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Speaker 1: Coming up on Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic.

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Speaker 2: Well, fast forward a couple days, I'm at the hotel

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Speaker 2: and the parking spot comes to mind. And in that moment,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's totally just Holy Spirit. I was like,

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Speaker 2: you know what? Jesus can have all of this. I

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Speaker 2: can't do it anymore. I want to be two feet in.

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Speaker 2: And that is terrifying, but I want to do it.

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Speaker 2: And I literally went downstairs from the hotel, went to

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Speaker 2: a parking spot. and jumped over a line. And I

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Speaker 2: got in my car, drove back to Dallas, and I

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Speaker 2: have not had any drugs or alcohol since that day.

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Speaker 2: It was a moment of desperation where I was like, actually, Jesus,

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Speaker 2: you can have all of it. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: it looks like. You can have it.

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Speaker 1: Hello, hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 1: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel, and I

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Speaker 1: am the Christian who became an alcoholic, not the other

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Speaker 1: way around. Here, we get radically vulnerable about addiction, recovery,

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Speaker 1: messy sanctification, and all the things we turn to instead

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Speaker 1: of Jesus because we're all addicted to something. You'll hear raw,

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Speaker 1: honest conversations from those who have struggled, those who help

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Speaker 1: those who struggle, and why aiming for Jesus and getting

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Speaker 1: sobriety thrown in is actually the best goal. So let's

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Speaker 1: get right into this week's episode. I need a miracle.

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Speaker 1: Those are the words of our guest today, Emily White.

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Speaker 1: But they're also the words of literally the wife of

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Speaker 1: that I just got off the phone with of a

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Speaker 1: man who is struggling to stay sober. It's one step forward,

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Speaker 1: two steps back. And in some ways, and in some senses,

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Speaker 1: over the course of the last little bit, they've had

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Speaker 1: some miracles. She's seen them. But really, when it comes

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Speaker 1: down to it, She is sitting here knowing that the

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Speaker 1: only thing that is truly going to change this around

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Speaker 1: is for the Lord to intervene. And that's true. Now,

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Speaker 1: that can be true, but it doesn't actually mean we

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Speaker 1: are helpless or hopeless. And what I mean by that

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Speaker 1: is I think sometimes people– We'll say, well, it's going

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Speaker 1: to take a miracle, and it's kind of a dismissive thing.

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, it's going to take a miracle, so

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Speaker 1: there's really– what are you going to do? And yet,

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Speaker 1: I think time and time again in the Bible and

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Speaker 1: in the scriptures where we see miracles, we also see

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Speaker 1: that the Lord has called us to participate. And so

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Speaker 1: maybe you're listening to this and you're like, I need

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Speaker 1: a miracle. Maybe you're listening to this and you're like,

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Speaker 1: my husband, my wife needs a miracle. And I want

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Speaker 1: you to know that that carries with it a lot

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Speaker 1: of hope. And it should carry with it a lot

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Speaker 1: of hope. Emily White's story that you're about to hear

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Speaker 1: is going to show you that. Emily walked into a

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Speaker 1: Christian recovery meeting at a church. She found someone with

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Speaker 1: a lanyard and said, I need a miracle. She was

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Speaker 1: at the end of her rope. And yet, by the way,

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Speaker 1: that miracle did not look like instant healing. Instant, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want the drugs anymore. I don't want the

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Speaker 1: alcohol anymore. It wasn't instant transformation or a tidy recovery story.

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Speaker 1: And so I want you to hear that as well.

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Speaker 1: Emily is someone who I have really come to just adore.

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Speaker 1: I love the way she talks. I love the way

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Speaker 1: that she loves people. In so many ways, she is

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Speaker 1: the most unlikely person to find sobriety. But what I

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Speaker 1: have learned is that the people most unlikely– The people

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Speaker 1: most unlikely to find sobriety are the people that are

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Speaker 1: most likely to find Jesus and in most need of Jesus.

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Speaker 1: That's Emily. Emily now works as a licensed counselor down

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Speaker 1: at the Austin Stone, which is a great church in

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Speaker 1: the Austin, Texas area after being in the Dallas area.

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Speaker 1: If you've listened to this podcast, you'll have heard the

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Speaker 1: episode with John Elmore. And so John Elmore was the

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Speaker 1: person I believe he was teaching at that recovery meeting.

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Speaker 1: And go back and listen to that. It is one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite episodes, by the way. But now Emily

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Speaker 1: is helping people who find themselves just like her in

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Speaker 1: need of a miracle. That could be Christians. It can

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Speaker 1: be non-Christians. It can be everyone in between. I had

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Speaker 1: lunch recently, and I kind of gave an overview of

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Speaker 1: my story. And the person said, oh, so then you

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Speaker 1: became a Christian after you hit rock bottom. I said, no, no, no.

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Speaker 1: I was a Christian. It's still hard for, I think,

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Speaker 1: some people to understand. You can be a Christian and

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Speaker 1: need a miracle when it comes to recovery. I know

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Speaker 1: plenty of them. Emily White's story will give you hope.

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Speaker 1: So I'm excited for you to meet her. I'm excited

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Speaker 1: for you to listen to her. If you've heard me

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Speaker 1: on Kimberly Ray Brown's podcast, they are roommates. They are

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Speaker 1: an incredible, just like dynamic duo. So I'm excited for

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Speaker 1: you to hear and get to know Emily. She serves, again,

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Speaker 1: as a licensed counselor that works specifically with addictions through

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Speaker 1: a gospel-centered lens. Before we get there, real quick, go

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Speaker 1: to Veritas Recovery. You can now watch the We're All

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Speaker 1: Addicted to Something series for free by signing up and

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Speaker 1: joining the Veritas Recovery community for free. Nothing. No strings attached.

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Speaker 1: No strings attached. So go to VeritasRecovery.org, and there's a

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Speaker 1: link to do that. So without further ado, Emily White. Em,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining the Confessions of a

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Speaker 1: Christian Alcoholic podcast. I know you don't do many of these,

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Speaker 1: so I don't take it lightly that, you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: in the headline at some point we'll even call this

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Speaker 1: an exclusive. I'll go back to my news days. Exclusive

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Speaker 1: interview with counselor and therapist Em White. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'm excited to be here, though. Your book was my

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Speaker 2: favorite book last year that I read. I've read it twice. Well,

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Speaker 2: I listened to it once. So this is exciting. It's

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Speaker 2: like meeting a Kardashian.

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Speaker 1: And that is not like like Em didn't like that's

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Speaker 1: not how she got on the podcast. You know, as

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Speaker 1: I've said before, I love when people reach out to me.

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Speaker 1: I encourage people to reach out to me and share

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Speaker 1: their story. And I've had several people on. Although here's

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Speaker 1: what's interesting, Em. You were kind of like stealth because

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Speaker 1: how this all happened is I was on a podcast

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Speaker 1: being interviewed by your friend and roommate. And we're talking

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Speaker 1: and she kind of starts telling me her story and

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Speaker 1: how it intersects with you. And I'm like, wait, she

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Speaker 1: has a story. She's like, oh, yeah, it's great. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, come on. You've been holding out on me.

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Speaker 2: Everybody has a story, John.

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Speaker 1: Oh. Said like a true therapist, right? In a good way.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so introduce yourself a little bit before we

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Speaker 1: get going. Just give us kind of the highlights, what

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Speaker 1: you do, who your roommate is. And then I want

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Speaker 1: to get into your story. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, I live in Austin and I am a counselor

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Speaker 2: at Austin Stone Counseling Center. And we... really tried to

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Speaker 2: bridge the gap between like clinical training and biblical training.

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Speaker 2: And so it's been really fun to work in that

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Speaker 2: setting because I believe that Jesus is the ultimate healer.

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Speaker 2: And we also have science and a lot of clinical

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Speaker 2: tools that are really helpful. And so That's what I

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Speaker 2: do day to day. And then I'm seven and a

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Speaker 2: half years sober. And the half is important.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Every day. And so that's a big part of my story.

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Speaker 2: And so I specialize in addiction, which is fun to

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Speaker 2: walk alongside people. And also so funny that God did this,

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Speaker 2: like that he wrote the story this way is comical

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Speaker 2: and really cool.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's funny, you know, the seven and a half, because

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Speaker 1: it's like, it's kind of like, I say the same thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm two years, I'm two and a half,

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Speaker 1: I'm three, right? But also, I'm a short man. I'm

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Speaker 1: a short king, as the cool kids like to say.

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Speaker 1: And I, so when I say my high I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm five, six and a quarter, you know. Like, don't

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Speaker 1: you cheat me out of that little that little bit

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Speaker 1: because it's hard for.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So I want you I really want to give you

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Speaker 1: the reins to tell your story. And so take us back,

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Speaker 1: you know, as far back as you want to go

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Speaker 1: and tell us your story of of addiction. and how

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Speaker 1: you found freedom you know we can talk about you

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Speaker 1: know your roommate does play a role in that and

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Speaker 1: i think um which is a beautiful a beautiful piece

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Speaker 1: of the story as well and i would just love

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Speaker 1: to hear how you know god kind of not kind

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Speaker 1: of how god intersected your life in a powerful way

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Speaker 1: to bring you to where you are.

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Speaker 2: Today yeah yeah well i was fortunate and blessed to

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Speaker 2: um be in a home where my parents are still

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Speaker 2: married and I have two siblings. I'm the middle child

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Speaker 2: and very classic middle child, wild, out there, all the things.

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Speaker 2: And so home life was.

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Speaker 1: It was good.

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Speaker 2: We had some complicated dynamics, just like any family. But

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Speaker 2: I was a sad child from the beginning. And I

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Speaker 2: think that, you know, as far as like early childhood,

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Speaker 2: I really have more questions than I do answers at

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Speaker 2: this point. I'm still working through that part of my story.

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Speaker 2: But I would say that, yeah, I was just really sad.

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Speaker 2: I had a lot of inner turmoil. And so I

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Speaker 2: discovered alcohol pretty early on. I was really good at

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Speaker 2: hiding stuff, which at the time was a blessing, but

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Speaker 2: it ended up being a curse. Right. And so I

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Speaker 2: started drinking to really kind of numb the feelings that

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Speaker 2: I was having, like this turmoil thing. I would say

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Speaker 2: it actually got pretty bad in high school. That's when

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Speaker 2: the drinking really escalated for me. And for me, it

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Speaker 2: wasn't like I would go party with friends and that

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Speaker 2: kind of thing. But it was I drank alone because

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Speaker 2: it it made me feel better. So it was never

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Speaker 2: like a fun.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: It was for fun, but also it was quieting these

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Speaker 2: voices I had inside that were just painful and dark

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Speaker 2: and sad. And so, you know, honestly, it helped me

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Speaker 2: until it didn't, right?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. It was helpful.

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Speaker 2: So started really the drinking started picking up in high

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Speaker 2: school again. I was really good at hiding it. My

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Speaker 2: poor parents, they never had any idea. what was going on. Um,

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Speaker 2: and I barely graduated high school, went to college, um,

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Speaker 2: and it got really, really dark there. Um, I went

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Speaker 2: to a school in Nacogdoches, Texas. Um, and yeah, it

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Speaker 2: just got really, really bad. My drinking escalated, um, drug

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Speaker 2: use started lots of trauma collected there.

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Speaker 1: Um, when you say, when you say your drinking got

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Speaker 1: bad and like, what did that look like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of drinking alone, drinking. If I was

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Speaker 2: driving anywhere, I had to be drinking. If I was

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Speaker 2: driving home, if I was going anywhere, I would fill up,

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Speaker 2: you know, like those camelback backpacks that you're supposed to

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Speaker 2: take hiking for hydration. I would fill that with alcohol

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Speaker 2: to walk to class. And so it was just constant

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Speaker 2: as much as I could. And then, you know, I

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Speaker 2: would party. I was living the college party life, but

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Speaker 2: I was drinking beforehand. And so, yeah, that's kind of

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Speaker 2: a overview of what that looked like.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, man, if you're doing Camelbacks, like how

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Speaker 1: much were you drinking a day? I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know. It was excessive. Yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: excessive because then I would go to the parties, too.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, it was very.

