1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm 10 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: joined again by doctor Gary Edward Snicker, and we're going 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: to be talking today a little bit about Ezra Nehemiah. 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: And Gary's written a commentary on Ezra Niamayah the Front 13 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: that's coming out in the Baker Commentary series, so i'd 14 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: just encourage you to check that out. I would also 15 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: encourage you to go to his substack, carpentersstudent dot Com. 16 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: That's with two s's in the middle, Carpenter's Student dot Com. 17 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: And yeah, we're just going to jump in. 18 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: And one of the things I find when I teach 19 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: on Ezra and Nehemiah is that people are a little 20 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: confused about how these books actually work together. We have 21 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: a lot of these books in the Old Testament sort 22 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: of get crammed together because you know, maybe they don't 23 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: warrant a full class, or you know, you just want 24 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: to teach, you know, a few books at a time. 25 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: But Ezra and ne and Mayah is a little different. 26 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: And so Gary, if we can start there, what's the 27 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: connection between these two books and how do you think 28 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: about it? 29 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's a really great place to start. But 30 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 3: I even like the way from the question, like you 31 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 3: teach on Ezra Amayah, that's great. Not everybody does that. 32 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 3: They're they're kind of a poor step child in the 33 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 3: Old Testament. Well, yeah, in the New Testament we have 34 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 3: First Corinthians and Second Corinthians. Those are two separate letters. 35 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 3: Of course they are to the same people. But in 36 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 3: the Old Testament there's three books that we know of 37 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: as first and Second Samuel, first and second Kings, and 38 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 3: first and second Chronicles. Those are one book. Now, back then, 39 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: these scrolls. Scrolls are a pain, and so to make 40 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 3: them more manageable, they broke these huge scrolls into two 41 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 3: smaller scrolls, which the name first and Second Ezra Amiyah 42 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 3: is the same situation as that it's one story, one book, 43 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 3: but it's easier scrolling to do in two scrolls. Now, 44 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 3: when you know, we we we'd a w hold discussion 45 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 3: with this. The folks at Baker when they were they 46 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 3: actually called a meeting James. At their meeting, they decided, 47 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: what should we call this commentary, and they decided, let's 48 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 3: call it Ezra ne Amayah. But then even when they 49 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 3: brought it back to me, they brought it with an 50 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 3: n dash as that it was the Book of Ezra 51 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: through the Book of an Amiah. I said, no, no, it 52 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 3: needs to be a hyphen like, yeah, well hyphen and 53 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 3: I said, yeah, it's on the analogy and I explained 54 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 3: first and second chronicles and all that. Yeah, well, well 55 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 3: then it should be. And I said no, no, no, I said, 56 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 3: it can be first ez Amiah and second israni Amayah. 57 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 3: It could be that, but it's it's one book, and 58 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 3: so we need to sort of reflect that in the title. 59 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 3: And I think you're right. It gets treated as two 60 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 3: books usually in the English Bible. 61 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 2: It does. 62 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you have that hard division. Now you 63 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: have that in first and second Samuel too. But because 64 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: it's Samuel and Samuel, people tend to get the connection 65 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: Kings and Kings, chronicles and chronicles, you tend to get 66 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: that sort of continuity between the two. But with Ezra 67 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: and the Amayah, because you have the two different names 68 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: there and really two different characters dominating the narrative in 69 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: the different sets of book, it can feel like it's 70 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: two separate narratives. 71 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, but I think that we do ourselves at disservice. 72 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 3: It's already a very hard book to a in terms 73 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 3: of yeah, so if we if we break it into 74 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 3: a half book, then it becomes almost just obscure. So 75 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 3: it's it's it's very important to think of it in 76 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 3: terms of its coherence and unity across the entire book 77 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 3: of Ezra Nehemiah. 