1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life audio. 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 2: There's a root problem that's gone wrong in America. What 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 2: would you say? Is kind of the heart of the 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 2: American crisis. 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: Joe Biden used to talk of restoring the soul of America. 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: Never say what it was, what's the soul? President Trump 7 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: talks about make America great again, but he never mentions 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: what made America great in the first place. In other words, 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: it's become a campaign speech slogan, and I just don't 10 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: think is true. Very few presidents give you the real 11 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: state of the Union. 12 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: The state of the American Union is in a more 13 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 2: serious condition than most Americans recognize, and it requires urgent 14 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: life saving attention. Our guest today spoke these words in 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: his latest book, America AGONISTUS. Social critic As Ginness is 16 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: back to assess the state of the American Union at 17 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: its two hundred and fiftieth anniversary and consider whether America 18 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 2: is doomed and why everyone in a particular Christians should care. 19 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 2: Doctor guinnis, thanks for coming back on the show. 20 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: Always a pleasure, Sean, thank you well. 21 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: I want to get your reactions to these stark words 22 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: that earn your book again about the American Union being 23 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: in a more serious condition than most Americans realize, and 24 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: that it requires urgent life saving attention. What do you 25 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: mean by that. 26 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: Well, I said that in the context of the repeated statement, 27 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: in every state of the Union, the state of the 28 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: Union is strong. You know, whether a president is a 29 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: Democrat like Joe Biden or Apublican like Donald Trump, they 30 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: always say that, and I just don't think it's true. 31 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: In other words, it's become a campaign speech slogan. But 32 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: very few presidents try and give you the real state 33 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: of the Union. And while that's a congressional requirement for 34 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: a president, I think it should be a concern for 35 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: every America citizen. So as you approach your two fiftieth anniversary, 36 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: it's a great moment of celebration. Two fifty years for 37 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: a free society, it's no mean achievement. It isn't very 38 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: long if you look at authoritarian societies like say the 39 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: Egyptian Empire or the Chinese Empire. But free societies are 40 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: rare and lasting. Free societies are rareer still, So it 41 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: is a moment to celebrate, no question. But I would 42 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: just point out some of the very obvious crises. I'm 43 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: an admirer of this country, I'm not American, but certain 44 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: things are very obvious. First, the most serious is the 45 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: polarization between those and we said this, I think before 46 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: in your program. Those who understand America from the perspective 47 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: of the American Revolution largely but not completely biblical, and 48 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: those who understand America from the perspective of ideas comeing 49 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: down from the French Revolution, because things like postmodernism or 50 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 1: critical race and so on, they're all the heirs of 51 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: the French Revolution, not the American Revolution. And I would 52 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: argue there is much a secession from the American Republic 53 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: as the South was in splitting from the North in 54 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: the Civil War, and that has to be resolved. But 55 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: no one's there's a pushback. Trump represents a huge pushback, 56 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,679 Speaker 1: but no determined effort to come back and win them 57 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: back in terms of persuasion and principles, things that you're 58 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: so concerned with. Right Ly, Sean, you have just about 59 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: the christ. 60 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: Sorry about that. You hit on so many of the 61 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: key points that we want to discuss. But I wonder 62 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: if you can explain why it is that like authoritarian 63 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: regime seem to last so much longer than liberty based regimes. 64 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: And one thing you say in the book is when 65 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: Moses says, let my people go. The Egyptian Empire had 66 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: already existed for about a millennium at that point. So 67 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 2: why do secular or authoritarian or regimes for back of 68 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: lack of a better word, tend to last longer than 69 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: those rooted in liberty. 70 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: Because they depend only on power and oppression, whereas freedom 71 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 1: is much more challenging. You take the notion of self 72 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: governance or freedom itself, it requires a whole lot of things. 73 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: So the Biblical view of freedom is an ordered freedom 74 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: that's between the extremes of anakin one side, all freedom, 75 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 1: no order, and authoritarianism on the other side, or order 76 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: no freedom. And as you know, freedom and self independent, 77 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: self government. It is a challenging thing for us because 78 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: freedom always tends to go towards license and do what 79 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: you like and so on. And freedom is not doing 80 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: what you like, it's doing what you ought to do 81 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: if you want freedom to last. And that's much tougher morally, 82 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: among other things. 