1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Life audio. I actually heard myself, and it wasn't just 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: the words, but it was the repetition of it, the effort, 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: the trying again and again. It was almost pathetic because 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: it was in that moment that I realized he's not listening. 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: And deeper than that, I realized he doesn't care to listen. 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 1: But he wasn't a stupid man. He didn't need my 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: six examples of endless explanations. He needed empathy, of which 8 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: he was completely void. 9 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Faith over for your podcast, where we 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 2: discussed powerful truth to quiet anxiety and fear big and small. 11 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,279 Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer Slattery and I'm discovering often the things that 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 2: make me most anxious and worked up that steal my sleep. 13 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: It usually has to do with relationships. And this provokes 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 2: an uncomfortable but important question that I wonder if you 15 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: ever wrestle with as well. How can we honor God 16 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: in a relationship when that is the very thing that's 17 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: keeping us stuck in and an interaction that's hurting us 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 2: or hindering our ability to fully yield to Christ. When 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 2: love starts to feel like an obligation, when it triggers 20 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: more anxiety than fulfillment where it's not joyful, when it 21 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 2: becomes emotionally draining. The Lord invites us to ask an 22 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: important question, Lord, is this truly what you want from me? 23 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: Is this truly how you want me to respond to 24 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: this relationship this person? To help us untangle this jumbled 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 2: mess of confusion and theology, I've invited mental health expert 26 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: and author Chris Reaes to join us. Chris, I am 27 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 2: really looking forward to this conversation and all the insights 28 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 2: that you're going to bring. 29 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: Oh thank you, Jennifer. I'm so blessed to be here 30 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: with you. 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: Chris Reese is a Christian author, speaker, and toxic relationship 32 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: expert who helps believers break free from manipulation, confusion, and 33 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: control without losing their faith or peace. Through biblical grounded teaching, 34 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: she equips people to set healthy boundaries and live confidently 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: in their God given identity. Drawing from personal experience and 36 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: decades of counseling, Chris offers practical, truth based guidance through 37 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: her books, courses, and speaking, helping thousands find healing and 38 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: lasting freedom. I know from having read your book, Breaking 39 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: the Narcissist Script, a Christian's guide to cutting the strings 40 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 2: of manipulation, setting boundaries that stick, and reclaiming your life 41 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 2: from takers. I know from having read your book that 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: your journey began with personal experience. 43 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: Correct Unfortunately. Yes, for the past two to three decades, 44 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: I have endured these relationships personally. I've studied them professionally, 45 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: and I examined them biblically. So yes, coming from a 46 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: lot of what I've lived and learned. 47 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, when did you feel like that most affected you 48 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 2: before all of your training and understanding, when you're like, Okay, 49 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: this is ah where I need to be. 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: Well, it actually began back in my about to be 51 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: second failed marriage. At that point, I really reached a 52 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: point where I was like, Lord, what's wrong with me? 53 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: What's going on here? What is happening? And it drove 54 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: me deeper and deeper into God's presence to really try 55 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: to understand how do I consistently end up with these people? Now, 56 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: there was a lot that the Lord wanted to do 57 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: within me, But a lot of times what we tend 58 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: to do is we tend to look at this as 59 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: either a them or an us. It's either me or them. 60 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: I'm either the problem or they're the problem, And there's 61 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: never a the there's always a mix that is taking place. So, 62 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: while the Lord was dealing with me and the things 63 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: that I needed to work on in my life, looking 64 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: back over my childhood, what had brought me to this 65 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: place of looking at somebody that was so arrogant and saying, well, 66 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: that's confidence. I'm attracted to that somebody that has so 67 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: little empathy and going, wow, they're very strong and stoic. 68 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: Where was that disconnect that was taking place in my mind? 69 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: And of course it went back to childhood, how I 70 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: was raised and all the things that I've learned to believe, 71 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: and the father wounds and some of the mother wounds 72 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: that were taking place. So while I was starting to 73 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: understand that, I was now learning really what the traits 74 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: and the characteristics of these people actually are. Because I 75 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: was the type that would take on more responsibility for 76 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,119 Speaker 1: myself even if you were the problem, I still felt 77 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: like it was my responsibility to fix you, so I 78 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: would now enter into this. So that's when it really 79 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: started to become an issue for me, and I left 80 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: a when I was biblically released from a nine year marriage. 