78 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 79 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: Actually, you only get sort of a partial closure at 80 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 1: the end of Ezra's main part, and I'm speaking of 81 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: the character Ezra at this point. You only get a 82 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: partial closer at the end of his main thrust, and 83 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: then you move into Neamiah. You have to almost wait 84 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: till the end of Neamiah to really get the whole 85 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: scope and understanding of what's going on in the overarching narrative, 86 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: and they do inform one another to some degree. 87 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's right, and I think the complexity 88 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 3: is something we've not attended to. My commentary has two angles, really. 89 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: I mean, it goes through a passage by pass is 90 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 3: like normal, but a couple of neglected things that have 91 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 3: really needed to be surfaced. And so there are things 92 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 3: I emphasize in my commentary. One is the bad ending. 93 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 3: It has a bad ending. But what's amazing in the literature, 94 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 3: and this is both in the literature for pastors and 95 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 3: Bible study guides and also even for the technical literature, 96 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 3: which is more familiar to Old Testament folks like myself 97 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 3: and yourself. The bad ending a few few people acknowledge it, 98 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 3: but then they deny it. They say, oh, it's an appendix. 99 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 3: The book ends in Neomiah twelve with the parade around 100 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 3: the walls of Jerusalem, and that's the major technical commentary 101 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 3: say this as Kenazi's and Williamson's and others. Right, So 102 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 3: there's there's just a surprising lack of treating the book 103 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 3: with a bad ending. And so it's very important to 104 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 3: think that this book starts on a high note. The 105 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 3: Yahwe's fulfillment of his word through the prophet Jeremiah, through 106 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 3: his servant, the Messiah Cyrus. It starts on this wonderful fulfillment, 107 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 3: but the book at its end leads to a bad ending. 108 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 3: And so I don't think that there's been amazingly adequate 109 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: study of this book within the framework of a bad 110 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: ending by the time we get to this end of 111 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: the book. Nehemiah, who I love Namiah, but he's well, 112 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 3: he's practically an American, but he's walking around Jerusalem. They 113 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 3: have the walls, they have Torah reading, they have Sabbath keeping, 114 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 3: but it's in everything's in full rebellion, and he uses 115 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 3: his goons to beat people up and chase people away 116 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 3: and scream at people and rip their hair out. 117 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: But we have the real. 118 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 3: Sense, like all of the collective reformations that we've seen 119 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 3: a series of these and Ezra Amiah, they're gone. At 120 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 3: the end. It's just Neamiah alone in his zeal And. 121 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 3: We say, if the exile was supposed to reform people, 122 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: it didn't work, didn't I mean, we need if God's 123 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 3: going to fulfill his word, if he's going to bring 124 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: to pass all that he promised he's going to have 125 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 3: to do it another way, and that really sets us 126 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 3: up for the profit that arises from Nazareth. 127 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: So I've looked at that bad ending for a long time, 128 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: and one of the things that I sort of started 129 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: just thinking about was the canonical arrangement of the Old Testament. 130 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: So English readers know that the Old Testament ends in 131 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: used to tell my freshman students Malachi, the last Italian prophet. 132 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: And so it ends in Malachi. 133 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: But the Hebrew canon actually ended with what we know 134 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: as Second Chronicles, and at the end of Second Chronicles, 135 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: you have this sort of looking forward and hope the 136 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: Jews haven't gone back to the land yet they haven't. 137 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: You don't see this quote unquote bad ending just yet. 138 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: It ends on a note of hope, looking forward to 139 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: something that's going to come. And I actually think that's 140 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: really helpful. It helped me when I was looking at 141 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: this bad ending and Emi to realize that even though 142 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: this is embedded and it's a little out of sequence, 143 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: and you know, it doesn't chronologically fit a clean narrative 144 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: across the whole thing, the Jews are still hoping for 145 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: more at the end of their cannon, and they have 146 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: this moment within as we Nemiah, where you sit back 147 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: and you say, yes, we're still hoping for more. Hasn't 148 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: come yet, but we know that it will. Despite the 149 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: situation we're describing here, I actually think the bad ending 150 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: is crucial to understanding what the Jews believe is happening, right, 151 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: But also obviously the theology that is being conveyed here 152 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: is that we're going to need God's intervention. Something else 153 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: is going to have to come in here. The law 154 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: is insufficient, the practices are insufficient, the cult is insufficient. 