1 00:00:20,186 --> 00:00:23,246 Speaker 1: Hi, friend. I'm so glad you're here today. Let's learn 2 00:00:23,306 --> 00:00:26,906 Speaker 1: how to raise our kids to love God, respect authority, 3 00:00:27,206 --> 00:00:31,076 Speaker 1: and do what's right. Let's scroll less and live more. 4 00:00:31,456 --> 00:00:38,806 Speaker 1: I'm Arlene Pelican, and this is The Happy Home. Today 5 00:00:38,826 --> 00:00:41,135 Speaker 1: is a very special day. I feel like I kind 6 00:00:41,176 --> 00:00:43,856 Speaker 1: of have like a rock star and a new friend 7 00:00:44,096 --> 00:00:47,096 Speaker 1: on the podcast today because that is Dr. Richard Freed 8 00:00:47,296 --> 00:00:51,816 Speaker 1: and I've read Wirechild. I have read Better Than Real Life, 9 00:00:51,855 --> 00:00:55,776 Speaker 1: How Silicon Valley's Secret Science of Persuasive Design is Stealing Childhood. 10 00:00:56,296 --> 00:01:01,336 Speaker 1: I quote him in my new book, The Great Tech Reset. Dr. Freed, Richard, 11 00:01:01,476 --> 00:01:03,556 Speaker 1: it is so what an honor to have you on 12 00:01:03,575 --> 00:01:04,935 Speaker 1: the podcast. Thanks so much for joining. 13 00:01:06,046 --> 00:01:09,636 Speaker 2: Arlene, I know your work and you're amazing and I 14 00:01:09,996 --> 00:01:11,136 Speaker 2: am blessed to be here. 15 00:01:11,436 --> 00:01:14,836 Speaker 1: Thank you. For those who are not as familiar with you, 16 00:01:15,016 --> 00:01:18,075 Speaker 1: you are a child and adolescent psychologist as well as 17 00:01:18,116 --> 00:01:20,356 Speaker 1: an author. You've been featured in the New York Times, 18 00:01:20,436 --> 00:01:23,075 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. You have two daughters, so you are 19 00:01:23,155 --> 00:01:26,806 Speaker 1: talking as a parent as well. So I want to 20 00:01:26,825 --> 00:01:29,726 Speaker 1: start with this. I want to give you permission to 21 00:01:29,806 --> 00:01:32,545 Speaker 1: scare us a little bit. So many times when it 22 00:01:32,566 --> 00:01:35,646 Speaker 1: comes to screens, we are just like, oh, hopefully it'll 23 00:01:35,685 --> 00:01:38,306 Speaker 1: work out, you know, and then we're scared of the 24 00:01:38,366 --> 00:01:41,276 Speaker 1: other stuff. What if my child is left out? What if, 25 00:01:41,295 --> 00:01:44,075 Speaker 1: you know, we're scared about the perhaps the wrong things? 26 00:01:44,655 --> 00:01:48,756 Speaker 1: What are you seeing as a psychologist? Why? Let's start 27 00:01:48,776 --> 00:01:51,436 Speaker 1: with the boys. Why do boys come to see you? 28 00:01:53,466 --> 00:01:56,586 Speaker 2: You're right. I am a child and adolescent psychologist. And 29 00:01:56,726 --> 00:01:59,906 Speaker 2: this started, I'm going to cheat a little bit and say, 30 00:01:59,946 --> 00:02:02,046 Speaker 2: this started for me. This is how long I've been 31 00:02:02,106 --> 00:02:08,856 Speaker 2: at this. And early 2000, somebody brought a girl to me. 32 00:02:08,856 --> 00:02:10,775 Speaker 2: I know we're going to talk about boys, but a 33 00:02:10,916 --> 00:02:13,055 Speaker 2: girl brought, they brought a girl and she was cutting 34 00:02:13,116 --> 00:02:16,495 Speaker 2: on herself at 11 and early 2000s girls did not 35 00:02:16,536 --> 00:02:19,376 Speaker 2: do that. Like now they do that in my mind 36 00:02:19,416 --> 00:02:22,046 Speaker 2: because of social media, but they weren't doing that at 37 00:02:22,226 --> 00:02:26,436 Speaker 2: age 10 or 11. And, Lo and behold, this girl 38 00:02:26,456 --> 00:02:29,476 Speaker 2: was on MySpace and living on MySpace at the expense 39 00:02:29,516 --> 00:02:31,815 Speaker 2: of her family. So that's what pulled me into this. 40 00:02:32,296 --> 00:02:35,916 Speaker 2: And that's what happens to girls. And to boys, we all, 41 00:02:37,256 --> 00:02:39,756 Speaker 2: with Gallo's humor, joke that we should have all invested 42 00:02:39,796 --> 00:02:46,046 Speaker 2: in drywall. Because all of our boys, or so many boys, 43 00:02:46,126 --> 00:02:49,625 Speaker 2: come in putting their fist through a wall, pushing their nice, 44 00:02:49,645 --> 00:02:52,406 Speaker 2: I hate to say moms get it, grandmas get it. 45 00:02:54,006 --> 00:02:57,115 Speaker 2: These big kids, as they get older, don't seem to 46 00:02:57,615 --> 00:03:00,115 Speaker 2: go after their dads. They go after their moms who 47 00:03:00,175 --> 00:03:02,416 Speaker 2: are trying to set a reasonable limit because the kids 48 00:03:02,916 --> 00:03:06,636 Speaker 2: failing out of school because they're on video games all 49 00:03:06,666 --> 00:03:08,725 Speaker 2: the time. So that's what you see. And, you know, 50 00:03:08,766 --> 00:03:13,546 Speaker 2: my colleague next door, he found or like he was 51 00:03:13,585 --> 00:03:18,136 Speaker 2: talking with a mom who found, let's say, 10. half-filled 52 00:03:18,296 --> 00:03:21,936 Speaker 2: water bottles with a yellow liquid in the room. Like, 53 00:03:22,136 --> 00:03:26,416 Speaker 2: why is that? Well, because kids can't get up to 54 00:03:26,436 --> 00:03:28,275 Speaker 2: go game, so they just urinate in place. 55 00:03:28,296 --> 00:03:33,836 Speaker 1: It's like, excuse me? Right? It's like, it's crazy. 56 00:03:34,776 --> 00:03:38,416 Speaker 2: Yeah, these products, you know, are labeled as games, but 57 00:03:38,516 --> 00:03:40,806 Speaker 2: they're not. If you peel back the onion, if you 58 00:03:40,826 --> 00:03:45,526 Speaker 2: pull back the screen, they are sophisticated for boys in games. 59 00:03:45,566 --> 00:03:49,926 Speaker 2: They are sophisticated... psychological conditioning chambers, like a Skinner box, 60 00:03:49,946 --> 00:03:52,546 Speaker 2: like you would put a rat or a pigeon in 61 00:03:53,066 --> 00:03:58,826 Speaker 2: and the same behavioral principles are applied. The same extraordinarily 62 00:03:58,906 --> 00:04:02,606 Speaker 2: high level brain scientists are being used to create these games. 63 00:04:02,626 --> 00:04:05,106 Speaker 2: These aren't like a, Oh, a nerdy game designer that 64 00:04:05,246 --> 00:04:07,406 Speaker 2: really lead it that I'm going to make this character 65 00:04:07,446 --> 00:04:10,986 Speaker 2: this way. It all is fed through a brain scientists 66 00:04:11,046 --> 00:04:14,206 Speaker 2: and AI to, to, oftentimes a dick to your kids. 67 00:04:14,366 --> 00:04:16,826 Speaker 1: How are we going to keep this kid playing? You 68 00:04:16,906 --> 00:04:20,876 Speaker 1: write about BJ Fogg and how he was at Stanford 69 00:04:21,006 --> 00:04:25,016 Speaker 1: and how frightening like his website was talking about, and 70 00:04:25,036 --> 00:04:29,136 Speaker 1: this is decades ago, machines designed to change humans. Can 71 00:04:29,156 --> 00:04:31,216 Speaker 1: you help us understand that when we hold a phone 72 00:04:31,276 --> 00:04:33,876 Speaker 1: or a tablet or a game console, we're not just 73 00:04:33,956 --> 00:04:37,736 Speaker 1: holding metal and steel and little parts. We are literally 74 00:04:37,815 --> 00:04:40,796 Speaker 1: holding machine that can change humans. 