83 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 2: That definitely, and that distinction of freedom. We're going to 84 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: come back to some of that. This you right, is 85 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: the second in a four part book series that you're 86 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 2: working on. We had an interview on your previous book 87 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: where you talk about kind of our civilizational moment. Will 88 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 2: you remind us what you mean by civilizational moment and 89 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: then tell us what makes this book unique. 90 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: Well, people use the word civilizational moment like a fancy 91 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: term for today or the present moment. No, no, okay, 92 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: civilizational moment is a moment in the course of a 93 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: civilizations rise, flourishing, fall and decline. When the civilization loses 94 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: touch with this inspiration is dynamism. And when that happens, 95 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,799 Speaker 1: and it happens with every civilization, there are only three 96 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: broad options renew the inspiration, replace it adequately, or decline 97 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: and fall. Obviously, the inspiration for West is the Christian faith, 98 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: or you might say the Christian faith rooted in Judaism, 99 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: the faith of the Bible. The Bible made the West. 100 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: So we owe a lot to the Greeks and the Romans, 101 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: but the Christian faith is essentially the roots of the West, 102 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: the intended replacement. And as you know this is the 103 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: eighteenth century was the Enlightenment, reason, not revelation, progress, not 104 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: heaven and that sort of thing. But clearly after the 105 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: twentieth century, all the Enlightenment hopes have failed, so in 106 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 1: our face to the thing, there is either a renewal 107 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: of the Christian faith or the decline and fall of 108 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: the West. That's the challenge of the civilizational moment we're facing. Now. 109 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: You've shared this before on my program, but I'd love 110 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 2: for kind of my viewers and listeners to just kind 111 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: of get a recap of your life experience that you 112 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 2: bring to the table that makes you so concerned about 113 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: the authoritarian moves that were seen take place in culture. 114 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: If you'd be willing to share that, I think it 115 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: would give people a real insight and a sense of 116 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 2: where you're coming from. 117 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: Well, any of you know across the country, if you 118 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: have friends who grew up, say in Poland or the 119 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: Czech Republic or Hungary, you knows who knew what it 120 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: is like to live under the Soviets. They're much more realistic, 121 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: and many Americans in naive. You've been peaceful for so 122 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: long and you haven't had any invader in this country 123 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: since eighteen twelve when the Brits burnt the White House, 124 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: so Americans don't have a realistic understanding of the horror 125 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: of authoritarianism. I grew up my first ten years in China. 126 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: I was there during the climax of the Chinese Revolution 127 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: and saw the beginning of the reign of terror, and 128 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: it was genuinely terrifying, rather like the reign of terror 129 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: in the French Revolution. Now go back to your world, Sean, 130 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: and my world too. Of apologetics. Since Friedrich Nietzsche Nietzsche 131 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: in his last, very last words, the posthumous words in 132 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: his posthumous book, The Will to Power, do you want 133 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: a name for my world? This world is the will 134 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: to power and nothing besides. That's postmodernism, that's the survival 135 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: of the fittest, that's Hi Jinping, that's Putin, but that's 136 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: also many Americans. So people who don't try and use 137 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: principle or persuasion take DOGE, you know, the Department of 138 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: Government Efficiency. What was the symbol of doge? A chainsaw 139 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: Doge would have been incredible. If they'd used a American 140 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: principles with persuasion to show how we need to cut 141 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: out many of the fat government offices that are grown 142 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: up would have been very important. But just using power, 143 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: the backlash has been incredible and it failed and again 144 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: and again. Even the conservatives today are using a Nietzschean 145 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: style power rather than persuasion and principle, And it just 146 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: shows how far we've drifted from the American Republic. 147 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: You have a critique for the left and a critique 148 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: for the right, which we're going to get to, which 149 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: is really important that you discuss in this book. But 150 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,199 Speaker 2: part of what you're saying is there's a root problem 151 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: that's gone wrong in America and a lot of our 152 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: solutions are kind of on the surface addressing them, like 153 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: your example with Doje. What would you say is kind 154 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: of the heart of the American crisis? 155 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: Well, I think the polarization that I mentioned, because the 156 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: effect of it is you've drifted the American Republic. We've 157 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: got to discuss where it came from. The American Republic 158 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: is a freedom like no other. That's why I admire it. 159 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: But you take maga, you know, or go back. Joe 160 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,479 Speaker 1: Biden used to talk of restoring the soul of America. 