1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer and I'm 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: joined again by doctor Asheesh Pharma, and we're going to 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: continue our discussion about Biblical manhood and womanhood and masculinity, 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: effeminity and what it really means to be a male 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: disciple of Jesus Christ. And today we're going to be 14 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: looking at John Piper's Essay in Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: which is a book that was written some time ago. 16 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: A couple things before we dive into the argument. Number one, 17 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: the book has a lot of exegetical chapters. They actually 18 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: have full sections on the exegetical chapters of these various texts, 19 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: and so I'd encourage you if you want to see 20 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: an in depth look at each one of those these 21 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: texts that are covered in the book, Great pick it 22 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: up that written by strong scholars. Da Carson Wright's one 23 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: of them. Tom Shiner, I believe is in there. And 24 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: so they're dealing with these different texts. Piper does not 25 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: in his essay deal with all of these texts. He's 26 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,279 Speaker 1: making some assumptions about these texts. The texts in question 27 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: really are as he lists them. One Corinthians eleven three 28 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,040 Speaker 1: through sixteen, which is a passage about women and men 29 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: and head coverings, and there are a lot of interpretive 30 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: issues there about what's going on in that passage. Ephesians 31 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: five twenty one through thirty three, which largely deals with 32 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: husbands and wives. One Timothy two eleven through fourteen, is 33 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: also one of those that is heavily disputed. It's a 34 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: difficult passage to interpret. 35 00:01:59,240 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: There's this. 36 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: To women being saved through childbearing that no one seems 37 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: to know what to do with. But I would say 38 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: there's a lot of really good scholarship going on around 39 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: that passage. Now, a couple of the issues that I 40 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: have with these texts in relation to what they're trying 41 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: to do, which is construct a notion of Biblical masculinity 42 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: or Biblical manhood. The ones that are specific to husbands 43 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: and wives, I would say those are role based and 44 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: they don't really necessarily speak to men. They speak to husbands, 45 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: they speak to wives, and so whether that can be 46 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: generalized to women and men is a different question. Now, 47 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: there is an essay in the book I believe that 48 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: you Know talks about you know, if men are the 49 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: head of the family, they need to be the head 50 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: of the church, and so there is an argument for that. 51 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 1: But I would just say that in general, I have 52 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: trouble translating from husband, wife, or particular roles into a 53 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: notion of masculinity. And here's part of the reason why 54 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: I have that. It's because of the Master and bond 55 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: servant passages. I think when we look at the master 56 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: bond servant passages, if we were to start there and say, 57 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: can we extrapolate to an understanding of Biblical manhood from 58 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 1: the Master and bond servant passages, We're going to come 59 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: to very different conclusions than when we start at the 60 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: male female passages. And these are men in relationship to 61 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,959 Speaker 1: each other. Many times. It's not that there wouldn't have 62 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: been female masters or female bond servants necessarily, but there's 63 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: obviously also men in these relationships, and so. 64 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: What do you do with that? 65 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: These are two very different sorts of relationships, and if 66 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: we were to construct an understanding of manhood based on 67 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: these two texts, you're coming to very different conclusions because 68 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: a man is subserving it to another man presumably, and 69 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: is told to act in different ways, and so to me, 70 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: just some of these texts don't really relate when we're 71 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: trying to jump between men and women and husbands and wives. 72 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: I find that particularly difficult if are looking to build 73 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: an understanding of Biblical manhood. So I'll leave it there. 74 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: We'll we'll basically the structure of this episode. We're going 75 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: to go through and read a few of these different 76 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: passages and kind of talk through them a little bit 77 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: of what Piper says. We're going to try to give 78 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: the context and appropriate reading without you know, skewing him. 79 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: We don't want to set up a straw man with Piper, 80 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: and obviously he's written other things. This is a thirty 81 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: minute podcast, so we're gonna do what we can. Uh 82 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: ah I'll let you, I'll let you share your thoughts 83 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: before we jump in here. 84 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks James, thanks for that intro to sort of 85 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 3: the issues at play and what we're going to go 86 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 3: through era. I think it's important to note too that 87 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 3: we are not We just can't, as you said, go 88 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 3: through everything Piper says. And our goal is not to 89 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 3: say it's a it's either on or it's off, it's 90 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 3: yes or it's no. Everything Piper says it's either great 91 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 3: or everything he says it's awful. I think what you'll 92 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 3: find that we're being fairly critical the goals and to 93 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 3: say that everything's awful. There's a spectrum, as with most things, 94 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 3: that there are things that he says. He said, that's 95 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 3: a fair point. Many of them are observations, observations of 96 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 3: difference that are worth noting. Our goals aren't here to 97 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 3: completely collapse the difference between men and women. Our goals 98 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 3: are more what we tend to think of as social 99 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 3: understandings of gender male and female, to kind of question 100 