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Speaker 1: I call later to check on him and the nurse says, well,

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Speaker 1: he's not here. I'm like, what do you mean he's

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Speaker 1: not there? She said, no, he's gone. Nobody knows where

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Speaker 1: he is. And about 15 minutes later, I get a

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Speaker 1: asked me to come pick him up, tells me that

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Speaker 1: he's next to a cornfield. And this is October. And

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, you know, at this rate, he's going to

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Speaker 1: pass out. Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 2: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel, and I

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Speaker 2: am the Christian who became an alcoholic. not the other

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Speaker 2: way around. Here, we get radically vulnerable about addiction, recovery,

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Speaker 2: messy sanctification, and all the things we turn to instead

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Speaker 2: of Jesus because we're all addicted to something. You'll hear raw,

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Speaker 2: honest conversations from those who have struggled, those who help

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Speaker 2: those who struggle, and why aiming for Jesus and getting

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Speaker 2: sobriety thrown in is actually the best goal. So, let's

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Speaker 2: get right into this week's episode. So if you listened

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Speaker 2: to the previous episode, you would have heard that this

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Speaker 2: is a first. This is a part two interview. Now,

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Speaker 2: we've had a repeat guest, but never have we broken

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Speaker 2: up an interview into two parts. And part of the

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Speaker 2: reason that I decided to do it this way is

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Speaker 2: because this interview is crucial. So this week, we are revisiting,

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Speaker 2: or I should say, continuing our conversation with Brenda Fan-Katula,

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Speaker 2: who is a medical doctor. but also the wife of

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Speaker 2: someone who, as she essentially says, drank himself to death.

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Speaker 2: And part one, we covered a lot of kind of

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Speaker 2: the early story, how it got to that point, if

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Speaker 2: you will, and then we ended by her talking a

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Speaker 2: little bit about how her church did try to help.

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Speaker 2: And this week, we're going to cover in a sense, the, the,

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Speaker 2: the buildup to the end. And so we're, we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about, um, her staging and intervention. This is

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Speaker 2: a very interesting topic and I think it's a good

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Speaker 2: topic and I'm glad we're going to start right off

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Speaker 2: with that because there's a lot of people that asked

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Speaker 2: me about that. And in the end, my advice is,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if an intervention is what your spouse

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Speaker 2: or loved one needs. Um, Perhaps it is. Perhaps they

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Speaker 2: need a version of it. Perhaps they need several tough conversations.

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Speaker 2: And I can say it's the hardest question I get.

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Speaker 2: The second hardest is the more universal from someone who's

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Speaker 2: struggling is why can't I stop doing this? And you

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Speaker 2: may say, well, John, like that's what you do. What

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Speaker 2: are you talking about? And it's like, yeah, because while

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Speaker 2: the answer– in one sense is obvious, it is not easy.

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Speaker 2: And so I talk about shoot for Jesus, get sobriety

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Speaker 2: thrown in that you can sum up what I talk

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Speaker 2: about in that one sentence. I don't pretend that's easy. Right.

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Speaker 2: And I think historically that's where maybe the church and Christians, um,

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Speaker 2: tend to get it wrong. Uh, there's a saying in AA,

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Speaker 2: if you want to get drunk, go to church. And, um,

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Speaker 2: I think when I initially, uh, heard that, I was offended.

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Speaker 2: And then I had a friend and mentor of mine say, well,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of true. And this is someone who has

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Speaker 2: been instrumental in just guiding me along this journey of

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Speaker 2: gospel-centered recovery. And he said, in the end, the church

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Speaker 2: has not done a great job of providing people with

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Speaker 2: practical handles on what it looks like to shoot for

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Speaker 2: Jesus and get sobriety thrown in. So a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a tangent there. But When I hear from spouses

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Speaker 2: and loved ones who are just at the end of

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Speaker 2: their rope, it's hard. It's hard. And I talked about

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Speaker 2: in the introduction to last episode that that was going

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Speaker 2: to be a section in my book, and I kind

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Speaker 2: of get into that here in part two a little bit,

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Speaker 2: and I just didn't feel comfortable writing it. So we

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Speaker 2: talk about the intervention. We talk about the hallucinations and him.

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Speaker 2: Calling her from a cornfield when he had checked himself

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Speaker 2: out of a hospital without anyone knowing it. And then

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Speaker 2: she talked honestly about her anger with God, which I

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Speaker 2: think is really good. I think we need to bring

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Speaker 2: our anger to God. We need to be honest about

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Speaker 2: our feelings and where we're at. It's called Lament, and

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Speaker 2: it's very biblical. And then we talk about how God

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Speaker 2: met her because he does meet us in our laments.

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Speaker 2: There's also talks about boundaries and responsibility, forgiveness. And I'm

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Speaker 2: just really encouraged by this conversation. So without further ado,

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Speaker 2: part two of my conversation is, about what it is

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Speaker 2: like to love someone with an addiction with Brenda Phan-Katula. Brenda,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining the Confessions of a

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Speaker 2: Christian Alcoholic podcast. This is really, I think it's going

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Speaker 2: to be a really important episode. And you have said

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Speaker 2: you did an intervention, right? And I think that's, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think there are some people, you know, people ask

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Speaker 2: me all the time, what should I do, right? And

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Speaker 2: I think originally in my book, There was going to

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Speaker 2: be a chapter. And I've told this story before, but

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Speaker 2: I was, you know, in my book on faith and

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Speaker 2: mental health, like one of the breakout hits of that

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Speaker 2: book was the chapter on how to help people that

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Speaker 2: are struggling with mental health. And I thought, well, I'll

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Speaker 2: do the same thing in this book. And I just

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Speaker 2: sat down to write it. And I'm like, it's not

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Speaker 2: a one size fits all. And it's not necessarily that

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Speaker 2: mental health is one size fits all. But I think

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Speaker 2: it's it's there's a little bit more universality.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So I'm curious what led you to try that? How

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Speaker 2: did he respond to that?

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Speaker 1: That's a good question. Because I had tried everything else.

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Speaker 1: You know, I felt like I had tried everything else.

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Speaker 1: And this was more towards the end that I tried this.

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Speaker 1: And I thought it's something's got to give. I had

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Speaker 1: called him from work, and I could tell he was

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Speaker 1: slurring his words at the middle of the afternoon. And

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Speaker 1: he said, I'm going to go pick up the kids

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Speaker 1: from daycare. I said, no, no, no, no, no. I

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Speaker 1: got them. I'll get them. And instead, I called his

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Speaker 1: sister and two of his good friends from church. They

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Speaker 1: were my friends, too, but more importantly, they were his

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Speaker 1: good friends.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't so much, you know, I didn't think about

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Speaker 1: it as being a way to point out and make

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Speaker 1: him feel ashamed as much as a way to make

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Speaker 1: sure that he knew you have people who love you

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Speaker 1: and care about you and we want to support you

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Speaker 1: and this is not a good thing for you. And

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Speaker 1: he was super intoxicated when we all showed up and

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Speaker 1: we talked with them and And I think really because

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Speaker 1: those two gentlemen from church were there, he agreed to

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Speaker 1: go in for detox. So, you know, my sister-in-law got

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Speaker 1: the kids and made sure they were okay. And I

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Speaker 1: took him to the hospital. And that was an interesting story.

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Speaker 1: He went in for detox. And overnight, he was there.

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Speaker 1: The next day, I go visit him. He's hallucinating. There's,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're seeing other people in the room. He's

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Speaker 1: making no sense. They have a hospital bed alarm on him,

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Speaker 1: which means if he gets out of bed, it's an

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Speaker 1: alarm so that they know he's moving so that they

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Speaker 1: can make sure he stays in his room. And he's

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Speaker 1: getting sedated with various medicines. And I call later to

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Speaker 1: check on him. And the nurse says, well, he's not here.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what do you mean he's not there? He's

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Speaker 1: in this room. She's like, no, he he left. Yeah. No.

