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Speaker 1: Life Audio. If we leave each interaction and we feel

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Speaker 1: like we haven't been seen or we haven't been heard,

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Speaker 1: or we leave that situation we feel like we're always

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Speaker 1: being criticized, that's probably an indication that's not going to change,

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Speaker 1: and it's probably not going to be healthy for either

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Speaker 1: one of us.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Faith over Fear podcast, where we discussed

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Speaker 2: powerful truth to quiet anxiety and fear big and small.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer Slattery and today we're continuing, and today we

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Speaker 2: continue our series relational Piece, Loving Others without losing ourselves,

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Speaker 2: with a discussion on a topic I know has personally

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Speaker 2: caused me a lot of aids, and I wonder if

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Speaker 2: it has for you as well. Have you ever reached

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Speaker 2: the point where you realized a relationship wasn't changing, no

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Speaker 2: matter how much great explain for Gabe, hope or cry.

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Speaker 2: That is such a painful place. Part of you wants peace,

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Speaker 2: but another part fears accepting reality means losing the relationship entirely,

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Speaker 2: and you're not sure if your heart is ready for that.

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Speaker 2: I know that fear and pain. I'm worried that if

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Speaker 2: I stopped trying so hard, I'd fail the person I loved.

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Speaker 2: I've wondered whether accepting reality meant abandoning hope and beneath

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Speaker 2: all those fears laid alive that was leaving me stuck.

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Speaker 2: Matt Lie was that the health of the relationship rested

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Speaker 2: solely on me. I replayed conversations, second guest decisions, over

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Speaker 2: analyze myself, searched for the perfect words, and I wonder

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Speaker 2: if you can relate well. Today I have invited author

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Speaker 2: and neuropsychologist doctor Michelle Bankston, who's also a life podcast host,

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Speaker 2: to talk about finding peace when someone else's choices remain

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Speaker 2: outside our control. Doctor Bankston, thanks so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Jennifer, I'm glad to be back. I wish that

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Speaker 1: we didn't have to have this type of conversation, but

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Speaker 1: life is messy, and relationships are often one of the

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Speaker 1: biggest stressors because we all come to the relationship with

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Speaker 1: different backgrounds, different expectations, different ways of interacting. So I'm

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Speaker 1: glad that you're addressing this topic because it's one that

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Speaker 1: I hear people have concerns about all the time.

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Speaker 2: Yes. Absolutely, Doctor Michelle Bankson aka the Hope Concierge helps

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Speaker 2: people untangle anxiety, trauma, shame, and discouragement through neuroscience and faith.

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Speaker 2: A Board certified clinical neuropsychologist, best selling author, and host

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Speaker 2: of the award winning podcast Your Hope Filled Perspective. I'm

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Speaker 2: going to pause here because I recently listened to one

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Speaker 2: of your episode. I think for listeners could be a

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Speaker 2: great follow up to today's conversation, so I will link

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Speaker 2: to that in the show notes dealing with abandonment, rejection

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Speaker 2: on which often gets tied up into these issues. She's

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Speaker 2: passionate about help helping people discover lasting hope, healing and

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Speaker 2: freedom in Christ. She's also a wife, a friend, a mom,

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Speaker 2: a daughter who understands the pain of stuck relationships. So

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Speaker 2: even mental health professionals have complicated relationships. Michelle, can you

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Speaker 2: share a time when you since God was inviting you

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Speaker 2: to step back from an unhealthy or hearth full relationship,

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Speaker 2: weather that was permanently or until you saw clear evidence

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Speaker 2: of change? You know?

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Speaker 1: There are two examples that come to mind, Jennifer, and

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Speaker 1: they were handled in totally different ways. The first was

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Speaker 1: when my husband and I were hosting a small group

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Speaker 1: in our home. We were not leading, but we were hosting,

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Speaker 1: and it seemed like out of the blue, those were

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Speaker 1: who were leading decided that we shouldn't host anymore, but

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Speaker 1: there was never any communication about why, and it left

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Speaker 1: my husband and I feeling like, are we not good?

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Speaker 1: This is a way that we feel like we can contribute,

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Speaker 1: and it really hurt, and we harbored the hurt. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't until I'm ashamed to say, a year or two

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Speaker 1: later that I ran into this friend and finally had

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Speaker 1: an open conversation about what happened, like that was really

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Speaker 1: hurtful and she was really hurt well. As it turns out,

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Speaker 1: we misunderstood and had we gone to this other couple sooner,

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Speaker 1: we could have enjoyed the fruits of our friendship for

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Speaker 1: those intervening two years. But then, sadly, there was another

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Speaker 1: situation where a friend seemingly wanted to end the relationship

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Speaker 1: but gave me no explanation for why. What had I done?

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Speaker 1: I asked, what have I done to hurt you? How

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Speaker 1: can I make it right? Can you explain this to

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Speaker 1: me so that I can at least ask for your forgiveness?

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Speaker 1: And I was met with Heaven will make it right? Wow,

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Speaker 1: which was not very helpful, and so she broke off

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Speaker 1: the friendship to this day, I still do not know why.

