1 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Here thousands of 2 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: hours of Dennis's lectures courses in classic radio programs. Had 3 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 1: to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles. Go to Dennisprager dot com. 4 00:00:54,240 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: Session one was the problem of male sexuality and the 5 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:07,919 Speaker 2: ease and of the visual stimulation, the ubiquity of the 6 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 2: sexual drive. In the mail, I didn't say greater depth, 7 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: just ubiquity of the omnipresence of it, and so on. 8 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: That it is a problem that society in men and 9 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: women must address. That was last week. So now I'm 10 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 2: gonna talk to you tonight about just one aspect that 11 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 2: causes people to think profoundly unclearly. The first two were tough. 12 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 2: This is tougher. Uh. I have read almost nothing intelligent 13 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: on this subject. It is so emotionally charged, apparently, and 14 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: I think I understand why. And I have a story 15 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: to prove it that just happened last week, which I 16 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: commented on on the radio. And uh hm, I put 17 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: in new batteries and it, uh, well, let's hope it worked. Yeah, yes, 18 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 2: uh double a. Well if it dies again, yeah, maybe 19 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: I would want thanks. The Uh. The subject is pornography. 20 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: And let me begin by defining pornography so that we 21 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: know what I'm talking about. This is my definition. If 22 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: you find it wanting, please let me know. I can't 23 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: imagine that you would literature or pictures whose purpose is 24 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: to sexually arouse the reader or viewer. Is that a 25 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: fair anybody have a problem with it? I have one problem, 26 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 2: not a problem, but one added factor. Is it its 27 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: sole purpose or one of its purposes? For example, the 28 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 2: sole purpose of a picture in penthouse is to arouse sexually? 29 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: That is its only purpose? Right? Does a pick in 30 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 2: Victorious Secret Catalog arouse? Men? Yes? It does heterosexual manner. 31 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:29,399 Speaker 2: I'm speaking, of course, Yes it does. Is it pornography? 32 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: Raise your hand if you think Victoria's Secret is pornographic? 33 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 2: Forget my definition. Do you think it's pornographic by any definition? 34 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 2: Three people raise their hand. Have you ever seen You've 35 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: all seen Victoria's Secret? How many haven't seen Victoria's Secret? Fascinating? 36 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: How don't you avoid it? I don't understand it is 37 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: not avoidable. As I move, it comes with the moving van. 38 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: They know I have moved before my mother? Does I mean? 39 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: I don't understand who missed it? I have four hundred 40 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: extra copies just to let me know. I mean, the stuff, 41 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: it comes every week, twice a week, right, I mean, 42 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 2: you can't keep up with it. There's always a sale, 43 00:04:18,840 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: a raw sale. This sale. It's a riot, I mean, 44 00:04:22,039 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: you know, and it's no this one. It's really I 45 00:04:24,159 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: convince now why there is two one for him and 46 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: one for her. My wife likes it. I like it. 47 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: Everybody's happy. So I were really how many never saw it? 48 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 2: They were? What is it? One? Two? Why about ten? People? 49 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: My god? Have you heard of it? Do you live 50 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: in America? Do you live in that way? Okay, that's 51 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: all right, no problem, I'll get you on the list. 52 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: Do you get any mail at all? You know, I 53 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 2: can't imagine if you're on any list, you don't get 54 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: on Victoria's Secret. I mean it is just that common anyway. 55 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: Victoria's Secret is theoretically a lingerie catalog. The pictures are 56 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: extremely alluring. I mean, these are supermodels, they are virtually naked, 57 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: they are in provocative poses and well well photographed. You 58 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 2: might have thought I was gonna another word after well, 59 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 2: but the photographed was the word that came to mind. 60 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: And it is extremely arousing stuff. That stuff when I 61 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: was a kid would have been considered pornography. Today. Three 62 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: of you in this whole group voted to call it 63 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 2: pornographic forty years ago, while I was a kid thirty 64 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 2: years ago, thirty five years ago, when I was fifteen, 65 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 2: it would have been regarded as pornography. It would have 66 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: come in a paper bag, women in thong bottoms, virtually 67 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:58,480 Speaker 2: entirely revealing bras and so on. Is that pornography? Well, 68 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: it's a very interesting question, and I don't use by 69 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 2: the way, I don't use the word pornography as a pejorative. 70 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,799 Speaker 2: It is used as a pejorative as an inherently negative phrases. 71 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 2: You will understand tonight. I do not see it that way. 72 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 2: But I also believe in intellectual honesty. Of course, one 73 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 2: of the purposes of that magazine is to arouse men. 74 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: Of course it is, and men know that men are 75 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 2: aroused when they see it. And there are some of 76 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: us who might argue it's more arousing than cheer nudity 77 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 2: in the provocative nature of the photos, and yet a 78 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: tiny bit of clothing to leave some element of the imagination. 