1 00:00:02,700 --> 00:00:03,540 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,660 --> 00:00:08,379 Speaker 2: Time and time again in conversation and online, I've had 3 00:00:08,619 --> 00:00:11,539 Speaker 2: LDS friends I've talked with, I've had atheists discount the 4 00:00:11,580 --> 00:00:15,730 Speaker 2: resurrection appearances and say evangelicals are inconsistent because we accept 5 00:00:15,750 --> 00:00:17,510 Speaker 2: what's in the Bible, but not the Book of Mormon. 6 00:00:17,670 --> 00:00:21,390 Speaker 1: The broader picture here is that, as you're mentioning here, 7 00:00:21,510 --> 00:00:24,870 Speaker 1: on the one hand, Mormons are arguing that Christians are 8 00:00:24,890 --> 00:00:29,140 Speaker 1: being inconsistent because they accept the testimonies of the Gospels 9 00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:33,060 Speaker 1: that these various individuals saw Jesus alive after his death. 10 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,460 Speaker 1: But they don't accept Joseph Smith's claim that he saw 11 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: the risen Christ in what is known as the first vision, 12 00:00:39,659 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: or that the eleven witnesses saw the gold plates. And 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: so the Mormons argue, this is on the one hand, 14 00:00:46,060 --> 00:00:49,430 Speaker 1: that all of this is just a gross inconsistency on 15 00:00:49,450 --> 00:00:52,150 Speaker 1: the part of Christians who accept the New Testament accounts, 16 00:00:52,310 --> 00:00:55,590 Speaker 1: but not that of Joseph Smith and his eleven comrades. 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,540 Speaker 2: Are the 11 witnesses for the Book of Mormon as 18 00:00:59,620 --> 00:01:03,340 Speaker 2: reliable as the witnesses for the resurrection of Jesus? If 19 00:01:03,380 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 2: we accept the biblical account that Jesus appeared to his disciples, 20 00:01:07,340 --> 00:01:10,209 Speaker 2: do we need to accept the first witnesses to the plates? 21 00:01:10,770 --> 00:01:16,370 Speaker 2: Both LDS and atheist apologists have called evangelicals inconsistent in 22 00:01:16,390 --> 00:01:19,790 Speaker 2: their rejection of the 11 witnesses listed at the beginning 23 00:01:19,950 --> 00:01:23,130 Speaker 2: of the Book of Mormon. Our guest today, Dr. Rob Bowman, 24 00:01:23,209 --> 00:01:26,970 Speaker 2: is an expert on both Latter-day Saint theology and history 25 00:01:27,610 --> 00:01:30,649 Speaker 2: and the historical Jesus. He's going to help us make 26 00:01:30,709 --> 00:01:32,750 Speaker 2: sense of this. Rob, thanks for coming on. 27 00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. 28 00:01:35,260 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 2: You're the perfect person on so many levels to help 29 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 2: unpack this with me. And so let's just jump right in. 30 00:01:42,380 --> 00:01:45,170 Speaker 2: What are the golden plates and why are they so 31 00:01:45,270 --> 00:01:48,050 Speaker 2: important for LDS origins? 32 00:01:49,350 --> 00:01:55,370 Speaker 1: The gold plates are that Joseph Smith claimed to have 33 00:01:55,510 --> 00:02:03,010 Speaker 1: first seen in 1823 and taken temporary custody of in 34 00:02:03,010 --> 00:02:08,380 Speaker 1: 1827 and translated, his expression was, by the gift and 35 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: power of God into English, mainly in 1829, after which 36 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:20,430 Speaker 1: the plates were taken away into custody by the angel 37 00:02:20,490 --> 00:02:23,090 Speaker 1: who had shown Joseph the plates in the first place. 38 00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:28,820 Speaker 1: So the plates are no longer accessible or available for 39 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: inspection or viewing. You can't go to a museum. You 40 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: can't see them in Temple Square. You can see a 41 00:02:36,620 --> 00:02:39,859 Speaker 1: model of them, but you can't see the actual plates. 42 00:02:40,300 --> 00:02:44,540 Speaker 1: Nobody knows where they are. Presumably they're either buried somewhere again, 43 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:49,609 Speaker 1: which is one view Mormons have predicted, or they are 44 00:02:49,750 --> 00:02:55,050 Speaker 1: in heaven, but they're not available. However, and this is 45 00:02:55,110 --> 00:02:57,470 Speaker 1: the interesting part that I know we're going to plan 46 00:02:57,490 --> 00:03:03,330 Speaker 1: to discuss here, prior to the plates being permanently whisked 47 00:03:03,389 --> 00:03:09,460 Speaker 1: away wherever they went, Joseph allegedly showed them to 11 48 00:03:09,460 --> 00:03:14,660 Speaker 1: of his family and friends, and they gave testimony that 49 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,030 Speaker 1: they had seen the plates and And those testimonies are 50 00:03:18,090 --> 00:03:21,250 Speaker 1: written up in a couple of documents that are in 51 00:03:21,570 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: most editions of the Book of Mormon, right up at 52 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: the front, near the front, to attest to the validity 53 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: of the Book of Mormon. Now, this is extremely important 54 00:03:32,020 --> 00:03:39,580 Speaker 1: because the plates ground the whole LDS story in something physical, 55 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:45,500 Speaker 1: in something tangible, in something that is allegedly an ancient record. 56 00:03:46,230 --> 00:03:50,730 Speaker 1: that Joseph translated by a supernatural gift into what is 57 00:03:50,790 --> 00:03:53,570 Speaker 1: called the Book of Mormon, and that that is the 58 00:03:53,630 --> 00:03:57,430 Speaker 1: foundation of the LDS Church. Just a few weeks after 59 00:03:57,490 --> 00:04:00,780 Speaker 1: he published the Book of Mormon in 1830, he founded 60 00:04:01,460 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: what later became known as the Church of Jesus Christ 61 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:10,220 Speaker 1: of Latter-day Saints. It is regarded as the foundational text 62 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,730 Speaker 1: of the LDS religion. Now, of course, that is alongside 63 00:04:15,790 --> 00:04:21,830 Speaker 1: the Bible and other modern scriptures. However, distinctive to the 64 00:04:21,990 --> 00:04:28,860 Speaker 1: LDS movement, distinctive to Mormonism, broadly speaking, is this thing 65 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:34,540 Speaker 1: called the Book of Mormon, and its authenticity is dependent 66 00:04:34,700 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: on the authenticity of the gold plates that Joseph Smith 67 00:04:38,339 --> 00:04:41,970 Speaker 1: said he had and that he said he translated. That's 68 00:04:42,029 --> 00:04:46,529 Speaker 1: why it's important. If those gold plates are were not real, 69 00:04:46,650 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: or if they weren't what he claimed to be, those 70 00:04:48,940 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: are two possibilities, then Mormonism as such falls. It can't 71 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: be true. The LDS religion is based on a falsehood. 72 00:05:02,140 --> 00:05:06,150 Speaker 1: If the gold plates didn't exist, or if Joseph had 73 00:05:06,230 --> 00:05:09,650 Speaker 1: plates but they didn't contain the Book of Mormon, then 74 00:05:09,710 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: Mormonism is not true. So it's Make or break with 75 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:19,089 Speaker 1: this issue. It's a deal breaker if you don't believe 76 00:05:19,190 --> 00:05:21,690 Speaker 1: in the authenticity of the gold plates. 77 00:05:22,310 --> 00:05:25,450 Speaker 2: Now, there might be some other ways we could test Mormonism, 78 00:05:25,529 --> 00:05:29,909 Speaker 2: for example, like the Book of Abraham or the origins of, say, 79 00:05:30,550 --> 00:05:33,220 Speaker 2: the Lamanites and the Nephites and the historical records. So 80 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 2: there's other ways we could lean into this. But the 81 00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:39,780 Speaker 2: primary test often when you speak to somebody who's LDS 82 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: is read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. 83 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,540 Speaker 2: And it claims to be a historical record. Hence, it 84 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:49,940 Speaker 2: starts with witnesses. So it's not meant to be taken 85 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,210 Speaker 2: as a fictional account. It's meant to be taken as 86 00:05:53,290 --> 00:05:57,609 Speaker 2: a historical account. And so given that's right at the beginning, 87 00:05:58,250 --> 00:06:01,529 Speaker 2: so much is at stake for the story contained therein, 88 00:06:01,990 --> 00:06:05,890 Speaker 2: Joseph Smith as a prophet and the Latter-day Saint church today. 89 00:06:06,250 --> 00:06:07,850 Speaker 2: Agree with that? Anything you would add to that? 90 00:06:08,910 --> 00:06:12,460 Speaker 1: You're making a crucial point, which is that– Book of 91 00:06:12,500 --> 00:06:17,500 Speaker 1: Mormon is, in a very practical sense, the gateway into 92 00:06:17,540 --> 00:06:22,370 Speaker 1: the LDS religion. It is the focal point of the 93 00:06:22,790 --> 00:06:28,770 Speaker 1: missionary's message to prospective converts. They want them to read 94 00:06:28,810 --> 00:06:31,380 Speaker 1: the Book of Mormon, pray to know if it's the 95 00:06:31,390 --> 00:06:36,500 Speaker 1: Word of God, and to receive an experiential confirmation of 96 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,500 Speaker 1: that in some fashion. And they're coached to have that happen. 97 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:46,140 Speaker 1: They're encouraged to seek that. And so people, most of 98 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,900 Speaker 1: the people doing that, most people who are reading the 99 00:06:48,940 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: Book of Mormon and praying to know if it's from 100 00:06:52,020 --> 00:06:55,190 Speaker 1: God or not, already have some kind, at least some 101 00:06:55,230 --> 00:06:57,570 Speaker 1: kind of nominal Christian faith. They have some kind of 102 00:06:57,610 --> 00:07:01,950 Speaker 1: Christian background. They say they believe in Jesus. They may 103 00:07:01,990 --> 00:07:04,930 Speaker 1: not know what they believe about him, or they may 104 00:07:04,970 --> 00:07:11,260 Speaker 1: not be firmly educated in their but they profess to 105 00:07:11,300 --> 00:07:15,460 Speaker 1: be Christians. And so the Book of Mormon is presented 106 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:17,870 Speaker 1: to them as, hey, if you read this and you 107 00:07:17,930 --> 00:07:21,710 Speaker 1: see God is behind it, then you'll know that the 108 00:07:21,810 --> 00:07:24,750 Speaker 1: LDS Church is the true church, and Joseph Smith is 109 00:07:24,810 --> 00:07:27,310 Speaker 1: a prophet of God. So all of this depends on 110 00:07:28,150 --> 00:07:30,670 Speaker 1: the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. 111 00:07:31,330 --> 00:07:33,090 Speaker 2: Well said. Now, we're going to get into who these 112 00:07:33,130 --> 00:07:35,860 Speaker 2: witnesses are, what they claim to have seen, whether they're 113 00:07:35,900 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 2: reliable witnesses or not. But anything else about the plates? 114 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,460 Speaker 2: You said we can't assess them today. They're either buried, 115 00:07:44,700 --> 00:07:48,470 Speaker 2: taken to heaven is the story that's often told. But 116 00:07:48,610 --> 00:07:51,890 Speaker 2: anything about how Joseph Smith got the plates? Anything about 117 00:07:51,970 --> 00:07:55,270 Speaker 2: how he translated them that's kind of relevant for our 118 00:07:55,290 --> 00:07:56,570 Speaker 2: investigation at this point? 119 00:07:58,150 --> 00:08:02,180 Speaker 1: Well, there are a lot of things that could be 120 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:06,310 Speaker 1: said about this. And I'm smiling– not because I want 121 00:08:06,350 --> 00:08:11,290 Speaker 1: to make fun of it, but because it's a really 122 00:08:11,410 --> 00:08:16,350 Speaker 1: incredible story. And I'll just give you the bare bones. 123 00:08:16,410 --> 00:08:19,170 Speaker 1: I've already mentioned a little bit of this already. Joseph 124 00:08:19,230 --> 00:08:23,350 Speaker 1: Smith says that he first saw the gold plates in 1823. 125 00:08:23,350 --> 00:08:27,180 Speaker 1: He says that he was led to the spot where 126 00:08:27,210 --> 00:08:30,580 Speaker 1: the plates were buried inside a box along with some 127 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,990 Speaker 1: other paraphernalia, most importantly gold. stones that he was told 128 00:08:36,050 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: would be used to translate them or read them. But 129 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,380 Speaker 1: he wasn't allowed to take them at that time. And 130 00:08:43,780 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: he had to come back once a year, every year. 131 00:08:47,420 --> 00:08:53,150 Speaker 1: And it was on the... It was on or around 132 00:08:53,210 --> 00:08:58,090 Speaker 1: September 21st, 22nd, something like the autumnal... What's it called? 133 00:08:58,110 --> 00:09:02,980 Speaker 1: The equinox, you know? And so he would... He would 134 00:09:03,020 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: come up back on this very special day on the calendar, 135 00:09:05,860 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: and he would be shown the plates again and be told, 136 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: you can't have them right now. You can't take them now. 137 00:09:13,940 --> 00:09:17,540 Speaker 1: There was always some instruction that he failed to follow 138 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,470 Speaker 1: or some concern that was raised about him taking them. 139 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:27,089 Speaker 1: And then finally, in 1827, he was allowed to take 140 00:09:27,150 --> 00:09:31,700 Speaker 1: custody of the plates again. He took them home without 141 00:09:31,780 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: showing them to his wife, who was with him at 142 00:09:33,870 --> 00:09:37,910 Speaker 1: the time, waiting in the wagon. She couldn't see them. 143 00:09:39,309 --> 00:09:42,230 Speaker 1: He took them home. He wouldn't show them to anybody. 144 00:09:45,290 --> 00:09:48,490 Speaker 1: He had a farmer friend of his named Martin Harris 145 00:09:48,750 --> 00:09:54,270 Speaker 1: agree to take dictation of his translation of the plates. 146 00:09:54,330 --> 00:09:56,589 Speaker 1: And I'm skipping parts of the story because it's just 147 00:09:56,630 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: too long. And Martin Harris, was not allowed to see 148 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:07,940 Speaker 1: the plates while he was taking dictation. There was something 149 00:10:07,980 --> 00:10:12,300 Speaker 1: set up between him and Joseph for at least part 150 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:17,020 Speaker 1: of that time. And other times later on when he 151 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: or somebody else was doing the dictation, the scribal work, 152 00:10:22,220 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: they couldn't see the plates. Joseph wasn't even looking at 153 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: the plates most of the time. He was dictating with 154 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,900 Speaker 1: his face buried in his hat, with a stone inside 155 00:10:33,940 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: the hat that was later called a seer stone, but 156 00:10:38,740 --> 00:10:41,059 Speaker 1: in pop culture at the time it was called a 157 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,589 Speaker 1: peep stone or some kind of, basically it was a 158 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:48,130 Speaker 1: magic rock you used to find buried treasure. And Joseph 159 00:10:48,190 --> 00:10:51,620 Speaker 1: had been doing that. He'd been using a stone in 160 00:10:51,650 --> 00:10:54,900 Speaker 1: his hat to look for buried treasure for over five 161 00:10:54,940 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: years before any of this got started, about six years. 