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Speaker 1: I said, you got to go check. Is he in

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Speaker 1: the room or not? So she comes back. She said, no,

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Speaker 1: he's gone. So nobody knows where he is. He had

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Speaker 1: disassembled the bed alarm, eloped from the hospital. And about

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Speaker 1: 15 minutes later, I get a phone call from him

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Speaker 1: and he is confused. And he asked me to come

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Speaker 1: pick him up, tells me that he's next to a cornfield. Now,

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Speaker 1: doesn't narrow it down when you live in Northern Illinois,

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Speaker 1: where you just have a lot of cornfields. Well, I

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Speaker 1: know he's in Iowa at this point. But he says

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Speaker 1: he couldn't identify street names or anything. And so I

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Speaker 1: called the police. Eventually, you know, we all were driving

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Speaker 1: around looking for him. And this is October. And I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know, at this rate, he's going to pass out,

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Speaker 1: probably seize. It's going to be cold tonight. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is not a good scenario or a good setup.

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Speaker 1: And finally found him. And he said he wanted to

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Speaker 1: go to the hospital with the cross. I'm like the

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Speaker 1: hospital at the cross. And there is a hospital near

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Speaker 1: us that has a big white cross. I'm like, oh, yeah, well, fine.

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Speaker 1: If that's where you want to go, we'll go there.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Right. So I take them to that ER. And, you know,

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Speaker 1: these are all people I know because these are there's

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Speaker 1: three community hospitals and all the doctors work at all three.

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Speaker 1: So these are all my colleagues. By this time, they

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Speaker 1: they figured out what's going on. And he ends up

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Speaker 1: in the ER. We have to call a code Armstrong.

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Speaker 1: That's when a person's getting violent and aggressive and they

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Speaker 1: need security to come in and sedate them because his

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Speaker 1: hallucinations were getting so bad. He was, you know, getting

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Speaker 1: paranoid and very difficult. And that's when the ER doctor said,

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Speaker 1: please go home. Just go get some rest. And the

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Speaker 1: next morning he's in the ICU on a vent. And

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Speaker 1: that was a rough time. You know, and I'm still

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Speaker 1: showing up at work, John. Right. I'm still I'm getting

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Speaker 1: the kids daycare on time. I'm showing up to work

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Speaker 1: on time while my husband's at the other hospital because

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Speaker 1: I can't lose my job. I need I need benefits

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Speaker 1: and I'm the only one working. So that was difficult.

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Speaker 1: But that was the intervention. From there, he went to

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Speaker 1: inpatient rehab and refused to stay. We ended up checking out. Um,

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Speaker 1: but I will say, you know, you talk about, I'm

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Speaker 1: not proud of this moment, but I will tell you

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Speaker 1: in all, in all honesty, but you know, as a mom,

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Speaker 1: I've got to make sure my kids are safe. And so, uh,

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Speaker 1: the doctor that was taking care of him in the ICU,

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Speaker 1: I said, I need a note from you that says

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Speaker 1: he can't drive the kids. And she said, I can't,

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Speaker 1: I can't write that note. And I said, would you

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Speaker 1: let him drive your child? No. No. And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: then don't let them drive my children. I mean, and I,

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Speaker 1: I pushed and pushed. I was very aggressive about getting

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Speaker 1: that note. I might even, if I'm honest, say I

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Speaker 1: bullied her to write that note, but I needed that

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Speaker 1: note to give the daycare because daycare had told me

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Speaker 1: without a legal order or a doctor's note, I have

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Speaker 1: to let him take the kids from daycare. So I

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Speaker 1: made sure I got that note from a doctor that

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Speaker 1: said he couldn't drive the kids, which gave me a

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Speaker 1: lot of comfort. I didn't, The means justified the ends

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Speaker 1: in my mind on that one. But if that doctor's listening,

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Speaker 1: I'm very sorry that I pressured you into writing that note,

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Speaker 1: but I still think it was the right thing.

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Speaker 2: To say to my kids. You said a little bit

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Speaker 2: ago that one of the things you wish is that

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Speaker 2: maybe that you would have leaned into your faith a

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Speaker 2: little bit more earlier on. Um, what did, what role,

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Speaker 2: you know, what, what role did your faith play in

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Speaker 2: getting you through this? I know you said, you know,

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Speaker 2: you went through a time in your twenties where you

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Speaker 2: were angry at God. I think there's probably a lot

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Speaker 2: of people are like, you mean you weren't angry at

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Speaker 2: him during this? Um, but so I'm curious what role

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Speaker 2: your faith played in, in getting you through this and why,

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Speaker 2: you know, what it would, what it looked like to

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Speaker 2: lean into that towards the end, like you wish you

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Speaker 2: would have earlier on. We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 1: It's a great question. So, you know, my faith was always,

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Speaker 1: always important. You know, at the Catholic grade school, my mom, I,

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Speaker 1: my mom every night was on her knees praying before

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Speaker 1: she got in bed. You know, I can remember walking

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Speaker 1: past her bedroom and seeing her do that. So I

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Speaker 1: was brought up with a wonderful role model in my

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Speaker 1: mom of what faith means and how you trust in God.

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Speaker 1: And that was how I led my adult life. But

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Speaker 1: when this started to all happen, I was mad at God.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was angry. And I let him know that.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was mad. How could he let that happen? right?

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Speaker 1: How could this destruction be allowed? You know, why was

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Speaker 1: all this suffering? And, you know, it's funny in the

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Speaker 1: ways in which I showed God, because I was intent

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Speaker 1: on showing God that I was mad at him. He

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Speaker 1: needed to know. So I stopped praying. Now, when I

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Speaker 1: say I stopped praying, I still said the Our Father

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Speaker 1: because I was too chicken to completely stop praying. But

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Speaker 1: I didn't say any personalized prayers. You know, I thought

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to teach them. I'm not really going

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Speaker 1: to talk to them. I'll just say the obligatory Our

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Speaker 1: Father every day. There was one day I was so mad.

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Speaker 1: And again, I'm doing everything around the house. I mean, everything.

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Speaker 1: So in order to maximize time with my kids, I'm

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Speaker 1: getting up super early on weekends to get as much

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Speaker 1: of the chores done so that by the time they

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Speaker 1: get up, I'm done with chores and I can just

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Speaker 1: really be with them. And this was one of the

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Speaker 1: times I had him kicked out of the house. And

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Speaker 1: I went up to the barn to clean the chicken

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Speaker 1: coop and I'm in barn boots. I'm in like Nike

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Speaker 1: running shorts. I have an old T-shirt on that now

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Speaker 1: has chicken poop on it. My hair in a ponytail. And, oh,

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Speaker 1: and in the barn boots, I also have like white

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Speaker 1: athletic socks, those neat, like mid-calf size ones, right? So it's,

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Speaker 1: it's quite a fashionable look. And I look at the time,

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Speaker 1: it's time to leave for church. And I'm also very

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Speaker 1: mad at God, mind you. So I put the kids

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Speaker 1: in the car and wearing my chicken coop cleaning outfit,

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Speaker 1: we went to church. And I remember walking in, on

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Speaker 1: the way there, I'm like, this is such a good

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Speaker 1: idea because God is going to see how I'm dressed.

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Speaker 1: He's going to know I'm mad. Like, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: show him because I'm not dressing up for church today.

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Speaker 1: And we always sat in the front row. Someone had

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Speaker 1: told me when the kids were little, if you sit

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Speaker 1: in the front row, your kids behave better because they

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Speaker 1: can see what's going on at church. That's not true.