81 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: I won't get into all the details. It was a 82 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: lot of toxicity. I was biblically released. It was not 83 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: something that I was casually walking away from without revealing 84 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: too much information. I finally discovered what he was actually 85 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: doing with his time and money, and the Lord said, 86 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,239 Speaker 1: now it's time to go. But that was after nine years, 87 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: nine years of toxicity and manipulation, and I learned a 88 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: lot about myself. In fact, I remember this one time 89 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: where I was standing in his office and don't know 90 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: what the conversation was about, but it felt like it 91 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: was just that thirty second time that I was trying 92 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: to explain the same thing, and I was calm, I 93 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: wasn't attacking. Remember I was trained, you have to come 94 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: at me with the right tone, with the right timing. 95 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: Everything's got to be just right. Or somehow it was 96 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: my fault. I chose my words carefully, trying to say 97 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: it in a way that I couldn't get blamed for. 98 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: And all I said was something like, this is what 99 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: you did that affected me, and this is why it matters, 100 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: and this is what I need. And I went on 101 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: to explain in depth with multiple explanations, multiple times so 102 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: he could relate or somehow even care and as I'm 103 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 1: standing there Jennifer explaining it again over explaining, something really 104 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: strange happened. I actually heard myself and it wasn't just 105 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: the words, but it was the repetition of it, effort, 106 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: the trying again and again. It was almost pathetic, because 107 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: it was in that moment that I realized he's not listening. 108 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: And deeper than that, I realized he doesn't care to listen. 109 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: But he wasn't a stupid man. He didn't need my 110 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: six examples of endless explanations. He needed empathy, of which 111 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: he was completely void, and no amount of explaining or 112 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: carrying the conversation was going to give that to him. Now, 113 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 1: you would think that that realization would have made me stop. 114 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: It's like, okay, I'm done explaining it. Didn't. I actually 115 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: kept going because somewhere inside of me and this is 116 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: the work that the Lord began to do in me. 117 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: I believed this is what love required of me, that 118 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: it was my responsibility to get him to see, to 119 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,119 Speaker 1: get him to understand, to somehow say it the right way, 120 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: so that something in him would finally shift, so that 121 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: his soul would be saved and our marriage would be salvaged. 122 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds like a pathetic fantasy at this point, 123 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: and I thought, if I if I stop trying, what 124 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: does that say about me? Yeah, and a loving wife 125 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: showing up right. 126 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: I've heard people say that. I think sometimes there can 127 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,919 Speaker 2: be a confusion, especially if you've spent any time in 128 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: faith circles. Confusion that if I just love them better, 129 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: then everything will be great. Love fixes everything right. 130 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: All you need is love, the most toxic song on 131 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: the planet. 132 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: But I think there's also this. So I was speaking 133 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: with someone who went through an imploded marriage. This individual 134 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: tried so hard to do all the right things, and 135 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 2: really it came down to confusion of I was told, 136 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 2: if I do X, Y and Z, because if you're 137 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 2: remotely healthy, I think it's really hard to conceptualize how 138 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: somebody can intentionally use. 139 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: Your words against you. 140 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: And so I think part of that disconnect is just evil. 141 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: Doesn't make sense to me, because you know, a lot. 142 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: Of times we have a tendency we accuse them of projecting, 143 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: and they do. They project a lot of their struggles, 144 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: they're evil, their quote badness onto us, and they accuse 145 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: us of the very things we're doing. What we don't 146 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: realize sometimes is we project our goodness onto them. We think, oh, 147 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: if I could just love them enough, because you know, 148 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: they're just not seeing it right. They assume that we 149 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: are just like them. We assume that all they need 150 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: is just a better explanation because they're good people, and 151 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to see that when you finally realize, 152 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: wait a minute, no, this is intentional. 153 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: Right, when you said that, that was profound. So the 154 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: unhealthy person projects onto the healthy person. So they are 155 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 2: constantly scanning the environment for how we're manipulating or using. 156 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: And then would it become a power struggle like fight 157 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: to win. 158 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: Well, they're not constantly scanning, however, they do pick up easily. 