75 00:04:42,166 --> 00:04:47,736 Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's profound that the lead creator of 76 00:04:47,836 --> 00:04:51,255 Speaker 2: persuasive design, which is this addictive science, which is the 77 00:04:51,296 --> 00:04:56,255 Speaker 2: science of altering human behavior. He has probably the best. 78 00:04:56,296 --> 00:04:59,916 Speaker 2: He's a very smart guy, has the best definition for 79 00:05:00,086 --> 00:05:02,866 Speaker 2: how that works. And it's just as you say, machines 80 00:05:03,065 --> 00:05:06,826 Speaker 2: designed to change humans. And so when you hand your 81 00:05:06,846 --> 00:05:11,796 Speaker 2: kid a smartphone or a video game player understand what 82 00:05:11,876 --> 00:05:14,956 Speaker 2: this is really about. On the other side of that, 83 00:05:15,356 --> 00:05:19,806 Speaker 2: it is giving Silicon Valley a window into your kid 84 00:05:20,445 --> 00:05:24,466 Speaker 2: to alter their trajectory for their benefit, not your kids 85 00:05:24,505 --> 00:05:27,086 Speaker 2: or your families. And they all desire one thing, and 86 00:05:27,126 --> 00:05:30,136 Speaker 2: that's time on device. And it's going to, you know, 87 00:05:30,276 --> 00:05:34,056 Speaker 2: and these are machines. That's what persuasive design is. Machines 88 00:05:34,176 --> 00:05:39,996 Speaker 2: using design to make And that's digital machines, software designed 89 00:05:40,016 --> 00:05:43,716 Speaker 2: to take the highest levels of psychology to alter your 90 00:05:43,815 --> 00:05:49,076 Speaker 2: kid's behavior. And persuasive design needs to become a household 91 00:05:49,116 --> 00:05:50,356 Speaker 2: word in my view. 92 00:05:50,815 --> 00:05:53,596 Speaker 1: Yes, it's so true. Help us. Let's go dig a 93 00:05:53,596 --> 00:05:56,456 Speaker 1: little bit deeper in that. How, for instance, does social 94 00:05:56,496 --> 00:05:58,315 Speaker 1: media use persuasive design? 95 00:06:00,206 --> 00:06:03,766 Speaker 2: The essence of persuasive design in social media, you really 96 00:06:03,806 --> 00:06:08,616 Speaker 2: see Dr. B.J. Fogg. who's not my biggest fan. And 97 00:06:08,815 --> 00:06:13,716 Speaker 2: the way it works is we've spent essentially all of 98 00:06:13,776 --> 00:06:16,776 Speaker 2: our time during times of scarcity as hunters and gatherers. 99 00:06:16,815 --> 00:06:19,976 Speaker 2: Life has been really difficult. Our brains are not a 100 00:06:20,016 --> 00:06:24,366 Speaker 2: good fit for modern-day culture. So if you want to 101 00:06:24,445 --> 00:06:27,586 Speaker 2: manipulate us, as Fogg will tell us, go after that 102 00:06:27,686 --> 00:06:32,726 Speaker 2: Stone Age brain. And what you're going to do is, 103 00:06:32,846 --> 00:06:36,166 Speaker 2: in Fogg's formula... And, you know, I got into psychology 104 00:06:36,206 --> 00:06:41,126 Speaker 2: to avoid formulas. They can look intimidating, but it's really simple. 105 00:06:42,026 --> 00:06:45,746 Speaker 2: Fogg's formula is B equals MAT. Behavior, which the social 106 00:06:45,766 --> 00:06:48,966 Speaker 2: media industry wants. Time on device all the time. And 107 00:06:48,986 --> 00:06:50,606 Speaker 2: the way you're going to make that happen is you're 108 00:06:50,626 --> 00:06:56,255 Speaker 2: going to inundate users with rewards. Motivation, that's M. And 109 00:06:56,276 --> 00:06:58,575 Speaker 2: you're going to threaten them with the fear of missing 110 00:06:58,716 --> 00:07:01,496 Speaker 2: out and these social connections. And you're all going to 111 00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:04,466 Speaker 2: put that on a on a slot machine intermittent variable 112 00:07:04,496 --> 00:07:07,046 Speaker 2: reward schedule of when I got likes, followers, and friends. 113 00:07:07,466 --> 00:07:10,346 Speaker 2: So that's M. A stands for ability, which is really, 114 00:07:11,246 --> 00:07:13,286 Speaker 2: we're going to make this, it's really simplicity. We're going 115 00:07:13,306 --> 00:07:15,166 Speaker 2: to make it really simple. You don't actually have to 116 00:07:15,206 --> 00:07:17,876 Speaker 2: go out and talk to someone and look them in 117 00:07:17,896 --> 00:07:20,156 Speaker 2: the eye. You can just flip through this and do 118 00:07:20,176 --> 00:07:23,076 Speaker 2: all this. And last one, T is triggers. We're going 119 00:07:23,096 --> 00:07:26,836 Speaker 2: to trigger you incessantly to get those easy rewards until 120 00:07:26,876 --> 00:07:30,766 Speaker 2: you develop your own internal habit. And so that's what, 121 00:07:31,486 --> 00:07:35,086 Speaker 2: Social media really gets girls, and it really robs them 122 00:07:35,226 --> 00:07:41,116 Speaker 2: of that. And our girls have this strength, a relative 123 00:07:41,156 --> 00:07:43,816 Speaker 2: strength in this social connection. And the social media industry 124 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:46,496 Speaker 2: has figured out a way to use that formula to 125 00:07:46,676 --> 00:07:49,876 Speaker 2: exploit that and to pull girls away from all real-world 126 00:07:50,316 --> 00:07:52,666 Speaker 2: social connections to put them in a back room alone 127 00:07:53,206 --> 00:07:53,686 Speaker 2: on a device. 128 00:07:54,466 --> 00:07:58,655 Speaker 1: I can see parents taking that formula, behavior, right, and 129 00:07:58,696 --> 00:08:02,656 Speaker 1: that motivation, ability, triggers, and sharing that with their kids. 130 00:08:02,696 --> 00:08:06,356 Speaker 1: Because I think as teenagers realize, you know, they know 131 00:08:06,396 --> 00:08:09,156 Speaker 1: maybe in the mind, okay, I'm the product, I'm the user, 132 00:08:09,176 --> 00:08:11,816 Speaker 1: you know, who calls their people users, you know, the 133 00:08:11,956 --> 00:08:15,626 Speaker 1: big tech and drug companies. So kids start, but it's 134 00:08:15,646 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 1: not enough. right? To make them stop because they are 135 00:08:18,556 --> 00:08:20,996 Speaker 1: so afraid of missing out. But the more we can 136 00:08:21,056 --> 00:08:23,756 Speaker 1: talk about persuasive design, the more we can talk about, 137 00:08:23,816 --> 00:08:27,386 Speaker 1: you don't have to live like this. Talk about video games. 138 00:08:27,486 --> 00:08:30,146 Speaker 1: For instance, the designers of Fortnite or a game like it, 139 00:08:30,286 --> 00:08:32,726 Speaker 1: how do they use this persuasive design? 140 00:08:32,746 --> 00:08:35,426 Speaker 2: Arlene, can I just jump back? And I want to 141 00:08:35,446 --> 00:08:38,376 Speaker 2: say what we need to help kids understand, and some 142 00:08:38,416 --> 00:08:41,056 Speaker 2: of them are starting to do this, is that the 143 00:08:41,116 --> 00:08:44,506 Speaker 2: fear of missing out is really less about, oh, I 144 00:08:44,546 --> 00:08:46,606 Speaker 2: need to be on that game or, oh, I need 145 00:08:46,626 --> 00:08:48,226 Speaker 2: to be on that social media to the fact that 146 00:08:49,206 --> 00:08:51,116 Speaker 2: there are a lot of, it's tragic, a lot of 147 00:08:51,116 --> 00:08:53,576 Speaker 2: 18 year olds waking up to say, I've missed out 148 00:08:53,696 --> 00:08:57,176 Speaker 2: on childhood. I've missed out on everything that I'm supposed 149 00:08:57,216 --> 00:09:00,416 Speaker 2: to have experienced. And I've been stuck on a screen 150 00:09:00,576 --> 00:09:03,476 Speaker 2: my whole entire time. I've been controlled. That is the 151 00:09:03,576 --> 00:09:06,576 Speaker 2: real fear of missing out. Yes. And we need to 152 00:09:06,626 --> 00:09:07,646 Speaker 2: wake our kids up to that. 153 00:09:08,306 --> 00:09:10,886 Speaker 1: I didn't have my first crush. I didn't have that 154 00:09:11,006 --> 00:09:13,486 Speaker 1: awkward moment of asking that girl on a date. I 155 00:09:13,546 --> 00:09:16,526 Speaker 1: didn't dance. I didn't, you know, all these things that 156 00:09:16,566 --> 00:09:18,066 Speaker 1: you didn't do that you're supposed to do when you're 157 00:09:18,086 --> 00:09:21,026 Speaker 1: a kid. That's so good. Boys, right? They're sitting, they're 158 00:09:21,046 --> 00:09:22,946 Speaker 1: playing video games. And as you say in your book, 159 00:09:23,166 --> 00:09:27,036 Speaker 1: once you get something that is better than real life, 160 00:09:27,046 --> 00:09:29,016 Speaker 1: how's that going to compare to, oh, let's go have 161 00:09:29,096 --> 00:09:31,756 Speaker 1: ice cream with grandma. Why don't you ride your bike outside? 