162 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: And he was doing the same thing. I almost said 163 00:11:02,340 --> 00:11:04,500 Speaker 1: the same trick, but I don't want to be too 164 00:11:04,540 --> 00:11:07,910 Speaker 1: prejudicial here. But it was definitely just a trick when 165 00:11:07,950 --> 00:11:11,449 Speaker 1: he was looking for buried treasure. I think I can 166 00:11:11,490 --> 00:11:14,569 Speaker 1: say that without fear of contradiction. After all, he did 167 00:11:14,590 --> 00:11:18,530 Speaker 1: it for several years and never found a thing. unless 168 00:11:18,790 --> 00:11:23,010 Speaker 1: you count the gold plates. But he didn't supposedly find 169 00:11:23,050 --> 00:11:26,060 Speaker 1: them using the seer stone or the stone in the hat. 170 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,220 Speaker 1: So then Joseph dictates the Book of Mormon. Again, no 171 00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: one sees the plates throughout the entire period that he's translating. 172 00:11:35,460 --> 00:11:39,060 Speaker 1: They may see them covered up on a table, but 173 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:45,100 Speaker 1: they don't actually see the plates. And how Joseph was 174 00:11:45,179 --> 00:11:48,630 Speaker 1: dictating the Book of Mormon is with his face buried 175 00:11:48,670 --> 00:11:52,510 Speaker 1: in his hat remains a bit of a mystery, I 176 00:11:52,530 --> 00:11:55,250 Speaker 1: guess we could call it a puzzle. On the one hand, 177 00:11:55,429 --> 00:11:59,510 Speaker 1: it's pretty impressive. He dictated 500 pages of text, and 178 00:12:01,130 --> 00:12:04,330 Speaker 1: most of it in two or three months' time. There's 179 00:12:04,370 --> 00:12:08,330 Speaker 1: some wiggle room for the exact chronology there, but he 180 00:12:08,370 --> 00:12:11,630 Speaker 1: dictated a lot of content in a very short period 181 00:12:11,650 --> 00:12:14,390 Speaker 1: of time. There's a lot of things we could talk 182 00:12:14,429 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: about with that that it kind of explain at least 183 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,370 Speaker 1: that in some fashion, but still pretty impressive. On the 184 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:25,410 Speaker 1: other hand, he's not using the plates. He's not looking 185 00:12:25,470 --> 00:12:29,390 Speaker 1: at the plates. He's not reading the plates. And there's 186 00:12:29,970 --> 00:12:34,829 Speaker 1: this common mythology in Mormonism of Joseph Smith with what 187 00:12:34,890 --> 00:12:39,510 Speaker 1: look like spectacles, big spectacles on his face with the 188 00:12:39,570 --> 00:12:43,150 Speaker 1: stones set in wire rims so that he can use 189 00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:47,230 Speaker 1: them as eyeglasses to read And he's looking at the 190 00:12:47,290 --> 00:12:51,510 Speaker 1: plates and he's got his finger running along the hieroglyphs 191 00:12:51,550 --> 00:12:55,620 Speaker 1: or whatever. That never happened. He didn't use the plates. 192 00:12:57,220 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: To be honest, he didn't need the plates. Okay, so 193 00:13:04,580 --> 00:13:08,910 Speaker 1: Joseph later on dictated all kinds of revelations without using 194 00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:17,209 Speaker 1: physical documents, without even using the rock later on. So 195 00:13:19,330 --> 00:13:22,150 Speaker 1: all kinds of questions come up at this point. And 196 00:13:22,270 --> 00:13:26,429 Speaker 1: I'm just introducing that as background to, you've got this 197 00:13:26,830 --> 00:13:29,250 Speaker 1: thing going on with Joseph and the stone and the 198 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: hat and the plates that nobody's allowed to look at 199 00:13:32,260 --> 00:13:37,620 Speaker 1: or touch. His wife says she picked them up or 200 00:13:37,660 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: lifted them up to sort of dust under them a 201 00:13:41,380 --> 00:13:46,150 Speaker 1: couple of times, but she wasn't allowed to look at them. Joseph, 202 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: hid the plates when he wasn't dictating the Book of 203 00:13:49,980 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: Mormon with them sitting on the table. He hid them 204 00:13:51,980 --> 00:13:53,939 Speaker 1: in a barrel of beans, or he hid them in 205 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,260 Speaker 1: a shed, or he hid them various places. Supposedly, people 206 00:13:58,300 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: were trying to steal the plates because they were reportedly 207 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: made of gold, so they'd be worth something. And he 208 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: had to go to all these extremes to hide the 209 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,820 Speaker 1: plates so that nobody would get them, which raises interesting 210 00:14:13,860 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: questions later about the fact that the witnesses to the 211 00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: Book of Mormon had to have a prearranged meeting to 212 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: be allowed to see the plates, and whether they were 213 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,780 Speaker 1: going to see them was always a little bit of 214 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: a question. So that's kind of the background. So he 215 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,330 Speaker 1: finishes dictating the Book of Mormon in June of 1829, 216 00:14:36,330 --> 00:14:42,090 Speaker 1: if I remember the exact month correctly, and he at 217 00:14:42,170 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: some point there allows these two groups of men, three 218 00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:51,980 Speaker 1: and eight, to see the plates, and then they're gone. 219 00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:57,660 Speaker 2: Really well described. I had not connected for some reason, 220 00:14:58,090 --> 00:15:00,870 Speaker 2: even though until I read the recent Joseph Smith biography 221 00:15:00,910 --> 00:15:04,030 Speaker 2: by John Turner, that he has the plates, but he's 222 00:15:04,090 --> 00:15:07,870 Speaker 2: not even technically translating them. They're present, but he's not 223 00:15:07,930 --> 00:15:10,690 Speaker 2: even using them, even though we're often told that's the narrative. 224 00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:13,620 Speaker 2: And then, of course, he got revelation later on. without 225 00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:17,330 Speaker 2: the plates. But with that said, the witnesses claim to 226 00:15:17,390 --> 00:15:21,350 Speaker 2: have seen or touched these plates. It's at the beginning 227 00:15:21,530 --> 00:15:24,070 Speaker 2: of the Book of Mormon. And time and time again 228 00:15:24,090 --> 00:15:27,930 Speaker 2: in conversation and online, I've had LDS friends I've talked to, 229 00:15:28,270 --> 00:15:32,940 Speaker 2: I've had atheists discount the resurrection appearances and say evangelicals 230 00:15:32,980 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 2: are inconsistent because we accept what's in the Bible, but 231 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,420 Speaker 2: not the Book of Mormon. So let's dive into that 232 00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: a little bit more closely. And maybe there's the three witnesses. 233 00:15:42,250 --> 00:15:45,450 Speaker 2: And there's the eight witnesses. So 11 in total. Let's 234 00:15:45,490 --> 00:15:48,910 Speaker 2: take them one by one with the three witnesses. So 235 00:15:48,930 --> 00:15:50,510 Speaker 2: who are they? Yeah, go ahead. 236 00:15:51,130 --> 00:15:53,190 Speaker 1: If I could just back up a little bit on this. 237 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,900 Speaker 1: The broader picture here is that, as you're mentioning here, 238 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: on the one hand, Mormons are arguing that Christians, primarily 239 00:16:07,260 --> 00:16:11,870 Speaker 1: evangelical Christians, that's what they're really targeting here. are being 240 00:16:11,930 --> 00:16:17,210 Speaker 1: inconsistent because they accept the testimonies of the Gospels and 241 00:16:17,250 --> 00:16:21,890 Speaker 1: of Paul that these various individuals saw Jesus alive after 242 00:16:21,930 --> 00:16:27,180 Speaker 1: his death. They had experiences in which they sincerely believed 243 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,100 Speaker 1: they had seen the risen Christ. But they don't accept, 244 00:16:31,140 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: the evangelicals and other Christians secondarily, don't accept Joseph Smith's 245 00:16:36,380 --> 00:16:39,730 Speaker 1: claim that he saw the risen Christ in what is 246 00:16:39,790 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: known as the first vision, or that the 11 witnesses 247 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,620 Speaker 1: saw the gold plates. Three of them also said they 248 00:16:46,660 --> 00:16:50,420 Speaker 1: saw an angel. And so the Mormons argue, this is 249 00:16:50,510 --> 00:16:53,070 Speaker 1: on the one hand, that all of this is just 250 00:16:53,410 --> 00:16:57,150 Speaker 1: gross inconsistency on the part of Christians who accept the 251 00:16:57,190 --> 00:17:03,330 Speaker 1: New Testament accounts of these supernatural visions and experiences, but 252 00:17:03,410 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: not that of Joseph Smith and his 11 comrades. On 253 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,850 Speaker 1: the other hand, skeptics are using the same argument in reverse, 254 00:17:13,950 --> 00:17:16,850 Speaker 1: whereas the Mormons are saying, if you accept Paul and 255 00:17:16,869 --> 00:17:19,129 Speaker 1: the other appearances in the New Testament, you ought to 256 00:17:19,170 --> 00:17:22,910 Speaker 1: be able to accept Joseph. The skeptics are saying, you 257 00:17:22,950 --> 00:17:26,090 Speaker 1: guys don't accept Joseph Smith, so you're being inconsistent by 258 00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:31,389 Speaker 1: accepting Paul and the other New Testament appearances. Now, it 259 00:17:31,450 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: was seeing that this argument was being used by skeptics 260 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,860 Speaker 1: in this way, as well as by Mormons, And by 261 00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:42,700 Speaker 1: the way, the Mormon use of this comparison goes back 262 00:17:42,740 --> 00:17:47,420 Speaker 1: to Joseph Smith himself. That motivated me to write a 263 00:17:47,460 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: book that came out in 2020 called Jesus' Resurrection and 264 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:57,930 Speaker 1: Joseph's Visions, examining the foundations of Christianity and Mormonism. What 265 00:17:57,970 --> 00:18:00,990 Speaker 1: I tried to argue in that book is that if 266 00:18:01,030 --> 00:18:04,690 Speaker 1: you approach these two sets of claims, the New Testament 267 00:18:04,750 --> 00:18:10,580 Speaker 1: claims and Joseph Smith's claims, You don't assume miracles can't happen. 268 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,340 Speaker 1: You also don't assume that any miracle claim is as 269 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,330 Speaker 1: good as any other. But you look at the evidence 270 00:18:16,420 --> 00:18:19,950 Speaker 1: for both sets of claims as a whole, as an aggregate, 271 00:18:20,590 --> 00:18:23,990 Speaker 1: and you try to be as fair-minded as you can 272 00:18:24,030 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: and apply the same standards and methods to both, not 273 00:18:29,130 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: special pleading for one and not for the other. If 274 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:40,060 Speaker 1: you do that, I argue that that the evidence for Jesus' 275 00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:44,260 Speaker 1: resurrection in the New Testament and his appearances, especially that 276 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,860 Speaker 1: to Paul, but others as well, is very, very good. 277 00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:52,130 Speaker 1: The evidence is excellent. And there's no really overriding big 278 00:18:52,230 --> 00:18:59,630 Speaker 1: problem with these accounts. There's minor apparent discrepancies, but there's 279 00:18:59,670 --> 00:19:02,169 Speaker 1: nothing that takes them out of the realm of history. 280 00:19:02,210 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: They're just miracles. If you think miracles can happen, then... 281 00:19:07,260 --> 00:19:10,700 Speaker 1: There's nothing really wrong with these stories. Whereas in the 282 00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:15,949 Speaker 1: case of Joseph Smith and his associates, we have serious 283 00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:20,910 Speaker 1: historical problems that don't have anything to do with me 284 00:19:21,130 --> 00:19:26,650 Speaker 1: assuming theologically that an angel wouldn't appear to Joseph Smith. 285 00:19:26,670 --> 00:19:32,340 Speaker 1: There's no theological question begging here. There's no dogmatic objections 286 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: at all. It's just looking at the matter historically. We 287 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:39,700 Speaker 1: have serious reasons to question the first vision in which 288 00:19:40,109 --> 00:19:44,630 Speaker 1: Joseph Smith said Christ appeared to him, and we have 289 00:19:44,990 --> 00:19:48,530 Speaker 1: serious reasons to question the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. 290 00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:52,930 Speaker 1: not just the testimonies of the witnesses, although we do 291 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,100 Speaker 1: have reasons to question their testimonies, but also the internal 292 00:19:57,180 --> 00:20:00,380 Speaker 1: evidence of the Book of Mormon is heavily stacked against 293 00:20:00,460 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: its authenticity. So I try to take all of the evidence. So, 294 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: for example, with Jesus' resurrection, I don't just appeal to 295 00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:11,449 Speaker 1: the witnesses. I also appeal to the historical fact of 296 00:20:11,530 --> 00:20:14,670 Speaker 1: the death of Jesus on the cross, which leaves a 297 00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:17,650 Speaker 1: gaping hole in history if they went from that to 298 00:20:17,670 --> 00:20:22,420 Speaker 1: a thriving movement of people believing Jesus was alive, and 299 00:20:22,460 --> 00:20:26,740 Speaker 1: the evidence for the empty tomb, which is the closest 300 00:20:26,780 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: thing to an artifactual something comparable to maybe the gold plates, 301 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,540 Speaker 1: unless you count the Shroud of Turin, which I don't 302 00:20:35,580 --> 00:20:39,770 Speaker 1: really get into that, but that's another interesting question. But 303 00:20:40,130 --> 00:20:43,380 Speaker 1: I try to look at all the evidence, the physical, historical, 304 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: objective evidence that isn't dependent on accepting miraculous claims, and 305 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,419 Speaker 1: then situate those testimonies in that context with what we 306 00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:56,490 Speaker 1: know about the people involved. I try to do the 307 00:20:56,550 --> 00:21:00,429 Speaker 1: same thing with the evidences pertaining to Joseph Smith, the 308 00:21:00,470 --> 00:21:03,189 Speaker 1: Book of Mormon, and the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. 309 00:21:03,770 --> 00:21:08,950 Speaker 1: And the bottom line in my view is, The evidence 310 00:21:09,170 --> 00:21:12,970 Speaker 1: isn't very good for the latter. In fact, there's strong 311 00:21:13,090 --> 00:21:17,790 Speaker 1: evidence against Joseph Smith's claims and the claims of the 312 00:21:17,830 --> 00:21:22,380 Speaker 1: witnesses to the Book of Mormon. And so it's not 313 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: that I have a bias against miracles or even that 314 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,020 Speaker 1: I have a bias against modern miracles. I have a 315 00:21:28,060 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: bias against poorly evidenced claims, whether they're miraculous or not. 316 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,150 Speaker 1: And these are very poorly evidenced. 317 00:21:36,170 --> 00:21:39,489 Speaker 2: Rob, that was beautifully stated. I'm glad you paused me 318 00:21:39,530 --> 00:21:41,889 Speaker 2: to clarify what's at stake. And that also explains why 319 00:21:41,930 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: I asked you to come onto the show because you've 320 00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:47,300 Speaker 2: done a lot of work in historical Jesus. You care 321 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: deeply about LDS people and the theology and the debates 322 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,100 Speaker 2: and invested yourself in this. So let's jump into the witnesses. 