155 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: We've got to be looking forward to more. And I'm 156 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: just sort of, like I said, I don't know that 157 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: there's any sort of technical connection between all of. 158 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 2: That, but just as an early reader of. 159 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: These texts, that's where I landed when I looked at 160 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: that arrangement. 161 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 3: Well, good, we're kindred spirits in that. But it's the 162 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 3: literature is not that way. The literature that's out there, 163 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 3: in all its variety, is about a happily ever after 164 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 3: Hollywood ending, and so people have found a way to 165 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 3: ignore the way that Ezrami is. But I guess your 166 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 3: point is to put it in the context of the 167 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 3: whole Old Testament. Yeah, now the bhs U and I 168 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: guess they follow the the town the town with the 169 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 3: Babylonian town would and then Chronicles the BHQ. Once they 170 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 3: finish going through the editorializing of it, they're going to 171 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 3: put it in the order of the Leningrad Codex, where 172 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 3: Ezrami is actually last last. Yeah, so they're going to 173 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 3: kind of mess everything up both with n A twenty 174 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 3: nine is going to mess up the order of the 175 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 3: New Testament. HU is going to mess up the order 176 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 3: of the Old Testament that we're used to anyway. But 177 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: that's very interesting that the met that it is sort 178 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 3: of last because it goes after Chronicles, right, second, Chronicles 179 00:10:53,840 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 3: thirty six overlaps Ezra one. So that's right, sort of 180 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 3: as I is a good ending, but or is appropriate ending. 181 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 3: But then in the Babylonian Talmen, it's arranged the way 182 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 3: you say they put before Chronicles, and it ends on 183 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 3: this hopeful note, which is I agree with you that 184 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 3: there's this sense of we we know that Chronicles, you know, 185 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 3: the immediate sequel is going to end in failure, but 186 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 3: Chronicles is a good way to reach past that failure 187 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: that we already know about in sight and all those 188 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 3: among his people, let them go up to Jerusalem. Yes, 189 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 3: I mean that's that's that's the right ending. 190 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it isn't that this sort of in this moment 191 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: that people coming back to Jerusalem and rebuilding the walls 192 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: is the end of all things, Like we finally come 193 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 1: to this solution that we've always wanted, and we're back 194 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: from exile and every you know, it's all puppies and rainbows. 195 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: It's not that and they know that. 196 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: And so to end on this note of we've still 197 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: got to push forward, We've still got to look ahead 198 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: for what God is going to do with us. 199 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 2: I think is really. 200 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: A fantastic reading, and I don't fully grasp I'm with 201 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: you on the critical scholarship. I don't fully understand why 202 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: people ignore that last chapter of Nehemiah, because to me, 203 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: it fits so well with the overarching message that we see, 204 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: whether that's in the profits, whether that's in you know, 205 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: the rest of the Old Testament, or even in the 206 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: New you know, you even if you just look at 207 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: something like Ezekiel thirty six, twenty six and twenty seven, right, 208 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,839 Speaker 1: there is going to have to be something more than 209 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: just bringing you back from exile. 210 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: I'm going to have to change your heart from stone 211 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: to flesh. 212 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to put my spirit within you 213 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: to empower you to keep my laws in commands. And 214 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: so that hasn't happened yet, but we have clear evidence 215 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: that it needs to. And so to me, that Ezrai 216 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: and I ending fits with that sort of broader Old 217 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: Testament theology. 218 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: I suppose. 219 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, that's that's how Torah ends right across 220 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 3: the Jordan River. It's not in the Promise and propriat. 