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Speaker 1: If you sit in the front row and your kids

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Speaker 1: are bad, it's just that's everybody behind you. See how

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Speaker 1: bad your kids are. But anyhow, we're sitting in the

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Speaker 1: front row of church. And that's when I started to realize,

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Speaker 1: maybe this wasn't such a good idea. And my mom

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Speaker 1: was so embarrassed for the both of us. She was

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Speaker 1: so mad. She's like, how could you dress like this

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Speaker 1: at church? But the anger with God got really to

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Speaker 1: a point. And if God wasn't going to fix this

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Speaker 1: problem for me, in the way that I thought he should,

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Speaker 1: then I was just going to solve it myself. And

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Speaker 1: I just worked harder and just kept, and basically I

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Speaker 1: worked myself into exhaustion, right? I didn't want to stop

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Speaker 1: doing all the things I was doing. Oh, I was

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Speaker 1: getting my master's and MBA at the time too. I

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Speaker 1: got an hour and a half commute. I'm managing the

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Speaker 1: whole house. I've got the two kids. I'm working more

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Speaker 1: than full-time hours. I'm on call. And, um, I'm losing weight.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm scrawny to start. And at this point now,

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Speaker 1: I'm underweight. I'm not eating well. I'm sleeping horribly. And

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Speaker 1: I am completely exhausted. I mean, I'm on call, too.

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Speaker 1: So I'm getting woke up in the night. I'm exhausted.

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Speaker 1: And I was scared at night, too. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know why, but I had a hard time sleeping.

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Speaker 1: I was just scared someone was going to break in,

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Speaker 1: hurt me or hurt the kids. And there's one night

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Speaker 1: I'm laying there and it's like three in the morning

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Speaker 1: and I'm trying to pull my night shift of keeping

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Speaker 1: the family safe, you know, to guard the house. And

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Speaker 1: I just remember thinking to myself, God, I can't stay

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Speaker 1: awake and do this night guarding anymore. I am exhausted.

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Speaker 1: And that song, God of Angel Armies is always on

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Speaker 1: my side. And I'm like, You have these angel armies.

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Speaker 1: You got to take this next shift so I can

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Speaker 1: get some sleep. You just have to watch over us.

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Speaker 1: And I think that was a real turning point for

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Speaker 1: me because I realized it was at that point that

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Speaker 1: I stopped relying on myself and turned to him and realized,

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Speaker 1: I just got to turn this all over to you.

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Speaker 1: And there was such a relief. I slept great for

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Speaker 1: like three hours until the alarm went off at six.

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Speaker 1: But that really, that was a big point. And, you know,

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Speaker 1: the other, the other challenge I had was, you know, I,

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Speaker 1: I read the Bible and I was teaching Bible studies too,

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Speaker 1: but I was struggling with a lot of things like,

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Speaker 1: how do I forgive without implying that this is okay? No,

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Speaker 1: how do I follow the golden rule when I'm kicking

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Speaker 1: him out of the house? Some of these things were

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Speaker 1: difficult for me to, to reconcile as a Christian. And,

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Speaker 1: I literally hung my hat on 1 John 5, verses

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Speaker 1: 14 through 15, and I'm going to read those to you.

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Speaker 1: And this is what it says. This is the confidence

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Speaker 1: we have in approaching God, that if we ask anything

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Speaker 1: according to His will, He hears us. And if we

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Speaker 1: know He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that

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Speaker 1: we have what we asked of Him. So to me,

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Speaker 1: that was very clear. I can confidently approach God. I

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Speaker 1: can ask for my family to be restored, for my

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Speaker 1: husband to be healed. He will hear me, and I

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Speaker 1: will get this, because whatever I ask, He's going to

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Speaker 1: give to me. And I was praying that constantly, and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't coming to fruition. I was getting mad. Again,

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Speaker 1: anger was a predominant thing. I just didn't understand how

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Speaker 1: that could not be God's will. How could not having

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Speaker 1: a loving marriage and a good family not be His will?

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Speaker 1: My kids are not learning what a good marriage looks like.

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Speaker 1: I am not always acting like a Christian. I am swearing.

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Speaker 1: I am arguing. I am letting the sun go down

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Speaker 1: on my anger. I'm letting the sun come up on

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Speaker 1: my anger. It was just a bad situation. And I

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Speaker 1: went to talk with my pastor about it. I demanded

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Speaker 1: an answer as to why this verse wasn't working. And

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Speaker 1: my pastor said, well, Brenda, that's not exactly what it means.

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Speaker 1: And I argued with him. I said, you're wrong. It's

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Speaker 1: exactly what that verse says. And here I am, not

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Speaker 1: in my master's in biblical and theological studies at the time.

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Speaker 1: I'm just your average layperson Bible reader. And here's my

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Speaker 1: pastor with a degree in divinity. And I'm telling him,

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Speaker 1: he's understanding this verse completely wrong. My understanding is correct.

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Speaker 1: And it took me a long time to realize my

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Speaker 1: pastor was right. And it took me a while to

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Speaker 1: realize God's purpose and plan in this. I couldn't see

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Speaker 1: it at the time. I couldn't see it at all.

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Speaker 1: It was impossible to see. And even if I had

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Speaker 1: known what that plan was, I'm sure I would have

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Speaker 1: told him I didn't like that plan. I wanted a

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Speaker 1: different one. But, you know, he works things for the

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Speaker 1: good of us according to his purpose. And the suffering,

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Speaker 1: you know, produces perseverance. You know, James says, Chapter 1

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Speaker 1: talks about that. You know, consider it pure joy, my

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Speaker 1: brothers and sisters, when you face trials of many kinds.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't say if you face trials. He says when

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Speaker 1: you face trials. And those trials produce perseverance. And that

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Speaker 1: ultimately leads to this deeper faith and trust in God.

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Speaker 1: And I developed that after that God of Angel Armies

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Speaker 1: night when God took the night shift to guard over us.

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Speaker 1: my faith started to change and become refined and stronger

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Speaker 1: and deeper. And even though I didn't know the outcome,

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Speaker 1: I was able to trust in Him more to know

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Speaker 1: that eventually things were going to work out. And I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what that looked like at the time. But

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Speaker 1: they did work out, and not in a way I

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Speaker 1: would have planned. I think it's a difficult thing to say,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think my husband's disease was curable. I

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Speaker 1: don't think he was able to go through being uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: long enough to solve the root cause of his drinking.

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Speaker 1: I think he just had too much trauma piled on

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Speaker 1: and on and on for so long. I think those

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Speaker 1: wounds were so deep. But I think now, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've remarried. I have an amazing, I'm just so grateful.

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Speaker 1: I have an amazing husband now who's very supportive. And

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Speaker 1: I'm so pleased that I can show my children what

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Speaker 1: a real marriage and relationship is supposed to look like

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Speaker 1: I always felt like a failure that I couldn't show

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Speaker 1: them that. But, you know, the other thing that happened

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Speaker 1: after he passed, one of our friends from church said

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Speaker 1: that I should write a Bible study about this. And

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Speaker 1: I told him he was nuts. There was no way

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Speaker 1: I was doing it. But, you know, ultimately, I've realized

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Speaker 1: God gets his way. We can resist, but, you know,

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Speaker 1: I can try to go to the other way like

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Speaker 1: Jonah did, but God's going to get me right back

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Speaker 1: to where he wants me. And So a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago, I started to write parts of this. And,

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Speaker 1: you know, I led the Bible study at my church

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Speaker 1: and I've led some workshops. And it's all about how

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Speaker 1: you strengthen your faith when your loved one has an

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Speaker 1: addiction and how you wrestle with those Christian challenges. And

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Speaker 1: the response to it has been quite impressive. So many

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Speaker 1: people have come and listened. I had a lot of

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Speaker 1: requests to do things virtually because the stigma is so great.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people say, I would love to go,

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Speaker 1: but I'm just not going to. I don't want people

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Speaker 1: to know what I'm dealing with. So I've done some

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Speaker 1: virtual online ones, which have also had tremendous success. But,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think God had a purpose for me

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Speaker 1: and that I would use this to help others and

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Speaker 1: encourage others who are going through it.

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you, I want to go back

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Speaker 2: to something you said, but you're talking about 1 John 5,

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Speaker 2: and your pastor has a different interpretation than what you have.