79 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: So this is how I have resolved this question to 80 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: the extent that the subject approaches soul. In other words, 81 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: the subject that which is being viewed or read approaches 82 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: as soul as its purpose. It is closer to pure 83 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 2: pornography if the issue is sexual arousal without it having 84 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 2: to have as its sole purpose or even primary purpose, 85 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 2: sexual arousal, such as women's underwear ads bra ads, and 86 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 2: then they are If the issue with is sexual arousal, 87 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: then they are porn. If the issue is to sell bras, 88 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: then they're not. But it's very complex. There was a 89 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: movie what Happens What I have a mental blow? Is 90 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: something happened to Sarah? What is the name? Something about Mary? 91 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: That's my son goes crazy that I can't remember that name. 92 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: Something about Mary an extremely funny film for adults only, 93 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: but very funny. And there is a scene with the 94 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: guy getting ready. He was told by a friend at 95 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: the way not to be too excited on a date 96 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 2: and jump on the woman is to masturbate prior to 97 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: the date. So he is so you get a you 98 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: get this picture of him in his bathroom and what 99 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 2: is he using as his stimulation material? A Los Angeles 100 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: Times bra D. I found that scene to be hilarious. 101 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: Why because truth cracks me up that he was not 102 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: using Playboy or Penthouse or rougher stuff. He was using 103 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: the daily paper. Listen, of course it's sexually aroused him. 104 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 2: How could it not be the fact that it wants 105 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 2: to sell a bra to a woman. That that's why 106 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 2: Robinson's may may Robinson's, whichever the order is, puts it 107 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 2: in in there to sell to women bras or maybe 108 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 2: men who want to buy their women a bra and 109 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: the hope that you'll look like the model of the picture. 110 00:08:40,839 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: But that is set. That is one factor that means 111 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: that the purpose is not solely pornographic, but its effect 112 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 2: is get it. I mean a collection of the most 113 00:08:55,360 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 2: titillating bra ads would make a very sexual book with 114 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: no prices and no department store names. You could sell 115 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: that as basically a soft core a book of pornography. 116 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: There is no difference to the mayle looking at it. 117 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: That it says eight ninety nine or two for fifteen 118 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: hardly changes the fact that he sees a woman scantily clad. 119 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 2: That's what the male sees. He doesn't care what the 120 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: purpose was. The purpose could be to sell tires and 121 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: often is you get right? Women in bikinis next to tires. 122 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: He's looking at the woman in the bikini. He may 123 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: also check out the tire, because some men are also 124 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: into cars. But the fact is that, of course that's 125 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 2: what his eye checks out. Is that pornographic? So that 126 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: is why I am saying it's a very difficult issue. 127 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: There are levels of pornography, clearly, But this is I 128 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: said on my radio show once that playboy, Wow, that 129 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 2: really sings a song. That Playboy is pornography. And I 130 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 2: was called up by people a playboy profoundly offended. I said, 131 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 2: I said, I subscribe. Don't be I said it on 132 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 2: the air, said my father's subscribed. I'm a subscriber, the 133 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 2: son of a subscriber. Subscriber, ben subscriber. 134 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: All right, this episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right 135 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: after this. Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom. 136 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: But I don't fool myself, and I don't want you 137 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: guys at the Playboy mansion to fool yourself. Of course, 138 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 2: it's pornography. Is it softer than jugs? Yeah? Or then 139 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 2: gallery or what is Flint's one hustler? Yes, But so 140 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: let's acknowledge there are levels and By the way, the 141 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 2: levels are fascinating to understand what the power and the 142 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: meaning of sex, and the level one level was pubicare. 143 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: Pubic hare was a very major moment when Playboy began 144 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: to allow pubic care in its early decades and allow it. 145 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 2: Female genitalia is really the dividing point between hard and 146 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: soft porn, whether they whether that is shown or not, 147 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 2: and puba care is not genitalium. So it's almost gradations. 148 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: I'm being specific because that's what life is about at 149 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 2: any rate. That is, those are the gradations. Then you 150 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: have variations on a theme, and we'll talk about that later. 151 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 2: Now you understand at least what I am talking about. 152 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 2: That's pornography. I let me say something. I was thinking 153 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: about this course and my approach to it, and I 154 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 2: think I know what I'm doing. This sounds funny. I actually, 155 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: in retrospect, am understanding better what I'm doing than I 156 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 2: did before I started this. I am this is the 157 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 2: way I put it to someone today, defanging a monster. 158 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 2: The monster is male sexuality. I am trying to defang it. 159 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: I am trying to say the reason for so much 160 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: convoluted thinking, so much anger, hostility, worry, fear is because 161 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: it is almost a monster. But it isn't necessarily a 162 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 2: malignant or malevolent monster. It might be a benign monster. 