159 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: Projecting is more I'm taking my junk, and now I'm 160 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: going to accuse you of the very same thing. So 161 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: it's like I'm projecting it, so we deflect it. Okay, 162 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: I don't want this coming at me, so I'm being manipulated. 163 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: So now I'm going to accuse you of manipulating me. 164 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 1: Because now what happens is that puts you in confusion. 165 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: Now you're left defending yourself and what have you forgotten about? Well, 166 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: I forgot all about the fact that you were manipulating me. 167 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: So that's what happens with that projection, because they can't 168 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: sit in the shame, they can't sit in the sin, 169 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 1: meaning like I'm going to recognize I've done something wrong, 170 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: I'm now going to repent. I think repentance is a 171 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: curse word for toxic narcissistic people. They will not self reflect. 172 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: They can self reflect, they will not. So they're now 173 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: going to project that onto you. Because if I can 174 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: take that focus off of me, and now we can 175 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: put this on you, Now you're in a position where 176 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: you now have to defend, explain and I just deflected. 177 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: It's kind of like those I'm probably showing my aid 178 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: wonder Woman. She was like my favorite little superhero and 179 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: she had those wristbands on and everything was a deflection. 180 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: That's exactly what narcissists do. And that's exactly what dysfunctional. 181 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: You don't even have to be a narcissist, we don't 182 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: have to use that word toxic, dysfunctional, destructive. If people 183 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: they're going to look to push it outwards and we 184 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: can't possibly see that in the moment, so we think, 185 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: wait a minute, no, no, no, I'm going to project 186 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: my goodness back onto you because I'm a good person 187 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: at heart. I would never want to hurt you with 188 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: my words. I would never want to manipulate you. So 189 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: now I'm caught in this toxic cycle of having to 190 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: defend and overly explain myself, and we just go down 191 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: a quagmire where nothing gets resolved. 192 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 2: I'm reflecting on when you said you've had some issues 193 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 2: in your childhood that were affecting how you interacted with 194 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: people in your adulthood. I think that's partially what makes 195 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 2: it so confusing as well, is we can become trained 196 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: to doubt our reality, which then it's really hard to 197 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: recognize what's going on. I heard from one person who 198 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 2: experienced similar to you this and said that her husband 199 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 2: could gaslight her, but not her best friend, and so 200 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 2: it became a filter for her when she was in 201 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: that initial trying to make sense of everything phase. It 202 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: was helpful to her to have an unbiased outside influence. 203 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 2: But I think as we're to break through for those 204 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: who are raised in faith communities and part of you, 205 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 2: you're really wrestling as you listen to us talk, and 206 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 2: I get it because I've been there. So God does 207 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 2: tell us. And so I'm thirty four eighteen that he 208 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 2: draws near to the broken hearted. I imagine that was a 209 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 2: very painful marriage that would have been so lonely, and 210 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: I think that can be an indicator that something's not right. 211 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: But then Proverbs four twenty three tells us to guard 212 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 2: our hearts, So what do those look like together? What 213 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: might God be saying just in the course of relationships. 214 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: That's a great question because we have two sides. How 215 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: I'm looking at this now, God is draws near to 216 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: the broken hearted. This is going to be a healing 217 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: that's going to take place through him, by him, only him. 218 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: He sees the pain that you're going through. He sees 219 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: the confusion, he sees the frustration, he sees what they're 220 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 1: doing to you. He sees you, and he will bind 221 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: up your wounds. Not might, he will, He will heal. 222 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: He will make purpose from that pain. He will bring 223 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: life from the loss and beauty from the ashes. The 224 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: problem that we run into with a lot of difficult 225 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: relationships is now we start to even question God, where 226 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: are you, God, When are you going to do something? 227 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: Why would you have allowed this to happen? And we're 228 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: asking the wrong questions. One of the biggest questions that 229 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: we need to ask. It's more of a what what 230 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: are you looking to do? In me? What are you 231 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: looking to do through me? And when we begin to 232 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: switch from the why and the when and we move 233 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: to the what, we allow God to minister to us, 234 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: and it's no longer about the toxic relationship, it's no 235 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: longer about the difficulty, and we begin to recognize that 236 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: that's just something God's gonna use, whether he's using it intentionally, 237 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: meaning he planted it there with intention, or he's gonna 238 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:10,959 Speaker 1: take what the enemy meant for your harm and he's 239 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: going to use it for your good. Either way, it's 240 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: going to turn out for your good if you let him. 241 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: So we've got the God draws near and binds up 242 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: the wounds of the broken hearted. I can count on that, 243 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: I can rest in that, and I can just be broken. 