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Speaker 1: Life audio. What do you think makes his writing? His working?

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Speaker 2: The Nephelene? What is that all about? The rough memes?

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Speaker 2: What is that all about?

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Speaker 3: Demons, angels, all that kind of stuff. I think people have,

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Speaker 3: whether they admit it or not, a deep interest in

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Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. And here comes this guy who.

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Speaker 2: Is not some flaky nutcase.

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Speaker 3: He's a guy with a PhD in ancient Near Eastern

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Speaker 3: studies and the Old Testament and has brought these two

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Speaker 3: things together and has written in.

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Speaker 2: A clear, accessible way. Has been captivating, I think, to

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Speaker 2: a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: And it doesn't hurt that he's in social media extensively.

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Speaker 1: Michael Heiser is one of the most influential theologians and

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Speaker 1: Christian writers over the past two decades. His book The

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Speaker 1: Unseen Realm has sold hundreds of thousands of copies and

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Speaker 1: was recently released as a special ten year update with

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Speaker 1: some added kind of commentary and thoughts from him. Our

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Speaker 1: guest today, Doctor Clint Arnold is one of the leading

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Speaker 1: experts on spiritual warfare. You're a colleague of mine here

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Speaker 1: at Talbot. You've written multiple books on spiritual warfare, an

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Speaker 1: entire commentary on Colostions, which deals with Spiritual Warfare. I

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Speaker 1: asked you a while ago, I said, hey, would you

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Speaker 1: be able to weigh in, because there's a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of people who look at you kind of as like

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Speaker 1: the guy on Spiritual Warfare. We want to know what

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Speaker 1: doctor Clint Arnold thinks about Michael Heiser's works. You've been

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Speaker 1: reading a lot of this and you agreed to do it.

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Speaker 1: So thanks for your prep and thanks for joining me

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Speaker 1: in studio.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a pleasure to be back with you.

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Speaker 1: Sean well Good, I've been looking forward to this. Tell

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Speaker 1: me how kind of when you first encountered Michael Heiser

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Speaker 1: and did you ever meet him personally?

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Speaker 3: No, I never met him personally. I sure wish I

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Speaker 3: would have. I wish the Lord hadn't taken him so soon.

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Speaker 3: But I was serving as dean of Talbot and so

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Speaker 3: deeply immersed in academic administration for ten years. And that

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Speaker 3: was between twenty twelve and twenty twenty two, and that

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Speaker 3: was the period that Heiser was doing all of his writing,

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Speaker 3: that's right, And while he was writing in Spiritual Warfare,

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Speaker 3: I was working on budgets and accreditation and all of that.

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Speaker 1: Kind of thank you for that. By the way, I came.

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Speaker 3: Out of from under my rock and rejoined the faculty

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two, and now I'm back teaching. Spiritual

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Speaker 3: Warfare is one of the classes that I teach. And

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Speaker 3: guess what everybody is asking me about?

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Speaker 1: Really, that's one of the top things. O.

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Speaker 3: People ask me all the time. What do you think

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Speaker 3: of Heiser's work? What do you think of the Divine

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Speaker 3: Council worldview? And all these different things? So, I mean

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Speaker 3: I have immersed myself in Heiser to try to understand

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Speaker 3: from within what he is saying and amazing.

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Speaker 1: Now you said before you have some substantial disagreements with him.

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Speaker 1: We will get to that. But from someone who's read

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Speaker 1: in Spiritual Warfare and obviously a New Testament, what do

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Speaker 1: you think makes his writing his work?

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Speaker 2: Unit?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think people have an innate interest in stuff

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Speaker 3: that is strange and weird and unusual. So like, what

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Speaker 3: is it with these sons of God that cohabited with

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Speaker 3: the daughters of women, the daughters of men Genesis six,

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Speaker 3: and then the nephel Em what is that all about?

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Speaker 3: The rougha eim? What is that all about? Demons, angels?

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Speaker 3: All that kind of stuff. I think people have, whether

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Speaker 3: they admit it or not a deep interest in that

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Speaker 3: kind of stuff. And here comes this guy.

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Speaker 2: Who is.

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Speaker 3: Not some flaky nutcase. He's a guy with a PhD

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Speaker 3: in Ancient Near Eastern studies an Old Testament and just

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Speaker 3: seems very reasonable and rational and has done in depth

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Speaker 3: research on all of this and has brought these two

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Speaker 3: things together and has written in a clear, accessible way

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Speaker 3: that has been captivating, I think to a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: And it doesn't hurt that he's in social media extensively

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Speaker 3: and has done numerous broad podcasts and the like.

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Speaker 1: And I think what draws people to him is he's

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Speaker 1: just unashamed about his supernatural worldview. He doesn't apologize, he

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Speaker 1: doesn't excuse it. Rather than saying, oh, yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: piece of what we believe, it's like he leans in

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Speaker 1: and goes, oh yeah, this is the heart of it.

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Speaker 1: And if you're a follow of Jesus, you should too.

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Speaker 1: I think that's like jarring to some people because naturalism,

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Speaker 1: as you talk about in your books has kind of

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Speaker 1: infiltrated the church in many ways. I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of his writings have pointed out how much of a

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Speaker 1: stronghold that has and rekindled this supernatural interest is much

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Speaker 1: or more than anybody. Now you might have answered this.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask you from where why you

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Speaker 1: think he's so popular? And it could be because of

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Speaker 1: he's used social media, he's a great writer, the interest

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Speaker 1: of what he's talking about anything else? Why you think

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Speaker 1: so many people are asking you about his thoughts.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've done some writing on spiritual warfare myself. You know,

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Speaker 3: we've talked about a couple of things, and it goes

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Speaker 3: way back. I wrote my first book on spiritual warfare,

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Speaker 3: called Powers of Darkness, back in nineteen ninety two for

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Speaker 3: Innivarsity Press, and followed that up with a book of

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Speaker 3: five years later called Three Crucial Questions about Spiritual Warfare.

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Speaker 2: The latter book.

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Speaker 3: In particular has served as a has been adopted by

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Speaker 3: as a textbook for many seminaries in Christian universities.

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Speaker 2: So that's one of the.

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Speaker 3: Reasons I think people are interested in what I have

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Speaker 3: to say on it. And they know I'm a New

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Speaker 3: Testament scholar, a biblical scholar, and it's like, what would

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Speaker 3: a Biblical scholar have to say about these things?

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Speaker 1: And you've specialized in Ephesians and Colostions, which really intersects

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Speaker 1: with a lot of these ideas that DI find counsel

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Speaker 1: and spiritual warfare. So we're gonna get into some of

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Speaker 1: your take on Deuteronomy, like these passes in Jerimi thirty

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Speaker 1: two and in Psalms eighty two. But what have you

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Speaker 1: learned from Heiser and where's some areas that you agree

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Speaker 1: with him?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Well, I've learned a lot from Michael Heiser. I've really

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Speaker 3: benefited from reading. I've read in depth two of his works,

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Speaker 3: The Unseen Realm and a more recent book called Demons

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Speaker 3: that he writes where he clarifies a lot of things

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Speaker 3: that were already in the Unseen Realm, And as I've

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Speaker 3: read through them, what I've grown to appreciate most, I

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Speaker 3: think is his incredible expertise in ancient Near East. He's

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Speaker 3: opened my eyes up to how Eugartic texts from northwest

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Speaker 3: Mesopotamia really help us understand the world of the Bible

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Speaker 3: at that time. Insights about Bashan up.