221 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 3: That's how we call it. The former prophets, the rise 222 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: in the fall of the Hebrew kingdom in Joshua judges 223 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 3: Samuel King. It ends in exile. Yes, Johoya chen is released, 224 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: but he's he's still just he's an exile. And that's 225 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 3: how the profits end waiting for, you know, the the 226 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 3: return of Moses and Elijah. There in Malachi as you 227 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 3: would say, or Alakai as we say. 228 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a there's an And I think it's interesting. 229 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: Is again, I don't want to go too far afield 230 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: from Mesmer and Yamaya, but I think it's interesting to 231 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: consider all of the different places where the Bible, I 232 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: wouldn't just say the Old Testament, but the whole Bible 233 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: leaves us in an anticipatory state. We're not in any 234 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: particularly different sort of state. Now, we're anticipating something that 235 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: is to come, but we're living within the groanings of creation, 236 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: waiting for you know, the glorification of the sons of God. 237 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: You know, Roman's aid has that sort of gesturing forward. 238 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: To Yeah, I don't want to get way laid in 239 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 3: the New Testament either, but you know, the whole idea 240 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 3: of the Lord rising from the dead and descending on high, 241 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 3: but his people are the marginalized and the just the 242 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 3: riff raff of society, if you will. It's not the 243 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 3: dominant culture. It's not until the Emperor is converted to 244 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 3: Christianity that Christianity becomes part of the prevailing culture. So 245 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 3: we come from a heritage that's upside down from the 246 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 3: way the whole Bible was. You know, we're used to 247 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 3: Christianity being the prevailing culture, but it's that's not the 248 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 3: way any part of the Bible is framed. 249 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: So if we skip back, just with that point, if 250 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: we skip back to the Jews coming back from exile 251 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: into Jerusalem, they are a marginal class. I mean, they 252 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: are being allowed to come back. They're not an autonomous 253 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: nation at this point. And Ezra recognizes this, knows that 254 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: it's not just about rebuilding the temple and the walls 255 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: and the you know, all those kind of things, not 256 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: just about being in the city. There has to be 257 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: something more. And so he begins teaching on the law. 258 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: How do you think about that entree into this, Like, 259 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: why is Ezra teaching on the law so significantly and 260 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: why does he touch on the very particular laws that 261 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: he does. 262 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 3: So let me just prebble a little further. Yeah, are 263 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 3: you asking me about Ezra nine and ten, the big divorce? 264 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: Ask me about Neamyah chapter eight, the reading Torah and this. 265 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: Let's go Nemiah eight first and then maybe we'll circle 266 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: back around to the other. 267 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. 268 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. So in nea My eight, it's it's really this complex, 269 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 3: and it's it's a really just one of the really 270 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 3: wonderful parts of all of scripture to be in because 271 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 3: they're studying scripture in such a vibrant way. So we 272 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 3: have neam I eight where they they read and study 273 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 3: scripture among the people, not just the priestly class, among 274 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 3: people for eleven days, and then in Namiyah chapter nine, uh, 275 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 3: the Levites lead the people in a scripture saturated prayer. 276 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 3: It's the the longest panoramic retrospective prayer all of scripture 277 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 3: that starts all the way at the beginning and comes 278 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 3: all the way up to their moment. And then Niamiah 279 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 3: chapter ten, the people in writing sign an oath, a 280 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,159 Speaker 3: solemn oath that they're going to obey. So only your 281 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,239 Speaker 3: viewers can see this. I'm holding my hands out right 282 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 3: now if you're listening. Torre says this. But then the 283 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 3: people say, no, no, no, we're going to do more 284 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 3: than this. I'm raising my hands a little higher. So 285 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 3: all of the things they promise to do are above 286 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 3: the standards that Torah calls the people to do. So 287 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 3: it's this really exciting moment of eleven days of scripture study. 