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Speaker 1: Was anyone noticing at this time?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was around a lot of partying kids. And

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Speaker 2: so there wasn't I mean, everyone was drinking. There were

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Speaker 2: there was times where people would be like, hey, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, they would bring up questions. But for the

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Speaker 2: most part, no. I mean, I didn't have a really

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Speaker 2: good relationship with my parents at the time, so I

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Speaker 2: didn't see them very much. I had pretty much shut

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Speaker 2: out anybody healthy in my life at that point.

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Speaker 1: And was that kind of an intentional pushing away, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of the classic addiction causes you to start isolating?

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I also struggled with mental health really bad. I

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Speaker 2: have a bipolar diagnosis, which thankfully I'm medicated for now.

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Speaker 2: But back then I wasn't. And so I'd go in

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Speaker 2: these really big like depression sessions. manic episodes. And so

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Speaker 2: I just wasn't in a healthy place. And the alcohol

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Speaker 2: is what helped me manage that at the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, I mean, that's what that's what I

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Speaker 1: think is sometimes hard for people who don't struggle to understand. And,

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Speaker 1: you know, especially when you have a mental health diagnosis

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Speaker 1: in the background that either you're not you're not treating

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Speaker 1: or is undiagnosed, you don't know. Is that man like

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Speaker 1: the alcohol, the drugs, it, they help. Right. And so

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, sometimes I don't love the term

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Speaker 1: and the phrase, you know, that addiction is not a

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Speaker 1: moral issue because I think it's it's it's too it's

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Speaker 1: not nuanced enough. But I was talking to someone once

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Speaker 1: and they said it like this. And I think it really,

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Speaker 1: it's that addiction is not a moral compass issue, meaning

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Speaker 1: you can, you can be, you can know, hey, this

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Speaker 1: isn't right. I'm choosing to do this, but I'm choosing

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Speaker 1: to do it because I have determined that despite the

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Speaker 1: feelings of knowing that this is wrong, the benefit is

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Speaker 1: greater for me. And so especially, so it's like, It's

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Speaker 1: not that you don't know it's wrong or that, hey,

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Speaker 1: something's off here, even if you're not a Christian. But

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Speaker 1: you're like, hey, there is a benefit here for me.

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Speaker 1: And I think for those of us, especially with mental

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Speaker 1: health struggles, that benefit is real. It quiets the noises

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Speaker 1: and it does help. Now, it's not a precision numbing agent.

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Speaker 1: And it's a very, you know, has great side effects

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Speaker 1: or bad side effects. It's not great as, you know,

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Speaker 1: an actual medication that's formulated for our issues. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it definitely does help. And so that's what you started

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Speaker 1: to experience in college.

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Speaker 2: Right. That alcohol almost killed me. But at first it

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Speaker 2: helped me survive, you know, and it was almost necessary

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Speaker 2: at that point. Because I otherwise like I I don't

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Speaker 2: think that I would have lived like I wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: survived like the inner world that I was experiencing. That

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Speaker 2: was the best coping mechanism I could come up with

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Speaker 2: at the time. And then things got worse at college.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, just after a lot of things that happened,

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Speaker 2: I ended up moving to DFW, which is where I'm from.

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Speaker 2: I transferred to a school there and I moved in

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Speaker 2: with a Christian roommate, not the one that we've referenced already,

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Speaker 2: a different one. And at the time, my drinking was

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Speaker 2: really bad. She was super patient with me because I

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Speaker 2: had I had really I was really good at lying.

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Speaker 2: And so I had painted this picture that I was

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Speaker 2: this nice Christian girl that she should live with. And

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Speaker 2: then I moved in with her and I was drinking.

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Speaker 2: I was using drugs. I had. some really sketchy people over.

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Speaker 2: And she was so patient and always just loving on me,

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Speaker 2: pointing me to truth, inviting me to church, which I

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Speaker 2: wasn't going with her. But through her, I ended up

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Speaker 2: meeting a lot of believers and they took me to church.

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Speaker 2: I started to get involved there. This is again in college.

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Speaker 2: And I found a lot of great people But there

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Speaker 2: was a disconnect. I was trying so hard to follow Jesus,

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Speaker 2: but I just felt so different than everyone else. And

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Speaker 2: I was trying to live like this double life where

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Speaker 2: I would go to church, go to small group, all

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Speaker 2: the things, and then I'd be drinking in my car

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Speaker 2: and claiming sobriety. And so I was trying to mesh

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Speaker 2: the two. In fact, I had people were aware of

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Speaker 2: my struggles. And so I was claiming that sobriety was

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Speaker 2: But I was still drinking and hiding it. And so

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Speaker 2: I remember having like a nine month chip celebration with

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Speaker 2: some of these church people. And I was not nine

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Speaker 2: months sober. But I collected the chip and we celebrated.

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Speaker 2: And then I went and got drunk after and nobody knew.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, how are these people in church? Like,

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Speaker 2: what am I missing? But I was trying to get

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Speaker 2: better before coming to Jesus. And I just didn't understand.

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Speaker 2: that he wanted me as I was.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask you something there? Yeah. Okay, so you

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Speaker 1: move in with this roommate. You say, hey, I'm a Christian.

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Speaker 1: And even just what you said there, like, I really hadn't. Like,

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Speaker 1: would you have considered yourself a Christian before? Or were

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Speaker 1: you kind of like, I was just plain dress up?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to say because I had I had

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Speaker 2: a grandmother who was a very strong believer, and she

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Speaker 2: poured into me. And I did have, you know, salvation

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Speaker 2: prayer early on. I wouldn't say I really walked with

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Speaker 2: Jesus until later. And so did I have a faith background? Yes.

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Speaker 2: Did I know what salvation was? Yes. But it's really

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Speaker 2: hard to say because I hadn't gone two feet in yet.

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Speaker 1: So that's the knowledge. Thank you. Thank you, Kim. Roommate Kim.

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Speaker 1: And then the other question I have is, OK, so

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Speaker 1: you had talked about like pretending, if you will, to

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Speaker 1: be sober. What happened? Like, how did it get to

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Speaker 1: the point where you had to come out, if you will,

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Speaker 1: and say, oh, yeah, I do have a problem. I'm

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Speaker 1: getting sober, even though you were pretending like. like, what

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Speaker 1: made you at least start pretending? I mean, did it

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Speaker 1: get really bad and people were starting to call you

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Speaker 1: out and you're like, okay, I'm going to just pretend

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Speaker 1: to be sober? Like, what was that like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was several instances where, you know, people had to,

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Speaker 2: I was so wasted that they had to call the

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Speaker 2: police or 911. And so people are like, you have

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Speaker 2: a problem. I fought that for a little bit. And

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Speaker 2: then I was like, yeah, I have I think I

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Speaker 2: actually might. I was starting to realize that as well.

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Speaker 2: And so I started going to Alcoholics Anonymous. And I

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Speaker 2: wasn't even 21 at this point. And so I was

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Speaker 2: going to AA and I was doing the AA thing.

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Speaker 2: And so the people walking with me in the church

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Speaker 2: scene It was like, oh, yeah, she's sober. She's doing recovery.

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Speaker 2: Everything's fine. And so I felt like I had to

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Speaker 2: kind of keep that together and keep that image. Now,

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Speaker 2: I would show up drunk to AA and the AA

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Speaker 2: people were fine. Like I could be myself around them.

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Speaker 2: They knew what was going on. But it was the

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Speaker 2: church people where I felt like I had to be

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Speaker 2: more like them in the sense of what I was seeing.

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Speaker 2: That they had things all together.

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Speaker 1: So can I can I press into that a little bit?

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Speaker 1: Because I think what you bring up there when you

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Speaker 1: say that is what I think is one of the

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Speaker 1: crises in the church is even just that dichotomy of

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Speaker 1: or that. Yeah. Where you. You're like, OK, I'll show

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Speaker 1: up to a drunk, but I'm going to pretend with

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Speaker 1: the church people. You know, and it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I hosted weekly recovery meeting online and and I've had

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Speaker 1: people show up drunk there and I love it. I

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Speaker 1: love it because I want them to know. Did I

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Speaker 1: like call them out or say something? No, but I

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Speaker 1: want them to know that they can show up as

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Speaker 1: they are. that we're still going to work. We're still

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Speaker 1: going to talk about truth. We're still going to point

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Speaker 1: to Jesus, right? But it's just a problem to me

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Speaker 1: in the church today that people feel like they can

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Speaker 1: be more real in a secular AA recovery environment than

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Speaker 1: they can be in church. And so I think that

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Speaker 1: was your reality, right? and I guess like you know

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't expect you to like pontificate here

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Speaker 1: but but why was that the case for you.

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Speaker 2: You know it's it's funny because even what you just

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Speaker 2: said I have so many clients that come to me

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Speaker 2: and it's the same thing they walk away from the

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Speaker 2: church and they go to AA um which was kind

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Speaker 2: of like my experience too and we'll get into that

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Speaker 2: but the people in AA, you're expected to be a mess.

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Speaker 2: Like it's just understood that to earn a seat in

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Speaker 2: that room, it's because you're a mess. And I feel

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Speaker 2: like in the church that it's just not like that,

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Speaker 2: like that's, or at least that's not communicated.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Does that answer your question?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no. I mean, I think that's a great, I

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Speaker 1: think that's a great response. Right. And I think you know,

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Speaker 1: we get caught up in the church of like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, but I'm not saying that people have to

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Speaker 1: show up perfect, you know, but then on the other side,

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Speaker 1: we make such a big deal out of like, and

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Speaker 1: not to say that it's not like fruit is important, right? But,

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Speaker 1: you know, we get really binary with it, right? That

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Speaker 1: it's either like, well, if they really are saved and

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Speaker 1: coming to church, then then they're, you know, they shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be struggling with this or they shouldn't have this or

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Speaker 1: they shouldn't blah.

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Speaker 2: Blah, blah.

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Speaker 1: They shouldn't, shouldn't, shouldn't, shouldn't, shouldn't. And I'm like, man,

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Speaker 1: bring that to Jesus. Show up that way.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So that like when you expose it, it can be healed,

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Speaker 1: you know? Right.

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Speaker 2: So, and give the Holy Spirit room to do his thing,

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Speaker 2: you know?

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: And that's, that can be missing too. And I love

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Speaker 2: your chapter about messy sanctification. It's like, Yeah, we're believers.

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Speaker 2: We're still going to struggle. Like, it is so messy.

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Speaker 2: Read the Bible. It's messy. So, yeah.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you say that. I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: you know, the epilogue to my book, I talk about Gideon.

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Speaker 1: And I use it kind of as a charge, right? And,

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Speaker 1: you know, the angel says to Gideon, you know, when

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Speaker 1: Gideon's like, you don't realize I'm the runt of the litter.

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Speaker 1: You're telling me I'm going to deliver Israel. And then

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Speaker 1: he's like, go in the strength you have. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know why I was thinking about this yesterday. I

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Speaker 1: was driving home from a speaking engagement. And it was

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Speaker 1: like I was reminded that later in the story of Gideon,

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Speaker 1: after he defeats the entire Midianite army with only like

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Speaker 1: 300 men, you know, that Gideon, like it goes on

415
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Speaker 1: to say, and don't quote me exactly on this. I

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Speaker 1: forgot to look it up again. but it was either

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Speaker 1: him and or his sons that basically just like, they

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Speaker 1: started worshiping Gideon. And, and like the, you know, part

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Speaker 1: of the idea of why that's in there is to show,

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Speaker 1: look at even this guy, right. Ended up having trust

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Speaker 1: and faith and defeating this thing. And then so very quickly,

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Speaker 1: you know, either himself or doesn't teach his children that,

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Speaker 1: you know, to honor God and to look to, to

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Speaker 1: who actually delivered them. And it's just like, Hey, one

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Speaker 1: more example, one more example of how these great people

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Speaker 1: in the Bible that we hold up, you know, Gideon's

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Speaker 1: brave 300 and yet look at, you know, fall after

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Speaker 1: fall after fall. And that is us, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So that was a little tangent, but anyway, so you,

430
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,590
Speaker 1: you get, um, You know, you talk about that nine month,

431
00:28:00,650 --> 00:28:05,750
Speaker 1: you're kind of faking it, pretending to be sober, going

432
00:28:05,790 --> 00:28:12,440
Speaker 1: to church and asking the question. So pick up there. Yeah.