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Speaker 1: And occasionally she pops into my DMS or she'll send

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Speaker 1: a text, and I'm still perplexed, Like you wanted to

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Speaker 1: end this relationship, but you keep stepping back in. So

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Speaker 1: I have hope for reconciliation one day, but I've also

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Speaker 1: moved on. I'm not going to let it steal my

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Speaker 1: peace anymore. I'm not going to let it consume my thoughts.

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Speaker 1: I've asked the Lord to reveal to me if there's

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Speaker 1: something I need to repent of to him, but I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to pursue it with the same fervor anymore.

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Speaker 1: And if she comes to a place where she wants

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Speaker 1: to share how I've hurt her, I'm ready to hear,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not going to keep knocking on that door.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love two things about what we said. So

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Speaker 2: in the first relationship, how it sounds like the heart

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Speaker 2: work didn't occur in a timely which we are there.

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Speaker 2: Hurt makes it extra hard to pursue holiness because there's

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Speaker 2: this lay self protection and sometimes it takes time to process.

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Speaker 2: I know for some of our listeners and their relationship

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Speaker 2: might be a narcissistic mom or an abusive dad or

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Speaker 2: an emotionally unavailable parent. It can be really painful in

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Speaker 2: those situations you talk about with your friend, did you,

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Speaker 2: or maybe even if not you, maybe you've seen this

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Speaker 2: occur where when we're in that place, especially when it's unclear,

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Speaker 2: I think that's when it is so easy to get

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Speaker 2: stuck in an anxious spiral of shame spiral. So how

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Speaker 2: can we process through that to recognize accepting the reality

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Speaker 2: without getting stuck in this spiral? I wish I had?

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Speaker 2: What did I do? How could I have done different?

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Speaker 2: Which is not helpful?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: That just raises up our defense mechanisms and tends to

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Speaker 2: add toxicity into the mix. So how can we navigate that?

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Speaker 1: You raised a good point. The more we ruminate on it,

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Speaker 1: the more are stay heightened, and we can't even begin

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Speaker 1: to look at the situation objectively. You know, it's a cliche,

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Speaker 1: but it is true that hurt people hurt people. And

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Speaker 1: in that second scenario that I shared in truth, she's

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Speaker 1: done this with other people, and early in our friendship,

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to see it. Okay, So I can

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Speaker 1: look at it and say there's a pattern. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that I didn't do anything wrong. I still don't

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Speaker 1: know what it is that she thinks I did wrong,

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Speaker 1: but there was a pattern, and for me, I've had

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Speaker 1: to come to a place of taking it before the

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Speaker 1: Lord because the Holy Spirit convicts us to help restore

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Speaker 1: relationship to God and weathers, and so if we would

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Speaker 1: spend as much time and effort taking it before the

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Speaker 1: Lord and saying, yeah, see the truth my part, show

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Speaker 1: me your compassion for this person who has cut me

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Speaker 1: so deeply, it halts the emotional spiral.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And God is going to answer that prayer because if

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Speaker 1: there is something that we need to repent of, if

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Speaker 1: he wants that more.

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Speaker 2: Than anyone, expand on that. I have one particular relationship

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Speaker 2: in my life that I am struggling with the acceptance

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Speaker 2: piece but feels like okay, I really want resolution, closure

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Speaker 2: with certainty. I think giving ourselves space that He keeps

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Speaker 2: bringing me this information that informs my decision so that

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Speaker 2: I can respond recognizing there are behaviors of patterns. I

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Speaker 2: like that you stress patterns and especially in how you

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Speaker 2: didn't want to see them. It is so easy to

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Speaker 2: excuse and justify when we're clinging to our idea of

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Speaker 2: something instead of what really is one thing I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to learn because it's hard, it's painful. But accepting reality

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean that we stop praying, that we stop hoping,

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Speaker 2: we stop pretending with what is actually going on. I

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Speaker 2: want to talk to the listener who is dealing with

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Speaker 2: those really deep complex maybe an adult child that has

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Speaker 2: gone off the rails, or a parent who is unhealthy

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Speaker 2: and doing behaviors that are not okay for them to

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Speaker 2: bring into their home or on their kids, and so

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Speaker 2: talk to me about the grief in that process and

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Speaker 2: the importance of that.

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Speaker 1: Our emotions are real and we have to acknowledge them,

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Speaker 1: especially if we want healing as far as the Lord

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Speaker 1: can provide that. I think that goes back to my

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Speaker 1: statement of take it before the Lord. The Lord can

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Speaker 1: handle our honest and real emotions, but it's all so

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Speaker 1: really important that we take it to the Lord. As say,

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling this way, I'm feeling grief, I miss the relationship,

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Speaker 1: or I grieve the loss of what never was what

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Speaker 1: I hoped would be in this relationship and it didn't

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Speaker 1: turn out that way. But I also acknowledge Lord that

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Speaker 1: my emotions don't always speak truth. And that's where I

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Speaker 1: need you to give me understanding. Scripture says for anyone

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Speaker 1: who lacks wisdom to ask God and he will lavish

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Speaker 1: shit upon us, And that has become my go to Lord.