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Speaker 2: In the north, and all these sorts of.

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Speaker 3: Things very very fascinating. I also would say that I

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Speaker 3: have a fundamental agreement with him on the Divine Council worldview.

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Speaker 3: So Deuteronomy thirty two, I really think he's right on

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Speaker 3: in that take on that that there is a divine

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Speaker 3: council that is populated by what we might call angels,

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Speaker 3: and that it has been with us since the beginning.

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Speaker 3: And I think he's exactly.

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Speaker 2: Right in what he's saying about the divine council.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, that's so interesting. Reading him was the first

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Speaker 1: time I read that, and the first time like this

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Speaker 1: is polytheism, this is haresy, and I'm like wait, slow down.

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Speaker 1: And then the more I read it was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is brilliant and insightful. So I'm fat, go ahead,

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Speaker 1: you read. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was just going to jump in and say, when

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Speaker 3: I wrote my nineteen ninety two book, the Heiser's not

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Speaker 3: the first to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, he doesn't claim to be.

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Speaker 3: And when I wrote my nineteen ninety two book, I

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Speaker 3: went in print agreeing with that.

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Speaker 1: Oh it is.

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Speaker 3: So it's something that I'd already thought through and had

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Speaker 3: read conclusion that that's probably the best way of understanding

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Speaker 3: Deuteronomy thirty two as well as Psalm eighty two. But

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Speaker 3: I said in that book, I said that, but the

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Speaker 3: Bible just really doesn't say much about it. Heiser corrected

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Speaker 3: me on.

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Speaker 1: That ape Oh wow, that's a big deal.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot more in the Bible on that, in

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Speaker 3: the Hebrew Bible than I'd ever realized, and he's brought

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Speaker 3: that out well.

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Speaker 1: So my experience with Heiser's he's brought attention to me

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Speaker 1: to stuff that apparently, like you said, scholars have been

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Speaker 1: talking about. So I think that's some of his popularity,

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Speaker 1: that these are not all new, but he's bringing it

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Speaker 1: together in a new way. He's framing it uniquely. He's

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Speaker 1: just a wonderful writer in our cultural moment. It seems

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Speaker 1: to me like you put all those threads together, and

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Speaker 1: that helps explain some of his popularity. Amongst other things,

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Speaker 1: how much how much of what you're reading him is

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Speaker 1: like new to you versus you already agreed with the

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Speaker 1: Dourono thirty two worldview in nineteen ninety two. How much

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Speaker 1: of it was new?

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Speaker 3: There was quite a bit that was new to me

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Speaker 3: as we've gone through. I mean, in his book The

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Speaker 3: Unseen Realm, he goes from Genesis to Revelations unpacking this

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Speaker 3: Divine Council worldview, and text after text popped up that

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Speaker 3: I never thought about it through that lens, and so

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Speaker 3: that was I found it incredibly helpful.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so that's great. So he has this Studonomi thirty

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Speaker 1: two worldview, which we'll get to, but really drew some

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Speaker 1: connections of other stuff in the Bible that maybe webbed

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Speaker 1: it together for you in a way you hadn't seen

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Speaker 1: those connections before. Okay, that's that's fair. What's the basic

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Speaker 1: premise of the unseen realm? What is he getting at

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Speaker 1: and arguing for?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think this subtitle captures it pretty well. He says,

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Speaker 3: recovering the supernatural worldview of the Bible. And I think

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Speaker 3: one of the things that we underestimate how powerful it

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Speaker 3: has been in Western culture is what you mentioned earlier

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Speaker 3: at the outset scientific naturalism, and whether we acknowledge it

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Speaker 3: or not, it has skewed the way we look at

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Speaker 3: the Bible. And I think Heiser has done a great

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Speaker 3: job of calling us back to Hey, let's set the

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Speaker 3: Bible in its ancient near Eastern context. Let's strip away

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Speaker 3: the modern Western scientific naturalistic worldview, and recognize the Bible

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Speaker 3: as a book that has an awful lot to say

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Speaker 3: about the supernatural realm. And so he's unpacked that he's

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Speaker 3: helped us better understand it and helped us understand some

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Speaker 3: of the implications of that.

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Speaker 1: I love that, and when it's just kind of the

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Speaker 1: modern Western mindset. There's a few layers of that. There's

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Speaker 1: the individualism we look at things as opposed to a

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Speaker 1: group context. But the main thing is just explaining things

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Speaker 1: away scientifically and naturalistically, which you argue in your books

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Speaker 1: has really infused the church more than we realize. Heiser's like,

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Speaker 1: let's go back to the text and the culture in

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Speaker 1: which it was written, the people it was written to.

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Speaker 1: Let's take our cues there. That's what I think is

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Speaker 1: so unique to us that we miss that culture that

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Speaker 1: it's actually written in. Okay, all right, so let's jump

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Speaker 1: in to some of the content here. So what is

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Speaker 1: the household of God? And do you agree with Heiser

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Speaker 1: that Psalm eighty two and Job thirty eight four through

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Speaker 1: seven teaches that Yahweh presides over an assembly of non

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Speaker 1: angelic eloheim who are putting thority over the nations. Now

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Speaker 1: that's a loaded question. Basically, the question is do you

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Speaker 1: agree with that Heiser has this idea that you have

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Speaker 1: Yahweh and it presides over this assembly of beings. But

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Speaker 1: they're not just angels. They seem to be. Additionally, non angelic,

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Speaker 1: they're ascribed as Elohem, and they were putting authority over

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Speaker 1: the different nations.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I agree with him on this. Psalm eighty two,

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Speaker 3: who one says God has taken his place in his

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Speaker 3: divine council in the midst of the gods, he holds judgment. Now,

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Speaker 3: what's interesting about that psalm is if you read it

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Speaker 3: in the Hebrew text, it says Elohem has taken his

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Speaker 3: place in the divine council in the midst of the eloheens. Okay,

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Speaker 3: what's going on with this here? Now Here is where

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Speaker 3: the Dead Sea Scrolls come into play. And I don't

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Speaker 3: think Heiser used them to the effect that he could.

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Speaker 3: I think the Dead Sea Scrolls can really help his case.

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Speaker 3: But the most common words for angels or supernatural beings

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Speaker 3: in the Dead Sea Scrolls are ale, a, leen, and elohem.

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Speaker 3: It's pervasive in the Dead Sea Scrolls to refer to

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Speaker 3: angels that way. Now, angel is a Greek word, so

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Speaker 3: it's a transliteration of a Greek word, and it means messenger.

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Speaker 3: What we're dealing with here is various categories of supernatural

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Speaker 3: beings and their function might be to serve as a

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Speaker 3: messenger of a particular higher being. In this case, God

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Speaker 3: Almighty is served by myriads of angels. So I don't

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Speaker 3: know if I would make the distinction between elohem as

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Speaker 3: supernatural beings and angels. It depends on their function. If

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Speaker 3: they're functioning as messengers of the Most High God, they're angels,

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Speaker 3: but they're supernatural beings that.

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Speaker 2: Form.