161 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: Never say what it was, what's the soul? President Trump 162 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: talks about make America great again, but he never mentions 163 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: what made America great in the first place. It wasn't 164 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: the military, it wasn't the economy. America's a nation by 165 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: intention and by ideas, and those ideas freedom supremely are 166 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: incredibly important. Who defends them? It had an interesting experience 167 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: with a visitor, a group of young people about a 168 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: couple of months ago, and they were ardent Christians and 169 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: most of the modern supporters of the president. I said 170 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 1: to them, all right, what made America great? You support 171 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: the president? Well? Jewish Christian foundations? They said, terrific? And 172 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: what were they? And no one of them can say 173 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: a nothing. I heard an eminent Catholic leader questioned about 174 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: what did the Bible contribute? He couldn't get beyond saying 175 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: human dignity and worth made in the image of God. 176 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: I thought, what now? Many of the things that did 177 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: come into the revolution came through the Reformation from the scriptures. 178 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: So our Catholic friends often have a slightly inadequate view. 179 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: But as Christians and through our pastors, we need people 180 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: who will tell us what are the biblical foundations for 181 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: the great truths that made America what it is? 182 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 2: Well, then let's talk about that. If you were sitting 183 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 2: there and these people said, these young people said, we 184 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 2: think America there are certain things that made America great, 185 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: how would you respond? To that question and maybe tie 186 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: it in with the phrase that's often used American exceptionalism, 187 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: talk about if you believe American exceptionalism and some of 188 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 2: the biblical deeper roots of America that you think are 189 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: so important. 190 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: Well, let me be clear, I don't believe in American exceptionalism. 191 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,479 Speaker 1: You know. One historian put it like this, the really 192 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 1: exceptional nation among all the seventy five or so superpowers 193 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: in history would be a nation that didn't consider itself 194 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 1: exceptional in its time. In other words, everyone does now. 195 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: Of course, every nation is distinctive, Every superpower is distinctive. 196 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: You know, take Britain. Britain would have been nothing without 197 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: the navy, and as an island with a fleet, the 198 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 1: navy and seapower was critical to British supremacy when they 199 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: controlled roughly af court of the world, far bigger than 200 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: the Roman Empire. Every great nation sees itself as exceptional, 201 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: and it's true that they're distinctive and unique in some way. 202 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,119 Speaker 1: But when Americans used the term, they mean almost immune 203 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: to the run and rules of history. No, no one's immune. 204 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: So America's not exceptional in any way that's going to 205 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: be lasting or keep it afloat unless it lives the 206 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: way that freedom requires. Because America's built on freedom, not 207 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: power or something else. So you ask, all, right, where 208 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: did it come from? Well, in a Tockville Alexei de Tockville, 209 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: a great French visitor, he said America had a double founding. Obviously, 210 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: the formal official founders Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, and so on. 211 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: That's the obvious one. But the other founding the Puritans. 212 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: The Puritans. What did they bring? Well, the Puritans were 213 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: part of the Reformation. And we've got to see here 214 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: if you go back to the early Church when Rome 215 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: declared Rome Christian officially, not Constantine, but Theodosius in three 216 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: eighty eight AD. The Church wittingly or otherwise. I'll let 217 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: historians describe and copy Romans structures politically, and what were they? Will? 218 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: Rome had Caesar, consuls, senators and Loenbahol. What did the 219 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: church have popes, cardinals, bishops. Now, Rome was hierarchical based 220 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: on the power of ranking, and so was the Church. 221 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: And it was a famous staying by Catholic layman Lord 222 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: acton all power tends to corrupt and absolute power he 223 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: was criticizing in that letter his own church. He disagreed 224 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: with people infallibility, for example, but that's what created and 225 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: as historians say, all power corrupts, and all power corrupts 226 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: the powerful as well as the press in the week. 227 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: So the Reformation said, is that biblical? No, what is biblical? 