288 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 3: They sort of revive the way they do tabernacles and 289 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 3: celebrate that they have. The Levites lead them to this 290 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 3: great prayer of confession, this retrospective sort of realigning their identity, 291 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 3: and then they promise to obey God and be faithful 292 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 3: to him, and they don't quite come out with what 293 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 3: they're asking for but it seems, probably from the retrospective, 294 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: that they're hoping that if Abraham was faithful and God 295 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 3: blessed him, we're going to be faithful, and maybe you 296 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 3: do a little bit of Abraham stuff for us. But 297 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:13,159 Speaker 3: it all begins there in Neam I eight with you know, 298 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 3: this exciting moment of Ezra reading Torah. I think, James, 299 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 3: what a lot of people don't pause to see is 300 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 3: that this is not Ezra's idea. The people say to him, 301 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 3: get the tourist scroll and read it to us. And 302 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 3: this isn't at the temple, this isn't the watergate. So 303 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 3: this is a public event. It's not a sort of 304 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 3: and it's not on a worship day. They do later 305 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 3: in chapter eight during tabernacles. They do have scripture reading 306 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 3: on the holy days as well, but it begins with 307 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 3: the people. It's their desire to study scripture. And so 308 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: we don't know of anything like this, this collective scripture 309 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: study for eleven days anywhere in scripture. The only thing 310 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,360 Speaker 3: that's close to it is maybe the early days of 311 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,719 Speaker 3: the Way and Acts. Yeah, but that's not focused as 312 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 3: much on scripture study as what we have here in 313 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 3: ezraneam Ale. 314 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, It's really fascinating as you think through the dynamic. 315 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: You know you talked about. You know, Abraham was faithful, 316 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: God blessed Abraham. Maybe if we're faithful, God will bless 317 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: up like key blessed Abraham. 318 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: Do you see in any of this. 319 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: Sort of a continued misunderstanding of what Tora requires, even 320 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: after the reading and even after the signed oath, or 321 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 1: do you see this as a genuine expression of we 322 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: get it, We want to commit ourselves to this teacher 323 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: even though. 324 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: They're not able to right you, how do you think 325 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: about that? 326 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 3: I think it's a mixed bag. But I want to 327 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 3: say it's no different for them than it is for us. 328 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 3: It's no different for them than it is for Jesus 329 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 3: followers or the Pharisees of his day. There's something to 330 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 3: our zeal and our desire. I mean, as Deuteronomy says it, 331 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 3: it's not too hard for you, right, It's there in 332 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 3: your mouth. And so there is a sense where tor 333 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 3: is given to as the ten Commandment says, all Yahweh 334 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 3: lovers obey scripture. But what we find ourselves is in 335 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 3: the camp of the Yahweh haters who put something before God. 336 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 3: And so I think that the people are not wrong 337 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 3: to study Torah and try to obey to her. I 338 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 3: think that Ezra eight nine and ten is just a 339 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 3: moment that all of us should embrace. It really is 340 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 3: a moment that shows the best of us, because I mean, 341 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,479 Speaker 3: these are the people that captivity is sort of waned 342 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 3: now that the Persians have taken over. But it's better 343 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 3: living there because living in Judah it's a wasteland. Nebukanzer 344 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 3: in his rage after the people rebelled once again in 345 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: five eighty two, this is four years after the fall 346 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 3: of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple when they 347 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 3: assassinated Gdalaya the governor, he came back and he decimated 348 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 3: the infrastructures. So when we look back, say to our 349 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 3: great grandparents generation of the Great Depression of the United States, 350 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 3: it's those three years in nineteen thirty to nineteen thirty 351 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,239 Speaker 3: three where it just marked the whole generation and we 352 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 3: still feel the reverberation of it in our current culture. Well, 353 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 3: it's like that, except it goes on for hundreds of 354 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 3: years in Judah. I mean, it's really tough living there, 355 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 3: and that's why when the people come back, they're the 356 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 3: best of the people, because they're leaving sort of their 357 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 3: stable ghettos and slave camps back in Babylonia where life 358 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 3: is predictable, and they're going to a place where they 359 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 3: don't know how they're going to provide for their families. 