162 00:09:32,176 --> 00:09:34,196 Speaker 1: Why don't you kick this ball with some friends? It's like, 163 00:09:34,236 --> 00:09:37,056 Speaker 1: this is not at all as good as my video game. 164 00:09:37,176 --> 00:09:40,426 Speaker 1: Talk about this persuasive design and dopamine and all those 165 00:09:40,466 --> 00:09:40,986 Speaker 1: good things. 166 00:09:42,246 --> 00:09:44,006 Speaker 2: Yes. I mean, I think we were talking about like, 167 00:09:44,046 --> 00:09:47,506 Speaker 2: how is persuasive design used in a, in a game 168 00:09:47,546 --> 00:09:52,866 Speaker 2: like Fortnite? Like firstly, we need to wipe it clean. 169 00:09:53,266 --> 00:09:55,616 Speaker 2: And when, you know, mom, I'm just going to be 170 00:09:55,676 --> 00:09:57,736 Speaker 2: on the game or just get me a game. It 171 00:09:57,776 --> 00:10:01,276 Speaker 2: is not a game. It's a Skinner box and Fortnite 172 00:10:01,356 --> 00:10:04,676 Speaker 2: is developed in, The lead designer on that is Dr. 173 00:10:04,816 --> 00:10:07,296 Speaker 2: Celia Hodent, who has a PhD from the University of 174 00:10:07,336 --> 00:10:11,056 Speaker 2: Sorbonne in Paris, and she was the lead UX designer. 175 00:10:11,096 --> 00:10:13,806 Speaker 2: So that means putting psychology into the game. So all 176 00:10:13,846 --> 00:10:16,726 Speaker 2: these designers are funneling all their stuff for her, and 177 00:10:16,786 --> 00:10:19,556 Speaker 2: she's going to turn this game into … a science. 178 00:10:19,596 --> 00:10:24,236 Speaker 2: And she talks about it's sickening, in my view, because 179 00:10:24,276 --> 00:10:26,936 Speaker 2: it's labeled as a game. But you hear Dr. Hodent talk, 180 00:10:26,976 --> 00:10:29,656 Speaker 2: and she's like, I'm going to go after the brain. 181 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:33,996 Speaker 2: I'm going to use fixed interval rewards, which is the 182 00:10:34,036 --> 00:10:35,796 Speaker 2: same language that we use to run a rat through 183 00:10:35,856 --> 00:10:40,036 Speaker 2: a maze. And she'll talk about luring people. Players back 184 00:10:40,076 --> 00:10:42,826 Speaker 2: into the game. And the whole thing is set up 185 00:10:42,966 --> 00:10:47,496 Speaker 2: like a Las Vegas casino. It is not– these are 186 00:10:47,546 --> 00:10:48,176 Speaker 2: not games. 187 00:10:48,416 --> 00:10:48,656 Speaker 1: Yeah. 188 00:10:49,416 --> 00:10:51,996 Speaker 2: And then just to think about like for all of 189 00:10:52,056 --> 00:10:55,316 Speaker 2: human history if you were a boy– Um, your job 190 00:10:55,476 --> 00:10:58,076 Speaker 2: was to learn how to be really good at hunting 191 00:10:58,126 --> 00:11:01,346 Speaker 2: and fighting and really good at building shelter. And that's 192 00:11:01,386 --> 00:11:04,946 Speaker 2: the only way that your tribal leader was going to say, okay, you, you, 193 00:11:04,986 --> 00:11:07,086 Speaker 2: you can mate now, or you have a mate and, 194 00:11:07,326 --> 00:11:09,566 Speaker 2: or if you wanted the really desirable mate, you have 195 00:11:09,586 --> 00:11:12,576 Speaker 2: to be really good at those things. You had to be, 196 00:11:12,826 --> 00:11:15,226 Speaker 2: and that's really hard to be a really good hunter 197 00:11:15,246 --> 00:11:16,566 Speaker 2: and gather. I went out in my yard the other 198 00:11:16,606 --> 00:11:19,166 Speaker 2: day to try to tell a deer, stop eating my flowers. 199 00:11:19,206 --> 00:11:21,546 Speaker 2: And it just went over a seven foot fence. I'm like, 200 00:11:21,846 --> 00:11:24,806 Speaker 2: I thought to myself, if I had a spear, like 201 00:11:24,926 --> 00:11:27,256 Speaker 2: how in God's name, it's really hard to do these things. 202 00:11:27,276 --> 00:11:28,936 Speaker 1: How would I do that? Right. 203 00:11:29,076 --> 00:11:32,916 Speaker 2: But so what Fortnite does is give the whole, the 204 00:11:32,956 --> 00:11:36,556 Speaker 2: way you get points in Fortnite is you, you know, 205 00:11:36,596 --> 00:11:39,116 Speaker 2: it's built to go after those instinctual rewards. The things 206 00:11:39,156 --> 00:11:42,776 Speaker 2: you get points for are hunting and fighting and building shelter. 207 00:11:43,496 --> 00:11:45,316 Speaker 2: And all you need to do as a boy to 208 00:11:45,936 --> 00:11:49,786 Speaker 2: get these instinctual rewards that tell you that I'm, succeeding 209 00:11:49,806 --> 00:11:51,846 Speaker 2: in life is just to roll over on your bed 210 00:11:51,906 --> 00:11:56,346 Speaker 2: pull open your phone and and open fortnight it's it's 211 00:11:56,466 --> 00:11:59,346 Speaker 2: deception at the at the highest level and that's why 212 00:11:59,386 --> 00:12:01,876 Speaker 2: i call my book better than real life because these 213 00:12:02,076 --> 00:12:04,476 Speaker 2: all these products that's what persuasive design is we're going 214 00:12:04,496 --> 00:12:08,396 Speaker 2: to build a product that is experimentally uh better than 215 00:12:08,436 --> 00:12:08,956 Speaker 2: real life. 216 00:12:09,586 --> 00:12:12,066 Speaker 1: And I'm so sad, right, as you're talking because it is, 217 00:12:12,086 --> 00:12:14,546 Speaker 1: you're right, it is sickening. And I think for a 218 00:12:14,586 --> 00:12:18,716 Speaker 1: parent to feel disgusted, like, wait, this is war with 219 00:12:18,776 --> 00:12:21,196 Speaker 1: this thing because this thing is trying to lure my 220 00:12:21,276 --> 00:12:24,576 Speaker 1: boy into learning these skills that God really made him 221 00:12:24,596 --> 00:12:28,676 Speaker 1: to do so he could continue and he could get 222 00:12:28,716 --> 00:12:30,806 Speaker 1: a job and he could leave my house and he 223 00:12:30,886 --> 00:12:33,186 Speaker 1: could be our hero, right? And he can be mature 224 00:12:33,226 --> 00:12:36,446 Speaker 1: and all these things. And this game, this Skinner's box 225 00:12:36,626 --> 00:12:41,006 Speaker 1: is taking all that away from him. So let's just 226 00:12:41,046 --> 00:12:43,546 Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit. What would your advice 227 00:12:43,616 --> 00:12:46,096 Speaker 1: be to that parent who really needs to dial into 228 00:12:46,136 --> 00:12:49,916 Speaker 1: that disgust of what you became? Social media are not 229 00:12:49,936 --> 00:12:52,056 Speaker 1: going to take my child away. I don't want to 230 00:12:52,096 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 1: have to send as good as you are, Dr. 231 00:12:53,716 --> 00:12:53,936 Speaker 2: Freed. 232 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:56,236 Speaker 1: I don't want to have to send my child to him. 233 00:12:56,256 --> 00:13:02,686 Speaker 2: And I mean, truthfully, I tell parents. my colleagues and 234 00:13:02,766 --> 00:13:04,626 Speaker 2: people that want to, you know, I'm doing better at 235 00:13:04,666 --> 00:13:08,186 Speaker 2: prevention to try to treat an addicted kid that will, 236 00:13:08,906 --> 00:13:11,746 Speaker 2: I was doing a talk back in New York city. And, um, 237 00:13:12,306 --> 00:13:15,026 Speaker 2: after I finished up at a school, a mom came 238 00:13:15,086 --> 00:13:17,296 Speaker 2: up and talked with me privately and said, you know, 239 00:13:18,436 --> 00:13:22,196 Speaker 2: if I limit my 17 year old video videos games, 240 00:13:22,396 --> 00:13:23,356 Speaker 2: he he's going to hurt me. 241 00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:24,116 Speaker 1: Yeah. 242 00:13:24,496 --> 00:13:28,016 Speaker 2: And she was right. Like I, she's a great mom. 243 00:13:28,356 --> 00:13:31,976 Speaker 2: She knows her kid. What we want to do is 244 00:13:32,056 --> 00:13:37,546 Speaker 2: understand that it works much better to prevent that than 245 00:13:37,586 --> 00:13:40,146 Speaker 2: to try to treat that, to try to treat a 246 00:13:41,266 --> 00:13:45,046 Speaker 2: potentially violent 17-year-old kid that's failing out of school, that 247 00:13:45,386 --> 00:13:50,026 Speaker 2: has lost touch with reality, that doesn't care one iota 248 00:13:50,126 --> 00:13:54,916 Speaker 2: about his family because he's video games have become his world. 