323 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,870 Speaker 2: And this is right at the beginning of the Book 324 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,310 Speaker 2: of Mormon. And in some ways, it's powerful to start 325 00:22:02,350 --> 00:22:05,010 Speaker 2: with somebody who's reading this thinking, wow, this isn't just 326 00:22:05,050 --> 00:22:07,899 Speaker 2: a fictional story. In some ways, it's like jumping into 327 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 2: the Gospel of Luke, where Luke is like, we have, 328 00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 2: you know, I've investigated this carefully. I've talked to witnesses. 329 00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: I've chronicled, so you know the certainty of it. For 330 00:22:16,540 --> 00:22:19,540 Speaker 2: the uneducated jumping into Luke, it feels very much the 331 00:22:19,580 --> 00:22:22,010 Speaker 2: same jumping into the Book of Mormon. But rather than 332 00:22:22,109 --> 00:22:25,770 Speaker 2: one person, you have 11. But the devil, so to speak, 333 00:22:25,869 --> 00:22:29,740 Speaker 2: is in the details. So there's 11 witnesses. Let's take 334 00:22:29,780 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: the three at first, if that's okay, and just who 335 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 2: are the three, what claim is made, and what do 336 00:22:35,660 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 2: you make of that claim? 337 00:22:37,869 --> 00:22:43,030 Speaker 1: All right. So the three witnesses are Martin Harris, who 338 00:22:43,090 --> 00:22:49,429 Speaker 1: was Joseph Smith's principal financial backer in the Book of 339 00:22:49,470 --> 00:22:55,370 Speaker 1: Mormon project. He was financing the writing of the translation, 340 00:22:55,470 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: and he even started doing some of the translation himself. 341 00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:00,940 Speaker 1: He got fired from that part of the job. But 342 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: that's a fun story as well. But he was the 343 00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:08,850 Speaker 1: first scribe and the primary financial backer of the Book 344 00:23:08,869 --> 00:23:12,250 Speaker 1: of Mormon. So he was heavily invested in the project 345 00:23:12,330 --> 00:23:16,950 Speaker 1: from the get-go. The second person I'll mention is Oliver Cowdery. 346 00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: Oliver Cowdery became the primary scribe for the Book of Mormon. 347 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:26,090 Speaker 1: He wrote most of the manuscript, the original manuscripts, of 348 00:23:26,150 --> 00:23:28,390 Speaker 1: the Book of Mormon, and then he made a duplicate 349 00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: copy of it in his own hand, also in 1829. 350 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: So he was very, very heavily involved in the project 351 00:23:37,740 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: before he allegedly saw the gold plates. Then the third 352 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:50,530 Speaker 1: person was David Whitmer. David and his family housed, hosted 353 00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:54,889 Speaker 1: Joseph and his wife for months while Joseph worked on 354 00:23:56,350 --> 00:23:58,830 Speaker 1: translating the gold plates into the Book of Mormon. So 355 00:23:58,890 --> 00:24:05,220 Speaker 1: they were very heavily involved in the project as well, 356 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,540 Speaker 1: very supportive of it, believed in it fervently prior to 357 00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:15,300 Speaker 1: seeing the gold plates. So those are our three witnesses. 358 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,899 Speaker 2: Okay, so let's talk about the why you don't believe 359 00:24:20,940 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 2: them and think their claims are credible and maybe what 360 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,060 Speaker 2: they really actually saw, because part of the debate is, 361 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,700 Speaker 2: was this just a spiritual scene or was it a 362 00:24:32,980 --> 00:24:37,150 Speaker 2: physical scene? And then we'll get to the 11. So 363 00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:38,890 Speaker 2: break those down for us, if you will. 364 00:24:41,070 --> 00:24:45,710 Speaker 1: Sure. Now I, I want to, I apologize if I keep, but, 365 00:24:46,810 --> 00:24:48,489 Speaker 1: taking the wheel here in a way i. 366 00:24:48,490 --> 00:24:50,870 Speaker 2: Shouldn't take take it away take us where we need 367 00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:51,290 Speaker 2: to go. 368 00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:53,889 Speaker 1: I want to make something clear here do it and 369 00:24:53,950 --> 00:24:57,250 Speaker 1: that is that if we just look at each individual 370 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,180 Speaker 1: and their testimony or their contribution to the testimony that 371 00:25:02,220 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: was written down that's in the front of the book 372 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: of mormon now uh you know you could have questions 373 00:25:08,580 --> 00:25:13,250 Speaker 1: but uh You know, there are reasons why Mormons feel 374 00:25:13,310 --> 00:25:16,209 Speaker 1: that they can believe these people, and the fact that 375 00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:19,629 Speaker 1: there's 11 of them seems to count for something. And 376 00:25:19,710 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: so it's the big picture about these 11 witnesses that 377 00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:28,260 Speaker 1: also disturbs me as on top of, or maybe even 378 00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:35,060 Speaker 1: more so than their individual stories. Now, with regards to 379 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:41,010 Speaker 1: the three witnesses, what happened was, As I mentioned, they 380 00:25:41,070 --> 00:25:44,449 Speaker 1: didn't get to see the gold plates at first. They 381 00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:47,870 Speaker 1: were not allowed to look at them, even though Joseph 382 00:25:47,910 --> 00:25:51,410 Speaker 1: had them for various parts of a period of over 383 00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:58,540 Speaker 1: two years, or about two years. And they desperately wanted 384 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,420 Speaker 1: to see them. And at some point, Joseph delivered a 385 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:09,219 Speaker 1: revelation that God was going to allow Martin Harris and 386 00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:12,209 Speaker 1: and a couple of others to see the plates. And 387 00:26:13,390 --> 00:26:16,430 Speaker 1: that was eventually written into the Book of Mormon itself. 388 00:26:16,490 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: There's a prophecy attributed to an ancient prophet, an Israelite 389 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: prophet in the Book of Mormon narrative, predicting that the 390 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: person to whom these plates would be entrusted would be 391 00:26:31,140 --> 00:26:35,690 Speaker 1: allowed to show them to three witnesses. And of course, 392 00:26:37,380 --> 00:26:41,460 Speaker 1: From an outsider's perspective, this is simply something Joseph introduced 393 00:26:41,580 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 1: into the Book of Mormon narrative as a prophecy to 394 00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: tell his supporters, yeah, you're going to be able to 395 00:26:48,820 --> 00:26:53,479 Speaker 1: see these. From a Mormon perspective, it's, you know, 2,500 396 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: years ago, God revealed this to the Israelite prophet living 397 00:26:59,820 --> 00:27:05,420 Speaker 1: in the Americas. So that's the two very radically different perspectives, right, 398 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: on this passage. And this is going to come up 399 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: hundreds of times if you're reading the Mormon scriptures. So anyway, 400 00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:17,830 Speaker 1: Joseph told these three guys that we've mentioned that they 401 00:27:17,869 --> 00:27:20,890 Speaker 1: were going to be those three witnesses. Now, later on, 402 00:27:23,070 --> 00:27:26,830 Speaker 1: Joseph introduced the idea that there was going to be 403 00:27:26,850 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: a possibility that other people besides the three were going 404 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: to be allowed to be the witnesses. Mm-hmm. among the witnesses. 405 00:27:34,550 --> 00:27:36,409 Speaker 1: At first, it was just three. It was going to 406 00:27:36,450 --> 00:27:39,350 Speaker 1: be limited to three, and then it was expanded to 407 00:27:40,570 --> 00:27:43,990 Speaker 1: possibly others that the Lord might so choose, you know, 408 00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:49,449 Speaker 1: that kind of open-ended, you know, escape valve, actually, escape clause. 409 00:27:50,210 --> 00:27:54,810 Speaker 1: So the three witnesses were taken into a secluded part 410 00:27:54,850 --> 00:28:00,510 Speaker 1: of the woods outside one of the Whitmer's homes, and allegedly, 411 00:28:02,140 --> 00:28:10,710 Speaker 1: A brilliant light came over them, bathed the area. This 412 00:28:11,570 --> 00:28:14,550 Speaker 1: is one of the weirdest parts of the whole story. 413 00:28:15,490 --> 00:28:18,570 Speaker 1: Only after Martin Harris said, you know what, I think 414 00:28:18,609 --> 00:28:20,889 Speaker 1: I'm holding up the show here. Because they were praying 415 00:28:20,970 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: earnestly for this vision to come upon them. And nothing 416 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,940 Speaker 1: was happening. And Martin said, I think I'm the problem here. 417 00:28:27,980 --> 00:28:31,670 Speaker 1: So he separated himself and went off somewhere. away from 418 00:28:31,750 --> 00:28:36,030 Speaker 1: the others so that they could continue praying and seeking 419 00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:41,850 Speaker 1: the vision without any spiritual obstruction on his part. Everyone 420 00:28:41,870 --> 00:28:45,090 Speaker 1: seems to agree this happened in some fashion. So then 421 00:28:46,110 --> 00:28:49,510 Speaker 1: the other two witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, were 422 00:28:49,550 --> 00:28:53,190 Speaker 1: with Joseph Smith, and they reported this bright light coming 423 00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:56,500 Speaker 1: over them and seeing an angel and the angel holding 424 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,370 Speaker 1: the gold plates. and turning some of the pages so 425 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:06,230 Speaker 1: they could see that there were metal pages. And also 426 00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:08,270 Speaker 1: on a table out there in the woods, I don't 427 00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:10,950 Speaker 1: know who put the table there. I've never seen any 428 00:29:11,010 --> 00:29:14,170 Speaker 1: comment about where the table came from. But on a table, 429 00:29:14,230 --> 00:29:19,270 Speaker 1: there was not only the gold plates, but there were 430 00:29:19,350 --> 00:29:25,630 Speaker 1: other paraphernalia. The interpreters or Urim and Thummim, sometimes they 431 00:29:25,670 --> 00:29:30,070 Speaker 1: got calls later on. The stones that were supposedly set 432 00:29:30,130 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: in wire rims to be used as spectacles, those were 433 00:29:33,660 --> 00:29:38,950 Speaker 1: on the table. And the sword of Laban mentioned in 434 00:29:38,990 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: the Book of Mormon is this very extravagant-looking, apparently, weapon 435 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,500 Speaker 1: that the hero of the first part of the Book 436 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,830 Speaker 1: of Mormon, Nephi, takes off the dead man, Laban. That 437 00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:56,810 Speaker 1: was on the table, and there were other things on 438 00:29:56,830 --> 00:30:02,830 Speaker 1: the table. And so they saw the angel... and they 439 00:30:03,210 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: heard the voice of God, maybe, not just the angel, 440 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: but also a voice of God, supposedly. Some of them 441 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,580 Speaker 1: at least said that was the case, telling them that 442 00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:17,340 Speaker 1: this was true, that it was the word of God, 443 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,210 Speaker 1: and it was translated correctly, and all that. And so 444 00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:27,050 Speaker 1: later on, Joseph got together with Martin Harris, and they 445 00:30:27,390 --> 00:30:31,490 Speaker 1: prayed separately, just the two of them, And Martin Harris 446 00:30:31,550 --> 00:30:36,250 Speaker 1: reported that he had an experience that he understood to 447 00:30:36,310 --> 00:30:41,370 Speaker 1: be a vision or revelation of the Book of Mormon 448 00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:49,740 Speaker 1: plates that satisfied him. Now, a problem, not the only problem, 449 00:30:50,020 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: a problem with this story, other than it just being 450 00:30:53,780 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: weird in certain ways that I don't know that has 451 00:30:56,540 --> 00:31:04,530 Speaker 1: any good theological explanation, is that both Harris and Whitmer 452 00:31:04,650 --> 00:31:09,270 Speaker 1: later on made statements indicating that the experience was less than, 453 00:31:09,890 --> 00:31:16,050 Speaker 1: shall we say, physical, that it was a spiritual experience 454 00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:22,660 Speaker 1: or a vision. And the, the angel, according to David Whitmer, 455 00:31:22,820 --> 00:31:27,350 Speaker 1: and I just found this statement more puzzling than anything. I, 456 00:31:28,030 --> 00:31:29,930 Speaker 1: I don't even know what I'd want to make very 457 00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:32,250 Speaker 1: much out of it, but look, this is what he said. 458 00:31:32,290 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: He said that the angel didn't, he was asked to 459 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,740 Speaker 1: describe the angel. He said, well, I can't really describe 460 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,340 Speaker 1: him because he didn't really look like anything. And, you know, 461 00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:45,350 Speaker 1: he was, it's kind of nothing from your point of view. And, 462 00:31:45,570 --> 00:31:48,250 Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of hard to, he basically didn't 463 00:31:48,290 --> 00:31:52,500 Speaker 1: have an answer, uh, as to what the angel looked like. And, um, 464 00:31:54,290 --> 00:31:57,370 Speaker 1: They didn't touch the plates. This is the general consensus 465 00:31:57,490 --> 00:32:00,910 Speaker 1: of the import of the testimony that's in the Book 466 00:32:00,950 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: of Mormon and of their later interviews, that they didn't 467 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,100 Speaker 1: get to touch the leaves of the Book of Mormon 468 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:17,550 Speaker 1: gold plates at all. So does one take this story seriously? Well, 469 00:32:18,230 --> 00:32:21,170 Speaker 1: you take it seriously in the sense that these guys 470 00:32:21,490 --> 00:32:27,230 Speaker 1: definitely claimed this happened. But what happened? And are we 471 00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:31,670 Speaker 1: being given sort of the straight scoop here? Those are 472 00:32:31,730 --> 00:32:36,850 Speaker 1: legitimate questions. This is not an obviously credible miracle account 473 00:32:36,910 --> 00:32:39,930 Speaker 1: or visionary account. And there are a number of reasons 474 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: why we can get into maybe after we talk about 475 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,459 Speaker 1: the testimony of the eight witnesses. But the point is, 476 00:32:46,540 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: is that the story has some credibility issues, even on 477 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: the elements that I've described. Not because I don't believe 478 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,060 Speaker 1: in miracles or visions or modern occurrences, but because the 479 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,930 Speaker 1: story just doesn't seem to fit well either with biblical 480 00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:09,830 Speaker 1: accounts of miracles and visions or even to make much 481 00:33:09,870 --> 00:33:11,610 Speaker 1: sense on its own terms. 