244 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 1: But here's the bigger struggle that takes place is in 245 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: a lot of strong women. And I know a lot 246 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: of your viewers right now are listening. They're like, I 247 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: don't feel very strong, and men as well, And men, 248 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: I don't feel very strong. I feel more like the victim. 249 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: I feel defeated. And the truth is they're very strong individuals. 250 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: They're the ones that rush in and overgive, overserve, overfunction. 251 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: They fill in the gaps, pick up the pieces, which, 252 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: by the way, is what attracted the toxic people to 253 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: you in the first place. But I'm going to digress 254 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: on that one and let Jennifer decide if we want 255 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: to get into that later. But you step up into 256 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: this position of strength and hear when God draws near 257 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: to the broken hearted, my friend, it is okay to 258 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: be broken. We don't have to put a spiritual bandage 259 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: over a hemorrhage. God is going to take care of this, 260 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: be broken in his presence. Yeah, so that's God's part. 261 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: Let him do his part now. Proverbs for twenty three says, 262 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do 263 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: flows from it. Guard your heart does not mean that 264 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: I put up so many walls that nothing ever penetrates. 265 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: That's not a heart guard. That's an avoidance. You see, 266 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: Boundaries aren't about controlling others. They're about do iting what 267 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: God has entrusted to you. And I look at it 268 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: this way. We want healthy love, and that's where most 269 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: gets distorted. We interpret love as enduring, enabling, forbearing, and 270 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: that's how we interpret love. But we go back to 271 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: the song that we were just talking about most what 272 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: was the lyrics, need is love. Well, it's true if 273 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: we're looking at the agape sense of love, but when 274 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: we're looking at most of us have a very dysfunctional 275 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: form of love. I'm just going to keep giving, even 276 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: though it's enabling your sin. This is not what God 277 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: wants for us or from us. So now when we 278 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: get into Proverbs four twenty three that says guard your heart, 279 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: think of it as healthy love. Healthy love has doors, 280 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: but it also has locks. Yeah, so there are certain 281 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: people and certain things that we can allow to come 282 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: in and penetrate, and we can almost look at it 283 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: like a filter. So I have to be able to 284 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: keep the garbage out but let the good in. And 285 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: that's what guarding my heart means. So if now I've 286 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: let their lies penetrate my heart more than I've allowed 287 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: God's truth, I'm not guarding my heart. I'm not stewarding 288 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: what God is entrusted to me. And that's where we've 289 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: opened now a back door for the enemy to get 290 00:15:58,760 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: in and reacavoc. 291 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think also just as a caveat, I 292 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: guess for listeners, or maybe a word of encouragement. Sometimes 293 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: the God speaking to us part and directing us and 294 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 2: healing us. That can take so so long. I'm thinking 295 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: of one individual in particular. She was raised in a 296 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 2: really dysfunctional home and she was the scapegoat, and so 297 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: as she became an adult, all of her relationships felt confusing. 298 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: She had this pervasive idea that she was the problem, 299 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: and then she carried that over to God. I'm experiencing 300 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: tension in my relationship, and so I've got to look 301 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: over everything I said or didn't. I've got to confess this, 302 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: and it kept her in this shame spiral. But also 303 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 2: thinking in terms of that, as she was beginning to 304 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 2: learn healthier relationships, she needed to learn to pause in 305 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: her dysfunction a bit because she would have destroyed some 306 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 2: healthy relationships based on her own unhealed woundedness. So this 307 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 2: seems like it can take years to undo. 308 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: It can. On one hand, we serve a God who 309 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: can just come in and he is the most incredible 310 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: street sweeper that you could possibly imagine. I lived in 311 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: New York for a good number of years. We always 312 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: looked forward to the street sweeper as long as you 313 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 1: moved your car in time, but you know the streets 314 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: got cleaned, and God, it can come in and clean 315 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: up faster than years and years of counseling. One moment 316 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,479 Speaker 1: in God's