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 3: the assumptions at play. There are the things that he 101 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 3: says that maybe we don't agree with, or maybe one 102 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 3: of us doesn't agree with and the other one maybe 103 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 3: does other Does you know, we haven't worked through every 104 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 3: single detail. That's not the issue either. There's some things 105 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 3: he says that we find pretty bad. Again, we can't 106 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 3: go through them all. But the goal here is really 107 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: ultimately to get to sort of the heart of what 108 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 3: is animating Piper to say the things that he's trying 109 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 3: to say. Where are his conclusions coming from. How do 110 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 3: those track vis the biblical text? Are things always as 111 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 3: simply biblical, straightforwardly biblical, as he might want them to seem. 112 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 3: I think you and I, James both think that probably not. 113 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 3: And those are the sorts of things we want to 114 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 3: get into. So what's at the core of what Piper's 115 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 3: doing rather than let's examine every single tree in this forest? 116 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, exactly. 117 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: Because I think I do probably agree with him on 118 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: the interpretation of specific passages, though I don't agree with 119 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: him in the implications of those passages. He tends to 120 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: draw more out of them than I would, and he 121 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: does that an awful lot. And because he tends to 122 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: root those in biblical interpretation, they seem to have an 123 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: authority that I don't really think they should carry. Are 124 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: interpretations that go beyond the text everybody does that. That's 125 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 1: not the that's not the problem. Everybody does this. The 126 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: question is how sure are you about these specific interpretations 127 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: that go beyond the text? 128 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: You know. 129 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: So the one that I usually like to use is 130 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: the Trinity. Right We don't find the trinity that language 131 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: in scripture, and yet we talk about the Trinity. We 132 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: don't talk about the humanity and deity of Christ in 133 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: scripture or the you know, homusia or whatever, right, Like, 134 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: there are certain things that we have developed into doctrines 135 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: that are that are aligned with the scriptures, but aren't 136 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: actually there in the text. They're not spelled out for us. 137 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: So the interpretive community does this all the time. We 138 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: pull things out of the text and try to understand 139 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: it and synthesize something out of the text that is 140 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: appropriate to the text, that emerges from the text. And 141 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: so I think that's the attempt that Piper's doing here. 142 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: It's just that part of the time what he's pulling 143 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: out is I think a little bit too sure of itself. 144 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: It seems like it's sort of if you don't believe this, 145 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: you're obviously wrong about biblical manhood and womanhood. So I 146 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: would sort of press back on the surety of his interpretations. 147 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: But then I would also question some of the things 148 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: that he tries to tease out of these texts and 149 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: out of a broader understanding of biblical manhood and womanhood, 150 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: because I don't think they would actually work, nor do 151 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: I think that this is what God's word is telling us. 152 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 2: So with that said, why don't we. 153 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: Jump into one and we can kind of give a 154 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: concrete illustration. So I want to start with one that 155 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: Ashishu actually brought up. It's his sixth comment on mature masculinity, 156 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: and I'm just going to read the sixth statement and 157 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: then a section of his work. Here he says, mature 158 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: masculinity expresses it's leadership in romantic sexual relations by communicating 159 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: an aura of strong and tender pursuit. And then he 160 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: goes down and he says, it will not do to 161 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: say that since the woman can rightly initiate, therefore there's 162 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: no special leadership that the man should fulfill. When a 163 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: wife wants sexual relations with her husband, she wants him 164 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: to seek her and take her and bring her into 165 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: his arms and up to the pleasures that his initiatives 166 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: give her. He goes on to say, consider what is 167 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: lost when a woman when women attempt to assume a 168 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: more masculine role by appearing physically muscular and aggressive. It's 169 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: true that there is something sexually stimulating about a muscular, 170 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: scantily clad young woman pumping iron in a health club, 171 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: but no woman should be encouraged by this fact, for 172 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: it probably means the sexual encounter that such an image 173 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: would lead to is something very hasty and volatile and 174 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: a long run unsatisfying. The image of a masculine musculature 175 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: may beget arousal in a man, but it does not 176 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: beget several hours of moonlit walking with significant caring conversation. 177 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: The more women can arouse men by doing typically masculine things, 178 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: the less they can count on receiving from men. A 179 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: sensitivity to typical feminine needs. Mature masculinity will not be 180 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 1: reduced to raw desire and sexual relations. It remains alert 181 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: to the deeper personal needsable woman and mingle strength and 182 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: tenderness to make her joy complete. 183 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: End quote. 184 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: What stands out to me in this association, then I'll 185 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: hand it over to you, is that there are a 186 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: couple things that bother me about this. Number one, the 187 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: typically masculine activities. Those words mean nothing. I mean, I've 188 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: been in the gym for years, Like I've spent countless 189 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 1: hours in a gym lifting weights. There are always women there, always, always, always. 