1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 2: What happens when the most important work of your life 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 2: begins not with a bold new vision, but with a 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: quiet return. Jason G. Green was living what many would 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 2: call a dream, working in the White House, close to power, 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 2: influence in national decision making, and then the phone rang. 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: His grandmother was dying. Jason left Washington and went home, 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:34,319 Speaker 2: not to fix anything, not to solve a problem. He 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: went home to sit at her bedside and listen. What 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 2: unfolded there was more than a family story. It was 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: the uncovering of a forgotten community, a reckoning with faith, 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 2: memory and loss, and an invitation to reconsider what we 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: mean when we talk about belonging. Today's conversation is about 14 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: the wisdom that comes when we slow down enough to listen, 15 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 2: about communities that shaped us long before we knew their names, 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 2: and about leadership that begins not by moving faster, but 17 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 2: by paying closer attention. Hello friends, I'm Alan Faddling and 18 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: you're listening to the Unhurried Living Podcast, where we seek 19 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. But first, 20 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 2: here is a word from our sponsors. 21 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: If you're new to. 22 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 2: The podcast, Welcome, I'm really glad you've found us, and 23 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: if this conversation resonates with you, I invite you to 24 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: subscribe and share the podcast with friends or colleagues who 25 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 2: might need this kind of reflection right now. My guest 26 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 2: today is Jason G. Green, author of the brand new 27 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: memoir Too Precious to Lose. In this deeply moving book, 28 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: Jason tells the story of returning home to sit with 29 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: his grandmother in what seemed to be her final days, 30 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: and how her stories opened a doorway into a hidden 31 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: history he had never been told. That history centers on 32 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 2: Quin's Orchard, a once thriving African American community in Maryland 33 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: whose legacy lived on quietly, carried by memory, faith, and resilience. 34 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: As Jason listens, researches, and remembers, he uncovers more than 35 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: the past. He discovers wisdom about community, courage, repair, and 36 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: what it truly means to belong, wisdom that feels especially 37 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: urgent in today's fractured and hurried world. Jason is a 38 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 2: community organizer, attorney, entrepreneur, and a former Special Assistant and 39 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: Associate White House Council to President Obama. He's also a 40 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:01,839 Speaker 2: filmmaker and the creator of the PBS document Finding fellowship, 41 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: which explores the history at the heart of this book. 42 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: I'm grateful for this conversation and I think you will 43 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: be too. Here now is my interview with Jason G. 44 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: Green. 45 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: Jason, it is such a pleasure to be able to 46 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: have this conversation today. Thanks so much for joining me. 47 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: It's the pleasure's mind. Al, thank you so much for 48 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: having me. 49 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: Well, I'm looking forward very much to talking about your book, 50 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: Too Precious to Lose. There's a such a beautiful story 51 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 2: you and your family and some of the history. But 52 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: maybe before we talk about your grandmother and the journey 53 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 2: that unfolds at her bedside, would you tell me a 54 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: little bit about what life was like when you got 55 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: the phone call about her then declining health, and where 56 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: you were and what you were doing, and what that 57 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: was like. 58 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you started there, but I might 59 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: even pull us back a little bit further on how 60 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: we got there. When I got that phone call, as 61 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: you know, I was four years into service as Associated 62 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: White House Council in the Obama White House. But I 63 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: had grown up in Bathersburg, Maryland, and I was droping 64 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: on a dirt road, the same dirt road that my 65 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: grandmother had growing up on, that my grand that my 66 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: father had grown up on, and so I was really 67 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: deeply asconced in the community. Sometimes when people ask Alan, 68 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: they'll say, you know, what do we need to know 69 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: about you? And I say, all you need to know 70 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: is I'm the product of a Methodist preacher and a 71 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: public school teacher and an activist grandmother. That combination who 72 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: I was. 73 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 2: Well, there you go, you know. 74 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: I left the Gathersburg area for college. I went to 75 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: Washington University in Saint Louis, and then found my way 76 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: at Eale Law School and got kind of swept up 77 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: on a path. I joined the Obama campaign and then 78 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: was in the Obama White House, and had sort of 79 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: been consumed in this pursuit of importance, and dare I 80 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: say so importance, so that I hadn't been home in 81 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: some time when I went off to law school, when 82 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: I went off to the campaign, when I went to 83 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: the White House, even though it was only thirty five 84 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: miles from where I grew up, I hadn't been home 85 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: in a while. And I had been busy. I'd been 86 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: pretty busy, hurried, some might say, and I'd been too 87 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: busy to kind of hear this story and sit with 88 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: my grandmother. And so four years into time when the 89 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: Obama administration, and I get a call from my mother. 90 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: And I'm embarrassed to say, the first time that call 91 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: came in, I sent it to voicemail. She called again, 92 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: and it was unusual. This time. She didn't call my 93 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: cell phone. She called the office number, which meant she 94 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: had to call the office the White House switchboard, who 95 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: then sent that phone number to me. And so when 96 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: I answered it, I got the call, as you said, 97 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: that my grandmother, who was then ninety five years old, 98 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: had fallen ill and was in the hospital. And that 99 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: was the wake up call in many respect that I needed. 100 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: And so I was a little scared to go and 101 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: see my grandmother had been the center of my world. 