1
00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640
Speaker 1: Life Audio.

2
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,520
Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

3
00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,919
Speaker 2: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

4
00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:28,320
Speaker 2: your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.

5
00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,320
Speaker 2: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

6
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,200
Speaker 2: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

7
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,080
Speaker 1: But it's also a place of hope and healing.

8
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,680
Speaker 2: I know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became

9
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,400
Speaker 2: an alcoholic, not the other way around. Today I've found

10
00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 2: sobriety after decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety,

11
00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:54,760
Speaker 2: I found Jesus.

12
00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:55,840
Speaker 1: My prayer is.

13
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,200
Speaker 2: That as I interview people just like you and just

14
00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,400
Speaker 2: like me, along with professionals in the fields of trauma,

15
00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,399
Speaker 2: faith and addiction recovery, you will find the piece that

16
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,640
Speaker 2: is available to you through Christ on the other side

17
00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,399
Speaker 2: of whatever you're going through and whatever addiction that might be.

18
00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:20,520
Speaker 2: Because let's face it, we're all addicted to something so welcome,

19
00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,280
Speaker 2: let's get radically vulnerable as we explore what it looks

20
00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,280
Speaker 2: like to be on this journey of MESSI sanctification. We'll

21
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:34,440
Speaker 2: be right back after this. How do you answer this question,

22
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,360
Speaker 2: what's the worst that could happen. And see, I think

23
00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,120
Speaker 2: a lot of people they ask that question in order

24
00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,479
Speaker 2: to get someone else to maybe think of the good. Right,

25
00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,640
Speaker 2: But if you're like me, when someone asks what's the

26
00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:55,360
Speaker 2: worst that could happen? My mind goes to bad and

27
00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:03,240
Speaker 2: really bad because I am a catastrophizer, and I tend

28
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:06,800
Speaker 2: to think about all the worst things that could happen.

29
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,600
Speaker 2: In my first book, Finding Rest, I call it the

30
00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:10,880
Speaker 2: tyranny of the what if?

31
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,520
Speaker 1: What if this? What if that? What if this? What

32
00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:14,960
Speaker 1: if that?

33
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:21,360
Speaker 2: And I think for a lot of my life that dominated.

34
00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 2: I would say over the last ten years that has

35
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,440
Speaker 2: gotten a lot better, but still in my weakness, if

36
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,560
Speaker 2: you will, I catastrophize. And guys, I'm just going to

37
00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:37,000
Speaker 2: be really honest with you. I'm going through something right

38
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,320
Speaker 2: now where I am catastrophizing a lot.

39
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:41,320
Speaker 1: See.

40
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,480
Speaker 2: I will hopefully reveal to you very soon what comes

41
00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:46,040
Speaker 2: next for me.

42
00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 1: And I think it's.

43
00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,400
Speaker 2: Going to require a lot of sacrifice, more sacrifice than

44
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,480
Speaker 2: I thought it's going to be. I think, great, I

45
00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,320
Speaker 2: know it's what God has called me to do. But

46
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:02,839
Speaker 2: yet there is a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot

47
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,040
Speaker 2: of risk, and my mind, especially over the last twenty

48
00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,639
Speaker 2: four hours has gone to a lot of places that

49
00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,880
Speaker 2: what if this doesn't work out, what if I make

50
00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,320
Speaker 2: a fool of myself, what if I'm not hearing the Lord?

51
00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,799
Speaker 2: Just all those tyranny of the what ifs. But I'm

52
00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,720
Speaker 2: reminded that there's another question that we should be asking ourselves,

53
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,399
Speaker 2: and that I need to be asking myself. And it's

54
00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:35,600
Speaker 2: the question that today's guest, Nicole Zezowski, is asking. In fact,

55
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,200
Speaker 2: she's written an entire book around this one question. And

56
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:45,000
Speaker 2: here's the question. Now, what if it's bad, what if

57
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:51,040
Speaker 2: it's wonderful? That is the title of her book. And

58
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,560
Speaker 2: I could not be more excited to talk with her,

59
00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,960
Speaker 2: because the truth is, I need this conversation. I need

60
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,120
Speaker 2: this conversation today. I need it in this season, and

61
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,800
Speaker 2: I wonder if you do too. Because even though we're

62
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 2: at the end of the year and we start wrapping things,

63
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:05,920
Speaker 2: wrapping things up, and we start looking forward to the

64
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,640
Speaker 2: next year and we're making, you know, new Year's resolutions,

65
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:10,120
Speaker 2: I think the truth for a lot of people is

66
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,280
Speaker 2: that this is a time that can be really scary.

67
00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,280
Speaker 2: It's a time that stretches us financially. It's a time

68
00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:22,040
Speaker 2: that stretches, stretches us mentally and emotionally with family and whatnot,

69
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 2: and I know that that's where I'm at, and so

70
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:31,159
Speaker 2: I am so excited to talk with Nicole today about

71
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 2: not what if It's awful, but what if it's wonderful? So,

72
00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:42,599
Speaker 2: without further ado, let's talk to Nicole Sayzowski. Nicole, thank

73
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,839
Speaker 2: you so much for joining the Confessions of a Christian

74
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:46,080
Speaker 2: Alcoholic podcast.

75
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:47,240
Speaker 1: This is a real treat.

76
00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:52,480
Speaker 2: We're talking online before we started recording that I've appreciated.

77
00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:57,200
Speaker 1: I haven't even gotten fully through your book, but the parts.

78
00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,920
Speaker 2: That I've read so far, I've so appreciated that I'm

79
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,320
Speaker 2: we're going to finish it, but it's also going to

80
00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,160
Speaker 2: be a resource that I'm gonna point people to because

81
00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,000
Speaker 2: I just think it's so good. So thank you for

82
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:06,960
Speaker 2: joining the podcast.

83
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,040
Speaker 3: Oh I'm honored to be here and excited for this conversation.

84
00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 1: So the book, what if It's Wonderful?

85
00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,080
Speaker 2: I think one of the things, and we'll just kind

86
00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,000
Speaker 2: of jump into this in a second, but one of

87
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,560
Speaker 2: the things that I think is important is I know

88
00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,839
Speaker 2: that as I was in the throes of my addiction,

89
00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:31,839
Speaker 2: that the catastrophizing, the the not being able to see

90
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,600
Speaker 2: what the other side looked like. Sure kept me kept

91
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,120
Speaker 2: me stuck. But before we get into that, you kind

92
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,600
Speaker 2: of have and you outline some of this story in

93
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,479
Speaker 2: the beginning parts of the book, but obviously you're not

94
00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,760
Speaker 2: an addict, but you went through a lot of pain,

95
00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,719
Speaker 2: especially as it relates to children, and so just kind

96
00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 2: of give us a brief overview of that story, and

97
00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,200
Speaker 2: then kind of what led you to writing what If

98
00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:56,799
Speaker 2: It's Wonderful?

99
00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:58,440
Speaker 1: Sure?