190 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: This was not a typically masculine activity, right, Yes, she 191 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: might catch the men doing more like powerlifting and stuff 192 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: like that, but the women were always at the gym. 193 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: This is not something that like, women don't lift weights, 194 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: and so this masculine activity at a health club is 195 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 1: crazy talk. There are women powerlifters, there are women wrestlers. 196 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: There are women. I mean, my daughter's a gymnast. She's like, 197 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: she can do more pill ups than me, she can 198 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: do more push ups than me. She like she's good 199 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: at that because she practices it. She's in the gym 200 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: sixteen hours a week. Like this idea that this sort 201 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: of physique is somehow makes a woman more masculine. 202 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: Is crazy town to me. 203 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: But I would also say that, if I'm going to 204 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: be fair to him, what I think he may be 205 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,599 Speaker 1: referring to is sort of a flaunting of that physique. 206 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 2: Maybe, but that's not at all what he says. 207 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: Right, I've also been in the gym when you do 208 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: tend to see the flaunters, right, they're not really working out, 209 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: they're just sort of hanging out, right, that's men and women. 210 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: Quite frankly, it drives me crazy because it's like, get 211 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: away from my machine. But ultimately that's not what he describes. 212 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: He describes a woman who is scantily clad. Sure, which 213 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: that could mean many things to many people. 214 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: Right. 215 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 1: You know, tights are pretty common in the gym nowadays. 216 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever gotten aroused by a 217 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: woman in tights. It's just it is what it is, right, 218 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: It's Jim Garb, you know what I'm saying. So I 219 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: think overall this is a really deeply mischaracterizing narrative that 220 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: is just problematic on a number of levels. 221 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 2: So the idea of. 222 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: A typically masculine thing is problematic to me, and I 223 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: think ultimately just the overall context of what he's arguing 224 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: doesn't really bother me to say that a man should 225 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: attend to a woman's needs and a sexual encounter. Right, 226 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: that okay, But I don't see how any of that 227 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: really has to do with biblical manhood. 228 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: I'll leave it there. 229 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, my initial reaction is what what is going on here? 230 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 3: That's my technical reaction. So I think you're being kind 231 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 3: to Piper in the way that you respond. I think 232 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,359 Speaker 3: he says a little bit more, then you're kindly attributing 233 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 3: to him. Right, he's not talking. He's not talking about 234 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 3: the person who's there to say look at me, but 235 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 3: is not actually working out. He talks about the ripped 236 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 3: or toned muscles. I can't remember his exact wording. Yeah, 237 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 3: but he's talking about someone in such a way as 238 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: this woman is actually working out. And the implication is 239 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: because she's working out in this way that in some 240 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 3: way in his social imaginary makes her masculine. Okay, it's 241 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 3: therefore going to arouse some sort of sexual desire in 242 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: the mail, and in that process it's going to create 243 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 3: an environment that is purely charged sexually but does not 244 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: allow for a long walk with caring understanding of the other. 245 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 3: I just don't there's so many steps there that I 246 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: don't know where to even begin, to be honest with you, 247 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 3: you know, fallacy of false cause, as philosophers might say. 248 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like it's a scenario that if you 249 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: don't think about it too hard, you could go okay, 250 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: but once you dig into it, you're going No, none 251 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: of that makes any sense, none of it. 252 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 3: How does one lead you to the next, How is 253 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: it skill in for a woman to be working out 254 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 3: in a gym. There can be a lot of reasons 255 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 3: to work out in a gym. It could be it 256 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 3: could be the simple reason of this person plays basketball 257 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 3: and she goes into the lane and a bigger person 258 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 3: is able to knock her off her shot. The refs 259 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 3: aren't going to change or they're not going to call everything, 260 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 3: and so she knows that she's not going to be 261 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 3: able to finish her shot consistently when the defense is 262 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 3: taking their hedging their bets on the refs not calling everything, 263 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 3: so she goes to the gym. In fact, this was 264 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 3: my motivation in high school to start lifting weights. It 265 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 3: was entirely basketball related, right. It was I need to 266 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 3: put on muscle so that when I'm in the lane, 267 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 3: bigger guys can't knock me off my shot. I would 268 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 3: venture to guess that if you go to the average 269 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 3: women's basketball player, she'd say this same thing, especially those 270 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 3: who are on the smaller end. 271 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 2: Right. 