervous, and we say natural revelation can

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Speaker 1: correct our understanding of the Scripture, as if it's over

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Speaker 1: the Bible.

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Speaker 3: No, because it's God's revelation.

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Speaker 1: So if I think I'm understanding the world in a

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Speaker 1: certain way, you could look at a passage, just this

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Speaker 1: classic example, of course, of Galileo, that when the sun rises,

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Speaker 1: it means that the earth is the center of the

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Speaker 1: solar system. But no, it turns out the sun is,

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Speaker 1: and I have to use natural revelation to help correct

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Speaker 1: my interpretation of the Bible. That's entirely legitimate. At the

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Speaker 1: same time, we also have to be very careful. Because

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Speaker 1: when we look at the facts in the world, so

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Speaker 1: to speak, sometimes we take what people are saying are

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Speaker 1: the facts of the world that may not actually be

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Speaker 1: the facts of the world, and we're letting those overturn

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Speaker 1: plain teachings of Scripture.

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Speaker 3: And we want to make sure that, of course, doesn't happen. Good.

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Speaker 2: That's a helpful way to look at it. Does the

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Speaker 2: Bible teach soul scriptura? Because sometimes people object, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: the word Trinity is not in the Bible. Well, the

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Speaker 2: word Bible, I don't think is in the Bible, if

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Speaker 2: I'm not mistaken.

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Speaker 1: Well, the term tabiblia is the book, but you're right.

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Speaker 1: The term Bible is not in the way we use

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Speaker 1: it in the Bible.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So where does it come from? Why should we embrace

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Speaker 2: it in terms of the Christian faith? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, so many places we could get into in terms

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Speaker 1: of where we get soul scripture from, from the scriptures.

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Speaker 1: certainly the word of God as being the ultimate standard

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Speaker 1: for anything is built into the scriptural witness, right? There's

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Speaker 1: no higher authority than God. So obviously God's word is

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Speaker 1: the higher authority. The question is where you get God's word, right?

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Speaker 1: Obviously in prior generations, we acknowledge biblical generations, you could

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Speaker 1: get God's word through the live revelation given to prophets

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Speaker 1: that the apostles are speaking right there, standing in front

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Speaker 1: of you, God's word effectively. But the question is, do

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Speaker 1: we have those features now? Or we have prophets and

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Speaker 1: apostles today speaking that way. Obviously, we would argue from

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Speaker 1: the Bible we don't. So the only place you have

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Speaker 1: access to God's word is in the scriptures. The other

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Speaker 1: thing I would say, though, about sola scriptura and where

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Speaker 1: you get it from is I would argue it's downstream

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Speaker 1: from other doctrines. So I think it flows naturally from

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Speaker 1: the doctrine of inspiration and actually from the doctrine of inerrancy.

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Speaker 1: And I know those two overlap a lot in people's minds, understandably.

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Speaker 1: But inspiration is just simply saying that when we have

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Speaker 1: the words of the Bible, we have the words of God.

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Speaker 1: Inerrancy is simply saying that when I have the teachings

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Speaker 1: of the Bible, I have teachings.

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Speaker 3: That are true. They're not false. They're not in error.

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Speaker 1: Both those things feed into the doctrine of sola scriptura. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: why is scripture alone our highest authority? Because it's God.

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Speaker 1: What could be higher than God, right? So obviously, if

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Speaker 1: we believe in inspiration, then we have scripture as our

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Speaker 1: highest authority. But inerrancy also plays a role. Why is

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Speaker 1: scripture our highest authority? Because it's the only thing we

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Speaker 1: have access to that doesn't err. Church councils can err.

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Speaker 1: You know, humans can err. People can make mistakes. The

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Speaker 1: scripture doesn't have that. So it flows downstream from inspiration

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Speaker 1: and inerrancy. And if you don't have inspiration and inerrancy,

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Speaker 1: so scripture is not going to make sense.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so this is not answering the question of which

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Speaker 2: scriptures are inerrant and inspired. That would be a separate conversation.

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Speaker 2: But soul scripture is saying if something is scripture, it

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Speaker 2: is the highest authority. The canon question may be differences

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Speaker 2: with Roman Catholics and Orthodox. That's a separate question from

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Speaker 2: soul scripture itself.

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Speaker 3: It is, but a very important separate question. Agreed. Yes.

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Speaker 1: So, yes, you want to distinguish those two questions in

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Speaker 1: terms of the conversation you're having with somebody and, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about this, not that.

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Speaker 3: But eventually you're going to have to get to the that.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Which is if we're going to.

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Speaker 1: Say solo scriptura and we're going to say scriptures are

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Speaker 1: high standard, then the next question is, well, as you noted, is, well,

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Speaker 1: which books are scripture? Unless we can answer that intelligibly,

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Speaker 1: you have no solo scriptura. And this is why the

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Speaker 1: Protestant world needs to have a very robust understanding of canon. And,

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Speaker 1: of course, you know that's one of my main areas.

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Speaker 1: Why do I care about canon? Because if you can't

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Speaker 1: establish which books are from God, then their function doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Why do we care about the function of a book

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Speaker 1: if I don't even know which books are from God?

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Speaker 3: You can't have a doctrine of Scripture without a Scripture

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Speaker 3: to use. And so canon really matters.

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Speaker 2: Okay, if we have time, we can circle back to

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Speaker 2: that question. We want to get through some myths about

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Speaker 2: soul scripture.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: But in some ways, if I understand the argument, what

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Speaker 2: you're saying is scripture is the word of God. It's

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Speaker 2: God breathed. Yes. And we all get this from our

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Speaker 2: Jewish heritage that when God speaks, it carries authority with

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Speaker 2: it by its very nature and the highest authority. And

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Speaker 2: you gave an illustration essay I thought was great about

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Speaker 2: when somebody swears on the Bible. Explain that and tie

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Speaker 2: it to why God would be the highest authority.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so one of the things that people often don't

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Speaker 1: realize about ultimate authorities or highest authorities is that by

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Speaker 1: definition they have to be self-authenticating.

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Speaker 3: What do we mean by that?

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Speaker 1: What do we mean by that is that we establish

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Speaker 1: ultimate authorities on themselves because if we didn't, they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be an ultimate authority. So they have to be in

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Speaker 1: some sense self-referential, okay? And that's different than how we

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Speaker 1: establish other truths, right? Lots of times when we establish

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Speaker 1: a certain proposition, we just say, I believe in proposition

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Speaker 1: A because I believe that it's confirmed by proposition B, right?

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Speaker 1: But when it comes to an ultimate authority, obviously it's

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Speaker 1: somewhat self-referential. And so the analogy I gave was how

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Speaker 1: we swear in a court of law. You put your

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Speaker 1: hand on the Bible and you say, I swear to

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Speaker 1: tell the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so.

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Speaker 3: Help me God. Why do we do that? It's obviously

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Speaker 3: a symbolic act.

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Speaker 1: But we do it by saying, I'm going to appeal

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Speaker 1: to a higher authority than me for the truth of

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I'm relying on something else. And the

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Speaker 1: issue I brought up was, what would happen if God swore?

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Speaker 1: Who would he swear by? And it really highlights the

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Speaker 1: issue because it seems how silly it would be if

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Speaker 1: God swore by something other than himself because you realize, well,

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Speaker 1: you're missing the point because it has to be something,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's nowhere higher for God to go. So

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Speaker 1: he ends up having to swear by himself, which sounds

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Speaker 1: like a weird phrase to us. How do you swear

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Speaker 1: by yourself? Well, we don't get to do that. God

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Speaker 1: gets to do that. He's our highest authority. So built

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Speaker 1: into sola scriptura is, in my opinion, is a self-authenticating

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Speaker 1: nature of scripture.

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Speaker 3: They go hand in hand. The Bible's highest authority, by definition,

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Speaker 3: has to be self-authenticating.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so why do you not believe that there's living

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Speaker 2: prophets today that speak truth? Would this be going to

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Speaker 2: the Hebrews 1 passage, or why would you explain that?

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Speaker 2: And why couldn't there be prophets that still speak, but

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Speaker 2: are just below Scripture on some level?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a massive topic, and a complicated one.

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Speaker 1: And I have a number of good colleagues and friends

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Speaker 1: around that have different views on this than me, and

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Speaker 1: I want to be very generous about it and careful

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Speaker 1: with those different views out there. What I want to

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Speaker 1: protect is this idea of something coming up alongside in

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Speaker 1: the modern day competing with Scripture as our ultimate authority,

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Speaker 1: or maybe even, God forbid, trumping Scripture, okay?

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Speaker 3: So in as much as we could say that God leads,

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Speaker 3: God leads.

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Speaker 1: And some people even use the term God speaks today

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Speaker 1: in such a way that he's blessing his church and

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Speaker 1: leading his people and so forth. And as long as

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Speaker 1: that is preserved under scripture, then I think there's a

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Speaker 1: good bit of flexibility there that I'd want to allow

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Speaker 1: for the way people are interacting with God and feel

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Speaker 1: like God is leading them.

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Speaker 3: Now, I know that some people push it further than that.

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Speaker 1: And some want to say, no, we have modern day

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Speaker 1: prophets just like Isaiah, just like Elijah. We have modern

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Speaker 1: day apostles just like Paul and Peter. Well, I'd have

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Speaker 1: to say I'm not there. I feel like that's crossing

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Speaker 1: over a biblical line. Why do we think that we

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Speaker 1: don't have apostles today in the way we did in

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Speaker 1: the first century? Well, part of the reason is because

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Speaker 1: of what constituted someone who was an apostle. To be

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Speaker 1: an apostle in the first century, you had to have

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Speaker 1: seen the risen Lord. Jesus had a resurrection appearance to you.

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Speaker 3: And so.