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Speaker 1: The right one?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think there are a lot of people

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Speaker 2: maybe listening to this who are struggling with a loved

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Speaker 2: one in addiction, and they're saying, well, I'm praying that too.

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Speaker 2: And my question is, what did your pastor say? What

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Speaker 2: have you come to understand about that passage in particular,

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Speaker 2: but just in general about– and your advice, I guess,

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Speaker 2: also to people who are like, I'm praying, I'm praying,

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Speaker 2: I'm praying, and I'm still going through this. God has

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Speaker 2: not delivered me. God has not delivered them. What's going on?

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Speaker 2: So what did your pastor say, and then what is

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Speaker 2: your advice to people who find themselves in a similar situation?

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Speaker 1: Well, I'll be honest. I didn't really hear much of

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Speaker 1: what my pastor said. Because once he told me that

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Speaker 1: I didn't understand the verse correctly, and that's not what

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Speaker 1: it means, I pretty much shut out the rest of it.

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Speaker 1: Because I was absolutely convinced I knew what it said.

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Speaker 1: So what I would say to people who are praying

426
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,350
Speaker 1: this and feeling that same way I did, you know,

427
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,710
Speaker 1: in my master's program for my New Testament theology class,

428
00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:34,189
Speaker 1: our final paper was about taking two verses that seemed

429
00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: to contradict each other in the Bible and reconcile that

430
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,440
Speaker 1: contradiction and that tension. And this was my topic of

431
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:49,380
Speaker 1: my paper was the role of petitionary prayer. And, you know,

432
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,649
Speaker 1: where it says, ask me for anything in my name

433
00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:56,530
Speaker 1: and you'll get it. And You know, in summary, you know,

434
00:26:56,710 --> 00:27:04,490
Speaker 1: God's not a genie. You know, he's not, you know,

435
00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:07,820
Speaker 1: a dispenser where we just say what we want and

436
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: he's going to give it to us. No, that's not his.

437
00:27:11,660 --> 00:27:15,710
Speaker 1: His role is divine. Well, I don't, I mean, I'm

438
00:27:15,730 --> 00:27:17,210
Speaker 1: not going to assume to say I know what God's

439
00:27:17,270 --> 00:27:20,370
Speaker 1: role is, but based on biblical principles, you know, it's

440
00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: not his job necessarily to make us happy and give

441
00:27:23,580 --> 00:27:28,540
Speaker 1: us everything we want. He's going to give us good gifts, right?

442
00:27:28,580 --> 00:27:30,740
Speaker 1: That's what the Bible says. You know, he's going to

443
00:27:30,780 --> 00:27:34,699
Speaker 1: give us good gifts. We may want this. Okay. I

444
00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:38,609
Speaker 1: want chocolate before dinner and ice cream too. That's not

445
00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:42,139
Speaker 1: a good thing for me. And again, You know, he

446
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,100
Speaker 1: has higher purposes, higher plans. He understands more of what's

447
00:27:46,140 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: going on. And even though we don't see it at

448
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: the time, he's giving us good things we need. When

449
00:27:52,980 --> 00:27:59,460
Speaker 1: we pray, praying that petitionary prayer, we're supposed to ask

450
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: God for what we want. And the more we ask

451
00:28:05,260 --> 00:28:08,619
Speaker 1: through that, we also have to discern what his will is.

452
00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:12,700
Speaker 1: And I think that's the tricky part is discerning what

453
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: his will is for us and how he's going to

454
00:28:17,540 --> 00:28:22,669
Speaker 1: answer that prayer. And there's, you know, Jesus in the

455
00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:28,310
Speaker 1: Garden of Gethsemane on Good Friday prayed three times, you know, God,

456
00:28:28,990 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: if it's your will, take this cup from me. God,

457
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,699
Speaker 1: if this is your will, take this cup from me.

458
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:39,220
Speaker 1: And So he prayed a petitionary prayer. He told God

459
00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:42,870
Speaker 1: what he wanted. And then he also said, you know,

460
00:28:43,330 --> 00:28:46,570
Speaker 1: if it's possible, if this is your will. And I

461
00:28:46,630 --> 00:28:52,730
Speaker 1: think recognizing that, that Jesus also did that, is really

462
00:28:52,790 --> 00:28:58,810
Speaker 1: important because we have to go through suffering. James chapter

463
00:28:58,810 --> 00:29:01,490
Speaker 1: 1 says we are going to go through trials and

464
00:29:01,510 --> 00:29:05,890
Speaker 1: sufferings of many kinds. And the point of that is,

465
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,860
Speaker 1: is to strengthen your faith and I think to become

466
00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:16,740
Speaker 1: closer to God. And I know that's not a comforting answer, right?

467
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,330
Speaker 1: When I was going through this, this is what my

468
00:29:18,380 --> 00:29:20,770
Speaker 1: pastor is trying to tell me and I'm shutting it

469
00:29:20,810 --> 00:29:24,190
Speaker 1: down because it's not what I want to hear. It's

470
00:29:24,250 --> 00:29:26,650
Speaker 1: not what I want to hear at all. You know,

471
00:29:29,150 --> 00:29:31,370
Speaker 1: when you're going through the suffering like that, and I

472
00:29:31,410 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: will say it's very easy for me to look back

473
00:29:34,620 --> 00:29:38,700
Speaker 1: on this and recognize this. In the midst of it,

474
00:29:38,790 --> 00:29:47,020
Speaker 1: I recognize some of it. But, you know, I'm a Christian,

475
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,470
Speaker 1: and we're supposed to, because of our faith and because

476
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:55,050
Speaker 1: of the transformation that Jesus made in our lives, our

477
00:29:55,130 --> 00:29:59,450
Speaker 1: lives should reflect that. our actions should show that we

478
00:29:59,510 --> 00:30:03,970
Speaker 1: are Christians. My actions during this time and my Christian

479
00:30:04,020 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: behavior was not visible. Like I said, I was swearing,

480
00:30:08,020 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: I was arguing, I wasn't acting in the right way.

481
00:30:15,860 --> 00:30:20,190
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? And I think if you looked

482
00:30:20,730 --> 00:30:24,260
Speaker 1: at my actions, you would have questioned, is she really

483
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,530
Speaker 1: a Christian? Does she really even believe in Jesus? Because

484
00:30:26,590 --> 00:30:31,790
Speaker 1: I wasn't reflecting that. Again, the anger came out, but

485
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:35,380
Speaker 1: I think I wish I had prayed more for things

486
00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:40,430
Speaker 1: that had to do helping me manage it, you know,

487
00:30:40,450 --> 00:30:44,719
Speaker 1: give me the strength, give me the perseverance, give me

488
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: the comfort so that I can, I don't want to

489
00:30:48,540 --> 00:30:52,140
Speaker 1: say manage, like managing or controlling the situation, but so

490
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,690
Speaker 1: that I can deal with it, so I can handle it,

491
00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:59,180
Speaker 1: so I can handle it better for me and my children.

492
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: And I think my prayer focused so much externally on

493
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,660
Speaker 1: healing him and rather than recognizing I needed healing and

494
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,980
Speaker 1: I needed tools and strategies to deal with this. And

495
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,130
Speaker 1: I wasn't looking at what I was doing wrong. You know,

496
00:31:17,170 --> 00:31:20,990
Speaker 1: it's the whole, the plank and the speck, right? It

497
00:31:21,070 --> 00:31:23,490
Speaker 1: was very easy for me to see the speck in

498
00:31:23,530 --> 00:31:26,590
Speaker 1: his eye and, you know, ignore the plank in mine.

499
00:31:27,750 --> 00:31:30,750
Speaker 1: And one of the, you know, another turning point for

500
00:31:30,790 --> 00:31:34,380
Speaker 1: me related to this is I was You know, I

501
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,050
Speaker 1: read a sign that said, don't judge others just because

502
00:31:37,090 --> 00:31:42,090
Speaker 1: they sin differently than you. Don't judge others just because

503
00:31:42,130 --> 00:31:45,150
Speaker 1: they sin differently than you. And Jesus is very clear.