482 00:33:12,790 --> 00:33:14,550 Speaker 2: That's really helpful. We'll circle back to some of your 483 00:33:14,570 --> 00:33:18,430 Speaker 2: other concerns. On page 54 of History of the Church, 484 00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:22,210 Speaker 2: Smith wrote, not many days after the above commandment was given, 485 00:33:22,270 --> 00:33:25,710 Speaker 2: we four, which is Martin Harris, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, 486 00:33:25,790 --> 00:33:29,070 Speaker 2: the three you mentioned, and myself, Joseph Smith, agreed to 487 00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:33,970 Speaker 2: retire into the woods and try to obtain by fervent 488 00:33:34,130 --> 00:33:37,910 Speaker 2: and humble prayer the fulfillment of the promises given in 489 00:33:37,950 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 2: the above revelation that they should have a view of 490 00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 2: the plates. Now, I'll skip down. He says that we 491 00:33:44,340 --> 00:33:47,500 Speaker 2: did not At the first trial, whoever obtained an answer 492 00:33:47,540 --> 00:33:50,580 Speaker 2: on manifestation of divine favor in our behalf, began to 493 00:33:50,620 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 2: observe the same order of prayer, each calling on, praying 494 00:33:53,580 --> 00:33:58,010 Speaker 2: fervently to God in rotation, but with the same result 495 00:33:58,230 --> 00:34:01,590 Speaker 2: as before. And then they describe a light and kind 496 00:34:01,610 --> 00:34:04,570 Speaker 2: of a vision that they had. But in an article 497 00:34:04,650 --> 00:34:06,890 Speaker 2: on this, Bill McKeever, friend of both of ours, the 498 00:34:06,910 --> 00:34:09,129 Speaker 2: Mormon Research Ministry, he says, praying to see the golden 499 00:34:09,170 --> 00:34:11,989 Speaker 2: plates out in the woods seems rather odd. After all, 500 00:34:12,070 --> 00:34:15,450 Speaker 2: Smith had already commenced translating the plates in a second-story 501 00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:20,090 Speaker 2: bedroom in the Peter Whitmer cabin. Why not just allow 502 00:34:20,110 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 2: the three men to see the gold record at the location? 503 00:34:23,980 --> 00:34:26,380 Speaker 2: Why was prayer necessary to see the plates if they were, 504 00:34:26,420 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 2: in fact, tangible? Harris' behavior also seemed strange if the 505 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,280 Speaker 2: plates actually existed. How would his doubt be a detriment 506 00:34:34,340 --> 00:34:38,210 Speaker 2: to seeing a physical object? These are very fair questions 507 00:34:38,250 --> 00:34:40,430 Speaker 2: and we might circle back to this. But before we 508 00:34:40,469 --> 00:34:43,810 Speaker 2: go on to the eight, any other thoughts on that 509 00:34:43,870 --> 00:34:45,469 Speaker 2: or concerns you want to raise at this point? 510 00:34:46,330 --> 00:34:51,130 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to try to be scrupulously fair on 511 00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:56,850 Speaker 1: this issue because a Mormon could object that, well, you 512 00:34:56,890 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: had to have faith to see the angels. Maybe not 513 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: to see the plates, but the angel showed them the plates. 514 00:35:04,620 --> 00:35:06,950 Speaker 1: In order to be allowed to see the angel, you 515 00:35:06,989 --> 00:35:10,410 Speaker 1: had to have faith and you had to sort of 516 00:35:10,790 --> 00:35:18,710 Speaker 1: make yourself spiritually ready. That might be, and I don't 517 00:35:18,750 --> 00:35:22,050 Speaker 1: know how many Mormons would say that, but that might 518 00:35:22,090 --> 00:35:25,020 Speaker 1: be one way of trying to diffuse the issue, but 519 00:35:25,060 --> 00:35:31,460 Speaker 1: it doesn't work very well because nowhere in the No, 520 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,620 Speaker 1: I have to say there's one exception. Almost everywhere in 521 00:35:35,660 --> 00:35:38,930 Speaker 1: the Bible, when people see angels, they're totally unprepared for it. 522 00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:41,890 Speaker 1: They don't know that they're going to see an angel. 523 00:35:41,930 --> 00:35:44,290 Speaker 1: They're not looking to see an angel. In some cases, 524 00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:46,649 Speaker 1: they don't even realize it was an angel until it's over. 525 00:35:47,610 --> 00:35:50,670 Speaker 1: There's one exception to that, and that's the story in 526 00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:54,250 Speaker 1: the Old Testament historical books about there was an army 527 00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: of angels that was there to protect the Israelites from 528 00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:02,230 Speaker 1: a foreign enemy, and One guy couldn't see the angels 529 00:36:02,330 --> 00:36:05,169 Speaker 1: until the other one said, yeah, the Lord will show 530 00:36:05,210 --> 00:36:07,810 Speaker 1: you now. And boom, they saw all the angels. So 531 00:36:08,489 --> 00:36:11,969 Speaker 1: that's the only exception. But he didn't need to spiritually 532 00:36:12,010 --> 00:36:14,180 Speaker 1: prepare himself for it. He just needed to be told, 533 00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:15,859 Speaker 1: you know, this is going to be shown to you. 534 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,580 Speaker 1: So this idea that these three men had to spiritually 535 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: prepare themselves through fervent prayer and kind of work themselves 536 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,500 Speaker 1: into a spiritual state, really, in order to see the angels, 537 00:36:29,090 --> 00:36:32,270 Speaker 1: and the plates is very suspicious. It does look like, 538 00:36:32,330 --> 00:36:35,009 Speaker 1: in fact, that was the point. They had to work 539 00:36:35,070 --> 00:36:41,290 Speaker 1: themselves into a spiritual lather in order to have the experience. 540 00:36:42,190 --> 00:36:44,430 Speaker 1: That's what it looks like. And of course, yes, I'm 541 00:36:44,489 --> 00:36:47,709 Speaker 1: speaking about this from an outsider's perspective, but it makes 542 00:36:47,770 --> 00:36:51,830 Speaker 1: sense in a way that the claim that they really 543 00:36:51,890 --> 00:36:55,069 Speaker 1: did need to have this kind of faith and fervency 544 00:36:55,140 --> 00:36:59,450 Speaker 1: and prayer before they could see the plates, That theory 545 00:36:59,850 --> 00:37:02,370 Speaker 1: is not only scuttled for the reasons that you mentioned 546 00:37:02,430 --> 00:37:05,610 Speaker 1: from Bill McKeever saying, but also because, as Bill would agree, 547 00:37:05,630 --> 00:37:09,070 Speaker 1: the thing that happened a day or two later completely 548 00:37:09,110 --> 00:37:11,689 Speaker 1: disproves the whole thing. And that is that the eight 549 00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:13,989 Speaker 1: were allowed to see the plates and they didn't have 550 00:37:14,030 --> 00:37:17,170 Speaker 1: to prepare themselves in any way, shape or form. I 551 00:37:17,210 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: don't understand why it was necessary for the three, but 552 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,259 Speaker 1: not for the eight. 553 00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:25,939 Speaker 2: Now, that's a great question. Let's go to the eight. 554 00:37:26,020 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 2: But I would say in history of the church, Joseph 555 00:37:29,300 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 2: Smith wrote that they would try to obtain by firm 556 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: and humble prayer, referring to that they should have a 557 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,540 Speaker 2: view of the plates, not the angel. And if they're 558 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 2: physical and he's translating it, we don't need an angel 559 00:37:44,020 --> 00:37:48,390 Speaker 2: to deliver it. So it just adds layers in confusion. 560 00:37:48,410 --> 00:37:51,299 Speaker 2: But with that said, let's shift to the eight right 561 00:37:51,340 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 2: now and talk about who they are and what you 562 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:53,819 Speaker 2: make of that. 563 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,589 Speaker 1: Okay. So the eight witnesses, I'm going to rattle off 564 00:37:58,620 --> 00:38:03,630 Speaker 1: their names and just doing that will be informative. John Whitmer, 565 00:38:03,870 --> 00:38:09,810 Speaker 1: Jacob Whitmer, Hiram Page, Christian Whitmer, Peter Whitmer Jr., Joseph 566 00:38:09,850 --> 00:38:14,850 Speaker 1: Smith Sr., Hiram Smith, and Samuel H. Smith. Now, all 567 00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: of these eight witnesses are turned out to be members 568 00:38:20,180 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: of either the Whitmer clan or the Smith clan, because 569 00:38:23,980 --> 00:38:30,390 Speaker 1: Hiram Page was married to David Whitmer's sister, Catherine. And 570 00:38:30,650 --> 00:38:36,850 Speaker 1: so they were either Whitmers or they were Smiths. And 571 00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 1: several brothers of David Whitmer, Joseph Smith's father, Joseph Sr., 572 00:38:46,989 --> 00:38:50,410 Speaker 1: and two of his brothers, Hiram and Samuel. Those were 573 00:38:50,450 --> 00:38:55,070 Speaker 1: the eight witnesses. Now, I say that this is already 574 00:38:57,010 --> 00:38:58,969 Speaker 1: something that should be at least a bit of a 575 00:38:59,010 --> 00:39:08,569 Speaker 1: yellow alert, you know, because we talked about we were 576 00:39:08,590 --> 00:39:14,830 Speaker 1: going to compare this with the resurrection appearances. Jesus' resurrection 577 00:39:14,850 --> 00:39:18,940 Speaker 1: appearances were to men and women from at least a 578 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: dozen different families. Very likely a lot more families than that, 579 00:39:23,980 --> 00:39:27,509 Speaker 1: but at least a dozen different families. No more than 580 00:39:27,590 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 1: two or three from any single family. But Joseph's witnesses 581 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: to his gold plates are all except one taken from 582 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,830 Speaker 1: the Smith or Whitmer families, because Cowdery was a distant 583 00:39:43,930 --> 00:39:50,910 Speaker 1: cousin of his, and a So he was already kind 584 00:39:50,969 --> 00:39:54,430 Speaker 1: of ex officio part of both families in a way. 585 00:39:54,510 --> 00:39:58,149 Speaker 1: He was very close to both families, but technically not 586 00:39:58,190 --> 00:40:05,900 Speaker 1: a close relative until he married Elizabeth Whitmer. And Martin Harris, 587 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: the only outlier here for sure, he was never part 588 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: of either family. But all the others are Smiths and Whitmers. 589 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:20,140 Speaker 1: This led Mark Twain to caustically remark in his book, 590 00:40:20,260 --> 00:40:23,500 Speaker 1: Roughing It, I could not have been more satisfied if 591 00:40:23,580 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: the whole Whitmer family had testified. 592 00:40:27,620 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 2: I didn't know he had said that. That's interesting. 593 00:40:32,780 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: Okay. 594 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 2: Keep going. 595 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,780 Speaker 1: Now, please understand, there's nothing wrong with a family member 596 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:43,050 Speaker 1: being involved. The problem here is that we have virtually 597 00:40:43,310 --> 00:40:48,569 Speaker 1: all of the witnesses mustered to provide testimony to the 598 00:40:48,610 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: gold plates. being members of these two families, and all 599 00:40:53,800 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: 11 of them already heavily invested financially, logistically, emotionally, or 600 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,660 Speaker 1: more than one of those ways, in the success of 601 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: the Book of Mormon project. They were backing it financially. 602 00:41:09,390 --> 00:41:13,870 Speaker 1: They were hosting Joseph in their home. They were part 603 00:41:13,890 --> 00:41:18,110 Speaker 1: of his family. So they were all heavily invested in it. 604 00:41:18,969 --> 00:41:24,740 Speaker 1: And Joseph's selection of these 11 men from these almost 605 00:41:24,820 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: all from the two families and all of the eight 606 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:34,720 Speaker 1: from the Whitmers and Smith families raises some serious questions 607 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:40,990 Speaker 1: about the credibility of their cumulative testimony. Because we're really 608 00:41:41,050 --> 00:41:47,569 Speaker 1: just having two small family groupings that are heavily involved. 609 00:41:48,140 --> 00:41:52,980 Speaker 1: involved in this project. And they didn't have to be 610 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:57,069 Speaker 1: convinced to be witnesses. They all wanted to be. They 611 00:41:57,110 --> 00:42:00,950 Speaker 1: were already part of the project, and they wanted the 612 00:42:01,030 --> 00:42:05,290 Speaker 1: honor of being counted as among the witnesses to the 613 00:42:05,310 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 1: gold plates. And that at least raises some legitimate questions 614 00:42:13,380 --> 00:42:20,390 Speaker 1: or doubts about the value of their testimony cumulatively and 615 00:42:20,430 --> 00:42:21,509 Speaker 1: not just individually. 616 00:42:21,530 --> 00:42:24,859 Speaker 2: Okay, so you mentioned that you had some concerns about 617 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 2: the 11 when they're kind of taken as a whole 618 00:42:27,340 --> 00:42:30,860 Speaker 2: that we would circle back to after we looked at 619 00:42:31,010 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 2: the 8th. So for me, a couple things that jump 620 00:42:34,780 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 2: out were there is an expectation built in to see 621 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:45,020 Speaker 2: the plates. There's a social expectation. There's already a belief 622 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 2: that the plates exist and were translated. They had been 623 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,420 Speaker 2: told about the story. This is very different than the 624 00:42:51,460 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 2: appearances of Jesus. where Jesus predicted Mark 8, 9, and 10, 625 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 2: John 2, John 10, that he would die and he 626 00:42:59,260 --> 00:43:02,490 Speaker 2: would resurrect, but they don't expect it. They don't understand it. 627 00:43:02,980 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 2: They're caught off guard and still don't believe when they 628 00:43:07,500 --> 00:43:11,260 Speaker 2: hear it and they see it. So one significant difference 629 00:43:11,300 --> 00:43:16,420 Speaker 2: here is just expectation and surprise between the two that 630 00:43:16,460 --> 00:43:19,490 Speaker 2: I think is significant. Now, any comments on that and 631 00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:21,910 Speaker 2: then any other concerns as a whole you want to 632 00:43:21,950 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 2: bring in? 633 00:43:23,590 --> 00:43:27,410 Speaker 1: Well, you're making an extremely important point. There's a lot 634 00:43:27,469 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 1: of subsidiary elements to the stories that I think would 635 00:43:33,660 --> 00:43:40,890 Speaker 1: really strengthen the point that you're making. The apostles had 636 00:43:40,989 --> 00:43:44,390 Speaker 1: lost faith in Jesus after his crucifixion. 