360 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 3: And that's why there's this special temptation towards intermarriage with 361 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 3: the established folks of the land. We find it all 362 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 3: these social destable, destabilizing moments in Deuteronomy and Joshua. There's 363 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 3: teachings for hey, don't marry unbelievers. It's tempting, but don't 364 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 3: don't give your sons to their daughters. Don't take their 365 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 3: sons for your daughters. Don't do that. And the same 366 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 3: temptation is there in Ezrane Amayah. And it's very understandable 367 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 3: because ancient people in an arranged marriage culture, they want 368 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 3: to help their children and they know that they're starving 369 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 3: and as Rene and I we know Neamiah five. Because 370 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 3: of the poverty, many people had to sell their children, 371 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 3: even their daughters, into debt slavery, and they can't redeem 372 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 3: their daughter's back. That's the nature of it. In Exodus 373 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 3: twenty one, so it's a very hard time so we 374 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 3: can understand the temptation to better their children by marrying 375 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 3: them into establish people as the lens A. It's a 376 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 3: tough thing because people tend to do the worst things 377 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 3: for the best reasons. Yeah, as the days of Zerniami 378 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 3: are no different in that respect than our own. 379 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: Let's tease out a little bit of that because I 380 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: think that again, whenever I've interacted with people on the 381 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: inner marriage issue, what inevitably comes up is, well, there's 382 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: going to be a religious or ideological drift that you're 383 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: supposed to stay away from these people so that you 384 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: don't adopt their foreign gods. Now I don't I don't 385 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: think that's wholly wrong, right. I think that depending on 386 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: what narrative you're looking at, that can actually be correct, right, Like, 387 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: this is what's going on here. It really has never 388 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: seemed to me that that's what's going on in Ezra. 389 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: It seems to me that there's something more fundamentally, there's 390 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: something more fundamental to Jewish identity going on there, and 391 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: to I would almost argue more theological going on there, 392 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,959 Speaker 1: not the adoption of foreign gods, but the development of 393 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: dependency on foreign nations as opposed to trusting the Lord. 394 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 2: What's your how would you now the gate through that? 395 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 3: Well, in terms of the big point you're making, I 396 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 3: want to embrace it. Yeah. The thing that needs to 397 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 3: be tweaked on the front end, though, is people just 398 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 3: read into the text. Ezraeyami is very careful as a 399 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 3: book as a whole, So I don't know if it's 400 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 3: made up of many sources. So the editor might have 401 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 3: author editor might have had to tweak them to do this. 402 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 3: But nowhere are the others defined as gentiles. Nowhere they're 403 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 3: defined as unbelievers. And so there's a sense of which 404 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 3: because there's a whole hodgepodge of people. And we need 405 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 3: to remember that the book of Ezraneami covers two hundred years. 406 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 3: The main narrative covers about one hundred and twenty, but 407 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 3: then there's another one hundred years there, and it's contemperous 408 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 3: with It begins with the Edict of Cyrus and goes 409 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 3: to the Rise of the Last Less, goes to win 410 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 3: Alexander the Great comms. So it's exactly on the Persian 411 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 3: Empire anyway. The point being here though, that the other 412 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 3: is ever present. There's an opposition between God's people Israel. 413 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 3: The aloistic Judeans. They are called many things in this book, 414 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 3: and the other the enemy of the peoples of the lands, 415 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 3: but it's the peoples of the lands, those peoples of 416 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 3: the lands. Some of them are Judeans who were never exiled. 417 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 3: Some of the people's the lands are people that were 418 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 3: brought there by that old Assyrian Empire who reshuffled people's 419 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 3: and they were exiled to Israel. Some of these people 420 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 3: are from the Northern Kingdom. Some of these people are gentiles, 421 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 3: and a lot of them are intermarried from any of 422 00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 3: these different lines of people. So the book never though 423 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 3: names them as foreigners. Even in Ezra nine to one, 424 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 3: the report of the leaders of Jerusalem that Ezra agrees with, 425 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 3: they say they act like the Canaanites acted. They don't 426 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 3: say they are Canaanites, and actually there's actually no such 427 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,199 Speaker 3: thing as Canaanites anymore, but they act like that, and 428 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 3: so it's a it's a very different thing. So that's 429 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 3: the problem is these non covenental others. And then getting 430 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 