102 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: I lived at the bottom of the street. She lived 103 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: at the top of the street. When we were growing up, 104 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: that's where we got dropped off before and after school. 105 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: And the irony, Ellen, is that because my grandmother volunteered 106 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: at the local hospital. Five year old Jason volunteered at 107 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: the local hospital, and so she would take me along 108 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: with her right and we'd sit in these rooms and 109 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: I'd watch her sit with people late in life and 110 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: offer what I would call gifts of dignity. Right, she'd 111 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: sit there with a daily devotional, or she'd sit there 112 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: with a steady hand, or a joke or an ice chip. 113 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: She always knew what to do, and I got to 114 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: see firsthand what it looked like to be in servants. Well, 115 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: the irony, which you know having read the book, is 116 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: that that hospit that she used to take me to, 117 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: that was my introduction of service, was the same place 118 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: that she was now at ninety five. And so when 119 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: I got the wake up Paul, it literally was me 120 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: feeling pulled to now go and sit and offer her 121 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: that same gift of dignity that I'd watched her give 122 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: so many other people. And I said, you know, I 123 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: may not be as skilled as she was, but I 124 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: can offer a steady hand, I can read the daily devotional, 125 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: and maybe I can just be present in those moments 126 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: as she needs. 127 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: Wow, that's remarkable. Well, I appreciate that story. So you 128 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: stepped away from this role in the White House that 129 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: pace and you return home. So what was it like 130 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: to be sitting there with your grandmother's bedside and what 131 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: did it invite from you? To just be there to listen. 132 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: It's so interesting because I didn't immediately leave the administration. 133 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: At first, I thought this was me heading out to 134 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: see Grandma for a Sunday afternoon. And as I sat 135 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: and my mother was there and my grandmother was there, 136 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: and they were just in this beautiful conversation where my 137 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: kind of volleying back and forth. My mom was asking 138 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: my grandmother kind of the greatest hits of her story, 139 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: and I was learning about the woman that was that 140 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: my grandmother was right, she was always Grandma to me, 141 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: but before that she was I had to progreed and 142 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: to understand who she was and where she had been, 143 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: and her story of faith was really moving to me. 144 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: And so I was kind of being introduced to a 145 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: new person. And you framed it really well that I 146 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: was on this kind of hurried pace in the in 147 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: the administration, and as I describe it, on this sort 148 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: of path of self importance. When I called my sister, 149 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: I was like, did you know that Grandma did this, this, 150 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: and this? Expecting her to be ignorant like me, She said, 151 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: of course, I know. How did you not know she 152 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: had sort of carved out this time over the years 153 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: when we were in high school. My sister went and 154 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: had breakfast with my grandmother every morning and got to 155 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: hear a story and be in a fellowship, right, And 156 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: by the time I got to high school, there was 157 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: I wanted to be anywhere but sitting in my grandmother's 158 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: kitchen having breakfast. And so I realized that over that 159 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: time period I had sort of made I had consumed 160 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: myself with being busy and not really making time. And 161 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: so now in that room where kind of time slowed 162 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: down and there was nothing more important than sitting with 163 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: this woman who had been at kind of every milestone 164 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: along my journey, I was floored by I'd been on 165 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: this path to kind of create history, and here she was, 166 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: this personification of history, right like I had been trying 167 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: to pursue it, and it had been at my breakfast 168 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: table the whole time. And so that was really powerful. 169 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: And so ultimately to your question, I ended up leaving 170 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: the administration because I feel pulled to sort of sit 171 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: at that bedside and here all of these stories that 172 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: I had been too busy to hear before. 173 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: After the break I'll continue my conversation with Jason G. 174 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: Green. 175 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 2: That's amazing. So you know she shared stories about her life, 176 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: but then you know, this story of a community that 177 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: you hadn't fully known about begins to surface. Can you 178 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: what surprised you most? Has she shared some of that 179 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 2: story with you. 180 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: I'm embarrassed to say all of it was surprising to me. 181 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: So as I framed it when we started talking to 182 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: I grew up in the same community that my grandmother did, 183 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: and so when I grew up it was called Gaithersburg. Gaithersburg, Maryland, 184 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: sort of suburb of Washington, d C. I feel like 185 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: my time period from the eighties to the nineties was 186 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: this sort of end of a transition from rural to suburban. Well, 187 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: what was really interesting is my grandmothers as we sat 188 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: there one of our sessions, she said, oh, I missed 189 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: my hometown. And I said, Grandma, we're in I thought 190 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: this was a sign of simility, you know, we were 191 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: in this facility. I was looking for a tale, and 192 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: she said, I missed my hometown. I said, Grandma, we're 193 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: in your hometown. We're in Gaithersburg. And that's what she said. 194 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: I didn't grow up in Gaithersburg. I'm not from Gaithersburg. 