637 00:43:46,030 --> 00:43:46,410 Speaker 2: Why? 638 00:43:46,969 --> 00:43:55,930 Speaker 1: Because crucifixion wasn't just dying. was dying an ignominious, hideous, horrific, ugly, 639 00:43:56,820 --> 00:44:01,500 Speaker 1: shameful death. It was designed to do that, by the way, 640 00:44:01,940 --> 00:44:09,089 Speaker 1: to be all that. The Romans relished humiliating men and 641 00:44:09,410 --> 00:44:14,669 Speaker 1: their families and compatriots in the culture by doing this. 642 00:44:15,810 --> 00:44:19,819 Speaker 1: And so The fact that Jesus had been killed by 643 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: the Romans in this horrific fashion was proof positive to 644 00:44:26,620 --> 00:44:31,299 Speaker 1: everyone that he couldn't have been the Messiah. After all, 645 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,660 Speaker 1: the traditional conventional view in popular Judaism at the time 646 00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:38,259 Speaker 1: was that the Messiah was going to be a latter-day 647 00:44:38,340 --> 00:44:43,180 Speaker 1: David or Joshua, and he was going to destroy the 648 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,220 Speaker 1: Romans and and set up the kingdom of God with 649 00:44:46,260 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 1: Jerusalem as the capital city over the whole world. That 650 00:44:50,580 --> 00:44:55,219 Speaker 1: was the hope. And instead of crushing the Romans, the 651 00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: Romans crushed him. They crushed Jesus. And so in doing that, 652 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 1: they crushed the hopes and beliefs of the disciples as well. 653 00:45:05,219 --> 00:45:08,580 Speaker 1: They had no reason to think Jesus could be anything 654 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: significant other than a wonderful rabbi who ended up getting 655 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,020 Speaker 1: caught in the cogs of the wheel of the Roman Empire. 656 00:45:18,540 --> 00:45:22,970 Speaker 1: But he certainly was not the Messiah. He certainly was 657 00:45:23,050 --> 00:45:27,950 Speaker 1: not any kind of cosmic redeemer type figure. They didn't 658 00:45:27,989 --> 00:45:31,830 Speaker 1: think of him that way once he'd been crucified. An 659 00:45:31,890 --> 00:45:36,589 Speaker 1: example of this where it becomes explicit is the two 660 00:45:36,630 --> 00:45:39,529 Speaker 1: disciples on the road to Emmaus talking to Jesus, not 661 00:45:39,570 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 1: knowing it's Jesus, are you the only person that hasn't 662 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: heard this story? And they're telling him what happened. And 663 00:45:47,620 --> 00:45:50,680 Speaker 1: by the way, they didn't recognize Jesus because the text 664 00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:53,990 Speaker 1: says their eyes were kept from recognizing him. In other words, 665 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,450 Speaker 1: that's a divine passive. It's a way of saying God 666 00:45:56,830 --> 00:46:00,030 Speaker 1: prevented them from knowing it was Jesus. It was Jesus. 667 00:46:00,070 --> 00:46:02,710 Speaker 1: It probably looked like Jesus, but they just couldn't tell. 668 00:46:03,530 --> 00:46:09,210 Speaker 1: So the two guys say to Jesus, we had hoped, 669 00:46:10,210 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: past tense, we had hoped that he was the one 670 00:46:14,300 --> 00:46:18,830 Speaker 1: who would redeem Israel. The past tense is very tragic. 671 00:46:20,070 --> 00:46:26,630 Speaker 1: There's pathos there. There's disillusionment and disappointment in those words. 672 00:46:27,390 --> 00:46:29,910 Speaker 1: This is why the two are on their way to Emmaus. 673 00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:32,860 Speaker 1: I don't think they had a big business deal going 674 00:46:32,890 --> 00:46:37,410 Speaker 1: down in Emmaus. They had heard that You know, Jesus 675 00:46:37,450 --> 00:46:40,089 Speaker 1: had just been crucified, and they'd heard that the tomb 676 00:46:40,110 --> 00:46:41,969 Speaker 1: was empty, and they were worried that they were going 677 00:46:41,989 --> 00:46:45,630 Speaker 1: to get blamed. That's probably what was going on. And 678 00:46:45,950 --> 00:46:49,560 Speaker 1: they decided to get out of Dodge. You know, they 679 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,020 Speaker 1: didn't want to be around for whatever happened next. So 680 00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:59,240 Speaker 1: here they are. They're running away from, really, from Jesus 681 00:46:59,300 --> 00:47:04,150 Speaker 1: without knowing it. And speaking a little bit metaphorically here, 682 00:47:04,210 --> 00:47:05,290 Speaker 1: Jesus runs after them. 683 00:47:05,650 --> 00:47:05,770 Speaker 2: Hmm. 684 00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:09,330 Speaker 1: By the way, forgive me for going off script here, 685 00:47:09,390 --> 00:47:14,170 Speaker 1: but just quickly, this is a death knell to the 686 00:47:14,310 --> 00:47:18,910 Speaker 1: Mormon interpretation of the passage, where later on the two disciples, 687 00:47:19,070 --> 00:47:21,250 Speaker 1: once their eyes are opened and they recognize that it 688 00:47:21,290 --> 00:47:24,549 Speaker 1: was Jesus, say, didn't our hearts burn within us as 689 00:47:24,590 --> 00:47:28,410 Speaker 1: he was opening the scriptures to us? And Mormons use 690 00:47:28,430 --> 00:47:32,109 Speaker 1: that as a template for, here's how you know that 691 00:47:32,180 --> 00:47:34,960 Speaker 1: Christianity is true. Here's how you know that Mormonism is true. 692 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:42,410 Speaker 1: If you have this deep burning feeling, this warm certainty, emotional, 693 00:47:42,660 --> 00:47:47,190 Speaker 1: spiritual feeling in your heart that it's true. But to 694 00:47:47,270 --> 00:47:49,790 Speaker 1: get that in Mormonism, you have to seek it, just 695 00:47:49,830 --> 00:47:54,310 Speaker 1: like the three witnesses had to seek the opportunity to 696 00:47:54,370 --> 00:47:58,030 Speaker 1: see the plates in fervent prayer, and it was questionable 697 00:47:58,070 --> 00:48:01,370 Speaker 1: whether they would be fervent enough. You have to seek 698 00:48:01,510 --> 00:48:04,610 Speaker 1: the experience of that burning in the bosom, as Mormons 699 00:48:04,670 --> 00:48:09,569 Speaker 1: call it. based on this verse in Luke chapter 24, 700 00:48:09,570 --> 00:48:11,469 Speaker 1: in order to get it. But the two disciples on 701 00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:14,270 Speaker 1: the road to Emmaus were not seeking Jesus. They were 702 00:48:14,290 --> 00:48:16,870 Speaker 1: not seeking a spiritual experience. They were trying to get 703 00:48:16,930 --> 00:48:21,100 Speaker 1: out of town before something bad happened to them. And 704 00:48:21,180 --> 00:48:24,020 Speaker 1: I just want to say to Latter-day Saints that are listening, 705 00:48:26,020 --> 00:48:32,950 Speaker 1: the way God reveals truth is not to bypass the historical, physical, scientific, 706 00:48:33,350 --> 00:48:37,860 Speaker 1: material evidences. but he reveals himself through those things. He 707 00:48:37,940 --> 00:48:41,140 Speaker 1: revealed himself with a mighty hand through the exodus and 708 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,580 Speaker 1: the conquest. He revealed himself through the miracles that Jesus 709 00:48:44,660 --> 00:48:48,200 Speaker 1: performed during his mortal lifetime and through his own resurrection 710 00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:52,110 Speaker 1: from the dead. God is in the business of showing 711 00:48:52,170 --> 00:48:55,430 Speaker 1: himself through these kinds of actions, and he provides a 712 00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:58,830 Speaker 1: trail of clues that are left behind for people that 713 00:48:58,890 --> 00:49:01,049 Speaker 1: want to know if these things really happened or not. 714 00:49:01,930 --> 00:49:04,009 Speaker 1: And that's how we know that these things are true, 715 00:49:04,070 --> 00:49:07,310 Speaker 1: not because We have a feeling in our hearts that 716 00:49:07,350 --> 00:49:09,420 Speaker 1: tells us this is the right church to join or 717 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 1: this is the right book to believe. I don't even 718 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,450 Speaker 1: do that with the Bible. I believe the Bible because 719 00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:19,450 Speaker 1: I have reasons to believe that it's true and because 720 00:49:19,510 --> 00:49:28,360 Speaker 1: it has proven itself to remain valuable, illuminating, enlightening, and 721 00:49:28,460 --> 00:49:32,340 Speaker 1: powerful in people's lives, even after we've forgotten half of 722 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,680 Speaker 1: what was going on in the cultures where they were written. 723 00:49:35,870 --> 00:49:38,630 Speaker 1: So there's a wealth of evidence in support of the Bible, 724 00:49:39,410 --> 00:49:43,509 Speaker 1: but When it comes to Mormonism, if you want to 725 00:49:43,570 --> 00:49:48,180 Speaker 1: believe it, you're constantly having to explain things away, like 726 00:49:48,219 --> 00:49:51,500 Speaker 1: the problems that we've already been talking about. And so 727 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,520 Speaker 1: these two disciples on the road to Emmaus are an 728 00:49:54,580 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 1: example of God intervening to provide evidence to people that 729 00:49:59,180 --> 00:50:06,500 Speaker 1: weren't looking for it. And in Mormonism, the 11 witnesses 730 00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:13,160 Speaker 1: were desperately seeking evidence to see the plates, to confirm 731 00:50:13,340 --> 00:50:16,890 Speaker 1: to their minds that they were supporting something that was true, 732 00:50:17,090 --> 00:50:18,910 Speaker 1: but also because it was going to be a great 733 00:50:18,969 --> 00:50:24,900 Speaker 1: honor to be witnesses to the gold plates. And in 734 00:50:24,940 --> 00:50:28,420 Speaker 1: the case of Jesus' resurrection, he's constantly appearing to people 735 00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,339 Speaker 1: out of the blue. They're not looking for him. They're 736 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:37,000 Speaker 1: not expecting him. Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene. She's confused, 737 00:50:37,060 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: and she's crying her eyes out, and she thinks he's 738 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,920 Speaker 1: the gardener. What did you do with this body? Jesus 739 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,160 Speaker 1: appears to the disciples in the upper room. They're startled, 740 00:50:48,219 --> 00:50:55,430 Speaker 1: and they think they're seeing a ghost. Paul is on 741 00:50:55,469 --> 00:50:59,310 Speaker 1: his way to persecute Christians, and Christ stops him on 742 00:50:59,350 --> 00:51:05,130 Speaker 1: the road and says, why are you persecuting me? These 743 00:51:05,410 --> 00:51:09,950 Speaker 1: are the New Testament models or examples that we have 744 00:51:10,210 --> 00:51:14,330 Speaker 1: of how people came to recognize that Jesus had risen 745 00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:17,520 Speaker 1: from the dead. The witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus 746 00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,380 Speaker 1: Christ were not people that sought to be those witnesses, 747 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:28,259 Speaker 1: but they were pressed into service by the unprepared, unannounced, 748 00:51:29,450 --> 00:51:33,170 Speaker 1: not prearranged appearance of Jesus to them. Whereas all of 749 00:51:33,250 --> 00:51:38,570 Speaker 1: the The experiences of the 11, whether it's two or three, 750 00:51:38,590 --> 00:51:42,210 Speaker 1: however you want to count those, they're all prearranged by 751 00:51:42,290 --> 00:51:44,550 Speaker 1: Joseph Smith. If you want to see the gold plates, 752 00:51:44,610 --> 00:51:46,350 Speaker 1: you've got to come with me out into the woods. 753 00:51:47,350 --> 00:51:50,670 Speaker 1: When I say, and then if you pray really hard 754 00:51:50,750 --> 00:51:52,969 Speaker 1: for the first group for some reason, you can see 755 00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:56,070 Speaker 1: the plates and an angel will show them. The eight, 756 00:51:56,110 --> 00:52:00,160 Speaker 1: we don't know exactly what happened there. But they just, 757 00:52:00,180 --> 00:52:03,089 Speaker 1: they had to go with Joseph. They had to be 758 00:52:03,150 --> 00:52:05,489 Speaker 1: with Joseph and they had to go when he said 759 00:52:05,550 --> 00:52:10,210 Speaker 1: it was time to go with his permission. Jesus just appeared. 760 00:52:10,510 --> 00:52:13,910 Speaker 1: Peter didn't do that. You know, Peter wasn't even present 761 00:52:14,070 --> 00:52:16,800 Speaker 1: at most of the appearances of Jesus in the Gospels. 762 00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,600 Speaker 1: And he certainly didn't prearrange any of them. Peter never 763 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,200 Speaker 1: said to the other disciples, hey, would you like to 764 00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,100 Speaker 1: see Jesus? He's in the other room, but he's kind 765 00:52:28,140 --> 00:52:30,740 Speaker 1: of shy. And if you want to see him, you 766 00:52:30,780 --> 00:52:34,980 Speaker 1: have to pray real hard. and really show yourself spiritually 767 00:52:35,020 --> 00:52:40,420 Speaker 1: worthy and focused, and then I'll let you see Jesus. 768 00:52:41,700 --> 00:52:48,440 Speaker 1: That didn't happen. And that's a huge, tremendous difference between 769 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,819 Speaker 1: the appearances of Jesus in the New Testament and the 770 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,720 Speaker 1: encounters with the gold plates in the story of Joseph Smith. 771 00:52:57,710 --> 00:52:59,890 Speaker 2: First off, Rob, you are not taking us off track. 772 00:52:59,910 --> 00:53:01,969 Speaker 2: This is exactly what I was hoping you would lay 773 00:53:02,050 --> 00:53:05,410 Speaker 2: out for us. And I want to emphasize in Doctrine 774 00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:09,820 Speaker 2: and Covenants 17, Joseph Smith said he obtained a revelation 775 00:53:09,860 --> 00:53:12,060 Speaker 2: from the Lord. He says, So full purpose of heart, 776 00:53:12,100 --> 00:53:25,950 Speaker 2: trust on his word. It says again, that was verse 1, 777 00:53:25,950 --> 00:53:27,710 Speaker 2: verse 2, and it is by your faith you shall 778 00:53:27,750 --> 00:53:30,200 Speaker 2: obtain a view of them, even by that faith which 779 00:53:30,300 --> 00:53:33,279 Speaker 2: was had by the prophets of old. And after you 780 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,160 Speaker 2: have obtained faith and have seen them with your eyes, 781 00:53:36,219 --> 00:53:41,040 Speaker 2: you shall testify about them. So it's built in before 782 00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:44,089 Speaker 2: they even see it that they're kind of called to 783 00:53:44,130 --> 00:53:48,330 Speaker 2: this task of uniquely testifying like the prophets of old, 784 00:53:49,150 --> 00:53:51,529 Speaker 2: which in some ways could land as like, wow, I 785 00:53:51,630 --> 00:53:56,350 Speaker 2: uniquely get to see this spiritual– have the spiritual experience 786 00:53:56,469 --> 00:54:00,350 Speaker 2: and testify of Jesus, then really this would take us aside. 787 00:54:00,370 --> 00:54:03,470 Speaker 2: But verse four says, you shall do that. My servant, 788 00:54:03,550 --> 00:54:08,069 Speaker 2: Joseph Smith, Jr. May not be destroyed. I mean, talk 789 00:54:08,090 --> 00:54:11,950 Speaker 2: about putting emotional pressure on somebody, pray fervently to see this. 790 00:54:12,050 --> 00:54:14,940 Speaker 2: And if you don't all be destroyed, I mean, I 791 00:54:14,980 --> 00:54:17,960 Speaker 2: don't want to overstate this, but it just, it smacks 792 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:22,580 Speaker 2: of such manipulation to me to read this. Frankly, I 793 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,980 Speaker 2: think it is now. To your point earlier, I just 794 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,800 Speaker 2: want to read a couple sources. Harris told skeptic Anthony 795 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,779 Speaker 2: Metcalf that he, quote, never saw the plates except in 796 00:54:31,820 --> 00:54:36,069 Speaker 2: a visionary or entranced state. He said, I never saw 797 00:54:36,110 --> 00:54:38,870 Speaker 2: the golden plates, only a visionary entranced state. I wrote 798 00:54:38,890 --> 00:54:40,670 Speaker 2: a great deal of the Book of Mormon myself, as 799 00:54:40,730 --> 00:54:42,890 Speaker 2: Joseph Smith translated or spelled the words out in English. 