163 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 2: You get very scared when you see Frankenstein, But maybe 164 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 2: Frankenstein is a nice guy. Maybe male sexuality isn't necessarily 165 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: a bad guy. Maybe it is a monster something that 166 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: we can't fully control. It is a fire, if you will, 167 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 2: As one religious friend many years ago put it, it 168 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: is just this fire that has to be controlled. But 169 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: fire can heat. Fire isn't necessarily a monster either. When 170 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 2: I was a child, my older brother saw that I 171 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: was very afraid of monster movies, and so he suggested 172 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 2: that I watch them until I stopped being afraid of them. 173 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: And as hard as it was, I took his advice 174 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: and started watching a lot of monster movies and horror 175 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: movies until eventually they had zero impact. In fact, I 176 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 2: would laugh, I check the makeup. In other words, I 177 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 2: was jaded, if you will, with regard to monsters. I 178 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: want us to look at male sexuality in the eye, 179 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 2: stare at it and say, hey, wait a minute, maybe 180 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 2: it's not so frightening, and the most or or not 181 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,599 Speaker 2: the most the most frightening obviously is rape, but that's 182 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: a totally separate arena and I'm not touching on that now. 183 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: But in normal life, the most frightening aspect is pornography. 184 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: Nothing could be uglier than calling someone a pornographer. The 185 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: very word is never used without judgment being made. And 186 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: women feel this about men. Many men, especially religious men, 187 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 2: feel this about pornography. It's a vile thing, it's ugly, 188 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: it's dangerous, and so on. So I can talk about 189 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: it tonight much better in the light of the first 190 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: two sessions. Next week we'll talk about applying values to 191 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: all of this and where they fit in. And it's 192 00:14:52,200 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: not an easy subject. In order to ascertain what our 193 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: attitude to pornography should be, indeed to male sexuality in general, 194 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 2: but specifically pornography, I think we need to ask this question, 195 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 2: which is rarely asked. In fact, I feel in this 196 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: even more than I did in the happiness class I 197 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:24,359 Speaker 2: gave that I'm treading new territory. I feel like an 198 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: explorer going on a mission that people haven't gone on before. 199 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: What is our aim with regard to men? And there 200 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 2: were two choices essentially that people make. One is we 201 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: want to produce a man who doesn't lust except after 202 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: his wife. That is one aim. That is the aim 203 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: of traditional religion. That is the aim of tradition period. 204 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: That is the aim of women generally speaking. Remember I 205 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: told you about that woman on a date told me 206 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: when I asked her what type of man she wants 207 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 2: to marry, and she said, a man who's extremely virile, 208 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 2: highly charged, sexual, manly guy, and who only lusts after me. 209 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: And I wish their good luck just as I just 210 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: as I wish the man who wanted to marry the 211 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: playboy bunny who studies too. Did I tell you about him? 212 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: This was my favorite guy I ever met. It's a 213 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: thirty five year old Orthodox Jewish bachelor. I was about twenty. 214 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: And I said, how come you're not married? Because he 215 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 2: had told me how lonely he is. He doesn't have 216 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: sex because of religious reasons. He wants a wife, he 217 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 2: wants children, he wants a Jewish home, he wants a 218 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 2: religious life. He's unhappy. That's why aren't you married. I've 219 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: met the right woman. Why not? Why aren't you? Americas, 220 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: i haven't met the right woman? And he said, and 221 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: I said, what would the right woman be? And he said, 222 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 2: tell you the truth. I want a playboy bunny who 223 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:07,959 Speaker 2: studies too, and that guy has as much luck, I believe, 224 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,519 Speaker 2: as this woman does. There both have this bizarre idea. 225 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 2: This is very important, though. I don't don't want to 226 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: create men who never lust for anybody but their wife. 227 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: That is a saintly ideal that I don't hold for 228 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: the real world in heaven. That's the way men are 229 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 2: not on earth. I'll tell you what I want to create. 230 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 2: A man who leads an upright life, an honorable man, 231 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: a man who is responsible, good, and faithful to his 232 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 2: wife and his family. A man who treats women as 233 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 2: befits the treatment of fellow human beings created in God's image. 234 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: That's what I want to produce. But not a man 235 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 2: who doesn't lust after other women. That is a level 236 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: that I don't aspire to. I have enough challenges in 237 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 2: life to get to the other things that I just 238 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 2: said to you. They're pretty pretty tough without adding that 239 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 2: saintly ideal. Indeed, there's even a higher ideal than that. 240 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 2: The current Pope, John Paul the Second, whom I I 241 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: deeply respect. I think he is a great man, and 242 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: I use that word rarely. He said that a man 243 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 2: should not lust after his own wife. Lust is wrong period. 244 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 2: When when my wife heard that, she eloquently disagreed, And 245 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 2: when my wife eloquently disagrees, then they're wrong. Let me 246 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 2: tell you it's the under that issue. And I eloquently 247 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: disagree too. The day I stop lusting after my wife 248 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,360 Speaker 2: will be a very sad day in the breaker home. 249 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 2: I'll tell you, Oh, no, that is I don't to me. 250 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: It's not only not to aspire to with the opposite. 