3: back to the really perceptive thing you said, when the 431 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: when the wives are put away and its wives, because 432 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 3: there is evidence in Neemia chapter six that Judean females 433 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 3: are marrying out. Okay, so it's it's both genders, males 434 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 3: and females are marriage. But it's a patriarchal culture, so 435 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,479 Speaker 3: there's no there's no apostasy husbands. There's only a positive 436 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 3: wives or apothecy husbands. Are you know you've already sent 437 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 3: your daughters out to them, they're they're dead to you. 438 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 3: But think about it again, in economic terms, there's evidence 439 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 3: from the Elephantine uh Papyri that we have that when 440 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 3: women left the marriage they take their dowries with them. 441 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 3: So anybody that's marrying to get an economic or social advantage, 442 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 3: when they're forced to divorce their spouses, they lose those 443 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 3: economic and social advantages. Yes, so it's it's not you know, 444 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 3: the women, they're part of an established society. They take 445 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 3: those advantages with them. So I think that we have 446 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 3: things a little bit backwards sometimes when we think of this, 447 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 3: and maybe one more point, and this isn't your question, 448 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 3: but it's one more like lingering thing in here. Yeah, 449 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 3: we tend to be very individualistic when we focus on 450 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 3: the personal things that happened to the people in these 451 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 3: mass divorces that happen over and over again. In Asrane Amayah, 452 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 3: Ezrani Amiah never focuses on the individual in the mass divorce. 453 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 3: They're all collective revival events, they're all collective repentances. Yes, 454 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 3: there are individual circumstances, and divorce is always painful for 455 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 3: every single one, but none of that's the issue. In 456 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 3: Ezranee Amiah. Yeah, there's this zealous social cultural it's the 457 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 3: whole society saying we need to get right with God 458 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 3: or God's wrath's going to break out upon us. That's 459 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 3: basically Ezra's prayer. And Ezra not Yeah, he's thrown himself 460 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 3: on the ground, ripping his hair out. The people are weeping, 461 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 3: and they agree, and they he doesn't come out with 462 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 3: the words, but he agrees with it. That check and 463 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 3: I says, then we should divorce our wives. And so 464 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 3: he uses language that's only used here. And in First 465 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 3: Kings eleven he says the foreign wives. Now the foreign 466 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 3: wives in First Kings eleven, same thing as an azrae Eliah. 467 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 3: It's not their ethnicity that's an issue. I think that's 468 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 3: not a problem because right you think about Ria Baum's mom, 469 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 3: the ammonitis, that's not an issue, right. The crown princess 470 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 3: from an amonitis. The issue is that these are marrying out. 471 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 3: These are marriage treaties that Solomon's getting into. He's they're 472 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: not converts, they're not assimilations. They're worshiping at the high 473 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 3: places to their own gods that Solomon builds for them, 474 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 3: all around the temple that he's building, so that their 475 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 3: dad's the kings of all these nations don't get upset 476 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 3: and come give Solomon any trouble. Solomon's the peace king, 477 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 3: and he makes peace in the bedroom with all of 478 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 3: these treaty wives. So anyway, that kind of got lost there. 479 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 3: But the point I'm getting at is, Amaya, there's no 480 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 3: there's no sense, there's no attention at all given to 481 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 3: the individual hardships of the divorces. The folks is all 482 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,719 Speaker 3: collective and corporate on God's wrath's going to break upon us, 483 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 3: and so we need to do this extraordinary thing and 484 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 3: hold a mass divorce. And they force the mass divorces 485 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 3: in some cases upon the people. 486 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 2: That is uh, that is why you wrote the commentary. Man. 487 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 2: I never I kind of missed that whole I knew it. 488 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: I knew when you when you raised first King's eleven, 489 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: second King's eleven. I was like, yeah, the foreign wives, 490 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: that make perfect sense there. I'd never caught it in 491 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: Azranya Mile like, I just hadn't thought through it. 492 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 3: Shaka and uses that term foreign women that's only used 493 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 3: in the plural there and one Kings eleven meam I thirteen. 