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Speaker 1: I need wisdom in this situation. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: keep chasing after something that you, Lord might actually be

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Speaker 1: trying to protect me from, right, and that Another piece

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Speaker 1: of these sticky, messy relationships is sometimes the Lord brings

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Speaker 1: relationships into our lives for a season, and it can

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Speaker 1: hurt when those relationships are removed or broken off. But

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Speaker 1: sometimes God actually removes us out of relationship because it

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Speaker 1: is not healthy for us. But we also have to

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Speaker 1: remember that God loves that other person right as much

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Speaker 1: as he loves Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I think to the importance of grieving and recognizing

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Speaker 2: what we hope for that we don't receive. In my life,

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Speaker 2: there was one particular relationship where I was constantly fighting

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Speaker 2: with this person and tense and hostile, and when I

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Speaker 2: pull back, I realized, I'm fighting with them because I

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Speaker 2: want something they can't give me. Once I recognized the

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Speaker 2: reality of where they were, and I like your compassion

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Speaker 2: piece because God helped me see both their limitations which

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Speaker 2: were real and like you said the compassion that so

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Speaker 2: removing the anger, but it was a process. And I

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Speaker 2: want to speak on what you said going to God

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Speaker 2: for wisdom because some of our listeners, part of their

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Speaker 2: trauma mix is religious abuse and so for them, hearing

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Speaker 2: God is very confusing, very difficult, and they feel like

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Speaker 2: I don't hear him and that's painful. So I wanted

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Speaker 2: to emphasize God Kingdom does guide us even when we're

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Speaker 2: not aware. We keep turning our heart to Him. And

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Speaker 2: so to the listener, relaxed, trust God is leading. He

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Speaker 2: will lead you in a way that you can understand

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Speaker 2: and lead you towards your best as long as you're

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Speaker 2: orienting your soul to him. And then I also wanted

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Speaker 2: to speak to the listener who's really struggling to accept

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Speaker 2: the present reality of a relationship. Hold tight to this truth.

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Speaker 2: We can leave room for God's work without taking responsibility

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Speaker 2: for someone else's choices. And I would invite our listener

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Speaker 2: to prayerfully journal on this. We can grieve what is

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Speaker 2: missing without letting that loss define us. Michelle, in that

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Speaker 2: accepting and that ambiguity and uncertainty, for a lot of

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Speaker 2: our listener's shame is going to speak loudly and confuse everything.

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Speaker 2: And now we need to take a break to listen

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Speaker 2: to a short message from our sponsors when we were termed.

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Speaker 2: We're going to discuss how to discern what kind of

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Speaker 2: relationship we're really dealing with, how to determine the level

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Speaker 2: of access we want to allow, how to tend to

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Speaker 2: our soul in the midst of our pain, and the

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Speaker 2: importance and challenge of leaving room for reconciliation. So grab

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Speaker 2: a cup of coffee and then come back, ready to

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Speaker 2: anchor your soul in truth. We're back. Before the break,

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Speaker 2: we talked about the importance of accepting reality in our

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Speaker 2: relationships and grieving our unmet longing. Now let's talk about

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Speaker 2: discerning the relationship we're dealing with. Because I see two

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Speaker 2: extremes in this I see the denial piece, which I

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Speaker 2: tend to be there, the denial because I don't like

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Speaker 2: to think that people have faults. But then I also see,

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Speaker 2: especially in today's climate, a lot of fractures because there's

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Speaker 2: personality conflicts, and I'm talking family fractures. I understand friends

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Speaker 2: aren't always a good match, and that's okay, but between

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Speaker 2: parents and children, normal humanness becomes this really big Well,

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Speaker 2: now I've got to cut off the relationship. How can

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Speaker 2: we determine this is harmful behavior? This is a pattern

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Speaker 2: I need to recognize, and this is just something I

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Speaker 2: need to work on my own level of dealing with

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Speaker 2: discomfort and human imperfections.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I think is crucial in

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Speaker 1: assessing this, Jennifer, is to look back on our own relationships.

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Speaker 1: Because we're talking a lot today about the fracture in

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Speaker 1: relationships that are caused by the other person, but we

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Speaker 1: also need to look back on our relationships to see

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Speaker 1: if there's a pattern in how we have responded before

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Speaker 1: the break. We were talking about going to the Lord

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Speaker 1: and seeking wisdom, and I'm all for professional mental health

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Speaker 1: counseling and therapy at your job that want. But I

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Speaker 1: also know that the ultimate revealer of truth is our

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Speaker 1: Holy Spirit. So ideally you would be working with a

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Speaker 1: counselor or a therapist who invites the Holy Spirit in

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Speaker 1: and is seeking God's wisdom. It's crucial, though, for us

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Speaker 1: to look at the situation and to recognize this happens

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Speaker 1: in almost every communication. Both people come to this situation