251 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: One doesn't want to aspire to that. It's interesting though 252 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 2: here and here, some here I know will disagree with 253 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: many Christians in this audience. And I'll never forget when 254 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 2: I did religion on the line ten years, every Sun 255 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 2: for ten years, five hundred shows. That's a lot two 256 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: hours each no ads, that's equivalent to six hours. It's 257 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 2: a joke. It was a joke. Just the ads take 258 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 2: up a lot of time, two hours, no ads and 259 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 2: different clergy each week. And I would pick a different 260 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 2: topic each week. And I don't know. I came up 261 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 2: with about four hundred maybe one out of five I 262 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 2: repeated one that I repeated about two or three times 263 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: only in the course of the ten years was your 264 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 2: view of lust, your religion's view of lust, And every 265 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 2: time it was very similar. The Catholic priest and the 266 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 2: Protestant minister, whether liberal or conservative, would would speak out 267 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: against would speak out against lust. Lust is sinful, and 268 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 2: the rabbi would whether Orthodox or reform for that matter, 269 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: would have a much more nuanced to you lust. It's 270 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 2: not a mitzvutal lust, but it's not a big sin either. 271 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 2: You remember the famous story and Playboy magazine Jimmy Carter 272 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 2: when he was a candidate for president acknowledged that he 273 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 2: lusted after other women than his wife, and there was 274 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: there was a big who in the Christian world. This 275 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 2: is a born again Christian acknowledging that he lusts. Jews yawned. 276 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 2: Christians were taken aback in some way, and this is 277 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: all a generalization, of course, and Jews tended to yawned 278 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: because the truth is, there's no law against lusting in 279 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 2: my Bible. There isn't. There's a law against coveting, but 280 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 2: coveting and lusting are not the same thing at all. 281 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: You can't covet your neighbor's donkey, and very few men 282 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 2: a lust after donkeys. You can't covet your neighbor's house, 283 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 2: and I've never heard of house lust. If we're talking 284 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 2: of lust as a sexual thing, lust is a very 285 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 2: complex thing in the moral realm. Do you want a 286 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 2: man to spend his day lost thing? Of course not. 287 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 2: You don't want anybody to spend their day, male or female, 288 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: doing something that can hardly lead to a productive life. 289 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 2: But that lust will arise is as inevitable as hunger 290 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: will arise, and you deal with it as a grown 291 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 2: up and you move on. That's what I mean by 292 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 2: defanging the monster. This is not a monster lust. It's 293 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 2: a monster if we regard it as a monster, it's there. 294 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: Now what do I do? Okay, that's to me the adult, 295 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: mature question that people should ask. So in assessing pornography 296 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 2: or anything else, I first have to ask the question 297 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 2: of what is our aim? Before we judge something. We 298 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 2: need to have a goalpost. Right. How do I know 299 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 2: how many yards make a touchdown? If I don't know 300 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 2: what a touchdown is, oh, one hundred yards? Now I 301 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 2: know what I have to measure each carrie of the football. 302 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 2: Buy Now I know how I measure lust, how I 303 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 2: measure masturbation, How I measure pornography because pornography and masturbation 304 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 2: obviously are intimately linked, generally speaking, not always, but generally 305 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: they go together. And masturbation is an issue to many 306 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 2: religious people, not to me. And I must say, you know, 307 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: I've never done this. I really should dedicate this course 308 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: to my father, who is going to be eighty one 309 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 2: this summer. My father did a very rare thing. He 310 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 2: juggled a religious life. He has been an Orthodox Jew, 311 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: a president of an Orthodox synagogue, been Orthodox's whole life. 312 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: And as I told you, subscribe to Playboy. I learned 313 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 2: as a child that the two are not mutually exclusive, 314 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 2: being decent, being upright, being monogamous, and being lustful. And 315 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 2: it was a good model. I think others will certainly disagree, 316 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: but I think that that was a good model that 317 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 2: was offered to me when it came to masturbation. My 318 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 2: father said to me when I was in nearing puberties, Dennis, 319 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 2: I don't know if you're masturbating or not. I'm not 320 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: going to ask you. I don't want to embarrass you. 321 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 2: If you feel embarrassed by just let me tell you 322 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: my view. I think it is morally equivalent to urinating 323 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 2: and that was the end of the discussion. We never 324 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 2: discussed the issue again. That's quite a statement. 325 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: This episode of timeless wisdom will continue right after this. 326 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless. 327 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: Wisdom carried on this venerated Praeger tradition of taking this attitude. 328 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: I became a camp counselor at an Orthodox day camp 329 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: one summer. I was the counselor of thirteen year old boys, 330 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: who are monsters, as it happens, and I think I 331 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: was given the test solely because I was the tallest 332 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 2: and largest and strongest Jew they had ever seen in camp, 333 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,160 Speaker 2: and I could take care of thirteen year old boys. 334 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 2: That was the general belief. I had eight boys. They 335 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: were known as the eighth Wonder of the World. That's 336 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 2: how difficult they were, and I liked the challenge anyway. 