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Speaker 3: I mean, in the way that Heiser presents it, which

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Speaker 3: I think is correct. They served God from the very

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Speaker 3: beginning of his creation as his lieutenants, as his ambassadors

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Speaker 3: to govern the nations, as supernatural emissaries to do that. Now,

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Speaker 3: some of them went bad, some of them rebelled, not

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Speaker 3: all of them, but some of them did. And that's

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Speaker 3: basically the heart of his idea.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I want to make sure I understand. The

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Speaker 1: term elohem capital e is used to refer to Yahweh,

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Speaker 1: the uncreated, eternal, self existent, all powerful God. Eloheim, we

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Speaker 1: might say, lowercase, is used for other spiritual beings, supernatural beings.

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Speaker 1: Some of those are angels in the sense of being messengers,

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Speaker 1: but some of those loheim might have other function in

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Speaker 1: God's counsel besides being messengers. So they're supernatural beings, but

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Speaker 1: they're not angels, that's correct.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The Hebrew Bible makes no distinction between in terminology between

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Speaker 3: God most tie is elohem and the supernatural beings that

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Speaker 3: serve him. So we have to look to the context

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Speaker 3: to see who we're referring to here when the word

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Speaker 3: elohem is used.

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Speaker 1: So elohem is just a distinction between something that's supernatural

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Speaker 1: and something that's not. So. Angels in God can be elohem,

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Speaker 1: but very different kinds of elohem, obviously.

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Speaker 2: Very different kinds of yellowhem.

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Speaker 1: Okay, But no soul human would be an elohem because

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Speaker 1: it's not a supernatural being.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the distinction.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So why A question that people ask is why

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Speaker 1: would this not be polytheism then? And obviously heiser is

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Speaker 1: distinctly said, I'm not a polytheist, but why would this

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Speaker 1: not be polytheism if we have multiple spiritual beings that

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Speaker 1: are called gods?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we even find in Free Corinthians eight Paul

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Speaker 3: calling them gods. In that sense, the difference is contextual.

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Speaker 3: The Bible is with one voice as absolutely clear that

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Speaker 3: there is one God who is supreme above all others.

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Speaker 3: He is the author of creation, He is the one

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Speaker 3: who created the supernatural realm of spirits and angels and

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Speaker 3: all of these things. So there is one God who

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Speaker 3: is supreme. So we have to be dependent upon context

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Speaker 3: to know what we're talking about in this regard here,

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Speaker 3: So we read the pages of scripture and yeah, there's

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Speaker 3: no comparison.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So polytheist if it meant simply multiple

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Speaker 1: spiritual beings that we call gods, then you could say

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Speaker 1: Christianity's polytheist. That's not what we mean. We mean there

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Speaker 1: is one God and all of these other beings are

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Speaker 1: created beings that flow from this God. So they are

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Speaker 1: completely different categories. So there's not multiple gods capital elohem,

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Speaker 1: so wouldn't qualify as polytheist? Is that that's fair.

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Speaker 3: That's completely correct. And the one God is the one

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Speaker 3: who is the creator of all of these lesser beings,

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Speaker 3: and so that sets him way above them, makes them

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Speaker 3: pre eminent over that He is the only one who

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Speaker 3: can create an eternal soul. He is the only one

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Speaker 3: who has that power and ability to create a human life.

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Speaker 1: Good. I love it. Okay, that's helpful. So okay, so

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Speaker 1: there's biblical claims that we see like referring to God,

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Speaker 1: there is none besides me. Do you agree with his it?

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Speaker 1: These are terms of comparison and not claims that such

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Speaker 1: gods don't exist.

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Speaker 2: I would agree with that, Heiser.

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Speaker 3: If we were to sit him down and talk with

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Speaker 3: him here, he would he would say that these are

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Speaker 3: there are supernatural beings that do exist. Some of them

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Speaker 3: have great power, some of them have great authorities. Some

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Speaker 3: of them have authority over nations, over empires, as we

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Speaker 3: find in Daniel chapter ten, a spirit over Persia, spirit

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Speaker 3: over Greece. We have all of these supernatural beings that

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Speaker 3: populate the world and the cosmos. And so the One

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Speaker 3: God is infinitely higher than all of these, and the

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Speaker 3: one God is sovereign over them all. The One God

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Speaker 3: will end their rebellion of the evil ones at the

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Speaker 3: end of time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so here's the Genesis one. Twenty six through twenty

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Speaker 1: eight is a pretty debated passage, and Hydra takes this

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Speaker 1: that God, you know, let us make man in our image.

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Speaker 1: Some would say, oh, the US is the Trinity. He

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Speaker 1: argues that God is kind of announcing to his divine

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Speaker 1: council that he's creating the world. So it's not trinitarian.

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Speaker 1: But the question is who is he speaking to? Well,

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Speaker 1: there would have to be some kind of supernatural beings

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Speaker 1: that he's announcing this to, because he hadn't made human

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Speaker 1: beings yet to actually address. First time I ever heard

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Speaker 1: this was when I was reading a commentary by Dennis

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Speaker 1: Praeger on Genesis and he said, well, he's announcing it

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Speaker 1: to the angels, and I was like, oh, I never

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Speaker 1: thought about that. Now. He kind of went to the

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Speaker 1: direction that he, if I remember correctly, he and kind

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Speaker 1: of the angels operate in some fashion for creation. That

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Speaker 1: was the first time I like that thought even went

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Speaker 1: through my mind. But do you agree with Heiser's take

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Speaker 1: that this is more of an announcement to the divine

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Speaker 1: council that was already there when he's creating human beings

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Speaker 1: in Genesis One?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do, Oh you do? I go him on that.

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Speaker 3: I find that if you take Deuteronomy thirty two, in

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Speaker 3: the allotment of the bene eloheen the sons of God

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Speaker 3: over the nameations and so on, that these are divine

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Speaker 3: supernatural beings that God uses to govern the world, then

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Speaker 3: it makes perfect sense to see this as an announcement

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Speaker 3: to them.

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Speaker 2: In that way.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going to confess something here. I've been deeply

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Speaker 3: influenced by the writings of a man that I have

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Speaker 3: great respect for. His name is Gordon Wenham. Gordon Wenham,

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Speaker 3: I brought his commentary here, wrote the word biblical commentary

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Speaker 3: on Genesis.

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Speaker 1: You did the word commentary on Colations, which is super cool.

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Speaker 2: I've served on.

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Speaker 3: The ESV Translation committee with Gordon and had got to

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Speaker 3: know him really well. An incredibly sharp man, taught at

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Speaker 3: University of Gloucester in England for years, Cambridge Educated and

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Speaker 3: so on. But he he takes the Divine Council worldview

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Speaker 3: and has written so in Genesis. As he looks at

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Speaker 3: Genesis one twenty six, he sees his is an announcement

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Speaker 3: to the Divine Council. He would probably part company with

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Speaker 3: Heiser slightly in just wanting to refer to it as

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Speaker 3: the heavenly host, the angelic realm. But it's semantics really.

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Speaker 1: So heavenly host is a term Divine Council term shows up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's what's the distinction? He's limited it to angels in

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Speaker 1: terms of messengers as opposed to the other spiritual beings.

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Speaker 1: What does that distinction I mean, I think some.

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Speaker 2: People are are a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Concerned about using the word alohem to refer to angelic beings,

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Speaker 3: that they want to preserve that term for God alone.

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Speaker 2: And so just.