228 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: They went back to what the seventeenth century after the 229 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: sixteenth called the Hebrew Republic now as the founding of 230 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: God's nation in Exodus and the renewal of God's nation 231 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:27,479 Speaker 1: under Moses Deuteronomy. The whole of Deuteronomy is the renewal 232 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: of a covenant. And as you probably know Sean in 233 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: the eighteenth century, if you look at all the books 234 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: that were cited, the most quoted was not John Locke, 235 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: Thomas HOVs Cicero that it was Deuteronomy. Because it was 236 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: the ideas in Exodus and Deuteronomy that were behind the 237 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: English Revolution, which failed. Is caused the lost cause, and 238 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: the English Republic lasted ten years. That's not very long. 239 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: But what was the losing cause in England became the 240 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: winning in New England. The Mayflower Compact is a covenant. 241 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: John Winthrop's speech on the Arbella was a covenant. Even 242 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: Jefferson and Franklin, who weren't the most ardent of evangelicals. 243 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: To put him hiley. You know, when they were asked 244 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: to produce a seal for the new United States, they 245 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: both chose a seal from the Exodus and the Red Sea. 246 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: And you could go on down the line. John Adams said, 247 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: the Hebrews have done more to civilized humanity than any 248 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: other people on earth. They knew the debt not to Rome, 249 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: not to Greece. Yes, they read the Greek and Roman stuff. 250 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: They knew the debt to the Bible. And the tragedy 251 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: is you don't hear pastors. I'm not calling for people 252 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: to politicize their sermons. We don't want political sermons. We 253 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: want biblical sermons, including the great truths of the Hebrew scriptures. 254 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: The give us human dignity, truth, freedom, just as peace, 255 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 1: all the great principles that made this country in the 256 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 1: beginning and need to remake it today. 257 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 2: Connect a couple things from us, if you will. That 258 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 2: you are very clear that you don't believe in American exceptionalism. 259 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 2: But you're a foreigner and you're deeply concerned about the 260 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: state of the American Union, and you don't want it 261 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: to fail, So why do you not want it to 262 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 2: fail and have concern for it? But don't believe in 263 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 2: American exceptionalism. 264 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: Well, I believe in the distinctiveness of the American Republic. 265 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: Don't misunderstand me, but that exceptional. We're exceptional because of that. 266 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,479 Speaker 1: We don't follow the run and rules of history and 267 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: will last. No, no, you won't. America will decline unless 268 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: there's a renewal in biblical terms too. So I don't 269 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: believe in exceptionalism. But I'm a great admirer of the 270 00:17:54,960 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: American Republic because it is the closest modern system that 271 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: is close to the scriptures themselves, and of covenantal systems, 272 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: they're really only three in history. They're relatively rare, the Jews, 273 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: the Swiss, and the Americans. And of course the American 274 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: is the world's superpower. Is more important now. I admire 275 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 1: it because it's the best counter to the danger of 276 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: power and the authoritarianism and totalitarianism that's sweeping the world. 277 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: So if America fails, clearly the European nations are not 278 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: so clear, and they're well down the path have declined 279 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: to put a mild Even my own nation, Britain tragically 280 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: in the last ten years, just degenerating before our eyes 281 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: and denying many of the things like freedom of speech 282 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: and religious freedom, which the English were in the forefront 283 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: of pioneering. So Europe is in a sad state of disarray. 284 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: But if America goes too, then there's no real counter 285 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: to Shi Jingping and his boys. 286 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: Okay, so you might have answered the question that I 287 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 2: always really wanted to ask you. You're an evangelist and 288 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 2: you're an apologist, and yet you're writing multiple books about 289 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: the state of America. Why so concerned about this republic 290 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: moving forward? In some ways, you may have just answered 291 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 2: that because the domino effects for freedom throughout the world 292 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: and in Europe. But are there any other reasons why 293 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 2: it's so important that, at this stage in your life 294 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 2: and your career, you're writing and you're focusing on this. 295 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: Well, Sean, you're an apologist. I'm an apologist and I 296 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: love it, and your dad's a great one too, and 297 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: many others who are our friends. What I'm doing is 298 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: exactly the same. But I'm defending human dignity. But I 299 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: view it all as apologetics, except it's not personal. I 300 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: love that too. In other words, arguing for the faith 301 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: to bring people to know the Lord. I love that 302 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: this is arguing for the faith in terms of public life. 303 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: Can we create and build and establish and sustain a 304 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: society that's based on the high principles that are there 305 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: at the heart of faith in a Freedom is God's 306 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: gift to humanity. Now, does that mean just you and 307 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: I have freedom personally spiritually, so we're saved, that's it. No, 308 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: it should mean that we have a way of living 309 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: and a way of living together as the Bible shows us, 310 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: where we can be free in a wider way and 311 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: bring in justice and so on. 312 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 2: What's so unique about two hundred and fifty years? Is 313 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: there some historians argue that great nations often survive about 314 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty years. I've heard this argument. Is 315 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: there something pressing you motivating? Do you buy that argument 316 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: that a lot of nations will last, say, two hundred 317 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 2: and fifty years and then decline or do you view 318 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 2: it differently? 