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Speaker 1: You don't see any evidence that that is something that's

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Speaker 1: a perpetual office. In fact, not only is it out

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Speaker 1: of sync with the New Testament as a perpetual office,

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Speaker 1: but when we get into the second century, for example,

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Speaker 1: which I've done a good bit of work on the

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Speaker 1: second century, we don't see the second century church fathers

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Speaker 1: looking at each other as fellow apostles or that there's

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Speaker 1: apostles in their day or that there's still people around

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Speaker 1: who can speak that way.

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Speaker 3: On the contrary, it's all retrospective. They're always looking.

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Speaker 1: Back to the age of the apostles, and that shows

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Speaker 1: you they view the apostles as having an authority that's

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Speaker 1: not repeatable.

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Speaker 2: And of course, when Matthias is selected to replace Judas,

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Speaker 2: he was with Jesus the whole time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Seen the risen Lord.

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Speaker 3: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: First Corinthians nine, Paul says, am I not an apostle?

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Speaker 2: Have I not seen the risen Lord? Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Okay. Fair enough.

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Speaker 2: So in some ways, just to make sure that I

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Speaker 2: tie this together, soul scripture is downstream from inspiration and inerrancy.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you don't have a robust doctrine of

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Speaker 1: inspiration and inerrancy, sola scriptura is going to seem nonsensical.

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Speaker 3: Think of it this way.

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Speaker 1: If the Bible is not infallible, if the Bible can

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Speaker 1: make mistakes, then sola scriptura doesn't make any sense because.

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Speaker 3: It can err and I can err. The Bible makes mistakes.

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Speaker 3: Church councils make mistakes.

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Speaker 1: Now you're on an equal playing field where it makes

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Speaker 1: no sense to elevate one over the other. The only

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Speaker 1: reason you elevate scripture over other things is if you

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Speaker 1: think scripture is distinctive in some way in terms of

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Speaker 1: its authority. One of the ways it's distinctive in its

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Speaker 1: authority is it speaks for God in a way that

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Speaker 1: doesn't err.

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Speaker 2: And to at least two lines of reason I can

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Speaker 2: think of is, number one, that you laid out, that

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Speaker 2: if God speaks and he's the highest authority, what God

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Speaker 2: says necessarily is the highest authority.

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Speaker 3: Correct.

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Speaker 2: But then we have the followers after the apostles themselves

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Speaker 2: looking back, using the text as if it's the highest authority.

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Speaker 2: And it's inspired. So we kind of have a historical

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Speaker 2: argument for it.

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Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And a theological argument.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Actually, the historical argument for Sola Scriptura is really strong.

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Speaker 1: and the way that the Scriptures functioned in the early

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Speaker 1: church functioned in a way that no one was trying

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Speaker 1: to compete with it as an equal authority to Scripture.

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Speaker 1: Sort of the later ideas of papal authority competing with

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Speaker 1: Scripture was so much further downstream and distanced from those

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Speaker 1: early centuries. When we go back to those early centuries,

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Speaker 1: we can see a really robust distinction between present-day ecclesiastical

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Speaker 1: pronouncements and Scripture. Scripture was always over it.

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Speaker 3: That's amazing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, now I know some people are thinking this is

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Speaker 2: a Protestant doctrine that came in the Reformation. We'll circle

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Speaker 2: back to that. But yesterday you gave three things to

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Speaker 2: protect against. Yes. And you described how I like the

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Speaker 2: way you worded it. You said, and correct me if

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Speaker 2: I'm wrong, that soul scripture guards us against the tendency

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Speaker 2: of the human heart to set up authorities instead of

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Speaker 2: God's word. And the quote of our hearts are idle factories.

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Speaker 2: And then you gave three. that I think are fascinating.

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Speaker 2: The first one seems the most obvious, but you said

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Speaker 2: Sola Scriptura guards against traditionalism. Yes. And what do you

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Speaker 2: mean by traditionalism, and how does Sola Scriptura guard against that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so one of the things I really wanted to

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Speaker 1: highlight in the lecture, and you captured it well, is

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Speaker 1: that Sola Scriptura is protecting us against more than we think.

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Speaker 1: But there's still the most obvious thing it's protecting us from,

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Speaker 1: in its historical context at least, which is traditionalism. traditionalism

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Speaker 1: is essentially raising church practices, church teachings, church ideas up

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Speaker 1: to the level of Scripture so that under the heading

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Speaker 1: of we've always done it this way, we've always thought

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Speaker 1: this way, this is the way we've done it for generations,

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Speaker 1: now is on par with Scripture in such a way

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Speaker 1: that it can trumpet and conflict with it. Obviously, in

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Speaker 1: the days of the Reformation, the Roman Catholic Church was

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Speaker 1: the example of traditionalism. That's not surprising that they had

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Speaker 1: basically taken the teachings of the Church and elevated them

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Speaker 1: alongside Scripture. which allowed them to come up with doctrines

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Speaker 1: like purgatory and certain doctrines of Mary and so on.

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Speaker 1: The reformers said, wait a second, you're getting these doctrines

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Speaker 1: from places outside of Scripture.

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Speaker 3: And you shouldn't have anything binding us other than Scripture.

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Speaker 1: Now, one of the big takeaways of that reality of

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Speaker 1: guarding against traditionalism is a recognition that we're not done

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Speaker 1: with traditionalism even within Protestantism. And Protestants have their own

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Speaker 1: version of traditionalism. And the idea that, well, we're so

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Speaker 1: glad we're not like the people back in the days

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Speaker 1: of the Reformation.

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Speaker 3: No, we are.

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Speaker 1: You know, anybody who's been in church for more than

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Speaker 1: about one month knows that churches have their own versions

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Speaker 1: of traditionalism and man-made rules. So the point of sola

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Speaker 1: scriptura is that no one gets to bind your conscience

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Speaker 1: but God.

439
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:44,250
Speaker 3: So it is a— sola.

440
00:19:43,230 --> 00:19:46,150
Speaker 1: Scriptura is the protection of Christian liberty. What you think

441
00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:48,890
Speaker 1: and what you do, only God can tell you that,

442
00:19:49,150 --> 00:19:52,300
Speaker 1: not just human beings. And so churches have authority, yes,

443
00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:54,080
Speaker 1: but they only have authority in as much as they're

444
00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:56,300
Speaker 1: submitting themselves to God's word. They don't get to trump

445
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,139
Speaker 1: God's word. They don't get to be over you in

446
00:19:58,180 --> 00:19:59,480
Speaker 1: a way that makes them a little God.

447
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 2: Okay, so this idea was new to me that you

448
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 2: said yesterday, that you said soul scriptura protects Christian liberty. Yes.

449
00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:10,909
Speaker 2: I think many people, including— Many, probably Protestants and other

450
00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:14,350
Speaker 2: Christians would feel like, okay, wait a minute. If this

451
00:20:14,430 --> 00:20:18,669
Speaker 2: is my highest authority, now I lack liberty rather than

452
00:20:18,810 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 2: other kinds of experiences or beliefs or however we understand liberty.

453
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,620
Speaker 2: You're saying it's the opposite. So explain what you mean

454
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,340
Speaker 2: by that preserving liberty.

455
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 1: So sometimes people hear the term liberty. They think, oh,

456
00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:31,200
Speaker 1: I get to do whatever I want.

457
00:20:31,340 --> 00:20:31,780
Speaker 3: Exactly.

458
00:20:31,820 --> 00:20:35,460
Speaker 1: That's not what the definition should be. Liberty is the

459
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 1: freedom to do the things that we're made to do.

460
00:20:37,850 --> 00:20:40,570
Speaker 1: Freedom to be who we are made to be, who

461
00:20:40,630 --> 00:20:43,330
Speaker 1: God wants us to be. So liberty should be defined

462
00:20:43,470 --> 00:20:45,389
Speaker 1: as how should I live in such a way that

463
00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:47,389
Speaker 1: I manifest God's image in my life as much as

464
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:48,170
Speaker 1: possible and I'm.

465
00:20:48,130 --> 00:20:49,730
Speaker 3: As Christ-like as much as possible.

466
00:20:50,380 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 1: So what tyranny is is not someone– tyranny is not

467
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,859
Speaker 1: merely having rules. Tyranny is having someone govern you that

468
00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:00,040
Speaker 1: doesn't have the right to.

469
00:21:01,220 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 3: That's tyranny.

470
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,780
Speaker 1: Tyranny was someone is over you that doesn't have the

471
00:21:04,820 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 1: authority to be over you. Being under God's rules is freedom.

472
00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:11,340
Speaker 1: Being under man's rules is tyranny. Being under God's rules

473
00:21:11,420 --> 00:21:14,340
Speaker 1: is life. Being under man's rules are death. So the

474
00:21:14,420 --> 00:21:17,060
Speaker 1: point of Sola Scriptura is that it protects us from

475
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 1: the tyranny of human beings. God's the one that can

476
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,810
Speaker 1: lead us. Human beings should not be little gods. And

477
00:21:22,910 --> 00:21:28,250
Speaker 1: anybody who's been around different versions of tyrannical leadership, also

478
00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:30,710
Speaker 1: in the church, knows this, is that there is a

479
00:21:30,730 --> 00:21:32,610
Speaker 1: tendency in the human heart to set up other idols

480
00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:33,230
Speaker 1: in place of God.

481
00:21:33,250 --> 00:21:34,490
Speaker 3: And guess what? The number one idol we want to

482
00:21:34,530 --> 00:21:35,330
Speaker 3: set up in place of God?

483
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:35,909
Speaker 2: Us.

484
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:39,440
Speaker 1: And so the real ruler of some churches isn't God.

485
00:21:39,940 --> 00:21:43,359
Speaker 1: The real ruler of some churches is human tradition and

486
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,949
Speaker 1: human beings. And that's an oppressive life. And you don't

487
00:21:45,970 --> 00:21:47,750
Speaker 1: want to be under it. And soul scripture protects you

488
00:21:47,790 --> 00:21:48,030
Speaker 1: from it.