100
00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,160
Speaker 3: What if It's wonderful? You know, people see the title

101
00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,840
Speaker 3: and confetti on the cover and they assume I had

102
00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 3: a lot to say about joy and celebration, when really

103
00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,599
Speaker 3: that book was born much more out of a season

104
00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:17,080
Speaker 3: that could be largely characterized by change and loss. There

105
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,600
Speaker 3: were lots of changes and losses embedded in that season,

106
00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,200
Speaker 3: but I would say it started with a sudden and

107
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:30,240
Speaker 3: painful move across the country. I was very comfortable in

108
00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,480
Speaker 3: our old home in California and our old community, and

109
00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,640
Speaker 3: we moved pretty quickly for my husband's job, and that

110
00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,440
Speaker 3: actually revealed a lot of addictions of the heart for me,

111
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:48,920
Speaker 3: in terms of my need for approval, my performance orientation,

112
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,719
Speaker 3: my personhood, and my performance had become very fused. And

113
00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 3: so when I moved to a place where no one

114
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,920
Speaker 3: knew me, I had to start over. Nobody cared about

115
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:05,360
Speaker 3: what I had accomplished elsewhere. I really had to confront

116
00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,560
Speaker 3: a lot of things in my own heart. And that

117
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 3: was the best and worst thing that ever happened to me.

118
00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,480
Speaker 3: It was really really good to be stripped of those

119
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,400
Speaker 3: entitlements and comforts, because when you're left empty handed, as

120
00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,160
Speaker 3: you know, you're able to receive Christ in places that

121
00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,080
Speaker 3: you were tempted to replace him. And then, you know,

122
00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,520
Speaker 3: shortly after we got here, we wanted to We're on

123
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,080
Speaker 3: the East coast now, and we wanted to grow our family.

124
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:39,040
Speaker 3: And I assumed, you know, as somebody who was used

125
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,080
Speaker 3: to if I work hard at something, I can make

126
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,800
Speaker 3: it happen. I assumed that this would be an easy

127
00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:52,320
Speaker 3: process for me naively, and we discovered a medical diagnosis

128
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,320
Speaker 3: in that journey that basically means every time I get

129
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 3: pregnant I have less than a fifty percent chance of

130
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 3: getting to meet that baby this day of heaven. And

131
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,840
Speaker 3: how that actually played out in our story, I'm very,

132
00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:10,960
Speaker 3: very very thankful to have my three children. How that

133
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,120
Speaker 3: played out initially was was five miscarriages, and we had

134
00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,720
Speaker 3: one of our children in the midst of those five,

135
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,400
Speaker 3: but just a lot of loss knowing about this medical diagnosis.

136
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,720
Speaker 3: You know, our joy was accompanied by a lot of

137
00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,120
Speaker 3: fear every time I got pregnant and we were celebrating

138
00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,920
Speaker 3: the hope of that and the anticipation of meeting this

139
00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:41,920
Speaker 3: child that God had created, you know, there was always

140
00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,719
Speaker 3: the other side of that, which is what if we

141
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:51,040
Speaker 3: don't And so coming out of that, what I realized,

142
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,680
Speaker 3: even though when we started encountering some good news and

143
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,880
Speaker 3: some breakthrough in our story, I realized I was hesitant

144
00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:05,079
Speaker 3: to embrace it because of that practiced protection of cynicism

145
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,080
Speaker 3: and pessimism that often accompanied my joy. And I was

146
00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:14,880
Speaker 3: really grieved. You know, nothing happened that made me come

147
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:19,240
Speaker 3: to this realization, but I woke up one morning and realized, Yeah,

148
00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,760
Speaker 3: I've experienced a lot of loss in my story, but

149
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,320
Speaker 3: a lot of the loss I've experienced to spend my

150
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,600
Speaker 3: refusal to embrace the very good things that are right

151
00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,160
Speaker 3: in front of me. And I thought, I don't want

152
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,680
Speaker 3: to miss out on my beautiful, God given life because

153
00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 3: I am so busy preparing for the worst. And so

154
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,920
Speaker 3: I did a deep dive into scripture. I did a

155
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,960
Speaker 3: deep dive into neuroscience research as a therapist. I'm fascinated

156
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,120
Speaker 3: with how God made our brain. I think we're just

157
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:55,680
Speaker 3: discovering what scripture has told us for since, and science

158
00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:01,560
Speaker 3: is just catching up to scripture. But I'm fascinated by

159
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 3: how God designed our brains. And I wanted to know,

160
00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,160
Speaker 3: how can I do this differently? How can I actually

161
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,280
Speaker 3: practice joy outside of circumstance. How can I retrain my

162
00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,200
Speaker 3: brain toward hope so that I'm not asking all the

163
00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,000
Speaker 3: other kind of what if questions? What if I fail?

164
00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:25,360
Speaker 3: What if I'm disappointed, what if I grieve? What if

165
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,480
Speaker 3: hope leads me to devastation? And that's where what if

166
00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,080
Speaker 3: It's wonderful became my catchphrase to sort of pivot my

167
00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,280
Speaker 3: mind and open me up toward hope, and it became

168
00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,320
Speaker 3: the title of the book. So that's the backstory.

169
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,520
Speaker 2: So that leads a great segue into one of the

170
00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,760
Speaker 2: questions I wanted to ask you. You're talking about hope, right,

171
00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,679
Speaker 2: and I think, you know, there's probably a lot of

172
00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,360
Speaker 2: people listening to this, either they know what it's like

173
00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,320
Speaker 2: to not have hope or they just don't have hope

174
00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,559
Speaker 2: right now? Right there was I tried to quit drinking

175
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,640
Speaker 2: so many times, right and you know, i'd quit for

176
00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,839
Speaker 2: a little bit and I just go right back and

177
00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,520
Speaker 2: and I just kind of resigned, like this is who

178
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:09,800
Speaker 2: I am.

179
00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,079
Speaker 1: Like not in the sense of like I'm.

180
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:13,560
Speaker 2: Just gonna you know, God may be this way and

181
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:15,600
Speaker 2: I just want to it, but it was just like,

182
00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,440
Speaker 2: I don't I don't have hope. And I was talking

183
00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,160
Speaker 2: to someone the other day, and I don't disparage them

184
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,800
Speaker 2: for saying this, but I've heard it from a couple

185
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,839
Speaker 2: of people where they're like, well, hope is not a strategy.

186
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,679
Speaker 2: And I know they have good intentions, but it just

187
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,839
Speaker 2: always bothers me when I hear that. And so I

188
00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,880
Speaker 2: guess my question to you is, how do we how

189
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,360
Speaker 2: do we grasp that hope? How do we turn that

190
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 2: into something practical? Can help be a strategy if you

191
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,000
Speaker 2: will talk about the importance of hope.