249 00:13:54,976 --> 00:13:58,256 Speaker 2: His community is, are these people around the world where 250 00:13:58,296 --> 00:14:01,616 Speaker 2: he gets, and they, these kids don't care about their, 251 00:14:02,436 --> 00:14:04,956 Speaker 2: their family. They don't care about school. They don't, they, 252 00:14:05,076 --> 00:14:08,006 Speaker 2: they've lost touch with the real world. So what we 253 00:14:08,036 --> 00:14:12,266 Speaker 2: want to do ideally is, you know, we're doing this, um, Jonathan, hi, 254 00:14:12,346 --> 00:14:15,086 Speaker 2: Jean Twenge have done a really good job about helping 255 00:14:15,146 --> 00:14:17,206 Speaker 2: us understand let's push back the age when kids get 256 00:14:17,246 --> 00:14:22,046 Speaker 2: social media and smartphones. Um, and actually height, is now 257 00:14:22,126 --> 00:14:25,406 Speaker 2: kind of saying after he wrote The Anxious Generation, oh, 258 00:14:26,146 --> 00:14:28,606 Speaker 2: boys are actually being hurt more by video games and 259 00:14:28,626 --> 00:14:32,156 Speaker 2: these technologies than girls are potentially being hurt by social media. 260 00:14:32,456 --> 00:14:36,776 Speaker 2: So yeah, I think what a lot of us, including 261 00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:41,666 Speaker 2: Melanie Hempe at ScreenStrong, who's just really strong with all this. 262 00:14:42,126 --> 00:14:44,726 Speaker 2: And that's an amazing resource for parents. If you want 263 00:14:44,746 --> 00:14:45,226 Speaker 2: to go to ScreenStrong. 264 00:14:45,246 --> 00:14:47,346 Speaker 1: Yes, we've had Melanie and her son on the show. 265 00:14:47,386 --> 00:14:51,516 Speaker 2: Yes. She's... uh we've we've found each other a long 266 00:14:51,556 --> 00:14:53,856 Speaker 2: time ago and we've been on the same page but 267 00:14:53,896 --> 00:14:56,156 Speaker 2: if we can as melanie says if we can push 268 00:14:56,196 --> 00:14:59,416 Speaker 2: back the age when kids are getting uh these video 269 00:14:59,436 --> 00:15:01,726 Speaker 2: game systems much like we're pushing back the age when 270 00:15:01,746 --> 00:15:03,506 Speaker 2: we're realizing we shouldn't rush to give a kid a 271 00:15:03,926 --> 00:15:06,466 Speaker 2: smartphone and get them on social media i think that 272 00:15:06,566 --> 00:15:09,686 Speaker 2: the ideal way is we're going to say you know 273 00:15:09,726 --> 00:15:12,076 Speaker 2: when grandparents say we got your kid a new xbox 274 00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:15,306 Speaker 2: or a new place like no can you Return it 275 00:15:15,386 --> 00:15:16,786 Speaker 2: because like, it's just. 276 00:15:17,226 --> 00:15:18,086 Speaker 1: We'll take the cash. 277 00:15:19,536 --> 00:15:22,536 Speaker 2: Like so many families disabled, you know, because I see 278 00:15:22,556 --> 00:15:26,336 Speaker 2: kids over time, they all say like, we're, you know, 279 00:15:26,656 --> 00:15:28,076 Speaker 2: we're a little bit worried about it, but we're going 280 00:15:28,096 --> 00:15:30,536 Speaker 2: to control it. Two years later, they're coming back. Our 281 00:15:30,576 --> 00:15:34,936 Speaker 2: kid's failing out of school to a person. It's just, 282 00:15:35,876 --> 00:15:38,056 Speaker 2: you know, it's like handing your kid, in my mind, 283 00:15:39,706 --> 00:15:42,506 Speaker 2: an addictive drug, methamphetamine, and say, just use a little bit. 284 00:15:42,706 --> 00:15:45,546 Speaker 2: It's always... there's a thousand people on the other side 285 00:15:45,566 --> 00:15:48,856 Speaker 2: of the screen doing everything they can to undermine your 286 00:15:48,876 --> 00:15:50,636 Speaker 2: kid's self-control and your good parenting. 287 00:15:50,816 --> 00:15:54,606 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's so true. As Tristan Harris said, and then I, 288 00:15:55,856 --> 00:16:01,496 Speaker 1: you know, that's why I love, I love that quote. Um, I, 289 00:16:01,546 --> 00:16:03,886 Speaker 1: that's why the great tech reset, you know, let's do 290 00:16:03,946 --> 00:16:06,566 Speaker 1: this as families. Let's do this in our own homes. 291 00:16:06,666 --> 00:16:08,786 Speaker 1: And if you're wondering how in the world can I 292 00:16:08,866 --> 00:16:12,356 Speaker 1: prevent this give me more details of how you do this. 293 00:16:12,616 --> 00:16:15,556 Speaker 1: Then you can get my book for free, believe it 294 00:16:15,596 --> 00:16:17,776 Speaker 1: or not right now. And that link will be in 295 00:16:17,816 --> 00:16:20,646 Speaker 1: the show notes. Um, the great tech reset. 296 00:16:20,696 --> 00:16:24,226 Speaker 2: I've read your book and it's amazing. And it, and, um, 297 00:16:25,646 --> 00:16:27,486 Speaker 2: you know, one of the things that's really important and 298 00:16:27,506 --> 00:16:30,846 Speaker 2: that we're missing out on is your, your book's all right. 299 00:16:31,006 --> 00:16:33,066 Speaker 2: And it talks about what faith communities can do. Um, 300 00:16:33,846 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 2: in part, like I would like faith communities to see 301 00:16:36,856 --> 00:16:40,016 Speaker 2: this as their fight. Like, it is robbing kids of 302 00:16:40,156 --> 00:16:44,196 Speaker 2: everything that we're talking about, you know, in the congregation, 303 00:16:44,216 --> 00:16:47,486 Speaker 2: like we're there like, okay. And then, you know, we're 304 00:16:47,506 --> 00:16:48,666 Speaker 2: going to go home and our kid's going to be 305 00:16:48,706 --> 00:16:50,766 Speaker 2: on this. Like none of that's going to stick. Your 306 00:16:50,786 --> 00:16:53,086 Speaker 2: kid's going to get robbed away from everything that we 307 00:16:53,126 --> 00:16:55,846 Speaker 2: just talked about. Like, and do, and it works so much. 308 00:16:56,786 --> 00:16:59,126 Speaker 2: It works so well to do this as a community. Hey, 309 00:16:59,186 --> 00:17:02,276 Speaker 2: like maybe let's push back together. The age when smartphone, 310 00:17:02,306 --> 00:17:05,516 Speaker 2: social media and video games, let's do this together. Yes. 311 00:17:06,205 --> 00:17:09,505 Speaker 1: Yeah. And even if, you know, I've become more realistic 312 00:17:09,646 --> 00:17:12,215 Speaker 1: that I'll think, okay, not every single person that listens 313 00:17:12,256 --> 00:17:15,076 Speaker 1: to this podcast is going to say, okay, I'm going 314 00:17:15,096 --> 00:17:17,755 Speaker 1: to wait on social media, you know, till age 16, 315 00:17:17,756 --> 00:17:19,995 Speaker 1: till age 18. I'm going to wait until a smartphone 316 00:17:20,056 --> 00:17:23,095 Speaker 1: till age 16 to age 18. You know, and I 317 00:17:23,136 --> 00:17:24,976 Speaker 1: highly recommend that by the way, and we both do. 318 00:17:25,416 --> 00:17:28,105 Speaker 1: But if we can get one of you, one out 319 00:17:28,146 --> 00:17:30,746 Speaker 1: of 10 to say, I'm going to do that. You 320 00:17:30,785 --> 00:17:33,266 Speaker 1: could be that one. And that's going to be like 321 00:17:33,326 --> 00:17:37,176 Speaker 1: this wonderful push that, that, that can start this momentum going. 322 00:17:39,975 --> 00:17:41,755 Speaker 1: I want to, I want to talk about these myths 323 00:17:41,816 --> 00:17:43,946 Speaker 1: about video games and boys, you know, Oh, well, it's 324 00:17:43,985 --> 00:17:47,566 Speaker 1: going to make them better with their social skills because 325 00:17:47,666 --> 00:17:50,565 Speaker 1: they're with boys, they play with boys or their cognitive skills. 