433
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 2: And then the mental health piece really shifted and got

434
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,980
Speaker 2: a lot worse. And so I was no longer able

435
00:28:21,020 --> 00:28:25,850
Speaker 2: to hide how bad I was doing. And so. the

436
00:28:25,910 --> 00:28:28,570
Speaker 2: believers that were doing life with me, it kind of

437
00:28:28,609 --> 00:28:32,129
Speaker 2: just got to where they almost, they couldn't handle it.

438
00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:34,929
Speaker 2: And it was a lot. I mean, I was in

439
00:28:34,970 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: and out of psychiatric hospitals. It was intense. But there,

440
00:28:40,740 --> 00:28:46,300
Speaker 2: you know, I just felt so different from the church

441
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,830
Speaker 2: that I decided to walk away altogether. And AA was

442
00:28:51,090 --> 00:28:54,010
Speaker 2: a safe place for me. And so that's what I decided.

443
00:28:54,090 --> 00:28:59,430
Speaker 2: And so I kind of left faith behind, bid my

444
00:28:59,470 --> 00:29:03,690
Speaker 2: farewell to any friends that were believers, latched on to

445
00:29:03,730 --> 00:29:08,030
Speaker 2: people that were in recovery or not in recovery. And

446
00:29:08,210 --> 00:29:12,060
Speaker 2: so walked away from faith at that point. Mental health escalated,

447
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 2: drinking escalated, drug use escalated. I ended up in rehab.

448
00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: And to give you a picture of how bad my

449
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: mental health was, I got kicked out of rehab After

450
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,540
Speaker 2: two weeks, instead of staying for 90 days, it's not

451
00:29:27,660 --> 00:29:33,250
Speaker 2: easy to get kicked out of rehab. So that just gives,

452
00:29:33,490 --> 00:29:36,210
Speaker 2: you know, a pretty clear picture of like, you're going

453
00:29:36,250 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 2: to a place where the worst of the work like

454
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: you're in a bad position and even they couldn't handle

455
00:29:43,580 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: it um and so they tried to refer me.

456
00:29:46,340 --> 00:29:51,209
Speaker 1: And was it like you just weren't um were you

457
00:29:51,290 --> 00:29:53,750
Speaker 1: not like interested in taking medication were you just not

458
00:29:53,790 --> 00:29:56,170
Speaker 1: doing the work to try to get that under like

459
00:29:56,650 --> 00:29:58,790
Speaker 1: When you say it got worse and you get kicked out,

460
00:29:58,830 --> 00:30:01,110
Speaker 1: like what does that mean? Like what does that look like?

461
00:30:01,790 --> 00:30:06,100
Speaker 2: Yeah, the medication piece like just wasn't willing to do

462
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,340
Speaker 2: any of the things recommended, but also just I was

463
00:30:10,420 --> 00:30:13,700
Speaker 2: so unstable. I would just go and flip a chair

464
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,830
Speaker 2: or throw something for no reason. And so it got

465
00:30:18,970 --> 00:30:23,670
Speaker 2: almost to be dangerous for other people. So, yeah, it

466
00:30:23,690 --> 00:30:26,260
Speaker 2: was pretty intense.

467
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:33,490
Speaker 1: Was there like an anger? Like what was kind of,

468
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: you know, simmering in your heart at that point?

469
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,770
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't actually think it was anger at all.

470
00:30:40,790 --> 00:30:45,110
Speaker 2: I think it was just this helpless feeling. I felt

471
00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:48,970
Speaker 2: crazy at all times. And it was this inner turmoil

472
00:30:48,990 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: that I talked about early on that, I can't even

473
00:30:54,020 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: describe it. It was just so dark. Like my mind

474
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,330
Speaker 2: was so dark and I didn't know how to communicate that.

475
00:31:03,790 --> 00:31:06,830
Speaker 2: And I think that just came out sideways at all points.

476
00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:09,670
Speaker 2: Like me throwing a chair wasn't because I was mad.

477
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:13,310
Speaker 2: I was in so much pain, but didn't know how

478
00:31:13,370 --> 00:31:14,250
Speaker 2: to communicate it.

479
00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:20,020
Speaker 1: And when you say in, you were in so much pain,

480
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: is it, and I know you mentioned this a little bit,

481
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,610
Speaker 1: but like, what was that pain from?

482
00:31:30,170 --> 00:31:34,170
Speaker 2: Yeah. And again, I mean, I, I, it's a lot

483
00:31:34,210 --> 00:31:38,459
Speaker 2: of things. It's the mental health, it's trauma that again,

484
00:31:38,660 --> 00:31:43,460
Speaker 2: more questions than answers at this point. Um, drinking and

485
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: drugs like that does something to your brain. It was lies. Um,

486
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,420
Speaker 2: I was lying about so much that I could, I

487
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,710
Speaker 2: could barely keep up myself. Um, I ruined every relationship

488
00:31:56,830 --> 00:31:59,670
Speaker 2: I was in, friendship, like all of it. And so

489
00:31:59,870 --> 00:32:04,170
Speaker 2: those things bubbled up to create just this pain, this

490
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: darkness that I had to live with.

491
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you get kicked out of rehab.

492
00:32:10,740 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: Got kicked out of rehab. They tried to refer me

493
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,300
Speaker 2: somewhere else. I just decided to go home. At that point,

494
00:32:16,340 --> 00:32:18,959
Speaker 2: I was like, well, I'm too crazy for the church.

495
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,570
Speaker 2: I'm too crazy for rehab. There is not much left

496
00:32:23,710 --> 00:32:29,260
Speaker 2: for me. And so my using escalated a lot to

497
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,900
Speaker 2: a point where I was locked in my apartment and

498
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: covered up the blinds and I was just super isolated

499
00:32:36,980 --> 00:32:40,700
Speaker 2: and using and I was miserable. Excuse me. I was miserable.

500
00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:44,170
Speaker 2: And I ended up reaching out to the rehab and saying,

501
00:32:44,830 --> 00:32:48,070
Speaker 2: can you give me any resources of somewhere close by?

502
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,750
Speaker 2: And so they sent me to a long-term sober living

503
00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:56,750
Speaker 2: halfway house where I got a lot of help there.

504
00:32:57,330 --> 00:33:01,850
Speaker 2: I honestly did. I lived there for over a year.

505
00:33:02,110 --> 00:33:05,110
Speaker 2: It was a very long-term facility. I got a lot

506
00:33:05,270 --> 00:33:08,700
Speaker 2: of therapy, a lot of help for the trauma piece,

507
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,380
Speaker 2: the mental health piece, got stabilized on meds. And it

508
00:33:13,420 --> 00:33:18,540
Speaker 2: was very AA focused, 12-step focused. And I was given

509
00:33:18,580 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: this promise of, okay, if you work the 12 steps,

510
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,540
Speaker 2: if you chair meetings, if you sponsor people, if you

511
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: carry the message and you do all these things, you're

512
00:33:30,460 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: going to stay sober. And so at this point, I'm stable.

513
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: I'm feeling good. I graduate the program. I move out.

514
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: I'm doing everything that they said. And I relapsed. And

515
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 2: I was so shaken by that. I was like, what

516
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,890
Speaker 2: is happening? I'm checking all the boxes. I'm doing everything.

517
00:33:54,670 --> 00:33:58,390
Speaker 2: What's the problem? And my addiction got so bad at

518
00:33:58,430 --> 00:34:00,810
Speaker 2: that point. It was worse than ever to the point

519
00:34:00,830 --> 00:34:03,670
Speaker 2: where I was like, I don't want to do this.

520
00:34:03,870 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: Getting sober again felt like too hard. I didn't want

521
00:34:08,219 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: to put myself through that again just to check all

522
00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:14,739
Speaker 2: the boxes and then relapse like that life felt so

523
00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:18,810
Speaker 2: exhausting to me so what other thing to do but

524
00:34:18,870 --> 00:34:20,670
Speaker 2: to end it and so that's kind of where I

525
00:34:20,690 --> 00:34:22,450
Speaker 2: was at was so.

526
00:34:23,810 --> 00:34:27,430
Speaker 1: Yeah sorry sorry to interrupt like I would take us

527
00:34:27,489 --> 00:34:29,859
Speaker 1: back to you like so how long were you out

528
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: of long-term treatment before.

529
00:34:32,219 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 2: You relapsed I think about two months it wasn't terribly long.

530
00:34:38,420 --> 00:34:45,390
Speaker 1: And what, like, okay, so you're, is it, like, when

531
00:34:45,410 --> 00:34:50,009
Speaker 1: did the thoughts, when did you start even, like, entertaining

532
00:34:51,770 --> 00:34:55,469
Speaker 1: the thought of using again? Like, is it something that

533
00:34:55,510 --> 00:35:00,379
Speaker 1: just quietly crept back in? Or was it like, hey,

534
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,100
Speaker 1: it was just an impulsive decision one time? Like, what,

535
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: what was it?

536
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,700
Speaker 2: It was actually, I went to just a sober gathering

537
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,910
Speaker 2: and a friend that was there hurt my feelings. That's it.

538
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 2: It was minor. She hurt my feelings and I started

539
00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:25,250
Speaker 2: to feel that discomfort, the discomfort that always led me

540
00:35:25,450 --> 00:35:30,069
Speaker 2: to drink in the first place. And I couldn't get

541
00:35:30,130 --> 00:35:32,870
Speaker 2: through that moment. I mean, it was very simple. It

542
00:35:33,070 --> 00:35:37,250
Speaker 2: could have easily been worked out, but I snapped in

543
00:35:37,290 --> 00:35:41,050
Speaker 2: that moment and I felt that pain. And the only

544
00:35:41,150 --> 00:35:44,350
Speaker 2: way I knew how to deal with it was to

545
00:35:44,750 --> 00:35:48,770
Speaker 2: numb it. The tools, the skills, going to a meeting

546
00:35:48,830 --> 00:35:51,390
Speaker 2: didn't help. I went to a meeting, I did some

547
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:54,589
Speaker 2: of these things and it didn't quiet that. And so

548
00:35:54,969 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: that's what happened. I remember it very vividly. I went

549
00:36:00,020 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 2: to a bar, I got wasted. And then from there,

550
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,490
Speaker 2: I went to a drug dealer's house and it got

551
00:36:05,570 --> 00:36:07,350
Speaker 2: crazy really, really fast.

552
00:36:08,770 --> 00:36:09,210
Speaker 3: Wow.

553
00:36:10,950 --> 00:36:15,850
Speaker 1: And so I think, and this is so interesting, right? And,

554
00:36:16,290 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: you know, people who've listened to this podcast and some

555
00:36:20,460 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: of the episodes that we've done is like, you know, listen,

556
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:29,100
Speaker 1: AA can be a tool, you know? And like you said, like,

557
00:36:29,330 --> 00:36:33,070
Speaker 1: you know, that when you were in long-term living and whatnot,

558
00:36:33,130 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: like there was some, you know, some tools that you built, some,

559
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,259
Speaker 1: it was helpful in that way. And I just think

560
00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:45,219
Speaker 1: what's so important about what you're saying and correct me

561
00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong or fill in the gaps or whatnot,

562
00:36:47,390 --> 00:36:52,450
Speaker 1: is that they could only get you so far. And

563
00:36:52,510 --> 00:36:56,509
Speaker 1: when you got to a point where like, even just

564
00:36:56,590 --> 00:37:02,290
Speaker 1: something small like that, You didn't have like you couldn't

565
00:37:02,350 --> 00:37:04,070
Speaker 1: take that to the Lord.

566
00:37:04,810 --> 00:37:05,150
Speaker 2: Right.

567
00:37:05,170 --> 00:37:10,950
Speaker 1: Like you didn't have that greater perspective when Jesus is

568
00:37:10,969 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: your higher power. Right. And when you're following the scriptures

569
00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: and following him in the way that he says. And

570
00:37:18,660 --> 00:37:22,819
Speaker 1: so look, and I'm not saying that everyone who does

571
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,419
Speaker 1: AA is just one hurt feeling away from relapse. That's

572
00:37:26,580 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: not what I'm saying. But I think what your story

573
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: highlights is the danger of when we don't have something

574
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,029
Speaker 1: greater than just a program or steps.