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Speaker 1: with their own preconceived notions, with their own personality tendencies,

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Speaker 1: with their own way of reacting and responding to conflict.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I've been traveling a lot recently,

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Speaker 1: and I was in an airport and I thought to myself,

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Speaker 1: why is it that the woman's room is always further

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Speaker 1: away than the men's room. And finally the Lord got

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Speaker 1: hold of my heart. I was coming out of the

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Speaker 1: lady's room going back to my gate and he's like,

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Speaker 1: what do you see now? Oh, well, from this direction,

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Speaker 1: the woman's room is closer than the men's room. I

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Speaker 1: bring up that silly example because our perceptions shape our

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Speaker 1: reality and they shape how we respond. Once the Lord

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Speaker 1: was like, Michelle, all you need to do is change

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Speaker 1: your perception here and you'll see the world's not out

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Speaker 1: against you. But Jennifer, I think that's so important in

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Speaker 1: our relationships because our own previous hurts, previous woundings, previous

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Speaker 1: interactions will shape how we respond in current situations. And

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Speaker 1: that may not be fair, but the same can be

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Speaker 1: said about the person that we're struggling with. They're coming

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Speaker 1: to our situation, perhaps prejudging our motives and our intensions.

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Speaker 1: I love that scripture says to pray for your enemies

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Speaker 1: because it takes the focus off ourselves. But it is

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Speaker 1: one of the hardest things to do because when we

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Speaker 1: are hurt, we don't want the Lord to bless them,

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Speaker 1: at least I don't. When that friend broke off the

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Speaker 1: friendship and I had no idea why, As I was

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Speaker 1: praying to the Lord and saying what did I do?

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Speaker 1: What do I need to rep and how do I

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Speaker 1: repent when they're not willing to share with me? What

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Speaker 1: I sensed overall was you need to pray for her.

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Speaker 1: You need to pray for her. You need to pray

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Speaker 1: for her as if she's an enemy. And it changed

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Speaker 1: the emotional volatility.

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Speaker 2: Can you explain that a bit? What do you mean

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Speaker 2: pray as if she's an enemy?

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Speaker 1: She treated me as if I was an enemy by

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Speaker 1: breaking off the relationship, by not telling me why, by

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Speaker 1: not allowing me to come to the table and repent.

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Speaker 1: So she was treating me as if I went from

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Speaker 1: friend to enemy overnight. So I began praying for her

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Speaker 1: that the Lord would reveal truth about my intentions about

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Speaker 1: how I respond in relationships. I began praying that the

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Speaker 1: Lord would show compassion where she was hurting I began

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Speaker 1: praying that someone else would speak truth and comfort where

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Speaker 1: I clearly was not able to. And the bigest one,

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Speaker 1: the hardest one, is that I was praying that the

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Speaker 1: Lord would give me a love for her that mimicked

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Speaker 1: his love for her, because he loved her as much

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Speaker 1: as he loves me. And as I prayed that my

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Speaker 1: heart softened, I still wanted reconciliation. I still wanted to

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Speaker 1: be able to write the suppose it wrong, but it

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Speaker 1: allowed me to leave her at his feet. Say, Lord,

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Speaker 1: I'm never going to know all the details and what

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Speaker 1: went into this, but you do. And so I'm turning

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Speaker 1: this relationship over to you. If you want there to

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Speaker 1: be reconciliation, make my heart tender. Don't let me harden

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Speaker 1: my heart because I've been hurt, because that is my tendency.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to allow that to happen again by family, friend,

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Speaker 1: or foe. And so I'm still open to that, but

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Speaker 1: I'm leaving it up to the Lord to leave. I'm

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Speaker 1: not leading that pursuit anymore.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very important and to our listeners. In her

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Speaker 2: book Boundaries for the Soul Doctor, Allison Cook asks a

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Speaker 2: simple but important question that I wonder if you might

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Speaker 2: find helpful when you're evaluating your relationships. What do you want?

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Speaker 2: What type of relationship do you want to build? I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking particularly for those who you talk about patterns in

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Speaker 2: relationship and maybe if they came from a highly dysfunctional environment,

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Speaker 2: or maybe they've come out of abusive marriage or whatever,

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Speaker 2: that can impact the way we show up in the future.

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Speaker 2: And I wonder if that can be a reminder not

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Speaker 2: just of what we long for, but also and I

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Speaker 2: think this is so important for some of our listeners

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Speaker 2: to hear. You deserve to have positive, healthy, joyful and

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Speaker 2: fulfilling relationships. So maybe keeping a sticker of what type

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Speaker 2: of relationship am I wanting to build can help speak hope,

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Speaker 2: because healing off and begins when denial ends for ourselves

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Speaker 2: and for the relationship. And now let's talk about where

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Speaker 2: in this phase and we're going through our own growth

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Speaker 2: the journey, and we're trying to process. So how do

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Speaker 2: we discern how much of ourselves to open up, Like

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Speaker 2: we can love somebody, maybe from a distance, maybe up close.