337 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 2: The first night of camp, I had this age group 338 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: a couple of years running. I would give them the 339 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 2: Birds and Bees talk, and all of these kids went 340 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: to Yeshiva's. This was again Orthodox Jews, That's the way 341 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: I was raised. And I told them when I thought 342 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 2: about masturbation and the effects were very powerful. And I 343 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 2: don't mean this in a funny way that the stall 344 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: started shaking every night I made it in a very 345 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: serious way. The boys would come over to me, not 346 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: knowing that any other boy, had to tell me how 347 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 2: fraught with guilt they were, because their rabbis had taught 348 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: them that this was a grievous sin to masturbate. Indeed, 349 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 2: there is one Jewish text that compares it to murder, 350 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 2: as if one can kill sperm, I guess you can 351 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 2: kill sperm, but sperm m people. And one boy, in fact, 352 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 2: who had the added burden of being the child of 353 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 2: Holocaust survivors, was unbelievably racked with guilt and did it frequently. 354 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: I mean, he had serious psychological problems. He was not 355 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 2: a danger to society. He was only a danger to 356 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 2: his own happiness. And he wrote to me, I'll never 357 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 2: forget constantly. I went to England that year, I was 358 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 2: a junior in college, and he wrote to me about 359 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 2: his struggles with this issue. He just couldn't stop writing 360 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 2: to me about this. There was somebody he could talk to. 361 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: The bigger sin, in my book, was what the rabbis 362 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 2: told him, not what the boys did. I never quite 363 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 2: understood who is hurt by masturbation. It is never I've 364 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 2: never to this day understood who the victim is. If 365 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 2: it's chronic and you can't stop it, of course it's 366 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: an issue. But that's true for asparagus eating. If you 367 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: can't stop eating asparagus, you have problems. You have to 368 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 2: eat asparagus six times a day and think about asparagus 369 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 2: all day, you've got serious problems. But I will not 370 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 2: condemn asparagus on that ground, and that's the way it 371 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 2: ought to be regarded, because I want to defang a monster. Now. 372 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 2: I don't agree that you bring masturbation curricula into public schools. 373 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 2: That was a stupid idea. That's a goofy idea. That 374 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 2: is not for teachers to talk to students. It's a 375 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: private or issue for parent and child, or therapist and child, 376 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 2: or clergy and child. And if the parents don't, I'm 377 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: not going to have schools as substitute parents taking over 378 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 2: their role. That's none of society's job to do. If 379 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 2: kids want to deal with it and pick up a 380 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 2: book on the subject, that's fine, as I did certainly, 381 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,719 Speaker 2: But of course I had my father's statement to end 382 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 2: all guilt that I might have over the issue, and 383 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 2: therefore it ceased to be this overwhelming dark cloud in 384 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 2: my life. It was there and yet and there were 385 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 2: more important things in life, And there are more important 386 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 2: things than sex, period. There are. There's a lot to life, 387 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 2: but if it's filled with sinful statements, and it can 388 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 2: take your life over. Of course, there are areas of 389 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: sexual sin, but I don't regard masturbation as one of them, 390 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: and there's no biblical basis whatsoever for it none. I 391 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: want to make this categorical as I can. It is 392 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 2: an utter and total distortion of the text in Genesis, 393 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 2: which is the only text that even hints of what's 394 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: called Onanism, named after Onan, a brother who was supposed 395 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 2: to have conjugal relations with his brother's widow. In ancient times, 396 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 2: if you were not married, you took over your brother's 397 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: widow after he died, so that you could carry on 398 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: his name and make a family. He Onan didn't do this. Instead, 399 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 2: he had cooitis interrupt us. He began sexual relations and 400 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: withdrew and secreted his ejaculated his sperm outside of the woman. 401 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 2: That's not masturbating, that's coedis interrupt us. His sin was 402 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 2: that he didn't fulfill the lever right law. Leveright law 403 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 2: as it's called, of building a family for his brother 404 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: and starting intercourse with the woman and stopping. It's not masturbation. 405 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with it. And to take 406 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 2: from that a ban on masturbation is dishonest to the 407 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 2: biblical text. There is nothing in the Bible that I 408 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 2: know of, certainly the Hebrew Bible, that hints at it 409 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 2: being forbidden. It's silent on the issue. It's more concerned 410 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 2: with deeper subjects. This is not an invitation for people 411 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 2: to spend their lives doing it. But saying something isn't 412 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 2: the sin doesn't mean that one should do it all day. 413 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 2: Obviously there are other issues involved, but they are other issues. 414 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: So let's defang the issue of masturbation. And I have 415 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 2: to talk about that because you can't talk about pornography 416 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 2: if you don't talk about masturbation. All right, now to pornography. 