575
00:37:40,690 --> 00:37:42,089
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

576
00:37:43,610 --> 00:37:44,030
Speaker 1: Yeah.

577
00:37:44,170 --> 00:37:47,250
Speaker 2: I mean, I wasn't anchored in anything. I was anchored

578
00:37:47,330 --> 00:37:50,140
Speaker 2: in a program which was shakable.

579
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:51,460
Speaker 3: Right.

580
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 2: And it shook me. And I almost didn't survive it.

581
00:37:56,790 --> 00:37:58,930
Speaker 1: So how long were you kind of, as we say,

582
00:37:59,250 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: as we say in recovery, how long were you back

583
00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:02,979
Speaker 1: out for?

584
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,460
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know exact timeline, but a few months,

585
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: a few really, really bad months. Again, it escalated and

586
00:38:13,340 --> 00:38:15,020
Speaker 2: that's kind of where it got to. I don't know

587
00:38:15,060 --> 00:38:19,700
Speaker 2: if I can do this again. And I'll never forget

588
00:38:19,969 --> 00:38:22,989
Speaker 2: that it was an evening that I thought that or

589
00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 2: an afternoon or something. And it was a Tuesday. And

590
00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:28,779
Speaker 2: this is where some of the good part starts coming in.

591
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 1: Can we skip to the good part? Well, okay, before

592
00:38:33,780 --> 00:38:35,980
Speaker 1: we skip to the good part, let me ask you this.

593
00:38:36,340 --> 00:38:40,100
Speaker 1: Were there people– because at this point, like if you

594
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:45,510
Speaker 1: had been sober for a little bit and– you know,

595
00:38:45,550 --> 00:38:48,770
Speaker 1: maybe you're not isolating. Are there people that are in

596
00:38:48,830 --> 00:38:52,210
Speaker 1: your life that you've invited kind of back in, or

597
00:38:52,270 --> 00:38:55,590
Speaker 1: are you still kind of keeping people at arm's length?

598
00:38:55,710 --> 00:38:58,660
Speaker 1: Is there anyone around you to maybe kind of sound

599
00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:04,379
Speaker 1: the alarm or trying to get you, um, back, you know,

600
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: into a healthy place?

601
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,700
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had pretty much pushed everybody away still. Um,

602
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 2: I didn't have any healthy relationships yet to that point.

603
00:39:15,580 --> 00:39:17,740
Speaker 2: I had been in long term treatment for so long.

604
00:39:17,860 --> 00:39:21,700
Speaker 2: I really didn't even have a ton of contact. And

605
00:39:21,860 --> 00:39:25,890
Speaker 2: I still carried so much shame. It was hard for

606
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:29,070
Speaker 2: me to even like talk to my parents or anybody

607
00:39:29,110 --> 00:39:33,219
Speaker 2: because I was still carrying the shame of everything. So, yeah,

608
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: I didn't I didn't really have anybody to pull me

609
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,100
Speaker 2: back to truth at that point.

610
00:39:38,540 --> 00:39:42,060
Speaker 1: Did they even like at this point, are they aware

611
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,779
Speaker 1: of what you're doing or how bad it is?

612
00:39:46,140 --> 00:39:50,100
Speaker 2: At this point, yes, absolutely. yeah, they, I had actually

613
00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 2: moved in with them and, um, my parents had to

614
00:39:54,420 --> 00:39:57,410
Speaker 2: tell me not to come back until I was willing

615
00:39:57,489 --> 00:39:59,610
Speaker 2: to get the help that I needed, which was super

616
00:39:59,630 --> 00:40:02,810
Speaker 2: hard for them, but I'm grateful for it. Um, cause

617
00:40:02,850 --> 00:40:06,250
Speaker 2: they weren't willing to enable me at that point, but yeah,

618
00:40:06,270 --> 00:40:07,810
Speaker 2: they were aware that it was pretty bad.

619
00:40:09,130 --> 00:40:13,109
Speaker 1: So it's interesting you bring that up. Um, even just

620
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:14,950
Speaker 1: what your parents did, because, you know, I told you

621
00:40:14,989 --> 00:40:17,489
Speaker 1: I was driving home yesterday from a speaking engagement, and

622
00:40:17,530 --> 00:40:22,330
Speaker 1: part of it was we were talking a lot about

623
00:40:22,730 --> 00:40:27,770
Speaker 1: what do you do when you love someone who's struggling? And,

624
00:40:28,210 --> 00:40:33,450
Speaker 1: you know, I think one of the most difficult parts,

625
00:40:33,489 --> 00:40:35,660
Speaker 1: and so if you are a loved one listening to this,

626
00:40:37,540 --> 00:40:46,910
Speaker 1: is we all want and desire, like, just show me

627
00:40:46,930 --> 00:40:50,130
Speaker 1: the steps, right? Like show me the formula, tell me

628
00:40:50,170 --> 00:40:53,530
Speaker 1: what I have to do and I will do it, right?

629
00:40:54,270 --> 00:41:00,170
Speaker 1: And so, you know, the problem though is I think

630
00:41:00,590 --> 00:41:05,970
Speaker 1: it does vary, right? From person to person, from stage

631
00:41:06,090 --> 00:41:11,150
Speaker 1: to stage, depending on what stage someone is in. And

632
00:41:11,210 --> 00:41:16,509
Speaker 1: so on one hand, you know, People come to me

633
00:41:16,530 --> 00:41:18,830
Speaker 1: and ask me for advice and they're like, do I

634
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:21,049
Speaker 1: do tough love? Do I, you know, I feel like

635
00:41:21,310 --> 00:41:25,049
Speaker 1: maybe I'm enabling. And I'm like, it's one of the

636
00:41:25,219 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: hardest questions I face. Yep. 100%.

637
00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 2: Same.

638
00:41:30,739 --> 00:41:36,580
Speaker 1: Yeah. Because it's like, I don't fully know. Like, I

639
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:41,569
Speaker 1: know that after I relapsed and my wife, I mean,

640
00:41:41,590 --> 00:41:43,569
Speaker 1: we're sitting in my office. Like, she's like, I can

641
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:48,430
Speaker 1: picture her like right in front of me. And, you know,

642
00:41:48,469 --> 00:41:49,870
Speaker 1: and I talk about this in the book, but like

643
00:41:50,690 --> 00:41:56,170
Speaker 1: her response to my relapse was so grace filled that

644
00:41:56,190 --> 00:41:59,420
Speaker 1: it was literally life changing. I have not touched a

645
00:41:59,460 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 1: drop of alcohol since then. Could she have laid the

646
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,060
Speaker 1: smack down? Could she have kicked me out and said,

647
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,020
Speaker 1: I'm not going to enable him? You know, this is it.

648
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:12,260
Speaker 1: He needs to understand.

649
00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:12,739
Speaker 2: She could have.

650
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: And I can tell you that I think for me,

651
00:42:17,070 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: that would have pushed me away. Yeah. But for you

652
00:42:22,010 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: at this moment, I mean, you, you, you just speak

653
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,460
Speaker 1: very highly of what your parents did. Right. And so

654
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,779
Speaker 1: I think the temptation for some people is they hear

655
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: my story and they say, okay, it's only this kind

656
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:37,399
Speaker 1: of like softer approach, or it's only, you know, what,

657
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: what Brett did, my wife, it's only what she did. Or,

658
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:43,100
Speaker 1: or then you maybe hear Anne's story, whatever. And you said, okay, well,

659
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,250
Speaker 1: then it has to be Oh, wait, no, it's that way.

660
00:42:45,550 --> 00:42:47,430
Speaker 1: And it has to be what her what her parents did.

661
00:42:47,469 --> 00:42:51,180
Speaker 1: And so, you know, you kind of agreed and said

662
00:42:51,219 --> 00:42:54,180
Speaker 1: it's the hardest thing. But I'm curious your thoughts a

663
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: little bit, especially as someone who is now a licensed counselor.

664
00:43:00,580 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: What do you say? How do you how do you

665
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 1: react to that? We'll be right back after this.

666
00:43:08,140 --> 00:43:11,550
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love how you said there's not a formula.

667
00:43:11,989 --> 00:43:14,819
Speaker 2: because I say that probably 50 times a day when

668
00:43:14,860 --> 00:43:19,220
Speaker 2: I'm at work. And it's so hard. I hate having

669
00:43:19,260 --> 00:43:22,180
Speaker 2: to say that. Like, I wish I had a formula,

670
00:43:23,020 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: especially with the families, you know, walking alongside a loved

671
00:43:28,780 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: one who is struggling with addiction. I honestly, so I

672
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 2: have a lot of friends who are addicts because I

673
00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:38,590
Speaker 2: was in and out of treatment. So I collected friends

674
00:43:38,630 --> 00:43:39,130
Speaker 2: along the way.

675
00:43:39,150 --> 00:43:39,770
Speaker 1: Yeah.

676
00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:43,100
Speaker 2: And they're great. I love them. Some of my best

677
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,460
Speaker 2: friends and a couple of them are out right now

678
00:43:47,060 --> 00:43:51,180
Speaker 2: and it's devastating. And so I've been on both sides

679
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:54,740
Speaker 2: of this and I don't actually know which one's worse,

680
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 2: being the addict or the one watching somebody suffer from addiction.

681
00:43:58,510 --> 00:44:00,589
Speaker 2: I have no idea. I can't answer that because they're

682
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,890
Speaker 2: both equally so painful. And it is so case by case.

683
00:44:06,130 --> 00:44:11,230
Speaker 2: I have watched friends who have you know, they've responded

684
00:44:11,310 --> 00:44:15,370
Speaker 2: well to the grace approach. And then I've had friends

685
00:44:15,570 --> 00:44:18,149
Speaker 2: not respond well to it. Like it is so case

686
00:44:18,190 --> 00:44:22,350
Speaker 2: by case. I hope everyone, I wish that everybody who

687
00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:26,610
Speaker 2: was in that position had the Holy Spirit because outside

688
00:44:26,630 --> 00:44:28,750
Speaker 2: of the Holy Spirit, it's hard to know. It's hard

689
00:44:28,810 --> 00:44:32,350
Speaker 2: to know what the next step is. But at the

690
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:35,570
Speaker 2: end of the day, it's just hard to love somebody

691
00:44:35,630 --> 00:44:36,910
Speaker 2: who's suffering from addiction.

692
00:44:37,170 --> 00:44:37,330
Speaker 1: Yeah.

693
00:44:37,450 --> 00:44:37,950
Speaker 2: It's painful.

694
00:44:37,969 --> 00:44:38,049
Speaker 3: Yeah.

695
00:44:39,890 --> 00:44:43,370
Speaker 1: So your parents, they say, hey, don't come back. Like

696
00:44:43,390 --> 00:44:47,010
Speaker 1: you've got to, something's got to change. And what happens

697
00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:47,390
Speaker 1: from there?

698
00:44:49,110 --> 00:44:54,469
Speaker 2: So somewhere in that time is that day where I

699
00:44:54,830 --> 00:44:59,150
Speaker 2: feel like I can't do it anymore. And I, it

700
00:45:00,430 --> 00:45:02,350
Speaker 2: was a Tuesday and I'll never forget it was a

701
00:45:02,410 --> 00:45:07,029
Speaker 2: Tuesday because I Googled churches open on Tuesday. Because I

702
00:45:07,030 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 2: was like, it's not Sunday. Like it's not Wednesday. And

703
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,070
Speaker 2: there was a church called Watermark that has, because I

704
00:45:15,090 --> 00:45:17,529
Speaker 2: was in Dallas at the time, and they have a

705
00:45:17,790 --> 00:45:22,629
Speaker 2: young adults program called The Porch. And so they said

706
00:45:22,670 --> 00:45:26,270
Speaker 2: that they had, like church was happening. And I was like, great,

707
00:45:26,450 --> 00:45:29,810
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to church because at this point

708
00:45:29,890 --> 00:45:34,150
Speaker 2: it has to be Jesus or nothing. I have tried everything.

709
00:45:35,830 --> 00:45:39,830
Speaker 1: I was going to say, what brought you to say that, right?