272 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 3: But okay, the next implication from that, so if she's 273 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 3: in the gym and she's working out and a guy 274 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 3: notices her and goes up to her and talks to her. 275 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 3: This is going to then potentially begin a relationship based 276 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 3: entirely on the physical How does he know that? Why 277 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 3: is that necessarily true? Could? Could I offer as well 278 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 3: that I've watched enough of these David Attenborough BBC Nature 279 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 3: documentaries to realize that God has in fact made these 280 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 3: sorts of physical attractive attractions too, to be the impetus 281 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 3: for what ends up resulting in reproduction of a species. Right, 282 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: this isn't this isn't to human problem. In other words, 283 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 3: this is entirely present throughout the rest of creation. Where 284 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 3: you know, a flower looks better ostensibly so that it 285 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 3: can draw the bee to it. The bird pulls out 286 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 3: its special it's special colors that's hidden underneath its wings 287 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 3: and does a little dance quite literally, in order to 288 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 3: entice the female bird to say, yes, I want to 289 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 3: reproduce with you. Now, I think it's important to note 290 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 3: that we humans were made I think, quite clearly for 291 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 3: something more than just the physical. But that's sort of 292 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 3: denouncing of the physical attraction as an as as the 293 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 3: impetus for a relationship strikes me as very gnostic. You know, 294 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: this sort of ancient philosophy of away with the physical, 295 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 3: away with the material, everything's purely intellectual, which I think 296 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 3: has its own problems. To just say everything's purely that 297 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 3: could be a topic for another time. But then finally 298 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 3: to say that none of that can then lead into 299 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 3: meaningful conversation. 300 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: I think. 301 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 3: I think anyone who's been in a relationship long enough 302 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 3: realizes that whatever physical markers instigate the beginning of a relationship, 303 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 3: those physical markers never sustain a relationship. 304 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 2: Right. 305 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 3: A relationship that does not grow in some sort of 306 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 3: let's call it a spiritual intimacy for lack of a 307 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: better term, is a relationship that's doomed to failure. Right, 308 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 3: But one needs to look no further than the massive 309 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 3: relationships that we see coming out of Hollywood. 310 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 2: Right. 311 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 3: These are beautiful people, men and women both, and it's 312 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:52,479 Speaker 3: quite apparent that the beautifulness of these couples in and 313 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 3: of itself never sustains a single one of those relationships. 314 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 3: The relationships that survive, you get a sense, oh, there's 315 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 3: an actual kind there beyond whatever the physical was gave 316 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 3: away to something else. So I just think that the 317 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 3: moves Piper is making just on a basic sociological level 318 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 3: to make it don't make sense. Never mind that it's 319 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 3: not clear to me at all, and what respect any 320 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 3: of that came from biblical exegetical work, right, we have 321 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 3: we haven't even reached that spot. 322 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 1: And I think we haven't reached that spot because it's 323 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: not really there like he created. He doesn't argue it anywhere. 324 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: There's no sense in which I can't think of biblical 325 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: texts that really do relate to this, right like, they're 326 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: just not there. And so yeah, that is a big 327 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: part of this problem is that once we get and 328 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,719 Speaker 1: I'll just be transparent. Like Ephesians five talks about the 329 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: man being the head of the woman, so does First 330 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: Corinthians eleven, and there's a lot tied up with that 331 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: conversation about the head. But in my research, I don't 332 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: think that head can really mean source necessarily. I don't 333 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: find that that's the way it's used there. And so 334 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: my tendency is to say, no, it means head is 335 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: in authority. When we're saying that, you know, Christ is 336 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: the head of the man, Christ is the head of 337 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: the church. There is a positional authority that's occupied there. Now, 338 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: how do you tease out that authority. In other words, 339 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: what are the implications of that authority. We don't really 340 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: know other than what we see in places like in 341 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: Ephesians five, where we're told that the husband is to 342 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: love his wife. And this emerges from that sort of 343 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: very patriarchal culture where I think some of the best 344 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: research that's been done on this deals with cafale, which 345 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: is Greek for head, and from a medical point of view, 346 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: so in other words, the cafale was something you know, 347 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: there's a reason we wear helmets when we play football, right, 348 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: it's because our heads are vulnerable, and so you want 349 00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: to protect your mush, right, like you need that protection 350 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: on your head. Well, that physical understanding of head was 351 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: then pulled over metaphorically into families, and the head of 352 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: the household becomes like the head of the body, and 353 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: the whole household now sort of is oriented to protecting 354 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: the head, protecting the reputation of the head, protecting the 355 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: lifestyle of the head, doing what the head needs, right, 356 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: And so you've got this whole sort of structure that's 357 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: oriented to the man, the head of the household that 358 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: Paul is saying, no, okay, man's the head but that 359 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: doesn't mean what you think it means. Right, Christ is 360 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: the head of the church. Look what he did. He 361 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: sacrificed himself. He wasn't leading from behind. He was right 362 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: out in front, willing to sacrifice himself, willing to die 363 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: to follow God's will, but also to care for his church, 364 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: care for his people. And that's the way this headship 365 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: is supposed to be exercised. I say all that to 366 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: say I think Viper would generally agree with that understanding 367 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: of that text. Right, That head in that context doesn't 368 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: mean source, it means something of authority. My problem isn't 369 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: with that sort of reading of the text. My problem 370 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: is with everything that's drawn out of that. And so 371 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, I have this text 372 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: about the sexual encounter. There's another one I'll read here 373 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: that deals with breadwinning, which is just to me sort 374 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: of off base as an entailment of what headship is. 375 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: So let me just read this and we can have 376 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 1: a little bit of discussion on this one too. The 377 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,239 Speaker 1: basic idea he's arguing in this section is that the 378 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: man is to have this this general sense that it's 379 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: his job to care for the home, to protect the home, right, 380 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: and he says, let's say this man has a disabling disease. 