489
00:21:48,369 --> 00:21:50,189
Speaker 2: Now, I can imagine right now there's some atheists who

490
00:21:50,230 --> 00:21:52,210
Speaker 2: are saying things like, wait a minute, you're saying I

491
00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 2: got to follow your God. And thinking of Christopher Hitchens

492
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,889
Speaker 2: who's like the Christian god is like a celestial North Korea. Now,

493
00:21:59,930 --> 00:22:02,070
Speaker 2: we're not going to address that right now. I just

494
00:22:02,090 --> 00:22:03,790
Speaker 2: want to say this is the kind of objection that

495
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 2: people bring up. Fair enough. There's a time and place

496
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 2: for that. There's also the misconception that freedom is just

497
00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:11,179
Speaker 2: doing whatever you want. But I can't tell you how

498
00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:14,270
Speaker 2: much I love hearing you say this is I'm very

499
00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:17,429
Speaker 2: careful to find freedom. Actually, let me take a step back.

500
00:22:17,450 --> 00:22:20,169
Speaker 2: When I'll ask students, even in Christian circles, to find freedom,

501
00:22:20,230 --> 00:22:24,129
Speaker 2: you'll often hear something like do whatever you want without restraint.

502
00:22:25,170 --> 00:22:27,730
Speaker 2: And I had some Christian students describe to me, they

503
00:22:27,780 --> 00:22:29,740
Speaker 2: said the most free person would be somebody alone on

504
00:22:29,780 --> 00:22:34,939
Speaker 2: an island doing anything they want. Well, if that's what

505
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,620
Speaker 2: freedom is, then yes. But if there's a God who

506
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:42,530
Speaker 2: made us to be in relationship. And his commandments actually

507
00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:46,060
Speaker 2: help us operate and live according to his design.

508
00:22:46,230 --> 00:22:46,690
Speaker 3: Exactly.

509
00:22:46,780 --> 00:22:49,899
Speaker 2: Then that person is least free because they're not in

510
00:22:49,940 --> 00:22:54,740
Speaker 2: the loving, caring relationships that we're designed to have. And

511
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 2: so sola scriptura, preserving that liberty, is such a unique

512
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,770
Speaker 2: element I need to add to that that I think

513
00:23:01,810 --> 00:23:05,030
Speaker 2: is powerful. I think a lot of people will miss.

514
00:23:05,050 --> 00:23:05,910
Speaker 2: So I love that.

515
00:23:06,130 --> 00:23:07,170
Speaker 3: And let me add to that.

516
00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:07,450
Speaker 2: Please.

517
00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:10,550
Speaker 1: You mentioned someone like a Christopher Hitchens who thinks God's

518
00:23:10,590 --> 00:23:13,450
Speaker 1: a tyrannical monster because of all his rules. What's ironic

519
00:23:13,470 --> 00:23:17,570
Speaker 1: about that is that Christopher Hitchens still has rules. And

520
00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:21,350
Speaker 1: everybody has rules of life. What's good, what's bad, what's right,

521
00:23:21,369 --> 00:23:24,169
Speaker 1: what's wrong, what should and shouldn't be. In fact, one

522
00:23:24,190 --> 00:23:25,540
Speaker 1: of the reasons he's so mad at the God of

523
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:26,820
Speaker 1: the Bible is because he thinks the God of the

524
00:23:26,859 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: Bible violates certain norms that he thinks should be there.

525
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 1: But now the question is, well, who's making Christopher Hitchens rules?

526
00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:33,669
Speaker 3: It's not God.

527
00:23:34,190 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: That means the person making the rules is Christopher Hitchens.

528
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: So now you have someone who is basically their own

529
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,100
Speaker 1: God or someone else is their God. And I would

530
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: just simply challenge that. It's not about whether you have rules.

531
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,940
Speaker 1: Everybody has them. Everybody has to have some moral standard

532
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,859
Speaker 1: for things. The question is, is it God's or is

533
00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: it human? And Sola Scriptura says it needs to be God's.

534
00:23:52,830 --> 00:23:55,970
Speaker 2: And it's not only just rules that everybody has. Everybody

535
00:23:56,010 --> 00:23:56,990
Speaker 2: has some authority.

536
00:23:57,190 --> 00:23:57,830
Speaker 3: That's exactly right.

537
00:23:57,850 --> 00:23:58,990
Speaker 2: That's really what it gets back to.

538
00:23:59,050 --> 00:23:59,710
Speaker 3: It could be the self.

539
00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:02,050
Speaker 2: It could be my feelings. Yep. It could be culture.

540
00:24:02,369 --> 00:24:04,409
Speaker 2: It could be my church. They have some standards that

541
00:24:04,430 --> 00:24:08,310
Speaker 2: they're appealing to. It could be science. It's inescapable. We

542
00:24:08,390 --> 00:24:10,869
Speaker 2: all have an authority. And so scriptura is the claim

543
00:24:11,190 --> 00:24:15,030
Speaker 2: that there is a God who has spoken, and by definition,

544
00:24:15,109 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 2: if he is God and he's spoken, carries with itself

545
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,580
Speaker 2: the highest authority. Okay, so one– maybe are there– I'm

546
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,540
Speaker 2: not asking you to call it a particular church or

547
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,020
Speaker 2: an individual, but is there a way to be more

548
00:24:27,140 --> 00:24:29,340
Speaker 2: practical of how somebody could even look at their own

549
00:24:29,380 --> 00:24:32,820
Speaker 2: church and be like, oh my goodness, we have embraced

550
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,750
Speaker 2: this traditionalism above soul scriptura. Like what does that kind

551
00:24:37,790 --> 00:24:40,310
Speaker 2: of look like in practice for that to play out?

552
00:24:40,369 --> 00:24:44,470
Speaker 3: Oh, so complicated. There's several ways it could manifest itself.

553
00:24:44,550 --> 00:24:47,210
Speaker 2: That's the first time you've sighed in all the questions.

554
00:24:46,830 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 3: I've asked you.

555
00:24:47,170 --> 00:24:49,330
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, you're killing me, McDowell.

556
00:24:49,350 --> 00:24:51,750
Speaker 1: No, it's a great question. It's just so complicated to

557
00:24:51,770 --> 00:24:53,889
Speaker 1: think about how to answer it. So basically you're asking,

558
00:24:54,369 --> 00:24:56,210
Speaker 1: what are some ways Christians become traditionalists?

559
00:24:56,890 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's fair. And I'll mention several. some churches are really, uh,

560
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 3: really value confessions.

561
00:25:03,460 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: Okay.

562
00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: Um, confessions of faith, doctrinal statements, things that they hold to.

563
00:25:08,770 --> 00:25:10,570
Speaker 1: Like we, we're from this confession of faith or that

564
00:25:10,609 --> 00:25:11,250
Speaker 1: confession of faith.

565
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:16,150
Speaker 3: Um, excuse me. I trust they can edit that out. No,

566
00:25:16,170 --> 00:25:16,570
Speaker 3: you're good.

567
00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:18,790
Speaker 2: We might even leave it in there for folks just

568
00:25:18,810 --> 00:25:22,190
Speaker 2: so they know we're having a real conversation.

569
00:25:21,230 --> 00:25:23,250
Speaker 3: With my sneeze here. Forgive me for my sneeze.

570
00:25:24,730 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 1: Um, no, what I was saying was, um, is that

571
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,390
Speaker 1: there are certain denominations that really value confessions of faith.

572
00:25:32,010 --> 00:25:34,629
Speaker 1: And I'm in those. I value confessions of faith. I

573
00:25:34,670 --> 00:25:38,630
Speaker 1: have firm a confession of faith. And nothing wrong with that.

574
00:25:38,710 --> 00:25:41,220
Speaker 1: But I think everybody knows in those contexts, those confessions

575
00:25:41,260 --> 00:25:44,140
Speaker 1: can become more and more authoritative, more and more authoritative,

576
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,500
Speaker 1: where at least functionally, they never say this, it almost

577
00:25:47,540 --> 00:25:50,300
Speaker 1: is as authoritative as Scripture. And what I always want

578
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,060
Speaker 1: to remind people is that confessions can be wrong. They

579
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: can be mistaken. You can take exceptions to them because

580
00:25:55,740 --> 00:25:58,260
Speaker 1: they're not the Bible. You cannot take exceptions to the Bible,

581
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,040
Speaker 1: but you can take exceptions to confessional statements.

582
00:26:00,859 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: Other traditionalism is cultural rules.

583
00:26:04,830 --> 00:26:07,530
Speaker 1: People in churches who end up saying, this is what

584
00:26:07,550 --> 00:26:09,810
Speaker 1: a Christian looks like, this is what a Christian does,

585
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:11,330
Speaker 1: this is how they act, this is where they send

586
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:13,550
Speaker 1: their kids to school, this is where they do certain things,

587
00:26:13,570 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: where you add all these rules that aren't demanded by Scripture.

588
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 3: There's a word we have for that in our context.

589
00:26:18,859 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 3: It's called legalism.

590
00:26:20,940 --> 00:26:24,389
Speaker 1: Okay, so when someone says, How do I battle legalism?

591
00:26:25,270 --> 00:26:27,870
Speaker 1: Do you realize that sola scriptura is the way you

592
00:26:27,930 --> 00:26:30,830
Speaker 1: battle legalism? You can battle legalism a lot of ways,

593
00:26:31,050 --> 00:26:35,630
Speaker 1: but you realize that the heart and soul that legalism

594
00:26:35,690 --> 00:26:37,950
Speaker 1: is saying is that we have authority that's as binding

595
00:26:37,990 --> 00:26:40,410
Speaker 1: on you as the Bible. And you can only punch

596
00:26:40,450 --> 00:26:42,610
Speaker 1: a hole in that if you have something to punch

597
00:26:42,650 --> 00:26:43,990
Speaker 1: a hole in it with. And that's the doctrine of

598
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: sola scriptura is that you cannot bind my conscience with

599
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: anything other.

600
00:26:47,380 --> 00:26:47,859
Speaker 3: Than God's word.