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Speaker 1: But the Bible. But the Bible does that, I mean, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, fair enough, all right, So let's let's

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Speaker 1: go to the Deuteronomy thirty two worldview. So maybe explained

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Speaker 1: to us why Heiser means by this, or maybe it

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Speaker 1: goes beyond Heiser. It sounds like this isn't just his term,

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Speaker 1: even though he's highlighted it. What is the Deuteronomy thirty

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Speaker 1: two worldview of cosmic geography? What does that mean?

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Speaker 3: So we've touched on this a little bit here already.

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Speaker 3: But Deuteronomy thirty two eight says this, when the Most

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Speaker 3: High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind,

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Speaker 3: he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the

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Speaker 3: number of the baneelohem, the sons of God. And that

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Speaker 3: is an expression for divine supernatural beings. It's not a

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Speaker 3: reference to people. In this instance. Banelohem is regularly referred

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Speaker 3: to as divine beings. And so this touches on what

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Speaker 3: we've been describing, and what Heiser talks about is are

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Speaker 3: these servants of God, supernatural servants of God designated over

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Speaker 3: to govern over countries, territories, empires in the world, so

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Speaker 3: they serve Him in doing this. So geographically they have

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Speaker 3: particular territories over which they have been given responsibility. And

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Speaker 3: we just get that touched on ever so slightly again

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Speaker 3: in Daniel ten, where we have reference to Michael engaging

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Speaker 3: the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece. In

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Speaker 3: other words, these are angelic beings that govern the nations,

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Speaker 3: but they've gone astray and they rebelled, and so there's

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Speaker 3: war in heaven over this, and it's like, WHOA, what's

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Speaker 3: going on in this world that we live in? This

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Speaker 3: supernatural thing that's taking place here. So that's the cosmic geography.

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Speaker 3: It goes beyond the physical universe to the supernatural universe

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Speaker 3: and has the notion that there are governing spirits over

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Speaker 3: these areas and territories and empires.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so people understand like when David fights Goliath, it's

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Speaker 1: like this cosmic battle between the gods of the Philistines

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Speaker 1: and the One True God of Israel. When I read

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Speaker 1: this as a kid, I'm like, oh, the once your

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Speaker 1: God exists, but they worship these idols that don't exist.

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Speaker 1: There's not really a god of this realm. What Heiser saying,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like you agree with them here in particular,

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Speaker 1: citing Daniel ten saying, oh, oh no, there actually are

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Speaker 1: supernatural beings that were meant to be a part of

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Speaker 1: God's divine council, and some have gone bad and have

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Speaker 1: some kind of rule or authority over all or different

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Speaker 1: or some realms. I mean, am I getting this?

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Speaker 2: Yeah right? Getting it right?

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Speaker 3: And we get this explicitly stated even more directly about

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Speaker 3: the demonic and Deuteronomy thirty two seventeen the same chapter

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Speaker 3: a few verses later, nine verses later, it talks about

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Speaker 3: sacrifices being made to demons, and Paul picks that up

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Speaker 3: in First Corinthians ten, talking about table fellowship and being

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Speaker 3: involved in the worship of demons or the worship of

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Speaker 3: idols is tantamount to worshiping the demonic. There was a

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Speaker 3: really deeply ingrained Jewish worldview that the idols were more

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Speaker 3: than just carved images, that there is spiritual reality behind

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Speaker 3: the idols, and so to worship an idol is to

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Speaker 3: give your allegiance, your heart, your devotion to a demonic being.

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Speaker 3: So Deuteronomy thirty two seventeen First Corinthians ten are really

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Speaker 3: important in this regard of recognizing what is truly behind this.

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Speaker 2: It's more than just a carved stone.

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the things that Hazard points out.

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Speaker 1: He says, they're not just worshiping this little piece of

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Speaker 1: carved stone. Their God would somehow manifest itself through this idol,

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Speaker 1: and they knew that this was like a conduit maybe

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Speaker 1: to get to their God and honor their God. That's

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Speaker 1: what these idols represented. And so different idols people would

435
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,239
Speaker 1: have a different lands would represent the different gods of

436
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: those lands that had some kind of authority over that realm.

437
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: So if that's the case, do you do you agree

438
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: that As Heiser kind of tells the story, he walks

439
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: through like, Oh, Abraham was from a certain realm and

440
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: he's called from that realm to come to another realm.

441
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: And then we move from Egypt, we move into Jerusalem,

442
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: and all these locations have meanings because of the gods

443
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: that were there, and what God is doing through Jerusalem

444
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 1: in this physical locale is a way of defeating some

445
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: of the gods that exists throughout the world and that

446
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: geography actually matters. Is that right? Do you agree with

447
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: kind of the way he describes that.

448
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 3: That seems to be the direction that the scripture is

449
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: pointing to as I look at this and as Heiser

450
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 3: develops it, that there is something going on there. So

451
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 3: he talks a lot about Mount Herman and Bashan and

452
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 3: then talks about Cesarea Philippi, which today is Benias in Israel,

453
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 3: being a cult center of pan and being a portal

454
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: to the underworld. And the reality is I mean, if

455
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 3: we went into the portal and tried to go way

456
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: down deep into the earth.

457
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 2: There's nothing there.

458
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 3: But it is a portal into an unseen realm. That

459
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 3: I think is the right way to describe it, the

460
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 3: way that Heiser conceives of it, that there are certain

461
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 3: places that become sacred to a deity, but that becomes

462
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: a place where the deity mediate, or I should say,

463
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 3: this spirit, this demonic spirit mediates its presence in some fashion.

464
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: Hey, quick pause. I want to tell you about a

465
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: Bible study tool that I've used for twenty five years.

466
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 1: It is one of only two sponsors I have on

467
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: this channel, along with tablet school theology. Why because I

468
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: deeply believe in it, and I deeply benefited from it,

469
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 1: and I want you to consider using it. It's called Logos,

470
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: and the tools that offers at your fingertips will blow

471
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: you away. I use it preparing for interviews, I use

472
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: it in my personal Bible study in the morning, and

473
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: I even used to when I was writing my dissertation.

474
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: That means it's a tool that can be used by

475
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: scholars who want to go deep and lay people who

476
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: just want to get into the scriptures for themselves. If

477
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: you want to learn how to study the Bible for

478
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: yourself and just own and know the scriptures, you will

479
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: not find a better tool than Logos. I'd love for

480
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: you to consider trying it out. Start a free sixty

481
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: day trial, which you can find at logos dot com.

482
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: Slash McDowell link is in the description. Now back to

483
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: the show Man. That's so interesting. Okay, So there's way

484
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: more to the old test and we've got that we

485
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: can even step into, like the sacrifices in Acts chapter

486
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: seventeen and going to the gods and what the wilderness

487
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: really represents geographically. But Heiser writes this, he says this passage,

488
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: referring to the Daniel ten twenty through twenty one verse,

489
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: along with Deuteronomy thirty two eight through nine, is the

490
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: foundation for Paul's theology of the unseen world. Now we're

491
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: stepping into your realm and your expertise that you've studied.

492
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: So what is Paul's theology of the unseen world? And

493
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: you agree with Heiser's take that Daniel ten and Deuteronomy

494
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: thirty two lay the foundation for that.