326 00:17:50,666 --> 00:17:52,646 Speaker 1: You know, let's, is this true? 327 00:17:54,326 --> 00:17:57,825 Speaker 2: It's, it's, it's a giant deception. It's one of the 328 00:17:57,866 --> 00:18:04,676 Speaker 2: most harmful things that you can do. Um, cigarettes, um, 329 00:18:05,255 --> 00:18:10,296 Speaker 2: we know are extraordinarily dangerous and so forth. What, what 330 00:18:10,535 --> 00:18:14,196 Speaker 2: researchers don't talk about is there is research that says 331 00:18:14,275 --> 00:18:18,515 Speaker 2: cigarettes actually prevent like just a few cancers and they 332 00:18:18,576 --> 00:18:23,765 Speaker 2: have benefits therefore, but it's extraordinarily irresponsible to go to 333 00:18:23,785 --> 00:18:26,886 Speaker 2: the public and sort of say cigarettes have benefits because 334 00:18:26,926 --> 00:18:30,926 Speaker 2: the overall effect on them is, is, is just extraordinarily destructive. 335 00:18:32,005 --> 00:18:34,236 Speaker 2: So you'll see on, there's a lot of people that 336 00:18:34,275 --> 00:18:37,636 Speaker 2: get paid by industry or I think a lot of 337 00:18:37,686 --> 00:18:41,586 Speaker 2: people that sort of are scared to say the emperor 338 00:18:41,626 --> 00:18:44,825 Speaker 2: has no clothes or for whatever reason it is, but 339 00:18:44,846 --> 00:18:48,046 Speaker 2: they have to throw in this video games, as you say, 340 00:18:48,086 --> 00:18:51,866 Speaker 2: have benefits and it would be either like a, an 341 00:18:51,926 --> 00:18:55,686 Speaker 2: extraordinarily small improvement in reaction time. And if we actually 342 00:18:55,725 --> 00:18:58,365 Speaker 2: look at the research of that, what it does is 343 00:18:58,446 --> 00:19:00,825 Speaker 2: video games, teach your kid to be a better video gamer. 344 00:19:01,306 --> 00:19:04,626 Speaker 2: Like if, if you're, you know, if you want to 345 00:19:04,646 --> 00:19:07,025 Speaker 2: teach your kid to have a better reaction time, take 346 00:19:07,046 --> 00:19:08,986 Speaker 2: them to the batting cage. That will also do that. 347 00:19:09,346 --> 00:19:11,746 Speaker 2: And they'll actually learn a sport. They'll actually learn about 348 00:19:11,785 --> 00:19:18,516 Speaker 2: hard work. They'll actually be around caring adults. Your little 0.001, 349 00:19:18,515 --> 00:19:21,955 Speaker 2: as you say, of improvement in reaction time has no 350 00:19:22,636 --> 00:19:26,955 Speaker 2: real world benefit. And what we see is instead that 351 00:19:27,015 --> 00:19:32,806 Speaker 2: video games are extraordinarily clear at wrecking boys' academic success. 352 00:19:32,866 --> 00:19:37,636 Speaker 2: Boys don't are getting beat by girls all through the grades, 353 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:41,455 Speaker 2: including now, which is really scary. If you're a parent 354 00:19:41,576 --> 00:19:43,476 Speaker 2: and you want your kid to go to college, try 355 00:19:43,515 --> 00:19:47,296 Speaker 2: to understand that 60% of college students are female. Why 356 00:19:47,376 --> 00:19:53,525 Speaker 2: is that? Because boys game and girls don't. And boys 357 00:19:53,785 --> 00:19:58,285 Speaker 2: are failing to launch. My practice is filled with, you know, 358 00:19:58,326 --> 00:19:59,606 Speaker 2: I see kids past the age of 18. 359 00:19:59,586 --> 00:19:59,716 Speaker 1: Yeah. 360 00:20:00,886 --> 00:20:04,116 Speaker 2: That my practice is filled with 18, 19, 20, 21 361 00:20:04,116 --> 00:20:08,426 Speaker 2: year olds that parents are realizing like my kid has 362 00:20:08,485 --> 00:20:12,835 Speaker 2: no real prospects of having like a successful life or 363 00:20:12,955 --> 00:20:14,636 Speaker 2: at this point, like they are in the back room. 364 00:20:15,015 --> 00:20:17,096 Speaker 2: They don't really feel like working. They don't really feel 365 00:20:17,116 --> 00:20:19,656 Speaker 2: like going to school. And they're just, Oh, they're with 366 00:20:19,696 --> 00:20:23,626 Speaker 2: their community there. You know, we didn't, I'm old enough 367 00:20:23,666 --> 00:20:26,116 Speaker 2: to know that we used to have smoking sections at, uh, 368 00:20:26,205 --> 00:20:29,586 Speaker 2: in high school. Yeah. Those were wonderful places for kids to, 369 00:20:29,965 --> 00:20:34,426 Speaker 2: for smokers to socialize. Sure. Go make friends with other smokers. Like, no, 370 00:20:34,946 --> 00:20:38,605 Speaker 2: like there are other places for your kids to socialize 371 00:20:38,676 --> 00:20:41,616 Speaker 2: besides a video game that we know are destructive. Have 372 00:20:41,656 --> 00:20:45,995 Speaker 2: them join a sport, have a play date where kids 373 00:20:47,196 --> 00:20:50,696 Speaker 2: make water balloons and do all that stuff. You can 374 00:20:50,796 --> 00:20:53,156 Speaker 2: all make friends that way. You're not making friends in 375 00:20:53,176 --> 00:20:55,955 Speaker 2: an environment that we know. is going to lead to 376 00:20:56,015 --> 00:20:58,076 Speaker 2: negative consequences for the majority of kids. 377 00:20:59,156 --> 00:21:01,995 Speaker 1: So if someone's listening and they have a seven-year-old boy 378 00:21:02,296 --> 00:21:04,896 Speaker 1: and they have not touched a video game, what do 379 00:21:04,916 --> 00:21:05,476 Speaker 1: you say to them? 380 00:21:07,656 --> 00:21:11,255 Speaker 2: You're blessed and you try to have that voice inside 381 00:21:11,296 --> 00:21:14,005 Speaker 2: of the mother, this caring, loving mom who came up 382 00:21:14,046 --> 00:21:19,265 Speaker 2: to me and said, you know, my kid's going to 383 00:21:19,306 --> 00:21:24,495 Speaker 2: hurt me. Understand that like this. Oh, it's quote unquote normal, 384 00:21:24,515 --> 00:21:27,516 Speaker 2: but understand today that, you know, I'm doing my best 385 00:21:27,535 --> 00:21:31,395 Speaker 2: to help understand that, that this, it's not normal. It's 386 00:21:31,436 --> 00:21:34,116 Speaker 2: changed boys. And like, I would work to build a 387 00:21:34,156 --> 00:21:40,295 Speaker 2: community at church or at, at school in your neighbors, 388 00:21:40,316 --> 00:21:43,315 Speaker 2: house of worship, wherever you go, like at your school, 389 00:21:43,396 --> 00:21:46,375 Speaker 2: like let's, you know, we're not gaming. Let's keep this up. 390 00:21:46,426 --> 00:21:50,106 Speaker 2: And let's, uh, we have this cadre, you know, have 391 00:21:50,166 --> 00:21:52,555 Speaker 2: come over, bring your scooters and, And our kids are 392 00:21:52,576 --> 00:21:56,136 Speaker 2: going to go play. And what you find is, you know, 393 00:21:56,156 --> 00:21:59,896 Speaker 2: all these parents are really busy today. Boys take care 394 00:21:59,926 --> 00:22:02,026 Speaker 2: of themselves. They can go run around and do scooters 395 00:22:02,106 --> 00:22:04,505 Speaker 2: and do all this stuff and have tons of fun 396 00:22:04,546 --> 00:22:08,985 Speaker 2: and ride bikes. And they're actually learning responsibility and all 397 00:22:09,025 --> 00:22:10,606 Speaker 2: they fall down and they skin a knee and then 398 00:22:10,666 --> 00:22:13,786 Speaker 2: they're back up. And while they're actually tough and they 399 00:22:13,826 --> 00:22:18,906 Speaker 2: learned that, because again, video games don't demand any effort. 400 00:22:18,965 --> 00:22:22,725 Speaker 2: So you'll like, you have boys that can't, lift a 401 00:22:22,765 --> 00:22:25,776 Speaker 2: pencil to do their homework. Like that's scary, but like 402 00:22:25,796 --> 00:22:28,515 Speaker 2: real world play is, you know, if you learn to swim, 403 00:22:28,556 --> 00:22:31,196 Speaker 2: if you do all those things are hard and difficult 404 00:22:31,316 --> 00:22:33,676 Speaker 2: and they apply to, to the real world. 