504
00:31:45,290 --> 00:31:48,830
Speaker 1: We're not supposed to judge. That's in his job description,

505
00:31:48,910 --> 00:31:52,300
Speaker 1: not ours. But it was very easy for me to

506
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: look at my husband and see him as the sinner,

507
00:31:55,940 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: as the problem, because he has this addiction.

508
00:31:59,380 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: Hmm.

509
00:32:00,670 --> 00:32:04,190
Speaker 1: And, you know, I used to think that was a

510
00:32:04,270 --> 00:32:08,650
Speaker 1: greater sin than the little things I was doing. That's

511
00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: not biblically accurate, right? You know, my sins were just

512
00:32:14,220 --> 00:32:18,020
Speaker 1: as bad. They were different. Sure, I didn't have an

513
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:23,370
Speaker 1: alcohol use disorder, but my faith was being tested and

514
00:32:23,410 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: I was failing in how I was responding. So, I

515
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: think looking back, I wish I had prayed more for

516
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,390
Speaker 1: those things. But for your listeners who are going through this,

517
00:32:33,470 --> 00:32:37,210
Speaker 1: I mean, first I would say I'm horribly sorry that

518
00:32:37,230 --> 00:32:40,830
Speaker 1: they're having to go through this. And, you know, I understand.

519
00:32:41,490 --> 00:32:44,190
Speaker 1: Believe me, I understand. There's a lot of gory, nasty

520
00:32:44,250 --> 00:32:47,580
Speaker 1: details to my story that I don't think are appropriate

521
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,420
Speaker 1: to share. But, you know, it's a challenge. But I

522
00:32:51,460 --> 00:32:54,970
Speaker 1: think relying on your faith Praying for what you want,

523
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:58,070
Speaker 1: but also recognizing to pray for what God can do

524
00:32:58,090 --> 00:33:00,870
Speaker 1: in you and through you and how he can help

525
00:33:00,910 --> 00:33:02,210
Speaker 1: you through this is important.

526
00:33:03,410 --> 00:33:06,490
Speaker 2: How long did it take you to kind of arrive

527
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: at that perspective? Like, you know, how long after, you know,

528
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: your husband passing? You know, is that a month? Is

529
00:33:16,620 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: that a year? Is that 10? I mean, I don't

530
00:33:18,460 --> 00:33:20,709
Speaker 2: even know. We'll be right back after this.

531
00:33:23,890 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: So he died in 2018. And I literally yesterday, I

532
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,020
Speaker 1: just came to this conclusion that I'm going to tell you.

533
00:33:32,660 --> 00:33:35,610
Speaker 1: It was a gradual process. You know, as I led

534
00:33:35,650 --> 00:33:39,230
Speaker 1: the Bible studies and, you know, this I call it

535
00:33:39,290 --> 00:33:43,650
Speaker 1: unshakable or unshaken process. Because it's about building your house

536
00:33:43,810 --> 00:33:47,410
Speaker 1: on that solid rock foundation. And that parable Jesus tells,

537
00:33:47,870 --> 00:33:50,230
Speaker 1: the storms come and that house does not fall down.

538
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:53,850
Speaker 1: Versus building your house on the sand and the storms

539
00:33:53,930 --> 00:33:56,340
Speaker 1: come and that house keeps falling down. I mean, that's

540
00:33:56,380 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: what I did. I kept rebuilding my house on the sand,

541
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: rebuilding my house on the sand. Every storm, every relapse,

542
00:34:03,420 --> 00:34:05,540
Speaker 1: until I learned to build it on that solid rock.

543
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: I think after that God of Angel Armies nights, I

544
00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:13,020
Speaker 1: started to move onto the solid rock and started to

545
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,100
Speaker 1: put up walls on that house. And I think from

546
00:34:17,180 --> 00:34:20,989
Speaker 1: then on, it was a gradual, gradual completing the house

547
00:34:21,070 --> 00:34:26,210
Speaker 1: on that solid rock, so to speak. But literally yesterday,

548
00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:30,970
Speaker 1: this came to me. So he had started a tree

549
00:34:31,030 --> 00:34:33,190
Speaker 1: house for our kids. And I told you he had

550
00:34:33,230 --> 00:34:35,529
Speaker 1: built an addition for our house. We'd all left over

551
00:34:35,570 --> 00:34:37,739
Speaker 1: building material and he said, I want to build this

552
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,030
Speaker 1: tree house. And it was half built when he died.

553
00:34:41,650 --> 00:34:45,410
Speaker 1: And it has real siding, real windows, our old garage

554
00:34:45,469 --> 00:34:49,819
Speaker 1: service door. It's got a deck. I mean, it's nice.

555
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: It's big enough that I actually have a reclining chair

556
00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:56,420
Speaker 1: in there, a dining room table, and a couple bookshelves

557
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 1: with space. I mean, it's a decent size. but when

558
00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: he died and that tree house was sitting there unfinished,

559
00:35:03,460 --> 00:35:08,700
Speaker 1: it was so symbolic of the unfulfilled promises that he

560
00:35:08,739 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: made to me, the unfinished projects, the just, we never

561
00:35:13,469 --> 00:35:17,650
Speaker 1: built that house together of family. You know, to me,

562
00:35:17,690 --> 00:35:20,310
Speaker 1: that tree house was like this symbolic thing out in

563
00:35:20,330 --> 00:35:23,290
Speaker 1: the yard. And I literally wanted to go out there

564
00:35:23,310 --> 00:35:26,290
Speaker 1: with the chainsaw and just chainsaw it down. I was, I,

565
00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:31,930
Speaker 1: it just angered me to look at it. Um, Then

566
00:35:31,950 --> 00:35:38,989
Speaker 1: the treehouse turned into exemplifying the kindness from my church

567
00:35:39,010 --> 00:35:43,259
Speaker 1: and people we knew who came to work and finished

568
00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:46,420
Speaker 1: that treehouse for the kids. I mean, these men just

569
00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:50,140
Speaker 1: descended on our property for a couple weekends, and they

570
00:35:50,219 --> 00:35:52,580
Speaker 1: finished it all, and they built this beautiful stairs, and

571
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,739
Speaker 1: they made this gorgeous deck, and it was lovely. So

572
00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:00,070
Speaker 1: then it became this symbolic thing. the symbolism of people's

573
00:36:00,130 --> 00:36:05,250
Speaker 1: kindness and community support around our suffering. I still didn't

574
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:08,390
Speaker 1: like it too much. You know, there was still sort

575
00:36:08,410 --> 00:36:10,660
Speaker 1: of that, I was angry that they even had to

576
00:36:10,739 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: finish it for him, right? Now the kids grow up

577
00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: and they're not really using it. And I need a

578
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: place to study for my master's in biblical and theological studies.

579
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,450
Speaker 1: I want a quiet place where I can um, write my,

580
00:36:24,860 --> 00:36:28,260
Speaker 1: my book, write my Bible studies, prepare for the talks

581
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,660
Speaker 1: I'm giving on this. And I looked at the trance

582
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, that's great. So I moved my

583
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,940
Speaker 1: old favorite dining room table out there, pulled all the

584
00:36:36,980 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: kids stuff out. I have decorations on the wall. Um,

585
00:36:41,620 --> 00:36:44,460
Speaker 1: it's not air conditioned. Um, so the summers are a

586
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,900
Speaker 1: little tricky when it's humid, but it's absolutely beautiful. I'm

587
00:36:47,940 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: up there in the trees and I have the birds

588
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: singing around me and, um, I sit in there with

589
00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: the breeze coming through and working on my biblical studies.

590
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,580
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, this now has become a

591
00:37:01,780 --> 00:37:06,140
Speaker 1: symbolism of how God has used this for his good, right?