601
00:26:48,750 --> 00:26:50,910
Speaker 1: So that's a couple of examples of, I think, how

602
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:53,430
Speaker 1: traditionalism still has a sway in Protestant circles.

603
00:26:53,910 --> 00:26:55,860
Speaker 2: And by the way, it is really interesting that when

604
00:26:55,890 --> 00:26:58,660
Speaker 2: I talk with people who have deconstructed to the point

605
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 2: of deconversion, legalism is like one of the most common

606
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,260
Speaker 2: threads that just shows up, that we're dying on secondary hills,

607
00:27:07,820 --> 00:27:12,830
Speaker 2: that scripture maybe gives us liberty on. So that's really helpful.

608
00:27:12,850 --> 00:27:16,510
Speaker 3: And people forget that that this is addressed by the Bible.

609
00:27:16,609 --> 00:27:19,250
Speaker 1: We have examples of food sacrifice to idols in these

610
00:27:19,710 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 1: early epistles by Paul, where that was a place of

611
00:27:22,740 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: Christian liberty, where people were really upset that you would

612
00:27:24,820 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: eat food sacrifice to idols. And Paul's like, guys, this

613
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: issue is, you can disagree over this. This is neither

614
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,010
Speaker 1: here nor there, right? Someone who has a conscience says, okay,

615
00:27:34,030 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: I won't do it, but someone's free to do it.

616
00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:36,990
Speaker 1: That's a classic example.

617
00:27:37,030 --> 00:27:37,629
Speaker 3: We need more of that.

618
00:27:37,650 --> 00:27:39,950
Speaker 1: We need more recognition that there's things that people make

619
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:41,790
Speaker 1: a main issue that are just not a main issue.

620
00:27:42,140 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 2: And Paul clearly pulls out in 1 Corinthians like you're

621
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: talking about certain things like sexual immorality. Like that is

622
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: not an issue.

623
00:27:49,619 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 3: We can agree to disagree on.

624
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: Exactly. He distinguishes between what we call adiophora, this sort

625
00:27:53,180 --> 00:27:55,820
Speaker 1: of secondary stuff, versus the core truths.

626
00:27:55,540 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 3: That God's word does lay down.

627
00:27:56,780 --> 00:28:00,180
Speaker 1: In other words, Paul is distinguishing effectively what God binds

628
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,780
Speaker 1: you versus man's tradition.

629
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 3: He separates the two, as did Jesus.

630
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: And he does that in Romans 14 as well. But

631
00:28:05,859 --> 00:28:09,490
Speaker 2: people can go and read those. So the first– area

632
00:28:09,550 --> 00:28:13,270
Speaker 2: that soul scripture protects us against is traditionalism. The second

633
00:28:13,310 --> 00:28:16,450
Speaker 2: one is the opposite. You hinted at this earlier is individualism.

634
00:28:16,490 --> 00:28:18,490
Speaker 3: Yes. It's interesting.

635
00:28:19,230 --> 00:28:21,650
Speaker 1: People ask me, which of the three do you think

636
00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:24,179
Speaker 1: Protestants suffer the most from? I keep hopping around. Like

637
00:28:24,220 --> 00:28:26,220
Speaker 1: we just went through the traditionalism thing. I'm like, man,

638
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 1: maybe that's the big one. But then now we come

639
00:28:28,660 --> 00:28:30,460
Speaker 1: to the individualism one and I'm like, well, maybe that's

640
00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:33,379
Speaker 1: the big one. Because individualism is so prominent too. And

641
00:28:33,660 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: as I defined a moment ago in a very simplistic way,

642
00:28:36,140 --> 00:28:40,380
Speaker 1: individualism is a complete removal of yourself from any sort

643
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,570
Speaker 1: of history of the church, creedal tradition of the church.

644
00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:46,710
Speaker 1: It's just you and your Bible starting from scratch. And

645
00:28:46,750 --> 00:28:49,070
Speaker 1: what people don't realize is it sounds like solo scripture

646
00:28:49,130 --> 00:28:51,930
Speaker 1: on the surface. At first glance, you're like, it's just

647
00:28:51,970 --> 00:28:54,390
Speaker 1: the Bible. That's all I have here. But what a

648
00:28:54,410 --> 00:28:56,690
Speaker 1: person really has is their Bible. And what I mean

649
00:28:56,710 --> 00:28:59,310
Speaker 1: by that is they have their private understanding of the Bible.

650
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: And their private understanding of the Bible is basically– it's

651
00:29:03,060 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: not the Bible as their ultimate authority. It just becomes

652
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,490
Speaker 1: that they are their ultimate authority. And so you end

653
00:29:07,550 --> 00:29:11,790
Speaker 1: up having a veneer of sola scriptura. But in reality,

654
00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:14,410
Speaker 1: it's not sola scriptura. It's just you as the ultimate authority,

655
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:17,350
Speaker 1: which is why when we interpret the Bible, it's best

656
00:29:17,430 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: done in community. It's best done corporately, both in the

657
00:29:21,940 --> 00:29:25,780
Speaker 1: modern day corporately and historically corporately. So one of my

658
00:29:25,820 --> 00:29:28,790
Speaker 1: big speeches, and all my church history friends– or happy

659
00:29:28,810 --> 00:29:30,209
Speaker 1: to hear the speech, is that we've got to do

660
00:29:30,250 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: better in the Protestant world on church history. And we've

661
00:29:36,020 --> 00:29:39,970
Speaker 1: got to position ourselves in the larger swath.

662
00:29:40,220 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 3: Of what God has done for 2,000 years.

663
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: It can't just be that my only reference points for

664
00:29:44,660 --> 00:29:47,790
Speaker 1: what to believe about the Bible are my grandma and

665
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:51,210
Speaker 1: my local pastor. And if those two people are saying it, well,

666
00:29:51,230 --> 00:29:53,050
Speaker 1: then there it is. I mean, there's more to look

667
00:29:53,090 --> 00:29:54,290
Speaker 1: at than that. And I think we need to do

668
00:29:54,330 --> 00:29:55,630
Speaker 1: better as Protestants in that area.

669
00:29:56,350 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: I don't know which one is bigger. It was running

670
00:29:57,740 --> 00:29:59,130
Speaker 2: through the back of my mind when you said it.

671
00:29:59,530 --> 00:30:03,050
Speaker 2: And maybe in different circles within Protestantism– and correct me

672
00:30:03,070 --> 00:30:05,950
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong, but maybe you're Reformed, so you can

673
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:08,870
Speaker 2: tell me like McDowell, you got this wrong. Maybe in

674
00:30:08,930 --> 00:30:13,010
Speaker 2: Reformed circles, there could be a tendency towards traditionalism. Maybe

675
00:30:13,030 --> 00:30:16,750
Speaker 2: in Pentecostal circles, there could be a tendency towards individualism.

676
00:30:16,790 --> 00:30:18,650
Speaker 3: Yeah, fair enough. Different groups have different tendencies.

677
00:30:18,970 --> 00:30:22,060
Speaker 2: Although I suspect in Pentecostalism, there's still going to be

678
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,220
Speaker 2: certain traditions that are held on to that they practice.

679
00:30:25,420 --> 00:30:27,180
Speaker 3: Exactly. You can find legalism anywhere.

680
00:30:27,540 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 2: I think that's right.

681
00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 3: It's an equal opportunity problem.

682
00:30:31,380 --> 00:30:34,610
Speaker 1: Almost all denominations have that as an issue at some level.

683
00:30:35,090 --> 00:30:38,810
Speaker 2: So part of the reaction of the reformers was against

684
00:30:38,870 --> 00:30:41,969
Speaker 2: this traditionalism. And then the critique, in some ways we

685
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:45,310
Speaker 2: talked about this, is just me and my Bible. And

686
00:30:45,330 --> 00:30:48,250
Speaker 2: then it makes an individual believer the authority.

687
00:30:48,370 --> 00:30:48,770
Speaker 3: Exactly.

688
00:30:48,890 --> 00:30:51,150
Speaker 2: This is not what soul scripture teaches.

689
00:30:51,170 --> 00:30:54,150
Speaker 1: No, although most people think it is. And they defend

690
00:30:54,190 --> 00:30:55,770
Speaker 1: their private little religious life.

691
00:30:56,190 --> 00:30:56,610
Speaker 3: Think about it.

692
00:30:56,970 --> 00:30:59,290
Speaker 1: What if someone was able to just construct their entire

693
00:30:59,350 --> 00:31:02,390
Speaker 1: Christian world by themselves? Like what I think the Bible means,

694
00:31:02,470 --> 00:31:04,530
Speaker 1: what I think the Bible says, how I understand it,

695
00:31:04,570 --> 00:31:06,470
Speaker 1: what I want to do, how I read these texts.

696
00:31:06,730 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: And it's just this little isolated universe you've created for yourself.

697
00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:12,090
Speaker 1: That is not the biblical vision for sola scriptura. Yes,

698
00:31:12,150 --> 00:31:14,150
Speaker 1: the Bible is the only thing in play, but that's

699
00:31:14,190 --> 00:31:15,860
Speaker 1: not supposed to be how it happens. The Bible is

700
00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:18,700
Speaker 1: the highest authority, not the only one. And the Bible

701
00:31:18,740 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: itself teaches that wisdom is found in many counselors. The

702
00:31:22,660 --> 00:31:25,820
Speaker 1: Bible itself teaches that there's that great sort of cloud

703
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,460
Speaker 1: of witnesses that have gone before you that need to

704
00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:30,530
Speaker 1: be looked at. So I think individualism is a major problem,

705
00:31:30,550 --> 00:31:32,990
Speaker 1: and I think it's an American problem in particular.

706
00:31:33,110 --> 00:31:34,590
Speaker 2: See, I'm glad you just said that because I was

707
00:31:34,610 --> 00:31:39,570
Speaker 2: about to say there's something culturally in our expressive individualism moment.