319 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: I do view it differently. Those are the cyclical historians 320 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: who view you know, rise, flourishing, decline, and fall always 321 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: in certain cycles. Now, some fastened on two fifty the 322 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: average years in which superpowers have lasted in power. Others 323 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: take it a little more slowly. Chinese cyclical historians, the 324 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: Muslims are a little shortened, the Chinese, and it's people 325 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 1: like John glob in the last century who fastened on 326 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: to I don't believe in any of that. I don't 327 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: think Biblical history is cyclical. And I love the fact 328 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: that while the secular pairing is decline and fall, and obviously, 329 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: since you know the eighteenth century, the decline and fall 330 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: of the Roman Empire where they were given, that's become 331 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: the way most western and see it decline and fall, 332 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: that isn't the biblical pairing. I love the fact that 333 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: the Biblical pairing is exile and return, or possible return, 334 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: in other words, exile. If people don't follow the will 335 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: of the Lord, the way of the Lord, there are 336 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: social consequences. Adam and Eve or east of Eden, Cain 337 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: a wanderer in the earth, Israel captive under Babylon, and 338 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: so on. So the Church in deep decline and corruption 339 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: at times. If we leave the way of the Lord, 340 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: as America has done. Now we're not living the way 341 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: of the Lord here, we've abandoned things like say truth 342 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: and so on. America will decline two and two equals four. 343 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: America will decline and fall if she leaves the way 344 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: of the Lord. But the Biblical view of exile is 345 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: followed by return or the potential return. Interestingly, most American 346 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: chriss immediately quote to Chronicles seven People. But as you 347 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: know well, Sean Solomon didn't follow what he said. He 348 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: flouted what he was told to be as a king, 349 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: had too many wives, too many horses, too many self, 350 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, inflating monuments. He became a second pharaoh with 351 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: conscription and slavery, and the revolt against him and his 352 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: son's time divided the kingdom forever. Solomon is not the 353 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: example that we should follow. We should follow Moses and 354 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: the other prophets. Moses Deuteronomy thirty. If you return to me, 355 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,239 Speaker 1: says the Lord, and he's predicting exile even before they 356 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: got to the promised land. Moses predicts they'll be in 357 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: exile because they leave the Lord. But he said, if 358 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: you return to me, I will return to you and 359 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: restore your fortunes. And you see that a minute. The 360 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: others right through to Malachi. Now that's the story of 361 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 1: the church. The church often declines the American Church is declining, 362 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: there's an immense amount of well, look at the mainline churches. 363 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 1: They've lost the faith altogether. They are being acculturated into oblivion. 364 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: And much of evangelicals is so profoundly worldly it needs 365 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: renewal again. But you remember that one off. I've got 366 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: the quote from that wonderful quote from gkh Asterdom six 367 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: times and he was looking over the course of history. 368 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: Six times the church has gone to the dogs. But 369 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,160 Speaker 1: in each case it was the dog that died. Why 370 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 1: because a revival, renewal, reawakening, and that is our hope 371 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: exiled and return if we return to the Lord. So 372 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: my hope and prayer is that Christians in America next 373 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 1: year will examine their hearts, see where we've drifted spiritual 374 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: as well as politically, and seek to rededicate ourselves and 375 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: renew ourselves before the Lord. Not as we need an 376 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: ezra near Maya moment and they saved Judaism. 377 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 2: Okay, So I want to come back in a minute 378 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: to where you think we've aired politically. You said left 379 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: or right, But right now I imagine some people listening are saying, 380 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 2: doctor ask Ginnis, this sounds a lot like Christian nationalism. 