495
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: I do agree they lay the foundation for that to

496
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 3: an extent they do. Paul says in Ephesian six twelve

497
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: that most Christians know our battles not against flesh and blood,

498
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: but against the rulers, authorities, powers of this dark world,

499
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: and so on, spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Now,

500
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 3: when Paul is talking about that, we've been talking about

501
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 3: these high ranking spirits over territories, empires, deities, and so on.

502
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: When we turn to the passage like Ephesian six, and

503
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 3: actually in most of Paul's writings and in the Synoptic

504
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 3: Gospels with representations of the demonic and the exorcism accounts,

505
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 3: we're talking about something that is much more personal individual

506
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 3: rather than over a whole region, over a whole territory.

507
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 3: And so when we dive deeper into Ephesian six, calls

508
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: for individuals and corporately as a church put on the

509
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 3: armor of.

510
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: God because Satan is out to make us fall as individuals.

511
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: He will attack us.

512
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 3: So four times in Ephesian six you get the command

513
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 3: stand stand on the evil day because there's these fiery

514
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 3: darts coming at us as individuals. So it's gone from

515
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 3: the cosmic level or the high level, high ranking spirits

516
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 3: down to the ground level, grassroots level where Satan and

517
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 3: his realm somehow attack individuals and pursue individuals. And part

518
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 3: of the message or the heart of the message of

519
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 3: Ephesians is that in Christ we can stand up against

520
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 3: that we can stand and have victory in our relationship

521
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 3: with the Lord Jesus Christ.

522
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: That's super helpful. I not thought of that distinction because

523
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: in the Old Testaments kind of like there's grand we're

524
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: starting a huge nation and we're taking over land, and

525
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: God is moving out for the first time with these covenants.

526
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: But then in Ephesians, Paul is writing to a church,

527
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: one individual church, and the church is growing. So now

528
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: he's talking about what does spiritual warfare look like, you

529
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: might say, from the bottom up for those And of

530
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: course they didn't. Christ had not come yet in the

531
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: Old Testament. So it's really laying the groundwork now that

532
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: Christ is here and we have the Holy Spirit inside

533
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: of us. So I might be getting ahead of us.

534
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: But how much does thinking about like geographies and lands

535
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: and these gods that are in lands, how does that

536
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: affect our spiritual warfare today? Like how do we tie

537
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: that in?

538
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: I thought a lot about this, okay, get.

539
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 3: Because I was involved for a number of years with

540
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 3: a fuller theological seminary missiologist named C. Peter Wagner, and

541
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: Wagner with a lot of other folks during the evangelistic

542
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 3: thrust called the eighty two thousand movement and the Greater

543
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: Conference on World Evangelization, was seeking how how do we

544
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 3: how can we more effectively evangelize closed countries that at

545
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: that time they were calling the ten forty window. And

546
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 3: he thought, what we haven't discerned yet is the proper

547
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: way to fight against these territorial rulers, against these powerful

548
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 3: rulers over empires, over regions, over territories, and so developed

549
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 3: this whole methodology called strategic level spiritual warfare, and he

550
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 3: differentiated it from dealing with demonized people that he called

551
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 3: ground level spiritual warfare, and said, there is a new

552
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 3: spiritual technology, this strategic level spiritual warfare that should influence

553
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 3: Christian mission. And it involves identifying who the spiritual ruler

554
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 3: is over a territory and then engaging in warfare prayer

555
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 3: against that demonic ruler.

556
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: Wow.

557
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: So it's like, wow, this was crazy. So I didn't

558
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 3: know what to think about that. Because we've got all

559
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 3: of this territorial stuff that Heiser has let us know about.

560
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 3: We've got it all there in the Old Testament and

561
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 3: Book of Daniel and so on. Is there something to

562
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 3: this methodology? And frankly, Sean I concluded that this is

563
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 3: not an.

564
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: Appropriate Okay, that's interesting. I didn't think you're going there.

565
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: Tell me why.

566
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 3: I noticed that Heiser agrees with me in that in

567
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: his more recent book on Demons. I believe that God

568
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 3: has given us the authority to exercise authority in the

569
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 3: name of Jesus against demonic spirits that are afflicting people.

570
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: So somebody comes to us with you know, I'm being attacked.

571
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 3: We can pray against that and we can issue an

572
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 3: authoritative command against that, and that's modeled to us by

573
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 3: g Esus and by Paul what this is all about.

574
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: But we stopped short of.

575
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 3: Taking on a high ranking spirit. And the reason that

576
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: I came to that conclusion is we never see that

577
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 3: model for us anywhere in scripture. And there would have

578
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 3: been plenty of opportunity to I mean, it would have

579
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 3: been great if Paul could have gone into Corinth, man

580
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 3: the spirit over Corinth to get out of here in

581
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 3: the name of Jesus, and so I can be more

582
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 3: effect even my evangelism or the one over Ephesus or

583
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 3: Jerusalem or Rome or wherever it might be. We never

584
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: see him doing that. But we see him going into

585
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 3: a place like Philippi and casting a spirit out of

586
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 3: a girl that has a spirit of divination, but never

587
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 3: this high ranking stuff where we go after it. We

588
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 3: also in the early history of the Church never see

589
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 3: this model for us, whereas deliverance ministry dealing with demonized

590
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 3: people is all over the place in the early Church Fathers,

591
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 3: but never an example of going after a high ranking spirit.

592
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 3: And when we go back to the Book of Daniel,

593
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 3: Daniel wasn't even aware of what was going on in

594
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 3: the heavenly places until an angel came along and said, hey,

595
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm late, But I was deterred for a

596
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 3: while in the heavens because there's war in heaven with

597
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 3: the Prince of Persia with the Prince of Greece, and

598
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 3: Daniel was simply praying and fasting, and so there was

599
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 3: no strategy that he was using and taking on these

600
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 3: this realm, and so we don't see Jesus.

601
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 2: Doing this either.

602
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 3: So it's caused me to be hesitant to see a

603
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 3: strategy for going after these spirits. But I think the

604
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 3: important thing is to recognize that there's a myriad of

605
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 3: spirits in a biblical worldview, and there's a variety of

606
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 3: authorities that they have over territories, over region, and then

607
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 3: those that attack people.

608
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 1: So would the assumption then follow that we've been given

609
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: authority from the bottom up to cast out demons and

610
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: engage in kind of a horizontal spiritual warfare, you might say,

611
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: but we haven't been given authority or model authority to

612
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: go up a layer some of these gods for nations.

613
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: So if they exist, and presumely it sounds like they do,

614
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: that's something God is going to take care of and

615
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: his beans. Maybe angelic beans are abouting that in ways

616
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: we don't understand, but we shouldn't worry about that when

617
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: we are engaging in spiritual warfare and doing missions. Is

618
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: that the takeawa, I think.

619
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: You've nailed it down the way I would best understand that.

620
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 3: I think that would exceed our authority. This was an

621
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 3: issue that separated Pete Wagner from John Wimber, the head

622
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 3: of the Vineyard Movement, said no, no, no, we're overstepping

623
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 3: our bounds to go and do this, and they had

624
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 3: a strong disagreement over that. And I think Wimber was correct.

625
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 3: I think that does and I think it falls into

626
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: the category of what Jude and Peter call reviling angelic

627
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 3: majesties and reviling the glorious ones in this way. So yeah,

628
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 3: And I make a distinction here between authoritative command in

629
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 3: the name of Jesus and praying. So the Lord invites

630
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 3: us to pray about anything and everything, cast all of

631
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 3: our anxiety upon him because he cares for us. So

632
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 3: we can certainly pray and bring this to the Lord.