708
00:31:40,090 --> 00:31:40,910
Speaker 3: Be yourself.

709
00:31:41,130 --> 00:31:45,750
Speaker 2: Live your truth. Even social media's idea is present yourself

710
00:31:45,890 --> 00:31:48,190
Speaker 2: to the world. Yes. And there's kind of– even the

711
00:31:48,250 --> 00:31:52,340
Speaker 2: idea of identity is just disconnected from anything other than

712
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:53,820
Speaker 2: who I want to be.

713
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:53,910
Speaker 1: Yep.

714
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:58,020
Speaker 2: And so I think there's still traditionalism. There's still individualism.

715
00:31:58,060 --> 00:32:01,180
Speaker 2: But culturally speaking, I would say the individualism is probably

716
00:32:01,380 --> 00:32:04,070
Speaker 2: far stronger seeping into the church.

717
00:32:04,090 --> 00:32:04,660
Speaker 3: I think that's right.

718
00:32:04,830 --> 00:32:07,790
Speaker 1: And by the way, our Roman Catholic friends– are pointing

719
00:32:07,810 --> 00:32:13,410
Speaker 1: this out about Protestants. They're like, hey, guys, this unmoored

720
00:32:14,110 --> 00:32:18,500
Speaker 1: free-for-all is not working among you Protestants. And they're not wrong.

721
00:32:18,780 --> 00:32:20,500
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean you should be Roman Catholic, but they're

722
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: not wrong about the critique. And we need to hear

723
00:32:22,780 --> 00:32:26,580
Speaker 1: the critique. There is too much sort of individualistic, isolated,

724
00:32:27,220 --> 00:32:32,690
Speaker 1: non-contextual Christianity that needs to be addressed. And so we

725
00:32:32,730 --> 00:32:36,050
Speaker 1: need to hear that critique and recover a more robust

726
00:32:36,170 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: recovery of some of the early Uh, positioning of the church.

727
00:32:39,250 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: So soul scripture is not that scripture is the only authority.

728
00:32:43,420 --> 00:32:45,469
Speaker 2: It's that it's the highest authority.

729
00:32:45,510 --> 00:32:45,810
Speaker 3: Correct.

730
00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:49,690
Speaker 2: It's not that I only read the Bible and I

731
00:32:49,770 --> 00:32:52,970
Speaker 2: don't also pray or go to church or have fellowship

732
00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:55,290
Speaker 2: or solitude or other spiritual discipline.

733
00:32:55,310 --> 00:32:57,830
Speaker 1: Commentaries or listening to the history of the church or

734
00:32:57,890 --> 00:32:58,550
Speaker 1: creedal statements.

735
00:32:58,590 --> 00:32:59,650
Speaker 3: Exactly. Exactly.

736
00:32:59,670 --> 00:33:03,650
Speaker 2: And it's also not just solo me and scripture.

737
00:33:03,910 --> 00:33:04,110
Speaker 3: Correct.

738
00:33:04,130 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: That's a complete misunderstanding of it. We just look back

739
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 2: in the Old Testament and, of course, in the New

740
00:33:09,940 --> 00:33:14,470
Speaker 2: Testament itself. It's never my individual interpretation or understanding of

741
00:33:14,510 --> 00:33:17,970
Speaker 2: what God said apart from the community and certain corrections

742
00:33:18,010 --> 00:33:18,590
Speaker 2: that are built in.

743
00:33:18,610 --> 00:33:21,790
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the corporateness thing is something that just needs

744
00:33:21,830 --> 00:33:26,890
Speaker 1: more attention. So look, not only is America an individualistic society,

745
00:33:27,130 --> 00:33:30,870
Speaker 1: but lots of times when we think about sharing the

746
00:33:30,910 --> 00:33:34,390
Speaker 1: gospel with people, it's very much about sort of individual conversion,

747
00:33:34,430 --> 00:33:37,110
Speaker 1: individual decisions, and those are all real things. A person

748
00:33:37,150 --> 00:33:39,820
Speaker 1: has to personally– Follow God and put their faith in God.

749
00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:41,870
Speaker 1: Joining the church doesn't make you a Christian. At the

750
00:33:41,910 --> 00:33:46,010
Speaker 1: same time, is it possible we've talked so much about individualistic.

751
00:33:45,430 --> 00:33:46,910
Speaker 3: Things we're not talking corporately enough?

752
00:33:47,090 --> 00:33:49,950
Speaker 1: And I think there's a recovery of an ecclesiology maybe

753
00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:50,530
Speaker 1: that's needed there.

754
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:51,350
Speaker 3: I love that.

755
00:33:51,530 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 2: Good stuff. Yep. So the three we got to protect

756
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,100
Speaker 2: against with soul scripture is traditionalism. Yep. And ironically gives

757
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:00,700
Speaker 2: us Christian liberty.

758
00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:01,740
Speaker 3: Love that. Yep.

759
00:34:02,180 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: Flip side, protects against individualism. This third one I completely

760
00:34:05,980 --> 00:34:07,900
Speaker 2: did not see coming, but it made sense once you

761
00:34:07,940 --> 00:34:12,169
Speaker 2: explained it, is that soul scripture guards against existentialism. Yes.

762
00:34:12,190 --> 00:34:12,690
Speaker 2: Explain that.

763
00:34:13,250 --> 00:34:17,090
Speaker 1: So existentialism could be defined as instead of scripture as

764
00:34:17,130 --> 00:34:20,330
Speaker 1: my ultimate authority, my experience with God is my ultimate authority.

765
00:34:20,450 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 3: My encounter with God is my ultimate authority. My feelings

766
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:24,820
Speaker 3: are my ultimate authority.

767
00:34:25,420 --> 00:34:30,219
Speaker 1: So what existentialism does is basically just kicks the Bible

768
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: to the curbs.

769
00:34:31,410 --> 00:34:33,210
Speaker 3: And says, who needs a dusty old book anyway?

770
00:34:33,590 --> 00:34:36,530
Speaker 1: What real religion is and what, at least for Christians,

771
00:34:36,570 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: what they think real Christianity is, is an encounter with

772
00:34:39,420 --> 00:34:42,420
Speaker 1: Jesus in the here and now, right? That I'm interacting

773
00:34:42,460 --> 00:34:44,660
Speaker 1: with God in the present, not looking at some book

774
00:34:44,700 --> 00:34:48,500
Speaker 1: that's about the past. And so existentialism is a defined

775
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,930
Speaker 1: philosophical category, but there's a Christian existentialism that's really there

776
00:34:52,430 --> 00:34:55,790
Speaker 1: and has historically been there. And it is a violation

777
00:34:55,810 --> 00:34:58,620
Speaker 1: of sola scriptura. So the scripture would say, no, your

778
00:34:58,660 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: feelings are not your highest authority. Your divine encounter is

779
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,710
Speaker 1: not your highest authority. What you think is happening to

780
00:35:02,750 --> 00:35:05,090
Speaker 1: you in a spiritual experience is not your highest authority.

781
00:35:05,110 --> 00:35:09,770
Speaker 1: That too has to be interpreted through the lens of scripture. Now,

782
00:35:10,330 --> 00:35:12,030
Speaker 1: one of the things I mentioned in the lecture yesterday

783
00:35:12,190 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: is that what makes existentialism hard to pin down is

784
00:35:15,140 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: that there's an element of truth in it. Is it

785
00:35:17,140 --> 00:35:19,580
Speaker 1: not true that the Christian life has an experiential dimension

786
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:19,830
Speaker 1: to it?

787
00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:21,580
Speaker 3: Of course. Do you not have an encounter with God

788
00:35:21,620 --> 00:35:24,299
Speaker 3: in the present day in prayer and other ways?

789
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:24,660
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.

790
00:35:25,390 --> 00:35:27,569
Speaker 1: But the idea that that could rise up to such

791
00:35:27,610 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: a level of guidance for you that you put Scripture aside,

792
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 1: that's where the danger lies. So this gets into like

793
00:35:33,860 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: private revelations and secret revelations and secret traditions that are

794
00:35:37,140 --> 00:35:38,810
Speaker 1: outside the Bible through these divine encounters.

795
00:35:39,690 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: Okay, so— individualism still holds up the Bible as authoritative,

796
00:35:44,660 --> 00:35:48,460
Speaker 2: but it's my interpretation of the Bible, which kind of

797
00:35:48,540 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 2: maybe makes it the self really, but they're still saying

798
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: my interpretation is the authority. It's in play. Existentialism is

799
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,660
Speaker 2: now my experience of God. My encounter with God becomes

800
00:36:00,739 --> 00:36:04,299
Speaker 2: the authority itself above So that one of the three,

801
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,980
Speaker 2: it would seem to me, would be the least common,

802
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: at least in evangelical circles. Nobody would own that. Now,

803
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,290
Speaker 2: how many people actually do that? I don't know how

804
00:36:13,310 --> 00:36:14,230
Speaker 2: to answer that question.

805
00:36:14,250 --> 00:36:17,069
Speaker 1: I think you're right in evangelical circles, but not in

806
00:36:17,390 --> 00:36:19,950
Speaker 1: broad Christian circles. So one of the things that's interesting

807
00:36:19,989 --> 00:36:23,300
Speaker 1: is the way existentialism has manifested itself in mainline liberal

808
00:36:23,340 --> 00:36:28,180
Speaker 1: denominations historically. Now, we think of mainline liberal denominations now

809
00:36:28,380 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: as entirely spiritually bereft, right? But historically, people forget, particularly

810
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,180
Speaker 1: early 20th century, that mainline liberal denominations were very spiritually engaged.

811
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,210
Speaker 1: They were very concerned about morality. They just didn't believe

812
00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:43,730
Speaker 1: in core doctrines. And I mentioned Rudolf Bultmann in the lecture.