592
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: Because the work I'm doing up there, I'm using to

593
00:37:10,340 --> 00:37:13,890
Speaker 1: help others who are struggling like I did. And so,

594
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:19,210
Speaker 1: and just yesterday, that whole transition of the tree house,

595
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,739
Speaker 1: All of a sudden it solidified my mind. I looked

596
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: out there and I'm like, wow. It went from this

597
00:37:26,100 --> 00:37:29,770
Speaker 1: bad thing to God actually turning that treehouse into something

598
00:37:29,850 --> 00:37:34,150
Speaker 1: good that he's using for his purpose. And it's really beautiful.

599
00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:37,969
Speaker 2: As we start to wrap up here, there's one thing

600
00:37:38,010 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 2: you said earlier that I just want to press into

601
00:37:40,780 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: a little bit and get your thoughts on. And that

602
00:37:43,260 --> 00:37:52,890
Speaker 2: is this. How do you simultaneously recognize, you know, you

603
00:37:52,930 --> 00:37:55,989
Speaker 2: had talked very early on in the interview that your

604
00:37:56,010 --> 00:37:58,930
Speaker 2: husband was trying to, you know, blame you, hey, this

605
00:37:58,989 --> 00:38:01,629
Speaker 2: is your fault, or if you would do this, or,

606
00:38:01,850 --> 00:38:07,989
Speaker 2: you know, the gaslighting and whatnot. How do you simultaneously

607
00:38:08,410 --> 00:38:12,580
Speaker 2: recognize that's a lie, right? Obviously, this is manipulation. Well,

608
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: also now having what I think is obviously a biblical and,

609
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,859
Speaker 2: and wise perspective to say, but yet there's still things

610
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 2: I could have done differently, right? There's still things that

611
00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:25,580
Speaker 2: I needed to work on. There's still things, you know,

612
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 2: the log and the plank that you're talking about. How,

613
00:38:29,180 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: you know, maybe someone's listening to this and they're like, well, yeah,

614
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,210
Speaker 2: he's gaslighting me. He's manipulating me. And now you're telling

615
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:39,470
Speaker 2: me that I have to accept responsibility and there's things

616
00:38:39,910 --> 00:38:42,569
Speaker 2: that maybe I could do better. What are you talking about, right? Like,

617
00:38:42,630 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 2: how do you reconcile and hold both of those things together?

618
00:38:49,930 --> 00:38:54,130
Speaker 1: That's a good question. And, you know, again, I want

619
00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:58,089
Speaker 1: to emphasize, I didn't handle it all perfectly. There were

620
00:38:58,110 --> 00:39:00,540
Speaker 1: things I did well. There were things I did horribly.

621
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: I learned a lot from that experience. I think, you know,

622
00:39:08,980 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: there's two ways to look at this. And I heard

623
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,299
Speaker 1: a pastor talk about it once. You know, the shape

624
00:39:14,340 --> 00:39:17,860
Speaker 1: of the cross. We have the vertical part, which... you

625
00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: can see symbolically as our relationship with God. And then

626
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,570
Speaker 1: you have the horizontal part, which is our relationship with others.

627
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:32,150
Speaker 1: You know, that relationship, with my husband was impossible to save.

628
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:38,959
Speaker 1: It just was too dysfunctional, and the addiction just drove

629
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,060
Speaker 1: a wedge in there. It was never going to be saved.

630
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:48,649
Speaker 1: But I still had an accountability to my vertical relationship

631
00:39:48,690 --> 00:39:55,090
Speaker 1: to God. Right. So, you know, I once had heard

632
00:39:57,270 --> 00:40:03,820
Speaker 1: someone say there were two people together and a third

633
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: person came around and one of the two people treated

634
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:12,540
Speaker 1: that third person not so nicely. And and the group.

635
00:40:13,910 --> 00:40:17,089
Speaker 1: the older gentleman said to the younger man, don't let

636
00:40:17,410 --> 00:40:21,350
Speaker 1: anybody ever make you be less of a person than

637
00:40:21,390 --> 00:40:24,720
Speaker 1: you are. And I don't know if that story makes

638
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,979
Speaker 1: sense to you, but it struck me that no matter

639
00:40:28,060 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: what someone's doing over there, I still have a responsibility

640
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:36,870
Speaker 1: to not become less than who I am. And Yes,

641
00:40:36,930 --> 00:40:40,030
Speaker 1: there's gaslighting. Yes, I'm being told I don't work. Yes,

642
00:40:40,110 --> 00:40:43,540
Speaker 1: I'm being criticized, made fun of, and all these things

643
00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: that addiction makes someone do. I know those things aren't true.

644
00:40:49,060 --> 00:40:52,420
Speaker 1: I know I am a loved, valuable child of God.

645
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,550
Speaker 1: I have an identity in that that is solid and secure,

646
00:40:56,590 --> 00:40:59,989
Speaker 1: and nothing, nothing can take that away from me, ever.

647
00:41:01,390 --> 00:41:04,010
Speaker 1: And I have a responsibility to that relationship to honor

648
00:41:04,070 --> 00:41:09,620
Speaker 1: my God in what I say and do, and Yes,

649
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:16,110
Speaker 1: we want to react. It's certainly easier to react and

650
00:41:16,170 --> 00:41:19,350
Speaker 1: to be nasty back and to want revenge and want

651
00:41:19,430 --> 00:41:23,530
Speaker 1: vengeance and all of that. But that's, again, not our job.

652
00:41:23,550 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: God's role is judge. And, you know, he says the

653
00:41:27,540 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: vengeance is his and we're not supposed to do that.

654
00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:36,259
Speaker 1: And so that's how I reconciled that. You know, my

655
00:41:37,300 --> 00:41:40,570
Speaker 1: son's in second grade. And he's like, I'm tired of

656
00:41:40,610 --> 00:41:43,490
Speaker 1: you guys swearing. This is how I had a bad

657
00:41:43,590 --> 00:41:45,970
Speaker 1: mouth during all of this. And he's like, I'm making

658
00:41:46,010 --> 00:41:47,950
Speaker 1: a swearing jar and you have to put a quarter

659
00:41:47,969 --> 00:41:50,690
Speaker 1: in there every time you guys swear. Believe me, John,

660
00:41:50,710 --> 00:41:53,589
Speaker 1: there were mornings I'd get up and I, poor kid,

661
00:41:53,890 --> 00:41:55,739
Speaker 1: I'd look at him. I'm like, I'm putting two bucks

662
00:41:55,820 --> 00:41:59,420
Speaker 1: in right now. I knew it's going to be a

663
00:41:59,460 --> 00:42:02,900
Speaker 1: bad day. That's, you know, that's just an example of

664
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:08,980
Speaker 1: where I was failing in maintaining my Christian identity, what

665
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 1: I'm responsible to do, which is not swear and control my,

666
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: you know, James says, control your tongue. You know, you

667
00:42:19,340 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: shouldn't be cursing and praising God out of the same mouth.

668
00:42:22,030 --> 00:42:26,890
Speaker 1: And so that's how I would explain that. And it's

669
00:42:27,030 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: not Sometimes it feels like when you forgive again and

670
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,860
Speaker 1: forgive again and forgive again, you almost feel like they're winning.

671
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: Right?

672
00:42:39,180 --> 00:42:45,100
Speaker 1: Yeah. But that's not what's happening. They're not winning. They're

673
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: suffering too in a different way. But if I refuse

674
00:42:48,180 --> 00:42:50,509
Speaker 1: to forgive, I'm the one who's losing out here. I

675
00:42:52,610 --> 00:42:56,650
Speaker 1: really am. Does that answer your question? Yeah.

676
00:42:57,030 --> 00:42:57,370
Speaker 2: Yeah.

677
00:42:57,390 --> 00:43:00,170
Speaker 1: Yeah. I would say there's one more thing I would say,

678
00:43:00,210 --> 00:43:05,810
Speaker 1: which is a really interesting turn in my own brain.

679
00:43:05,890 --> 00:43:10,750
Speaker 1: But as a physician, I have always practiced compassionate medicine.