710
00:45:40,130 --> 00:45:44,339
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was that inner turmoil feeling that I was

711
00:45:44,380 --> 00:45:48,620
Speaker 2: feeling again, where I had all the things that I

712
00:45:48,660 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 2: had ever done to try to help it, to try

713
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:56,720
Speaker 2: to soothe it. And nothing sounded appealing, not even the alcohol,

714
00:45:56,739 --> 00:45:58,950
Speaker 2: the drugs. I didn't want any of it. I felt

715
00:45:59,050 --> 00:46:03,100
Speaker 2: so empty and depleted. And it was really just thinking

716
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 2: back to my roots, like stories that my parents told

717
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: me from the Bible early on. My grandmother, who was

718
00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 2: very anchored in Jesus, even some of the believers who

719
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,260
Speaker 2: had walked alongside me at some point, it was just

720
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,890
Speaker 2: remembering that. And at that point, I was like, I mean,

721
00:46:21,989 --> 00:46:24,990
Speaker 2: AA talks about the spiritual aspect, right? It's all about

722
00:46:25,130 --> 00:46:28,570
Speaker 2: higher power. So I had changed my higher power multiple

723
00:46:28,610 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 2: times in my program. And at this point, it was like,

724
00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:36,300
Speaker 2: none of that's working. Let's go back to the basics.

725
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: It has to be Jesus or nothing. So I'm going

726
00:46:40,140 --> 00:46:43,910
Speaker 2: to go find out essentially was that moment before I

727
00:46:44,030 --> 00:46:47,069
Speaker 2: end things or before I give back into anything else.

728
00:46:47,570 --> 00:46:51,069
Speaker 2: I'm going to go make sure it's not Jesus, which

729
00:46:51,130 --> 00:46:58,090
Speaker 2: led me to watermark on a Tuesday. So, yeah.

730
00:46:58,110 --> 00:47:03,779
Speaker 1: So you walk in. You go to Watermark. Like, what

731
00:47:03,820 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: starts happening?

732
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:09,660
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I have drugs in my car. I'm

733
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,770
Speaker 2: a disaster, right? Like, I'm not put together by any means.

734
00:47:14,969 --> 00:47:17,810
Speaker 2: I walk in and I've been in church enough at

735
00:47:17,850 --> 00:47:20,170
Speaker 2: this point to know you look for somebody with a

736
00:47:20,190 --> 00:47:22,770
Speaker 2: lanyard on, right? And they're going to have all the answers.

737
00:47:24,070 --> 00:47:25,549
Speaker 1: And how old are you at this point, by the way?

738
00:47:25,550 --> 00:47:26,300
Speaker 2: 28, maybe.

739
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:26,530
Speaker 1: Okay.

740
00:47:29,510 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, about 28. So I go into Watermark. I'm looking

741
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 2: for a lanyard. The first girl that I see with

742
00:47:37,739 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 2: the lanyard, she's just like this sweet, young adult with

743
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,939
Speaker 2: the lanyard. I walk up and I say, I need

744
00:47:44,980 --> 00:47:48,129
Speaker 2: an effing miracle. But, you know, with the actual word.

745
00:47:48,969 --> 00:47:53,110
Speaker 2: I just look her dead in the face. And she

746
00:47:54,150 --> 00:47:55,850
Speaker 2: didn't know what to say. So she went and got

747
00:47:55,890 --> 00:47:57,130
Speaker 2: somebody else with the lanyard.

748
00:47:59,050 --> 00:48:03,690
Speaker 1: She went and got lanyard level two. Level two lanyard.

749
00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:07,009
Speaker 2: Over here, please. They need one. Exactly. And then they

750
00:48:07,050 --> 00:48:10,790
Speaker 2: got level three, you know, because this is that kind

751
00:48:10,850 --> 00:48:12,109
Speaker 2: of experience.

752
00:48:12,610 --> 00:48:14,800
Speaker 1: We need a level three lanyard here.

753
00:48:17,219 --> 00:48:19,779
Speaker 2: That's funny. That's exactly what it was like. And so

754
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: at that point, this group of people... Surround me. They're

755
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,060
Speaker 2: trying to get me to go sit in and listen

756
00:48:26,140 --> 00:48:28,380
Speaker 2: to the message. And I'm like, no, I need a

757
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,219
Speaker 2: miracle and I need it now. You don't understand. And

758
00:48:32,260 --> 00:48:36,379
Speaker 2: these sweet people just sit with me. They prayed over me.

759
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,970
Speaker 2: They talked to me. They spent a couple hours with

760
00:48:40,050 --> 00:48:44,569
Speaker 2: me listening to my story. I felt safe around them.

761
00:48:44,590 --> 00:48:49,010
Speaker 2: And then they told me about a 12 step recovery

762
00:48:49,070 --> 00:48:51,830
Speaker 2: program that they have at their church. It's called Regeneration.

763
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 2: And in my head, I'm like, yeah, yeah, I've done

764
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: all the things, right? Like I've done the 12 steps.

765
00:49:00,590 --> 00:49:03,259
Speaker 2: I could teach that for you. But there was something

766
00:49:03,300 --> 00:49:06,969
Speaker 2: about the way they talked about it, where Jesus was

767
00:49:07,010 --> 00:49:10,450
Speaker 2: a part of it, that it was appealing. And so

768
00:49:10,910 --> 00:49:14,450
Speaker 2: I have no memory of, because that meeting was on

769
00:49:14,469 --> 00:49:17,270
Speaker 2: a Monday. Well, I was at church on a Tuesday.

770
00:49:17,290 --> 00:49:20,310
Speaker 2: The next region meeting was on a Monday. I have

771
00:49:20,430 --> 00:49:24,180
Speaker 2: no idea what happened in between there. But I did

772
00:49:24,260 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: show up to church on that Monday to go to region.

773
00:49:28,739 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: And by God's grace, the girl that was leading the meeting,

774
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,370
Speaker 2: the group that I was in, was a recovering alcoholic

775
00:49:37,570 --> 00:49:40,390
Speaker 2: who found a lot of help in AA and then

776
00:49:40,570 --> 00:49:45,020
Speaker 2: basically maxed out and relapsed and got into a lot

777
00:49:45,060 --> 00:49:47,739
Speaker 2: of trouble. And she ended up at the church. And

778
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:52,140
Speaker 2: I related to that story so much. I felt like

779
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 2: she had the street cred, you know, like she had

780
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 2: been to AA. She understood being a mess. And so

781
00:49:59,969 --> 00:50:03,270
Speaker 2: I went up and talked to her after. Her name

782
00:50:03,310 --> 00:50:06,899
Speaker 2: was Alana. And she just took me under her wing.

783
00:50:06,940 --> 00:50:09,420
Speaker 2: Like she understood the language I was speaking.

784
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:09,899
Speaker 3: Right.

785
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,100
Speaker 2: And I needed that. I needed somebody to sit with

786
00:50:13,140 --> 00:50:17,299
Speaker 2: me that understood. And she did. And I think that

787
00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:21,620
Speaker 2: from that moment forward was when, you know, things didn't

788
00:50:21,660 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 2: change right away, but it really shifted for me because

789
00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 2: here were some people that saw the mess and that

790
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 2: understood it and were willing to walk through the mud

791
00:50:31,700 --> 00:50:34,569
Speaker 2: with me. And so, yeah.

792
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:39,540
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, because I think this is important,

793
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:45,469
Speaker 1: and maybe it's a little foggy, but, you know, I'm

794
00:50:45,489 --> 00:50:49,750
Speaker 1: just so struck by what you said about those people

795
00:50:49,890 --> 00:50:52,549
Speaker 1: who surrounded you, you know, when you first showed up

796
00:50:52,590 --> 00:51:00,549
Speaker 1: to church. And because I think sometimes, maybe many times, A,

797
00:51:00,590 --> 00:51:03,580
Speaker 1: we don't have enough people just willing to sit, you know,

798
00:51:03,780 --> 00:51:07,940
Speaker 1: in the mess. Mm-hmm. And we tend to, I think,

799
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: as a Christian community, jump right away into trying to fix,

800
00:51:16,300 --> 00:51:19,580
Speaker 1: you know, well, you know, Jesus says don't be anxious

801
00:51:19,620 --> 00:51:22,879
Speaker 1: about anything, honey. Let me just, you know, take, you know,

802
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: and whether so we jump into into quoting scripture at

803
00:51:27,420 --> 00:51:32,670
Speaker 1: people or platitudes or trite phrases. Yeah. And so I'm

804
00:51:32,730 --> 00:51:35,830
Speaker 1: just curious, like when you say they listened to me,

805
00:51:35,870 --> 00:51:38,710
Speaker 1: when they sat with me for two hours, I'm just curious,

806
00:51:38,730 --> 00:51:46,350
Speaker 1: like very practically, what did that, what did that sound like? Like,

807
00:51:46,370 --> 00:51:50,110
Speaker 1: what were they saying? Were they not saying really anything?

808
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,980
Speaker 1: Were they just asking you questions about your story? Because

809
00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:01,030
Speaker 1: I just wonder if we can glean some helpful wisdom

810
00:52:01,090 --> 00:52:01,489
Speaker 1: from that.

811
00:52:02,489 --> 00:52:05,969
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it was a lot of listening to

812
00:52:06,030 --> 00:52:10,170
Speaker 2: my turmoil and not being afraid of it. That was

813
00:52:10,230 --> 00:52:13,850
Speaker 2: probably the biggest piece was I felt safe to say

814
00:52:13,910 --> 00:52:17,549
Speaker 2: what was going through my head. without somebody panicking. There

815
00:52:17,590 --> 00:52:21,610
Speaker 2: wasn't panic involved. I was treated like a human being,

816
00:52:21,770 --> 00:52:25,710
Speaker 2: not just somebody in crisis. And they just sat there

817
00:52:25,810 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 2: and we talked about what was going on with me,

818
00:52:28,820 --> 00:52:32,939
Speaker 2: but they, you know, we talked about like just random things.

819
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:36,500
Speaker 2: There's like this little pond at Watermark and we sat

820
00:52:36,540 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 2: around the pond.

821
00:52:38,219 --> 00:52:39,140
Speaker 1: It's very beautiful.

822
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,489
Speaker 2: It is very, it's very nice.

823
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,379
Speaker 1: Sometimes when I'm in the area, I'll just go there

824
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:48,900
Speaker 1: and like work. There's like free wifi, you know, coffee shop.

825
00:52:48,940 --> 00:52:53,300
Speaker 2: It's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to tell you a

826
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,859
Speaker 2: story about that later, but yeah. So we sat around

827
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,259
Speaker 2: the pond. We're just talking about life. I felt cared for,

828
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't again, it wasn't just this immediate

829
00:53:03,180 --> 00:53:08,259
Speaker 2: crisis situation. I was just a person to them and

830
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: that's what I got to be. And, Honestly, I'd love

831
00:53:13,140 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 2: to even share a story of one of those girls

832
00:53:15,180 --> 00:53:19,140
Speaker 2: specifically a couple weeks later. Because, again, it's not like

833
00:53:19,180 --> 00:53:23,299
Speaker 2: I just got sober after that night. Like, it was messy. Like,

834
00:53:23,390 --> 00:53:25,630
Speaker 2: I was still messy. I was still showing up messy.

835
00:53:26,210 --> 00:53:28,489
Speaker 2: And she had called me or something one night. It

836
00:53:28,530 --> 00:53:31,290
Speaker 2: was later in the evening. And, you know, I told

837
00:53:31,330 --> 00:53:35,509
Speaker 2: her that I was using. I was struggling. And she

838
00:53:35,570 --> 00:53:39,370
Speaker 2: was at this, like, 24-hour coffee shop that's in Dallas.

839
00:53:39,450 --> 00:53:41,989
Speaker 2: And she's like, hey, why don't you come hang out?

840
00:53:42,370 --> 00:53:44,850
Speaker 2: And it took me probably four hours to actually get

841
00:53:44,890 --> 00:53:48,610
Speaker 2: there because that's a very addict thing to do. And

842
00:53:48,630 --> 00:53:51,450
Speaker 2: she waited. She just worked on stuff and waited in

843
00:53:51,489 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 2: case I came. And so it's at this point, like

844
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,819
Speaker 2: 2 or 3 a.m., this girl has a job. She

845
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,779
Speaker 2: has to work the next morning. And she invites me in.