417 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: So we've defined it. You've asked what sort of man 418 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: do we want to make in light of the truths 419 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: that I believe they are of male sexuality that we 420 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 2: have talked about. To deal with pornography, I have decided 421 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 2: to do it from the back door, and that is 422 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: to deal with objections to it and then let it 423 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 2: just exist. I'm not going to make the case for it. 424 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 2: There isn't a big case to be made for it. 425 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 2: We're not a great world for having all these magazines 426 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 2: on the newstand. We're also not a terrible world. I 427 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 2: would I dare say there is nobody, not the most 428 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 2: religious person in this room, of any religion, who would 429 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 2: rather live in any of the societies that ban pornography 430 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: than in this society. There is a direct, absolute correlation 431 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 2: between the banning of pornography and other human freedoms. You 432 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 2: can't pick and choose the freedoms that you want to allow. 433 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 2: Freedom comes with some things that you're not thrilled about. 434 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: And if this is the worst society produce, is We've 435 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: got a pretty damn good society. It's not the worst 436 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: we produce. We produce murder and rape and child molestation. 437 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: So here are the arguments against it. 438 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: This episode of timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 439 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's timeless wisdom. 440 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: So here are the arguments against it. Number One, it 441 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: debases women by portraying them as sex objects. That's a 442 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 2: large part of the feminist argument. To be fair to feminists, 443 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 2: though feminists are divided between anti and pro pornography, or 444 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 2: anti and neutral on pornography, some are pro. It's difficult. 445 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: It is for me to commend the head of the ACLU. 446 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 2: Intellectual honesty is more important to me than an emotional victory. 447 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 2: The head of the Aclia has written an important book, 448 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: actually on behalf of a pornography, defending not on behalf 449 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 2: so much as defending it's called defending pornography by this woman. 450 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 2: The dean straws him anyway. The feminist argument which is 451 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 2: caught on to weak willed men, and I say weak 452 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: willed because they know that it's not true because they're men, 453 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 2: so but they don't want to ever contravene what powerful 454 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 2: females say. Powerful females intimidate a lot of males. It 455 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 2: debases women by portraying them as sex objects, as the argument, now, 456 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 2: let's be honest, is a woman in a porno picture 457 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 2: of sex object. Of course, men are not viewing the 458 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 2: picture in order to understand the way the elbows formed, 459 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 2: or to the watching porno films for the Shakespearean dialogue 460 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: in them of course, the women are sex objects. So what? 461 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 2: My best answer is so what? But here are four answers. 462 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 2: Number one, if it debases women by portraying them as 463 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: sex objects, then men as a collective entity are debased 464 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: because men are sex objects in gay pornography. Indeed, men 465 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 2: are sex objects in heterosexual pornography. Where they are used. 466 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 2: In heterosexual porno films, the men are just as much 467 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 2: sex objects as the women are. A normal human being, however, 468 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 2: has a fantasy life. In the fantasy life, women for 469 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: the male can be sex objects. So what for the 470 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: healthy male that is, there is no And this A 471 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 2: lot of women may find this fascinating, and I understand 472 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,439 Speaker 2: that you would find it almost unbelievable. But the two 473 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 2: don't conflict at all. To be able to see women 474 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 2: at one on the one hand, as sex objects and 475 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 2: on the other is fully human that you now make 476 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 2: a business deal with the two don't. They're not exclusive 477 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 2: any more than they're exclusive. If a man is making 478 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 2: love to a woman and there is a sex objectification, 479 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 2: part of it is not just love making. There is 480 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 2: a sex objectification element as well. There even to the 481 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 2: woman that he loves. It's all so love making but 482 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 2: it's also pure sex. Sometimes it's pure sex, sometimes it's love. 483 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's a mixture, and it's fine. And so what 484 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 2: if a man wants his wife to put on a 485 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 2: sexy lingerie he is objectifying her in some way, of 486 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 2: course he is. If it's just pure love, what does 487 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 2: she need a bikini for or a French maid's outfit 488 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: or whatever is in vogue? Check out the Victoria's Secret. 489 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, of course there's an objectification involved, but 490 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,240 Speaker 2: so what? So what are two of the most powerful 491 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 2: words in English help diffuse so much tension in life? 492 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,399 Speaker 2: People make Oh, that's terrible. He sees women as snow. 493 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 2: He doesn't see women as a sex object. He sees 494 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: that woman as a sex object. Does he see his 495 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 2: mother as a sex object? His sister, his partner at work, 496 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 2: his law partner, the prosecutor. He's debating him? Maybe when 497 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: she crosses her legs he does, but then he debates her. 498 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 2: Believe it or not, men can do two things at 499 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 2: the same time. It's very rare, very very rare. We 500 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 2: could chew gum and drive, those are two things, and 501 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,399 Speaker 2: we could see pretty legs and talk to a woman 502 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,280 Speaker 2: at the same time. About Chinese espionage in America. Okay, 503 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 2: believe it or not, It's doable. And I suspect that 504 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 2: women are thinking two things as well a lot of 505 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 2: the time that they are seeing a man, not necessarily 506 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 2: what are his legs like? But what is he like? 507 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 2: Or what's his wife like? Of course, who isn't thinking 508 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 2: two things at once when they see people? Maybe the 509 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 2: other thing? The thing is, I want to get out 510 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 2: of here, but people are still thinking to things at once. 511 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 2: Are men, as a rule, as a collective entity debased 512 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 2: by gay pornography? Do I, Dennis Prager male, feel that 513 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,879 Speaker 2: I am personally debased because there are men who see 514 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 2: men as pure sex objects? The idea is ludicrous to me, ludicrous. 