633
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: I'm really concerned there might be a spirit over this

634
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 3: area or something, Lord, would you please do something about it.

635
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 3: But to take that to the next step, gather a

636
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 3: group of people and say, I command you spirit over whatever.

637
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,399
Speaker 2: Leave in Jesus's name.

638
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: And I could tell you stories of people that have

639
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 3: done this and there's been reprisal in the spirit realm.

640
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,399
Speaker 1: Can you tell me more what that means? Obviously, don't

641
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 1: need to identify any people. What do you mean reprisal

642
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: on the spirit realm of somebody who's stepped beyond their

643
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: bounds and done that.

644
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 3: They've come under spiritual attack where it seems like they've

645
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 3: come under deep spiritual attack. And this was one of

646
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 3: the reasons Wimber, John Wimber was opposed to it because

647
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 3: he had seen some of his churches do this and

648
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 3: then there was horrible physical spiritual attack on people in

649
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 3: the churches. And I've seen that happen as well.

650
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: Wow, So not only does the Bible not model this

651
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: or teach this, you have distinctly seen people step out

652
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: of that bounce call authority over or certain realms that

653
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: they don't have, which is different you said than praying

654
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: that God would act where he has that authority. And

655
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: have seen multiple times physical attack, other attack so yeah,

656
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: the Bible not teaching it and the reprisal that you

657
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: gave pretty good case to step away from doing that.

658
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: You mentioned Heiser and you agree wimbergreech. Do you have

659
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: any sense of where scholars land on this, like, do

660
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: most agree with you at Heiser of those who've waded

661
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: into it or would it be just impossible to get

662
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: a sense of where most are on this because it's

663
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:34,240
Speaker 1: a nuanced area.

664
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,840
Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of Old Testament scholars that

665
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 3: would agree with the Divine Council worldview. I mentioned one,

666
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: John Gordon Wenham that has advocated that for years, long

667
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 3: before Heiser came on the scene. But there's many others

668
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 3: that would accept this as well. And I think where

669
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 3: the where the disagreement will come is that Heiser takes

670
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 3: it one more step and says, Okay, you have in

671
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 3: Genesis six the sons of God cohabiting, having relationships with women,

672
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 3: human women giving birth to the Nephylem. And then Heiser

673
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 3: takes out a step further and says, and this is

674
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 3: the origin of the demonic. When the nephylene died, their

675
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 3: disembodied spirits became the demons, and that's the origin of

676
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 3: the demonic realm that we find at the time of

677
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 3: Jesus and the Apostles and carrying on with us today.

678
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 3: And and so that is where I would disagree with Heiser.

679
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 3: I do not see that as the origin of the

680
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 3: demonic h and many in many scholars I think, would

681
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 3: disagree with that as.

682
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: Well, many, like probably most many.

683
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 3: As in the history of the Christian Church, the vast

684
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: majority of scholars see and Christians see the origin of

685
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 3: the demonic in a primordial fall of the demonic of

686
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 3: the angels, I should say, where sometime after creation a

687
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 3: huge number of the heavenly hosts rebelled against God and fell,

688
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 3: and that that was the origin of the demonic. Now,

689
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 3: Heiser depends very heavily on a Second Temple Jewish text

690
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 3: called One Enoch, and there is he doesn't use it

691
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 3: as much as he could, but the Book of Jubileese.

692
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 2: So this.

693
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 3: Is where he's getting this idea. It's not in the

694
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 3: Bible at all. I mean, that's not in the Bible

695
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 3: that the origin of the demonic came this way. So

696
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 3: he's putting a lot of stock in this one text.

697
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: So that's one okay. So I want to circle back

698
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: to your take on Genesis six, But it sounds like

699
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 1: the vast majority throughout Church history would take the Isaiah

700
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 1: fourteen Ezekiel twenty eight passage and say this is somehow

701
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: referring to Satan rebelling against God and taking some of

702
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 1: the angels with him who become the demons. That's the

703
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: story I always heard growing up, never really read into

704
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 1: the passages to see It's maybe not quite as crystal

705
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 1: clear as I would have been led to believe, but

706
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: you can make a case for it is how I

707
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: see it. But that's the standard story most people thout

708
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: Church history and most scholars would take for the origin

709
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: of demons. Is that fair? As far as that's correct?

710
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 3: Tell and in Revelation twelve you have this, I would

711
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 3: take it as a historic flashback of the dragon representing Satan,

712
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: his tail wipe, swiping a third of the angels out

713
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 3: of the sky and so on. I think that's in

714
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 3: the multi layers of what's going on in Revelation Well,

715
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 3: probably a historical flashback of that very event that you're

716
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 3: talking about Isaiah fourteen Ezekiel twenty eight. Yeah, they're talking

717
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 3: about the Prince of Tire or the king of tire

718
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 3: and all that.

719
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 2: But it changes focus and there are a number.

720
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 3: Of elements in those passages that seem to go way

721
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 3: beyond a human ruler that maybe suggestive of it's looking

722
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 3: at the spirit behind the human ruler.

723
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 1: So the way you phrased it, just the way I

724
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: would take it, like it's suggestive, it fits. There's prophetic language,

725
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: so it's not black and white clear, but that is

726
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,760
Speaker 1: how most in church history and most people who write

727
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: in spiritual warfare would take or even doing commentaries on

728
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: Ephesian and Clautions, would take that view as the origin

729
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: of demons.

730
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 2: That's correct, Okay.

731
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 3: The reality is we open up our New Testaments and

732
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 3: you know, Jesus is baptized, he begins his ministry and bang,

733
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 3: he's in the synagogue Copernaium and there's a demonized man

734
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 3: and then he's got to deal with that. So we

735
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 3: see Jesus hit the ground running with all these encounters

736
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 3: all through the Synoptic Gospels, but he never tells us

737
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 3: where they came from. He doesn't say a word. Neither

738
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 3: does Paul, neither does the Book of Acts or anywhere

739
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 3: else in the New Testament. And so I haven't personally

740
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 3: spent a good amount of scholarly effort trying to discern

741
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 3: that because we're in a lot of a realm of

742
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 3: a lot of speculation. Now Heiser has helped me to see,

743
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 3: there's more to it, Clint than you realize.

744
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: And so he's helped me see.

745
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 3: Okay, the Old Testament is saying a lot more than

746
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 3: I had previously thought. But we're still in a realm

747
00:45:55,800 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 3: of speculation. For Heiser to get to demons coming from

748
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 3: the disembodied spirits of the Nephelem were outside of the Bible.

749
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: That that's a stretch. Okay. So Genesis six, though, when

750
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: it talks to this is obviously one of the strangest

751
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 1: passages period in the Bible, talks about men beginning to

752
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 1: multiply the face of the land, and daughters were born

753
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 1: to them. The sons of God saw that the daughters

754
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: of men were attractive, and they took as their wives

755
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: any they chose. My spirit shall not abiden man fever

756
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: for his flesh. His days shall be one hundred and

757
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: twenty years. The Lord says, this is the nepheline. We're

758
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 1: on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when

759
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: the sons of God came into the daughters of men,

760
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: they bore children to them. These were the mighty men

761
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: who did of old the men of renown. Now this

762
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: raises six four hundred and eighty seven questions to just

763
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: invent a number, and probably you could exponentially grow that.