presence can do more than a lifetime of 317 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: counseling ever could. But we also have that flip side 318 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: where if God wants us to go through this process, 319 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: we somehow get upset with him that he's not taken 320 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: care of it. It's not just gone. So God can 321 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: and sometimes he does come in and just wipe the 322 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: slate clean. And then there are other times He wants 323 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: us to walk through that process, that journey, and I 324 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: can only speak for myself. I know a lot of 325 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: those times is simply because I will end up right 326 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: back in that situation all over again because I didn't 327 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: learn what I needed to learn. I didn't heal what 328 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: I needed to heal, and he didn't reveal what he 329 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: needed to reveal. I just wanted God to take it away. 330 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: So if we're going through that journey, it's going to 331 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: be as long as it's going to be. But I 332 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: will say that if you want it to be as 333 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: short as possible, which I can't guarantee that's going to 334 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: be short, short, but if you want it to be 335 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: as short as possible, stay submitted, stay surrendered. 336 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 2: Aymen, I love that. We're going to take a break 337 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 2: to hear from our sponsors, and when we come back, 338 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: let's talk about how we can begin to recognize is 339 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: this healthy relationship? Is it maybe just a little unhealthy 340 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 2: but we can work through it, or is God saying like, 341 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 2: run as fast as you can so we'll be back 342 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 2: before the break Chris, she shared her story of experiencing 343 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: toxic relationships how God brought her through that. She discussed 344 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: the importance of guarding our heart and what that looks 345 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: like in context of relationships. And now for all of 346 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 2: you like me who are saying, okay, how can I 347 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: even begin to untangle that? In your book, you talk 348 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 2: a lot about recognizing motivation and intention. I think half 349 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 2: the time, especially if you came from highly dysfunctional homes 350 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: where you've been in a narcissistic or abusive or harmful 351 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 2: relationship for a long time, we don't always know our motivation. 352 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 2: So how can we begin to discover and untangle our motivation? 353 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 2: And how does that impact then our ability to perceive 354 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 2: relationships more clearly. 355 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: Excellent question with so many tentacles to her, So I 356 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 1: hope you don't mind some rabbit trails, and if I 357 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: go a little bit too far, just wrestling back in 358 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: a lot of times we tend to focus on why 359 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: do I attract these people, and we focus on their traits. 360 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: I got to recognize toxicity. I got to recognize culvert 361 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: narcissism and grandiose narcissism, and I got to recognize all 362 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: of these factors and wh well, that's helpful. I want 363 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: you to think of it more like how a banker 364 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: gets trained. This really surprised me years ago. I learned 365 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: that when a banker goes in and they go for 366 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: their training, you would think that they would go in 367 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: and they'd say, Okay, we've got a three day course 368 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: on how to spot phony money. This is what it 369 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: looks like, this is what it feels like, this is 370 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: what it smells like, and this is what you need 371 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: to do when you spot it. It doesn't happen at all. 372 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: What does happen is they are exposed repeatedly to the 373 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: real thing. So when you know what the real thing feels, tastes, 374 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 1: smells like, you can recognize a fraud from a mile away. 375 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: You don't have to worry about Oh, how do I 376 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,959 Speaker 1: recognize this? How do I figure this out? You know 377 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: the real thing? And that's where I think so many 378 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: of us fall short. The first thing we need to 379 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: begin to understand is what does the real thing look like? 380 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: What does God say a healthy relationship looks like. We 381 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: can do is jump over to say Timothy three, where 382 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: it says in the last days there will become times 383 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: of trouble, and it gives a litany of lovers of money, boastful, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient, 384 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 1: a litany of descriptions of people. And here's the punchline. 385 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: I love God's punchline. At the end of this scripture. 386 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: It says avoid such people. It doesn't say manage them. 387 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: It doesn't say love on them, bring them to church, 388 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: get them closer to the fire. It says avoid them. 389 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: A lot of times we step into these relationships because 390 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: they carry a familiarity to them. So if Dad was 391 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: abusive and spoke down to me, then I may not 392 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: like it. I may even vow, which that's another issue. 393 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: I may even vow I will never be with somebody 394 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: like that again. But here's what we need to remember. 