192
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:54,240
Speaker 3: My favorite scripture that talks about this is in Lamentations

193
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,000
Speaker 3: and what I which is you know ironic right there

194
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,679
Speaker 3: that it's a book that has a lot of a

195
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:07,240
Speaker 3: lament outlined in detail, and it's Lamentations three and the

196
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:12,320
Speaker 3: author is very honest about the despair, the grief. As

197
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 3: you were mentioning, you know, saying some of those similar

198
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:19,319
Speaker 3: lines that you just said. And then there's this point

199
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:24,880
Speaker 3: in the passage where the tone completely shifts, and the

200
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 3: shift doesn't come from a change in circumstance, The shift

201
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,920
Speaker 3: doesn't come from even a change in emotional experience. The

202
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 3: shift comes from But this I call to mind, and

203
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:45,200
Speaker 3: therefore I have hope and the unfortunate. I don't like

204
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,680
Speaker 3: this about the brain, but it is. The reality is

205
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,400
Speaker 3: we can think and act our way to a new feeling.

206
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 3: We cannot feel our way to a new way of

207
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,240
Speaker 3: thinking and acting. And I bump up against this as

208
00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,240
Speaker 3: a therapist all the time that we want to we

209
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,840
Speaker 3: want our feelings to change, and then we want the

210
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:11,200
Speaker 3: actions to come out of those feelings, when unfortunately, the

211
00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 3: reality that we're dealing with neurologically is we've got to

212
00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:20,600
Speaker 3: claim a different message for ourselves. Because God does give

213
00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,360
Speaker 3: us a choice. He gives us a choice as to

214
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,840
Speaker 3: whether or not we're going to continue to agree with

215
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,440
Speaker 3: the lie or whether we're going to carry the truth

216
00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,679
Speaker 3: into the future. And then how are we going to

217
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,120
Speaker 3: practice that truth? For me? You know I often ask myself,

218
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,560
Speaker 3: what does a person who knows she's valuable do? And

219
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,040
Speaker 3: then I do that thing. I may not, you know,

220
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,839
Speaker 3: I mentioned that I struggle with a performance identity, and

221
00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,160
Speaker 3: a lot of that comes with a deep sense of

222
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,439
Speaker 3: inadequacy a lot. And yet I know I have a

223
00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,200
Speaker 3: choice of whether I tell myself that message or whether

224
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 3: I tell myself a different message and choose to act

225
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 3: on that. So this is not a fake it till

226
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,319
Speaker 3: you make it situation, but there is. We do have

227
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,439
Speaker 3: an empowered choice, and a lot of people they'll push

228
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,400
Speaker 3: back on me and say, well, I just you know,

229
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,320
Speaker 3: our culture values authenticity and being genuine, and I just don't.

230
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,880
Speaker 3: I don't. I know that's true, but I don't feel it,

231
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,720
Speaker 3: and I really want to encourage everyone listening. That's okay,

232
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,720
Speaker 3: of course you don't feel it, because the brain prefers

233
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,480
Speaker 3: what it knows, not necessarily what is good or true,

234
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,760
Speaker 3: And we're empowered to make a choice as to what

235
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,800
Speaker 3: message we continue to tell our brain and what, you know,

236
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:49,480
Speaker 3: what message will become familiar. So I mean that to

237
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 3: be empowering and encouraging that we actually have a lot

238
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,440
Speaker 3: more agency over hope than we tend to believe.

239
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 2: You mentioned something there that I think is another great segue,

240
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,240
Speaker 2: and that is you write in the book that I

241
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,760
Speaker 2: think the quote is there's a difference between feelings being

242
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:15,800
Speaker 2: real and feelings being true. Yeah, and I love that

243
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 2: unpacked that for us.

244
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:18,440
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that?

245
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,960
Speaker 3: Yeah? And this is very related to what I just shared,

246
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,320
Speaker 3: But I you know, we all have stories that form

247
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,200
Speaker 3: the kind of wounds we feel when we're in pain.

248
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,440
Speaker 3: So you and I could go through the exact same

249
00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:41,480
Speaker 3: situation tomorrow and I might feel inadequate or not good enough,

250
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 3: and you might feel, for example, alone or powerless. Even

251
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 3: though the circumstance is exactly the same. We're gonna feel

252
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,800
Speaker 3: it where our previous wounds are. And so I always

253
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,480
Speaker 3: give the analogy if I have a broken arm and

254
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,000
Speaker 3: you have a broken leg, we both take the same fall.

255
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:03,720
Speaker 3: I'm going to feel it in my arm and you're

256
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,640
Speaker 3: gonna feel it in your leg because that's where our

257
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:10,160
Speaker 3: previous injuries are. And so we all have good reasons

258
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,640
Speaker 3: for feeling the way we do when we encounter something

259
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:20,040
Speaker 3: painful and we are empowered to make a choice. You know,

260
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:26,560
Speaker 3: pretty much mid adolescence we start becoming the main informers

261
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:32,080
Speaker 3: of the message that our brain about our identity and

262
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,880
Speaker 3: sensive safety. So in early childhood, you know, you and

263
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,400
Speaker 3: I both have young kids, parents are huge in informing

264
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:46,160
Speaker 3: their parents or their children's identity and sensive safety. By

265
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:51,080
Speaker 3: about mid adolescens, parents are still important, but the we

266
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 3: become the main informants when it comes to our identity

267
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 3: and sensive safety. And so we have a choice as

268
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:04,439
Speaker 3: to whether or not that painful message, that feeling of

269
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,959
Speaker 3: not being good enough, or that feeling of being powerless

270
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,920
Speaker 3: or alone, or whatever messages you picked up in childhood,

271
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 3: is that the message we're going to choose to pick

272
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,520
Speaker 3: up and carry moving forward, or can we speak truth

273
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,920
Speaker 3: to that, because we all have good reasons for feeling

274
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 3: those things, but we get to decide if that's the

275
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,159
Speaker 3: truth that we're really going to claim for ourselves.

276
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:30,720
Speaker 2: It's funny you say that, because I think as I

277
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,280
Speaker 2: look back at my own story, and I think one

278
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 2: of the hardest things that friends and family members had

279
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,919
Speaker 2: an understanding when I when I finally came out and

280
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 2: talked about my alcoholism was.

281
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,400
Speaker 1: I started talking about the traumas.

282
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,760
Speaker 2: That I experienced, and and they're like, so, wait, you're

283
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,320
Speaker 2: drinking away like these things that happened to Yes, No,

284
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 2: but what happened is you start the traumas inform and

285
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,679
Speaker 2: it lies and and and beliefs about yourself that you

286
00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,159
Speaker 2: care with you your whole life. And I'm like, I'm

287
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,200
Speaker 2: trying to drink away those lies. I'm trying to drink

288
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,240
Speaker 2: away those beliefs, right, So so it's it's it's a

289
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,000
Speaker 2: plus b you know what I mean, like and and

290
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,000
Speaker 2: and as I look back at my own story, absolutely

291
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 2: I can pinpoint almost exactly when I started playing those

292
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,920
Speaker 2: soundtracks in my head as as an adolescent, right, and

293
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 2: those things, right, those those words, those beliefs started coming.