800 00:54:43,290 --> 00:54:45,129 Speaker 2: Sometimes the plates would be on a table in the room, 801 00:54:45,270 --> 00:54:48,150 Speaker 2: which Smith did the translating covered with a cloth. I 802 00:54:48,190 --> 00:54:50,560 Speaker 2: was told by Smith that God would strike him dead 803 00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,189 Speaker 2: if he attempted to look at them. And I believe them. 804 00:54:55,530 --> 00:54:58,950 Speaker 2: So there's so many factors here that just add to it. 805 00:54:59,510 --> 00:55:02,419 Speaker 2: And it kind of raises the question, do we have 806 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:07,890 Speaker 2: any actual witnesses of the plates? Now, by witnesses, I 807 00:55:07,930 --> 00:55:10,550 Speaker 2: mean the kind of witnesses we have in the Bible 808 00:55:11,330 --> 00:55:16,020 Speaker 2: are clearly we saw Jesus. He's been transformed, but it's 809 00:55:16,140 --> 00:55:21,160 Speaker 2: the same Jesus. Reach out and touch his ankles. Touch me. 810 00:55:21,540 --> 00:55:25,279 Speaker 2: I'm not a ghost. He eats fish. Now, I know 811 00:55:25,300 --> 00:55:27,359 Speaker 2: skeptics would come in and say that was added later, 812 00:55:27,390 --> 00:55:29,890 Speaker 2: but that is a separate conversation. That is not the 813 00:55:29,930 --> 00:55:33,049 Speaker 2: dialogue we're having here. When you take the appearances as 814 00:55:33,130 --> 00:55:37,029 Speaker 2: a whole, it's not in a visionary state. These are 815 00:55:37,110 --> 00:55:41,150 Speaker 2: genuine eyewitnesses. So we have all over the gospel, John, 816 00:55:41,650 --> 00:55:45,029 Speaker 2: all over Acts. We are witnesses of these things. We 817 00:55:45,090 --> 00:55:47,970 Speaker 2: have seen it. And it's meant in the kind of sense, 818 00:55:48,050 --> 00:55:50,210 Speaker 2: as our friend J. Warner Wallace says, the kind of 819 00:55:50,290 --> 00:55:54,879 Speaker 2: witnesses we would have today to a crime scene. So 820 00:55:55,340 --> 00:55:59,720 Speaker 2: are there any actual witnesses that can testify to holding 821 00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:03,040 Speaker 2: and seeing the plates, not in an entranced state, but 822 00:56:03,219 --> 00:56:06,380 Speaker 2: physically like we see something else? What's your take on that? 823 00:56:07,150 --> 00:56:12,759 Speaker 1: Well, the conventional story, based on the way Mormons usually 824 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,940 Speaker 1: read the testimony of the eight witnesses, is that the 825 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:23,759 Speaker 1: eight witnesses actually held the plates in their hands, touched them, 826 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,480 Speaker 1: were able to feel the pages, maybe turn the pages, 827 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,500 Speaker 1: and so forth. There's a little bit of confusion in 828 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:39,819 Speaker 1: the sources as to beyond the published testimony, as to 829 00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:45,730 Speaker 1: whether the physical manipulation or handling of the plates was 830 00:56:45,910 --> 00:56:49,730 Speaker 1: on the same occasion as when Joseph allowed the eight 831 00:56:50,290 --> 00:56:53,810 Speaker 1: witnesses to view the plates together. And most of the 832 00:56:53,850 --> 00:56:58,000 Speaker 1: sources agreed that it was together. John Whitmer at one 833 00:56:58,060 --> 00:57:00,360 Speaker 1: point said that there were four at one time and 834 00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:05,020 Speaker 1: four another time. Almost nobody believes that. So Joseph shows 835 00:57:05,060 --> 00:57:08,969 Speaker 1: the eight guys the plates all in one go on 836 00:57:09,070 --> 00:57:11,270 Speaker 1: some occasion we don't have the exact date we can 837 00:57:11,330 --> 00:57:16,410 Speaker 1: guess within a few days probably um but is that 838 00:57:16,490 --> 00:57:20,240 Speaker 1: when they actually held the plates and and physically touched 839 00:57:20,470 --> 00:57:23,660 Speaker 1: you know the metal and all that the the source 840 00:57:23,740 --> 00:57:26,440 Speaker 1: the interviews that they did later are a little bit 841 00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:29,500 Speaker 1: confusing on that issue the few that talked about it 842 00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:35,510 Speaker 1: at all actually none of the um eight witnesses except 843 00:57:35,590 --> 00:57:39,650 Speaker 1: John Whitmer ever said anything publicly that got written down 844 00:57:40,430 --> 00:57:44,910 Speaker 1: after the testimony was published in the Book of Mormon. 845 00:57:45,390 --> 00:57:49,820 Speaker 1: The other seven of the eight witnesses either died too 846 00:57:49,900 --> 00:57:54,900 Speaker 1: soon or just never said anything or didn't say anything 847 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:58,140 Speaker 1: because they were estranged, but they didn't come out and 848 00:57:59,540 --> 00:58:05,750 Speaker 1: criticize the Book of Mormon. The three So as I mentioned, 849 00:58:05,770 --> 00:58:11,190 Speaker 1: John Whitmer, one of David's brothers, said a very little bit, 850 00:58:11,350 --> 00:58:15,380 Speaker 1: not much. At one point, he said something about being 851 00:58:15,450 --> 00:58:19,880 Speaker 1: shown the plates by a supernatural power. Does that mean 852 00:58:19,940 --> 00:58:25,140 Speaker 1: it was a spiritual experience? It's unclear. Then of the 853 00:58:25,220 --> 00:58:32,050 Speaker 1: three witnesses, the first group, two of them gave extensive interviews, 854 00:58:32,810 --> 00:58:39,150 Speaker 1: mostly in the 1870s. So that's, you know, 40 plus 855 00:58:39,190 --> 00:58:45,070 Speaker 1: years later. They're talking to newspaper reporters and others about 856 00:58:45,110 --> 00:58:51,550 Speaker 1: their experiences, and they talk about seeing the plates. And 857 00:58:51,710 --> 00:58:55,490 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, several times they said things that seemed 858 00:58:55,510 --> 00:58:58,790 Speaker 1: to indicate that the plates were not shown to them 859 00:58:58,930 --> 00:59:03,330 Speaker 1: in a physically solid, you know, form that they could 860 00:59:04,020 --> 00:59:05,930 Speaker 1: that they could have reached out and touched or something. 861 00:59:09,770 --> 00:59:13,470 Speaker 1: At one point, David Whitmer was asked if it was 862 00:59:13,530 --> 00:59:18,400 Speaker 1: similar to a Quaker experience of something spiritual, and he said, yeah, 863 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:30,290 Speaker 1: it was. I'll just cut to kind of my where 864 00:59:30,350 --> 00:59:32,410 Speaker 1: I am on the sort of on this issue. I 865 00:59:32,470 --> 00:59:36,670 Speaker 1: think the eight witnesses probably saw something. Okay. I think 866 00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:41,540 Speaker 1: they probably saw metal plates. I'm at this point. And 867 00:59:41,620 --> 00:59:45,040 Speaker 1: for several years now, I've taken this position. I took 868 00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,979 Speaker 1: it in that book that I mentioned earlier, that was published. Gee, 869 00:59:48,100 --> 00:59:55,850 Speaker 1: six years ago now. Time flies. And my, my view 870 00:59:56,010 --> 01:00:00,130 Speaker 1: is that more than likely, although I, Nobody can prove 871 01:00:00,550 --> 01:00:03,650 Speaker 1: that this is true or that it isn't true. More 872 01:00:03,690 --> 01:00:08,550 Speaker 1: than likely, Joseph had a set of metal plates. He 873 01:00:08,590 --> 01:00:13,640 Speaker 1: may have constructed them himself. His father's farm included a 874 01:00:13,780 --> 01:00:16,880 Speaker 1: cooper shop. That's an old-fashioned term for a place where 875 01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:20,780 Speaker 1: you worked with tin and copper and, you know, made things, 876 01:00:20,860 --> 01:00:22,940 Speaker 1: made buckets or whatever, you know, that you needed on 877 01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,200 Speaker 1: the farm. And he may have well made some plates 878 01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,890 Speaker 1: out of the tins. And there's a couple of interesting 879 01:00:29,970 --> 01:00:33,800 Speaker 1: comments that Joseph and others made years later about the 880 01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:37,320 Speaker 1: gold plates, saying that they were something similar to tin, 881 01:00:37,540 --> 01:00:40,180 Speaker 1: you know, or that the pages were almost the same 882 01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:45,640 Speaker 1: thickness as tin. Maybe because they were, you know. We 883 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:50,040 Speaker 1: can't prove that because nobody can prove anything about the 884 01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:54,440 Speaker 1: plates because they don't exist, at least in any form 885 01:00:54,460 --> 01:01:00,170 Speaker 1: that anybody can find. But it's a reasonable hypothesis. So 886 01:01:00,230 --> 01:01:03,270 Speaker 1: I'm willing to concede for the sake of argument, let's say, 887 01:01:03,530 --> 01:01:06,330 Speaker 1: that Joseph may well have had some plates, and they 888 01:01:06,370 --> 01:01:09,610 Speaker 1: may have looked like gold plates to the men in 889 01:01:09,630 --> 01:01:15,400 Speaker 1: the eight witnesses. I'm less confident that Joseph showed actual 890 01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,800 Speaker 1: plates to the three, but that's also possible. Who knows? 891 01:01:19,980 --> 01:01:23,100 Speaker 1: What I can say definitively is that none of them 892 01:01:23,180 --> 01:01:27,070 Speaker 1: knew what was on those plates. They didn't know that 893 01:01:27,110 --> 01:01:32,010 Speaker 1: they were written in any particular language or any script 894 01:01:32,030 --> 01:01:36,300 Speaker 1: that they could identify as to its linguistic nature. They 895 01:01:36,340 --> 01:01:38,960 Speaker 1: certainly didn't know what it would mean if you translated 896 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,220 Speaker 1: it into English, if it was translatable. They reportedly saw, 897 01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,940 Speaker 1: I'm going to use, I'm sorry if this sounds pejorative, 898 01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,340 Speaker 1: I don't mean it that way. They reportedly saw squiggles 899 01:01:50,620 --> 01:01:53,890 Speaker 1: on the metal plates that they took as ancient characters. 900 01:01:54,770 --> 01:01:57,650 Speaker 1: but they couldn't reproduce them, and they didn't know what 901 01:01:57,710 --> 01:02:01,840 Speaker 1: they meant. So at most, the testimony of the eight 902 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:08,680 Speaker 1: witnesses confirms for all but the skeptic who just doesn't 903 01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,340 Speaker 1: want to think that there were plates, that they very 904 01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:14,160 Speaker 1: well may have seen metal plates, but that doesn't prove 905 01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:19,550 Speaker 1: the Book of Mormon is true. That's kind of where 906 01:02:19,610 --> 01:02:23,740 Speaker 1: I land on this. I'm open to being corrected. but 907 01:02:23,860 --> 01:02:26,580 Speaker 1: I don't know of any good evidence that they, that 908 01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:31,980 Speaker 1: he didn't have plates. Uh, and he may well have 909 01:02:32,020 --> 01:02:35,180 Speaker 1: had some metal plates and he may well have constructed 910 01:02:35,220 --> 01:02:39,640 Speaker 1: them into a, a kind of a book, uh, like, uh, uh, 911 01:02:39,780 --> 01:02:42,720 Speaker 1: artifice with the, the, the rings that he said were 912 01:02:44,340 --> 01:02:48,280 Speaker 1: bound them together. And, uh, so that may have, that 913 01:02:48,340 --> 01:02:52,510 Speaker 1: may have been the case. Um, But it's very peculiar 914 01:02:52,610 --> 01:02:55,960 Speaker 1: that he didn't show anybody these plates for something like 915 01:02:56,040 --> 01:03:01,660 Speaker 1: two years after he allegedly took custody of them. He 916 01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:07,450 Speaker 1: never showed them to his wife. Not once. It's not 917 01:03:07,470 --> 01:03:09,710 Speaker 1: that she wasn't around. I mean she had to dust 918 01:03:09,790 --> 01:03:11,810 Speaker 1: under them reportedly. 919 01:03:11,830 --> 01:03:13,910 Speaker 2: His first wife, Emma, is the key. 920 01:03:14,150 --> 01:03:18,010 Speaker 1: He never showed them to his mother. She was one 921 01:03:18,030 --> 01:03:21,200 Speaker 1: of his biggest supporters. He never showed them to her. 922 01:03:21,620 --> 01:03:23,760 Speaker 1: He never showed them to his wife. Of course, he 923 01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,760 Speaker 1: wouldn't show them to Lucy Harris, who was Martin's doubting wife, 924 01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:31,240 Speaker 1: who was very upset about the whole thing and upset 925 01:03:31,300 --> 01:03:35,250 Speaker 1: about Martin wasting his time and money on it. He 926 01:03:35,290 --> 01:03:38,270 Speaker 1: wouldn't show her the plates either. That I could kind 927 01:03:38,310 --> 01:03:41,290 Speaker 1: of understand, but not showing his mother or his wife. 928 01:03:42,790 --> 01:03:46,740 Speaker 1: What's wrong with this picture? It Then we have this 929 01:03:46,780 --> 01:03:50,690 Speaker 1: story that comes up like 50 years later. Well, I'm sorry, 930 01:03:50,710 --> 01:03:56,430 Speaker 1: I'm exaggerating. 40 plus years later from David Whitmer that 931 01:03:56,610 --> 01:03:59,430 Speaker 1: his mother, Mary was out in the barn, I guess 932 01:03:59,450 --> 01:04:02,610 Speaker 1: to milk a cow or something. And she saw this 933 01:04:02,770 --> 01:04:05,850 Speaker 1: old man that turned out to be the angel Moroni 934 01:04:06,010 --> 01:04:10,160 Speaker 1: and Moroni showed her the plates. This is before any 935 01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:12,930 Speaker 1: of the 11 witnesses got to see them too. Um, 936 01:04:15,350 --> 01:04:18,810 Speaker 1: I don't really buy David's story about Mary, but it's 937 01:04:18,870 --> 01:04:21,980 Speaker 1: one of those folkloric things that you can't prove or disprove. 938 01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,180 Speaker 1: But why would the Lord have an angel show the 939 01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:31,520 Speaker 1: plates to Mary Whitmer, but not to Lucy Smith or 940 01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:36,160 Speaker 1: Emma Smith? That doesn't make any sense. They never did 941 01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:40,240 Speaker 1: get to see the plates. They were taken away, and 942 01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,689 Speaker 1: these faithful women that Supporter Joseph, through thick and thin, 943 01:04:45,910 --> 01:04:46,750 Speaker 1: never got to see them. 944 01:04:47,890 --> 01:04:49,570 Speaker 2: Rob, that's a good take. Let me read a couple things, 945 01:04:49,630 --> 01:04:51,780 Speaker 2: and I'll have you kind of give some wrap-up thoughts here. 946 01:04:51,820 --> 01:04:55,320 Speaker 2: This is in Bill McKeever's article on Did the Eleven 947 01:04:55,380 --> 01:05:00,080 Speaker 2: Witnesses See the Plates? Apparently, on April 5, 1839, Theodore 948 01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:03,290 Speaker 2: Turley challenged John Whitmer to either affirm or deny his 949 01:05:03,330 --> 01:05:07,640 Speaker 2: testimony regarding the golden plates. Whitmer responded by saying the 950 01:05:07,700 --> 01:05:11,140 Speaker 2: plates were, quote, shown to me by a supernatural power. 951 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:15,450 Speaker 2: This is the history of the church 3307. And McKeever asks, 952 01:05:15,630 --> 01:05:18,070 Speaker 2: why would the supernatural power be necessary if the plates 953 01:05:18,170 --> 01:05:23,810 Speaker 2: actually existed? Again, super fair question. So Robert N. Hollinger 954 01:05:23,830 --> 01:05:27,010 Speaker 2: on page 133 of his book Joseph Smith's Response to 955 01:05:27,050 --> 01:05:31,010 Speaker 2: Skepticism wrote, the written testimony of the eight witnesses differed 956 01:05:31,050 --> 01:05:34,220 Speaker 2: from that of the three witnesses. They claimed no revelation, 957 01:05:34,510 --> 01:05:36,700 Speaker 2: no voice declared to them that the work is true, 958 01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:40,520 Speaker 2: no power of God showed them the plates, just Joseph Smith. 