846
00:54:00,860 --> 00:54:03,180
Speaker 2: I just sit there. She buys me a coffee. She's

847
00:54:03,260 --> 00:54:06,859
Speaker 2: just talking. We're just hanging out. I take a break

848
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,900
Speaker 2: and go smoke meth in my car. And I come

849
00:54:09,940 --> 00:54:13,140
Speaker 2: back in. And she knows everything. She knows I'm doing that.

850
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:17,420
Speaker 2: She doesn't panic. And she still sat with me. And

851
00:54:17,660 --> 00:54:21,470
Speaker 2: I saw so much of Jesus in that moment that

852
00:54:21,610 --> 00:54:26,010
Speaker 2: I was allowed to be broken and messy and still

853
00:54:26,250 --> 00:54:29,350
Speaker 2: cared for. And so that's the kind of people from

854
00:54:29,410 --> 00:54:32,690
Speaker 2: the church that were walking with me at this point,

855
00:54:33,290 --> 00:54:34,790
Speaker 2: which is great. Yeah.

856
00:54:34,910 --> 00:54:39,469
Speaker 1: Wow. That's powerful. Thank you for sharing that. All right.

857
00:54:39,489 --> 00:54:40,390
Speaker 1: So you show up to regen.

858
00:54:41,380 --> 00:54:46,859
Speaker 2: So, yeah, start doing region. Again, these people are just

859
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 2: walking with me. It's I'm a disaster. I've got I'm

860
00:54:50,700 --> 00:54:54,130
Speaker 2: off my meds. I'm I'm drinking. I'm using all the

861
00:54:54,190 --> 00:54:56,569
Speaker 2: things and I'm still I'm going to church and I'm

862
00:54:56,670 --> 00:54:59,930
Speaker 2: learning and I'm sitting with these people and they're just

863
00:55:00,030 --> 00:55:05,970
Speaker 2: walking with me. You had John Elmore on your podcast

864
00:55:06,260 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 2: at one point.

865
00:55:06,820 --> 00:55:07,580
Speaker 1: Yeah.

866
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,830
Speaker 2: He was a part of this, too. He saw me

867
00:55:12,010 --> 00:55:15,169
Speaker 2: every time he'd see me at region. He would, you know,

868
00:55:15,290 --> 00:55:18,430
Speaker 2: speak words of truth over me and just encourage me.

869
00:55:18,650 --> 00:55:21,330
Speaker 2: And those are the people. They just saw me. They

870
00:55:21,350 --> 00:55:24,330
Speaker 2: just let me come and show up as a mess

871
00:55:24,489 --> 00:55:27,049
Speaker 2: and let the Holy Spirit work in my heart. It

872
00:55:27,090 --> 00:55:30,320
Speaker 2: was incredible. And so I kept going to region. I

873
00:55:30,340 --> 00:55:35,180
Speaker 2: got put in a group. It's like a 12-step group

874
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 2: that you're in with the same people every week. And

875
00:55:38,219 --> 00:55:42,500
Speaker 2: that enters in Kim. She's my roommate now. She was

876
00:55:42,540 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 2: my leader then. And so she was my region leader.

877
00:55:46,580 --> 00:55:50,720
Speaker 2: And this group of people just walked with me through

878
00:55:50,739 --> 00:55:53,060
Speaker 2: the mess. I was doing the curriculum. I was doing

879
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:57,290
Speaker 2: the 12 steps. But this time, Jesus was there. the

880
00:55:57,390 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 2: center of the 12 steps, which really shifts it when

881
00:56:01,910 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 2: Jesus becomes the center because it's anchored in something that's

882
00:56:06,660 --> 00:56:11,339
Speaker 2: hopeful and it's less shakable. And so I was doing

883
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 2: this regen work. I'm going to church. I'm seeing the

884
00:56:16,140 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 2: love of Christ through people in a way that I

885
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 2: just hadn't at this point. And then that discomfort starts

886
00:56:26,180 --> 00:56:31,580
Speaker 2: happening again. this feeling of I'm crazy. I'm too crazy.

887
00:56:31,739 --> 00:56:35,540
Speaker 2: I'll never be like them. I'm still having that disconnect

888
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 2: of it's about Jesus.

889
00:56:36,860 --> 00:56:37,100
Speaker 3: Right.

890
00:56:38,060 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 2: And so at this point, I decide to drive to Austin.

891
00:56:44,420 --> 00:56:46,259
Speaker 2: I don't live in, I live in Austin now. I

892
00:56:46,300 --> 00:56:50,489
Speaker 2: didn't at the time. So I drive to Austin. I relapse.

893
00:56:50,910 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 2: I'm Drinking, I'm doing all the things. And what I

894
00:56:55,860 --> 00:56:58,060
Speaker 2: was going to tell you about the pond actually happened

895
00:56:58,300 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 2: in Austin. I was at a bar on 6th Street

896
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:04,540
Speaker 2: and I was plastered and I sat next to this

897
00:57:04,620 --> 00:57:07,460
Speaker 2: guy and I told him all about Watermark and all

898
00:57:07,500 --> 00:57:10,840
Speaker 2: about Jesus and how he should go to this church

899
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,900
Speaker 2: with a beautiful pond and just sit by the pond

900
00:57:13,980 --> 00:57:18,860
Speaker 2: because it's peaceful. Like I had seen something that was

901
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:22,910
Speaker 2: better and I knew it even in that moment. Um,

902
00:57:23,310 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 2: and so, yeah, yeah. So I go back to my hotel, um,

903
00:57:29,450 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 2: and I'm just miserable and I'm like, why am I

904
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,460
Speaker 2: like this? And I'm literally have my region book with me.

905
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:39,540
Speaker 2: I'm reading through the material. I text Kim, I tell

906
00:57:39,580 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 2: her what's going on. She sends me just like a

907
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 2: screenshot of some, of some page, um, that we were

908
00:57:46,380 --> 00:57:48,780
Speaker 2: working on with scripture on it. That was really helpful

909
00:57:48,820 --> 00:57:53,030
Speaker 2: and meaningful to me. And just to backtrack, because this

910
00:57:53,110 --> 00:57:56,730
Speaker 2: is significant. A couple of days before this, Kim and

911
00:57:56,850 --> 00:57:59,590
Speaker 2: I were in the parking lot of Watermark after our

912
00:57:59,730 --> 00:58:04,250
Speaker 2: regen group. I was smoking a cigarette and people just

913
00:58:04,310 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 2: knew that, right? Like I was just going to be

914
00:58:06,100 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: smoking cigarettes in the parking lot.

915
00:58:07,500 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: It's great.

916
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 2: And she was talking to me and she really called

917
00:58:13,180 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: me out and was like, hey, you, why aren't you

918
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 2: two feet in? What would it be like for you

919
00:58:18,980 --> 00:58:22,700
Speaker 2: to go two feet in? And I got really offended

920
00:58:22,980 --> 00:58:26,220
Speaker 2: by that. I was like, what do you mean? Like,

921
00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:29,230
Speaker 2: I've done more church than you'll ever know. Like, I

922
00:58:29,290 --> 00:58:32,150
Speaker 2: have done all of the things. Of course, I'm two

923
00:58:32,190 --> 00:58:35,750
Speaker 2: feet in. Of course, I've done that. And she gets

924
00:58:36,210 --> 00:58:39,460
Speaker 2: on a parking spot and she puts one foot over

925
00:58:39,500 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 2: and she says, it kind of looks like you're just

926
00:58:41,620 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 2: one foot in. She puts one foot over the line

927
00:58:44,300 --> 00:58:46,650
Speaker 2: and the other foot's you know, on the other side

928
00:58:46,670 --> 00:58:49,090
Speaker 2: of the parking spot. And she jumps over the line

929
00:58:49,140 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 2: and says, what would it be like to be two

930
00:58:50,740 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 2: feet in? And it was just a small moment. I

931
00:58:55,500 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 2: got mad and we didn't talk about it again. Well,

932
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,460
Speaker 2: fast forward a couple of days, I'm at the hotel,

933
00:59:01,660 --> 00:59:05,850
Speaker 2: I'm reading through this region material and the parking spot

934
00:59:06,630 --> 00:59:09,810
Speaker 2: comes to mind. And in that moment, I mean, it's

935
00:59:09,830 --> 00:59:12,540
Speaker 2: totally just Holy Spirit. I was like, you know what?

936
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,980
Speaker 2: Jesus can have all of this. I can't do it anymore.

937
00:59:18,180 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 2: I want to be two feet in. And that is terrifying,

938
00:59:22,140 --> 00:59:23,940
Speaker 2: but I want to do it. And I literally went

939
00:59:23,980 --> 00:59:28,630
Speaker 2: downstairs from the hotel, went to a parking spot, and

940
00:59:28,710 --> 00:59:33,530
Speaker 2: jumped over a line. And I got in my car,

941
00:59:33,790 --> 00:59:36,450
Speaker 2: drove back to Dallas, and I have not had any

942
00:59:36,590 --> 00:59:41,150
Speaker 2: drugs or alcohol since that day, which was about seven

943
00:59:41,190 --> 00:59:45,260
Speaker 2: and a half years ago. And there's so much that

944
00:59:45,300 --> 00:59:48,100
Speaker 2: built up to that moment, right? But it was a

945
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,140
Speaker 2: moment of desperation where I was like, actually, Jesus, you

946
00:59:51,180 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 2: can have all of it. I don't know what it

947
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:57,810
Speaker 2: looks like. You can have it. So. That's like the

948
00:59:57,910 --> 00:59:59,210
Speaker 2: two feet in moment.

949
01:00:00,350 --> 01:00:02,430
Speaker 1: And, and, and, and so, you know, we talked about

950
01:00:03,070 --> 01:00:06,250
Speaker 1: the podcast I was on, right. With Kim and it's

951
01:00:06,330 --> 01:00:10,310
Speaker 1: called two feet in. Yeah. Right. Like it is. And

952
01:00:10,390 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: so that, that moment, that story has lived on ever since. Well, wow.

953
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:22,260
Speaker 1: I mean, that's incredible. Thank you for sharing that. I think,

954
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 1: you know, You say, okay, I went back to Dallas,

955
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:31,940
Speaker 1: haven't had a drink. There's so much that led up

956
01:00:31,980 --> 01:00:34,940
Speaker 1: to that. And so I think.

957
01:00:36,860 --> 01:00:45,340
Speaker 3: What did then practicing a life with Jesus at the

958
01:00:45,380 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 3: center and then getting sobriety thrown in, what did that

959
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:51,220
Speaker 3: look like going forward?

960
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 2: What has that looked like for the last seven and

961
01:00:54,140 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 2: a half years?

962
01:00:55,210 --> 01:00:59,770
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this. Yeah.

963
01:01:00,610 --> 01:01:03,770
Speaker 2: I mean, the first year was, it was messy, right?

964
01:01:04,070 --> 01:01:06,710
Speaker 2: I mean, it's been messy the whole time, but that

965
01:01:06,930 --> 01:01:13,270
Speaker 2: first year was especially messy because I removed my coping skills.

966
01:01:13,290 --> 01:01:15,740
Speaker 2: I'm also trying to figure out how to do 12

967
01:01:15,740 --> 01:01:20,380
Speaker 2: steps with Jesus. Also had a lot of pride, even

968
01:01:20,420 --> 01:01:23,700
Speaker 2: like going into region that, I knew better than everyone

969
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 2: else because they don't actually know what the 12-step program is.

970
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 2: So that was something that I struggled with there. But practically,

971
01:01:31,140 --> 01:01:36,460
Speaker 2: it really looked like opening my Bible. Every morning, I

972
01:01:37,220 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 2: started to just read. I started with the Gospels, and

973
01:01:41,140 --> 01:01:43,689
Speaker 2: I would make my coffee. I would read a couple

974
01:01:43,730 --> 01:01:46,730
Speaker 2: chapters of the Bible. I'd pull up a commentary because

975
01:01:46,770 --> 01:01:49,070
Speaker 2: I didn't have a clue what it actually meant. And

976
01:01:49,110 --> 01:01:52,780
Speaker 2: then I would journal a prayer. And I did that

977
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,870
Speaker 2: every day. And I started to fall in love with

978
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:59,290
Speaker 2: my Savior, which is what was missing this whole time.