813
00:36:43,770 --> 00:36:46,950
Speaker 1: You know, here's a guy who has got no evangelical

814
00:36:46,989 --> 00:36:49,969
Speaker 1: bone in his body, all right? But he is very

815
00:36:50,030 --> 00:36:55,390
Speaker 1: much spiritual. He's very much engaged about divine encounters. And

816
00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: he describes them and frames them not around the Bible

817
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: but about a present-day personal encounter with the living God.

818
00:37:01,050 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 3: And so was Bultmann an atheist? No.

819
00:37:03,540 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: Was Bultmann, he wasn't even a deist. He was, at

820
00:37:06,140 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: least in his own mind, he was a Christian. Okay, now,

821
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:10,339
Speaker 1: we don't think he was a Christian in the sense

822
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: that he embraced true doctrines, but he was in his

823
00:37:12,780 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 1: mind he was a Christian. It's just that he didn't

824
00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:16,060
Speaker 1: think the Bible played a meaningful role.

825
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 3: So you're right.

826
00:37:17,180 --> 00:37:19,469
Speaker 1: Evangelicals maybe aren't quite there, but there's versions of it

827
00:37:19,489 --> 00:37:24,930
Speaker 1: in evangelicalism. It's very, very, very much about spirituality, very much.

828
00:37:24,850 --> 00:37:28,950
Speaker 3: About a spiritual experience. We see that. And it's sort

829
00:37:28,969 --> 00:37:29,990
Speaker 3: of Oprah Winfrey style.

830
00:37:30,670 --> 00:37:34,029
Speaker 1: You know, I can talk about Jesus, I can talk

831
00:37:34,070 --> 00:37:36,150
Speaker 1: about faith, and I can talk about spiritual experience, but

832
00:37:36,170 --> 00:37:36,969
Speaker 1: the last thing I talk about.

833
00:37:36,890 --> 00:37:37,250
Speaker 3: Is the Bible.

834
00:37:38,489 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: So obviously you're in favor of– you're Reformed. You're in

835
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:48,379
Speaker 2: favor of spiritual experiences that people have to know God personally. Yeah.

836
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,180
Speaker 2: But those are always filtered through. Does it match up

837
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,259
Speaker 2: with Scripture? So if I interpret something differently, somehow my

838
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,810
Speaker 2: experience was off, and that's not the authority– Is the

839
00:37:59,850 --> 00:38:01,930
Speaker 2: approach for you. So things like to me, I look

840
00:38:01,989 --> 00:38:05,350
Speaker 2: at like near-death experiences. I personally have done a ton

841
00:38:05,370 --> 00:38:08,500
Speaker 2: of shows researching this. I find them totally compelling.

842
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 3: Great.

843
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,620
Speaker 2: They have to be under the rubric of Scripture.

844
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

845
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,470
Speaker 2: So when somebody reports something, it's like, oh, wait a minute.

846
00:38:15,530 --> 00:38:19,649
Speaker 2: It's one thing to have an experience that doesn't contradict Scripture. Right.

847
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,029
Speaker 2: And it's another thing to say, oh, no, I had

848
00:38:22,050 --> 00:38:25,469
Speaker 2: this experience of reincarnation. I'm like, time out. This needs

849
00:38:25,489 --> 00:38:25,810
Speaker 2: to be.

850
00:38:25,950 --> 00:38:27,790
Speaker 3: Under the rubric of Scripture. That's exactly right.

851
00:38:28,110 --> 00:38:30,770
Speaker 2: That's how you would approach those kind of spiritual things.

852
00:38:30,830 --> 00:38:31,270
Speaker 2: Is that fair?

853
00:38:31,290 --> 00:38:31,790
Speaker 3: Yeah.

854
00:38:31,989 --> 00:38:35,670
Speaker 1: So all of life is subject to God's revelation and

855
00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:38,270
Speaker 1: God's word. So whether I'm trying to think about how

856
00:38:38,290 --> 00:38:41,689
Speaker 1: to think about economics or sports or politics, I also

857
00:38:41,710 --> 00:38:43,730
Speaker 1: have to think about my experience in light of God's

858
00:38:43,770 --> 00:38:46,790
Speaker 1: word and what I feel and what I think is

859
00:38:46,830 --> 00:38:49,589
Speaker 1: happening and how I'm interpreting my prayer life and so forth.

860
00:38:49,610 --> 00:38:49,950
Speaker 3: So, yes.

861
00:38:50,910 --> 00:38:53,670
Speaker 1: We're not saying that Christian life does not have experiential dimensions.

862
00:38:53,690 --> 00:38:56,930
Speaker 1: Of course it does, but never divorced from, right, and

863
00:38:56,950 --> 00:39:00,740
Speaker 1: certainly not trumped over Scripture. And then when that happens,

864
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: and we've all seen it happen historically, things go wonky fast.

865
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,540
Speaker 1: Some of the most famous cults have come from people

866
00:39:07,580 --> 00:39:11,170
Speaker 1: who've had private religious experiences that have become so dominant

867
00:39:11,610 --> 00:39:13,989
Speaker 1: in their private revelations that Scripture is no longer really

868
00:39:14,010 --> 00:39:15,370
Speaker 1: a factor anymore, and they've become their own thing.

869
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 2: Which I think really do indicate that they never really

870
00:39:18,260 --> 00:39:21,009
Speaker 2: believed in the authority of Scripture.

871
00:39:20,469 --> 00:39:22,630
Speaker 3: To start with. In other words, they never affirmed Sola Scriptura.

872
00:39:23,130 --> 00:39:25,390
Speaker 2: I say this all the time. I'm curious if you

873
00:39:25,410 --> 00:39:26,850
Speaker 2: would agree with this and how this would fit into

874
00:39:26,890 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 2: Sola Scriptura. I say, really, the big... issue today is

875
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 2: biblical authority.

876
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 3: Yeah.

877
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,299
Speaker 2: That's the heart of the question. So we could talk

878
00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:37,940
Speaker 2: about whatever moral issue people are debating in the culture.

879
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,890
Speaker 2: What is my authority I'm going to lean to on that?

880
00:39:42,010 --> 00:39:43,770
Speaker 2: It really comes back to biblical authority.

881
00:39:43,790 --> 00:39:44,109
Speaker 3: That's right.

882
00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:45,550
Speaker 2: And that's the heart of Sola Scriptura.

883
00:39:45,850 --> 00:39:47,830
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think we all would agree that

884
00:39:47,969 --> 00:39:50,850
Speaker 1: the one of the core doctrines of Christianity, and I

885
00:39:50,890 --> 00:39:53,910
Speaker 1: mentioned this in my lectures, was that God speaks and

886
00:39:53,950 --> 00:39:55,890
Speaker 1: that when God speaks, it's a way he builds a

887
00:39:55,890 --> 00:39:58,030
Speaker 1: relationship with his people. That's what his speaking is doing.

888
00:39:58,070 --> 00:40:00,730
Speaker 1: And the most important thing a Christian can ever do

889
00:40:00,830 --> 00:40:03,650
Speaker 1: is listen to their Lord when he speaks to them.

890
00:40:03,690 --> 00:40:05,229
Speaker 1: And so if we don't have the word of God,

891
00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:07,819
Speaker 1: we're adrift at sea. And so the word of God's authority,

892
00:40:07,860 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: as you put it, is central to the health of

893
00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:11,500
Speaker 1: the church. And this is why this doctrine has to

894
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: be recovered. I've done my work in canon. Canon is

895
00:40:14,140 --> 00:40:16,500
Speaker 1: not about soul scripture per se, but canon lays the

896
00:40:16,540 --> 00:40:18,540
Speaker 1: foundation for soul scripture, because if we can know which

897
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,540
Speaker 1: books are from God, then they can function as our

898
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: highest authority. So you need the canon discussion to undergird

899
00:40:25,180 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: soul scripture, but they really go hand in hand.

900
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that up. We only have a

901
00:40:28,460 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 2: little bit of time, but where would you start to

902
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,860
Speaker 2: take that from a Protestant perspective? Because we have scripture

903
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: as the highest authority, and then the question you get

904
00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:37,969
Speaker 2: and I get all the time is, how do we

905
00:40:38,090 --> 00:40:41,509
Speaker 2: know we have the right scriptures? Yeah. And we could

906
00:40:41,530 --> 00:40:43,330
Speaker 2: come back and do a deep dive in this. We

907
00:40:43,350 --> 00:40:46,090
Speaker 2: had this conversation a little bit before, maybe six months ago.

908
00:40:46,550 --> 00:40:48,450
Speaker 2: But where would you take that as kind of part

909
00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:49,230
Speaker 2: two to this?

910
00:40:49,770 --> 00:40:51,650
Speaker 3: Yeah, so lots of ways to go there.

911
00:40:51,890 --> 00:40:54,110
Speaker 1: But if the Scripture is the highest authority over everything,

912
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,540
Speaker 1: then it's also the highest authority over how I authenticate it.

913
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,140
Speaker 1: And this is one of the points I make in

914
00:40:59,180 --> 00:41:01,700
Speaker 1: my book, Canon Revisited, for those who love it or

915
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: maybe those who disagree. Fair enough, but it is the

916
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 1: point I make, which is that if Scripture is the

917
00:41:05,340 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 1: highest authority, then Scripture has to be the guide for

918
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,029
Speaker 1: how I even authenticate Scriptures. I think that's an inevitability.

919
00:41:12,050 --> 00:41:14,169
Speaker 1: I think if Scripture is the highest authority, it leads

920
00:41:14,210 --> 00:41:16,450
Speaker 1: to a self-authenticating Bible. So the reason I had these

921
00:41:16,489 --> 00:41:19,470
Speaker 1: two parts of my lecture yesterday is because they hang together.

922
00:41:20,219 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: So when we talk about a self-authenticating Bible, that doesn't

923
00:41:25,020 --> 00:41:27,420
Speaker 1: mean historical evidences don't play a role. But just like

924
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,020
Speaker 1: I interpret my experience through the Scriptures, I also interpret

925
00:41:30,060 --> 00:41:31,180
Speaker 1: my historical evidence through the Scriptures.