381 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 2: You're saying we need an ezra. You've also talked about 382 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 2: our roots in Deuteronomy, where there's kind of exile and return, 383 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 2: that we need a renewal of our biblical faith. Is 384 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 2: this similar to Christian nationalism? And if not, how is it. 385 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: Distinct emphatically not? Now, that notion of Christian nationalism was 386 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: actually an elite notion among the educated who are mostly 387 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: globalists and therefore against nation states anyway in the name 388 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: of internationalism. But we got to think it through. I 389 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,159 Speaker 1: follow the Bible, of course. But George Orwell, who is 390 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: an atheist, put it very simply. Patriotism is good, nationalism 391 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: is bad. What's the difference? Every human Again, we're back 392 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: to apologetic Sean needs meaning, belonging and purpose. Now, Patriotism 393 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: answers belonging. We belong to families, we belong to communities, 394 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: we belong to nations. You guys are Americans, I'm British 395 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: and Irish. We all belong and we need to belong. 396 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: Patriotism is being grateful and proud of the place you 397 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: belong to. Nationalism is idolatrous because it says the place 398 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: I belong to right or wrong. So the nation becomes God. Now, 399 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: that was incredibly dangerous in the nineteenth century with the 400 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: rise of nationalists, things like national socialism, and it became 401 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: a curse. And so it's understandable people reacted and became 402 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: globalists internationalists rather than nationalists. But actually globalism is the 403 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: new idol. So we are neither nationalists. We're not national 404 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: We are patriots, but not nationalists. And the gospel is global, 405 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: but it's also it speaks to the nation. So we've 406 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: got to be clear about that. I am not in 407 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: favor of Christian nationalism, but we've got to remember that 408 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: that insult is often unfair. It wipes out patriotism too, 409 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: and patriotism is very important. 410 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: That's great distinction between Christian nationalism and a Christian's love 411 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 2: for home, which is a kind of patriotism. I think 412 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: the way you described that in the book, and you 413 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 2: also say, you know, there's a certain kind of gratitude 414 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: that comes from a healthy kind of patriotism, a thankfulness 415 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 2: of where we come from. I think that's balanced as well. 416 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: You spoke about England earlier and correct me if I'm wrong, 417 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 2: as if it's either almost gone or gone. And America 418 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 2: is kind of following behind it in some sense. So 419 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: how do we know when a nation you think has 420 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: gone too far and renewal is not possible anymore. 421 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: We don't. We're humans. Only the Lord knows that, and 422 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: that's how we've got to turn to him. I don't know. 423 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: But at a certain point, people in a declining nation 424 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: don't turn back to the Lord. And at some point, 425 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: and I don't know it, I'm a human, there's a 426 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,239 Speaker 1: point of no return when we reach that. I don't know. 427 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: You know, if the Lord tells someone that directly, it's 428 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,719 Speaker 1: not their speculative guess I'll listen to them. But I 429 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: don't know. But the point is, everything in me suggests 430 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: that this is a providential moment coming up next year. 431 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: So two fiftieth on the two hundredth, if you well, 432 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: you remember the back then, you weren't the eminent apologist 433 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: back then that you are now. Your dad was. 434 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 2: So I was born in seventeen seventy six, by the way, 435 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 2: the Bison ten. 436 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: So that's one of you were the gift of that year. 437 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: But you know, there was a famous book the year 438 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: you were born by Robert Beller called The Broken Covenant, 439 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: and the analytes the covenant that came in with the 440 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:39,239 Speaker 1: Puritans had gone in all sorts of ways. It had 441 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: been secondarized out of recognition. So the last presidents who talked, 442 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: Lyndon Johnson talked about our covenant with the land. That's rubbish. 443 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: We have a responsibility for the land with a covenant 444 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: with each other under the Lord. Bill Clinton talked about 445 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: the new Covenant, then he fell fout of moral things. 446 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: He never gave any explanation of what the new covenant was. 447 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: It's gone. Here's my point, though, Bella said the covenant 448 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: is broken. Not a single American leader or pasta that 449 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: I know of, has tried to restore and repair the 450 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: government since then. So fifty years later, the covenant has 451 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: not only broken, it's been entirely forgotten. And that's dangerous. 452 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: That's behind the crisis of the constitution that progresses want 453 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: to get rid of the whole thing altogether. 454 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 2: You have a criticism for both the left and for 455 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 2: the right politically, and you don't spare any punches and 456 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 2: name different presidents. So I'd love to hear your critique. 457 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: Let's start with the left and then we'll move to 458 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 2: the right. What is your concern and the critique for 459 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 2: the left today in America. 