294
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,640
Speaker 2: And maybe I didn't drink start drinking them away till

295
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,840
Speaker 2: you know, fifteen years later, you know, yeah, but I did, right,

296
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,120
Speaker 2: So I think that's that's that's such an interesting thing

297
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:47,200
Speaker 2: to that that that you pointed out. You you talk

298
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 2: about in the book that about about shame, right, And

299
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,440
Speaker 2: I have a whole chapter in my book about shame

300
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,399
Speaker 2: as well. And I think, you know, shame is so

301
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,480
Speaker 2: big when we're stuck in addiction. I even used my

302
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,919
Speaker 2: rudimentary canvas skills to draw a shame cycle Okay, so

303
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:08,360
Speaker 2: proud of myself.

304
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:10,960
Speaker 3: Fred, I don't have those skills.

305
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,919
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, my wife taught me good. And so

306
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 2: you talk about when it comes to shame, that it's

307
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,679
Speaker 2: really hard to hear those good voices, right that you

308
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 2: believe those lives. Talk about like, how do we and

309
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 2: maybe this goes to what you were just saying, but

310
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,479
Speaker 2: how do we train ourselves to listen to the good

311
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 2: voices and not the shame voices?

312
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,200
Speaker 3: Yeah? So the model I practice in my therapy practice

313
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,159
Speaker 3: is called restoration therapy. And as a restoration therapist, we

314
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,879
Speaker 3: would say that there's four main ways that we tend

315
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:55,120
Speaker 3: to cope or react to our primary emotions. So primary

316
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 3: emotions are going to be either about who you are

317
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 3: or your sense of say in the world, in your security.

318
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,280
Speaker 3: And then we tend to react in one, two, three,

319
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 3: or all four four ways blaming other people, shaming ourselves, controlling,

320
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 3: and escaping. Uh you mentioned that.

321
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:19,400
Speaker 1: Escaping.

322
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 3: Hey, Yeah, So shame and escape are good friends. They

323
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 3: they tend to go together and and there tends to

324
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 3: be a pendulum swing there. And I do want to

325
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 3: point out, uh that often we talk about shame is

326
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 3: a feeling, but it is something more of something we do.

327
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 3: It's a way of uh, it's a posture towards yourself.

328
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 3: So if you think of your little kid self standing

329
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,520
Speaker 3: in front of you and your adult self kind of

330
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 3: shaking a finger, it's it's saying to yourself, uh, stuff

331
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,879
Speaker 3: that you would never say out loud someone else. And

332
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 3: when that becomes too unbearable and too painful, we swing

333
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 3: and go into that escape mode. Or that's a very

334
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 3: common second behavior to numb those horrible feelings because like

335
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:21,399
Speaker 3: you're saying, the the it's the beliefs and the underlying

336
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 3: emotions that are so unbearable. And then when we come

337
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 3: out of that numbing escape mode, we feel we beat

338
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,639
Speaker 3: ourselves up and we swing back into the shame. So

339
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 3: that's why those two tend to go together. But yeah,

340
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 3: it's a posture toward yourself. It's saying some it's saying

341
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 3: what you would never say to someone else out loud.

342
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,679
Speaker 2: And so what can we do? Do you feel like,

343
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,919
Speaker 2: is it? Is it repeating those things to ourselves that

344
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 2: we know are true. How do you counsel people on

345
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 2: interrupting those shame cycles?

346
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, so again this is restoration therapy related. We have

347
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 3: something called the four steps, and I know you have

348
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 3: sface similar and it's not rocket science. It's naming that

349
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 3: primary emotion. So again, those are gonna either be something

350
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 3: about who you are or something about your sense of safety.

351
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 3: Naming how you tend to react, so it's calling out

352
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 3: how you typically react. That's not helpful. And by the way,

353
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 3: none of us like these things about ourselves, like this

354
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 3: is not none of proud of our step two. But

355
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 3: that's that blame, shame, control, escape, And obviously there's a

356
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,360
Speaker 3: lot of specific behaviors in each of those four buckets.

357
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 3: It's naming the truth about that feeling. So that is

358
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 3: a very real feeling, and I might have really good

359
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 3: reasons for feeling that way, But is that the message

360
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 3: I'm gonna choose to claim moving forward? And then once

361
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 3: we have that truth identified, how can I practice that truth?

362
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 3: What does it look like right now? What is the

363
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 3: next right thing to do to practice that truth?

364
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 4: So?

365
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 3: If I typically blame, what does it look like to

366
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 3: nurture the others? And right now, if I typically shame,

367
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 3: what does it look like to be self valuing? To

368
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 3: value myself? Right now? If I'd typically a controller, what

369
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 3: does it look like to collaborate and have a balance

370
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 3: of give and take in my reships. And if I'm

371
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 3: typically an escaper, what does it look like to stay

372
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 3: reliably connected and see this through, whether that's to my

373
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 3: own emotional experience or in relationship.

374
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

375
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: So one of the other things I think when it

376
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 2: comes to to shame that you say, you have this

377
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 2: line in the book that I that absolutely love. You know,

378
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 2: when I think about my story, when I think about

379
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 2: the stories of people that I've talked to that are similar,

380
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 2: is we have to understand.

381
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 1: Grace, grace ourselves, grace from Jesus.

382
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: And yet you have this this quote and you say,

383
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 2: shame prevents us from celebrating grace. Can you explain that

384
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: and unpack that a little bit?

385
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 3: Sure, So, when we make a decision to shame ourselves,

386
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 3: we are essentially committing to being our own savior, and

387
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: we are therefore rejecting the gift of grace and the

388
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 3: saving grace that Jesus freely gives because we are committed

389
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 3: to earning our way with our own goodness. You know,

390
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 3: a common line that you'll hear people say is I

391
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 3: know I'm forgiven, but I can't forgive myself. Well, that's

392
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 3: a very shaming statement to ourselves, and that's a refusal

393
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 3: to receive the gift that that Jesus has given us.

394
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 3: And because again he gives us a choice, he doesn't

395
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 3: shove that gift into our hands, he doesn't force us

396
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 3: to enjoy it. And it's essentially committing to try to

397
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 3: save ourselves with our own goodness when we are committed

398
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 3: to making the choice to shame ourselves.

399
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: One other thing on shame, you talked about the four

400
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: fig leaves that.

401
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 3: We love to say that Yeah, so you know, I

402
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: mentioned the four ways that we tend to react to

403
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 3: our pain, and you see what I love is that.

404
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 3: Well I don't love it because it's it's painful, but

405
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 3: you see all of those behaviors right from the very beginning.

406
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 3: So Adam and Eve, you know, there's a lot of

407
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 3: blame going on in that story when pain and the world.

408
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 3: She did it. The serpent made me do it. And

409
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 3: then there's obviously shame when they recognize, oh, we're naked

410
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 3: and they try to cover themselves for the first time,

411
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 3: there's escape, they run away, they hide from God, whereas

412
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 3: before that was a very intimate relationship with God where

413
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 3: they felt fully themselves before him. And then there's you know, control,

414
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 3: and how can we we see that really early on

415
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 3: when they make the decision to disobey God in the

416
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 3: garden of Eden, where I'm going to be my own God.