926
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 3: In other words, historical.

927
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,690
Speaker 1: Evidences are not some axiomatic thing outside the Bible that

928
00:41:35,710 --> 00:41:36,550
Speaker 1: stands over the Bible.

929
00:41:36,930 --> 00:41:37,790
Speaker 3: It's part of God's world.

930
00:41:38,380 --> 00:41:40,340
Speaker 1: And I can examine the historical evidences, but never in

931
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,020
Speaker 1: such a way that I treat them as some external

932
00:41:42,060 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: authority over God's word. But I think once you start

933
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,259
Speaker 1: doing that, you can see the historical evidence for these

934
00:41:48,350 --> 00:41:50,850
Speaker 1: books all going back to apostles, for example, is really,

935
00:41:50,890 --> 00:41:53,149
Speaker 1: really strong. And I think that can give you reasons

936
00:41:53,170 --> 00:41:54,750
Speaker 1: for thinking, yes, we have the right books, and now

937
00:41:54,790 --> 00:41:56,690
Speaker 1: I can let them function in my life as my authority.

938
00:41:57,150 --> 00:42:00,009
Speaker 1: So that's just one piece of the canonical puzzle. But

939
00:42:00,070 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: I think the starting place is the key there. You

940
00:42:01,980 --> 00:42:04,830
Speaker 1: don't start by saying, okay, How do I prove the

941
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:07,930
Speaker 1: canon from some other third place on the scene and

942
00:42:07,950 --> 00:42:11,460
Speaker 1: then kind of sort of in some Cartesian way make

943
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,739
Speaker 1: a proof of it? I don't think that that's the

944
00:42:13,780 --> 00:42:15,299
Speaker 1: way you can do that with the Bible. I think

945
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,910
Speaker 1: you have to, in fact, consider the Bible as you

946
00:42:17,969 --> 00:42:18,509
Speaker 1: authenticate it.

947
00:42:19,210 --> 00:42:21,950
Speaker 2: And some of those, just quick, some of those indicators

948
00:42:22,030 --> 00:42:25,690
Speaker 2: authentically would be the power, would be the beauty.

949
00:42:25,710 --> 00:42:25,930
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

950
00:42:26,370 --> 00:42:28,730
Speaker 2: We'd be the— what are some of the other terms that

951
00:42:28,790 --> 00:42:29,989
Speaker 2: just set it apart? Yeah.

952
00:42:30,190 --> 00:42:32,670
Speaker 1: So when we talk about how the Bible authenticates itself,

953
00:42:33,010 --> 00:42:34,569
Speaker 1: one of the ways is what I just mentioned, is

954
00:42:34,590 --> 00:42:37,180
Speaker 1: that the Bible itself says the apostles matter. So I

955
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,060
Speaker 1: can go and see which books are from apostles. Okay,

956
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:39,899
Speaker 1: so that's part of the puzzle.

957
00:42:40,140 --> 00:42:40,259
Speaker 2: Okay.

958
00:42:40,460 --> 00:42:42,860
Speaker 1: But then I can look at the books themselves and

959
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,660
Speaker 1: see qualities in those, the indicia, the Latin phrase we

960
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:47,739
Speaker 1: talked about yesterday, the indicators that it's from God. And

961
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,029
Speaker 1: you're right, there's three that historically have been mentioned by

962
00:42:50,070 --> 00:42:53,550
Speaker 1: patristic sources and theologians. The beauty and excellency of Scripture—

963
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: the power and efficacy of Scripture, and the unity and

964
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,779
Speaker 1: harmony of Scripture. And it's that third one that I

965
00:42:58,820 --> 00:43:02,020
Speaker 1: think gets most of the attention, and rightly so. This book,

966
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,750
Speaker 1: to have such unity among us, different disparate parts, over

967
00:43:05,810 --> 00:43:07,790
Speaker 1: thousands of years by so many different authors, how do

968
00:43:07,810 --> 00:43:08,870
Speaker 1: you explain that on a human level?

969
00:43:08,950 --> 00:43:10,910
Speaker 3: I think that is a divine quality.

970
00:43:11,650 --> 00:43:13,609
Speaker 1: You can look at the Bible and see it's got

971
00:43:13,630 --> 00:43:16,410
Speaker 1: God's fingerprints over it by that feature in it. That's

972
00:43:16,430 --> 00:43:17,930
Speaker 1: not a feature I'm inventing. That's not a feature I

973
00:43:17,969 --> 00:43:20,390
Speaker 1: wish were there. It's a feature that's actually there, and

974
00:43:20,410 --> 00:43:21,739
Speaker 1: that speaks to its divine origins. Right.

975
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 2: Some of the unity and diversity of the Bible is

976
00:43:24,460 --> 00:43:26,620
Speaker 2: what's key. We can get lost when we just focus

977
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,060
Speaker 2: on the diversity. We'd also get lost when we overemphasize

978
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,819
Speaker 2: the unity and miss some of the differences. But even

979
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,259
Speaker 2: this is a topic that would take us aside, but

980
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,380
Speaker 2: I've been reading so many different books in their entirety recently,

981
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: and it's just struck me how commonly that salvation is

982
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,689
Speaker 2: by faith alone. So you even see like in Acts,

983
00:43:44,830 --> 00:43:48,190
Speaker 2: in Acts 16, if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ,

984
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,820
Speaker 2: You shall be saved. Hebrews chapter 4, those who enter

985
00:43:51,890 --> 00:43:56,510
Speaker 2: his rest are those who believe. It's all over Romans.

986
00:43:56,570 --> 00:43:59,610
Speaker 2: John 6, 29, what work must you do? Believe in

987
00:43:59,650 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: the one whom he has sent. There's radical differences from

988
00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: John to Hebrews to the other books, but that common

989
00:44:06,660 --> 00:44:10,550
Speaker 2: thread amongst others– is one that points towards its unity.

990
00:44:10,610 --> 00:44:13,330
Speaker 1: And what a remarkable common thread. I mean, does the

991
00:44:13,430 --> 00:44:15,770
Speaker 1: natural person decide they're going to be saved this way?

992
00:44:15,810 --> 00:44:18,690
Speaker 1: Almost universally, and you see this in other Greco-Roman religions,

993
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:21,730
Speaker 1: you're saved by your duty, you're saved by your practice,

994
00:44:21,750 --> 00:44:22,390
Speaker 1: you're saved by.

995
00:44:22,310 --> 00:44:25,380
Speaker 3: Your good works. The idea that you have that thread.

996
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: Of unification throughout these Christian texts is stunning, given the

997
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:29,500
Speaker 1: ancient context they're in.

998
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,720
Speaker 2: You're right, because every other faith works based on some fashion.

999
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,940
Speaker 2: It's unique to Christianity that it's a gift, and grace

1000
00:44:37,020 --> 00:44:41,989
Speaker 2: is beautiful, but in some ways it's counterintuitive. We want

1001
00:44:42,010 --> 00:44:42,990
Speaker 2: to earn things.

1002
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:44,110
Speaker 3: Uh, all right.

1003
00:44:44,150 --> 00:44:46,489
Speaker 2: But with that said, what about immediately people are thinking, okay,

1004
00:44:46,510 --> 00:44:50,820
Speaker 2: what about the Mormon claim? Moroni 10, four, read the Bible.

1005
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:52,420
Speaker 2: If you, I'm sorry, if you read the book of

1006
00:44:52,460 --> 00:44:56,060
Speaker 2: Mormon and you approach it in the right prayerful state,

1007
00:44:56,580 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 2: you will just know kind of experientially and see that

1008
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:00,820
Speaker 2: it's true.

1009
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1010
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: What would your response be to that?

1011
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,350
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's been, uh, A number of folks over the

1012
00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:08,989
Speaker 1: years that I think have misunderstood what has historically been

1013
00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:11,270
Speaker 1: meant by a self-authenticating Bible, and they think it's just

1014
00:45:11,310 --> 00:45:14,950
Speaker 1: a form of existentialism. Or another way to say it

1015
00:45:14,989 --> 00:45:16,930
Speaker 1: is they think it's a form of subjectivism, the idea

1016
00:45:16,969 --> 00:45:19,070
Speaker 1: that I have an experience, I have a feeling, and

1017
00:45:19,090 --> 00:45:22,690
Speaker 1: therefore it proves the Bible is true. And therefore it

1018
00:45:22,710 --> 00:45:24,990
Speaker 1: looks like Mormonism because of the burning in the bosom

1019
00:45:25,010 --> 00:45:27,190
Speaker 1: that you supposedly have that tells you the Book of

1020
00:45:27,210 --> 00:45:30,230
Speaker 1: Mormon is from God. But that's definitively not the argument.

1021
00:45:30,530 --> 00:45:33,410
Speaker 1: That may be a misunderstanding of what a self-authenticating Bible means,

1022
00:45:33,430 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 1: but it's not what historically it's meant. The doctrine of

1023
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,509
Speaker 1: self-authentication doesn't say that I believe the Bible is the

1024
00:45:38,530 --> 00:45:40,630
Speaker 1: Word of God because I have experience with the Spirit.

1025
00:45:41,330 --> 00:45:44,550
Speaker 1: I'm not even really realizing the Spirit's doing what he's doing.

1026
00:45:45,310 --> 00:45:47,830
Speaker 1: The argument is that there's objective qualities that are really

1027
00:45:47,850 --> 00:45:50,529
Speaker 1: there in the Bible that one could recognize with the

1028
00:45:50,570 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: help of the Spirit, but you don't put the qualities there.