381 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: I'll start from there, and it says, this is quote. 382 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 1: His wife may be the main breadwinner in such a circumstance, 383 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: and she may be the one who must get up 384 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: at night to investigate a frightening noise in the house. 385 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 2: This is not easy for the man. 386 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: But if he still has the sense of his own 387 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: benevolent responsibility under God, he will not lose his masculinity. 388 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: His sense of responsibility will find expression in the ways 389 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: he conquers self pity and gives moral and spiritual leadership 390 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: for his family, and takes the initiative to provide them 391 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: with the bread of life and protect them from the 392 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: greatest enemies of all, Satan and sin. 393 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: So there's this sort of. 394 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: Narrowing of what it means to provide and protect away 395 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: from the physical and just toward the spiritual. When a 396 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: man is disabled physically, and then he asks this, someone 397 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: might ask, so is a woman masculine if she is 398 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: a single parent and provides these same things for her children. 399 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: Are these only for men to do? I would answer, 400 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: A woman is not unduly masculine in performing these duties 401 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: for her children, if she has the sense that this 402 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: would be properly done by her husband if she had one, 403 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: and if she performs them with a uniquely feminine demeanor. 404 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 2: End quote. 405 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 3: I want to start with this last two words, go 406 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 3: for it. What in the world is a feminine demeanor? 407 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 3: Right that it's taking for granted the very thing he's 408 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 3: trying to argue for here, right, Yeah, it's begging the question. 409 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: It's very circular. 410 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: And so you get to this, like I find it interesting, 411 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, And Okay, let's say from within this sort 412 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: of perspective where the man is supposed to protect and provide, Okay, 413 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: you probably do have to make provision for people who 414 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: can't physically work, can't physically provide protection. But then doesn't 415 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: that automatically make them less masculine. It would almost have to, 416 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: like it's not even a it's not even a question. 417 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: It would almost have to make them less masculine from 418 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: within this perspective, if that's what they're supposed to be doing, 419 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: not just providing and protecting spiritually, which by the way, 420 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: any man could do whether his wife made. 421 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 2: More money than him less money than him, Like. 422 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: If if the woman was the breadwinner, you could still 423 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: have this exact same dynamic, right, And so the question 424 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: is if the man has to be the breadwinner, if 425 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: he's the one who's supposed to protect and provide for 426 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: the family, and that is his primary responsibility, like once 427 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: he can't do that anymore, how could he not become 428 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 1: less masculine? There's a negative there that I don't think 429 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 1: he's really dealing with. Now he does deal with the 430 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: absence of a man, right, and I agree with you. 431 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: What does it mean to be have a feminine demeanor 432 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: or to be unduly masculine? 433 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 2: Neither of those terms mean anything. 434 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 3: Right, it's taken for granted to content. You get the 435 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 3: sense at the beginning of the chapter he's very intentional 436 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 3: to make a point that he's he's rejecting cultural understandings 437 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 3: of masculinity and femininity. 438 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 2: Yes, and he's. 439 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 3: Appealing to the Biblical text to try to understand as 440 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 3: best as he can what the text says, and that 441 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 3: it's important for him to point out that the text 442 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 3: that he's appealing to aren't making cultural appeals, but rather 443 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 3: appealing to the pattern of creation. Right, at least in 444 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 3: this chapter, he doesn't really do the work to show 445 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 3: what's going on in those passages. No, but I think 446 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 3: it begs another question here. So he's thinking of places 447 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 3: like in Firse Corinthians where Paul speaks to the pattern 448 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 3: of creation in order to then to make his appeal 449 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 3: about husbands and wives. Right right, here's one of the 450 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 3: troubles to me. When you look at creation. We have this, 451 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 3: I think, very beautiful rendering in chapter two Genesis, Chapter 452 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 3: two of the man who is made from the dust 453 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 3: of the ground, the very breath of God, the spirit 454 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 3: of God has breathed into him in order to make 455 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 3: him a living soul, and then he's given to the ground. 