417
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 3: I'm not going to be surrendered and submitted to God.

418
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to trust my own joy over the joy

419
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 3: that he offers. And so we see all four of

420
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: those things right from the beginning, and so it shouldn't

421
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 3: be a surprise to us that those are the four

422
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 3: things that we tend to employ to cover ourselves when

423
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 3: we're experiencing any kind of emotional pain.

424
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 2: So in my own book, I talk about the difference

425
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 2: between Judas and Peter and talking about the difference between

426
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: you know, godly godly grief and worldly worldly guilt. And

427
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: I read something in your book that I literally had

428
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: to then Luckily, as we're recording this, I'm in I'm

429
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 2: submitting final edits. I literally had to go back in

430
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: my book and I had to include this because you

431
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: that you had an insight here that I thought was

432
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: so good. And you talk about after the Resurrection, Jesus

433
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 2: appears to the fisherman and Peter and they're they're at

434
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 2: that they're at the sea Galilee, and Peter does something

435
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 2: that I never noticed until you pointed out. And you know,

436
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: Peter denied Jesus three times, like you talk about the shame,

437
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: and and I.

438
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: Had said, you know, we know that Peter.

439
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: Dealt with his his shame in a healthy way because

440
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 2: he went on to be Peter right like he went

441
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: on to But there's actually a better explanation. And you

442
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 2: point out the story. What explain what Peter does with

443
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: his shame after seeing the resurrect of Christ.

444
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 3: Yes, he runs to Jesus. And I love this juxtaposition

445
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: to what to Adam and Eve, like we were just

446
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 3: talking about, because in the Garden of Eden, when Adam

447
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: and Eve sin and they're hiding and they're covering themselves,

448
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 3: Jesus God's question to them is not how could you?

449
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 3: His question to them is where are you? He pursues them,

450
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 3: and so Peter recognizes this, he runs toward Christ. He's

451
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: not shaming himself. He's an open recipient of Jesus's grace

452
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: and he is all about receiving that. And I think

453
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 3: that that's that's the difference between condemnation and conviction too.

454
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 3: Rite conviction has this turning toward Christ where we will

455
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 3: be redeemed and transformed. And and shame is is the

456
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: voice of the accuser and one of condemnation. And that

457
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: is not what the voice of Christ sounds like in

458
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: our lives.

459
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's so so good, you know, Like, and

460
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: I literally had this mind's eye, you know, I'm playing this,

461
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: and I think that, Yeah, as I was looking at

462
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: the es V the way that it talks about, you know,

463
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: I mean, just this picture of Peter. I mean, that's

464
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: the first time you encountered Christ since he denied them,

465
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And and he sees Jesus

466
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: and whereas Judas goes away, right, and it leads to death, Ye,

467
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: Peter runs toward and it leads to life. And them's

468
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: Peter being Peter.

469
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: Right.

470
00:29:54,360 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you uh, I want to switch gears for a

471
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: minute here. I think you talk about your own propensity

472
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: to catastrophize. And if there's one thing, if there's a

473
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: there's a an adjective to describe some of my own thinking.

474
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: I've used that one a lot, right, is that I

475
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: you know, I joke in my first book that like

476
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: my anxiety my OCD. I'm one of the only people

477
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: who can get like a cut on my finger and

478
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: within three hours I have cancer.

479
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. It's just like, it's just

480
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: like and so.

481
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 2: But you talk about I guess I never saw this

482
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:42,479
Speaker 2: catastrophizing as as a coping mechanism, and that was a

483
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: really helpful insight to mean, And I think it could

484
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 2: be for people listening talk about catastrophizing as a coping mechanism.

485
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 3: Yeah. So it's a fancy form of control in that

486
00:30:55,440 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 3: we are trying to become invulnerable to surprise or a

487
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: bad outcome by getting ahead of it and anticipating the

488
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: worst case scenario. So a related form would be just pessimism,

489
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: holding a lack of hope for the future. Catastrophizing probably

490
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 3: takes that a step further and really throws gasoline on

491
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 3: the worst case scenario. Cynicism is a similar but related,

492
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 3: different but related coping mechanism where we hold we doubt

493
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 3: other people's motives and hold a lack of belief in

494
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 3: other people, including God. But it's basically your brain trying

495
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 3: to prepare you for the worst case scenario, thinking that

496
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 3: it will take the sting out of that outcome should

497
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 3: it happen. But here's the reality, and our research is

498
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 3: pretty clear on this. Even if, and that's a big if,

499
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: even if that worst case scenario should happen, having anticipate

500
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 3: in it and prepared for it actually doesn't lessen the

501
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 3: pain of that outcome if it should come to happen.

502
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 3: So what you will do is dull all the delight

503
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: in the meantime, rob yourself of the hope and joy

504
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 3: as you prepare, you know, as you in the present moment,

505
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 3: and you will rob yourself of all of those good

506
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 3: things because you're anticipating the worst case scenario and you

507
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: won't protect yourself at all. So that that was a

508
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: good wake up call for me. Because controllers, I'll raise

509
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 3: my hand here. We tend to think that we're being

510
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 3: responsible and prudent. And you know, a lot of people

511
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 3: call themselves realists. I'm not a pessimist. I'm just a realist. No,

512
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 3: you're not. You're trying to anticipate and become invulnerable to

513
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 3: those unexpected and hard outcomes and instead of waiting with

514
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 3: hope to see what might God do.

515
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: So I want to turn that then to addiction, right

516
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: because I think and I know I'd mentioned this earlier,

517
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: but you know, there's a lot of catastrophizing that I

518
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 2: think goes on in our minds when we're like trying

519
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: to imagine what life is like without alcohol. I'm not

520
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: going to be able to do this. It's going to

521
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: look like this, it's going to be this. I'm going

522
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: to be this way, and actually i'd be better. I'm

523
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: better drinking because otherwise I'm going to do this as

524
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: as as as a result of that. So I think,

525
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 2: specifically when it comes to addiction, how do we how

526
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: do we take that catastrophizing and put it to bed.

527
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 3: Hmm, well, I think being able to speak truth to

528
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 3: whatever the underlying feeling is. So anytime you see something

529
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 3: in those four categories blame, shame, control, escape, those things

530
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 3: do not happen in a vacuum. They are always rooted

531
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: in pain, but they're often the thing we're gonna see first,

532
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: because if you think about an iceberg, it's the part

533
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 3: of the iceberg that's above the waterline, So that's okay.

534
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 3: It takes a while to recognize those primary emotions when

535
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,479
Speaker 3: they're happening before those reactions show up. But being able

536
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 3: to say ah, what am I feeling? I must be

537
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 3: feeling something about myself or about my circumstances. So am

538
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 3: I fearing failure? Am I feeling vulnerable because I haven't

539
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 3: done life sober? And you know, and that feels really scary?