195 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 1: I'm from a place called Queen's Orchard. Now I had 196 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: heard of Queen's Orchard. I grew up off of Queen's 197 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: Orchard Road. I went to Quen's Orchard High School, but 198 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: I had never heard it described as a place. And 199 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: I foolishly thought to try and correct my grandmother. I said, oh, Grandma, 200 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: you know what was you? Prince Orchard is not a place, 201 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: It's a road. And this is so sad that I 202 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: want a sharp woman as now you know, is in 203 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: mental decline. Well this was like agree to disagree. I 204 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: left that night and couldn't kind of get over the 205 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: little hustle with my grandmother about this place, and so 206 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: I ended up doing some research. I found my way 207 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: into the Washington Post archives and found an article from 208 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: nineteen oh eight that encouraged Washingtonians to get out of 209 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: the city, and it listed little towns along the way 210 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: that you should go visit, one of which was Quince Orchard, 211 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: which shocked me. And in that article it said noted 212 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: for its churches. Now, the first thing I did was 213 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: I ran back into my grandmother's hospital room and I say, Grandma, Grandma, grandma, 214 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: you know, did you know that Quince Orchard was a place? 215 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,719 Speaker 1: And of course, she gave me the biggest eye roll 216 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: you've ever seen. 217 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, do I know? 218 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: Is that what you're asking? Do you remember the fight 219 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: we had yesterday where you challenged my authority on this. 220 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: But it's odd, right, And you can appreciate this point 221 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: right until you see it in print. Sometimes it's the 222 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: text that moves us. But somehow seeing that name in 223 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: print gave license and authority to the story that she 224 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: was telling me. And so I then wanted to begin 225 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: this journey and figure out, Okay, what was quince Ortred 226 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: and if it existed in a way that my grandmother 227 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: knew it as her hometown, my father knew it as 228 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: his hometown. How was it that by the time I 229 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: came along, You know, I didn't even know that Quensortra 230 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: was ever a place. 231 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: That's amazing. Yeah, And so you know, I've reading your 232 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 2: book and then having a chance to look at the 233 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 2: PBS documentary that you produced Finding Fellowship. It's called, isn't it? 234 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:28,839 Speaker 1: That's right? Yes? 235 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's this story that you uncover that's just 236 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: a remarkable story. I wonder if you could tell a 237 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: little bit of it, because you really unpack it in 238 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: the book of course yes. 239 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: So in that newspaper article that calls out Quensorti for 240 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: being noted for its churches, I had to kind of 241 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: pull that threat. So I remember going to my grandmother 242 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: and saying, you know, what is it. Why is quince 243 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: Orchard noted for its churches whereas the neighboring town, Darnstown 244 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: is listed as noted for nothing. And so part of 245 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: the power of the story goes back one hundred years. 246 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: So my family, through this book, I articulate how, going 247 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: back to the eighteen sixties, my great great grandfather helped 248 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: the community of mass fifty four dollars to buy three 249 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: acres of land to build a schoolhouse, to build the church, 250 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: and establish the cemetery, which became the cornerstones for this 251 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 1: African American community of quin Shortu. So that was amazing 252 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: to me that that community of doers would come together 253 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: and facilitate that. And then one hundred years later, my 254 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: grandmother's generation, how that church was falling on hard times, 255 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: the transition from a rural community was beginning. They just 256 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: didn't have the density and the churches. We this is 257 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: a story we're familiar with. They didn't have the bodies 258 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: and the seats to sustain the church, and so they 259 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: were trying to figure out what they were going to do. 260 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: And so one night the church gathered right for a meal, 261 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: as we churchgoers do. They gathered in that one hundred 262 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: year old building, they have a meal and discuss their 263 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: uncertain future. And literally there was the proverbial knock at 264 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: the door where the pastor came in and let the 265 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: congregants know that doctor Martin Luther King had just been 266 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: assassinated in Memphis, Tennessee. Wow. And as you can imagine, 267 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: the meeting devolved. He took those congregants out of the 268 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: building and they all circled the flagpole and he prayed. 269 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: He prayed for the country, but he prayed for courage. 270 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: He prayed that that congregation might have courage in this moment, 271 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: because one of the things that they were considering that 272 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: was on the table was whether or not that church 273 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: that was built from a way I see from enslavement, 274 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: whether that congregation would in fact merge with two other congregations, 275 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: one of which was Northern and one of which was Southern, 276 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: who had split themselves, you know, as the Methodist Church 277 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: had split over the issue of slavery in the eighteen forties, 278 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: and as we all know, they decided to those three 279 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: churches decided to come together, and excuse me, in nineteen 280 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: sixty eight they merged and became an integrated congregation. And 281 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: so that was one of the going back to your 282 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: first question. In being with my grandmother, hearing that story 283 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: was one of the things that animated me. I needed 284 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: to hear more. I wanted to hear about this place 285 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: upuen sortred. I wanted to understand what was planted in 286 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: that soil that would allow for a decision like this 287 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: to take place. And so then I ended up leaving 288 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: the administration to be president to really explore how this 289 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: came to be and how it's the standards. 290 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: That's amazing. Yeah, just reading that story, I mean, as 291 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 2: you say from it's from the early sort of middle 292 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: nineteenth century Civil War era sort of dynamics. So I'm curious, 293 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 2: you know, this journey you've been on then from the 294 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 2: White House to listening to your grandmother and then just 295 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: continuing there, I'd love to hear about sort of your 296 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 2: vocational journey, your your leadership journey. What has that been 297 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: like to make that journey over the last whatever it's 298 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 2: been fifteen years, twenty years. 