680
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:14,430
Speaker 1: I've always stuck to the ethics of my profession. And

681
00:43:15,030 --> 00:43:17,629
Speaker 1: during all of this with him, I would still have

682
00:43:17,650 --> 00:43:20,540
Speaker 1: folks in withdrawal in the hospital that I'm taking care of.

683
00:43:20,730 --> 00:43:24,089
Speaker 1: And Mentally, I would have to compartmentalize that for just

684
00:43:24,170 --> 00:43:26,989
Speaker 1: a moment and say, I'd have to pause and say,

685
00:43:27,090 --> 00:43:31,870
Speaker 1: you can't let your own personal biases and issues come

686
00:43:31,910 --> 00:43:33,950
Speaker 1: into how you're taking care of this patient. And I

687
00:43:33,989 --> 00:43:36,180
Speaker 1: would take care of them in the right way as

688
00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: a doctor would. Since he died, my empathy for people

689
00:43:44,140 --> 00:43:49,590
Speaker 1: with addiction has actually increased. I thought it would get worse.

690
00:43:50,270 --> 00:43:54,049
Speaker 1: I thought it would actually decline because of what it

691
00:43:54,110 --> 00:43:59,170
Speaker 1: had done to our family. But I find we're all

692
00:44:00,110 --> 00:44:03,470
Speaker 1: in pain because of this, right? My pain, the source

693
00:44:03,510 --> 00:44:05,190
Speaker 1: of my pain and the reason for it is different.

694
00:44:05,770 --> 00:44:08,890
Speaker 1: The person with the addiction is in pain too. And

695
00:44:09,790 --> 00:44:13,330
Speaker 1: seeing them, learning to see them as also a child

696
00:44:13,370 --> 00:44:17,230
Speaker 1: of God, don't judge others just because they sin differently,

697
00:44:17,250 --> 00:44:23,020
Speaker 1: and And it made some shift in my mind that

698
00:44:23,060 --> 00:44:29,060
Speaker 1: I still can't articulate quite right. But it's actually helped

699
00:44:29,140 --> 00:44:30,500
Speaker 1: me professionally as well.

700
00:44:31,260 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 2: Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, I think

701
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 2: that is it's it's another example of how God takes

702
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,660
Speaker 2: what is meant for evil and uses it for our good.

703
00:44:43,140 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 2: in his glory. You have your medical doctor, you have

704
00:44:52,060 --> 00:44:56,140
Speaker 2: your MBA, you're now getting your master's in biblical and

705
00:44:56,180 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: theological studies. What are you hoping to do with that?

706
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,420
Speaker 2: What does life look like for you, hopefully, in the

707
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 2: future related to that? We'll be right back after this.

708
00:45:10,610 --> 00:45:14,930
Speaker 1: Sure, good question. So when I grow up, What I

709
00:45:14,989 --> 00:45:18,489
Speaker 1: really want to be, and my new goal now is

710
00:45:18,590 --> 00:45:23,990
Speaker 1: to be a Christian speaker and author and write about

711
00:45:24,190 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: this to help, again, those who are struggling like I did,

712
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,580
Speaker 1: and in some ways still do. I don't want to

713
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:35,230
Speaker 1: say I'm all over it. It's still... a struggle when

714
00:45:35,590 --> 00:45:39,009
Speaker 1: something happens with the kids, the anger comes back and

715
00:45:39,030 --> 00:45:43,650
Speaker 1: resurfaces and I have to forgive all over again. It's

716
00:45:43,690 --> 00:45:46,750
Speaker 1: an ongoing process. But, you know, to do that. And

717
00:45:46,790 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 1: then I've always wanted to write Bible studies. And I

718
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: love teaching. I teach at, I've always taught through work.

719
00:45:53,739 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 1: I've taught medical students and residents my whole career. And

720
00:45:57,739 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: I absolutely love teaching. And I've written a bunch of

721
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 1: Bible studies. And I'll give you some examples like spiritual anatomy.

722
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: So each session goes to a different body part. So

723
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,049
Speaker 1: our eyes, you know, Jesus talks about, you know, you

724
00:46:15,070 --> 00:46:17,590
Speaker 1: should see this. And the ears, you know, he who

725
00:46:17,630 --> 00:46:20,350
Speaker 1: has ears, let him hear. We talk about holy heartburn,

726
00:46:21,190 --> 00:46:26,529
Speaker 1: the breath in us. God knelt down and breathed the

727
00:46:26,590 --> 00:46:31,250
Speaker 1: breath of life into us. Faithful feet. So it's kind

728
00:46:31,270 --> 00:46:34,870
Speaker 1: of this sort of spiritual anatomy. We do the angiogram

729
00:46:34,910 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: examining your heart. And so that's fun. I have a

730
00:46:39,180 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: lot of them that are kind of combining medical and

731
00:46:43,219 --> 00:46:46,930
Speaker 1: biblical things like that, some metaphors along those lines. But

732
00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:52,180
Speaker 1: Other ones about faith and forgiveness. And so my goal

733
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:56,540
Speaker 1: is to finish my master's. Hopefully that'll add some more credibility.

734
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:01,950
Speaker 1: And then be a Christian speaker, teacher, author. I'm going

735
00:47:01,969 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: to be world famous traveling around doing these things. These

736
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: Christian talks. Sure.

737
00:47:07,620 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 2: Right.

738
00:47:08,219 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. But no, that's truly my goal is to

739
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,890
Speaker 1: teach others to love God and love the Bible and

740
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:19,070
Speaker 1: build their faith.

741
00:47:19,650 --> 00:47:23,650
Speaker 2: Yeah. If people want to learn more about you and

742
00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:26,930
Speaker 2: what you're doing and maybe see some of that work,

743
00:47:26,969 --> 00:47:27,609
Speaker 2: where can they go?

744
00:47:28,870 --> 00:47:34,700
Speaker 1: Sure. So I'm on Facebook and Instagram. Brenda Fancatula for both.

745
00:47:36,310 --> 00:47:39,569
Speaker 1: I have little video snippets so people can see what

746
00:47:39,630 --> 00:47:41,430
Speaker 1: I look like when I'm up working at the barn.

747
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:47,660
Speaker 1: The roosters crowing in the background. But I'll do little

748
00:47:47,739 --> 00:47:53,140
Speaker 1: brief snippets. I did a longer interview with a colleague

749
00:47:53,180 --> 00:47:56,469
Speaker 1: of mine, an addiction specialist, and we talked through the

750
00:47:56,530 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 1: myths and realities of addiction. That was really well-received. So

751
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: intermittently I'll post things and post things if I'm going

752
00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: to have a virtual online session or an in-person session,

753
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: but that would be the best place for people to

754
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,779
Speaker 1: go right now. I'm not famous enough yet to have

755
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:19,590
Speaker 1: my own website like you do, but someday I'll get there.

756
00:48:21,010 --> 00:48:27,310
Speaker 2: Well, listen, the myth, you talk about myths, right? And

757
00:48:27,330 --> 00:48:29,980
Speaker 2: the myth is that you have to have, you know,

758
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,260
Speaker 2: so many followers and be published in order to help people.

759
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: And I think I'm just inspired by you and your

760
00:48:36,100 --> 00:48:43,710
Speaker 2: faithfulness to help people and to create and to talk

761
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:47,589
Speaker 2: with people and to lead Bible studies and point people

762
00:48:47,610 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: to Jesus, not just despite, but through this suffering and

763
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 2: through your story. And so, Brenda, I want to thank

764
00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 2: you for seeking me out for telling your story, for

765
00:48:58,780 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: being so open, for being radically vulnerable, for just the

766
00:49:03,340 --> 00:49:06,810
Speaker 2: care that you have brought to this conversation. And I

767
00:49:06,950 --> 00:49:12,090
Speaker 2: know it has helped people. And so I truly am

768
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:17,350
Speaker 2: thankful for you. So as you go and as you

769
00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:21,820
Speaker 2: continue your studies, know that you've already impacted loads of

770
00:49:21,860 --> 00:49:25,460
Speaker 2: people through what you have been willing to share. And

771
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,940
Speaker 2: so thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

772
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,739
Speaker 1: Well, it's very gracious of you. Thank you.