540
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 3: And then being able to to that feeling. And that's

541
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 3: important because if we don't know what the specific pain

542
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 3: we're experiencing is, we might be speaking very true words,

543
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 3: but they're not targeting the pain we're experiencing. So, for instance,

544
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 3: if I am feeling powerless or hopeless about the future,

545
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 3: and I tell myself that I am deeply loved and valued,

546
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 3: well it is true, I'm deeply loved and valued, but

547
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 3: it's not speaking to the pain that's driving the catastrophizing

548
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: around life without drinking or whatever you're catastrophizing about. So

549
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 3: making being able to name the pain that's driving that

550
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 3: catastrophizing is really important because we got to make sure

551
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 3: we're speaking to the right the right thing.

552
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: So you said something there, You said a word there

553
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: that I want hone in on and and use it

554
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: to unpack another topic you can talk about. You talked

555
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 2: about maybe a fear of vulnerability. You know, one of

556
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: my four steps. I talk about radical vulnerability, which which

557
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 2: is really just true confession. Right, it's true confession that's

558
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: about It's not it's not just you know, giving a

559
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: little bit like well, you know, I'm struggling with this.

560
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: It's like, no, here's what I'm doing, right, And and

561
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 2: so you have this, you have this quote in the book.

562
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 2: You say, confession and apology feel scary when you've told

563
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: yourself you're only as good as your last performance. But

564
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: there was no other way through the other side for

565
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: this friendship. And you're talking about this this story, this

566
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: very I mean, I felt secondhand embarrassment for you in

567
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: this in this story, So maybe tell you know, you

568
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: could tell a quick version of that story and then

569
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: the power that you found in in in confession and

570
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 2: radical vulnerability.

571
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, so the quick backstory here and you can

572
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: read more details in the book if you're curious. But

573
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 3: I was really struggling with one of my friends and

574
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 3: I sent a text while I was at her house

575
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 3: to another friend like please pray for me. I am

576
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 3: really struggling in this friendship and it's hard to be

577
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 3: here right now. And I accidentally sent it to the

578
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 3: friend whose house I was out O bad. So I

579
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 3: had no choice but to confess.

580
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 2: There was no unsnd back, there no unsend.

581
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, did I did? I wish there was. But

582
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: it also forced me to have what I should have

583
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 3: done in the first place, and brought it to her

584
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 3: and confessed how I was feeling. But I'll so you

585
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 3: know now I was confessing being gossiping and and not

586
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 3: bringing it to her and finding it easier to talk

587
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 3: to someone else about it. And gossip is false intimacy, falseility.

588
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 3: It's a way of feeling close to someone without actually

589
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,800
Speaker 3: having it cost you anything.

590
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 2: Interesting I've never heard. That's a great little nugget.

591
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's it's pretty. And once you start to

592
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 3: see it that way, you'll see a lot of how

593
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 3: we're all just attempting, making an attempt at intimacy without

594
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:45,879
Speaker 3: actually having it.

595
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 4: Wow.

596
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: So good.

597
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I fully participated in that. And you know,

598
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 3: when you are used to so my thing is I

599
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 3: can try with performance. That's how I tend to protect

600
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 3: myself from that feeling of inadequacy, like I explained earlier,

601
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 3: And when performance is your thing, your value and your

602
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 3: identity is only as good as your last performance, and

603
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 3: so confession is scary because you're owning, Oh, I messed up.

604
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 3: This was a huge crack in the facade I work

605
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 3: really hard on every day when I'm feeling that inadequacy.

606
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: And so in that moment, basically I was cracked open

607
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 3: and discovered it. Actually, confession and being able to own

608
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 3: my imperfection was very freeing and obviously in a situation

609
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 3: where I've done something wrong, you know, also having that

610
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 3: accompanied by I'm going to commit to doing this differently

611
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 3: and here's where I need to grow. Vulnerability about what

612
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 3: we're doing wrong is just the first step to you know,

613
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 3: repent and turn away from the way that we tend

614
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 3: to do things. So it was a healing and freeing moment,

615
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 3: but I wish I had gotten there a different way,

616
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 3: and I.

617
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: Think that's important for you know, I know there's probably

618
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,240
Speaker 2: some people listening to this who you're You're more driven

619
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 2: by performance than some other people, right, and so you

620
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: know you're listening to this and you're the person who

621
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 2: no one knows you have a problem. And for a

622
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 2: long time that was me, right, you know, no one

623
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 2: knows you're hiding it so freaking well. Yeah, and so

624
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 2: the idea of confession and vulnerability for them is maybe

625
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 2: even more scary than the person who's like, yeah, I'm

626
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: just out loud and about it and everyone knows it, right,

627
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 2: And so what is your encouragement to that person like yourself?

628
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 2: You know, what have you then come to experience, not

629
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 2: just in that situation, but what can you tell that

630
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: person who does struggle with that performance about what's on

631
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: the other side of that confession and vulnerability?

632
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 3: Oh so much freedom? See, you know that that is

633
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 3: the beginning of being able to you know, let God

634
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 3: into the feelings you actually have, instead of feeling like

635
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 3: you have to have the perfect feelings for God and

636
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 3: letting him love you where you are and loving you

637
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 3: too much to let you stay there. But yeah, performance

638
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 3: just keeps you stuck, just like anything we do in

639
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 3: that blame, shame, control, escape framework. And that's another good

640
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 3: point I was, or an important point to bring up

641
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 3: when we talk about blame, shame, control and escape. For

642
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 3: a long time, I was secretly out of my reactivity

643
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 3: because I thought, isn't everyone just so grateful for my

644
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 3: wonderful performance and my desire to win them over and

645
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 3: my high expectations of myself and isn't that so much better?

646
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 3: So so franchious of me? But isn't that so much

647
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 3: better than you know, somebody who rages in their pain.

648
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 3: And certainly those four things have different consequences, different behaviors

649
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 3: in each of those four categories. The consequences are different physically, However,

650
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 3: all four of those things are equally relationally destructive. What

651
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 3: I do when I perform is no better in it

652
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 3: equally destroys my connection with myself, God and other people.

653
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 3: Just like someone who rages in their pain or someone

654
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 3: who numbs out in their pain, they're all for equally

655
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 3: relationally destructive. So I just want to point that out

656
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 3: because our culture really tends to celebrate, especially controllers, that perfectionism,

657
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 3: those performers, the people who seemingly have it all together,

658
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 3: very often very high achievers. And anything we do in

659
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 3: our pain is destructive. There's no better menu option there.

660
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 2: That's that's such a great reminder. I appreciate you pointing

661
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 2: that out, and I think it comes on the heels

662
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: of there's there's something else you pointed out that was

663
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,439
Speaker 2: really convicting to me in in the book, and and

664
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: I have to be careful about this, uh Now, that

665
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 2: I'm on the other side of of of you know,

666
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 2: the depths of my struggle, and that is being careful

667
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 2: to appreciate the pain, but not in a sense like.

668
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: Celebrate it.