764
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 1: But the standard view for when I understand talking with

765
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 1: Dominic Hernandez about this, who we also teach her at Talbot,

766
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: he said, early Church, it was essentially everybody agreed that

767
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: this was some kind of angelic being having sex with

768
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: human beings. Now there's other views that arrive after that.

769
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: But do you hold that view and at least comes

770
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: to Genesis six?

771
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 3: I do I accept that view. Now, I don't pretend

772
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 3: to understand it. I agree, and I think Heiser has

773
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 3: given some plausible ways that we might be able to

774
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 3: make sense of it. But still it's just like bizarre.

775
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 3: So but Dominic is correct Second Temple Judaism. That was

776
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 3: the view of Second Temple Jewish literature. These were angelic

777
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 3: beings coming and cohabiting with daughters and men. Early Christian

778
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,280
Speaker 3: writers same thing. It wasn't until Augustine that we started

779
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 3: getting a different take on it. And I think he

780
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 3: was struggling with the same thing we're struggling with. Well,

781
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 3: how could this it conceivably happened?

782
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: Yah?

783
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: You brought in a lot of interesting stuff around that time,

784
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 1: a millennialism and other issues we don't have to go into.

785
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: But okay, so you fully agree something supernatural happened there.

786
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 1: But when it comes to the origin of demons, he

787
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: sounds like points towards First Enoch. What do we know

788
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: about that? How do you think that helps us in

789
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: terms of understanding spiritual warfare? If at all?

790
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 3: Yes, I think I would fuss with Heiser over the

791
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 3: certainty with which he presents that view. Okay, all right,

792
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 3: it's a plausible view. I think it's a plausible view,

793
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:44,240
Speaker 3: and it is certainly a view that may have had

794
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 3: some takers in the early centuries, but it's not the

795
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 3: only view out there. In fact, that view is the

796
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: minority view, and so the confidence with which he's presenting

797
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 3: that as was the origin of the demonic realm is

798
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 3: something I struggle with. And secondly, I think One Enoch

799
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,120
Speaker 3: is an interesting work. There is It was first century BC.

800
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,320
Speaker 3: It's actually a composite work. There's probably five different books

801
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 3: that go into what we know is First Enoch, and

802
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 3: it was widely read. I mean they found fragments of

803
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 3: First Enoch at Kumran among the Dead Sea scrolls written

804
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 3: in Aramaic and so on, so it was widely read,

805
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 3: widely known. And it's in First Enoch chapter six and

806
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 3: following that you find this idea of demons being the

807
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,919
Speaker 3: disembodied spirits of the nepheline.

808
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 2: Who have died.

809
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 3: And again it's not in the Bible, it's a Second

810
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 3: Temple Jewish text. So that's where I am struggling a

811
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 3: little bit. Now, they may have had it right, they

812
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 3: may have had a really ancient tradition that came down

813
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 3: to him. But one of the other things that isn't

814
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 3: said in Heiser's work is that the leader of this

815
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 3: demonic rebellion his name was sem Yas, which Heiser doesn't mention.

816
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 3: But there were only two hundred. There were only two

817
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 3: hundred rebellious angels that came down in First snotics six

818
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 3: and had these relations. Whereas with the other theory about

819
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 3: the origin of the demonic, there's myriads of demons that

820
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 3: have fallen with Satan in the primordial fall, and so

821
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 3: where do all the other demons come from.

822
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: Oh that's an interesting question. Okay, very interesting. All right,

823
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 1: I'll let okay, let me keep going, because this gets in.

824
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: I think your specific realm of expertis a lot of

825
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: people don't realize there's no casting out of demons in

826
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: the Old Testament. It blow me away. The first time

827
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: I read that was like, wait a minute, that's right.

828
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,399
Speaker 1: The first is by Jesus. You mentioned a moment ago

829
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: early in his ministry, after he is returned from being

830
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: tempted in the desert. Heiser says, quote, the defeat of

831
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: demons falling on the heels of Jesus victory over Satan's

832
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: temptation marks the beginning of the re establishment of the

833
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: Kingdom of God on earth. And since the lesser elohem

834
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: over the nations are cast as demons in the Old Testament,

835
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: the implications for our study are clear. The ministry of

836
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: Jesus marked the beginning of repossession of the nations and

837
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: defeat of their eloheim. Agree, disagree.

838
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 2: I would nuance it quite differently, Okay.

839
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 3: I don't see the Church repossessing the nations and defeating

840
00:51:54,960 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 3: the eloheim over the nations. I see the Church evangelizing,

841
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 3: sharing the Gospel doing ground level work all over, but

842
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 3: not engaging in any kind of warfare with the high

843
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 3: ranking Lohim. Now there will come a time when Jesus

844
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 3: subdues all of these works. But I think for us

845
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 3: right now, it's correct insofar as what he says, this

846
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: is the beginning of their demise, in the sense that

847
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 3: Luke eleven twenty says, if I cast out demons by

848
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 3: the spirit of God, the Kingdom of God has come

849
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,359
Speaker 3: upon you. Matthew twelve twenty eight says the same thing.

850
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 3: So there is the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God

851
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 3: into the present age. Anytime we see Satan defeated that way,

852
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 3: anytime we see Jesus defeating Satan Paul, that's a representation

853
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 3: that the Kingdom of God is broken into reality and

854
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 3: is moving forward.

855
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 2: But it's not a.

856
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 3: Political It will never be a political takeover of the land.

857
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 3: It will be an expansion of the church, or, as

858
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 3: Ephesians two eleven through twenty two put it, the building

859
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 3: of the Testament temple stone by stone. As people are

860
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:30,399
Speaker 3: added in the New Testament, temple grows in this way.

861
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 3: So again I don't know if I'd frame it in

862
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 3: quite that way. One other thing that I would add

863
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 3: to this is when Jesus was on the earth, he

864
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 3: sent out the twelve to do ministry, preparing them for

865
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 3: the mission of the Church. But then there's this enigmatic

866
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,200
Speaker 3: passage in Luke chapter ten where he sends out seventy

867
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 3: two and he sends them out and he gives them

868
00:53:56,160 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 3: authority over spirits, and they come back and they're amaze, Lord,

869
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 3: even the demons submit to us in your name. So

870
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 3: I think he's preparing them for the Book of Acts.

871
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 3: And then what's going to happen when they go out?

872
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 3: Then Jesus says something interesting. He says, you know, when

873
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 3: you guys are going out there and doing this, I

874
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,200
Speaker 3: was watching and I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

875
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 3: Now some people have taken that he's been dethroned from heaven.

876
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 3: I think what it means is that Satan was enraged

877
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 3: to see inroads being made into his kingdom, into his territory,

878
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,240
Speaker 3: and he's raging in opposition to the mission of the Church.

879
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 3: And we see that playing out in the Book of Acts,

880
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 3: Satan in his opposition to the Church. To me, that

881
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 3: makes the best sense of like lightning, because in the

882
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 3: ancient Eary's contexts bail through the lightning sphares against anybody

883
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 3: that opposed him. In a Greek context, Zeus had his lightning.