494 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 3: Neamiah comes back around to that, and he says, when 495 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 3: he's ripping out the hair of the faces of these 496 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 3: men who are in apostate marriages again, you know, every 497 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 3: twelve years they have one of these big divorces. But 498 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 3: then in the end of Azni Amayah, neam I is 499 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 3: not getting a divorce, getting them divorced. He's just ripping 500 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 3: their hair out and beating them up and cursing them. 501 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 3: But he says to them, is this not what happened 502 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 3: to Solomon when he married all of these foreign women, 503 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 3: even he who loved, who was loved by the Lord 504 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 3: was drawn astray? Yeah, Neami puts words to it. 505 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 506 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: No, it's a great connection. No, that that helps clear 507 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: up so much and it's so much cleaner. Who was 508 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,959 Speaker 1: I reading? Jason Staples I think is his name. He 509 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: wrote a book here recently on dealing with the various 510 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: ways that israel Is used in the Old Testament and 511 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: then Judean is used in the New Testament, which was 512 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: really helpful and fascinating. 513 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 2: His argument was. 514 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: That the Israelites were not considered ju Dian, but that 515 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,280 Speaker 1: the Judeans could be considered Israelites. It was a subset 516 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: within and so just as you were talking through all that, 517 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: it's like, yes, that makes good sense. Like you've got 518 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: a covenantal structure. The people who are concerning are the 519 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: people who are outside of that covenental structure. They're now 520 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: being globbed on to covenantal people and creating this sort 521 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: of these sort of rifts and problems, which is sort 522 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: of fascinating. Man. 523 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 3: You've got it made. So podcasters like you get people 524 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 3: to come on their podcast. You're reading books before the 525 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 3: published literature, like already like me, like all hoy POLOI 526 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 3: we're all like ten years behind you. So you have 527 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 3: to have cocktail parties with all the podcasters that have 528 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 3: current conversations. 529 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 2: It's it's the only reason I do it. 530 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: Well, Gary, this has been really helpful, and I just 531 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: encourage everybody go get Ezra Niyamaya Baker commentary series. Baker 532 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: commentary on the Old Testament series Ezrani Amia is just 533 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say it's my favorite set of books, but. 534 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 2: I really do love them. 535 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,439 Speaker 1: I think I've always been sort of a narrative guy, 536 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: and so I started with Pentituke, but I've taught through 537 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: Samuel King's and as rahny A Maya and Ezrani and 538 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: Maya is just this fantastic moment after the exile, that 539 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: if we can get our head around it, we have 540 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: such a stronger understanding of what is really going on here, 541 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: what God is trying to do, how all this is working. 542 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: It's a fantastic set of books, and I think Gary's 543 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: commentary would be a great guide. So Ezra hyphen Nehemiah 544 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: is the title, and and you can find it on Amazon. 545 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: Also check out Gary's substack Carpenter's student dot com. That's 546 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,479 Speaker 1: Carpenter's with an S student with an S dot com. 547 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,439 Speaker 1: So two s is together there. And yeah, Gary, thanks 548 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: for being here, Thanks for talking to us through this. 549 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: Really appreciate it. 550 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 3: Thanks, Jams A real pleasure, especially with somebody who teaches 551 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 3: on Azerniamayah, that's that's exciting. 552 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 2: That is really exciting. 553 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: Well, I'm looking forward to getting the commentary, reading through it, 554 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 1: and teaching on this again. I think I'm going to 555 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: plan for my next set of Wednesday Bible studies. We're 556 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: doing Philippians right now, and then I'll flop them over 557 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: into Ezra Namayah. 558 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 2: They won't know. 559 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: What's going on, so it's going to be beautiful, perfect anyway. 560 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: We'll catch everybody on the next episode of Thinking Christian, 561 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: So come on back. We're gonna be talking a little 562 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,280 Speaker 1: bit about what is inner biblical exit. 563 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: Jesus next, I think, so you won't want to miss that. 564 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: I'll be back again with Gary and really appreciate everybody listening. 565 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 2: Take care. We'll see on the next episode. 566 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the 567 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on 568 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 569 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 570 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.