773
00:49:36,030 --> 00:49:40,750
Speaker 2: You know, there's that image that Brenda talks about. regarding

774
00:49:40,770 --> 00:49:45,810
Speaker 2: the tree house. And boy, do I think that is, um,

775
00:49:48,310 --> 00:49:52,700
Speaker 2: beautiful in so many ways, you know? So she, she

776
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,859
Speaker 2: talks about the, the tree house that her husband left

777
00:49:55,930 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 2: unfinished and, you know, wanting to just, you know, take

778
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,339
Speaker 2: a chainsaw to it. And I think there's probably people

779
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:12,410
Speaker 2: listening to this who, um, want to take a chainsaw

780
00:50:13,790 --> 00:50:16,790
Speaker 2: to this period of their life. Like even if you're

781
00:50:16,810 --> 00:50:18,270
Speaker 2: a spouse and you get to the other side, you

782
00:50:18,290 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 2: just want to, you're like, I just want to bulldoze

783
00:50:21,219 --> 00:50:25,379
Speaker 2: that thing. And I get that. And I'll be honest,

784
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 2: like there are times in my own life where I

785
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:37,350
Speaker 2: think back to what I was doing. And there is

786
00:50:37,370 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 2: a grief that comes over me. And yet, as I

787
00:50:43,940 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 2: was talking to someone yesterday, I see vividly constant reminders

788
00:50:53,780 --> 00:50:56,500
Speaker 2: of how God is taking what the devil meant for

789
00:50:56,580 --> 00:50:58,620
Speaker 2: evil and is using it for good. And that's the

790
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:06,100
Speaker 2: story of the treehouse. Like, the unfinished treehouse has become

791
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 2: the place of worship. Um, the unfinished treehouse in my

792
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 2: life has become the place from which I serve. And

793
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:27,390
Speaker 2: I just want to encourage you that this unfinished treehouse

794
00:51:28,469 --> 00:51:32,049
Speaker 2: in your life with your spouse, or if you're listening

795
00:51:32,070 --> 00:51:36,990
Speaker 2: to this and you are struggling, can be the place

796
00:51:38,650 --> 00:51:42,029
Speaker 2: from which you worship the Lord and serve Him. Like,

797
00:51:42,770 --> 00:51:44,989
Speaker 2: I'm just telling you, like Paul talks about it, like

798
00:51:45,030 --> 00:51:51,940
Speaker 2: I boast in my weaknesses. I think that is beautiful.

799
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,410
Speaker 2: That also reminds me of this, and I've written about this,

800
00:52:03,469 --> 00:52:04,890
Speaker 2: and I'll try to remember to put this in the

801
00:52:04,930 --> 00:52:10,710
Speaker 2: show notes, but I think we make a mistake regarding forgiveness.

802
00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:22,130
Speaker 2: We say or act like if we forgive someone, if

803
00:52:22,190 --> 00:52:30,730
Speaker 2: we ever have any feelings that return regarding that incident,

804
00:52:30,770 --> 00:52:33,609
Speaker 2: that person, whatever, then we have failed or we haven't

805
00:52:33,650 --> 00:52:37,740
Speaker 2: truly forgiven. And I just– think back to the words

806
00:52:37,780 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 2: of Jesus when the disciples are asking, how many times

807
00:52:40,540 --> 00:52:45,860
Speaker 2: do you forgive? Seven? He says, 70 times seven. I

808
00:52:45,900 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 2: just don't think, and this is where I'll say, I

809
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 2: went to seminary, and so I, you know, I like

810
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,129
Speaker 2: to think that I at least have some hermeneutical background.

811
00:52:59,130 --> 00:53:02,210
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean I'm not wrong here. But I think that

812
00:53:04,230 --> 00:53:13,640
Speaker 2: forgiveness And that every time you perhaps think about that

813
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,339
Speaker 2: thing that was done to you, the thing that person did,

814
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:24,270
Speaker 2: what you did, that having to forgive again is actually

815
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:31,820
Speaker 2: what we should expect. Forgiveness is a constant decision. And

816
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:34,380
Speaker 2: when you feel those feelings that you thought you had

817
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 2: put to bed, It forces you back to Jesus. So

818
00:53:40,739 --> 00:53:44,450
Speaker 2: if you're listening to this and you do get to

819
00:53:44,489 --> 00:53:49,710
Speaker 2: that other side with your spouse and you do think, man,

820
00:53:50,030 --> 00:53:51,969
Speaker 2: I thought I'd forgiven him. I thought I'd forgiven her.

821
00:53:52,590 --> 00:53:55,410
Speaker 2: Why am I feeling this again? You know what? I

822
00:53:55,430 --> 00:54:00,910
Speaker 2: think that's normal. Now what you do with that, that's

823
00:54:00,930 --> 00:54:04,700
Speaker 2: what it comes down to. Forgive them again and again

824
00:54:05,390 --> 00:54:10,939
Speaker 2: and again And again, 70 times 7. And I think

825
00:54:11,020 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 2: even in the aftermath of her husband's death, Brenda is

826
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 2: doing that as well. I'm not asking you to call

827
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 2: evil good. I'm not asking you to whitewash it. If

828
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,589
Speaker 2: you could forget it, sure. I just don't think that's possible.

829
00:54:36,410 --> 00:54:38,569
Speaker 2: I think this term like forgive and forget is actually

830
00:54:38,590 --> 00:54:41,890
Speaker 2: very destructive because we put these expectations on us. I

831
00:54:41,930 --> 00:54:44,890
Speaker 2: say this in my coaching sometimes. Don't put expectations on

832
00:54:44,910 --> 00:54:49,779
Speaker 2: you that scripture doesn't. Someone once said, I can't wait

833
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 2: until I never want to drink again. And I'm like, well,

834
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,219
Speaker 2: I mean, God can do a lot of things. But

835
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 2: guess what? I still want to drink sometimes. That's not

836
00:54:59,980 --> 00:55:04,540
Speaker 2: the expectation is not that I will never want to

837
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:09,969
Speaker 2: drink again. Um, the expectation is what am I going

838
00:55:09,989 --> 00:55:15,830
Speaker 2: to do with that desire? So the expectation for you

839
00:55:15,910 --> 00:55:17,950
Speaker 2: as a spouse or a loved one, one thing is

840
00:55:17,989 --> 00:55:20,739
Speaker 2: that you never think about what that person did or

841
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,339
Speaker 2: never have feelings that you need to take to the Lord.

842
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:26,660
Speaker 2: The expectation is that you're going to take them to

843
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 2: the Lord. So I hope that was helpful for you. Um,

844
00:55:31,660 --> 00:55:37,620
Speaker 2: if you know someone who is on this, um, on

845
00:55:37,660 --> 00:55:41,300
Speaker 2: this journey of walking this road with a spouse or

846
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 2: a loved one, I would be so honored if you

847
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:48,430
Speaker 2: shared this episode, if you shared the last episode as well.

848
00:55:49,170 --> 00:55:51,150
Speaker 2: Thank you as always to our partner Life Audio that

849
00:55:51,170 --> 00:55:53,989
Speaker 2: makes this podcast possible. And if you want to be

850
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Speaker 2: part of a community that can encourage you, we have

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Speaker 2: a lot of spouses in our free Veritas Recovery community.

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Speaker 2: You can go to veritasrecovery.org. And we continue to build

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Speaker 2: out resources for not just those who are struggling with

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Speaker 2: doing what they don't want to do, but those who

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Speaker 2: love and are struggling with loving those who do what

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Speaker 2: they don't want to do. Love you all. We'll see

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Speaker 2: you back again next week.