460 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: Well, the problem the left is obvious. It is the 461 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: radical critique of cultural Marxism, the so called Long March 462 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: of the institutions starting in the late sixties, and of 463 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: course that has joined forces. What we saw after October 464 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: the seventh was radical Marxism, the Long March, the radical 465 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: left joining forces with radical Islamism, which goes back to 466 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in nineteen forty one, the 467 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: year of my birth, joining forces with Hitler. Now radical Marxism, 468 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: radical ismism, the so called Red Green Alliance has flourished 469 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: on American campuses and now increasingly in some of the cities. 470 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: You take, say the new mayor of New York. That 471 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: is the end of the American experiment if it goes further. 472 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: So Trump, thank god, represents pushback. But pushback is not 473 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: return and transformation. That's a much deeper challenge. So I 474 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,959 Speaker 1: say thank God for the pushback getting rid of workism. 475 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: But people who say that workism is dead have surely wrong. 476 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: It is well alive and well certainly in the universities 477 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: and in many of the huge foundations with their philanthropic 478 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: large as people like George Soros, the left is far 479 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: from dead, and unless the right, or conservatism more importantly 480 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,719 Speaker 1: does it, well, there'll be another pushback from the other direction. 481 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: So to me, it's sad that President Trump has revenged lawfare. Understandably, 482 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: he was treated abominably the Russian collusion, hopes et cetera, 483 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: et cetera, and all the impeachments they were abominable. But 484 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: if he just responds in kind, what happens when he 485 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: goes ex I will do the opposite. You'll have ricocheting 486 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: backwards and forwards, the same problem. You need a Lincoln 487 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: style leader who will say to America, we can't be 488 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: hous slave, how free. We've got to resolve this one. Well, 489 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: you put in biblical terms, we are rather like the Galatians. 490 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: Your Paul says, who's bewitched you? You came to faith 491 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: through one gospel? And now you're following a different gospel 492 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: works not grace. And I'm saying to America, and not 493 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: only me but others too, who's bewitched you? You came 494 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: to freedom through one revolution, the Biblical one, and now 495 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: you're following another revolution, the French one, which will lead 496 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: in the completely different direction you've got to choose. 497 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 2: You're right, that is somewhat of a clear critique coming 498 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 2: from the west, the way you described it, I'm sorry, 499 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: from the left, But what about the right? What's your 500 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 2: critique of the right? I don't recall you talking about 501 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 2: this as much in your earlier books as you do now. 502 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 2: Is that because it's become a little bit more pressing 503 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 2: that what it was in the past. So I guess 504 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 2: two questions. What's your critique of the right? And you 505 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 2: feel like it's a growing critique we should be more 506 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 2: and more concerned about. 507 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 1: Now, I've got to be careful here. I admire this country. 508 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: I have pro passionate American friends, so I'm not attacking America. 509 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: Just take first, something rather obvious, the way the right, 510 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: the mega movement is splintering, and you have people like 511 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: in the extremes, like the more moderates like Tucker Carlson, 512 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: and then the real extremes like Nick Fuents and people 513 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: are antisemitic and arguing on behalf of Hitler rather than 514 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,439 Speaker 1: Churchill and stuff like this. This is abominable coming from 515 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: the right. Now, let's look, and I'll say it very carefully, 516 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: with our president. Thank god, that he's pushed back against 517 00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: the left. I truly mean that, thank God. But you 518 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: notice how often he relies on power plays and his 519 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: politics is all personalist, it's about him. Those are two 520 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: very very dangerous things that are very different. You know 521 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,760 Speaker 1: that the opening statement of Rick Warren's book on calling 522 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 1: is not about you, Hm. That needs to be said 523 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: to every American politician. It's not about you as leaders. 524 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: You should be servants of the republic of the people 525 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: you're leading, and sadly, on the conservative right, that's not happening. 526 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: And there's going to be a pushback. There will be 527 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: a pushback. There already is a pushback No King's Movement 528 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: and many many others. There's going to be a pushback 529 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 1: because this is not the American Republic that the conservative 530 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: movement's fighting for now. Speaker Johnson, he understands that well. 531 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: One of his slogans is restore the Republic. But his 532 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: voice is very very rare. Most people are just maga 533 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: without saying what made America great in the first place, 534 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:14,439 Speaker 1: And that's the tragic It won't succeed without putting back 535 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: in what made America great in the first place. 