979
01:02:00,550 --> 01:02:04,470
Speaker 2: I had people, right? And I had church and the

980
01:02:04,530 --> 01:02:08,590
Speaker 2: worship and the drums and all the production. But I

981
01:02:08,670 --> 01:02:11,630
Speaker 2: forgot to fall in love with the one who calls

982
01:02:11,690 --> 01:02:14,750
Speaker 2: me his. And I got to experience that for the

983
01:02:14,790 --> 01:02:19,150
Speaker 2: first time. And it was just like, water. I had

984
01:02:19,190 --> 01:02:22,990
Speaker 2: been thirsty that whole time. And so what happened was

985
01:02:23,070 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 2: I just started to love Jesus and be loved by him,

986
01:02:28,580 --> 01:02:31,540
Speaker 2: which looked like spending time with him, spending time with

987
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:36,060
Speaker 2: people that loved him and letting myself be seen and loved.

988
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:40,620
Speaker 2: And so practically that's how that started. It's how It's continued.

989
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,700
Speaker 2: And then the Holy Spirit just moved and he chipped

990
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 2: away at the evil in my heart. And he has

991
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:52,730
Speaker 2: just continued to soften me. And it has been a

992
01:02:52,890 --> 01:02:58,290
Speaker 2: crazy ride. The fact that I'm a therapist, I mean,

993
01:02:58,330 --> 01:03:01,290
Speaker 2: it's funny. Like, it's funny.

994
01:03:02,850 --> 01:03:04,610
Speaker 1: So how did that come about then?

995
01:03:05,330 --> 01:03:11,229
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I ended up working in rehab. pretty early

996
01:03:11,330 --> 01:03:16,169
Speaker 2: on in sobriety, which was great. I loved to walk

997
01:03:16,250 --> 01:03:19,510
Speaker 2: alongside people that were in recovery themselves. And so I

998
01:03:19,530 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 2: was working in treatment pretty early on for a couple

999
01:03:23,020 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 2: of years. And, you know, it's interesting because I had

1000
01:03:27,220 --> 01:03:29,939
Speaker 2: such a, it was honestly like I was being pulled

1001
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:32,890
Speaker 2: in two different directions because at this point I'm following

1002
01:03:32,950 --> 01:03:39,030
Speaker 2: Jesus and I am very much in recovery, but with Jesus,

1003
01:03:39,190 --> 01:03:41,689
Speaker 2: like he is my anchor. He is the reason for

1004
01:03:41,770 --> 01:03:46,070
Speaker 2: my sobriety. And then I'm working in secular treatment where

1005
01:03:46,620 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 2: we don't talk about Jesus. And so I'm trying to

1006
01:03:50,980 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 2: help all these people make it through the hardest times

1007
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:58,890
Speaker 2: of their life without giving them the answer, which is

1008
01:03:58,930 --> 01:04:02,970
Speaker 2: that there's actually freedom. And it's not actually going to

1009
01:04:03,010 --> 01:04:06,010
Speaker 2: come through chairing the meetings and doing all the things.

1010
01:04:06,030 --> 01:04:10,060
Speaker 2: Those are great. That's not going to help you find

1011
01:04:10,140 --> 01:04:13,260
Speaker 2: the hope that you're looking for. And it became this

1012
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:17,000
Speaker 2: struggle every day that I'd go to work because I was,

1013
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:20,260
Speaker 2: it's like I had the cure for something and I

1014
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:24,910
Speaker 2: couldn't talk about it. And that became really, really heavy

1015
01:04:25,010 --> 01:04:28,090
Speaker 2: for me, especially, you know, if you're working in treatment,

1016
01:04:28,230 --> 01:04:31,510
Speaker 2: people don't always make it right. Like they, They go

1017
01:04:31,550 --> 01:04:33,770
Speaker 2: back out. They don't make it. And I'm like, oh,

1018
01:04:33,950 --> 01:04:37,590
Speaker 2: I'm dealing with life or death here. And I'm not

1019
01:04:37,650 --> 01:04:40,570
Speaker 2: telling them the truth. And so it became this weight

1020
01:04:40,690 --> 01:04:43,990
Speaker 2: for me where it felt like the Lord was asking

1021
01:04:44,030 --> 01:04:46,770
Speaker 2: me to walk away, but I was scared to walk away.

1022
01:04:46,790 --> 01:04:51,860
Speaker 2: I wanted to do that. And so, yeah, so I

1023
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 2: was dealing with like this new turmoil of I want

1024
01:04:54,860 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 2: to share Jesus. I can't. like ethically, legally, whatever, like

1025
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:03,080
Speaker 2: the place had laid out that that's not the program

1026
01:05:03,100 --> 01:05:06,970
Speaker 2: that we use. Jesus isn't the program. We don't put

1027
01:05:07,030 --> 01:05:09,290
Speaker 2: our beliefs on other people. And so I felt in

1028
01:05:09,750 --> 01:05:14,450
Speaker 2: this bind constantly. And so, yeah, I was working in treatment.

1029
01:05:14,510 --> 01:05:18,630
Speaker 2: I was watching therapists because I wasn't a therapist in treatment.

1030
01:05:18,650 --> 01:05:21,660
Speaker 2: I was just like a tech or something. And I

1031
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,540
Speaker 2: was watching the way that they worked with people. And

1032
01:05:26,340 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 2: there was something in me that was just like stirred

1033
01:05:28,660 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 2: towards that. I did not want to be a therapist

1034
01:05:31,580 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 2: at all. I was like, that's okay, God. Like I'd

1035
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:40,070
Speaker 2: rather be a chef in the treatment center than a therapist.

1036
01:05:40,950 --> 01:05:46,870
Speaker 2: But God doesn't work like that. You know, like he

1037
01:05:46,910 --> 01:05:50,410
Speaker 2: has a plan and we eventually, I feel like, get

1038
01:05:50,490 --> 01:05:53,510
Speaker 2: on board. And so he just kind of laid it

1039
01:05:53,570 --> 01:05:57,610
Speaker 2: all out. I mean, to the point of, softening my heart,

1040
01:05:57,830 --> 01:06:01,570
Speaker 2: having people speak into that, even like suggesting it, which

1041
01:06:01,670 --> 01:06:04,450
Speaker 2: was wild. And then opening the door for me to

1042
01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:08,100
Speaker 2: get into school. Um, and so I decided like, God,

1043
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,780
Speaker 2: I will do this if that's what you're asking, but

1044
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:13,660
Speaker 2: I'm laughing at you that you would even suggest it

1045
01:06:13,900 --> 01:06:22,490
Speaker 2: like me. Um, yeah. So, so that's how that happened. Um, yeah.

1046
01:06:22,510 --> 01:06:25,820
Speaker 1: So two questions as we as we start to wrap

1047
01:06:25,890 --> 01:06:30,169
Speaker 1: up here, the first one would be what, you know, today,

1048
01:06:31,530 --> 01:06:34,910
Speaker 1: when maybe some of those dark thoughts come or the

1049
01:06:34,990 --> 01:06:42,970
Speaker 1: lies come or the struggles, the inner turmoil, maybe at times,

1050
01:06:43,010 --> 01:06:45,940
Speaker 1: or maybe it's gone. You know, you tell me, but how,

1051
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:52,020
Speaker 1: what does it look like to practically deal with that now? Yeah. Yeah.

1052
01:06:52,220 --> 01:06:56,990
Speaker 2: I mean, it has been a learning process for sure.

1053
01:06:57,010 --> 01:07:00,970
Speaker 2: And it does still come, you know, I still struggle

1054
01:07:01,330 --> 01:07:05,229
Speaker 2: with mental health. I still have depression days. I still

1055
01:07:05,270 --> 01:07:10,430
Speaker 2: have that discomfort feeling that begins and what that looks

1056
01:07:10,470 --> 01:07:13,820
Speaker 2: like now. One, I have learned a lot of great

1057
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 2: tools just through my own therapy of, you know, I

1058
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:21,479
Speaker 2: do a lot of like nervous system work. And so

1059
01:07:21,540 --> 01:07:27,100
Speaker 2: like that is helpful. I have scripture. I just open

1060
01:07:27,140 --> 01:07:31,140
Speaker 2: the Bible and I believe firmly that scripture speaks to

1061
01:07:31,180 --> 01:07:35,000
Speaker 2: me and it does. There's a comfort in knowing that

1062
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:40,740
Speaker 2: Jesus is near. My favorite phrase now is, I'm feeling

1063
01:07:40,780 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 2: discomfort and I'm going to be okay because I have Jesus.

1064
01:07:44,940 --> 01:07:48,850
Speaker 2: And so, It's less about getting that feeling to go away,

1065
01:07:49,030 --> 01:07:52,930
Speaker 2: which was always my goal before. And it's sitting through

1066
01:07:52,970 --> 01:07:56,510
Speaker 2: that feeling with the hope that Jesus is with me

1067
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,620
Speaker 2: and he's going to get me through it. And so, yes,

1068
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 2: those days still come, but I'm tethered with Jesus. And

1069
01:08:04,760 --> 01:08:06,300
Speaker 2: that is the only difference.

1070
01:08:07,850 --> 01:08:10,090
Speaker 1: So in your counseling practice, you know, we've talked about

1071
01:08:10,110 --> 01:08:11,680
Speaker 1: this offline a little bit, but you, you know, you

1072
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 1: see all sorts of people, but you, you especially kind of,

1073
01:08:14,620 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 1: you know, you specialize in addiction. And so I'm curious

1074
01:08:19,660 --> 01:08:23,599
Speaker 1: if there's someone listening to this who is either, you know,

1075
01:08:23,860 --> 01:08:27,450
Speaker 1: still drinking or still using, or maybe they're in the

1076
01:08:27,710 --> 01:08:36,190
Speaker 1: early days, stages of recovery. You know, what do you

1077
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:40,660
Speaker 1: generally say to those people to encourage them when you

1078
01:08:40,780 --> 01:08:47,700
Speaker 1: see them when they come before you? Yeah, it's, you.

1079
01:08:47,660 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 2: Know, it's all case by case. Right. So that that

1080
01:08:50,510 --> 01:08:54,189
Speaker 2: is tricky. But to the listener, you know, I would

1081
01:08:54,290 --> 01:08:59,090
Speaker 2: say you don't have to stay stuck in your bondage

1082
01:08:59,370 --> 01:09:02,809
Speaker 2: like you don't. you just don't. There is a way out.

1083
01:09:02,900 --> 01:09:04,470
Speaker 2: And I think we all kind of get to a

1084
01:09:04,530 --> 01:09:06,970
Speaker 2: point where it feels like there's never a way out.

1085
01:09:08,710 --> 01:09:12,290
Speaker 2: And for in the therapy room, sometimes I'm just believing

1086
01:09:12,330 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 2: that for them and helping hold them up until they

1087
01:09:15,620 --> 01:09:20,300
Speaker 2: can believe it. But there is freedom and it it

1088
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:24,440
Speaker 2: is faith in Jesus that frees us. That's what it is.

1089
01:09:24,479 --> 01:09:27,000
Speaker 2: That's what it looks like. Um, and, and there's a

1090
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:30,480
Speaker 2: lot of practical things that you can do to get there,

1091
01:09:30,550 --> 01:09:33,849
Speaker 2: but until you're able to believe that and believe that

1092
01:09:33,870 --> 01:09:36,370
Speaker 2: you're loved, it's going to be really hard to, to

1093
01:09:36,450 --> 01:09:39,490
Speaker 2: find that freedom. But yeah, like you can be set

1094
01:09:39,550 --> 01:09:42,450
Speaker 2: free from your bondage. And that's something I would have

1095
01:09:42,490 --> 01:09:45,500
Speaker 2: heard years ago and I would have never believed it. Um,

1096
01:09:46,410 --> 01:09:49,470
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have believed it. I carried too much shame

1097
01:09:49,530 --> 01:09:53,290
Speaker 2: and I was shackled. And those shackles have fallen off.