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Speaker 2: Maybe there's certain things where like okay, I'll talk to

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Speaker 2: you about this, And so talking about access.

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Speaker 1: It's important that we consider how do we feel after

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Speaker 1: we've left an interaction with this person. If we leave

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Speaker 1: each interaction and we feel like we haven't been seen

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Speaker 1: or we haven't been heard, or their version of the

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Speaker 1: story doesn't measure up with what we perceive to be

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Speaker 1: the truth, or we leave that situation we feel like

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Speaker 1: we're always being criticized or gas lit. That's probably an

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Speaker 1: indication that's not going to change, and it's probably not

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Speaker 1: going to be healthy for either one of us. Healing

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Speaker 1: has to happen with both parties, but some are not

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Speaker 1: going to be open to that. You mentioned the narcissistic personality,

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Speaker 1: but there are so many traits, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: important that we recognize, Jennifer, that we tend to be

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Speaker 1: the most like the five people that we spend the

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Speaker 1: most time with.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And if we leave one.

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Speaker 1: Of those people interaction and we are more critical, we

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Speaker 1: are more negative. After we've spent time with them, we

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Speaker 1: are more sad or depressed or more anxious. That's probably

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Speaker 1: not a relationship that's ever going to change, but it

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Speaker 1: can change us, and not necessarily for the better. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying to cut off interaction, but I am saying

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Speaker 1: if that's not a productive interaction the majority of the time,

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Speaker 1: then it's okay to limit our access. There are plenty

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Speaker 1: of situations that you and I both know of, and

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Speaker 1: I am sure our listeners could attest to that are

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Speaker 1: truly abusive. Yeah, and God does not want his children

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Speaker 1: to be abused.

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Speaker 2: Yes, amen.

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Speaker 1: And so we have to look at relationships and ask

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Speaker 1: the question, am I safe here? They physically, emotionally, sexually, spiritually.

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Speaker 1: Because God wants to be our safe place, He's also

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Speaker 1: not going to fight our will, and so we need

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Speaker 1: to assess do we keep walking back into a relationship

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Speaker 1: that he would say is not okay?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And I want to pause here because I think there's

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Speaker 2: so much confusion. Right. I wasn't raised in the church,

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Speaker 2: and when I started getting plugged into church culture, I

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Speaker 2: was in a highly conservative denomination where the very first

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Speaker 2: Bible study I read said that women were never supposed

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Speaker 2: to tell their husbands no. Some of our listeners are

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Speaker 2: in environments like that. And there's one woman I know

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Speaker 2: that isn't an emotionally abusive marriage, and unfortunately, the advice

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Speaker 2: she's getting in the religion context where she's at from

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Speaker 2: my perspective is not healthy or safe, and so I

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Speaker 2: think it's important to consider what Michelle said. She's got

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Speaker 2: a close relationship with the Lord, she relies on the

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Speaker 2: Holy Spirit, and she's also got the education for mental health.

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Speaker 2: If you are in an abusive relationship and you are

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Speaker 2: receiving a message just love more, just try harder, just submit,

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Speaker 2: then I would encourage you to step out of outside

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Speaker 2: that circle for a minute and get the perspective of

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Speaker 2: somebody who's in a different context, so that you can

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Speaker 2: begin to evaluate it is my spouse, or my parent

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Speaker 2: or my child truly being abusive or are they just

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Speaker 2: being snarky at times, because we're all snarky at times.

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Speaker 2: And also, we discussed boundaries last week, so if you

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Speaker 2: missed that episode, I encourage you to go back and

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Speaker 2: take a listen. Healthy love requires wise limits. Wisdom determines access,

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Speaker 2: and love determined the posture of our heart. We're going

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Speaker 2: to take one more break to hear from our sponsors,

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Speaker 2: and when we come back, a very important part of

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Speaker 2: this for our own health and joy and peace, talking

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Speaker 2: about keeping our soul healthy when we are in the

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Speaker 2: midst of all of this pain. So we'll be back

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Speaker 2: into a minute all right, so we are back. You

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Speaker 2: had mentioned early in our episodes that this relational pain

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Speaker 2: can create bitterness. I don't know if we always recognize

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Speaker 2: how dangerous bitterness is to our well being. I would

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Speaker 2: love to hear your perspective. As a child of God,

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Speaker 2: but also as a mental health professional.

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Speaker 1: Bitterness is what locks up our heart and it keeps

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Speaker 1: healing from happening. It's one thing to acknowledge the hurt,

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Speaker 1: believe that we should and we should take that to

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Speaker 1: the Lord. But when we become bitter and resentful, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't hurt the other person, it hurts us. It can

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Speaker 1: play on an endless loop in our mind. And the

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Speaker 1: more we focus on what that other person did to us,

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Speaker 1: and the more we hope that they will feel the

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Speaker 1: hurt that they put on us, the more it hurts

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Speaker 1: our own emotional and spiritual well being. The key for

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Speaker 1: our own healing is to extend forgiveness. Now, I just

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Speaker 1: had my own listener right into me and say, but

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Speaker 1: I don't think I can ever forget. But that is