456 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 3: Right the languages. There aren't certain kinds of plants because 457 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 3: there was no people to work the ground. Now he's 458 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 3: meant to work the ground. There are these animals, and 459 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 3: he's meant to name them, and among other things, to 460 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 3: learn in the process that they're not like him. Right 461 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 3: beyond mere superficial sorts of things. Of who striped horse 462 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 3: over there looks different than me. I'm not striped and 463 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 3: I'm not horse like like. There seems to be an 464 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 3: intimate understanding of knowledge, and God says it's not good 465 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 3: for this man to be alone puts him to sleep, 466 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 3: draws the woman from him, and then in that moment 467 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 3: we get the one moment of him naming, or at 468 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 3: least ostensibly quasi naming, right, bone of my bones, flesh 469 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 3: and my flesh. Yep, I shall call her ish in Hebrew, 470 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 3: I shall call her eshah. That's right, very very similar 471 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 3: to the English man woman. Right. But at no point 472 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 3: in any of that narrative does it say, then, and 473 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 3: here's what the role of the man is in the garden, 474 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 3: and here's what the role of the woman knows in 475 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 3: the garden. 476 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 2: Right. 477 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 3: In fact, it seems so insignificant to the point of 478 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 3: that passage as to not even be hinted at. 479 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: Right. 480 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, we move straight from there to ostensibly we finally 481 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 3: have the situation where things are full and complete and 482 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 3: rightly ordered, because we now have a man and a 483 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 3: woman together. 484 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 2: Right. 485 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 3: I don't mean complementarianism, but there's a complimentarity that's implied 486 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 3: between them, correct, Right, But where does one set make 487 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 3: way for the other set of complimentarity? No comment whatsoever. So, 488 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 3: now when Paul's picking up these sorts of things, and 489 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 3: this will get me to number two. So if one 490 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 3: was that the Genesis text doesn't actually say anything. When 491 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 3: Paul then makes us appeal, what is he trying to 492 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 3: get at? And I would argue that this is sort 493 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 3: of an issue of what some would call a social imaginary. 494 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 3: What I mean by that is the way that we 495 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 3: inhabit the world is shaped by a reality that pre 496 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 3: exists us that we then enter into. We've talked about 497 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 3: this before, but our kids speak the languages they do 498 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 3: with the idioms that they do for the reasons that 499 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 3: they do because of where they're born and where they 500 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 3: grow up, and that's the saturation around them that helps 501 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 3: them see the world that they do. 502 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: Right. 503 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 3: I grew up to immigrant parents, and at times in 504 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 3: a very immigrant community, and it was very important to 505 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 3: my father, who didn't speak English terribly well initially, that 506 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 3: I speak English well. He said, you will always have 507 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 3: troubles if you don't, and it was important to him 508 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 3: to put me in the settings where I could learn 509 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 3: to speak very well. But the thing he could not 510 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: give to me, and this speaks to the social imaginary, 511 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 3: was idiomatic expressions. And to this day, right several decades 512 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 3: into my life, I struggle with American idioms and I've 513 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 3: been in front of a class and I say it, 514 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 3: and the the kids in the class, kids that the 515 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 3: people in the class, they'll chuckle at me, and then 516 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 3: I realize, oh, I got that one wrong, or I 517 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 3: combined one idiom with. 518 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 2: Another, right. 519 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 3: I remember a friend of both of ours, who I 520 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 3: used to be a roommate with. He would he would 521 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 3: say an idiom or pronounce a word in a certain 522 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 3: kind of way, and like, I don't know what that is, 523 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 3: and there was a little chuckling session. 524 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 2: Right. 525 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 3: My daughter, one of my daughters, she did a unit 526 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 3: on idioms in school, and she came home and she 527 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 3: was so excited about them, and I was, frankly, I 528 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 3: was learning idioms from my grade school daughter. And the 529 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 3: idea of social imaginary play here is that I could 530 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 3: speak English technically masterfully, I could write it masterfully. But 531 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 3: something that couldn't be taught to me in this sort 532 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 3: of overt way was the idiomatic usage. And the reason 533 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 3: for that is because it comes from embodying a social imaginary. 534 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 3: And while I did have part of my social imaginery 535 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 3: in American schools, I also had a very large component 536 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 3: in my life embodied in a world that didn't know 537 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,959 Speaker 3: American idioms. And so they weren't commonplace to me, and 538 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 3: I didn't know them, right. I say all that to 539 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 3: say that that idea of a social imaginary, yes, I 540 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 3: think is inescapable, and that's not a bad thing, so 541 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 3: provided we understand that that's a thing. And this is 542 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 3: where I see some struggle entering into Piper, where Piper 543 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 3: is embodying a sort sort of social imaginary that has 544 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 3: ideas of masculinity and has ideas of femininity that might 545 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 3: have been produced, as we've said in the previous episode, 546 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 3: might have been produced for good reason in a certain 547 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 3: time and place. But the problem is is that when 548 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 3: we take that for granted as itself some sort of 549 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 3: universal fact of masculinity and a universal fact of femininity 550 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 3: such that it historically is even created issues of violence. 551 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 3: Right when the English first came to what we think 552 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 3: of as North America today, one of their justifications for 553 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 3: their treatment of the First Nation's peoples was, we see 554 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 3: these men and women in these First Nations communities not 555 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 3: operating the proper social boundaries of masculinity and femininity, right, 556 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 3: and as a result, that means that they're barbaric, they're 557 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 3: not truly civilized. They don't have They don't even have 558 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 3: the right starting place for nature, never mind the ability 559 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 3: to perfect that nature. And if they can't have the 560 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 3: perfection of that nature because they're starting in a barbaric state, 561 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 3: then they can't receive the grace of God in Christ. 