515 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 2: So what do our gay men incapable of seeing men 516 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 2: as anything but sex objects? Of course not, of course, 517 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 2: they could see men as men. So why does it 518 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 2: only apply to women because of the monster that male 519 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 2: sexuality is to many women? And I understand that I 520 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 2: began this course that way, I understand it. I'm trying 521 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:15,240 Speaker 2: to defang that monster. Number two, women are sometimes regarded 522 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 2: as sex objects without pornography. You don't need pornography for 523 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 2: men to sometimes see women as sex objects. Right, it's 524 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 2: pre porn after porn, and aside from porn. Number three, 525 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 2: I would argue frankly that very often the male consumer 526 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 2: may be more debased than the woman in the picture. 527 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: When I see men, when we used to prior to video, 528 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 2: when I saw men come out of X rated cinemas, 529 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 2: believe me, these men are not walking out thinking I 530 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 2: am the superiors. I am great. I just played with 531 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 2: myself in the movie theater. Are you kidding? Did you 532 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 2: ever see men come out of an X rated movie theater? 533 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 2: Their heads are down covered, they got a coat over here. 534 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 2: The last thing they want is for any human on 535 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 2: earth to see them. They the women are debate. If 536 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 2: anybody's debased, it's the poor swept. It's him, poor guy, 537 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 2: because he didn't have a real woman. He went to 538 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 2: a movie. I've only felt for the guys in these issues. 539 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 2: Believe me, you know people, oh the women. And she's 540 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 2: getting paid. She couldn't care less about the schlepper who 541 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,839 Speaker 2: paid seven point fifty to see her naked. I mean 542 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 2: that's the fact. And number four, maybe no one is debased. 543 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe no, No neither sex not to the to 544 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,479 Speaker 2: the tape recorder, well, we got plenty of times thirty 545 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: five minutes. The uh. Maybe neither sex is debased. I'm 546 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 2: not saying it's also beautiful. I'm not making an argument 547 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 2: on pornography is wholly uplifting and wonderful. No, I just 548 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 2: want to defang it as from the monstrous characteristics many 549 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 2: offer it. Also, it depends on what type of pornography. 550 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 2: I'll tell you. I think there is some debas that 551 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 2: is inherently debasing. An example is bestiality that I think, 552 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,839 Speaker 2: no matter how well paid the actress may be, there 553 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,800 Speaker 2: is something to me debasing and having a human with 554 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,720 Speaker 2: an animal in a sexual encounter. It may be amazing 555 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,920 Speaker 2: to you that this exists, but believe me, it exists. 556 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 2: I read you off some of those lists two weeks 557 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,919 Speaker 2: ago that on a typical website in the porn world 558 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:55,280 Speaker 2: on the Internet. Second argument against pornography leads to violence. 559 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 2: I find this extraordinary. It is an assertion I might 560 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: as well say Domino's leads to diarrhea. To me, it 561 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 2: is as logical it is a non secular Looking at 562 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 2: pictures of naked women causes a man to kill or 563 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 2: rape is a stupid idea. I can't stand dishonesty. Whether 564 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 2: it's from the right or the left, this one tends 565 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 2: to come, as it happens from both, ironically, the feminist 566 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 2: left and the traditional right. Are you kidding? Is that 567 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:38,240 Speaker 2: true violence? I'll prove to you if you are open 568 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 2: to hearing, I will prove to you how it is 569 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 2: not true. Listen to this. This is from a study 570 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 2: done in nations with the most amount of pornography. They 571 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,720 Speaker 2: first they did it in American states that had obscenity laws, 572 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 2: and then didn't have obscenity laws. When they had obscenity 573 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,760 Speaker 2: laws and suppressed pornography, did rape go down and violence 574 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 2: or any sex crime? They found that there was no 575 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 2: correlation whatsoever. Then they went abroad for the same thing. 