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Speaker 1: a misnomer. Extending forgiveness to another person doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: we forget the wrong, and in fact, sometimes I think

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Speaker 1: the Lord wants us to remember it so that we

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Speaker 1: don't walk into right potentially abusive situation. But what forgiveness

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Speaker 1: does is that I'm not going to hold on to

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Speaker 1: that emotional weight anymore, and I'm going to let the

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Speaker 1: Lord do because I can't deal with it. They're not

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Speaker 1: going to listen to me anyway. But the Lord is

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Speaker 1: in a position that he can take that hurt and

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Speaker 1: he can deal with them, just like he's going to

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Speaker 1: deal with me on the things that I've done that

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Speaker 1: are wrong. But I think sometimes we want to hold

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Speaker 1: on to that bitterness because we think it's going to

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Speaker 1: enact revenge.

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Speaker 2: Or protect us. I think sect us, yes.

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Speaker 1: Because we don't want to allow ourselves to walk into

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Speaker 1: a situation like that again. But in truth, what it

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Speaker 1: does is it hardens our heart and it keeps us

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Speaker 1: even from having a malleable heart that's open to other

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Speaker 1: healthy relationships. Right, It's so key is to surrender it

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Speaker 1: to the Lord and say, I can't handle this on

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Speaker 1: my own, so I'm going to choose to forgive, because

437
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: you've said if I don't forgive others, you won't forgive me.

438
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: So I'm choosing the act of forgiveness, and I'm leaving

439
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: the results up to you. And sometimes in those early stages, Jennifer,

440
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 1: we may have to do that. Yeah, And sometimes it

441
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: will seem like, Okay, we've forgiven, and then something will

442
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: come up and it cricks our heart again. Well, then

443
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 1: I have to choose again. I've already forgiven, and I'm

444
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: forgiving again that it releases us from that emotional and

445
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: spiritual angst. Yeah, end up having physical results on our

446
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: body if we don't let it go.

447
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 2: I would expand on that too. I've had in relationships,

448
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 2: like with friendships, where I'm kind of stuck in a

449
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 2: bitterness loop and next thing I know, I have been

450
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: highly critical with my husband and just critical overall, and

451
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 2: then it starts to impact the joy of our dates.

452
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 2: And we've probably all heard people they've been divorced twenty

453
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: years and every time we get together, we still hear

454
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: about their ex and so, like you said, they're keeping

455
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 2: themselves stuck and barring off joy and peace. I personally

456
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 2: think too, when we're stuck in that bitterness loop, it

457
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: makes it almost impossible to hear God's guidance on how

458
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: we can keep ourselves safe and experience joy and peace.

459
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: You talk about bitterness. I think sometimes with the bitterness

460
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 2: that anger, I wonder if it's almost a way too

461
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: I don't want to deal with this really deep rooted pain,

462
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 2: and so they might have to take time and maybe

463
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: seek help from a therapist to get over their bitterness.

464
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 2: Might mean grieving some things that they aren't sure that

465
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: they want to deal with, and a therapist can do

466
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: that very gently in a way according to your what

467
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 2: you're ready for. So I would probably say.

468
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: That And from a neuroscience perspective, what we focus on grows.

469
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: So if we are focusing on the hurt and bitterness

470
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: and resentment, our brain looks for more of that to

471
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: confirm that bias. But when we choose forgiveness, then all

472
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 1: of a sudden, our brain is looking for more peace

473
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: and more joy and more freedom. But we have to

474
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: make the intentional decision. And I think in this situation

475
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: that we're talking about with these fractured relationships, we do

476
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: have to come back to the fact that this relationship

477
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: does not define me, regardless of what they say, regardless

478
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: of what they have done, regardless of what they have

479
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: told other people that may or may not be true

480
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: about me. Jesus is the only one who gets to

481
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: determine my true identity. And Jesus has said, I am loved,

482
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: I am forgiven, I am the apple of his eye.

483
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: I am worthy of his love so much so that

484
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: if I was the only person on earth, he still

485
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: would have paid the price for my sin on the cross.

486
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: But I think so often, unfortunately, we allow our interactions

487
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: with other humans to dictate our perception of our identity,

488
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: and that may be part of why sometimes God says,

489
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: this relationship is no longer healthy for you. You're not

490
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: looking to me for your identity anymore. You're looking to

491
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: validation from this person.

492
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And going back to what you said about patterns

493
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: recognizing and maybe if you don't see this person, maybe

494
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: it's a parent. They live far away, so you don't

495
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: really see how they interact with people, but you can

496
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 2: tell by what they say. So if you're having a

497
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 2: conversation with them and they're constantly talking negative about other people,

498
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 2: then maybe you can step back and say, Okay, well,

499
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: this is their perspective of life. It's their limitation because

500
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: we all have them, we all have weaknesses and flaws,

501
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: and that can help us step back and say this

502
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: isn't me and maybe we can parse out like what

503
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 2: is ours? I'm thinking of Romans twelve eighteen says, if

504
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: it be possible, as far as it depends on you

505
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: live at peace with everyone. I look up those two.