959 01:05:41,100 --> 01:05:43,220 Speaker 2: No angel of God laid the plates before them. No 960 01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,300 Speaker 2: voice of the Lord told them to testify of what 961 01:05:45,340 --> 01:05:48,580 Speaker 2: they saw. For that reason, Edward Meyer concluded the testimony 962 01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:50,580 Speaker 2: of the eight witnesses was written primarily as a further 963 01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:52,720 Speaker 2: evidence that Smith and Ede had the plates rather than 964 01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:56,880 Speaker 2: as a demonstration of modern-day revelation. However, the eight did 965 01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:01,570 Speaker 2: claim revelation in their conversations with others subsequently. When David 966 01:06:01,590 --> 01:06:04,160 Speaker 2: and Mark stopped at the Whitmer's on March 1830, the 967 01:06:04,180 --> 01:06:07,220 Speaker 2: eight witnesses, quote, affirmed that an angel had showed them 968 01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:10,100 Speaker 2: certain plates of metal having the appearance of gold that 969 01:06:10,140 --> 01:06:12,800 Speaker 2: were dug out of the ground by one Joseph Smith, 970 01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:17,370 Speaker 2: end quote. They explained to Mark certain basic points about 971 01:06:17,390 --> 01:06:19,910 Speaker 2: the Book of Mormon and its contents, but claimed to 972 01:06:19,950 --> 01:06:24,510 Speaker 2: have viewed the plates in vision only. So minimally, the 973 01:06:24,550 --> 01:06:28,680 Speaker 2: few times they've spoken, there's very contradictory testimony about what 974 01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:30,940 Speaker 2: they saw there. how they saw it, whether it was 975 01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:35,620 Speaker 2: physical or spiritual, also like the three, which calls it 976 01:06:35,700 --> 01:06:39,820 Speaker 2: into question. In this new biography on Joseph Smith by 977 01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:43,780 Speaker 2: John Turner, who I think is just a very fair historian, 978 01:06:44,390 --> 01:06:46,850 Speaker 2: he says the people closest to Joseph Smith, his wife, 979 01:06:46,910 --> 01:06:49,330 Speaker 2: his parents, his siblings, and a few friends all believed him. 980 01:06:49,970 --> 01:06:51,750 Speaker 2: At the same time, because he did not show his 981 01:06:51,790 --> 01:06:55,570 Speaker 2: family and friends the plates, there aren't witnesses in the 982 01:06:55,690 --> 01:07:00,720 Speaker 2: ordinary sense of the term. That's a powerful distinction, if 983 01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:03,730 Speaker 2: he's right, from the witnesses that we have to the 984 01:07:03,810 --> 01:07:06,630 Speaker 2: risen Jesus. Then you skip down, he says, along with 985 01:07:06,670 --> 01:07:09,570 Speaker 2: an acknowledgement of the scanty evidence for this critical episode 986 01:07:09,590 --> 01:07:13,189 Speaker 2: in Joseph Smith's life, readers deserve an author's best sense 987 01:07:13,210 --> 01:07:15,990 Speaker 2: of what transpired. In this case, it is that Joseph 988 01:07:16,030 --> 01:07:19,680 Speaker 2: Smith did not have golden plates. When someone refuses to 989 01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:24,200 Speaker 2: show a hidden valuable object to others, the simplest explanation 990 01:07:24,780 --> 01:07:28,520 Speaker 2: is that he does not possess it. Now, that makes sense. 991 01:07:28,700 --> 01:07:32,800 Speaker 2: That's a reasonable conclusion. But your point is, even if 992 01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:35,890 Speaker 2: he had it, what would this prove? And I don't 993 01:07:35,930 --> 01:07:37,990 Speaker 2: know why I don't hear enough people saying this. There's 994 01:07:38,030 --> 01:07:42,490 Speaker 2: a qualitative difference between seeing golden plates. that by their 995 01:07:42,530 --> 01:07:46,810 Speaker 2: very nature are not necessarily supernatural. Anybody could make them. 996 01:07:47,170 --> 01:07:51,750 Speaker 2: We've seen replicas of these today. I've held them myself, 997 01:07:52,410 --> 01:07:55,880 Speaker 2: seen them with my physical eyes. Even if all of 998 01:07:55,910 --> 01:07:59,840 Speaker 2: them saw the plates, that's qualitatively different than seeing a 999 01:07:59,900 --> 01:08:05,540 Speaker 2: person alive who was dead three days earlier and crucified 1000 01:08:05,980 --> 01:08:08,880 Speaker 2: and the wounds are gone. So in some ways, I'm 1001 01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:12,340 Speaker 2: super skeptical of the story. I'm super skeptical that they're 1002 01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:15,240 Speaker 2: witnesses at all. But even if they were witnesses, it 1003 01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:20,309 Speaker 2: wouldn't prove anything supernatural about the contents they're in. Do 1004 01:08:20,370 --> 01:08:22,189 Speaker 2: you agree with that assessment? Tell us what you think. 1005 01:08:22,510 --> 01:08:27,630 Speaker 1: Yes. Now, look, the testimony of the eight witnesses wasn't 1006 01:08:27,689 --> 01:08:30,790 Speaker 1: written by any of the eight witnesses. It was a 1007 01:08:30,850 --> 01:08:34,820 Speaker 1: document that was drafted for them, probably by Oliver Cowdery 1008 01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:41,880 Speaker 1: and or Joseph Smith. It's written in a quasi-legal style 1009 01:08:42,100 --> 01:08:45,280 Speaker 1: like an affidavit. It's written like it's a legal document 1010 01:08:45,620 --> 01:08:50,229 Speaker 1: that they're going to sign as the signatories to this affidavit. 1011 01:08:50,390 --> 01:08:53,330 Speaker 1: So is the testimony of the three witnesses. I mean, 1012 01:08:53,350 --> 01:08:57,370 Speaker 1: there's religious language interwoven through it, but the style and 1013 01:08:57,390 --> 01:08:59,630 Speaker 1: a lot of the specific kinds of statements that are 1014 01:08:59,670 --> 01:09:05,760 Speaker 1: made are clearly in a legal cachet. And yet, neither 1015 01:09:05,820 --> 01:09:10,260 Speaker 1: of these two documents has a date. Neither of them 1016 01:09:10,380 --> 01:09:16,380 Speaker 1: says where they were when they had the experience, where 1017 01:09:16,420 --> 01:09:21,939 Speaker 1: they were or when they signed the document. neither document 1018 01:09:21,979 --> 01:09:27,769 Speaker 1: gives any particulars at all about the specific occasion of 1019 01:09:27,830 --> 01:09:31,630 Speaker 1: the witnessing of the plates or the signing of the document. 1020 01:09:32,470 --> 01:09:35,990 Speaker 1: We don't have a copy. We don't have the paper 1021 01:09:36,510 --> 01:09:41,389 Speaker 1: on which the witnesses allegedly signed the documents. We have 1022 01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:46,580 Speaker 1: handwritten copy of the documents all in Oliver Cowdery's hand. 1023 01:09:47,410 --> 01:09:50,229 Speaker 1: He writes all the names of the signatories at the 1024 01:09:50,270 --> 01:09:56,370 Speaker 1: bottom of the document. Did they ever sign the document? Well, 1025 01:09:57,110 --> 01:09:59,440 Speaker 1: one or two of them said that they did, but 1026 01:10:00,229 --> 01:10:05,080 Speaker 1: they didn't draft it. Oliver Cowdery probably drafted it, again, 1027 01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:09,920 Speaker 1: maybe with some input from Joseph Smith. It's a boilerplate 1028 01:10:09,939 --> 01:10:18,059 Speaker 1: document with none of the elements that are supposed to 1029 01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:23,090 Speaker 1: make it an official attestation to an event in 19th 1030 01:10:23,150 --> 01:10:28,429 Speaker 1: century way of composing such a document. Again, no date, 1031 01:10:30,410 --> 01:10:36,280 Speaker 1: no witness by some judge or something, or law clerk. 1032 01:10:36,300 --> 01:10:40,780 Speaker 1: There's nothing like that. It looks like a document that 1033 01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:44,050 Speaker 1: was drafted and the guys were told, look, sign this 1034 01:10:44,170 --> 01:10:46,790 Speaker 1: or say that you signed it, and then that can 1035 01:10:46,830 --> 01:10:49,760 Speaker 1: be included in the published Book of Mormon, and your 1036 01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:53,100 Speaker 1: names will go down in posterity as among these witnesses. 1037 01:10:54,060 --> 01:10:56,840 Speaker 1: Did they actually see something or not? It's hard to know. 1038 01:10:57,460 --> 01:11:01,460 Speaker 1: That's why I say I'm willing to concede that Joseph 1039 01:11:01,500 --> 01:11:04,900 Speaker 1: may have had plates, and very likely it seems that 1040 01:11:04,939 --> 01:11:08,800 Speaker 1: he did, but it isn't necessarily the case. We don't 1041 01:11:08,820 --> 01:11:12,070 Speaker 1: really know. Some of these unanswered questions, and also there 1042 01:11:12,090 --> 01:11:14,790 Speaker 1: are unanswered questions about the contents of the Book of Mormon. 1043 01:11:15,770 --> 01:11:19,390 Speaker 1: Some of these unanswered questions are unanswered for one simple reason. 1044 01:11:19,610 --> 01:11:25,290 Speaker 1: Joseph Smith was secretive. He manipulated the circumstances so that 1045 01:11:25,350 --> 01:11:32,480 Speaker 1: he was always in control. All of the first-generation miraculous 1046 01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:39,310 Speaker 1: experiences or visions that allegedly were foundational to Mormonism the 1047 01:11:39,350 --> 01:11:44,050 Speaker 1: first vision, the appearances of the angel Moroni, and there 1048 01:11:44,090 --> 01:11:46,010 Speaker 1: were a bunch of those, over a dozen of those, 1049 01:11:46,710 --> 01:11:50,180 Speaker 1: the appearance of the angel with the plates to the 1050 01:11:50,220 --> 01:11:56,080 Speaker 1: three witnesses, the appearance of John the Baptist and of Peter, James, 1051 01:11:56,120 --> 01:12:00,540 Speaker 1: and John to Joseph and Oliver Cowdery to establish the priesthoods. 1052 01:12:01,780 --> 01:12:06,970 Speaker 1: All of these, Joseph was present. All of these, Joseph 1053 01:12:07,060 --> 01:12:11,439 Speaker 1: dictated when these would occur. or he alone experienced them, 1054 01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:15,099 Speaker 1: as in the case of the first vision. You're basically 1055 01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:19,180 Speaker 1: dependent on Joseph Smith for the whole shebang. Also, the 1056 01:12:19,220 --> 01:12:22,380 Speaker 1: vision of what was on the gold plates and what 1057 01:12:22,420 --> 01:12:25,760 Speaker 1: it meant, that's dependent on Joseph alone. He's got his head, 1058 01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:28,700 Speaker 1: his face buried in the hat, and he's dictating what 1059 01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,460 Speaker 1: supposedly the gold plate said in English. But nobody can 1060 01:12:32,540 --> 01:12:36,630 Speaker 1: see the stone, let alone anything else that might confirm this, 1061 01:12:37,330 --> 01:12:45,370 Speaker 1: except Joseph. Christianity does not depend on the testimony of 1062 01:12:45,530 --> 01:12:49,280 Speaker 1: one mortal human being in this fashion. If you don't 1063 01:12:49,340 --> 01:12:52,420 Speaker 1: accept Peter, well, then there's Paul and vice versa. And 1064 01:12:52,460 --> 01:12:57,860 Speaker 1: there's also John. And these are all eyewitnesses. And you're 1065 01:12:57,900 --> 01:13:01,410 Speaker 1: not being asked to accept anyone's word for anything. You're 1066 01:13:01,430 --> 01:13:09,330 Speaker 1: not being asked to accept anyone's experiences for anything. All 1067 01:13:09,350 --> 01:13:14,189 Speaker 1: of these appearances of Christ in the New Testament are 1068 01:13:14,290 --> 01:13:18,850 Speaker 1: on such varied occasions with varied individuals. I count at 1069 01:13:19,010 --> 01:13:25,110 Speaker 1: least 10 different experiences or events involving at least 20 1070 01:13:25,110 --> 01:13:28,350 Speaker 1: different people, and that's not even counting the appearance to 1071 01:13:28,370 --> 01:13:32,380 Speaker 1: the 500 mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15.6. We just set 1072 01:13:32,420 --> 01:13:35,600 Speaker 1: that one aside and say, look, we've got something like 1073 01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:38,439 Speaker 1: 20 or more people, we can count them and we 1074 01:13:38,479 --> 01:13:41,700 Speaker 1: can name almost all of them, that we are told 1075 01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:46,920 Speaker 1: had this experience of seeing the risen Christ on various occasions. 1076 01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:50,520 Speaker 1: None of them were there for even a majority of them. 1077 01:13:53,100 --> 01:13:57,689 Speaker 1: They were all unannounced. Jesus just shows up wherever he pleases, 1078 01:13:59,010 --> 01:14:04,570 Speaker 1: to whomever he pleases, whenever he chooses. And that is 1079 01:14:04,630 --> 01:14:07,630 Speaker 1: such a different situation than what we have in the 1080 01:14:07,670 --> 01:14:10,729 Speaker 1: case of the book of Mormon gold plates and Joseph Smith. 1081 01:14:11,150 --> 01:14:15,479 Speaker 1: It all comes back to, do you believe Joseph Smith? 1082 01:14:15,500 --> 01:14:19,720 Speaker 1: Do you trust him? Or was he a manipulator? Now 1083 01:14:19,900 --> 01:14:21,680 Speaker 1: I have to be honest with you. When I first 1084 01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:26,759 Speaker 1: started really researching Joseph Smith in a very serious fashion, 1085 01:14:27,100 --> 01:14:30,099 Speaker 1: his whole life and all of these things, I didn't 1086 01:14:30,150 --> 01:14:33,719 Speaker 1: know what to make of Joseph. Uh, Was he telling 1087 01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:39,560 Speaker 1: the truth? Was he demonically inspired? Was he a deceiver, 1088 01:14:39,580 --> 01:14:42,759 Speaker 1: a con artist? I was willing to follow the evidence 1089 01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:46,640 Speaker 1: wherever it led. Honestly, if it led to me concluding 1090 01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:51,830 Speaker 1: that Mormonism was true, okay, well, then it's true. That's 1091 01:14:51,850 --> 01:14:54,830 Speaker 1: how I felt about it. But I had good reasons 1092 01:14:54,890 --> 01:14:57,070 Speaker 1: already to think that wasn't the case, but I was 1093 01:14:57,130 --> 01:15:01,010 Speaker 1: still open to investigating whether Joseph was sincere or not. 1094 01:15:03,010 --> 01:15:06,910 Speaker 1: I came very reluctantly to the conclusion that he was not, 1095 01:15:07,830 --> 01:15:10,809 Speaker 1: that he was a con artist, that he was pulling 1096 01:15:10,900 --> 01:15:15,700 Speaker 1: shell games on people, that he was manipulating people. Look, 1097 01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:20,880 Speaker 1: if you pray really, really, really hard, maybe God will 1098 01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:23,060 Speaker 1: let you see the plates. You know, this kind of 1099 01:15:23,100 --> 01:15:29,679 Speaker 1: thing creates an expectation and puts pressure on the person 1100 01:15:29,740 --> 01:15:33,540 Speaker 1: to feel that they're going to have this experience. and 1101 01:15:33,580 --> 01:15:36,860 Speaker 1: sort of primes the pump so that they do. Just 1102 01:15:36,939 --> 01:15:41,140 Speaker 1: like children in the LDS church being taught from the 1103 01:15:41,180 --> 01:15:44,800 Speaker 1: day they can start understanding words, that you need to 1104 01:15:44,860 --> 01:15:49,200 Speaker 1: have this experience of the testimony of the Holy Ghost, 1105 01:15:49,660 --> 01:15:52,120 Speaker 1: that the Book of Mormon is true, and that Joseph 1106 01:15:52,140 --> 01:15:54,559 Speaker 1: Smith is a prophet of God, and the LDS church 1107 01:15:54,620 --> 01:15:56,960 Speaker 1: is the true church, because that's how you'll know, and 1108 01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:00,060 Speaker 1: that's how you'll become a strong believer and have a 1109 01:16:00,979 --> 01:16:04,000 Speaker 1: healthy life. spiritual and moral life. You've got to have 1110 01:16:04,060 --> 01:16:07,640 Speaker 1: that testimony. And they're coached to learn how to do that. 1111 01:16:08,780 --> 01:16:12,509 Speaker 1: And naturally, a lot of people who are raised in 1112 01:16:12,550 --> 01:16:15,910 Speaker 1: the LDS church end up having that kind of experience. 1113 01:16:17,870 --> 01:16:23,530 Speaker 1: I'm not criticizing those individuals or saying they're insincere, but 1114 01:16:23,590 --> 01:16:30,130 Speaker 1: I'm saying that they're in a system that is inherently manipulative, 1115 01:16:30,510 --> 01:16:37,120 Speaker 1: spiritually manipulative. And it started with the grand spiritual manipulator, 1116 01:16:37,479 --> 01:16:42,519 Speaker 1: Joseph Smith himself. I don't say that to be unkind 1117 01:16:42,680 --> 01:16:47,300 Speaker 1: or hateful even toward Joseph Smith, but reluctantly forced by 1118 01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:50,140 Speaker 1: the evidence to conclude that he knew what he was 1119 01:16:50,180 --> 01:16:54,360 Speaker 1: saying wasn't true. And I try to go into that 1120 01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:58,810 Speaker 1: in that book that I mentioned, Jesus' resurrection and Joseph's visions. 1121 01:16:58,890 --> 01:17:01,530 Speaker 1: I'd rather not think that of anybody. I'd rather think 1122 01:17:01,590 --> 01:17:06,330 Speaker 1: the best of them. I'd rather think Joseph was just mistaken, 1123 01:17:06,890 --> 01:17:09,040 Speaker 1: but the evidence just won't support that. 1124 01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:13,759 Speaker 2: Rob, your book is fantastic. Jesus' resurrection and Joseph's vision. 