299 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, part of that has been, I would say, 300 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: my grandmother's wisdom in sort of helping me explore the story. 301 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: So when I left the administration, I thought that I 302 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: would go and sit with my grandmother and hear her story. 303 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: My grandmother would hear my enthusiasm kirk up on a 304 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: particular topic, and she would encourage me to then go. 305 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: She said, Oh, if you like that part of the story, 306 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: then you should go sit with miss Johnson. You should 307 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: go sit with Miss Howard, you should go sit with 308 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: Miss Blair. And I can't tell you how much being 309 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: able to sit with people, sit with mit, to sit 310 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: with someone bear witness, sit with someone in trulyf significance, 311 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: To sit with someone and understand their story, like that 312 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: exercise of empathy that in so many ways has affected 313 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: this vocational and leadership journey. For me. It's made me 314 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: a better lawyer, it made me a better technology technologist, 315 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: it made me a better grandson, has made me a 316 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: better family member. To be able to just sit in 317 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: reflection and deeply appreciate the subject matter, the subject, the 318 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,479 Speaker 1: person in which I'm engaging. I remember Miss Alma riginally 319 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: who was one of the women that was really foundational 320 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: in these churches coming together. I was. I had the 321 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: great pleasure of interviewing her, and at one point she said, Jason, 322 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: why are you doing all this? I said, what do 323 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: you mean, miss miss Richley? She said, well, why are 324 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: you filming this? Why are you And I said, because 325 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 1: what you guys did in nineteen sixty was important, It 326 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: was significant. And it struck me that she needed someone 327 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: else to validate that because she was just living right. 328 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: They were surviving, They were trying to figure out how 329 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: to make their church survive and their community survive. And 330 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: so it takes sometimes that external validator to be able 331 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: to say you are significant and what you've done is significant, 332 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: and I want to demonstrate that by giving you of 333 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:52,920 Speaker 1: my time and my resource. And so my own journey 334 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: has been blessed tremendously by having had that experience. And 335 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: to give you a sense of kind of the journey 336 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: that I was on before going all the way back, 337 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: you know, I remember sneaking down into the basement on 338 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: Saturday nights, you know, watching my dad start to prepare 339 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: his sermon for Sunday mornings, you know, and working on 340 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: and trying to find out which emotional invocation he's going 341 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: to deploy. And I said, that's what I'm going to do. 342 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: I want to be like my dad, and so I 343 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: started to try and mirror his cadences and you know, 344 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 1: read his books. And I remember when my dad pulled 345 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: me aside and said, you know, find your path. On 346 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: your path, you choose the ministry, your life will never 347 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: be your own. And I chose a path of service 348 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: in a different direction. But similarly, you know, when I 349 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: think about what leadership is, it's love. It is a 350 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: manifestation of service. And so I wanted to find a 351 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: way to give of myself as I saw my father 352 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: doing in the poll pits, I saw my mother doing 353 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: in the classroom, as I saw my grandmother doing in 354 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: the community. 355 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 2: That's so beautiful. I love what you said just a 356 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 2: moment ago. You know, in a sense that leadership is love. 357 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 2: I think a lot of folks do not have quite 358 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 2: that vision of what leadership is or how it works. 359 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: I wonder if you could just think out loud a 360 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 2: little bit more about that unique vision of leadership. 361 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really funny. I used to help train people 362 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: to run for political office. I helped a dear friend 363 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: of mine, Robbie Gupta, Visionary founded in an organization called 364 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: The Arena, and I was one of the co founders 365 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: and we would travel around the country and really trying 366 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: to capture and inspire people with the skill sets to 367 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: run profice. I remember I was in front of the 368 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: audience at one of these events and I was beating 369 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: the table and saying how much we needed talent, and 370 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: right in this moment move the needle. Someone came up 371 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: to me and they said, I'm bought in God. I 372 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: want to know what I can do. What's the most 373 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: important thing for being successful in a political campaign? And 374 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: I said what I said to you. I said, well, 375 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: leadership is a manifestation of service. You have to you 376 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: have to love you to love your constituents. And he 377 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: looked at me and he said, well, what's the second 378 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: most important thing, right? I said, it's it's kind of 379 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: in order a first principal thing. Right. If you don't 380 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: get one, there's no use in going down the list. 381 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: And so I think you're right. There is often a 382 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: conception that well, and I think that that's an example 383 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: is a good one that we even assume that our 384 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: elected officials. That leadership is imbued in elected officials. And 385 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 1: part of the message that I want to convey is 386 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: that leadership is something that's demonstrated. We we do ourselves 387 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,959 Speaker 1: and our communities a disservice when we think about leadership 388 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: existing only in particular places, particularly those that are where 389 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: are occupied by elected officials. Whereas these ideas of leadership 390 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: and these concepts of service that can be motivated and 391 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: oriented around love, really we need people with those skill 392 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: sets everywhere. Yes, and to break down of these kind 393 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: of occupational bounds that that tenet exists only within them, 394 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: but to pull it out. And so these ideas are 395 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: like servant leadership. I think is really important to be 396 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: able to move ideas in people communities without necessarily having 397 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 1: to be at the head of the line. It's really important. 