395 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: We're still focused on the negative behavior. Instead of saying 396 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: I am going to be with a man who loves, 397 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: honors and cherishes me, we keep declaring I will not, 398 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: I will not, and we still keep following that path 399 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: and just fill in the blank whatever that will not is, 400 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: will not be with an alcoholic, will not be with 401 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: somebody who yells at me, will not And we still 402 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: end up with that person. Why because it's familiar. So 403 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: when it comes back in the same person with a 404 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: different mask, we're like, oh, the mask feels great, but 405 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: the undercurrent feels familiar, and believe it or not, that 406 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,479 Speaker 1: actually brings a little safety to us, as much as 407 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: we don't want it, because if that mask were removed 408 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: and we saw the ugliness, we'd be like, oh, no, no, no, 409 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: I don't want that, Which is why they're so cautious 410 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: in how they present themselves, especially in the beginning or 411 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: when they're trying to re establish the connection. And we 412 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: call that love bombing. But I'm so familiar with somebody 413 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: giving me an attitude. Is I got my snappy comebacks, 414 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: I know what to say, I know how to put 415 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: you in your place. I'm familiar with this, and we 416 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: end up in the same dynamic repeatedly. So how do 417 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: we begin to reverse This was your key question. I 418 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: got to understand what a safe, healthy, loving relationship looks like. 419 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: I love your original emphasis on connecting deeply and regularly 420 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: with Christ because we know He's going to love us perfectly. 421 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: I wonder also, if we're in a place where we 422 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: don't have a model for relationships and we're like, I 423 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 2: don't like the way my friendships look I don't like 424 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 2: the way my interaction with my boss looks with a 425 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 2: romantic partner. Did you ever when you were in your 426 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 2: transformation healing journey, did you ever start to look around, say, Okay, 427 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 2: that person over there they have really close friendships, what 428 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 2: does that look like? Or that marriage over there they 429 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: seem to really feel safe around each other and enjoy 430 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 2: each other's company, or even did you ever start to 431 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 2: look at like this my relationship with God when I'm 432 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 2: connecting with him, when I'm really in a place where 433 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: I'm connecting with Him, where I'm feeling his presence. Did 434 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 2: you look at like this is what healthy relationship might 435 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: look like? 436 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: Yes, but not until it was almost too late. 437 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 2: Okay. 438 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: I looked at relationships, even ones that were loving and healthy, 439 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: and I looked at them not as a what can 440 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: I learn from it, and more as in a see, 441 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 1: this is what's wrong with you? So I would point 442 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,399 Speaker 1: the blame outward. And while there was things wrong with 443 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: the other person, whether it would have been my husband, 444 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: my partner, pastor coworker, it doesn't make a difference. It 445 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: was always an outward because I took that behavior, and 446 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: I made this assumption that I was doing my part correctly, 447 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: and I was so far from it, so far from it. 448 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: I didn't realize how sinful it was to be in 449 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: that overgiving, overfunctioning, people pleasing almost state of being, because 450 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,719 Speaker 1: in Christian circles that's actually praised. Oh look how virtuous 451 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: you are, Oh look how self sacrificing you are, my friend. 452 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: It is coming down to one thing and one thing only. 453 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: It is pride, and it is ugly. And I had 454 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: it to the max and I would say, this is 455 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: what you're doing, and this is why I'm being controlling 456 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: in this relationship, because you're not stepping up and you're 457 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: not doing this. And while there may still be truth 458 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: in that, we also have to remember that this is 459 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: how the enemy comes in. He comes in with lies 460 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,640 Speaker 1: that are found it and grounded in some truth. Yes, 461 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: I did rise up and probably become more controlling because 462 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 1: he would not step up into a godly leadership position, 463 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: but that does not give me justification for now overriding 464 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: and not being in the position of what God's called 465 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: me to do. So there was a lot of work 466 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: that God had to do in me, and it wasn't 467 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: until after He had done a good amount of that 468 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: work did I look at relationships and go, wow, that's 469 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: what I was missing because my focus was no longer 470 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: on the other person, and where they fell short, it 471 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: was where I fell short. It was the dare I 472 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: say it, the toxicity I brought to the relationship, and 473 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: my toxicity may have been in response to theirs, but 474 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: I was still dancing the toxic