405 00:22:34,235 --> 00:22:36,056 Speaker 1: How do you get the dad interested in this? 406 00:22:38,116 --> 00:22:40,676 Speaker 2: Um, I, uh, it was interesting when I went back 407 00:22:40,715 --> 00:22:43,506 Speaker 2: to New York and did four talks there with some 408 00:22:43,705 --> 00:22:47,306 Speaker 2: really amazing colleagues. And, um, I came back through Atlanta 409 00:22:47,366 --> 00:22:50,505 Speaker 2: and I talked, uh, there at a church to a 410 00:22:50,985 --> 00:22:55,266 Speaker 2: men's group. And in New York, you know, my, my 411 00:22:55,485 --> 00:22:57,985 Speaker 2: talks for way too long have been filled with a 412 00:22:58,025 --> 00:23:00,965 Speaker 2: lot of women that say, sure. Wish my husband were 413 00:23:01,005 --> 00:23:02,086 Speaker 2: here to hear this. 414 00:23:02,406 --> 00:23:02,866 Speaker 1: That's right. 415 00:23:03,126 --> 00:23:05,225 Speaker 2: My talks were, there were a lot more men there. 416 00:23:05,245 --> 00:23:07,926 Speaker 2: I would almost say 50, 50. I had a men's 417 00:23:07,946 --> 00:23:11,106 Speaker 2: group had me talk at this Atlanta church. Like men 418 00:23:11,146 --> 00:23:15,055 Speaker 2: are waking up to realize like, oh, I, I, I 419 00:23:15,196 --> 00:23:17,955 Speaker 2: I'm seeing my neighbor that their son isn't leaving the home. 420 00:23:19,265 --> 00:23:22,345 Speaker 2: Their daughter is disappeared to the back room and is 421 00:23:22,386 --> 00:23:25,325 Speaker 2: cutting on herself because she's on social media like that. 422 00:23:25,626 --> 00:23:30,056 Speaker 2: I see that myself. You see these men also like 423 00:23:30,416 --> 00:23:34,455 Speaker 2: saying I've always, you know, mom, you'll take care of 424 00:23:34,495 --> 00:23:36,196 Speaker 2: the kids when they're young. But when they get a 425 00:23:36,215 --> 00:23:37,815 Speaker 2: little bit older, man, we're going to be doing all 426 00:23:37,856 --> 00:23:41,056 Speaker 2: this sort of guy stuff. Wait a minute. I'm just 427 00:23:41,136 --> 00:23:44,196 Speaker 2: seeing my neighbor. His son doesn't give a darn about dad. 428 00:23:44,336 --> 00:23:45,736 Speaker 2: He doesn't want to go fishing. 429 00:23:45,775 --> 00:23:47,035 Speaker 1: Doesn't want to go on a bike ride. Doesn't want 430 00:23:47,056 --> 00:23:49,045 Speaker 1: to go on a boat. Doesn't play basketball. 431 00:23:50,366 --> 00:23:54,366 Speaker 2: You know, I'll take you on a trip anywhere. Hawaii, whatever. Nah, 432 00:23:54,785 --> 00:23:56,825 Speaker 2: I ain't doing it. God forbid you go to Hawaii. 433 00:23:56,985 --> 00:24:02,475 Speaker 2: He never wanted to leave the hotel room. So dads are, 434 00:24:02,975 --> 00:24:05,896 Speaker 2: I hope are coming on board to realize this is 435 00:24:05,936 --> 00:24:06,636 Speaker 2: their fight too. 436 00:24:07,056 --> 00:24:07,256 Speaker 1: Yeah. 437 00:24:07,336 --> 00:24:09,696 Speaker 2: And, And here we go and get together in a 438 00:24:09,755 --> 00:24:13,496 Speaker 2: men's group and say like, let's raise, let's, you know, 439 00:24:13,515 --> 00:24:16,615 Speaker 2: to be a real man today is not to have 440 00:24:16,656 --> 00:24:18,515 Speaker 2: your kid. Oh, I'm going to have your kid be 441 00:24:18,556 --> 00:24:21,715 Speaker 2: a real man. Like kids don't become real men sitting 442 00:24:21,735 --> 00:24:24,576 Speaker 2: there playing a game in the back room. That's, that's 443 00:24:25,616 --> 00:24:27,946 Speaker 2: convincing them that at age 23, that that's what they're 444 00:24:27,965 --> 00:24:31,365 Speaker 2: still supposed to be doing. Yeah. So yeah, let's raise a, 445 00:24:31,525 --> 00:24:35,426 Speaker 2: you know, guys are like, I want to raise a 446 00:24:35,446 --> 00:24:37,085 Speaker 2: man's man. I'm going to do all this. Yeah. To 447 00:24:37,126 --> 00:24:39,446 Speaker 2: go get your kid off the game. And that will 448 00:24:39,485 --> 00:24:42,225 Speaker 2: help you. You'll raise much more healthy kids. 449 00:24:43,426 --> 00:24:45,646 Speaker 1: You know, teens love to rebel. They love to just 450 00:24:45,666 --> 00:24:47,846 Speaker 1: go against the status quo. So this is the most 451 00:24:47,985 --> 00:24:50,346 Speaker 1: amazing way to rebel is to say we do not 452 00:24:50,406 --> 00:24:53,946 Speaker 1: accept Silicon Valley's control over our lives. Will you talk 453 00:24:53,985 --> 00:24:56,276 Speaker 1: about that a little bit? Just how we can maybe 454 00:24:56,306 --> 00:24:59,936 Speaker 1: inspire youth to say, hey, I don't want to be 455 00:24:59,995 --> 00:25:01,936 Speaker 1: the one that people are pulling my strings. 456 00:25:03,896 --> 00:25:06,396 Speaker 2: I think, you know, we have to be really, your 457 00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:13,065 Speaker 2: questions are amazing. Arlene, you know this stuff back and forth. Anyway, 458 00:25:15,265 --> 00:25:17,525 Speaker 2: today you're going to hear about this media literacy, and 459 00:25:17,586 --> 00:25:20,005 Speaker 2: a lot of it is coming from industry, which is 460 00:25:20,086 --> 00:25:22,605 Speaker 2: trying to convince you, give your kid a smartphone, give 461 00:25:22,626 --> 00:25:24,825 Speaker 2: your kid social media, give your kid video games, and 462 00:25:24,886 --> 00:25:27,815 Speaker 2: media literacy is supposedly going to teach your kid to 463 00:25:27,916 --> 00:25:31,036 Speaker 2: use it effectively. Meanwhile, we have the world's best brain 464 00:25:31,056 --> 00:25:34,006 Speaker 2: scientists and AI going after your kid Good luck to them. 465 00:25:34,066 --> 00:25:37,525 Speaker 2: That doesn't work. What we want to have, the best 466 00:25:37,606 --> 00:25:40,586 Speaker 2: media literacy that we want to teach kids is this 467 00:25:40,626 --> 00:25:48,535 Speaker 2: stuff is purposely there to rob you of childhood. You've 468 00:25:48,576 --> 00:25:51,396 Speaker 2: seen when you go over to your friend's house and 469 00:25:51,576 --> 00:25:53,056 Speaker 2: they don't want to play with you or they won't 470 00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:55,416 Speaker 2: look up because they're on their tablet or you go 471 00:25:55,455 --> 00:25:57,936 Speaker 2: to school and nobody will look up because they're all 472 00:25:57,955 --> 00:26:01,395 Speaker 2: on their phone. I want you to– and there are– 473 00:26:01,656 --> 00:26:05,835 Speaker 2: like lots of groups of young adults who are saying, 474 00:26:05,856 --> 00:26:11,005 Speaker 2: I don't want a, a lot of, you know, Cal 475 00:26:11,035 --> 00:26:13,656 Speaker 2: Newport has written a lot of neat books. And there's a, 476 00:26:13,765 --> 00:26:16,446 Speaker 2: there's a cadre of, of young men who are saying like, 477 00:26:16,765 --> 00:26:19,625 Speaker 2: Holy cow, like I want to be successful and all 478 00:26:19,666 --> 00:26:21,886 Speaker 2: this stuff is robbing me. And Cal will say like, yeah, 479 00:26:21,906 --> 00:26:26,416 Speaker 2: let's limit this stuff. And it's really works best with, 480 00:26:27,765 --> 00:26:32,146 Speaker 2: when kids do this, when kids understand this themselves, it's 481 00:26:32,205 --> 00:26:34,265 Speaker 2: hard in modern day culture. We used to live in 482 00:26:34,306 --> 00:26:39,205 Speaker 2: these groups and tribes. And if some outside group came 483 00:26:39,285 --> 00:26:42,245 Speaker 2: to you and tried to steal your kids away and 484 00:26:42,285 --> 00:26:44,696 Speaker 2: try to do all these things that get lucky to be, 485 00:26:44,936 --> 00:26:48,755 Speaker 2: you know, run off. But today it's all okay. Welcome 486 00:26:48,775 --> 00:26:51,635 Speaker 2: into our home Silicon Valley. Go ahead and manipulate my 487 00:26:51,656 --> 00:26:54,356 Speaker 2: kids in ways that we know are predictably okay, because 488 00:26:54,636 --> 00:26:57,716 Speaker 2: it's all all right. And these powerful organizations are, that 489 00:26:57,796 --> 00:27:01,335 Speaker 2: look like, uh, their child helping and parent helping are 490 00:27:01,376 --> 00:27:05,396 Speaker 2: really actually industry funded PR and are just trying to, uh, 491 00:27:05,785 --> 00:27:08,806 Speaker 2: do Silicon Valley's bidding no matter what happens to your kid. 492 00:27:09,505 --> 00:27:11,305 Speaker 2: You know, I want parents to go with what they 493 00:27:11,326 --> 00:27:15,555 Speaker 2: know in their heart. I think parents know this is, 494 00:27:15,676 --> 00:27:18,196 Speaker 2: this stuff is really destructive. I need to take action myself. 