398 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 2: That is so important. Yeah, I mean, and there's there's 399 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: a beauty, you know, in religious language or faith language, 400 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: there's a great commandment which is love God, love people. 401 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: There's a simplicity about that, but but it asks a 402 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: lot of us. It invites us to something really significant. 403 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 2: And I wonder what that invitations look like for you 404 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 2: along the way here recently. 405 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: Oh, I think that that's a that's a really powerful point. 406 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: You think about Corinthians, right, or the definitions of love 407 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: and what is love lays out love is love, It 408 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: loves kind love, it's patient. It never says love is 409 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: easy though, yeah, easy is never one of them. And 410 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: I find this idea of love is so fascinating because 411 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: when you talk about love, there are those who will say, well, 412 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: that is a a soft that is that is not 413 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: a strong enough reaction for these moments. And my response 414 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: to that is, have you tried it? What you tried 415 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: to love your neighbor in moments where you don't like 416 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 1: your neighbor? Have you tried to think in love when 417 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: you you know you want to leave the room or 418 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: you want to leave the table, you want to think 419 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: only about the advancement of your family or your community, like, 420 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: have you really tried to think about love? And in 421 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: those instances it's what we love is hard, but it 422 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: often leads us, I would say, to a better outcome. 423 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: And that's I think that's what we need to really 424 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: orient around is where do we want to go? And 425 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 1: what are the tools and tactics that can help us 426 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: get there? And I believe want love and I should 427 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: be at the forefront. 428 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 2: That's yeah, that is so so good. You're right, you 429 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 2: know it's Uh. I hear this soft skills comment, and 430 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: you're right, Uh, try it. You can decide if it's 431 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 2: soft after you've tried it. Don't don't tell me it's 432 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 2: soft before you try it. You know, absolutely absolutely. 433 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 1: And it's so you asked about some of my sort 434 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: of the occupational journey, and you said soft skills. So 435 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: I have to say, you know, a lot of my 436 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: career has been building a software company called Skills Smart, 437 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: which is all about trying to understand people at the 438 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 1: kind of skill level and helping them think about how 439 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: a skill set from one walk of life might equip 440 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: them in another walk of life. And it's about kind 441 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: of breaking down these esoteric titles right to their components 442 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: and helping people see, oh, that isn't beyond the reach, 443 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: or that isn't exclusive there. That is a set of 444 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: skills and talents that I can bring from different walks 445 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 1: of life and employ there, or be trained in and 446 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: then employ there. And so I feel the same way 447 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: here when you talk about how do you use these 448 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: skills hard skills soft skills, but how do you employ 449 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: them in these really challenging moments, Like that's what people 450 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: need to see that they have that capacity, they have 451 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: the agency to actually employ skills for important outcome. 452 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Well, so as I'm thinking circling back now 453 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 2: to sort of the essential story that you write about 454 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 2: in your book. You know that there's the story of 455 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 2: a church, a black church that is formed out of 456 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 2: Civil war and the land that was purchased, and then 457 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 2: a century later there's this this harder season for that 458 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: church and the idea maybe we talk about three churches 459 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: becoming one, so all of that had you know, there's 460 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 2: loss and there's pain. It's not a romantic, you know story, 461 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 2: It's a real story. I wonder how does some of 462 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 2: that story speak to where we find ourselves right now 463 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 2: in some of our current loss, pain, tension, difficult truth 464 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 2: in this season. 465 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: Oh, it's such a good question. I talked about my 466 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: being animated by that story because of the symbolism of 467 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: that meeting taking place on April fourth, nineteen sixty eight, 468 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: and doctor King being assassinated in Memphis on April four, 469 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight. My mind was blown. What are the 470 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: chances that that might happen. 471 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 472 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: But Ellen, what struck me as I sat with my 473 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: grandmother and all those people she would kick me out 474 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: of her hospital room to go talk to, was that 475 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: that experiment, which is an ongoing experiment, right. I wouldn't 476 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: even call it successful yet because it's an ongoing experiment, 477 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: But that experiment doesn't persist as long as it has 478 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: without everything after April fourth, nineteen sixty eight. And I 479 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: think that's such an important part of your question because 480 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: I think often we come to the moment and then 481 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: forget about the rest of the work that allows us 482 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: to kind of persist or have an opportunity to be successful. 483 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: So you talk about the loss, you talk about the history, 484 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: the culture of the identity that was wrapped up in 485 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 1: each of those churches. Well, if that hadn't been respected, 486 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: then they wouldn't have made it as far as they have. 487 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: I think about even the name to the church that 488 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: those three church which became. They didn't assume one of 489 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: those names, they didn't assume one of those buildings. They 490 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: built a new building, they took on a new name, 491 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: and they sort of developed culture for that new space 492 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: that borrowed from each of those three origin communities, and 493 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: even the church name fair Haven, right is a nod 494 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: to the story where the apostle Paul is being taken 495 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: to Rome and that that ship sees rough seas and 496 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: they take refuge at the port of fair havens right. 