1098
01:09:54,130 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 2: And yeah, I would have never thought I'd be the

1099
01:09:57,800 --> 01:09:58,919
Speaker 2: person saying that.

1100
01:10:02,140 --> 01:10:05,420
Speaker 1: Oh, it is funny, right? I mean, there's some stuff

1101
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:07,760
Speaker 1: in my book where I wrote like, I'm not the

1102
01:10:07,820 --> 01:10:11,850
Speaker 1: person that should be writing this. I'm not the person

1103
01:10:11,890 --> 01:10:14,070
Speaker 1: that should be saying this. I would have laughed at myself,

1104
01:10:14,750 --> 01:10:18,550
Speaker 1: you know? five years ago to be saying this stuff.

1105
01:10:19,150 --> 01:10:23,410
Speaker 1: And I think that is the beauty. I think it's

1106
01:10:23,430 --> 01:10:27,470
Speaker 1: also the humor a little bit of God that he

1107
01:10:27,530 --> 01:10:29,810
Speaker 1: does that and he takes that and, you know, he

1108
01:10:29,910 --> 01:10:34,910
Speaker 1: turns the person who leaves a coffee meeting in the

1109
01:10:34,950 --> 01:10:39,099
Speaker 1: middle to go smoke meth into the addiction counselor. And

1110
01:10:39,340 --> 01:10:41,500
Speaker 1: I just love that. And so I love what he's

1111
01:10:41,580 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 1: done with your story. And I just thank you. Thank

1112
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:48,210
Speaker 1: you for sharing it. Um, like I said, I, in

1113
01:10:48,229 --> 01:10:50,300
Speaker 1: the beginning, I know you don't often, you know, do

1114
01:10:50,610 --> 01:10:53,660
Speaker 1: stuff like this. And so I consider it an honor

1115
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 1: to be able to steward your story and am so

1116
01:10:57,380 --> 01:11:00,600
Speaker 1: appreciative of you and what you're doing. If, you know,

1117
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:03,420
Speaker 1: I don't know if, if people would like to learn

1118
01:11:03,460 --> 01:11:05,540
Speaker 1: more about what you're doing down in Austin, is there

1119
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:06,270
Speaker 1: somewhere they can go?

1120
01:11:07,729 --> 01:11:12,030
Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, I'm at the Austin Stone Counseling Center and

1121
01:11:12,110 --> 01:11:16,210
Speaker 2: so I don't have that website memorized on. top of

1122
01:11:16,270 --> 01:11:20,710
Speaker 2: my head. How dare you? I know you can Google that.

1123
01:11:22,110 --> 01:11:23,220
Speaker 1: I'll put it in the show notes.

1124
01:11:23,229 --> 01:11:26,900
Speaker 2: Yeah, shoot me an email, whatever. Yeah, I'd love to

1125
01:11:26,939 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 2: hear from people. So thank you so much for having

1126
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:33,900
Speaker 2: me on. Your book has been such an encouragement to me.

1127
01:11:34,020 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why I reached out because it's so

1128
01:11:37,380 --> 01:11:41,580
Speaker 2: good and it's so truth. And I just love it.

1129
01:11:41,740 --> 01:11:42,110
Speaker 2: I love it.

1130
01:11:42,850 --> 01:11:45,530
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, Em. Thank you. That means a lot

1131
01:11:45,570 --> 01:11:51,900
Speaker 1: coming from you, someone who's been places that even I

1132
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:57,300
Speaker 1: haven't been, right? And yet, I think we, you know,

1133
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:00,860
Speaker 1: I think sometimes we play that comparison game, right? And

1134
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:05,269
Speaker 1: so it's like, you know, and my encouragement, especially to

1135
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:12,220
Speaker 1: people listening, is mine and Em's stories are different, and yet...

1136
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:17,099
Speaker 1: they are the same, right? Because at the core, we

1137
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 1: both recognized stuff that was going at the root. And

1138
01:12:21,380 --> 01:12:24,120
Speaker 1: so I didn't do meth and I could say, well,

1139
01:12:24,180 --> 01:12:27,660
Speaker 1: I didn't do meth, right? Or I can say we

1140
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:31,060
Speaker 1: are the same person because I know that the heart

1141
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:34,150
Speaker 1: issues and the deep down stuff and what we were chasing,

1142
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:36,970
Speaker 1: the numbing and the coping and the escaping and the

1143
01:12:37,130 --> 01:12:39,689
Speaker 1: not being able to sit with ourselves in the inner

1144
01:12:40,130 --> 01:12:44,710
Speaker 1: turmoil is something that We looked to Medicaid in different ways.

1145
01:12:44,750 --> 01:12:47,110
Speaker 1: You did it in one way. I did it in another.

1146
01:12:47,930 --> 01:12:53,090
Speaker 1: And then ultimately, we both found the true and lasting

1147
01:12:54,410 --> 01:12:56,890
Speaker 1: path to freedom. And so I celebrate that. So thank

1148
01:12:56,910 --> 01:12:57,410
Speaker 1: you so much.

1149
01:12:58,210 --> 01:12:59,150
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.

1150
01:13:01,530 --> 01:13:05,510
Speaker 1: I opened this podcast talking about needing a miracle, right?

1151
01:13:05,550 --> 01:13:12,389
Speaker 1: And then I said that you can need and want

1152
01:13:12,450 --> 01:13:15,610
Speaker 1: and hope for and look for a miracle. But that often,

1153
01:13:17,030 --> 01:13:19,370
Speaker 1: as we see in scripture, the Lord invites us into

1154
01:13:19,710 --> 01:13:22,689
Speaker 1: the work of that miracle, right? Like I think of

1155
01:13:24,270 --> 01:13:27,900
Speaker 1: one of the most famous ones, right? Where Moses, where

1156
01:13:27,910 --> 01:13:30,220
Speaker 1: the Lord parts the Red Sea, right? Well, what is,

1157
01:13:30,540 --> 01:13:33,240
Speaker 1: he invites Moses into that, right? He says, stretch out

1158
01:13:33,260 --> 01:13:39,780
Speaker 1: your arm, right? The rock in the same instance where

1159
01:13:39,820 --> 01:13:43,410
Speaker 1: they need water. And so Moses strikes the rock and

1160
01:13:43,450 --> 01:13:45,760
Speaker 1: water comes from it. I mean, there's just time and

1161
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:52,200
Speaker 1: time again that when we see miracles, that the Lord

1162
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:57,220
Speaker 1: invites us into that. And so it requires something of us.

1163
01:13:59,300 --> 01:14:03,480
Speaker 1: It required him, if you will, to go two feet in.

1164
01:14:04,430 --> 01:14:09,430
Speaker 1: And man, I love that. I work with people all

1165
01:14:09,450 --> 01:14:18,639
Speaker 1: the time. And there can be a frustration. There can

1166
01:14:18,689 --> 01:14:25,600
Speaker 1: be a just anger at times. Why aren't things changing?

1167
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:29,960
Speaker 1: Because the only thing that needs to change is everything.

1168
01:14:32,300 --> 01:14:35,400
Speaker 1: And I think so many people that find themselves in

1169
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:41,340
Speaker 1: a dire position, they just want to make– an incremental

1170
01:14:41,380 --> 01:14:45,990
Speaker 1: or small change. But really, what the Lord is calling

1171
01:14:46,030 --> 01:14:48,269
Speaker 1: them to, what he's calling you to, what he called

1172
01:14:48,350 --> 01:14:52,849
Speaker 1: me to, was to pull over, go in the parking lot,

1173
01:14:53,330 --> 01:14:57,309
Speaker 1: come out, get out of our car, and jump across

1174
01:14:57,350 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 1: the line and go two feet in. There are some

1175
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 1: of you that are listening to this that won't go

1176
01:15:04,979 --> 01:15:06,860
Speaker 1: two feet in. You'll go one, you'll go one and

1177
01:15:06,900 --> 01:15:11,940
Speaker 1: a half, and you are playing the game And those

1178
01:15:11,979 --> 01:15:15,670
Speaker 1: words from Kimberly to Em, you just got to go

1179
01:15:15,710 --> 01:15:19,010
Speaker 1: two feet in. They're words that, like, I need to

1180
01:15:19,030 --> 01:15:21,190
Speaker 1: give someone as soon as we're done talking right here,

1181
01:15:21,630 --> 01:15:26,330
Speaker 1: right now. That person needs to hear that. They are

1182
01:15:26,370 --> 01:15:32,170
Speaker 1: not going two feet in. I know because I was

1183
01:15:32,189 --> 01:15:35,910
Speaker 1: there as well. I didn't go two feet in. And

1184
01:15:35,950 --> 01:15:39,100
Speaker 1: it was when I finally went two feet in. It's

1185
01:15:39,240 --> 01:15:41,500
Speaker 1: not that things changed overnight. It's not that there was

1186
01:15:41,540 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 1: never any struggle. It's not that there was never a relapse.

1187
01:15:46,770 --> 01:15:50,170
Speaker 1: But it was different. I could feel it and those

1188
01:15:50,229 --> 01:15:56,929
Speaker 1: around me could feel it. Are you willing to go

1189
01:15:57,350 --> 01:16:03,230
Speaker 1: two feet in? And like sometimes I get so frustrated

1190
01:16:03,270 --> 01:16:07,110
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's a righteous frustration. Are you

1191
01:16:07,189 --> 01:16:12,639
Speaker 1: willing to go two feet in? And if the answer

1192
01:16:12,820 --> 01:16:16,939
Speaker 1: isn't an immediate yes, you need to be praying for that.

1193
01:16:19,220 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 1: But then on the other hand, let me say this.

1194
01:16:22,979 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 1: Being willing to go two feet in does not mean

1195
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:28,679
Speaker 1: you have to have it all figured out. That night

1196
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:31,160
Speaker 1: for me, when I hit rock bottom on the beach

1197
01:16:31,189 --> 01:16:33,710
Speaker 1: in Miami, I was ready to go two feet in. Now,

1198
01:16:33,910 --> 01:16:37,550
Speaker 1: that required taking a step. Think about that. Wow. Going

1199
01:16:37,570 --> 01:16:40,290
Speaker 1: two feet in requires you to take a step. And

1200
01:16:40,310 --> 01:16:45,170
Speaker 1: so I emailed the Christian counselor and said, okay, I'm

1201
01:16:45,189 --> 01:16:48,350
Speaker 1: ready to search through this. I'm ready to get to

1202
01:16:48,390 --> 01:16:50,930
Speaker 1: the root. But I didn't know exactly what my life

1203
01:16:50,950 --> 01:16:53,650
Speaker 1: was going to look like past that, past getting back

1204
01:16:53,689 --> 01:16:56,799
Speaker 1: to Dallas and just going for the first time. I'm

1205
01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:59,220
Speaker 1: not asking you to have it all figured out. I'm

1206
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 1: just asking you to pull the car over, get out,

1207
01:17:04,979 --> 01:17:09,180
Speaker 1: jump over the line and go two feet in. You're

1208
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:11,720
Speaker 1: going to get back in the car And the GPS,

1209
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 1: you're going to listen.

1210
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:15,460
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1211
01:17:15,820 --> 01:17:17,800
Speaker 1: Maybe it's the next exit. Maybe it's the exit after.

1212
01:17:18,320 --> 01:17:23,750
Speaker 1: But go two feet in, please. Emily's story reminds us that.

1213
01:17:24,830 --> 01:17:28,390
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for her. Thank you, as always, to

1214
01:17:28,450 --> 01:17:30,990
Speaker 1: our partner, Life Audio, lifeaudio.com. You can go and listen

1215
01:17:31,010 --> 01:17:35,070
Speaker 1: to some other great podcasts. Please go to veritasrecovery.org and

1216
01:17:35,090 --> 01:17:38,820
Speaker 1: get resources if you're ready to go two feet in.

1217
01:17:39,390 --> 01:17:40,750
Speaker 1: Reach out to me if you're ready to go two

1218
01:17:40,790 --> 01:17:45,370
Speaker 1: feet in. We'll help you. Love you all. See you

1219
01:17:45,610 --> 01:17:46,350
Speaker 1: next week.