1125 01:17:13,780 --> 01:17:17,420 Speaker 2: I've had you stream into my resurrection class in the past, 1126 01:17:17,500 --> 01:17:19,500 Speaker 2: and I don't remember if I forwarded this on to 1127 01:17:19,540 --> 01:17:22,490 Speaker 2: you or not. There it is. But my students really 1128 01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:24,930 Speaker 2: commented like that was fascinating and they loved it. It 1129 01:17:24,990 --> 01:17:28,309 Speaker 2: was so interesting. And like this, it's a deep dive. 1130 01:17:28,410 --> 01:17:31,950 Speaker 2: It's very fair. It's balanced. You're informed. You took your time. 1131 01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:37,000 Speaker 2: So it's Jesus' resurrection, Joseph's visions, examining the foundations of 1132 01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:41,009 Speaker 2: Christianity and Mormonism. I have one last question for you. 1133 01:17:41,020 --> 01:17:42,920 Speaker 2: We've got just a couple minutes as we wrap up. 1134 01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:45,860 Speaker 2: We were chatting before, and you had mentioned the death 1135 01:17:46,010 --> 01:17:49,469 Speaker 2: of the apostles and how that plays in here. Obviously, 1136 01:17:49,490 --> 01:17:51,410 Speaker 2: I did research on that. I have my two cents, 1137 01:17:51,510 --> 01:17:54,740 Speaker 2: but you didn't tell me how you see it weighing into– 1138 01:17:54,990 --> 01:17:56,870 Speaker 2: trusting the witnesses or not. So I'd love to hear 1139 01:17:56,910 --> 01:17:57,580 Speaker 2: your take on it. 1140 01:17:57,970 --> 01:18:03,430 Speaker 1: Yes. Joseph Smith Jr., the founding prophet of the LDS Church, 1141 01:18:03,490 --> 01:18:06,910 Speaker 1: and his brother Hiram Smith were killed in a blazing 1142 01:18:06,950 --> 01:18:10,519 Speaker 1: gun battle in 1844. They had been put in jail. 1143 01:18:11,340 --> 01:18:16,080 Speaker 1: A mob stormed the jail. A gunfire broke out. Joseph 1144 01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:18,600 Speaker 1: had a pistol of some sort that he used to 1145 01:18:18,660 --> 01:18:22,100 Speaker 1: shoot back. But he and his brother Hiram were killed. 1146 01:18:23,020 --> 01:18:26,380 Speaker 1: That was a terrible thing. the mob acted in an 1147 01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:30,380 Speaker 1: atrocious fashion. They should not have done that, not only 1148 01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:33,220 Speaker 1: because you just shouldn't do things like that, which I 1149 01:18:33,300 --> 01:18:35,780 Speaker 1: totally agree you shouldn't do things like that, but because 1150 01:18:35,860 --> 01:18:38,929 Speaker 1: in doing that, they ended up making Joseph and Hiram 1151 01:18:38,990 --> 01:18:45,790 Speaker 1: into apparent martyrs. And Mormons to this day say the most, 1152 01:18:46,370 --> 01:18:51,479 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sorry, egregiously grand things about what wonderful 1153 01:18:51,540 --> 01:18:57,160 Speaker 1: martyrs Joseph and Hiram were. Well, and supposedly they were 1154 01:18:57,220 --> 01:18:59,930 Speaker 1: killed because of their testimony to the Book of Mormon 1155 01:19:00,550 --> 01:19:06,250 Speaker 1: or Joseph's testimony that he had seen Jesus. nobody in 1156 01:19:06,250 --> 01:19:08,840 Speaker 1: 1844 really knew anything about that. They knew that Joseph 1157 01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:13,140 Speaker 1: Smith had been practicing polygamy, uh, that he was planning 1158 01:19:13,180 --> 01:19:17,280 Speaker 1: to run for president, uh, that he had, uh, a 1159 01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:20,780 Speaker 1: printing press in, in his town destroyed. Uh, they knew 1160 01:19:20,850 --> 01:19:25,390 Speaker 1: these kinds of things. That's why he got arrested, arrested. 1161 01:19:25,490 --> 01:19:28,130 Speaker 1: That's why he ended up getting killed. The polygamy issue 1162 01:19:28,170 --> 01:19:33,170 Speaker 1: was especially, uh, bothersome to the populace. Uh, and, um, 1163 01:19:34,400 --> 01:19:37,880 Speaker 1: He wasn't killed because of his faithful testimony to what 1164 01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:44,560 Speaker 1: he had seen, as Mormons would like to think. So, 1165 01:19:46,310 --> 01:19:49,229 Speaker 1: of course, the apostles, on the other hand, the New 1166 01:19:49,270 --> 01:19:55,890 Speaker 1: Testament apostles, were not accused of crimes of any sort, really, 1167 01:19:56,390 --> 01:19:59,290 Speaker 1: except the crime of preaching that Jesus was the real 1168 01:19:59,370 --> 01:20:06,080 Speaker 1: King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And so— various apostles, 1169 01:20:06,939 --> 01:20:09,599 Speaker 1: at least four or five that we can be pretty 1170 01:20:09,740 --> 01:20:17,799 Speaker 1: sure about. James, the brother of John, sons of Zebedee, 1171 01:20:17,860 --> 01:20:22,220 Speaker 1: James got killed, Acts 12. Peter and Paul were put 1172 01:20:22,280 --> 01:20:26,920 Speaker 1: to death under Nero and his persecution around 64, 65, 1173 01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:32,810 Speaker 1: something like that. James, the brother's the Lord of the brothers, 1174 01:20:32,890 --> 01:20:35,410 Speaker 1: the brother's Lord, the Lord's brother. I can't talk now. 1175 01:20:35,450 --> 01:20:40,299 Speaker 1: I'm tired. Apparently James, the Lord's brother was killed in 1176 01:20:40,900 --> 01:20:46,300 Speaker 1: Jerusalem in AD 62. It's reported in Josephus works. It's 1177 01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:48,639 Speaker 1: not something in the Bible. It's in Josephus. 1178 01:20:48,820 --> 01:20:48,939 Speaker 2: Yep. 1179 01:20:49,280 --> 01:20:53,150 Speaker 1: So there's four. And in each case, it's pretty clear 1180 01:20:53,229 --> 01:20:57,170 Speaker 1: that they were killed because of their stance as Christians, 1181 01:20:58,770 --> 01:21:03,459 Speaker 1: particularly in the case of the apostles and, for Jesus' 1182 01:21:03,640 --> 01:21:07,559 Speaker 1: resurrection and the truth of Jesus' claims. They were not 1183 01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:11,740 Speaker 1: killed because they were political rabble-rousers or anything like that. 1184 01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:17,310 Speaker 1: Certainly not because they were doing something immoral. So the 1185 01:21:17,350 --> 01:21:20,050 Speaker 1: fact that the apostles, and there are other apostles we 1186 01:21:20,090 --> 01:21:24,950 Speaker 1: have pretty decent traditions about that very likely were also martyred, 1187 01:21:25,010 --> 01:21:29,410 Speaker 1: but the evidence falls short of of the evidence for 1188 01:21:29,430 --> 01:21:32,870 Speaker 1: those four, I would say. I agree. And you have 1189 01:21:33,070 --> 01:21:35,950 Speaker 1: a wonderful book on this subject called The Fate of 1190 01:21:35,990 --> 01:21:36,639 Speaker 1: the Apostles. 1191 01:21:36,650 --> 01:21:36,990 Speaker 2: Oh, thanks. 1192 01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:41,300 Speaker 1: I'm not just saying that, Sean. I've read several books 1193 01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:46,560 Speaker 1: on the subject. Yours was by far the best. And 1194 01:21:47,460 --> 01:21:50,900 Speaker 1: if I could say this, and I don't mean this 1195 01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:55,559 Speaker 1: any other way except just flat out making the interesting observation. Okay. 1196 01:21:56,090 --> 01:21:58,979 Speaker 1: Your approach to the evidence is basically the kind of 1197 01:21:59,070 --> 01:22:03,570 Speaker 1: approach I've advocated in this book on Jesus' resurrection and 1198 01:22:03,610 --> 01:22:06,560 Speaker 1: Joseph's visions. Let's take a good, hard look at the 1199 01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:10,439 Speaker 1: historical evidence. Let's not go beyond the evidence. Let's be 1200 01:22:10,500 --> 01:22:14,960 Speaker 1: cautious where the evidence is less than proof. But let's 1201 01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:18,720 Speaker 1: see where it goes. And when you do that, you've 1202 01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:22,480 Speaker 1: got really good evidence for about four of the apostles 1203 01:22:22,580 --> 01:22:26,540 Speaker 1: being martyred. And then you've got plausible evidence for some 1204 01:22:26,580 --> 01:22:29,280 Speaker 1: of the others. And then there's some that you just, 1205 01:22:29,479 --> 01:22:30,970 Speaker 1: you have to say, we just don't know. 1206 01:22:30,990 --> 01:22:31,670 Speaker 2: That's right. 1207 01:22:32,050 --> 01:22:37,150 Speaker 1: You know, so, but your, your even handed evidential approach 1208 01:22:37,229 --> 01:22:42,349 Speaker 1: to the topic makes your book by far, in my opinion, 1209 01:22:42,450 --> 01:22:45,729 Speaker 1: by far the best book on the subject. And I 1210 01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:48,320 Speaker 1: strongly recommend it to people. And I cited it in 1211 01:22:48,380 --> 01:22:52,559 Speaker 1: my book because it's important that people understand the issue 1212 01:22:52,760 --> 01:22:55,930 Speaker 1: accurately and, It is a mistake for Christians to argue, well, 1213 01:22:55,970 --> 01:22:57,610 Speaker 1: all the apostles died for their faith. 1214 01:22:57,870 --> 01:22:58,290 Speaker 2: That's right. 1215 01:22:58,650 --> 01:23:01,490 Speaker 1: Well, we don't really know that, but we know that 1216 01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:03,660 Speaker 1: some of them did, several of them did, and none 1217 01:23:03,700 --> 01:23:07,640 Speaker 1: of them died for anything wrong they had actually done. 1218 01:23:08,500 --> 01:23:13,560 Speaker 1: Now look, we didn't get into this, but more than 1219 01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:17,840 Speaker 1: half of the 11 witnesses got excommunicated or left the 1220 01:23:17,979 --> 01:23:20,500 Speaker 1: LDS church. Two of them ended up going back, but 1221 01:23:21,300 --> 01:23:25,660 Speaker 1: four of them didn't. Uh, They got into other crazy things. 1222 01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:28,860 Speaker 1: Five of them, maybe four or five, I think it 1223 01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:31,589 Speaker 1: was five, five of them for a year or so 1224 01:23:31,700 --> 01:23:35,670 Speaker 1: were following a man who claimed to be Joseph Smith's successor, 1225 01:23:35,990 --> 01:23:41,170 Speaker 1: James Strang. Strang claimed that he had ancient plates, that 1226 01:23:41,550 --> 01:23:47,670 Speaker 1: he had 11 witnesses supporting their existence too. David Whitmer 1227 01:23:48,130 --> 01:23:53,320 Speaker 1: and Martin Harris were among these witnesses. people that were 1228 01:23:53,380 --> 01:23:58,000 Speaker 1: following Strang, they eventually went their own way, as most 1229 01:23:58,040 --> 01:24:01,019 Speaker 1: people did, because Strang wasn't believable in the long haul. 1230 01:24:01,130 --> 01:24:04,870 Speaker 1: But they fell for Strang's story, and it was very 1231 01:24:04,950 --> 01:24:07,690 Speaker 1: similar to Joseph's story. On purpose, he even had the 1232 01:24:07,710 --> 01:24:13,580 Speaker 1: same number of witnesses. David Whitmer, toward the end of 1233 01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:15,680 Speaker 1: his life, published a little book in which he said, 1234 01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:18,900 Speaker 1: if you believe my testimony that the Book of Mormon 1235 01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:22,110 Speaker 1: is true, then you should also believe my testimony that 1236 01:24:22,189 --> 01:24:24,560 Speaker 1: God told me in the same voice that told me 1237 01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:28,020 Speaker 1: that the book of Mormon was true, that Joseph Smith 1238 01:24:28,040 --> 01:24:30,180 Speaker 1: was a fallen prophet and that I should leave the 1239 01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:34,200 Speaker 1: LDS church. What do you do with that if you're 1240 01:24:34,220 --> 01:24:36,880 Speaker 1: being honest and you're trying to assess all the evidence? 1241 01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:41,290 Speaker 1: I think it's very powerful. So the apostles' death as martyrs, 1242 01:24:41,590 --> 01:24:47,020 Speaker 1: as people of genuine character, uh, All the apostles remained 1243 01:24:47,060 --> 01:24:49,320 Speaker 1: faithful to the end of their lives after they had 1244 01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:52,600 Speaker 1: seen the risen Christ. The only one that never saw 1245 01:24:52,620 --> 01:24:56,360 Speaker 1: the risen Christ, that was Judas Iscariot. All the apostles 1246 01:24:57,220 --> 01:25:01,630 Speaker 1: who saw the risen Christ remained faithful. They lived exemplary lives. 1247 01:25:02,350 --> 01:25:05,170 Speaker 1: Several of them died for their faith. That is a 1248 01:25:05,290 --> 01:25:08,250 Speaker 1: dramatically different story than what we have with the 11 1249 01:25:08,250 --> 01:25:09,610 Speaker 1: witnesses to the Book of Mormon. 1250 01:25:10,189 --> 01:25:12,370 Speaker 2: Robert, I love it. I'm so glad that I asked 1251 01:25:12,590 --> 01:25:15,950 Speaker 2: you that. In my first edition, 2015, I didn't talk 1252 01:25:15,990 --> 01:25:18,870 Speaker 2: about this, but the topic came up so many times 1253 01:25:18,950 --> 01:25:21,230 Speaker 2: in the 10 years before my update. People were like, 1254 01:25:21,250 --> 01:25:23,410 Speaker 2: what about Joseph Smith? So I did a deep dive, 1255 01:25:23,430 --> 01:25:25,990 Speaker 2: and in the back of the second edition, gave a 1256 01:25:26,030 --> 01:25:28,510 Speaker 2: response to whether or not Joseph Smith is a martyr, 1257 01:25:29,030 --> 01:25:31,190 Speaker 2: very much in line with what you said. But that's 1258 01:25:31,370 --> 01:25:33,290 Speaker 2: a topic for another day. If people want to pick 1259 01:25:33,350 --> 01:25:35,099 Speaker 2: up that book, great. But right now, what I want 1260 01:25:35,110 --> 01:25:40,290 Speaker 2: them to get is your book, Jesus' Resurrection and Joseph's Vision. Jesus' 1261 01:25:40,350 --> 01:25:47,620 Speaker 2: resurrection and Joseph's vision. Very fair, very interesting, wonderful contribution. Rob, 1262 01:25:47,660 --> 01:25:49,280 Speaker 2: we will do this again. And by the way, if 1263 01:25:49,360 --> 01:25:53,640 Speaker 2: people respond here, maybe we'll have you back on, maybe 1264 01:25:53,660 --> 01:25:56,120 Speaker 2: Bill McKeever, maybe some others to respond. I've had people 1265 01:25:56,150 --> 01:26:00,450 Speaker 2: in the past snarky, personal attacks on videos like this. 1266 01:26:00,689 --> 01:26:02,550 Speaker 2: I will ignore you if you do that. And I'm 1267 01:26:02,590 --> 01:26:05,450 Speaker 2: not even saying most LDS would do that. The vast 1268 01:26:05,530 --> 01:26:08,710 Speaker 2: majority would not. But if there's a response where people 1269 01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:12,439 Speaker 2: push back, We would welcome that historical analysis. One of 1270 01:26:12,460 --> 01:26:15,740 Speaker 2: the things I like about this is it takes the 1271 01:26:15,780 --> 01:26:18,660 Speaker 2: Bible and it takes the Book of Mormon into the 1272 01:26:18,720 --> 01:26:22,570 Speaker 2: question of history. How does history weigh in on the 1273 01:26:22,670 --> 01:26:26,630 Speaker 2: truth or falsity of these claims? And that's a conversation 1274 01:26:26,990 --> 01:26:28,570 Speaker 2: that I would love to have, and I know you 1275 01:26:28,610 --> 01:26:32,469 Speaker 2: would as well. Rob, this is super fun. Yeah, go ahead. 1276 01:26:32,950 --> 01:26:34,950 Speaker 1: Let me just invite people, if they want to learn 1277 01:26:34,979 --> 01:26:41,400 Speaker 1: more about the book, go to my website, robertbowman.com. Robert Bowman, 1278 01:26:41,540 --> 01:26:47,330 Speaker 1: B-O-W-M-A-N dot N-E-T. And they have that website has information 1279 01:26:47,770 --> 01:26:51,930 Speaker 1: on this and all my other books, free samples, excerpts 1280 01:26:51,970 --> 01:26:55,380 Speaker 1: from the books, you know, all that kind of information 1281 01:26:55,660 --> 01:26:58,800 Speaker 1: and where you can buy them if you're interested. So 1282 01:26:59,000 --> 01:27:00,139 Speaker 1: Robert Bowman dot net. 1283 01:27:00,600 --> 01:27:03,740 Speaker 2: Awesome. It's a great book. I believe I endorsed it. 1284 01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:05,660 Speaker 2: It's been five or six years. I don't remember. 1285 01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:06,140 Speaker 1: Yes. 1286 01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:08,320 Speaker 2: Now that I think, I think I did. It's been 1287 01:27:08,340 --> 01:27:11,059 Speaker 2: a little while and happy to plug it here. Rob, 1288 01:27:11,080 --> 01:27:13,760 Speaker 2: thanks for your research on this. Thanks for your even handedness. 1289 01:27:13,840 --> 01:27:16,550 Speaker 2: Thanks for your obvious love for not only history and 1290 01:27:16,570 --> 01:27:20,090 Speaker 2: the scriptures, but LDS people in the truth, just a 1291 01:27:20,150 --> 01:27:22,830 Speaker 2: wonderful model, how to do this. And we'll definitely have 1292 01:27:22,850 --> 01:27:25,950 Speaker 2: you back. Thanks, my friend. Hey friends, if you enjoyed 1293 01:27:25,990 --> 01:27:29,530 Speaker 2: this show, please hit that follow button on your podcast app. 1294 01:27:29,689 --> 01:27:32,070 Speaker 2: Most of you tuning in haven't done this yet, and 1295 01:27:32,090 --> 01:27:34,680 Speaker 2: it makes a huge difference in helping us reach and 1296 01:27:34,740 --> 01:27:38,059 Speaker 2: equip more people and build community. And please consider leaving 1297 01:27:38,140 --> 01:27:42,320 Speaker 2: a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for listening to 1298 01:27:42,340 --> 01:27:45,200 Speaker 2: The Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by Talbot School 1299 01:27:45,229 --> 01:27:48,810 Speaker 2: of Theology at Biola University, where we have on-campus and 1300 01:27:49,030 --> 01:27:53,070 Speaker 2: online programs in apologetics, spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible, 1301 01:27:53,170 --> 01:27:55,379 Speaker 2: and so much more. We would love to train you 1302 01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:59,290 Speaker 2: to more effectively live, teach, and defend the Christian faith today. 1303 01:27:59,510 --> 01:28:01,890 Speaker 2: And we will see you when the next episode drops.