497 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: And so even that symbolism, they knew that the coming 498 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: together was not smooth sailing, the staying together would not 499 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: be smooth sailing. And so to go ahead and seed 500 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: some sanctuary, even in the word about what they were 501 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: going to be undertaking, I think it was really important. 502 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: And I was particularly moved by the intentionality of those 503 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: folks I'll call them the pioneers back in nineteen who 504 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: were so dedicated to this being successful. After the merger decision, 505 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: you show up in the new sanctuary. Even though this 506 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: vote has taking place, sanctuary was still often segregated. Black 507 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: con person on one side, white members might soon the other. 508 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: And there were individuals who raised their hands to be 509 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: part of a team that would physically integrate those spaces. 510 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 1: Can you imagine physically scrolling down the pew to go 511 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: and sit in between people who have decided that they 512 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: didn't want you to sit there, but with intention knowing 513 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: that this is what needs to happen. And then if 514 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: you do it once today and do it again next Sunday, 515 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: and you start to develop a practice that over time 516 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: you can break some of these tensions. And we know 517 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: that it's harder to hate when you're up close right, 518 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: to get approximate with people. One last story on that end, 519 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: I interviewed my He was then one hundred. He's now 520 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: one hundred and two, but he was then one hundred. 521 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: My grandmother's younger brother, who lives in Washington, d c. 522 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: And drives an hour out to the church. And he 523 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: drives it twice twice a week, once for choir practice 524 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: and once for the service. Who I asked to him? 525 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: I said, uncle Tompkins, why do you still make this drive? 526 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: There are integrated congregations dotted along the way now you 527 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: don't need to. And he said, Jason, it was very 528 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: important that they see me, that my face be seen 529 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: in the sanctuary choir on church on Sunday mornings. It 530 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: was important in nineteen sixty eight, it's just as important now. 531 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: And so that sort of dedication and intention to an 532 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: idea is what's making this, you know, daily possible. 533 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a someone has talked about a long obedience 534 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: in the same direction, you know, sort of a thing 535 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 2: that it's one thing to make a big, exciting splash, 536 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 2: it's another to faithfully, over a long, long journey stay somewhere. 537 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: And in a sense, that's what love does. Love's better 538 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: at that latter sort of thing than the just the 539 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 2: real quick, do something big and move on kind of approach. 540 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: Oh, it's absolutely mean. I'm put it in the context 541 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: of spiritual formation. We know that there aren't these mountaintop moments. 542 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: You don't get to summit. It is this state obedience. 543 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: It is a practice. It's a learned practice, and there's 544 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: a dedication to it, which I found really special to see, 545 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: and it I had lived it. But one of the 546 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: things that was kind of eye opening for me along 547 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: the journey Alan was I was baptized in this church Bearhaven, Right, 548 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: I grew up in an integrated sanctuary, right, singing in 549 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: the church choir. But I hadn't heard that origin story, 550 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: and so I'd lived my life. I go off to 551 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: the White House, I get to call from my mother 552 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: and I'm sitting in my grandmother's room and she tells 553 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: me about nineteen sixty eight and how racially divisive it was, 554 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: and the context in which this decision was taking place. 555 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: She told me about these three churches, and before she 556 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: could say that they merged, I cut her off and 557 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: I said, those three churches didn't merge, did they? And 558 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: she looked at me disappointed. She's like, Jason, of course 559 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: they did this fair Haven. You've been there, you were 560 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: baptized there. But something about living in the world, something 561 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: about being out in the world made me think that 562 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: that sort of a decision wouldn't happen. 563 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 2: It's just impossible, just too hard. 564 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: Come on, we push away from the table and say, 565 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: you know what, it's just asking too much, it's too hard. 566 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: And so that's kind of to your point when you 567 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: can textualize it today, do we have the capacity to 568 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: make that kind of a decision and then have that 569 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: state obedience over time to sustain it? 570 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 2: That is so powerful. There's just such a need for 571 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 2: the different ways. Now we find ourselves in camps or 572 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: tribes or groups of certain conviction, and there's value in 573 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 2: those convictions, but then we're not in any kind of 574 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: fellowship with someone who has a different vision. And there 575 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 2: was something unique that happened in these three churches coming 576 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 2: together to become one church. That was hugely risky, that 577 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,719 Speaker 2: was immensely difficult to do, and I think only love 578 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 2: would make it possible. 579 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that frame that you just said, by 580 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: the way, because there's a deep appreciation for the three 581 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: Foundational churches too. Yes, some people say so, is the 582 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: message taken away here that everyone should merge into No, 583 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: But the idea here is that if our institutions aren't 584 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: serving the opportunity to be in community, if it's not 585 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: actually enabling people to be more approximate to people who 586 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: don't think like them, then that's actually holding us back. 587 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: And so whether you're in your own congregation on Sunday morning, 588 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: but you're finding ways to engage a different congregation that 589 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 1: has that doesn't look like you, maybe worships differently, that 590 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 1: has different orientation, that thinks about the world differently. That's 591 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: what this is really trying to get us to think about, 592 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: how do we what sort of communities do we want 593 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: to build, what role do we play in building them? 594 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: And are the institutions in which we inhabit serving us 595 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: in that right direction. 