669
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 2: And you know so you have the science says I

670
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: will never call the pain itself good. God is not

671
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: the author of our suffering, and I don't believe he

672
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,399
Speaker 2: asks us to see it that way. Life doesn't have

673
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 2: to be hard to be holy. But I've learned to

674
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 2: let pain mold me into something new. And then you say,

675
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: my place of brokenness has become my place of place

676
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: of restoration. How do we appreciate the pain without ascribing

677
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:30,919
Speaker 2: it to God?

678
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: Right?

679
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: Like now, I have to be careful and make clear

680
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 2: like God allows our pain and suffering, he doesn't cause it.

681
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 4: Right, So how do we how do we how do

682
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 4: we strike that right balance? I think, well, in a

683
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 4: couple different ways. I think being able to appreciate how

684
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 4: God has used it. He doesn't waste it, but there's

685
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 4: a respe responsibility to be a good steward of our pain.

686
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 4: That's a phrase I've really been honing in on a

687
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 4: lot recently, because I think it swings between it's the

688
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 4: third option and two cultural extremes that we tend to

689
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 4: swing between when it comes to our emotions.

690
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 3: One is sort of the mind over matter. Feelings don't

691
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 3: matter at all, Just tell me what to do and

692
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 3: do it well. We missed out on a lot of understanding, compassion, connection,

693
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 3: and information when we just ignore our emotional experience. Our

694
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 3: emotional world absolutely needs to have a seat at the table,

695
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 3: but on the other extreme, it cannot dictate the dinner conversation.

696
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 3: Is what I often say, like, it needs a seat

697
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 3: at the table, but it's not going to dominate the conversation.

698
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 3: And that's where I feel like we are a little

699
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 3: bit culturally today. If I feel something, it is the

700
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 3: most real thing about me is where you have the

701
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of my truth instead of truth,

702
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 3: or a lot of destructive entitlement is born out of

703
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 3: this place that I have this feeling, and I have

704
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 3: good reasons for feeling it. So therefore whatever I do

705
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 3: out of this place is justified. Yes, And that's just

706
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 3: destructive entitlement. That is not stewarting our feelings well. So

707
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 3: stewarting them well is being able to name them, know

708
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 3: call out. How we tend to protect ourselves from them

709
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 3: or react to them and say, Okay, is that the

710
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 3: message I am going to carry forward? Or is the

711
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 3: truth the message I'm going to carry forward? And then

712
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 3: how can I act on that? So being honest about

713
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 3: our feelings but also recognizing that just like we need

714
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 3: to be a good steward of our time, talent, and treasure,

715
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 3: we got to be a good steward of this feeling.

716
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 3: And they're not our faults. We have good reasons for

717
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 3: feeling the things we do, but they are our responsibility.

718
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

719
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 2: If you've brought up something I mean, throughout this entire

720
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 2: time together that I think is important. You know that

721
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 2: the naming aspect, right, and so you know, uh, we've

722
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: had Allison Cook on this podcast and about that especially yes, yes,

723
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,959
Speaker 2: and you know the numbing versus naming and in her book,

724
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: I shouldn't feel this way and I love that, and

725
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 2: so it's such a good reminder and I just think

726
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 2: it's it's helpful to hear it, you know from someone else, right,

727
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 2: that that that the naming is so important. And I

728
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 2: talked about in in my first book Finding Rest that

729
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 2: like naming something gives you power over it.

730
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know and.

731
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 2: We see that from from Judeo Christian you know, values

732
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: right like you give you you know, we were told

733
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 2: to name the animals right right, and and that showed

734
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 2: a dominion over them. And so when we name what's

735
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 2: going on, uh, we we gain power over something. I

736
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 2: just think is really important to call that out that

737
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 2: you've been talking about that and I think that's that's

738
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 2: that's really great. The last thing, the last question I

739
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: want to ask you is you've talked about how your heartbreak,

740
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: your pain, has given you a different relationship with God.

741
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 2: You say that there's an intimacy between the two of

742
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 2: us that's been forged from heartache. And I think there

743
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 2: are a lot of people who even you know, even

744
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 2: even though I've gotten through the kind of the throes

745
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 2: of my addiction and and I'm in a great place, like,

746
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 2: there are still times, you know, where I sit there

747
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 2: and be like, oh, I wish I didn't have to

748
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 2: go through that, you know, or or or even sometimes

749
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 2: you know, I'll be honest, I'll look at so I'll

750
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 2: look at someone having a director back. I wish I

751
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 2: could be that guy, Like I wish I could have

752
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 2: a healthy relationship with alcohol and yet I remind I

753
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 2: look at what has come of this, and I say,

754
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 2: I just my relationship with the Lord would not be

755
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 2: what it is without this, like it has thrown. You know,

756
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: there's the quote from Charles Spurgeon, like I've learned to

757
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: kiss the waves that are against the.

758
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 1: Rock of ages.

759
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 3: Yes, one of my favorites.

760
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 2: Yes, So I would love to hear you kind of

761
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 2: unpack and describe what has your heartache, you know that quote.

762
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 2: There's an intimacy between the two of us that's been

763
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 2: forged from heartache. Can you just can you unpack what

764
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 2: you've learned from your pain?

765
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 3: Sure? And this is bringing us full circle, I think

766
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 3: going through that season of the sudden move and all

767
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 3: those miscarriages and other heartaches we experienced in that season.

768
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 3: You know, of course, it's not the story I would

769
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 3: have written for myself had God given me the pent.

770
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 3: And I can see where it absolutely was the thing

771
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: that pulled my fingers off of entitlements and comforts, like

772
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 3: my own performance, like my own perfectionism, like the approval

773
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:30,240
Speaker 3: of others, the need to prove my identity and value

774
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 3: through different opportunities or accolades. And you know, I would

775
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 3: love to say that I would have let go of

776
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 3: those things on my own and recognize the freedom and

777
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 3: Christ is the better way. But I can't say that

778
00:50:52,760 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 3: I think that pain. Confronting that pain really shine, you know,

779
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:08,439
Speaker 3: shone a light shine to light on what Augustine would

780
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 3: call disordered loves. You know, very good things in my heart,

781
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 3: you know gifts. No one would fault me for wanting

782
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 3: or loving. But we're standing awkwardly in the wrong position

783
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 3: in my heart. And when you confront pain, you're going

784
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 3: to feel the disorganized loves in your soul because that

785
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 3: you will discover that they have promised a lot more

786
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 3: than they can deliver on when life gets hard. They

787
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,280
Speaker 3: do not bring the peace and joy that only Christ

788
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 3: can give. And so that's what that hard season gave me.

789
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 3: It reorganized what I love, and it allowed me to

790
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:57,919
Speaker 3: receive Christ into places where I was adding to him.

791
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 3: I've always, I've always, I've been a believer since I

792
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 3: was a young girl. I've had a relationship with Jesus

793
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 3: my whole life, and yet those were the things I

794
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 3: tended to add to Christ for my value and safety,

795
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 3: and they just fell off when I encountered that pain.