506
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 2: If it be possible, as far as it depends on

507
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 2: you learning to separate what is ours, tending to our

508
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 2: soul what is not ours, absorbing their toxicity, I'd probably add,

509
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 2: we honor God when we tend to our own hearts,

510
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: and then in trust, like you said, outcomes to him.

511
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: And an important question to ask at this phase as

512
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 2: well that I have to ask myself in all of

513
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: my relationships, especially the hard and painful ones, who do

514
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: I want to be? How do I want to show

515
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 2: up in all of my relationships, but the prickly ones especially,

516
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: And this is hugely important. What growth steps might God

517
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: be laying before me to reach that goal? And when

518
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 2: I think about that, and I've mentioned on the show before,

519
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: I often think about Jesus on the night before his

520
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: death in John thirteen, and it says that basically he

521
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: knew who he was, he knew what he came for,

522
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 2: he knew where he was going, and so he loved

523
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: his disciples to the end. Including Judas. He rushed Judas's feet.

524
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: He was able to do that from a place of wholeness,

525
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: where Judas's toxicity, which was huge, did not turn Jesus toxic.

526
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: I think that's what we're saying. I don't want somebody

527
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: else's poor behavior to change who I truly am at

528
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: my core.

529
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: Well, and that's why I said earlier that I think

530
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: the biggest growth for me was coming back to the

531
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: command to pray for my enemies because I don't want

532
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: to be like them. Yeah, and I want to be

533
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: able to approach relationships recognizing that they come to our

534
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: relationship with a different background, with different hurts, having been

535
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: treated differently than I was growing up. But when we

536
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: pray for them, we put them in the Father's hands

537
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: rather than me trying to own everything about that situation. Yeah,

538
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: Jesus loved on the one who he knew was going

539
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: to betray him.

540
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: That's hard to like process, so.

541
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: Hard, but I believe he knew what was going to happen.

542
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: And Jesus said he never did anything that his father

543
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: hadn't told him what to do. And that's where our

544
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: communication needs to be first and foremost vertical with our

545
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: heavenly Father, and then to take the wisdom that he

546
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: offers in managing our horizontal relationships with each other.

547
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so now for the hardest part of this conversation, Michelle,

548
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: I think it can be really hard for some to

549
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: leave the door open for reconciliation, but doing so having hope,

550
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: a realistic hope that yes, God can change this, but

551
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 2: not a naive hope like I'm going to have this

552
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: conversation and then everything I'm just gonna explain it. Well,

553
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: everything's going to be great. And in this I think, actually,

554
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 2: let's begin here, because I think this is the hardest part,

555
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: especially for some of the listeners who really had some

556
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: unpleasant experiences in their past. I think one of the

557
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: hardest things is dealing with uncertainty and ambiguity. For me,

558
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 2: it's easier if I know, Okay, this relationship is over.

559
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: I can grieve it, I can move on, Okay, this

560
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: relationship is good, I can invest, I can build. But

561
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: that uncertainty when I'm still in that figuring things out,

562
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: or if I'm in a relationship like years ago my

563
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 2: husband I almost got divorced actually five years in and

564
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 2: that was a hard journey to undo where God's calling

565
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: you to invest, do your part to hope for reconciliation,

566
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 2: but you still don't know what the end line looks like.

567
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: So what would your encouragement be to listeners who are

568
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 2: navigating that really complex emotional realm?

569
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: First of all, and trust that relationship to him. Lord.

570
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: I'm giving you this relationship, and if this is one

571
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: that you want me to continue investing in, then I

572
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: need you to guide when, where, and how much. But

573
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: if this is a relationship that you have determined was

574
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: only for a season, then I ask you to close

575
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 1: that door, but I need your guidance on how to interact.

576
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: So going back to that example that we opened up

577
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: the episode with, where occasionally this person keeps showing up

578
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: in my DMS or sends me the odd text, because

579
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: I'm open that if the Lord wants there to be restoration,

580
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: I will respond, but I don't seek it out. I

581
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: don't initiate. The Lord can bring a renewal and a

582
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: reconciliation of that relationship if that is one that he

583
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: deems healthy for both of us to be involved in.

584
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: He knows. But where we get in trouble is we

585
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: decide how we're going to act that's where we go

586
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: wrong because we're reacting generally because how the relationship made

587
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: us feel right.

588
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 2: I can think in my own scenarios when I become

589
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: overly emotionally entangled, when that begins to happen, maybe I'm

590
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 2: pursuing too hard because I don't want the distance, or overreacting,

591
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 2: getting in that loop you were talking about. Sometimes giving

592
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 2: ourselves emotional distance can be super helpful. It feels like

593
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 2: emotionally detaching is unloving, but sometimes I think emotionally detaching

594
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: to a certain level can actually enable us to love better.

595
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on that.