495 00:27:19,275 --> 00:27:22,516 Speaker 1: And I can attest with three kids, Ethan, Noel, Lucy, 496 00:27:22,715 --> 00:27:25,996 Speaker 1: got a college grad, college senior, high school senior, all 497 00:27:26,035 --> 00:27:30,505 Speaker 1: raised in Southern California, public schools, no phone, no social media, 498 00:27:30,586 --> 00:27:33,305 Speaker 1: no video games, all the way through high school. And 499 00:27:33,346 --> 00:27:36,825 Speaker 1: people say like, oh, Arlene, did they hate you? And 500 00:27:36,866 --> 00:27:40,035 Speaker 1: it's like, no, they loved it. They knew no other thing. 501 00:27:40,056 --> 00:27:44,146 Speaker 1: And they knew We have the advantage because we actually 502 00:27:44,245 --> 00:27:46,785 Speaker 1: can read books and we actually play sports and we 503 00:27:46,826 --> 00:27:49,176 Speaker 1: have real friends in real life and they're having the 504 00:27:49,215 --> 00:27:52,016 Speaker 1: time of their life. And when they did get all 505 00:27:52,035 --> 00:27:54,745 Speaker 1: the technology right in college, then they knew what to 506 00:27:54,785 --> 00:27:56,605 Speaker 1: do with it. I'm going to use this to literally 507 00:27:56,705 --> 00:27:59,355 Speaker 1: text my friend so we can go to lunch. And 508 00:27:59,576 --> 00:28:01,336 Speaker 1: I'm not, my son didn't all of a sudden start 509 00:28:01,376 --> 00:28:04,166 Speaker 1: gaming or start looking at porn because now I finally 510 00:28:04,265 --> 00:28:06,005 Speaker 1: gave him a phone. He just did all the stuff 511 00:28:06,066 --> 00:28:09,186 Speaker 1: that he normally does, music and ultimate Frisbee and soccer 512 00:28:09,245 --> 00:28:11,485 Speaker 1: and friends and learn the bass. And, you know, he's 513 00:28:11,525 --> 00:28:15,995 Speaker 1: just doing what he's always done. So this can be done. 514 00:28:17,176 --> 00:28:19,576 Speaker 1: I want to talk as we end that the solutions, 515 00:28:20,576 --> 00:28:24,936 Speaker 1: you know, it's pretty simple. It's like a huge problem. 516 00:28:25,735 --> 00:28:29,295 Speaker 1: But it has simple solutions, especially if your kids are young. 517 00:28:29,856 --> 00:28:32,846 Speaker 1: But I want you to talk about these golden three 518 00:28:32,886 --> 00:28:36,406 Speaker 1: things you talk about, physical activity, engagement with family, and 519 00:28:36,465 --> 00:28:39,506 Speaker 1: connection with school. Why are these three things really important? 520 00:28:41,826 --> 00:28:46,266 Speaker 2: Industry is going and through their minions and their handmaidens 521 00:28:46,366 --> 00:28:49,646 Speaker 2: are going to try to convince you when your kids hit, oh, great, 522 00:28:49,686 --> 00:28:51,466 Speaker 2: take care of your kid when they're little. But once 523 00:28:51,506 --> 00:28:55,166 Speaker 2: they hit preteens and teens, What you're going to hear, 524 00:28:55,646 --> 00:28:59,506 Speaker 2: what they need most is this online community. That is 525 00:28:59,886 --> 00:29:03,796 Speaker 2: the most destructive. That is destroying childhood. That is a lie. 526 00:29:04,976 --> 00:29:07,576 Speaker 2: For all of human history, if we look at all 527 00:29:07,616 --> 00:29:11,696 Speaker 2: these different cultures around the world, they are not stranger-based. 528 00:29:11,856 --> 00:29:15,615 Speaker 2: They are not online peer-based. They are family-based. And the 529 00:29:15,656 --> 00:29:18,056 Speaker 2: reason why those cultures have that is because that's what 530 00:29:18,426 --> 00:29:20,786 Speaker 2: our young people need, whether they are young, whether they're 531 00:29:20,806 --> 00:29:25,296 Speaker 2: a preteen or teen. There's lots and lots of amazing 532 00:29:25,376 --> 00:29:29,956 Speaker 2: solid research that ranks what your kids need most as 533 00:29:29,996 --> 00:29:33,075 Speaker 2: far as an emotional connection. And this is whether your 534 00:29:33,096 --> 00:29:35,686 Speaker 2: kid's eight and this is whether your kid's 17. And 535 00:29:35,706 --> 00:29:37,885 Speaker 2: I would say 18 and probably older than that. But 536 00:29:37,926 --> 00:29:42,246 Speaker 2: it's number one, family. Number two, school. Oh, what about peers? 537 00:29:42,626 --> 00:29:46,766 Speaker 2: Peers oftentimes don't show up. And there's some research to say, wow, 538 00:29:47,666 --> 00:29:50,916 Speaker 2: these really strong peer connections can actually hurt. Really? 539 00:29:50,936 --> 00:29:51,376 Speaker 1: Yeah. 540 00:29:51,636 --> 00:29:53,656 Speaker 2: Every day I see that in my practice. Oh, I 541 00:29:53,696 --> 00:29:58,296 Speaker 2: have my BFFs. They're best buddies. We're a tight group. 542 00:29:59,066 --> 00:30:02,036 Speaker 2: Next week, that girl's in the hospital because her BFFs 543 00:30:02,836 --> 00:30:05,616 Speaker 2: found her to be too attractive. Somebody's boyfriend was looking 544 00:30:05,656 --> 00:30:08,456 Speaker 2: at her. They just got bored and said, let's be 545 00:30:08,496 --> 00:30:12,956 Speaker 2: mean girls and let's blow her up. No. Family has 546 00:30:12,976 --> 00:30:16,016 Speaker 2: to be number one. And to see Silicon Valley and 547 00:30:16,056 --> 00:30:20,815 Speaker 2: their minions go after this and try to convince, uh, Oh, 548 00:30:20,856 --> 00:30:23,276 Speaker 2: that's what, this is what your kids need to find their, 549 00:30:23,616 --> 00:30:26,836 Speaker 2: find themselves with this online community and actually be put 550 00:30:26,896 --> 00:30:31,706 Speaker 2: at risk. I've had kids, um, be duped by people 551 00:30:31,746 --> 00:30:34,486 Speaker 2: from other nations that convinced them to send them naked 552 00:30:34,526 --> 00:30:37,866 Speaker 2: pictures and all this stuff. Like understand the reality when 553 00:30:37,906 --> 00:30:41,916 Speaker 2: kids are on Fortnite and Roblox, they are the, the, they're, 554 00:30:42,136 --> 00:30:45,266 Speaker 2: they're also seeing their, their, um, predators are going to 555 00:30:45,286 --> 00:30:48,105 Speaker 2: be going after them. And this is a wonderful opportunity 556 00:30:48,186 --> 00:30:52,956 Speaker 2: for them to, to have that. So, um, you know, 557 00:30:52,996 --> 00:30:57,256 Speaker 2: if I'm walking downtown and I see a, uh, a 558 00:30:57,556 --> 00:31:01,556 Speaker 2: teen daughter and a, and a mom like locking arms, 559 00:31:01,596 --> 00:31:04,496 Speaker 2: almost like old school or something like, yeah. that is right. 560 00:31:04,896 --> 00:31:07,506 Speaker 2: And you could tell that they're close and that's what our, our, 561 00:31:07,706 --> 00:31:11,766 Speaker 2: our girls need. And when boys like, you know, you 562 00:31:11,806 --> 00:31:15,326 Speaker 2: hear these, these big giant professional athletes that are kind 563 00:31:15,366 --> 00:31:17,686 Speaker 2: of mama's boys. Like I'm, you know, that's my mom. 564 00:31:17,706 --> 00:31:19,605 Speaker 2: She helped raise me. And I'm, that's the way it's 565 00:31:19,646 --> 00:31:23,286 Speaker 2: supposed to be all through childhood for our kids and 566 00:31:23,806 --> 00:31:30,496 Speaker 2: adolescence and outdoors. Like this is a, it's so disturbing 567 00:31:30,536 --> 00:31:36,056 Speaker 2: to me. The American Academy of Pediatrics, I work with pediatricians. 568 00:31:36,096 --> 00:31:38,876 Speaker 2: They're amazing. They care about kids. They care about screen time. 569 00:31:39,776 --> 00:31:44,216 Speaker 2: It's a wonderful organization, except their media group is aligned 570 00:31:44,476 --> 00:31:48,286 Speaker 2: with industry. Dr. Megan Moreno, who's the main person at 571 00:31:48,296 --> 00:31:51,846 Speaker 2: the American Academy of Pediatrics who provides screen time guidelines, 572 00:31:52,206 --> 00:31:57,226 Speaker 2: has been funded by Facebook. That is extraordinarily unethical for 573 00:31:57,266 --> 00:32:00,886 Speaker 2: this organization. And then the American Academy of Pediatrics, their 574 00:32:00,926 --> 00:32:04,216 Speaker 2: science-based experts say screen time is a cause of obesity. 