796
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 3: And I'm really grateful because Christ is a lot better

797
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 3: in that position than any of those other gifts.

798
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 2: What a great way to end our time together because

799
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:38,399
Speaker 2: I think not surprisingly, you know, I talk about in confessions,

800
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: misordered is disordered?

801
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 3: Yes?

802
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: Is that?

803
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 2: And then you know, so you can go through the

804
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,720
Speaker 2: medical definition, you know whatever.

805
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, And.

806
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 2: I quote I have that quote from Augustine in the

807
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 2: book is that when we put anything above Jesus, it

808
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 2: is disordered, right, and so that that is miss you know,

809
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 2: misordered is disordered, And so I love that you drew

810
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 2: that out absolutely absolutely. If people, Nicole want to go

811
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 2: grab your book, if they want to invite you to speak,

812
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 2: if they want to you know, I know at one

813
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 2: point you were doing some retreats. But if they just

814
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,479
Speaker 2: want to keep up with you and what you're doing,

815
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 2: where should they go?

816
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 3: Sure, So my website is a great place to find

817
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 3: me Nicole Zizowski dot com.

818
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 1: I'll include the link and I C O L E

819
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: Z A.

820
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 3: S O W s k I dot com. I hang

821
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 3: out on Instagram the most with social media. I'm just

822
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 3: at Nicole Zazowski there. I do have a new Bible

823
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 3: study that continues the conversation in what if It's Wonderful,

824
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 3: which is the book we've been talking about and that

825
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 3: Bible Studies called Daring Joy, and it explores the stories

826
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 3: of six women in the Bible who each child and

827
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 3: just in a different aspect of joy and again continues

828
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 3: the conversation in what if It's Wonderful, which is mostly

829
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 3: what John and I have been talking about today.

830
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 2: Well, Nicole, I really appreciate what if It's Wonderful. I

831
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 2: appreciate the work that you are doing. Like I said,

832
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 2: I'm going to be including what If It's Wonderful as

833
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 2: a resource for people who want to go deeper in

834
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 2: the topics that I bring up in confessions. So thank

835
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 2: you so much for your time. Thank you for what

836
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 2: you're doing. We really appreciate it.

837
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 3: I so appreciate being here. Thank you.

838
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 2: We can think and act our way to a new feeling.

839
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 2: We cannot feel our way to a new way of

840
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,720
Speaker 2: thinking and acting. Oh my goodness, Like I needed that, guys,

841
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 2: I needed that, did you?

842
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,720
Speaker 1: Because here is the truth.

843
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 2: I can find myself and have found myself stuck in

844
00:54:55,520 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 2: some cycles, some thought cycles, especially lately, and boy, I

845
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 2: here's the thing. Like it is true that you are

846
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: feeling a certain way. Right, It does not mean that

847
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 2: those feelings align with truth. And I think we forget

848
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 2: that even subconsciously, right, because I think sometimes we get defensive, like,

849
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 2: what do you mean, Yeah, I'm feeling that way. You know,

850
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 2: I heard my wife say something. I heard my spouse

851
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,720
Speaker 2: or my husband say something. Yes, I'm feeling that way. Yeah,

852
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 2: it is true you are feeling that way. But it

853
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 2: does not mean that those feelings are aligned with truth.

854
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 2: If your spouse did not intend to hurt you, you

855
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 2: can still be hurt, but it doesn't mean that it aligns.

856
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 1: With the truth of the intent. And I think we

857
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: just we need to remember that.

858
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 2: And so when Nicole talks about thinking and acting our

859
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 2: way to new feelings, we have to embrace. That reminds

860
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 2: me my friend, doctor Lee Warren is coming out with

861
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 2: a book on something he called self brain surgery. He's

862
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 2: gonna be talking about this in the spring. Is gonna

863
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 2: be coming on this podcast to talk about it as well.

864
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 2: But the idea is that we can perform self brain surgery,

865
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 2: and it's what science is doing to catch up to scripture.

866
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 2: It's the renewing of our mind. And so I think

867
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 2: what Nicole talked about there. What doctor Lee Warren is

868
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 2: going to be talking about coming up on the podcast

869
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 2: in a couple months is going to be so important.

870
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: If you needed that today, let me know. You can

871
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,520
Speaker 2: go to Christian Alcoholic dot com Christian Alcoholic dot com.

872
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 2: In there you can do a variety of things, you

873
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 2: can fail at a form and let me know what

874
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 2: you think. Listen, even though we just passed one hundred

875
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 2: thousand dollars downloads, I still read all the messages you

876
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 2: send me. I think I respond to most of them,

877
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 2: and if I haven't, it's just been gross oversight or

878
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 2: I should say accidental oversight on my part, not intentional.

879
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 1: And so let me know what you think about this episode.

880
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 2: You can also at Christian Alcoholic dot com purchase the

881
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: book Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic still thirty percent off

882
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 2: through the publisher, and there's also.

883
00:56:58,239 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 1: Some bonuses you can get there.

884
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 2: You can see I'm speaking, you can request for me

885
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 2: to speak, and real quickly, just let me say this,

886
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,760
Speaker 2: like I have the opportunity to speak at an event

887
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 2: this week, and it is it just reminded me how

888
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 2: much life that I get personally, and I think when

889
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:19,959
Speaker 2: we're walking in our purpose and calling. We get life

890
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 2: from things, and so I just want to let you

891
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 2: know that if you go on my website and you

892
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 2: fill out a form to request that I come speak,

893
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 2: don't think that that is a you know, tens of

894
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 2: thousand dollars endeavor, right, I make things work for you,

895
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 2: and so I work with all types of budgets. You

896
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 2: can just ask people where I've spoken about that. So

897
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 2: if you want me to come speak to your church,

898
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 2: your small group, you know, your conference, your whatever, just

899
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 2: go to Christian Alcoholic dot com and there on the

900
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 2: on the web site you will find a place to

901
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 2: request me to come speak. And I would love to

902
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 2: do that because it's what the what's what God has

903
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 2: called me to do. It's what the Lord has told

904
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 2: me to do. And I get a lot of life

905
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 2: in meeting you and talking with you. So please go

906
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 2: do that. Once again, thank you to our partner Life

907
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 2: audio dot com. We would not have surpassed one hundred

908
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 2: thousand downloads without Life Audio, who has believed in this

909
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 2: podcast from the beginning. So go check out their other podcasts.

910
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 2: We will have a podcast next week even though it

911
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 2: is Christmas Eve, and so I just want to let

912
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 2: you know that I have plenty of stuff ready to go,

913
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 2: and the truth is that we still need the Gospel.

914
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 2: We still need these truths that we talk about on

915
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 2: this podcast at Christmas time, and especially at Christmas times,

916
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 2: because I think it can be lonely. I think it

917
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 2: can be emotionally draining. There can be issues with family,

918
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 2: issues with budgets that just make us feel like I've

919
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 2: been feeling right, which is why I needed this conversation

920
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 2: with the goal.

921
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,800
Speaker 1: So love you all. We will see you next week.