tango. I still played 475 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: my part. So when I was able to now look 476 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: at these relationships with fresh eyes, I could do it 477 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 1: now with admiration and almost accountability as opposed to criticism 478 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: well they must not have this, or oh, well you know, 479 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: wait until this happens. It was kind of repulsive on 480 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: my part, But after God did all of that healing 481 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: and transformation. I was able to step back and go, Wow, 482 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: that's what a healthy relationship looks like, and here are 483 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: the components of that. And from there God was able 484 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: to build on that. It was absolutely glorious, painful, but glorious. Yeah. 485 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 2: I think for a lot of people to fear can 486 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: motivate them. I was speaking with a woman at a 487 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 2: conference and she was in a relationship that was not 488 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 2: good by any way, shape or form. And when I 489 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 2: was trying to talk to her about this, she just 490 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 2: kept saying, I don't want to be alone in my spirit. 491 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 2: I'd sense to question rising up, what if you staying 492 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 2: here in this position is actually hindering you from the 493 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 2: very thing you want most. But again that goes back. 494 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: I think we have to ask are we being motivated 495 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 2: by fear? Because first Joun fourteen says there's no fear 496 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 2: in love, not about in context of scriptures talking about 497 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 2: our salvation, but the premise hold's true. We don't have 498 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: to fear God because we know he has our best 499 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 2: in mind. And when you have that really good girlfriend, 500 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 2: you don't have to fear. You don't stay up all 501 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 2: night saying did I say the wrong thing. Did I 502 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 2: say the right thing? Are they going to be pissed off? 503 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 2: How can I make them not pissed off? So maybe 504 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: checking our thought spiral as would be your good indication 505 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 2: of what our motivation is going to be. 506 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that actually comes back to Second Corinthians ten 507 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: to five, take every thought captive. If we're not taking 508 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: that thought captive, it's going to turn into a spiral. 509 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: And the spirals, like you said, I just wanted to 510 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: hit on that for a second. The spiral reveals the problem. 511 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: It reveals what's going on inside. But we have to 512 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: be willing enough to be honest. I'm afraid to be alone. 513 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: I'm afraid God's not going to be able to bring 514 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: somebody to me. I'm afraid this person is gonna speak 515 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 1: ill of me. I'm afraid that they're going to leave. 516 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: I'm afraid that I'm going to be financially destitute. And 517 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: our fears drive us. We say we're trusting God, but 518 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: our fears are actually in the driver's seat. 519 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 2: Yes, your book, it goes into so much detail of 520 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: helping readers figure out what part of this relationship is unhealthy. 521 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 2: And what I especially loved was some of the things 522 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: that might be a manipulation where the person is seeming 523 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: like a saint but they're really the devil. I thought 524 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: that was super helpful, and you've got a lot of 525 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: boundaries in there. I bring that up because we are 526 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 2: coming close to the end of our conversation. It's been 527 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 2: really awesome, but I definitely want listeners to get the 528 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 2: book and maybe very briefly, an important aspect of that 529 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: you talk about in Christian virtues turn unhealthy and toxic, 530 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 2: and I would like us to end our conversation on that, 531 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: because there is an element of holiness to God led 532 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 2: self sacrifice. God led love is fulfilling and peacegiving and lovely, 533 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 2: and fear led love is exhausting and anxiety producing. How 534 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 2: do we navigate that complexity? 535 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: What's coming to mind for me is Tewod Corinthians ninety seven, 536 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: and it says each one must give as he has 537 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion. For 538 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: God loves a cheerful giver. Let's hang on at there 539 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: for a second. Cheerful giver, not a resentful one, not 540 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: an obligated one, not an exhausted, manipulative, fearlfilled one. He 541 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: loves a cheerful giver. A lot of times as Christians, 542 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: we think I need to give. You know, somebody called me, 543 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: I got to drive him to the airport. Doesn't matter 544 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: that I haven't slept well in a week, It doesn't 545 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: matter that I have this report that it doesn't matter 546 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: any of this stuff. Fine, I feel obligated. I need 547 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: to because that's what a good Christian will do. That's 548 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: not what God is looking for. He wants us to 549 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: be able to say yes and no. Is it Matthew 550 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: five point thirty seven? I think it is. Let you 551 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,960 Speaker 1: yes be yes, and your no be no. Everything else 552 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: comes from evil. So if I'm saying yes when I 553 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: really in my heart would prefer to say no, I'm 554 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: not walking in Christian love. I'm walking in people pleasing. 