596 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so good. Well, I'd love to maybe circle 597 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 2: back now to sort of your journey as a leader. 598 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 2: You know, a lot of the leaders in our listening audience, 599 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 2: you know, they feel the pressure to move quickly, to produce, 600 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,320 Speaker 2: to to stay ahead, to to stay at a really 601 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 2: intensive you know, frantic maybe anxious maybe pace. You went 602 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 2: on a journey from your experience in the White House 603 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 2: to the bedside with your grandmother, and then the journey 604 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 2: that you'd continued. I wonder if you could speak to 605 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: maybe some of the wisdom maybe that you could offer 606 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,720 Speaker 2: leaders who maybe they've lost touch with their roots, maybe 607 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: they've they've lost touch with what matters the most and 608 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 2: sort of your self importance. Comment about what maybe was 609 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 2: driving you early on, and share with our maybe our 610 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 2: listeners some of that journey and the value of that journey. 611 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for that question. I'd say it's still ongoing, 612 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: and then it respects yes and this idea of constantly 613 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: being being in conversation to what am I called to do? 614 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: You know one of my favorite hymns is here, I 615 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: am Lord is a diye lord, I heard you calling 616 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: in the night. I will go if you lead me 617 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: right like and in what direction? And I think that 618 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: sometimes we'll ask the question and answer our own question 619 00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: before we give God time to answer guilty of that. 620 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:06,280 Speaker 1: And so I I was sort of filling that space 621 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: with things that were externally validated as important. That's all 622 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: I ever wanted to do growing up. I wanted to 623 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: do something significant. I wanted to make people's lives better. 624 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: I wanted that was my goal, and so the White 625 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 1: House was a wonderful platform to try and make people's 626 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: lives better. But I forgot about the other pieces and 627 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,399 Speaker 1: I let it kind of consume me. I think that's 628 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: the important I'm not encouraging anyone to not take an 629 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: opportunity at the White House, just maybe don't idolize that 630 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: experience and in so doing block out the other components 631 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: of life, like visiting family, like being proximate, like those 632 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: missing births. Right. I think that that sort of consumed me. 633 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: And so what was really fortunate for me, and this 634 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: happens in life, is that I had a forcing event, 635 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 1: my grandmother's phone call in the hospital room. Forcing event. 636 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: She was ninety five years old. You know, she lived 637 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: until she was one hundred and six. If I had 638 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: known that she was going to live eleven more years, 639 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: I probably don't leave the White House. I probably don't 640 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: go and sit in the hospital room. I probably leave 641 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: and go to New York and you know, become a 642 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: lawyer in the New York legal scene. And I missed 643 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: this whole opportunity to sit with my grandmother and learn 644 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: my story. And one of the things I appreciate now 645 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 1: looking back on it is that when I was running 646 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,919 Speaker 1: around the White House between the ages of twenty seven 647 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: and thirty one, trying to get people to listen to me, 648 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: in retrospect, I didn't really have much to say, you know, 649 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: like my time with my grandmother actually gave me my 650 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: story because it gave me my phone. NAT told me 651 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: who we are, told me who whose I was, right, 652 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: who I was, and whose I was, where I came from, 653 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: in a grounding that I think puts things in context 654 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: in an important way but also gives me an authority 655 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: to engage in conversation in an important way. And so 656 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: I just I'm so I wish it hadn't taken forcing event. 657 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: But I think as we're applying that concept more broadly, 658 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 1: I think we need to appreciate forcing events in our lives. 659 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: If we don't slow down, I'll find a way. Yeah, 660 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: And so that slow down will come and inim that slowdown. Man, 661 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: have I been blessed to be able to learn my 662 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 1: story and my grandmother's story and sit with these individuals, 663 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: but also understand the significance that you get from being 664 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: with other people, right to be able, the importance of 665 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: storytelling and sharing these stories with others, the power that exists, 666 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: and really the agency. What I want people to come 667 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: away with is that when you talk about the chaos 668 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 1: that exists in the world today, I think a lot 669 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: of people feel like the way to respond to that 670 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: chaos is to grasp for control and control and feel 671 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 1: like isolating can feel like pulling back. But you know, 672 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: and I know that the opposite of chaos isn't control 673 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 1: as connection, and so to be able to get well 674 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: said and being community is how we move through these 675 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: difficult times and move through them together. 676 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 2: That's so good. One of the things I sort of 677 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 2: caught from what you wrote is you describe community as 678 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 2: something that we inherit, we steward. We sort of don't 679 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 2: invent it from scratch, We don't make it happen, We 680 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 2: receive it and we honor it. At least that's been 681 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 2: my experience as well. How could that insight maybe shape 682 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 2: the way faith leaders think about the people they serve, 683 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 2: the places they serve. 