1029
00:45:53,860 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: The qualities are not merely the thing that's in my

1030
00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: mind or heart. They're actually in the Bible itself. Now,

1031
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,980
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean there's not a subjective dimension to that,

1032
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,219
Speaker 1: but there's a subjective dimension to anything because it's a

1033
00:46:04,260 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: person ascertaining So you could say there's a subjective dimension

1034
00:46:07,820 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: to examining historical evidence because isn't it a person that's

1035
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,420
Speaker 1: examining the historical evidence and has to assess that historical

1036
00:46:13,460 --> 00:46:17,140
Speaker 1: evidence but doesn't make historical studies subjectivism any more than

1037
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: examining the Bible for its divine qualities is subjectivism. So

1038
00:46:20,180 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: these are very different things. And Mormonism has its own

1039
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,180
Speaker 1: version of this, but that is sadly not what's going

1040
00:46:25,300 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 1: on with the self-authenticating doctrine.

1041
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,390
Speaker 2: And you also talk about how it has– a book

1042
00:46:30,430 --> 00:46:33,330
Speaker 2: would have the beauty and excellency of Christ.

1043
00:46:33,410 --> 00:46:33,739
Speaker 3: Yes.

1044
00:46:34,050 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: As I read the Mormon scriptures, they don't elevate Christ.

1045
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,140
Speaker 2: I would argue that they actually lower Christ and contradict

1046
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,150
Speaker 2: what we find in the Gospels and Acts and the

1047
00:46:45,210 --> 00:46:48,330
Speaker 2: other books. And then we could bring in apologetics from

1048
00:46:48,489 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 2: the outside on top of the self-authenticating nature. And if

1049
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 2: somebody goes, well, I think it's self-authenticating, let's look at

1050
00:46:56,340 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: the data, let's look at the evidence, and that comes

1051
00:46:58,480 --> 00:46:59,140
Speaker 2: into play as well.

1052
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,580
Speaker 1: It's not like you can't examine that claim. In other words,

1053
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,180
Speaker 1: just because someone claims their books are self-authenticating doesn't mean

1054
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: that can't be examined. So if someone says, my books

1055
00:47:08,380 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 1: have unity and harmony, okay, well, let's have a look.

1056
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:11,939
Speaker 3: Let's see if they do. Fair enough.

1057
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,720
Speaker 2: All right, so last question. In some ways, you probably

1058
00:47:14,780 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 2: answered this, but if somebody goes, all right, soul scripter,

1059
00:47:17,570 --> 00:47:21,069
Speaker 2: it's a fancy term, who cares? How would you in

1060
00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:23,510
Speaker 2: sum just say, here's why we need this?

1061
00:47:25,260 --> 00:47:28,540
Speaker 3: That would be the equivalent of saying, oh, God has spoken.

1062
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,779
Speaker 3: Who cares? It's really the same point. I mean, if

1063
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,420
Speaker 3: someone says the God of the universe exists, he's.

1064
00:47:35,340 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: Real, he made everything and he made you and he's

1065
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,400
Speaker 1: got something to say to you. And the person goes, yeah,

1066
00:47:41,060 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: I don't care. If that's a person's reaction and the

1067
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:45,730
Speaker 1: problem isn't with God, the problem is. The problem is

1068
00:47:45,750 --> 00:47:48,250
Speaker 1: in here. The problem is with that person because there's

1069
00:47:48,310 --> 00:47:50,450
Speaker 1: something broken there to think that the God of the

1070
00:47:50,489 --> 00:47:52,089
Speaker 1: universe speaks and you don't really care what they say.

1071
00:47:52,770 --> 00:47:56,930
Speaker 1: Sola Scriptura is basically saying that God has spoken. It

1072
00:47:57,030 --> 00:47:59,489
Speaker 1: matters what he says because he's God and that the

1073
00:47:59,530 --> 00:48:01,670
Speaker 1: best thing we can do is listen to him. And

1074
00:48:01,690 --> 00:48:03,509
Speaker 1: if we listen to him, we recognize that if he's God,

1075
00:48:03,530 --> 00:48:04,790
Speaker 1: he's the highest authority in our lives.

1076
00:48:05,230 --> 00:48:07,670
Speaker 3: And as we said, why else does it matter? Because

1077
00:48:07,690 --> 00:48:08,390
Speaker 3: that's where freedom is.

1078
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:11,370
Speaker 1: That's where life is. If God made us and he

1079
00:48:11,410 --> 00:48:12,930
Speaker 1: has something to say, why would we think that's a

1080
00:48:12,969 --> 00:48:15,350
Speaker 1: bad thing? If he's a good God, then what he

1081
00:48:15,390 --> 00:48:17,150
Speaker 1: says to us is a good thing. It's a declaration

1082
00:48:17,170 --> 00:48:19,210
Speaker 1: of good news. So if someone goes, who cares about

1083
00:48:19,250 --> 00:48:21,170
Speaker 1: social scripture? I'm like, well, don't you care that God

1084
00:48:21,190 --> 00:48:23,009
Speaker 1: has spoken? Don't you care that he might have good

1085
00:48:23,050 --> 00:48:25,110
Speaker 1: news for you and that he might give you the

1086
00:48:25,150 --> 00:48:25,990
Speaker 1: path to life and freedom?

1087
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:26,990
Speaker 3: That would be what I would say.

1088
00:48:27,340 --> 00:48:29,700
Speaker 2: I love that you brought it full circle with freedom.

1089
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 2: It's about liberation. If there's a God who has made

1090
00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:34,919
Speaker 2: you and wants to be in a relationship with you

1091
00:48:35,580 --> 00:48:38,580
Speaker 2: and this God has spoken, then the single best way

1092
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: to know about that God and the path to freedom

1093
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,050
Speaker 2: are to read and study and think about and meditate

1094
00:48:45,130 --> 00:48:49,010
Speaker 2: on the words that God has spoken. For me, I've

1095
00:48:49,030 --> 00:48:51,649
Speaker 2: always believed that my whole life, but growing and reading

1096
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 2: the scriptures, growing in that conviction just changed the way

1097
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: I approach and read the scriptures and just have a

1098
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,100
Speaker 2: hunger to get into them. And I know you do

1099
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 2: as well. You have a blog called Canon Fodder. Yep.

1100
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,220
Speaker 2: I read it, share it all the time on Twitter

1101
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:06,140
Speaker 2: and other areas.

1102
00:49:06,180 --> 00:49:06,700
Speaker 3: Happy to do it.

1103
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,890
Speaker 2: It's great stuff. Your book, Canon Revisited, Any other books

1104
00:49:10,910 --> 00:49:13,550
Speaker 2: you've written on the topic of canon or on soul

1105
00:49:13,570 --> 00:49:16,620
Speaker 2: scriptura that would relate to this conversation you want people

1106
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 2: to know about?

1107
00:49:17,570 --> 00:49:19,970
Speaker 1: I wrote another book called The Question of Canon with Interverse.

1108
00:49:20,540 --> 00:49:23,870
Speaker 1: which is different from Canon Revisited. Canon Revisited is the

1109
00:49:23,890 --> 00:49:25,529
Speaker 1: book most people talk about where I talk about the

1110
00:49:25,590 --> 00:49:27,969
Speaker 1: self-authenticating model. That's not what The Question of Canon is about.

1111
00:49:28,030 --> 00:49:31,850
Speaker 1: It's about thinking of canon as innate to Christianity rather

1112
00:49:31,890 --> 00:49:35,310
Speaker 1: than a later imposition. So it's dealing with different historical issues.

1113
00:49:35,350 --> 00:49:37,630
Speaker 1: People might find that interesting. And I think you may

1114
00:49:37,650 --> 00:49:39,110
Speaker 1: have alluded to my book on the second century. I

1115
00:49:39,110 --> 00:49:40,230
Speaker 1: can't remember if you said that, but I have a

1116
00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:43,220
Speaker 1: book called Christianity at the Crossroads, where I talk about

1117
00:49:43,300 --> 00:49:45,700
Speaker 1: second century Christianity. I get into canon issues there, too,

1118
00:49:45,739 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: amongst other things, and about the way Scripture functioned in

1119
00:49:49,219 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 1: the life of the earliest Christians.

1120
00:49:50,620 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 3: All right.

1121
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:52,370
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about having you back. I want people to

1122
00:49:52,410 --> 00:49:54,450
Speaker 2: comment on here. In due time, we won't worry you out.

1123
00:49:54,489 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 2: We've done two shows recently. on like maybe five or

1124
00:49:57,860 --> 00:50:01,819
Speaker 2: seven or ten reasons why Protestants got it right about

1125
00:50:01,860 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 2: the canon.

1126
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 3: Okay, we'll do it.

1127
00:50:03,940 --> 00:50:05,890
Speaker 2: And the point would not be to stir up the

1128
00:50:05,930 --> 00:50:08,410
Speaker 2: hornet's nest, but the point would be that that's what

1129
00:50:08,450 --> 00:50:11,029
Speaker 2: you think is really true. Yeah. And that's what you

1130
00:50:11,050 --> 00:50:14,210
Speaker 2: think followers of Jesus should embrace, and it's an important question.

1131
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:16,620
Speaker 2: Comment if you want us to come back and have

1132
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,180
Speaker 2: that conversation, and in due time we will. But thanks

1133
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 2: for coming on. Thanks for a lecture at Biola. Always

1134
00:50:21,820 --> 00:50:23,779
Speaker 2: enjoy it. Folks, before you click away, make sure you

1135
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,830
Speaker 2: hit subscribe. We've got a lot of shows coming up.

1136
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,380
Speaker 2: We're going to keep revisiting near-death experiences, evidence for the Bible,

1137
00:50:29,820 --> 00:50:33,489
Speaker 2: intelligent design. I got some other tours coming up of

1138
00:50:33,530 --> 00:50:36,130
Speaker 2: some places that I think will surprise you. And if

1139
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:39,049
Speaker 2: you thought about studying apologetics, we have full classes on

1140
00:50:39,090 --> 00:50:43,549
Speaker 2: the stuff we've discussed here, soul scripture and canon. Information

1141
00:50:43,610 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: is below. We'd love to have you in person or

1142
00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:49,370
Speaker 2: distance study apologetics. We'll see you next time.