562 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 3: Now Piper does not say all of that, but it's 563 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 3: the same sort of mentality and logic that's at play here. 564 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 3: Whatever it was, right, He even starts his chapter again 565 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 3: with here's who my dad was, and here's who my 566 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 3: mom was. And this was a wonderful and beautiful thing. 567 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 3: But it's not hard stop there, it's and this is 568 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 3: the way it ought to look for all men in ways. Yeah, 569 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 3: And the fact what flows out of that is the 570 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 3: rest of the chapter, the fact that it doesn't look 571 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 3: that way for all men and women creates and he 572 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 3: starts to name social problems that Honestly, I read it 573 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 3: and I think, how could you possibly know that those 574 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 3: social problems didn't previously exist? How do you know that 575 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 3: those social problems are a result of not living into 576 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 3: these ideals, these social imaginary ideals of masculinity and femininity 577 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 3: that you've brought to the plate. Yeah, you know, I 578 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 3: know that idiom baseball brought to the plate, right, And 579 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 3: and there's where the struggle comes in for me, kind 580 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 3: of at that core level. Yea, That it's not it's 581 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 3: not him just simply saying, here's one rendering of the 582 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 3: world for one group of people that is attempted to 583 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 3: embody in a particular place and time, this complementarity of 584 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 3: male and female. It's him saying, this way of doing 585 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 3: things is the perfect way of doing things, or as 586 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 3: close to perfect as we can get, and any deviation 587 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 3: from this creates all manners of evil. 588 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 2: Yea. 589 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 1: And I will say the portion that you are referencing 590 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: where he and I'm having trouble finding it here, but 591 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 1: where he talks a little bit about the genesis narrative, 592 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: he draws from the post fall genesis narrative to make 593 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: these normative statements. 594 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 3: So even as he says he's not doing that, by 595 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 3: the way. 596 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 2: That's right, but he is. I mean, the woman is 597 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 2: going to be the one that gives birth. 598 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: And you're kind of sitting there and scratching your head like, well, duh, 599 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: that makes perfect Like who else is going to do it? 600 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: And then you know, because the man is. 601 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 3: Donald Schwarzenegger and the movie Junior. 602 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: That's right, But because the man is punished with you 603 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: know this idea, because you ate from the tree, now 604 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: the ground will not yield it's fruit for you. 605 00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 2: Without this toil and labor. 606 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: Obviously, now the man is supposed to be the one 607 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: who goes out and does toil on labor. Well, you 608 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: could make that assertion, you could assume that the man 609 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: is going to do toil on labor, but I'm not 610 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: sure you can jump to say that. Look, the woman's 611 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: going to bear the children and then raise them, which 612 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: the text doesn't say, right, right, the one's going to 613 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:24,399 Speaker 1: bear the children sure makes good sense. And she's also 614 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: going to have enmity. 615 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 2: Of a serpent. 616 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: So I guess if you're a man and you're scared 617 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: of snakes, that's a problem, you know somehow. But well, 618 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: it's actually not her, it's her seed. So my snark, 619 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: my sark has have gotten away, and my good thegreating there. 620 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: But the idea is that when you get down to 621 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: the man and there's this toil that he's going to experience, 622 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: it's not exclusive to the man. Necessarily, there has to 623 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 1: be a symmetry within the narrative, right and so if 624 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: you look at the way the narrative is structured, you 625 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: do tend to see this. 626 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 2: The serpent is the first one, can then the woman 627 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 2: than the man. 628 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: Right as you've made We are doing lectures on on 629 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: Old Testament theology too. You should check those out and 630 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: we release them. But one of the points you made 631 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: at one point was it reverses the order of creation, right, 632 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: so the man, woman, beast. Now you're a beast woman man. 633 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: But it also mirrors what you just saw in three 634 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: to one. The serpent was the first actor that we 635 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: see in that narrative, the woman was the second, the 636 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 1: man is the third, And so there's a symmetry to 637 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: the narrative that I think he misses and then overreads 638 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: and extends well beyond what's actually there. It's similar to 639 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: a point that I had Krista mccurlan on for an episode. 640 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: She was talking about biblical authority, and one of the 641 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: points she made in talking through One Timothy two is 642 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 1: that in saying that when Paul says I do not 643 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,839 Speaker 1: allow a woman to have authority over a man, for one, 644 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: that's a very rare use of that term authority. 