596
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up because I have had

597
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: a relationship in my life, a very close one that

598
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: was not healthy for me or for my family, and

599
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: I as I took it to the Lord, I really

600
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: sense the Lord leading that the most loving thing I

601
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: could do for that other person was to step in,

602
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: because I was not going to keep getting involved, defending

603
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: myself trying to show what right he was doing. The

604
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: most loving thing I can could do is let them

605
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: be them and step right. Agents needed to be to

606
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: my safety and that of my right right, and that's hard.

607
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: The scripture that you brought up Romans twelve eighteen is

608
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: one that my boys would tell you. That was my

609
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: favorite saying when they were growing up, as far as

610
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: it be unto you, keep the peace, sometimes it's not

611
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: up to us.

612
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 2: Right with those two, it was up you know, they

613
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 2: were waiting teenage boys like, well, let's find.

614
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: They wanted me to take sides, and I'm like, as

615
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: far as it be unto you, you keep the peace,

616
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: do your part. But sometimes we can do as much

617
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: as we can do, and we have to recognize they're

618
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: going to choose whether or not they want to respond

619
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 1: to peace or not. But it doesn't mean we have

620
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 1: to keep stepping into the ring.

621
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: Right. That's a really good point, because reconciliation requires two

622
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: willing participants and faithfulness only requires one. And recognizing that

623
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: there's a little tension here, Jesus said, if your brother

624
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,720
Speaker 2: sins against you and returns to you seven times, forgive

625
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 2: them seven times. And then you later told Peter seven

626
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 2: times seventy or seventy times. Yeah, but there are some

627
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: people who will play the repentance card without actually repenting,

628
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: and so there's wisdom. And this is again I love

629
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: that you keep emphasizing seeking God's wisdom recognizing is this

630
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 2: person really pursuing change or are they saying what they

631
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 2: need to say to avoid numb, distract or whatever to

632
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 2: keep the train moving forward.

633
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: And that is key. True repentance will result in a

634
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: change in behavior. So if you are hearing the words

635
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: but the behavior doesn't change, it's time to walk away.

636
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,879
Speaker 2: But also change takes time. I can look at certain

637
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: behaviors even in my marriage, like when we were learning

638
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: how to communicate without tearing each other apart. It was

639
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: a process of first stopping ourselves in the argument and

640
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 2: then later learning how to pray in the middle of

641
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: our comp It probably took us five years to learn

642
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 2: how to communicate well. And so I just say that

643
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: seeing deliberate effort but also allowing for imperfect progress.

644
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: But in those five years, what I'm hearing from you

645
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: is that you each were making changes. Make you slip

646
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: up into old habits, yes, but overall you were each

647
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: seeing that the other person was trying to make you change.

648
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: I'm talking more about when the words are there, I'm

649
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: so sorry, I'm so sorry, the love bombing and all

650
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, but there's no outward indication that

651
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: their behavior is matching what they say.

652
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,919
Speaker 2: And then as we close, I would leave this thought,

653
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: you can leave room for reconciliation without putting your life

654
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: on hold. And advice I got from a spiritual mentor

655
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 2: when I was dealing with a prickly relationship, find life.

656
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 2: I needed to make sure I was getting some good

657
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 2: stuff in by doing life giving things. So I think

658
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: that's really important because we can get so sucked into

659
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 2: wanting to fix a problem that we don't actually fill

660
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: our soul well.

661
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 1: And it's important that we remember that we are in

662
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: control of our own responses and our own behaviors, but

663
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: we don't have control over the other person. And I

664
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: think sometimes we sacrifice ourselves in trying to be the

665
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: only one working on improving the gas.

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00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 2: Right right right as we close, So talk to me

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00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 2: about your book, Sacred Scars.

668
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: Sacred Scars is a book that was written to show

669
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: that God never wastes our pain, just like these situations

670
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: that we've been talking about today, Jennifer, it's so easy

671
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: to think that our painful experience, no matter what it was,

672
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: whether we're talking a divorce or an abortion or a

673
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: prodigal child, we tend to look at those situations sometimes

674
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 1: and think that they disqualify us, to qualify us from

675
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: God's love, from his worthiness. But what the Lord showed

676
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: me is that Jesus had his scars, and when after

677
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 1: he was crucified and resurrected, when he appeared to the disciples,

678
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: he still had those scars. And the Lord showed me

679
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: that he had to have those scars to prove that

680
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: he was who he said he was and that he

681
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: had done what he said he would do. And in

682
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: the same way, if we will give our pain to

683
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: the Lord, he promises he won't waste it. There is

684
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,919
Speaker 1: value in the pain that we've gone through if we'll

685
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 1: surrender it to him.

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00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 2: I love that. Thank you so much for joining us.

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00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: If you give one word of encouragement to our listeners

688
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 2: as we close, what would that be.

689
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 1: In the pain that you're sitting in right now because

690
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: of relationship difficulties. I just want you to be assured

691
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: that God is still working. He's working in you, he's

692
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: working in the other But he loves you as much

693
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: as he loves that other person. And as long as

694
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: he is still on his throne, hope does prevail a man.

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00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: Thank you. This was such a great conversation.

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Speaker 1: It's a delight