555 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: And we go back to now Galatians one ten, Am 556 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: I now trying to please God or please Man? If 557 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: I am still trying to please man, I would not be 558 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: a servant of Christ. So really this comes down to 559 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: the heart of David when he says, God, try me 560 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: know my thoughts, no my heart, test me see if 561 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: there be any wicked way in me. And we look 562 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: at that word wicked as if I'm doing something vile 563 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: towards someone, but wicked can be labeled as any thing 564 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: that is against God. If I'm walking in obligation, it 565 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: is not from God. And that's what we really have 566 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: to call back and be really honest with ourselves. Sometimes 567 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: it's even going to the cross and saying, God, I 568 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: want to be honest with myself, but I have been 569 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: in this lie for so long that I don't even 570 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: know what truth is anymore. Reveal to me the areas 571 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: where I am giving out of compulsion, where I am 572 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: people pleasing instead of God pleasing. Lord, reveal to me 573 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: those areas where I'm not loving well, and He's going 574 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: to be faithful in that. A lot of times we 575 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: begin to recognize it's not that God says, oh, okay, 576 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: this is codependent, but we do have that level of 577 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: codependency that comes in because I'm doing something for you 578 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: because I need you to and then fill in the blank, 579 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: I need you to be happy with me, I need 580 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: you to not be upset with me. I need you 581 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: to give me this, and then we have that codependency 582 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: that's going on. So we're not giving out of true 583 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: godly love. It really is coming back to the heart 584 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: of David and saying, God, show me my heart, show 585 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: me what's really going on behind the scenes, What is 586 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: really driving my actions? Is it true godly love or 587 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: is it more fear driven people pleasing. 588 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 2: Two thoughts came to mind as you were talking. I'm 589 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 2: thinking of some parents I know that have a tendency 590 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 2: to parent out of guilt and struggle with that. So 591 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,239 Speaker 2: I think you can use the insights you shared just 592 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 2: now with that and leadership I think can be really 593 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 2: difficult too to see where that line is as well. 594 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 2: And so again to our listeners, I would encourage you 595 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 2: seek out God, stay close to God, allow a little discomfort, 596 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: a lot of discomfort as you're navigating these new skills. 597 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 2: And again her book is Breaking the Narcissist Grip, a 598 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 2: Christian guide to cutting the strings of manipulation, setting boundaries 599 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 2: that stick, and reclaiming your life from takers. Let me 600 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 2: tell you a little more about the book. It's a 601 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: biblic practical guide for those feeling emotionally drained, spiritually confused, 602 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: and worn down by manipulative relationships. If you've tried everything, 603 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: you feel like you're unraveling. This book helps you recognize 604 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 2: harmful patterns through God's truth. With scripture based insights and 605 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 2: practical tools, Chris equips readers to set firm boundaries, regain clarity, 606 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: and begin healing not by changing others, but by allowing 607 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: God to restore your peace, your identity, and your freedom 608 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 2: to bring clarity. Because again, christ led love brings fulfillment 609 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 2: and freedom, fear based love brings anxiety, pain and fatigue. 610 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 2: This has been a very good conversation. I wish we 611 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 2: had five more hours because you've really got a lot 612 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 2: of great content in there. But to our listeners, you're 613 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 2: just gonna happy get the book. 614 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: Thank you, Jennifer, Thank you. It has been such a blessing. 615 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 2: To our listeners. Thank you for listening. I hope this 616 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 2: conversation gave you some insight into how to navigate some 617 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 2: of your most difficult relationships. Maybe helped you recognize those 618 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 2: that were challenging but not toxic, and those that maybe 619 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 2: you should be running from if you haven't already done so, 620 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 2: I encourage you to subscribe to this podcast. Then you 621 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 2: won't miss a single episode, And starting next Tuesday, we 622 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 2: are doing a series on relationships, How to love others 623 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 2: without losing yourself what scripture actually teaches about boundaries, responding 624 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 2: instead of reacting in difficult relationships, and finding peace when 625 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 2: relationships don't change. You'll definitely want to join us for those. 626 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 2: Make sure to share this content with others, with your friends, 627 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 2: your family members, maybe your small group, and make sure 628 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 2: to rate this podcast that helps others to find it 629 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 2: and it encourages me and Carol as well. Until next time, 630 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 2: may you live as one who truly has been set free,