645 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 2: There. Usually authority is ex Usia that one author tain. 646 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: I think, I don't know why I'm saying that right exactly, 647 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: but it's a different word than next you see you. 648 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: But then she said something that I really hadn't thought 649 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: that much about was in precluding women from having authority 650 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,919 Speaker 1: and teaching over men, we automatically assume that the men 651 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: have the authority, which the. 652 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,240 Speaker 2: Text doesn't say. 653 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 1: Right, Paul could easily be addressing a situation where they're 654 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,759 Speaker 1: domineering women in the congregation and he's saying, no, you, 655 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: nobody gets the domineer. 656 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 2: Nobody gets this authority. This is not the way it works. 657 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: But we don't tend into account and so it's like, 658 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: there's all these little pieces that I think he's going 659 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,919 Speaker 1: beyond texts with that aren't really rooted in biblical text, 660 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: but he's making it seem like they're rooting in biblical texts, 661 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 1: and really where they're rooted is back where you're talking 662 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,240 Speaker 1: in this sort of social expectations that have been developed 663 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: within a particular sect and field. And I just don't 664 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: see that this way of arguing biblical manhood and womanhood 665 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: is particularly biblical, right, It's not bad sociology. Let's say 666 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: from a phenomenological perspective. I think he probably gets a 667 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: certain segment of the population right, and the way they 668 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: view manhood and womanhood. That's what I mean by its 669 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 1: decent enough sociology, but it's not biblical. And I think 670 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,439 Speaker 1: part of the reason it's not biblical is we'll kind 671 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: of discuss in another episode, is that I'm not sure 672 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: you can construct a notion of biblical manhood out of scripture. 673 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm just not sure you can actually get there. I 674 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: think there are too many I don't think the Bible 675 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: is doing that, and I don't think there's a sufficient 676 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: degree of passages or theologies that will allow us to 677 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: sort of extract it in the same way that we 678 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: do with certain other doctrines. So I'll leave it there. 679 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,399 Speaker 1: We probably should wrap this one up. Maybe I'll give 680 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 1: you the last word if you have any. 681 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 3: Well, I'd like to clarify unless in case someone misunderstands 682 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 3: what you're trying to say that when you say manhood, 683 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 3: you're talking about a social expectation or construct, right, And 684 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 3: I would agree with you. I don't think the Bible 685 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 3: gives you a social construct of this thing called masculinity. 686 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 3: A male will act like this will bench this many pounds. 687 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 3: Will we'll type this many words per minute, right, and 688 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 3: a woman will that the feminine will have this proportionality 689 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,800 Speaker 3: and type this many like that doesn't exist. Of course, 690 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 3: the Bible, on some sort of biological level, speaks of 691 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 3: the reality of male and the reality of female and 692 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 3: identifies them in ways as different. Yes, but I don't 693 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 3: think that that's really truly in doubt in any serious space, 694 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 3: even where it might seem like it. I think that 695 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 3: the biological reality is not ultimately what's truly in doubt 696 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 3: in any space. It's that social formation that you're talking about. 697 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 2: That's right. 698 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 1: George Will has this great quote, and I'm going to 699 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: butcher it, but he wrote in the preface to his 700 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,720 Speaker 1: book The Pursuit of Happiness and Other Sobering Thoughts, which 701 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: I love that title. He writes, male and female are 702 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: biological facts. 703 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,359 Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen are social constructs. 704 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,239 Speaker 1: They are they embody the wise laws of the civilization 705 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: that they're in. And then he goes on to say, 706 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: and that is why statecraft will always be soul craft. 707 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: And I think it's just a really good distinction. Male 708 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: and female are biological facts. There's no like, we're not 709 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: trying to collapse that. But there's this other thread. Ladies 710 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 1: and gentlemen, right, those carry a social weight that I'm 711 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: arguing you wouldn't really find in the Bible, and that 712 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 1: I think Piper is having difficulties showing how they would 713 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: arise from the Bible in this chapter. 714 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 2: We're always going to have those. 715 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,320 Speaker 1: The question is whether we should embrace them as Christians 716 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: or try to push against them. The question is whether 717 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,479 Speaker 1: they set up a standard other than Christ that we're 718 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: called to live up to, or whether we could coincidentally 719 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: sort of live into some of those as we pursue 720 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: and formula with Christ. And to me, I think that's 721 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 1: a really important distinction for Christians to make. So I 722 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,840 Speaker 1: don't know whether you agree with that, but yeah, the 723 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:51,399 Speaker 1: last word. 724 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 3: Oh I gave the last word. I thought, yeah, I know, 725 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,920 Speaker 3: I'm good. I appreciate the clarity that you're bringing in there. 726 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,960 Speaker 2: All right, everybody, we'll wrap it up. 727 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: We're gonna deal with one more scholar who's written on 728 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 1: these issues in the next episode, so come on back. 729 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: We'll take a look at what he has to say 730 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 1: and address some of the issues that we're seeing in 731 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:13,720 Speaker 1: his text. 732 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:14,280 Speaker 2: As well. 733 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: Hope you enjoyed this and hopefully it's helpful and join 734 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: us next time on Thinking Christian Take Care. I just 735 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the team at 736 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,760 Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking 737 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,879 Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll 738 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 739 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.