684 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: Oh, I think it's a beautiful analogy, and I think 685 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: it's we're worth stewards of community for the time that 686 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 1: we have right this is these are and for your 687 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: listeners who are shepherds of their flock, pastorally or organizationally, 688 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: we have a responsibility and that's not I think going 689 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: back to our conversation around love and leadership, that's not 690 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 1: top down, that's that's middle out right, And so how 691 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: do we have within a community, how do we have 692 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: shared responsibility? I want you to love my kid. The 693 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,479 Speaker 1: best way for me for you to love my child 694 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 1: is for me to love yours. It's the best way 695 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: for us to start to build shared responsibility and for 696 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: us to then build shared values, for us to steward 697 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: this community in a way that we can agree to 698 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: the outcomes that we want and then work diligently to 699 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,439 Speaker 1: make that happen. Right, And I feel like we get 700 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: to do that together for the short amount of time 701 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: that we get to. You know, we inherit. That's a 702 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,879 Speaker 1: set of values and if we're fortunate enough, we get 703 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: to learn about we get to sit long enough and 704 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: learn some of those those values, and then we get 705 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: to tend to them, tend to our flock, right, and 706 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: then we try and pass that on. So would be 707 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: so blessed pass on to others to continue to steward 708 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,800 Speaker 1: that in a way that will benefits that we'll never see. 709 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 2: As so well said, Well, as we come to a 710 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 2: close to our conversation, I wonder if I could just 711 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 2: maybe ask a more general question, and that would be, 712 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,440 Speaker 2: as our listeners will pick up your book and read it, 713 00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:29,840 Speaker 2: what are some of the things you hope they'll catch 714 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 2: from having read this story and your own journey really 715 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 2: that's captured in these pages. 716 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for the opportunity, and I'm so excited to 717 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 1: share this story with your listeners. And I'm deeply appreciative 718 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: of you taking the time to read the book and 719 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: for them to read the book and watch the documentary. 720 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: We just talked a little bit about one thing that 721 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,560 Speaker 1: I want people to really feel empowered coming through this story. 722 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: When I learned about my great great grandfather and great 723 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: great grandmother post emancipation. Can imagine eighteen sixty eight pooling 724 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 1: together fifty four dollars to build the schoolhouse. I remember 725 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 1: my grandmother was telling me the story and I said, 726 00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,520 Speaker 1: you know, I was a Washington lawyer. I was skeptic, right, 727 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 1: I said, Grandma, I don't there had to be a 728 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: safer way than building a building on the main drag 729 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: and painted white, and say, when we're educating black children here, 730 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: there had to be a safer, less conspicuous way. And 731 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,440 Speaker 1: my grandmother cut me off and said, Jason, there was 732 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:43,040 Speaker 1: no public education for black children at that time. You're 733 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: a great great grandmother and your great great grandfather. They 734 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: looked around their community, they saw a need, and they 735 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:56,520 Speaker 1: took action because they were doers, and doers do because 736 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: they were doers and doers due And it was so 737 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: profound for me from someone who was sort of a 738 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: you know, I could analyze the situation to death, and 739 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: here she said, you know, there are people who look 740 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: around their community and take action as they see a need, 741 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,799 Speaker 1: and they're doers. And so I feel as though we're 742 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 1: in a moment right now where people are looking around 743 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: and they're feeling the chaos. There's an element of mayhem, 744 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,879 Speaker 1: and they're not quite sure what to do, and they 745 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: feel like it's happening to them, and they have no 746 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,239 Speaker 1: agency in what in what the outcome can be. And 747 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: I want them to know that if you get proximate, 748 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: you operate where you are, you reach out to someone 749 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: else in your community, there's a great There's so much 750 00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 1: that we can do. You can build a schoolhouse that 751 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 1: benefited a generation one hundred and fifty years later that 752 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 1: you never even knew. There's we can plant the seeds 753 00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 1: that grow trees under which people will be give in 754 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: shade we'll never see. And so that's a significant takeaway. 755 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: And I want people to walk away is that they 756 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 1: have agency in this moment. They can be doers, and 757 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: doers do. 758 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 2: I love that. And the doing that I hear you 759 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 2: describing sounds like it's rooted in the kind of robust faith. 760 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,319 Speaker 2: It's a doing that's an expression of a deep and 761 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 2: profound love. I mean, that's where the doing is coming from. 762 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 2: And either's something beautiful about that and. 763 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: The doing there also, I think provides some answer and 764 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,239 Speaker 1: the uncertainty when you start to act, right in the 765 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,760 Speaker 1: concept of the of the social Gospel, when you start 766 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: to act, it gives you clarity even when there's uncertainty. 767 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: Let's act. Let's start to marshal in a direction, and 768 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: more things will become clear, and more things will become clear. 769 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,719 Speaker 1: But the action, the paralysis by analysis is a real thing. 770 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: Or overthink and then moments have passed where we see needs, 771 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: we can marshal people forward. It's amazing the community that builds. 772 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,879 Speaker 2: According to Yeah, I love that so much. Well, thank 773 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 2: you again. Today again, my guest has been Jason G. 774 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 2: Green and we've been talking about his book, Too Precious 775 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,839 Speaker 2: to Lose. Jason, it's been such a pleasure to talk 776 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 2: with you today. 777 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:21,399 Speaker 1: I so appreciate the time. 778 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Thank you, Thank you for listening 779 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 2: to the Unhurry Living podcast. To learn more about us, 780 00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 2: visit unhurryliving dot com. In the show notes, you'll find 781 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,279 Speaker 2: helpful links and information about our partner, Live Audio and 782 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 2: all of their other faith centered podcasts.