575 00:32:06,116 --> 00:32:10,356 Speaker 2: Moreno's group says screen time is not that important. This 576 00:32:10,856 --> 00:32:13,436 Speaker 2: is apparently an organization that has the world's worst lawyers 577 00:32:13,736 --> 00:32:15,875 Speaker 2: or doesn't worry about getting sued down the line by 578 00:32:15,896 --> 00:32:19,146 Speaker 2: all these organizations that treat– you know how expensive it 579 00:32:19,226 --> 00:32:23,526 Speaker 2: is to treat child obesity? Anyway, so the American Academy 580 00:32:23,546 --> 00:32:28,065 Speaker 2: of Pediatrics, their media side has completely sold out and are– 581 00:32:28,466 --> 00:32:31,095 Speaker 2: And putting kids at risk, this generation of kids who's 582 00:32:31,116 --> 00:32:33,546 Speaker 2: getting sick, literally, because of their actions. 583 00:32:33,996 --> 00:32:35,776 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you brought that up because it 584 00:32:35,916 --> 00:32:38,135 Speaker 1: used to be, okay, two hours or less. And now 585 00:32:38,196 --> 00:32:41,736 Speaker 1: it's like, use your own discretion because we're not, you know, 586 00:32:41,816 --> 00:32:44,396 Speaker 1: every kid is different. Every content is different. It's really 587 00:32:44,436 --> 00:32:46,536 Speaker 1: not that important. It's like, wait a minute. So if 588 00:32:46,576 --> 00:32:48,815 Speaker 1: my kid is sitting in his room for eight hours 589 00:32:48,876 --> 00:32:50,876 Speaker 1: a day, that's not going to affect his health. Like, 590 00:32:50,956 --> 00:32:54,596 Speaker 1: it's kind of like, no, dad, these numbers actually do matter. 591 00:32:54,656 --> 00:32:57,206 Speaker 1: So I'm really glad because we'll think, oh, well, they 592 00:32:57,246 --> 00:32:59,466 Speaker 1: say it's okay because we're just looking for an out 593 00:32:59,606 --> 00:33:02,886 Speaker 1: because it's hard to to make these changes. But as 594 00:33:02,946 --> 00:33:05,865 Speaker 1: we have illustrated again and again, in this conversation, you 595 00:33:05,906 --> 00:33:09,326 Speaker 1: can have what is easy now, which is just to say, 596 00:33:09,386 --> 00:33:11,186 Speaker 1: that was a nice podcast. I really don't want to 597 00:33:11,226 --> 00:33:13,246 Speaker 1: rock the boat. Let me just continue with my life 598 00:33:13,446 --> 00:33:14,806 Speaker 1: and you will get the hard later. 599 00:33:16,006 --> 00:33:18,096 Speaker 2: That is so correct. You know, just do a little 600 00:33:18,116 --> 00:33:20,156 Speaker 2: bit of work early on. And one of the things 601 00:33:20,216 --> 00:33:22,436 Speaker 2: I want to say is all streams are not the same. Um, 602 00:33:22,696 --> 00:33:26,466 Speaker 2: Caitlin Carr, uh, has some great books and, I think 603 00:33:26,486 --> 00:33:28,126 Speaker 2: she has these stickers that either say, play like an 604 00:33:28,366 --> 00:33:30,286 Speaker 2: 80s kid or a 90s kid. Yeah, back in the day, 605 00:33:30,326 --> 00:33:34,036 Speaker 2: kids would watch a show with a sibling, watch a 606 00:33:34,056 --> 00:33:36,836 Speaker 2: movie with their family. They could actually sit through a movie. 607 00:33:37,636 --> 00:33:40,596 Speaker 2: And then it's done. And then they're out doing stuff. 608 00:33:42,426 --> 00:33:49,176 Speaker 2: movies and a show that you share, especially with family 609 00:33:49,216 --> 00:33:51,876 Speaker 2: or a sibling and watch that thing a lot or whatever, 610 00:33:51,916 --> 00:33:54,796 Speaker 2: the same darn thing, it becomes a cultural experience and 611 00:33:54,836 --> 00:33:57,746 Speaker 2: it doesn't have an agenda to steal your kid away. 612 00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:01,126 Speaker 2: It's just entertainment. It doesn't have the secret science of 613 00:34:01,266 --> 00:34:05,926 Speaker 2: persuasive design that video games, social media, and online videos have. 614 00:34:06,406 --> 00:34:09,085 Speaker 1: So that's what we're looking for parents, persuasive design. And 615 00:34:09,126 --> 00:34:11,826 Speaker 1: whenever you see it, you say that is not good 616 00:34:12,146 --> 00:34:15,216 Speaker 1: for my growing child. And if you will listen and 617 00:34:15,276 --> 00:34:17,916 Speaker 1: do something now that might be hard in this moment, 618 00:34:17,996 --> 00:34:21,076 Speaker 1: you will have easy later. Your drywall will be fine. 619 00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:24,616 Speaker 1: So please do the hard thing now. And I promise you, 620 00:34:24,676 --> 00:34:26,936 Speaker 1: you will have it easier when your child is an adult. 621 00:34:27,016 --> 00:34:28,576 Speaker 1: They will be able to take care of themselves and 622 00:34:28,616 --> 00:34:30,296 Speaker 1: they will not be going to the bathroom in a 623 00:34:30,336 --> 00:34:33,956 Speaker 1: water bottle. So thank you, Dr. Richard Freed. How can 624 00:34:33,976 --> 00:34:36,636 Speaker 1: people find out more about your book, Better Than Real Life, 625 00:34:36,906 --> 00:34:37,946 Speaker 1: and connect with you more? 626 00:34:38,906 --> 00:34:42,676 Speaker 2: Richardfreed.com is a good place to start. I've got a 627 00:34:43,216 --> 00:34:46,716 Speaker 2: sub stack articles there. I've got, I've done a few podcasts. 628 00:34:46,776 --> 00:34:50,656 Speaker 2: I am a busy person, but I've got, you know, 629 00:34:50,736 --> 00:34:53,016 Speaker 2: and then there's a newsletter that I'll send out when 630 00:34:53,056 --> 00:34:57,796 Speaker 2: I'm on a program or, and I so much, I'm 631 00:34:57,836 --> 00:35:00,496 Speaker 2: blessed to be able to share this moment with you 632 00:35:00,516 --> 00:35:04,256 Speaker 2: and Arlene, you and your, the great tech reset is 633 00:35:04,276 --> 00:35:07,936 Speaker 2: that you just know, you, you know, this stuff and, 634 00:35:08,136 --> 00:35:12,296 Speaker 2: and you have such wonderful, um, recommendations for parents. So 635 00:35:12,316 --> 00:35:12,656 Speaker 2: thank you. 636 00:35:12,776 --> 00:35:14,556 Speaker 1: Thank you. I've had such a good experience with my 637 00:35:14,616 --> 00:35:17,616 Speaker 1: kids and I want other people to have this experience too. 638 00:35:17,816 --> 00:35:18,496 Speaker 1: Thank you, Dr. 639 00:35:18,536 --> 00:35:18,796 Speaker 2: Freed. 640 00:35:21,616 --> 00:35:24,886 Speaker 1: I hope you've enjoyed today's conversation. I'd love to keep 641 00:35:24,926 --> 00:35:28,565 Speaker 1: in touch beyond this podcast. Click subscribe in the show 642 00:35:28,606 --> 00:35:31,166 Speaker 1: notes and I will give you my latest email to 643 00:35:31,226 --> 00:35:35,166 Speaker 1: keep up on what's happening with technology and kids. And 644 00:35:35,206 --> 00:35:38,076 Speaker 1: maybe you like reading or listening to books. I have 645 00:35:38,136 --> 00:35:40,335 Speaker 1: a lot of books. You could start with the big 646 00:35:40,396 --> 00:35:46,216 Speaker 1: three Making Marriage Easier, Parents Rising, or Screen Kids. A 647 00:35:46,256 --> 00:35:48,416 Speaker 1: big thank you to the team at Life Audio for 648 00:35:48,456 --> 00:35:52,835 Speaker 1: their partnership with the Happy Home Podcast. Check out lifeaudio.com 649 00:35:52,876 --> 00:35:57,296 Speaker 1: for dozens of other faith-related podcasts about prayer, Bible study, 650 00:35:57,416 --> 00:36:00,666 Speaker 1: and more. Remember, you don't have to come from a 651 00:36:00,746 --> 00:36:04,226 Speaker 1: happy home to create one. You too can have a 652 00:36:04,266 --> 00:36:04,806 Speaker 1: happy home.