576 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,919 Speaker 2: And here I read to you. These findings are conc 577 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,760 Speaker 2: disistant with data from several other kinds of studies, including 578 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 2: cross cultural investigations. Puchinski nineteen ninety one examined the rate 579 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,600 Speaker 2: of reported rape from nineteen sixty four to nineteen eighty 580 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 2: four in Denmark, Sweden, and West Germany, the only three 581 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 2: countries to have legalized pornography. All three countries experienced a 582 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 2: considerable increase in hardcore hardcore pictorial pornography, including the aggressive variety, bondage, sadomasochism, 583 00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 2: whipping okay. After legalization, however, no country reported a marked 584 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 2: increase of incidents of rape. Any increase appears to have 585 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,720 Speaker 2: been due, even if partially, to better reporting methods. Government 586 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 2: commissions in Denmark, England, Israel, Norway, Sweden, and West Germany 587 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 2: have found no connection between the availability of pornography in 588 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 2: their countries and us the incidents of sex crimes. A 589 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,600 Speaker 2: comment on this, One of the things I've learned in 590 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 2: seventeen years of radio is there is no activist in 591 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 2: the world, right or left, who believes truth is more 592 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 2: important than his particular idealism. None. I believe that there 593 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 2: is zero. Whatever it is you most believe in, truth 594 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 2: is second to that passion. To those who hate pornography, 595 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 2: truth is secondary. Just as on the left you will 596 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 2: have it. In whole host of areas, people will just 597 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 2: not tell you the truth because they so believe with 598 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 2: such passion in what they want to show. For a 599 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 2: while it was we will show poverty causes crime. There 600 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 2: is a big deal, and so things would be made up. 601 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,840 Speaker 2: There would be distorted statistics and data. Whatever it is 602 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 2: to prove their anger validated. One can view masturbation and 603 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 2: pornography in ways that one wants, but please never lie 604 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 2: about the issue of pornography leading to violence. That's the statistics. 605 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 2: But let me give you the logic. Why if I 606 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 2: why would set First, let's say, why would sexually arousing 607 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 2: materially to violence? I mean, think about it? What is are? 608 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: They? 609 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 2: Are? They always interconnected? In other words, men who never 610 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,479 Speaker 2: engage in that are likely to be kind. The most 611 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 2: rapine army in modern history was the Soviet Army. There 612 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 2: was no pornography under Communism, nothing. It was utterly prudish 613 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 2: Communists Soviet Union correct zero when I went into the 614 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,800 Speaker 2: Soviet Union in nineteen sixty eight, in nineteen eighty, whatever 615 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 2: it was. I went three times to the Soviet Union. 616 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 2: They didn't almost care anything, but they took Playboy away 617 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 2: if you had it. I didn't bring it in knowing 618 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 2: that the you know, they didn't want it, they wouldn't 619 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,800 Speaker 2: allow it, but they searched for it. Maybe because the 620 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,799 Speaker 2: guards wanted or read it. But whatever it is, they 621 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 2: that was very big deal. None of this decadence from 622 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 2: the West. Meantime, their army was the most raping army 623 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:42,760 Speaker 2: in twentieth century history that we know of. Okay, so please, 624 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 2: you may think it's ugly, you may think whatever you like, 625 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 2: but it doesn't lead to violence this notion. Well, rapists 626 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 2: all had collections of porn, so what rapists all had 627 00:44:54,160 --> 00:45:00,040 Speaker 2: collections of soda? So what? Good men have collections of 628 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 2: porn too? Not about violent porn. Seeing women in bondage 629 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 2: and sato masochism and so on, does that lead to 630 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 2: sexual violence? Well? Does watching men killed lead to violence? 631 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,320 Speaker 2: Probably the in some unstable minds. I would acknowledge that 632 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 2: for the truly unstable, value free, it may well have 633 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 2: an effect. That's correct if you are immersed, as kids 634 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 2: are today in violence, and you are unstable and have 635 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,720 Speaker 2: no conscience. I do believe that an immersion in violent 636 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 2: violence not sexual violence. Most of the violence people watch 637 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,400 Speaker 2: is not sexual. It's just shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, 638 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 2: beat beat beat, beat, kick, kitkick. But except for that handful, 639 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,439 Speaker 2: it has no more effect then watching men get shot 640 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,800 Speaker 2: in a movie will make the average movie go or 641 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,359 Speaker 2: go and shoot a man watching a woman in an 642 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,160 Speaker 2: S and M film. But here's my ultimate proof that 643 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 2: it's irrelevant. Even the sexual violent form a lot of 644 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:13,400 Speaker 2: women here won't know. There's a lot of men here 645 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:19,360 Speaker 2: may not notice. There is almost as much bondage sado 646 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:24,760 Speaker 2: masochistic pornography about women doing to men the same things 647 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 2: that the men are doing to women. Half the men 648 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 2: probably like seeing themselves whipped by women or seeing another 649 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 2: man whipped by women, as much as there were men 650 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 2: liking to watch a woman being whipped by a man 651 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 2: or by another woman. So does that cause men to 652 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 2: whip men watching this stuff? No, of course not. It's absurd. 653 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,319 Speaker 2: So why whipping men has no effect on men? Whipping men? 654 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 2: Whipping women up? And they're all going to go and 655 00:46:54,719 --> 00:47:01,080 Speaker 2: commit rape. Sexual violent pornography is directed against men, and 656 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 2: of course gay pornography is certainly it's filled with bondage 657 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 2: of men filled with it. A lot of men like 658 00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:14,160 Speaker 2: to tie up their sexual object male, female, both or 659 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 2: what have you. Thus far, in my studies I have 660 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 2: not seen bondage beastiality. That is the only one. I've 661 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,239 Speaker 2: not seen a dog tied up. I'm sorry to be 662 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 2: asolia gross, but that has not come about yet, so 663 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,720 Speaker 2: it must be strictly visab people. 664 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: This has been timeless wisdom with Dennis Prager Visit Dennisprager 665 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: dot com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, 666 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,840 Speaker 1: and classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles.