1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 2: Do the people named on the pages of the Bible? 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 2: Really exist? How representative are the people in your book 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: of the Archaeology we have as a whole four Biblical figures. 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: It's probably somewhere in the area of thirty to forty percent. 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: We might have significantly higher in the New Testament, and 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: one of the reasons for that is it's closer to 8 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: our time. Also, it's the Roman period. There's a lot 9 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: more writing that was done and things that have survived 10 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: as well. But you know, it's a very substantial portion 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: considering how long ago all these events happened. Now long 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: ago these people lived. 13 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 2: Do the people named on the pages of the Bible? 14 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 2: Really exist? According to our guests today, archaeologist Titus Kennedy, 15 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: we find evidence for the existence of kings, general's priests, 16 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: governor's scribes, and more from prominent to obscure biblical figures. 17 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: The historical evidence supports the existence of dozens and dozens 18 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: of Biblical figures. Although he mentioned eighty seven Old Testament 19 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 2: figures and thirty seven New Testament figures in his new 20 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 2: book Archaeology and the People of the Bible, Doctor Kennedy 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 2: is here to talk about ten of those with us. 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: Good to have you back. Hey, I appreciate you invited 23 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: me on the show. 24 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 2: Let's jump right in, man, this is probably the fifth 25 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: or sixth time you've been on. People love it. This 26 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: is what I've been looking forward to since I knew 27 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: your book was coming out months and months ago. So 28 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: I sent you a list of ten that jumped out 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 2: to me, and I said, tweak this. So we came 30 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,279 Speaker 2: up with the list we agreed on. Tell us about 31 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: why you selected the ten were about to talk about. 32 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: Well, when you first sent it to me, you did 33 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: six ot and four anti characters, which I think is 34 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: a good division based on content and time period, and 35 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: we had a lot of the same ones in mind. 36 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: I was targeting for some really important biblical figures, but 37 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: also for some that are more obscure that maybe people 38 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: haven't read about, don't know much about. Some controversial slightly 39 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: controversial evidences for specific characters. Nothing too far out there, 40 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: but again, wanted people to get a little bit of 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: a sampling of what's the difference between these really firmly 42 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: established characters and some who we have evidence for but 43 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: there's not a consensus on it. 44 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: That's really helpful and I picked obscure ones because we 45 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 2: might expect certain evidence for the prominent Biblical figures, but 46 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: these obscure figures, we find evidence that they exist as 47 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: a whole gives credibility to the Biblical story, which we'll 48 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: get into. Now, what's your criteria for evaluing these figures 49 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: and the other ones in your book? 50 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: So the criteria I used is something that I built 51 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 1: up from earlier scholars. There's two or three books that 52 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: have been done in the past. In fact, one was 53 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: a PhD dissertation, and they were focusing especially on figures 54 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: from the time of the monarchy and the kingdom of 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. But this applies across 56 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: the board. And so first we have to have the 57 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: name match, and that may seem super obvious, but sometimes 58 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: we have situations where scholars have proposed that a name 59 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: found in an ancient text is a nickname or an 60 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: alternative name for a person named in the Bible, and 61 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: yet this is pure speculation. So those types I didn't include. 62 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: We also have situations in the Bible where someone is 63 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: only named by their title, we don't actually have their 64 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: personal name, and so I didn't use any of those 65 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: because again, this is going to be more speculative, it's 66 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: going to be based on circumstantial evidence. So we've got 67 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: to have the same name. Now, everyone should understand that 68 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: when you transition from one language to another, names can 69 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: look a little bit different, but we can see where 70 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: those changes take place in the pronunciation or the spelling, 71 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: so it should be fairly obvious the names match. That's 72 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: the first thing. The second thing is we would look 73 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: for something like their family lineage. Now we don't always 74 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: have this information, but oftentimes in the Bible it talks 75 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: about that this person was son of such and such, 76 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: or a brother of someone else, or or maybe his 77 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: wife's name was this, or his daughter's name. All right, 78 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: so we have some of these familial markers, and in 79 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: some of the ancient inscriptions we have the same thing, 80 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: especially the son of type of motif. So when we 81 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: have that, we can look at it if it in 82 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: the archaeological evidence in the inscriptions or ancient manuscripts. So 83 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: that's a second thing to look for. Now, there are 84 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: times when things are so obvious that we don't necessarily 85 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: need that, like if it's a king and we know 86 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: the time period. But when it gets to lesser known 87 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: or lower ranking figures that can become very important. The 88 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: third would be their occupation or their title, or some 89 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: type of accomplishment they had. And this could be king, 90 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: this could be scribe, this could be servant. So we 91 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: have a lot of different titles that we read about 92 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: in the Bible, and in many cases those match up 93 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: with the archaeological inscriptions. The fourth would be the chronological setting. 94 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: The person that we're looking at in the Bible needs 95 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: to be in the same time period as the archaeological inscription. Yeah, 96 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: we can't just pull something from two hundred years difference 97 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: and say, oh, look, we have the same name, kind 98 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: of the same region, So this could be that person, 99 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: but you know, it couldn't. It really should be within 100 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: a lifetime, so we're talking like, you know, fifty to 101 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: ninety years period, something like that. And another aspect of 102 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: this chronological criteria is that the archaeological material that we're 103 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: looking at it really should come from the time period 104 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: of that person. It should be a contemporary attestation. Sometimes 105 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: we have this from like the next century, and that's 106 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: all right, it's not as strong, but it's it's fine. 107 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: But we do have situations where we have a biblical 108 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: character name from a long time later, you know, far 109 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: far into the future. And while that's interesting and it's 110 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: some sort of evidence, it's more in the vein of 111 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: a tradition and it's just not as strong, And so 112 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: I didn't include things like that. For example, a Lot 113 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: is named in inscriptions of the of the Byzantine period, 114 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: but that is so many centuries after this lifetime that 115 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: we can't really say this is a this is a 116 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: historical attestation for Lot. It's a att testation that people 117 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: believed at that time that Lot was a historical character. 118 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: But so same time period. And then the fifth would 119 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: be the geographical setting. They need to have lived in 120 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: that place where the Bible says they lived, So all 121 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: these things need to match. You know, what was the 122 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: artifact found in Jerusalem and the person reign in Jerusalem, 123 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So those five, if we have 124 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: all those five, it's very firm. If we have three 125 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: or four of them, depending on which three or four, 126 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: it might be firm or very plausible. So I did 127 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: a rating system basically ABC and D, with AB and 128 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: the strongest ND being the weakest being speculative. And so 129 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: all these things were taken to account. Now there's a 130 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: sixth one that occasionally comes up, and that's more about 131 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: the artifact itself. Is the artifact surely authentic or not? 132 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: So there are some situations where we have artifacts that 133 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: were not excavated in a controlled archaeological project. Maybe they 134 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: were found on the ground by a tourist, or they 135 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: were found under unknown conditions and turned up on the 136 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: antiquities market, or they were looted in an illegal excavation. 137 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: So these need to be examined and evaluated by experts 138 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: to see if they are indeed authentic, because we do 139 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: have archaeological forgeries, so that's one to look at in 140 00:08:57,800 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: some cases as well. 141 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: And haveingly quality forgeries that even experts can't discern at times. 142 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 2: So that last one is really a chain of custody. 143 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 2: Can we get it to the place and the time 144 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 2: that's really important. Just mpsize the first one before we 145 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: jump in. Even doing my work on the Apostles, it 146 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 2: was like there's three James that could qualify his Apostles, 147 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: brother Jesus, son of Alpheus, brother of John, and sometimes 148 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 2: the descriptions are not given. You have Setonius who mentioned Crestus. 149 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: Is that Christ like each one of these are far 150 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 2: more in depth and debated than people realize. So this 151 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 2: careful kind of lineage or de lineage that you put 152 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: into this, I think is really really helpful. All right, well, 153 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: let's look one more question. We're gonna look at again 154 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: sixty Old Testament for the New Testament. So you have 155 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: eighty seven in the Old Testament, thirty seven in the 156 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: New Testament. I mean, if you had to guess, is 157 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 2: this ten percent of the Biblical figures that are at 158 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: least somewhere on your scale? Is this half? Is it 159 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 2: just hard to know, like how representative are the people 160 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 2: in your book of the archaeology. We have as a 161 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: whole four biblical figures. 162 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: In terms of significant characters in the Bible, you know, 163 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: not getting into all the random names that occur once 164 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: or we have no information about them, It's probably somewhere 165 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 1: in the area of thirty to forty percent. I think 166 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: the kings of Israel and Judah are tested somewhere around 167 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: that level, and I think it's fairly similar. We might have, 168 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: you know, significantly higher in the New Testament. And one 169 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: of the reasons for that is it's closer to our time. Also, 170 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: it's the Roman period. There's a lot more writing that 171 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: was done and things that have survived as well, but 172 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's a very substantial portion considering how long 173 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: ago all these events happened and how long ago these 174 00:10:59,440 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: people live. 175 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 2: I love it. That's great, all right, we'll circle back 176 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: to that sometime. Let's jump in and the first one 177 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 2: is my favorite biblical character, of course, Jesus beside, especially 178 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 2: in the Old Testament, is King David. 179 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, David is incredibly important both historically and theologically throughout 180 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: the Bible, so this is really a foundational person. But 181 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: oddly enough, until the early nineties, we had essentially no 182 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: archaeological evidence for the existence of David. Kind of a 183 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: head scratcher there, especially since so many excavations had been done. 184 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: But this is just what happens with archaeology. You never 185 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: know what you're going to find, and you never know 186 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: what you're not going to find. And because of this, 187 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: most archaeologists and ancient historians, and even a lot of 188 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: biblical scholars through the eighties and too the early nineties 189 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: were of the opinion that David was a mythological or 190 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: fictional character. Again, because we had no archaeological evidence for him. 191 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: All of that, though, changed in nineteen ninety three, and 192 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: then from that point on just more and more and 193 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: more has been discovered. So nineteen ninety three, the ancient 194 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,599 Speaker 1: site of Dan north of the Sea of Galilee being excavated, 195 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: and in the plaza in front of the city gate, 196 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: they take up this large stone slab and they look 197 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: at one of the sides of it, and on this 198 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: side there is an Aramian inscription, and so that you 199 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: know immediately it was a great interest, because you just 200 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: don't find stone inscriptions all that often. But as they 201 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: looked at it, they noticed this phrase their house of David, 202 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 1: which is a phrase that occurs in the Bible, for 203 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: example in the Book of Samuel, and that's in reference 204 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: to King David and the dynasty of Israelite kings that 205 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: he founded. So they translate this and they find that 206 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: it's a victory steely of the Aramians, probably haza El, 207 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: And so we have the enemies of the Israelites talking 208 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 1: about King of Israel and Judah that they defeated, and 209 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: how these were of the House of David. And so 210 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: we know from the context immediately it is indeed talking 211 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: about King David and the royal dynasty that he founded, 212 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: and so this changed everything almost overnight in terms of 213 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: the evidence for David being a historical person. And after that, 214 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,319 Speaker 1: the Mesha Steely was reassessed and the phrase House of 215 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: David was shown to be on there too, so that 216 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 1: was also an enemy of the Israelites who knew about 217 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: David and his dynasty. Both of these from the ninth 218 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: century BC, so pretty close to the time of David. 219 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: And then there's one other scholar who actually suggests that 220 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: David is referenced on this inscription or wall relief of 221 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: Pharaoh Showshank the first. It's maybe a little bit more tentative, 222 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: but worth mentioning. So we've got two, maybe three inscriptions 223 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: attesting to David. And then a few years later, Mazar 224 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: writes an article suggesting that she knows where the Palace 225 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: of David is that based on Kenyon's earlier excavations in Jerusalem, 226 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: there's some evidence for it, and wants to excavate. Several 227 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: years later, they start an excavation. This building is where 228 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: geographically we would expect the Palace of David to be 229 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: in Jerusalem, on the north side of the City of David, 230 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: on the slope down into the Kidron Valley, and the floor, 231 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: the original floor of this building when it was constructed, 232 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: it had pottery dating to before one thousand BC underneath 233 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: it and after a thousand BC above it. So it 234 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: seems like it was built right around one thousand BC. 235 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: That's the time of David and when he constructed that palace. 236 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: It's got massive walls. There's a Phoenician column capital that 237 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: was found what's called ashlar masonry, a type of stone blocks. 238 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: Phoenician ivories were found in there. And recall in the 239 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: Book of Samuel that it says that this Palace of 240 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: David was built by Phoenician artisans, so we would expect 241 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: some Phoenician construction technique evident. Well, you go forward in 242 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: time and you see that this building continues to be 243 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: used by the royal administration of Judah because of the 244 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: evidence from many administrative boulet, these little clay stamp seals 245 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: or stamp impressions from seals, and so it all seems 246 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: to together quite well. Now, not everyone agrees that that's 247 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: the Palace of David, but a lot do. There's also 248 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: possibly David's tomb in the City of David, southern part. 249 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: There's two monumental tombs. One might be David's, one might 250 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: be Solomon's. There are now investigations into all these different 251 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: fortified towns in his kingdom that it shows there was 252 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: a centralized government, so places like Quebec, Kayafa, Lakeish, mitzvah Beit, 253 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: Shemesh Dawara. All of this is piling up and showing 254 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: not only that David was a historical person, but that 255 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: he ruled over an actual kingdom. There's evidence of literacy 256 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: at this time, so they could write down the events 257 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: in the Bible. It's really become very strong archaeologically. 258 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 2: That is a stunning reversal. I was in the Palace 259 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen and our Jewish guy 260 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: and he's like, you just go back three decades ago 261 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 2: and what people believed about David has utterly been transformed 262 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: and changed. All right, let's shift to a different historical period, 263 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: kind of into the more divided kingdom of a wicked king, 264 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: King Ahab. 265 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: King Ahab is talked about mostly in One King sixteen. 266 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: There's a little bit of reference to him afterwards, so 267 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: he doesn't get as much a word count as David, obviously, 268 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: but he was one of the more prominent kings of 269 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: the Northern Kingdom, and geopolitically he was fairly powerful as 270 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: well at the time. So he's the son of King Omri, who, 271 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: by the way, is mentioned on the Mesha steely that 272 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: I referenced before he married the Phoenician princess Jezebel, whose 273 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: ceo with her name on it has been found, or 274 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: at least let's say probably it's not a one hundred 275 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: percent but likely her. One of his sons was Jehoram, 276 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,239 Speaker 1: and he's referenced on the Tel Dan steely, So we 277 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: see all of these people within his family who are 278 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: also attested. But as far as his archaeological attestation, a 279 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: couple of major things. The most prominent, the most definitive, 280 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: is reference from a steely of the Assyrian king Shalmanese 281 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: are the third who a haveb fought against in a 282 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: coalition of kings, and Shalmanese are the third named Ahab 283 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: as the king of Israel in this steely, and he 284 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: also mentioned that he had ten thousand soldiers and two 285 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: thousand chariots. This is interesting because Ahab has more chariots 286 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: than any other king, and that coalition so we know 287 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: he had this sizeable chariot force. Well, when Jezreel was excavated, 288 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: which is where Jezebel died, they found that this was 289 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: a fortress town that had a huge open area inside 290 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: the walls, basically like a massive parking lot that would 291 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: accommodate storing or parking his chariots. And we read by 292 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: the Assyrian sources he had two thousand chariots, so possibly 293 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: that's where he kept them. Now, there are a few 294 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: other things that relate to this king Ahab. One is 295 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 1: a bronze ring that has a Hebrew inscription that says 296 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: belonging to Ahab, king of Israel. But this is one 297 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: of those cases where we don't know the provenance and 298 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: we also don't really have great artifact parallels to evaluate it. Now, 299 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: I don't think this is in question as to its authenticity, 300 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: but maybe it's date. However, I would say that there's 301 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: a ring of Jotham that's authentic and it's got a 302 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 1: lot of similarities, so I don't think it's a huge problem, 303 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: but we do have the Assyrian inscription. And then finally, 304 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: I'd say one other really interesting and important thing archaeologically 305 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: connected to Ahab is the palace at Samaria, which his 306 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: father Omri originally built, but a have expanded it. And 307 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: the excavations found within this what's called the ivory house 308 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: of a have in one Kings twenty two thirty nine. 309 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: So it was this room in the palace that had 310 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: all of these elaborate Venetian ivories in it. And then 311 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: his tomb is probably one of the two tombs discovered 312 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: at the palace. 313 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 2: Also, that's amazing, and I want to make sure people 314 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 2: know that Ahab was the king and Jezebel who resisted Elijah, 315 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: one of the most important prophets of the Old Testament, 316 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: who appears in the transfiguration in Mark chapter nine. So 317 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 2: to have so many people, so many figures strongly confirmed 318 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 2: in the archaeological record long before the time of Christ, 319 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: is quite significant. All right, Let's shift to biblical figure 320 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 2: number or three Usaiah slash Azariah. 321 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: So this one is maybe a little bit more obscure. 322 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: I don't think everybody has probably heard about this king 323 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: or read much about him. He's not as prominent in 324 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: the biblical narrative, but he did actually reign for a 325 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: very long time fifty two years, and yet his attestations 326 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: are quite limited, and in fact, the most important one 327 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: is disputed by some scholars, even though it seems to 328 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: be a clear mention of him. So if we go 329 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: back to First Kings fifteen where Usaiah or Azariah is discussed. 330 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: In One Kings fifteen twenty nine, the Assyrian king Tiglath 331 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: Pilis or the Third is mentioned as fighting the northern 332 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: King of Israel, and this is during the reign of 333 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 1: Azariah of Judah. So we know that those those two 334 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: kings overlap. Tig Lath Police are the third in Azariah 335 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: or Usaiah, same guy. Now we go forward a little 336 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: bit in the passage and we see in the reign 337 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: of his grandson a has the Assyrians again under Tiglath 338 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: Police or the Third, they take a tribute from the 339 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: kingdom of Judah. That's what we read in the Bible. 340 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: So it's very plausible or even likely that these tributes 341 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: were going on just a few years earlier during the 342 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: reign of Azariah as well. Now I say this because 343 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: the text, the Assyrian text that we have relating to Azariah, 344 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: it comes from tig Lath Police or the Third okay, 345 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: who overlapped with him. It's from seven to forty three BC. 346 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: This is in the middle or the first half of 347 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: the reign of Azariah, and it says that he took 348 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: a tribute from as are Yahoo of Yahuda. Okay, so 349 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: this is where the dispute comes in. Some scholars are saying, oh, yeah, 350 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: that's obvious that it's Azariah of Judah, and others are saying, uh, no, 351 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: this could be somebody else. We have no evidence for 352 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: someone else with that same name and the same essentially 353 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: the same name of the country. So I don't know 354 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: why it's it's disputed so much, really, but this seems 355 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: fairly clear. However, we do have some additional archaeological attestation 356 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: for this king, and that comes from two eighth century 357 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: BC stone seals of some of the people in his 358 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: royal administration. One is Abayah, servant of Uzaiah, and then 359 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: the other is Chevna Yahu, servant of Uzaiah. So those 360 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: pretty solidly attests to his reign as king of Judah 361 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: as well. And then the third one, which I think 362 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: probably more people actually know about because they may have 363 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: seen this in the museum or read about it. It's 364 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: a little bit more widely circulated and pictured is something 365 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: that's often called the Uzaiah tablet. The problem with this 366 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: is that it's almost certainly a much later tom memorial 367 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: that was made around the first century. So it's kind 368 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: of like the thing I mentioned with a lot earlier. 369 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: It's talking about him as a historical character, and you 370 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: know it's from antiquity, but it's not from his time, 371 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: so we can't really use that in the same way 372 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: that we would this Assyrian source that's contemporary. In those 373 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: two seals that are contemporary. 374 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense, And I want to 375 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 2: highlight for folks that we have King David, one of 376 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 2: the most prominent figures. We have King Ahab, who is 377 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: time after David, a wicked king, and then a more 378 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: obscure figure like Usiah, with multiple lines of evidence that 379 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 2: he existed in that time in that place. Now we're 380 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 2: going to move to arguably, if not the most important, 381 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 2: the most commonly cited in the New Testament Old Testament 382 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 2: prophet Isaiah Virgin Birth, Isaiah seven, the Suffering Servant Isaiah 383 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 2: fifty three. What's some of the historical evidence that Isaiah 384 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: was a real figure. 385 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: Well, the archaeological evidence for Isaiah primarily comes from one artifact, 386 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: although I also think it's worth mentioning that the Great 387 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 1: Isaiah Scroll, which is probably the pinnacle of the Dead 388 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: Sea scrolls, is his complete book in Ancient Hebrew and 389 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 1: the scroll dates to the fourth century BC according to 390 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: radiocarbon tests from two different labs, so it's one of 391 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: the earliest, maybe even the earliest, of the Dead Sea scrolls, 392 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: and it comes from the Intertestamental period and it's not 393 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: too far off from Isaiah's time, so that's I think, 394 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: very interesting, but not contemporary. Right, So we go to 395 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: archaeological excavations in Jerusalem fairly recent really only several years 396 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: ago this happened, and Mazars digging there and they find 397 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:39,719 Speaker 1: this boule Okay, again, this is a result of a seal, 398 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: so it's stamped into clay, so it's not the seal itself, 399 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: but it's what the seal creates, so it's the impression 400 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: of the seal used to put over documents. And they 401 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: find one of Hezekiah, King of Judah, which is really 402 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: significant because that was the first Hezekiah Bulah to be 403 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: found in controlled archaeological excavation. Well right around there then, though, 404 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: they find another Boulah, and this one has the name 405 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: Isaiah on it. Now it's not just Isaiah, though it 406 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: is Isaiah on one line. And then on the bottom 407 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: line we have this word which looks a whole lot 408 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: like profit. Now I say looks a whole lot like 409 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: it because the very end of it is broken off, 410 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: so we're missing the final letter of profit. But it's 411 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: it's really implausible to suggest that it's anything else. There 412 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: are some ideas that maybe it was a reference to 413 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: a place name, but this is not consistent with what 414 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: we see in Boule. They're either talking about their family 415 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 1: relationship or their occupation. So Isaiah the prophet there, That 416 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: is the opinion of many scholars. Others still, you know, 417 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: dispute it a little bit or say, you know, maybe 418 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: it's it's some other word at the bottom there, But 419 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: that that would be our archaeological attestation for Isaiah the 420 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: prophet his seal impression from Jerusalem from seven hundred BC, 421 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: when he lived right in the area of one of 422 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: Hezekiah's seal impression the king that he served under. So 423 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: I think pretty powerful evidence there. We've got four of 424 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: the five criteria, and he was so prominent, really the 425 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: only prophet there in Judah serving in that role. That 426 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to say that could have been someone else. 427 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: That's a great fine now, of course, so far, anyone 428 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 2: who's read the Bible for five minutes or been to 429 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 2: church on Christmas knows King David and knows Isaiah. But 430 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 2: the next one, some people might think you might have 431 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 2: even made up this name, and I might even mispronounce it. 432 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: The funny thing is you read these names, but then 433 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: when you pronounce it might be a little different. Would 434 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: be a dramak. So correct my pronunciation if that's not right, 435 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 2: And tell us about this figure. 436 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, this guy in the Bible, he is called Adramelic, 437 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: but in Assyrian sources it's Arta Mulisu. So here's some 438 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: of the situations where we have a little bit of 439 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 1: change from one language to the other. Sometimes consonants get flipped. 440 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: This is called metathesis. It's a common issue. It doesn't 441 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: disqualify the name equivalence, and in fact this identification is 442 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: really not disputed. But he is a very obscure character 443 00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: because he's really mentioned in one specific event that is 444 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: recorded in one verse in Second King's nineteen and then 445 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: in a verse in Isaiah thirty seven, and it's the 446 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: same event, it's the same words even so kind of 447 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: doubling up on this. It is a significant event geopolitically, 448 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: but it's not that significant in terms of the Kingdom 449 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: of Judah or the Israelites. So Odre Melek was one 450 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: of the sons of King Sanakrib, So King Sinakreb for 451 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: those who don't remember this guy. He was the Assyrian 452 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: king who came and he attacked Judah during the time 453 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: of Hezekiah. Basically took all the cities and towns of 454 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: Judah except for Jerusalem be sie. Jerusalem wanted to take 455 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: that over, but the lord came and destroyed his officers 456 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: mighty warriors, and then he went back to his capital 457 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: Nineveh with just with a tribute from Hezekiah. So his 458 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: father was really prominent and powerful king. Where he becomes 459 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: important Audre Melik is that he's involved in the assassination 460 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: of his father Sinakrib, which is recounted in Second Kings 461 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: nineteen and Isaiah thirty seven. So both Kings and both 462 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: Isaiah they give us his name. And ironically he wasn't 463 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: the only one involved in this assassination, but he is 464 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: the one that a lot of the blame gets pinned on, 465 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: and he's the one that's that's the best attested, so 466 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: that's why we're talking about him. But this is even 467 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 1: this is even recorded in Assyrian sources, this assassination of 468 00:31:53,960 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: his father Sinakrib. So we've got him attested as a 469 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: prince of Assyria, but vent that he's involved in it's 470 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: recorded in the Bible. This is recorded or attested corroborated 471 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: in Assyrian sources as well. And to top it all off, 472 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,479 Speaker 1: we might even have an image of this guy. So 473 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: there's Assyrian stone relief that came from the southwest palace 474 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: of Sinakre at the capital city of Nineve, and it 475 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: shows a crown prince, which, based on the time period 476 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: in his position, was probably Odromelk. So we've got a 477 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: couple of sources that not just name him but talk 478 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,479 Speaker 1: about his involvement in the assassination plot, and we may 479 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: even have his image. 480 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 2: That's pretty amazing for somebody that is important in the story. 481 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 2: But you're right, in terms of a minor figure compared 482 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 2: to Isaiah and compared to David, that we still have 483 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 2: some good historical evidence for him. His existence, I think 484 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 2: reveals a lot one more. 485 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,959 Speaker 1: And he wasn't a king himself. He was a prince, 486 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: and I mean he wanted to become king, and that's 487 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: that's probably part of the whole story why I ended 488 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: up assassinating his father. But yeah, he himself in world 489 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: history was not that important either. And yet we do 490 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: have attestation of his existence and a major event that 491 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: he was part of. 492 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: And that's significant because today we can we can record everything. 493 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: People are literate, we have the technology, so they were 494 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: very careful because of ability and expense to record significant figures. 495 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 2: So the fact that he was recorded and we still 496 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 2: have it today and shows up in the Bible, that's 497 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: a significant fine. I think it's very significant. I'm glad 498 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 2: you pulled this figure out. We've got one more from 499 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 2: the Old Testament, bel Shazar Belshazzar from a very different 500 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: time period. Tell us about him. 501 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: He was a Babylonian. In fact, he was the son 502 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: and the crown prince of the last king of Babylon. 503 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: But he's one of my favorite because the passage in 504 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: Daniel about him is so interesting. This is the handwriting 505 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: on the wall, and he's another one of these examples 506 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: where in the past scholars were saying he was a 507 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: made up character, he was fictional, and therefore the Book 508 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: of Daniel is not a historically reliable source. And the 509 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: reason they said that once again is that outside of 510 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: the Bible at that time we didn't have any evidence 511 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: for his existence and his role. So they said, look, 512 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: we know who the last king of Babylon is. It 513 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: was Nabonitis. We've got lists, we've got these classical authors 514 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: who are talking about it as well, and there's no 515 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: mention of any bell. You know, who is this guy, 516 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: so he must just be created. And then what happened 517 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: is that more things started to be discovered and translated, 518 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: and the most important of these was attesting to his 519 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: existence with his name and his position, and that was 520 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: on one of the cylinders of Nabonitis where it says 521 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: that Belshazzar was his firstborn son. So suddenly we've got 522 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: his name and he is the firstborn son of Nabonitis, 523 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: the last king of Babylon. This also tells us that 524 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: he is the crown prince. Well, if we go to 525 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: the Babylonian chronicles, we see that for many years the 526 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: crown prince of Babylon was the one who was actually 527 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: ruling in Babylon while his father, Nabnitis was off in 528 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: Arabia and other places, So that that puts Belshazzar in 529 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: the position of acting king. Then if we go to 530 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: what's called the verse account of Nabonitis, we read that 531 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: Nabonitis actually appointed his firstborn son, who is Belshazzar, as 532 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: king of Babylon. He gave him the kingship, it says. 533 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: So that's why Daniel talks about him as the king 534 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: of Babylon, because he was holding that position now his 535 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: father was still alive. And that's an important point for 536 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 1: another part of the passage in Daniel, because Daniel is 537 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: offered third place in the kingdom if he can decipher 538 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 1: the handwriting on the wall, and people might wonder, you know, 539 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 1: why isn't he offered second place in the kingdom. What's 540 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: going on with that? Well, it's because Nabonitis was still 541 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: alive even though he wasn't in Babylon, so he was 542 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: actually first in the kingdom. Belchazzar was second in the kingdom, 543 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: and so he couldn't give any higher position than the 544 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: third place in the kingdom. Since some of those earlier discoveries, 545 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: there have been more Babylonian documents that have been found 546 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: naming Belshazzar, and one that I think is pretty important 547 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: in the whole discussion of you know, was he really 548 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: king of Babylon? Did he really hold that authority at 549 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:29,479 Speaker 1: the time? Is a cuneiform tablet where someone swears an 550 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: oath to both Nabonitis and Belshazzar. So it seems like 551 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: they had equal status and power, or at least close 552 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: to it. There was a co regency with the father 553 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: being number one, but it wasn't that he was just 554 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: some prince who had a little bit of authority. Know, 555 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: the Babylonian documents really indicate that he did exercise the 556 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: power of kingship in Babylon during that time that the 557 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: Book of Daniel talks about. 558 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,840 Speaker 2: That's amazing. Discuss six figures in the Old Testament, you 559 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 2: discuss eighty one others, and there's a ton more. I 560 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 2: just want to remind you if we go back to 561 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 2: really Genesis twelve with Abraham, there's evidence for Abraham, evidence 562 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: for the patriarchs. There's evidence for Moses, there's evidence for Joshua, 563 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 2: there's evidence for Ezra, and Nehemiah. I mean, go through 564 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 2: the Old Testament. It's like a drum beat from obscure 565 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 2: to prominent figures. And the narrative I don't want people 566 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: to miss is there's consistently doubt about the existence of Belshazzar, 567 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 2: doubt about the existence of David. Of course, the Bible 568 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 2: has recorded this all along. And then a tablet shows up, 569 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 2: and then a palette shows up at our palace, and 570 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 2: then some kind of stamp shows up in the right time, 571 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 2: in the right place, seems to confirm what the Bible 572 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 2: has said all along. Now, of course, if we don't 573 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: have all the biblical figures, because so much of the 574 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 2: archaeological record has not even been excavated yet, but let's 575 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: put a pin in that, and let's shift to four 576 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 2: in the New Testament. Now we could talk about evidence 577 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 2: for the Apostles. Of course, evidence for Jesus. You and 578 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 2: I did a whole program just on the historical archaeological 579 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,240 Speaker 2: evidence for Jesus. But this first one, I'm really curious 580 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 2: where you'll take this, because he's a controversial figure. Is Quarineus. 581 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: Quarineus. The controversy around him stems more from the chronology 582 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: of the birth of Jesus and how he connects into 583 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,800 Speaker 1: that exactly. But as far as his existence and position, 584 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: I don't think we have any controversy as well. So 585 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: I know I get into some more of those details 586 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: in my book on Excavating the Evidence for Jesus, But 587 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 1: in this book I primarily am just talking about his 588 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: position and how that connects to the Bible and the 589 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: Gospel specifically. So he's named once Luke two two, and 590 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: he is said to be a ruler of of Syria, 591 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: and so from that Greek word we could infer that 592 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: he held a position such as legate. All right, Now 593 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: that there's a couple different types of legate. We can 594 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: have one that is a governor of a province, and 595 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: we can have one that is a military commander, commander 596 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 1: of legions. And at this point in time, I think 597 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,760 Speaker 1: that it's talking about Corineus as the commander of a legion, 598 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: and that is where we see some direct corroboration from archaeology. 599 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: There are a number of references to Corineus in Roman sources. 600 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,879 Speaker 1: I mean, we could look at historical manuscripts like those 601 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: of Josephus and Tacitus and Pliny the Elder and Suetonius. 602 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: All these they talk about Corineus, and we actually know 603 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: quite a bit about his life. But as far as 604 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,280 Speaker 1: archaeological inscriptions and for what we're looking at in connection 605 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: to the Gospels, we have a couple of very important artifacts. 606 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: One is the Lapis Venetus, which was discovered in Beirut, 607 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: which at the Roman period time was part of the 608 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: province of Syria. And that's important because in Luke Tu 609 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: two it says that Corinius was a ruler of Syria. 610 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: All right, So on this inscription, which is in Latin, 611 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: we have mention of Augustus. We have mentioned of a 612 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: census that was ordered and being carried out. We have 613 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: mentioned of the legate Corinius, and then we have mentioned 614 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: of one of his officers carrying out a census in 615 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:55,399 Speaker 1: a town or a city of Syria Apamea. So all 616 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,200 Speaker 1: of these things connect well to what we see going 617 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: on in Luke chapter two, and certainly they verify the 618 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: existence of Corinius, not just as a prominent Roman, but 619 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 1: in this position of legate. Now, if we go to 620 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: the writings of or probably the autobiography better to call 621 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: it of Augustus, and for Augustus rest guests day then 622 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: we see that he actually commanded or ordered a census 623 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: to the whole Roman Empire in eight BC. So that's 624 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,879 Speaker 1: actually what I would connect to the census of Luke. 625 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 1: But Corineus very solidly attested the right kind of position 626 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: the right time period. So even if we don't all 627 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,359 Speaker 1: agree on the exact year that those things are going 628 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:51,680 Speaker 1: on in their specific correlation to Luke, there's no question 629 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 1: that this guy was a real person and held those 630 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: positions or that prominent position in the Roman government. 631 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 2: It's amazing we have both theology and the extra biblical 632 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 2: writings that confirmed the time and the place of Corinius. 633 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 2: How about another figure people might recognize but not know 634 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,319 Speaker 2: exactly how he fits in is Aretus the fourth or 635 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 2: maybe it's a Ratus the fourth. 636 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:21,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, probably a lot of different pronunciations. Aritas the fourth 637 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: we could call him as well. And you know, I 638 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: like this one because he's one of those obscure figures 639 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: in the New Testament who is mentioned just once, although 640 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: geopolitically he was fairly powerful. He was king of Nabatia, 641 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,479 Speaker 1: and he's mentioned by Paul in tewod Corinthians eleven thirty 642 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: two when Paul is talking about his escape from Damascus, 643 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: and we read that Aritas the fourth or during his reign, 644 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: one of his officials was trying to pursue and capture 645 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: Paul and Damascus, but all gets away with the help 646 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: of other Christians. There Now, aritasa fourth very well attested 647 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: archaeologically in an ancient history. For example, we have coins 648 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: that he minted that have his name and his image 649 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,319 Speaker 1: on them. We have burial inscriptions of some of his 650 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: government officials that refer to him. We have other really 651 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,360 Speaker 1: interesting biblical connections, like his daughter was married to herod 652 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: Antipus before herod Antipus divorced her and married his brother 653 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: Philip's wife, Herodius, who was the mother of Salome. And 654 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 1: of course John the Baptist condemned all this, and John 655 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: the Baptist and that this whole debacle is written about 656 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: in Josephus as well. So all those people too that 657 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: I just mentioned, they are all part of this archaeological corroboration. 658 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 1: They are all attested by archaeological fines and ancient manuscripts. 659 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: But I think one one fact that people will find 660 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: really interesting is that if you go to Petra, where 661 00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,360 Speaker 1: probably you know a lot of people have been or 662 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,239 Speaker 1: they want to go and they will someday. Yeah, And 663 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: you walk through the canyon and you go and then 664 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: the first of those incredible carved buildings that you see, 665 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: that's called the Treasury, the most famous one. It's in 666 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 1: Indiana Jones. This was almost certainly the tomb of Ari 667 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:38,240 Speaker 1: Toss the Fourth. Wow, and yeah, it's it's pretty awesome. 668 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 1: When I first learned about that, I was like, Okay, 669 00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: very cool that everybody knows about this iconic location, but 670 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: not that many know that it's the tomb of this 671 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: person who is mentioned in a letter of Paul. The 672 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: reason that archaeologists attribute this to Aritas the Fourth is 673 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: because according to the findings, that tomb was constructed and 674 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: carved during his reign and those monuments so there are 675 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 1: other tombs like this all through Petra. These are all 676 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 1: tombs of the Nabathean kings. So even though his name 677 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: wasn't found on it, it's almost certainly his because it 678 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 1: was made during his reign, so he would have made 679 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 1: it for himself. 680 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 2: That's so fascinating. I never made this connection Titus, but 681 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,920 Speaker 2: Aritas is not mentioned in Acts nine, which of course 682 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 2: is after the conversion of Saul, he goes and preaches 683 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 2: in Damascus, and that's written by Luke right, even though 684 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 2: he's an eyewitness of Paul. And then in seven Crinti's 685 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:46,160 Speaker 2: chapter eleven he mentions in Damascus the city, the governor, 686 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 2: the position under King Aritos, he was lowered in a basket, 687 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:57,920 Speaker 2: which lines up with Acts chapter nine. Fascinating further details 688 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 2: given there. Then, in some ways you could call it 689 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 2: an undesigned coincidence that advances the narrative, especially with the tomb. 690 00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,960 Speaker 2: I had no idea that was in Petra. That was 691 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 2: one of my favorite places in the world. I went 692 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 2: to as a kid and have always wanted to go back. 693 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,439 Speaker 2: So that's that's fascinating, all right. We got two more 694 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 2: New Testament figures. This one should be more recognized, although 695 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 2: there's a number of different herods of course, starting with 696 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,880 Speaker 2: Herod the Great during the birth of Jesus, Herod Agrippa 697 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 2: the first. 698 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:32,800 Speaker 1: So Herod Agrippa the first he is I think fairly 699 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: well known to readers of the New Testament because he 700 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,760 Speaker 1: is the local ruler, local king that we see first 701 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,160 Speaker 1: start to take persecution of Christians to the next level. 702 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:51,440 Speaker 1: So if we go to Acts chapter twelve. I'll just 703 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,480 Speaker 1: read this right here says now about that time Herod 704 00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,799 Speaker 1: the King laid hands on some who belonged to the 705 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,080 Speaker 1: Church in order to miss treat them, and he had James, 706 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,320 Speaker 1: the brother of John, put to death with a sword. 707 00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: When he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded 708 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: to arrest Peter also. So he kills James the brother 709 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: of John, and he arrests Peter. And you know, Peter 710 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: may have been his next target for execution, but God 711 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:27,200 Speaker 1: saved it. So he was really opposed to the Christians 712 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:32,240 Speaker 1: and the Apostles. And as we read later in that passage, 713 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,840 Speaker 1: though we see, his death comes at a sort of 714 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,200 Speaker 1: unexpected circumstances, certainly for him and I think most of 715 00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:44,680 Speaker 1: the people in his kingdom. He's at cessarea Maritima, which 716 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,600 Speaker 1: we know that because Josephus actually tells us the story 717 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,760 Speaker 1: as well. Josephus gives us his account of the events 718 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,239 Speaker 1: of Acts twelve, and he goes out and he makes 719 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,719 Speaker 1: this speech, and he's got on this garment that's sparkling 720 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:03,640 Speaker 1: in the son and people are calling him a god, 721 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,480 Speaker 1: and he just laps it up and he loves it. 722 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 1: He doesn't reject that at all, and then he's struck 723 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,360 Speaker 1: by God and he ends up dying soon after because 724 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: of that. And so this is written about in Acts twelve, 725 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:26,200 Speaker 1: but it's also written about in Josephus, who recorded or 726 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: put together this history at the end of the first century, 727 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,799 Speaker 1: so very very very close almost the contemporary account there. 728 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,760 Speaker 1: So that's one really important source. But Harod a Grip 729 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,320 Speaker 1: of the first is also attested just by so many 730 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,839 Speaker 1: different archaeological finds. He minted coins, his own coins, he 731 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,080 Speaker 1: puts his name and his title on them. He's talked 732 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: about by other authors, historians of the first and second centuries. 733 00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 1: We have a lot of his building projects that he 734 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,440 Speaker 1: did as well, so you know, this is not not 735 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:08,600 Speaker 1: a person who we have questionable evidence for you. He's 736 00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,600 Speaker 1: very obvious. But what I find so incredibly interesting and 737 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 1: important is that josephus account corroborates the details of Acts twelve. 738 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,880 Speaker 2: Also there's another undesigned coincidence in there. I remember because 739 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,239 Speaker 2: James is one of two apostles that are mentioned in 740 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,440 Speaker 2: the Bible about their martyrdoms Acts twelve two, and of 741 00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,920 Speaker 2: course Peter at the end of the Gospel of John 742 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,520 Speaker 2: and people have said, well, Agrippa wouldn't want to please 743 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,000 Speaker 2: the people, which it's described that he wanted to please 744 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,839 Speaker 2: the people in the passage in Acts twelve, and yet 745 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:50,560 Speaker 2: Josephus at that time in the reign of Herod Agrippa, 746 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:55,280 Speaker 2: it matches that he was wanting to please the Jews 747 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 2: as a whole. It's kind of an additional support for 748 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,800 Speaker 2: it we get outside of the scriptures. But your point, 749 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,239 Speaker 2: just the little doubt that Herod Grippa was a real 750 00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,759 Speaker 2: historical person, I think is significant. And of course, in 751 00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,480 Speaker 2: the other book we talked about on the historical Jesus, 752 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,080 Speaker 2: you list each of the different herods and the historical 753 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,040 Speaker 2: evans for each one of them. But that's the story 754 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 2: for another time, all right. The last one, and again, 755 00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:25,160 Speaker 2: correct my pronunciation, is it Bernice or Barnice the second? 756 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's rendered both ways, so it can be 757 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:35,960 Speaker 1: pronounced either way. So this is Julia Berenice, also known 758 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,239 Speaker 1: as Bernice the Second in Acts twenty five and twenty six. 759 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:46,480 Speaker 1: She is named and even though she is not that 760 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:51,160 Speaker 1: important on the political stage, she was part of the 761 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:55,600 Speaker 1: Herodian dynasty, so the Herodian royal family. She was the 762 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,720 Speaker 1: daughter of Herod Agrippa, the first that we just talked about, Okay, 763 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:04,279 Speaker 1: so more family connections here. She was the great granddaughter 764 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,719 Speaker 1: of King Herod the Great, who of course we have 765 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,879 Speaker 1: massive archaeological attestation for her as well. One of her 766 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:16,640 Speaker 1: brothers was Herod Agrippa the second, who he's also named 767 00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:21,160 Speaker 1: in acts, and we've got plenty of archaeological attestation for him. 768 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:27,120 Speaker 1: So she course wasn't a king, didn't really hold any 769 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:31,520 Speaker 1: political office, but I think she was well known in 770 00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:37,080 Speaker 1: the upper echelon social circles because of her family and 771 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:43,160 Speaker 1: maybe some of her poor choices or possibly strange relationship 772 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:47,160 Speaker 1: going on with her brother. But she is named in 773 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:52,840 Speaker 1: Josephus and Tacitus and Suetonius and Cassius Dio. And then 774 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:58,480 Speaker 1: we have a couple really important archaeological inscriptions. The first 775 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 1: it was found in baber Okay, so again Syria Provence. 776 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:07,640 Speaker 1: This is connected to Judea in ancient times, in Roman times, 777 00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:13,719 Speaker 1: and there's an inscription there, a Roman inscription of bear 778 00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:19,480 Speaker 1: Nice and Agrippa, so it names her and it names 779 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,800 Speaker 1: her brother on it as well. So in Nice big 780 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,400 Speaker 1: bold Latin letters you can see her name Bear Nice. 781 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:34,239 Speaker 1: So that's her right there. But there's another one that 782 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:39,080 Speaker 1: I think is probably even cooler because we have a 783 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:47,120 Speaker 1: statue of Berenice, or what was originally a statue of her, 784 00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:52,560 Speaker 1: and there's an inscription on there in Greek that says 785 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:57,919 Speaker 1: Julia Berenice Great Queen. So it's it's unquestionably her. It's 786 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:02,520 Speaker 1: got both of her names, it's got her title, it's 787 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,920 Speaker 1: from the first century. In this case, it was found 788 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:10,120 Speaker 1: in Athens, so they had a lot of influence throughout 789 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,600 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire, and you know she traveled a lot 790 00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,240 Speaker 1: as well. Why exactly she got a statue in Athens, 791 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,319 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe there was a statue maker there 792 00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,480 Speaker 1: that really thought she was worthy of it. But we've 793 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,080 Speaker 1: got these these two inscriptions with her statue. We've got 794 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,399 Speaker 1: all these ancient manuscripts that mentioned her. So even though 795 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,520 Speaker 1: she's only talked about a little bit near the end 796 00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:37,800 Speaker 1: of Acts, very very well attested archaeologically in an ancient history. 797 00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:39,440 Speaker 1: I love that. 798 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:41,319 Speaker 2: By the way, I'm sitting here doing the math, going, Okay, 799 00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:43,840 Speaker 2: we just talked about ten biblical figures, and you know, 800 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:48,080 Speaker 2: roughly an hour your book has eighty, so we can 801 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:52,319 Speaker 2: multiply it by eight. If that's thirty percent, multiply that 802 00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,719 Speaker 2: by three. You and I could spend you know, I 803 00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:59,080 Speaker 2: don't know how many dozens of hours she's spending five 804 00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,240 Speaker 2: minutes on EA each historical person. So in many ways, 805 00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,440 Speaker 2: we just kind of laid the most basic foundation of 806 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,280 Speaker 2: these figures that are so well supported in the archaeological record. 807 00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:15,400 Speaker 2: Two last questions for you. One, as far as you're aware, 808 00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:21,840 Speaker 2: is artificial intelligence transforming archaeology and in what way would 809 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,960 Speaker 2: it relate to biblical figures and or just archaeology for 810 00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,320 Speaker 2: the New Testament or the Bible as a whole. 811 00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:35,440 Speaker 1: Okay, first thing, I'll mention I have one hundred and 812 00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,920 Speaker 1: thirty five people named in my book. A few of 813 00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,399 Speaker 1: them don't get their own entry, but there's a lot, 814 00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:47,239 Speaker 1: and there is continuing discovery that keeps going on. Right. 815 00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:51,680 Speaker 1: In fact, there's a new one that I identify more recently 816 00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:53,920 Speaker 1: that didn't make it into the book because I figured 817 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,640 Speaker 1: it out just after this. But okay, as far as 818 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,719 Speaker 1: far as artificial intelligence, that's an interesting question because I 819 00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:05,840 Speaker 1: will test different ais sometimes on on these types of 820 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,959 Speaker 1: issues and see, you know, what they what it knows 821 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:10,800 Speaker 1: and what it can find and what it can't find 822 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:18,440 Speaker 1: and it's it's good at combing through the Internet and 823 00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,440 Speaker 1: finding things and kind of compiling it and assessing it. 824 00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:28,480 Speaker 1: But if it's not accessible, freely accessible online, then it's 825 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,400 Speaker 1: not going to know about it. So if there's an 826 00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,960 Speaker 1: article publication that's behind a paywall or something, it's not 827 00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:39,200 Speaker 1: going to have that data. If it's just in print, 828 00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,000 Speaker 1: it's not going to have that data, right and some 829 00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:46,040 Speaker 1: unless somebody puts it online. However, it can be a 830 00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,919 Speaker 1: really powerful tool because there's just so much out there 831 00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,440 Speaker 1: now that we can't read every single thing right and 832 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,480 Speaker 1: so you know, what if what if there's some obscure 833 00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,080 Speaker 1: publication or writing and you know we miss that, you know, 834 00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,480 Speaker 1: AI might be able to direct you to that. As 835 00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:09,120 Speaker 1: far as doing archaeology, though I don't think AI at 836 00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,680 Speaker 1: this point is really changing anything and we still have 837 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:15,640 Speaker 1: to go out there and physically gig There are there 838 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:20,680 Speaker 1: are aspects of AI that we could apply to excavations. 839 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:26,800 Speaker 1: For example, software that allows us to film the excavation 840 00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,240 Speaker 1: site and then from that it builds out a three 841 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 1: D model with measurements of the excavation. Wow, so that's 842 00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:39,120 Speaker 1: something that can be really useful. But I don't think 843 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:43,640 Speaker 1: that overall archaeology is going to be too affected by AI. 844 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,080 Speaker 2: I imagine there could be tools just like doctors are 845 00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:51,280 Speaker 2: able to assess you know, MRIs, and they can look 846 00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,720 Speaker 2: for patterns. Of course, there's going to be less when 847 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,400 Speaker 2: it comes to archaeological finds, but look for patterns the 848 00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,040 Speaker 2: human eye might miss. 849 00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you know that that pattern recognition that came 850 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,880 Speaker 1: up in an article that it's archaeological related. It's a 851 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:11,480 Speaker 1: Dead Sea Scrolls topic, but it is a study in 852 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:17,440 Speaker 1: which the authors built an AI algorithm to look at 853 00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,640 Speaker 1: the radiocarbon dates of the Dead Sea scrolls versus the 854 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,800 Speaker 1: palaeographic dates of the Dead Sea scrolls, and then to 855 00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,680 Speaker 1: look and compare the paleography the form of the letters, 856 00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:34,320 Speaker 1: and their conclusion based on the output of the AI 857 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,200 Speaker 1: model was that a lot of the Dead Sea scrolls 858 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:45,080 Speaker 1: are older than the traditionally assigned palaeographic dates. So in 859 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,760 Speaker 1: things like that where you're talking pattern recognition, it's supposed 860 00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:52,360 Speaker 1: to take away human bias, although you know, you still 861 00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,040 Speaker 1: have to think about it's ultimately it was programmed or trained, 862 00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,000 Speaker 1: but it's supposed to be able to take away human 863 00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,440 Speaker 1: bias and maybe get more objective look at things. So 864 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,880 Speaker 1: in stuff like that, when we were talking about translations 865 00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,480 Speaker 1: and linguistics and pattern recognition, I think that's helpful. But again, 866 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:13,400 Speaker 1: the computer's not going to go out and dig for you, 867 00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:16,600 Speaker 1: so we've still got to do that type of work. 868 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,000 Speaker 2: Makes total sense. So last question, and you and I 869 00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:21,560 Speaker 2: were chatting before, and this is what I call the 870 00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:25,320 Speaker 2: Spider Man objection. Of course, I'm wearing my actually my 871 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,720 Speaker 2: Biola Spider Man shirt. Interestingly enough kind of fun, I'll 872 00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:30,960 Speaker 2: show it off here. One of my favorites of all 873 00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:36,080 Speaker 2: time is that people say, Okay, it's a completely fictional story, 874 00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:40,080 Speaker 2: but takes place in New York City, so there's some 875 00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,960 Speaker 2: real figures, there's some real places. So the existence of 876 00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:48,080 Speaker 2: these places does nothing to tell us that anything within 877 00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,280 Speaker 2: the Spider Man accounts is actually true. How do you 878 00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:53,960 Speaker 2: respond to that kind of objection in light of all 879 00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:56,560 Speaker 2: these Biblical figures that line up, Does this prove anything 880 00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:00,160 Speaker 2: about the Bible being reliable and or true? 881 01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:06,960 Speaker 1: It's an interesting argument if we are only displaying the 882 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:13,480 Speaker 1: evidence for the existence of cities and historical context. So 883 01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:20,120 Speaker 1: we could say, look, Jerusalem has been discovered, they found 884 01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:24,720 Speaker 1: this palace, they found these other buildings, they found, the 885 01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,480 Speaker 1: steps up to the Temple mount, stuff like that, and 886 01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,800 Speaker 1: then someone could say, all right, that's fine, Jerusalem existed 887 01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:37,600 Speaker 1: in those biblical times, those buildings were present. That doesn't 888 01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:42,120 Speaker 1: mean that David existed, that Jesus existed, that these events happened, 889 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:44,520 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. Right now, if we're 890 01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:50,360 Speaker 1: just looking at the sites themselves and the architecture, I 891 01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:55,720 Speaker 1: think that is a criticism that makes sense. But the 892 01:00:55,840 --> 01:01:03,439 Speaker 1: difference between a mythological story in a historical setting and 893 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,720 Speaker 1: an ancient document like the Bible is that we do 894 01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:12,520 Speaker 1: have archaeological corroboration for those specific people named and those events. 895 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:15,400 Speaker 1: So Spider Man, obviously we don't have evidence for his 896 01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:20,440 Speaker 1: real existence. Okay, Peter Parker, We could go look at 897 01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,000 Speaker 1: a historical example that is similar to that, and that 898 01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:28,280 Speaker 1: is the Iliad. So the Iliad, the historical setting of 899 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:31,440 Speaker 1: the iLiads about the twelfth century BC, although it was 900 01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:35,800 Speaker 1: written later by Homer. So Troy was a real place, 901 01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,960 Speaker 1: and the Kingdom of Mycenae was a real place, and 902 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,960 Speaker 1: there was actually some kind of war and the city 903 01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:46,959 Speaker 1: got destroyed. That's been verified archaeologically. But that doesn't mean 904 01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:52,200 Speaker 1: that Hector and Achilles and Priam and Helen and Paris 905 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,200 Speaker 1: and all these people. Doesn't mean they existed or that 906 01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,000 Speaker 1: you know, they fought a duel and all these things happened, right, 907 01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:01,880 Speaker 1: because we actually have zero archaeological evidence for the existence 908 01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:05,120 Speaker 1: of any of those characters. None of them are named 909 01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:09,720 Speaker 1: until long after Homer writes the epic, and then we see, 910 01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:14,080 Speaker 1: like on Greek vases, some of the scenes from the 911 01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,320 Speaker 1: Iliad shown with the names of the people. So they're 912 01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:21,600 Speaker 1: actually just depicting the story in Homer. They're not back there, 913 01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:25,360 Speaker 1: you know, five hundred, six hundred years earlier, with contemporary 914 01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:29,320 Speaker 1: archaeological evidence. So what you're talking about with the spider 915 01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:33,560 Speaker 1: Man fallacy, that can apply to the Iliad, but it 916 01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,760 Speaker 1: doesn't work with the Bible, because we do have archaeological 917 01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:42,240 Speaker 1: evidence for these people like David, like Hezekiah, like Adromelk, 918 01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,320 Speaker 1: like Belshazzar and so forth, and so it's not just 919 01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,360 Speaker 1: in a real place or a real historical context. They're 920 01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,960 Speaker 1: real verified people, and a lot of times the specific 921 01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:56,480 Speaker 1: events are even verified by outside sources as well. 922 01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:59,560 Speaker 2: That's great, And of course we know spider Man exists 923 01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,480 Speaker 2: in a genre known as a comic book and we 924 01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:06,680 Speaker 2: all know that. But we've got historical books here, like 925 01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:11,160 Speaker 2: King's books, like Joshua, books, like Genesis, we have Gospels, 926 01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:15,920 Speaker 2: letters of Paul, and these historical figures transcend many of 927 01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:19,520 Speaker 2: these different genres and of course multiple The new test 928 01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:23,000 Speaker 2: of examples she gave come from the writings of Luke, 929 01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,320 Speaker 2: and Luke starts by saying, in the fifteenth year of 930 01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,560 Speaker 2: the reign of Tiberi, Caesar Poncha's pilot being governor of Judea, 931 01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,720 Speaker 2: Herod being tetrarch of Galilee's brother Philip Tetrak, the reign 932 01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:36,240 Speaker 2: of Jay and Trachonitis, and Lysania's tetrarch of Abilene during 933 01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:40,280 Speaker 2: the high priest of Annas and Caiaphas. There's historical evidence, 934 01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:43,320 Speaker 2: if not for all of these, most of these people 935 01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:47,400 Speaker 2: places and times. And then lu says, for all of them, 936 01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:51,000 Speaker 2: the Word of God came to John, the son of Zacharry, 937 01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,080 Speaker 2: in the wilderness. So just like these governors are real, 938 01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,959 Speaker 2: these places are real, this time is real. The Word 939 01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:02,760 Speaker 2: of God coming to John is real. So it's framed 940 01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,000 Speaker 2: in a way that you should expect to find these 941 01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,480 Speaker 2: people in places, and so when we go there and 942 01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:11,800 Speaker 2: find it, it at least gives some corroboration and support 943 01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:16,000 Speaker 2: that the author got things right minimally should make us say, 944 01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:19,160 Speaker 2: all right, if they got every single thing listen here right, 945 01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,840 Speaker 2: did they get it right about John minimally? I think 946 01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:26,600 Speaker 2: we should ask that question. Titus, this is awesome. Always 947 01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,160 Speaker 2: enjoy interviewing. You enjoy each one of your book. It's 948 01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,400 Speaker 2: just encouraging and it's interesting. Maybe we'll have you back 949 01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:34,840 Speaker 2: to explore some of these biblical figures in depth. If 950 01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,440 Speaker 2: anybody's watching, like, wait a minute, I don't know about Abraham, 951 01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:41,280 Speaker 2: tell me about historical evidence for Hezekiah, tell me about 952 01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,520 Speaker 2: whatever figure. Let us know which one would be interesting, 953 01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:46,040 Speaker 2: and we'll take a look and see if we could 954 01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:49,120 Speaker 2: come back and have a discussion about that. Again, we're 955 01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:52,080 Speaker 2: here with doctor Titus Kennedy's book is called Archaeology and 956 01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:55,000 Speaker 2: the People of the Bible. Archaeology and the People of 957 01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:56,880 Speaker 2: the Bible. He lists one hundred and thirty five from 958 01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,680 Speaker 2: the Old Testament and from the New Testament, with very 959 01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:03,120 Speaker 2: quil wall of the pictures for each one. Now you 960 01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:04,600 Speaker 2: might be thinking why I could just search this on 961 01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,080 Speaker 2: the internet, But the key is he laid out his 962 01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:11,240 Speaker 2: criteria at the beginning where these are very carefully assessed 963 01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:14,640 Speaker 2: AI and online is not going to give that to you. 964 01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:17,880 Speaker 2: So it's a very quick, helpful reference guide for students, 965 01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:21,280 Speaker 2: for pastors and those who just want some reliable data 966 01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,160 Speaker 2: on these biblical figures. Make sure he hits subscribe because 967 01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:29,000 Speaker 2: we will be circling back to archaeology regularly. And by 968 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:30,400 Speaker 2: the way, those of you watch, if you hear of 969 01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:33,200 Speaker 2: breaking stories, send him my way and we'll bring an 970 01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,800 Speaker 2: archaeologist on to talk about it. We've done a couple recently, 971 01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:41,760 Speaker 2: Titus one on the archaeology taking place in colass being 972 01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:43,800 Speaker 2: head up by Clint Arnold or he's one of the 973 01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,240 Speaker 2: key people that's helping it out a scholar at Talbot. 974 01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:50,640 Speaker 2: The case for Jericho being a city five. We had 975 01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:54,040 Speaker 2: a conversation about that. So folks watching, if you hear 976 01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,920 Speaker 2: of new breaking stories, let me know and we'll keep 977 01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:59,720 Speaker 2: circling back to that and make sure you hit subscribe, 978 01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:02,040 Speaker 2: because as we actually have doctor Kennedy come and teach 979 01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:05,040 Speaker 2: class for us on our chaeology as often as we 980 01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:08,080 Speaker 2: can and our master's program, we'd love to have you. 981 01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:11,640 Speaker 2: It's online and in person. Information is blown. By the way, 982 01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:13,479 Speaker 2: if you're not right for masters. We have a full 983 01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:19,280 Speaker 2: certificate program now totally updated. Big discount in the description 984 01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:23,320 Speaker 2: on each of my YouTube videos. Doctor Kennedy. Really appreciate 985 01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:25,680 Speaker 2: your time. It's always fun. Thanks for coming back. 986 01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:27,360 Speaker 1: Thanks Sean. 987 01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:30,280 Speaker 2: Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that 988 01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,320 Speaker 2: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning 989 01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:35,720 Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet and it makes a huge 990 01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,520 Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and 991 01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:42,920 Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every 992 01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:46,240 Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, 993 01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:50,160 Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, 994 01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:53,600 Speaker 2: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic 995 01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:56,920 Speaker 2: spiritual information, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. 996 01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:59,920 Speaker 2: We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, 997 01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,919 Speaker 2: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see 998 01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:04,720 Speaker 2: you when the next episode drops. 999 01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:06,920 Speaker 1: H