884
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 3: We have a situation here where Jesus is kind of

885
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 3: announcing I'm preparing you to go out, but you need

886
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 3: to expect that there will be powerful, supernatural opposition as

887
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,239
Speaker 3: you go out. Satan will rage in opposition to the

888
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 3: mission of the church. But I've given you authority to

889
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:33,240
Speaker 3: deal with demonize people along the way as you've done,

890
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 3: but there will be opposition. And I find that's so

891
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 3: incredibly relevant for now as we see problem after problem

892
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 3: confronting the church, difficulties in so many different quarters, with

893
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 3: persecution in the church, it could appear that we're losing

894
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 3: the battle, but no, we're assured that Jesus will win

895
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 3: in the end.

896
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: It's done a great job laying out where you agree

897
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 1: with high and some areas where you differ. Did we

898
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 1: miss any points that you wanted to make make either

899
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: points of agreement or areas on any passage big or

900
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: small that he makes where you would differ, Or did

901
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: we cover kind of the main areas that you wanted

902
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: to highlight.

903
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 2: We've covered a lot seans.

904
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 3: We have covered a lot of great questions and it's

905
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 3: been a great conversation. There's one thing I would probably add,

906
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 3: and it's not in his book The Unseen Realm. It's

907
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 3: in the book called Demons, and it's at the end

908
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 3: section of the book where I was actually very surprised

909
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 3: after he's done all this fantastic groundwork laying the foundation

910
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 3: for this supernatural worldview that he basically says for the

911
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,240
Speaker 3: church today, there's never a need to rebuke Satan, speak

912
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,879
Speaker 3: against him in an authoritative command or anything like that.

913
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 3: And it shocked me because I thought he would build

914
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,720
Speaker 3: on what he said by showing that, no, the Church

915
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 3: has been given authority in the name of Jesus to

916
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 3: stand up against this. So when somebody comes and they

917
00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 3: see themselves under demonic attack, we have the ability to

918
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 3: functions believer priests and pray over them, and if they're

919
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 3: being attacked by a spirit, to issue a command and

920
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 3: command the spirit to leave. So heiser stops short of that,

921
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure why. I would love to talk

922
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 3: to him and say, Okay, what do we do then,

923
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 3: because I'm in a context where I see people coming

924
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 3: and asking for prayer, all the time seeing themselves under attack,

925
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 3: an evil presence coming into the room, an evil presence

926
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 3: holding them down and choking them, and night terrors and

927
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 3: all these sorts of things. And my advice is you've

928
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 3: been given authority in Christ because you're united with Him.

929
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 3: You have the power and authority in Christ to command

930
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 3: that spirit to go. Heiser stopped short of that, and

931
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 3: I would love to talk to him and see, can't

932
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:06,320
Speaker 3: we just take that a step further?

933
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 2: This is what the church needs? Well.

934
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:11,479
Speaker 1: I wish I could facilitate that conversation. That would be

935
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: super fascinating. If there's somebody watching and listening and says, hey,

936
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: actually a Heiser's dealt with this in another book we

937
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: didn't see, or in a video. Send it to us.

938
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: I like to see it. I will share it with

939
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: you because that to me through my website or tag it.

940
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 1: That would be really helpful to see. So do you

941
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: recommend people read Heiser? Do you have any qualifications at

942
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:34,919
Speaker 1: reading it? Like, what's your take when somebody goes, hey,

943
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about reading a Heiser, especially like a student

944
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: with us here at Talbot, what would you say.

945
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 3: I would say, go for it. I have great respect

946
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 3: for what he's written. Obviously I have some disagreements with him,

947
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 3: but I hope people when they read me read critically,

948
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 3: you know, question the interpretation of the text. Do I

949
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,680
Speaker 3: have the evidence correctly? Have I interpreted the evidence right?

950
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 3: My using the background material properly?

951
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:03,439
Speaker 2: And so on.

952
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 3: I think there's so much benefit in reading Heiser, but

953
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 3: as with anything, I think we need to read critically.

954
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 1: I love that, So tell us really quickly. This is

955
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: my final question. You're teaching a class this fall at

956
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: Talbot on spiritual warfare? What would that class entail?

957
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 3: So, yeah, I'll be teaching a class on spiritual warfare.

958
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 3: We're calling it Issues in Spiritual Warfare, But basically we

959
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 3: are looking at what the Bible says about spiritual warfare,

960
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 3: but then taking the next step in saying, what would

961
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 3: it look like in the church to take this more seriously?

962
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 3: And I'll be candid with you. One of my underlying

963
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 3: aims is to see prayer ministries developed in churches that

964
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 3: we have a profound, a greater and more profound willingness

965
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 3: to pray with people who are hurting. I think developing

966
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 3: what Heiser calls the supernatural world view helps us see

967
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 3: there's more to life than just the physical the psychological.

968
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 3: There's a supernatural dimension and if we take that side seriously,

969
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 3: it amplifies the importance of prayer because we're calling on

970
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 3: the divine warrior to fight for us, and the theme

971
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 3: of the divine warrior is pervasive in the Old Testament.

972
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: Oh man, I love this. I uh, I just have

973
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: to pause and think. Sometimes you get to take a

974
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: class from somebody who's the expert in that field, like

975
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: I took Philosophy of Mind with JP Morland, right Philosophy

976
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 1: of Religion William Lane Craig. People have a chance to

977
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 1: come to Talbot and study spiritual warfare with you. You going

978
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: back to I don't have to date it, eighties, whatever

979
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 1: it was. You did your PhD on a topic related

980
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: to spiritual warfare and have been writing this and practicing

981
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 1: it with people. Is one reason we want people to

982
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 1: really think about coming to Talbot to get kind of

983
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: these experiences firsthand. I've only two sponsors for this channel,

984
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 1: by the way. One is bi Ale and Talbot. I

985
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 1: go here, I teach here. I want as many people

986
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,480
Speaker 1: to come studying. The other one is Logos Bible software.

987
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 1: I've used to it thirty years. Almost every day I'll

988
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 1: almost say almost because maybe I'm traveling or I'm sick,

989
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,360
Speaker 1: but virtually every day I open that up and I

990
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 1: study the scriptures and I love it. And so those

991
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 1: are two sponsors that I love and I believe in deeply.

992
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 1: Sign up students to come study with us. You can

993
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 1: do a New Testament with Clinarle. You can come study

994
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 1: Apologetics with me. There's information below. We also have a

995
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 1: certificate program which people can take and get a certificate

996
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 1: in apologetics if they're not quite ready for Masters. But Clint,

997
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 1: this has been a real joy. If some people listening

998
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 1: are like, you know what, I'd love to hear Clint

999
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 1: lean more into this issue or that issue, comment below

1000
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: and we'll give you space because you prepped a lot

1001
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: for this, you read books. But I'd love to have

1002
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 1: you back in a way that would be helpful to people.

1003
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 1: So let us know there's a certain area that we

1004
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 1: could cover it in the spiritual realm, and we will

1005
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 1: at least pray about it. Clint, this is fun. Really

1006
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 1: appreciate you. Hey friends, If you enjoyed this show, please

1007
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 1: hit that fall button on your podcast app. Most of

1008
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: you tuning in haven't done this yet, and it makes

1009
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: a huge difference in helping us reach and equip more

1010
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 1: people and build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review.

1011
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:23,919
Speaker 1: Every review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

1012
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 1: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

1013
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

1014
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 1: spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more.

1015
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,640
Speaker 1: We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach,

1016
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 1: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see

1017
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 1: you when the next episode drops.