536 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 2: So remind us again before we move on. If you 537 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 2: were to sum it up, what did make America great 538 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: in the first place, Well. 539 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: Let me put it in terms of Saint Augustine, and 540 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: he would argue and put it in modern terms. You 541 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: don't judge the state of a nation by the size 542 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: of its population, or the throw weight of its missiles, 543 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: or the strength of its aircraft carriers or whatever. You 544 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,839 Speaker 1: ask what it loves supremely, Saint Augustine, and see how 545 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: that's doing. What does America love supremely? There's no question 546 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: that the world would say freedom. But America is screwing 547 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,879 Speaker 1: up what it takes to be a free society. I mean, 548 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: you take a simple example, which is a matter of 549 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: neglect rather than malice. For the Framers and for the Bible, 550 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: freedom requires the rule of law, but that's the public expression. 551 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: It requires the role of character and virtue in private. 552 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: All the Framers said that, I call it the Golden 553 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: triangle of freedom. Freedom requires virtue, Virtue requires faith. Faith 554 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: requires freedom goes round. That's gone. All the Framers say 555 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: that Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, whether they were Evangelicals like Patrick Henry, 556 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: or Orthodox believers like George Mason, or Deist like Thomas Jefferson. 557 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: They all believe that who believes that today's gone? You know, 558 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: as modern Americans, not just the libertarians. Modern Americans have 559 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: an unrealistic view of freedom. They've lost the Biblical and 560 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: the framers, and freedom won't lost the way it's being 561 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: practiced today. It's as simple as that two and two 562 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: will never make five. 563 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 2: One of the interesting sections that jumped out to me 564 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 2: as an apologist as you talk about kind of the 565 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 2: three main religious systems or worldviews, so secularism, Eastern religions 566 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 2: which you include New Age, and then the Jewish and 567 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 2: Christian faiths. You argue that it's the kind of Judaism and 568 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,240 Speaker 2: Christianity together that can provide a basis for robust freedom. 569 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 2: But why can't secularism or the East in principle Eastern 570 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 2: faiths provide the basis for a robust freedom. 571 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: Well, just take history, Sean was their freedom in the 572 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 1: ancient world? No, the ancient world was ruled by fate. 573 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: It was in your stars or whatever it was. You 574 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: take the Delphic oracle. You know, Naotes is told his 575 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 1: son will murder him and marry his mother. So they do. 576 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: His parents Edith as his parents do everything they can 577 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: to beat the oracle. Everything they do makes it all 578 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,720 Speaker 1: the more certain the oracle comes true and knows fate. 579 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: You can't do otherwise, all other people can do is 580 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: look with sorrow and pity on someone who's a victim 581 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: of fate. That's the ancient world. You say, but we're modern. 582 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: But have you ever thought, I know you have Kishwan. 583 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: All the great atheists, Marx, Freud, Dawkins, Sam Harris, Jacques Mono, 584 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: there's not one of them who believes in freedom. If 585 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: you look by reason alone, by science alone, you can't 586 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:52,439 Speaker 1: find freedom. They believe in determinism. All the great atheists 587 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: are determinists. I don't know the system like the Bible 588 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: that gives you a strong view of freedom. But God, 589 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: who is a free God, free in his creation, let 590 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: there be, and there was, creates humans in his image. C. S. 591 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: Lewis calls us subcreators rather than creators. God respects our freedom. 592 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 1: Even some Christians they think because of original sin, there's 593 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: no freedom. The bondage of the world. You take, say 594 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: our Lord's words to Cain. He's thinking of murdering and 595 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: the Lord says, Sin is crouching at the door Kin 596 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: has a choice there now. Sadly, he goes out, follows 597 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,840 Speaker 1: his impulses and murders Able. But the Lord speaks to 598 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: him as a free agent who can make a decision 599 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: in the next seconds that are going to be determined. 600 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:54,359 Speaker 1: He does have freedom. Repentance is freedom. It's not as 601 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: fully free as when we're saved. No, we're well down 602 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: the line. We may have become obsessed or addicted to 603 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: whatever we're into, whether it's drink or drugs or bad behavior. 604 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: We may be losing our freedom. We can through addiction 605 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: by making all bad choices, but repentance is actually the 606 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: final freedom. We still have to turn back to the Lord. 607 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: So we should be the champions of freedom the atheist, can't. 608 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 2: You know you're right about that when you think about 609 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 2: people like Dawkins argues, it's kind of a kind of 610 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 2: genetic determinism that drives our behavior and drives morality. Sam 611 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 2: Harris wrote a whole book on how there's no such 612 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 2: thing as freedom. I mean, I've been reading Deuteronomy, as 613 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 2: you referenced, Open Overgain for the past maybe four to 614 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 2: six weeks, and one of the key verses is today 615 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 2: choose life to the nation of Israel. You have a 616 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 2: choice laid out before you. Now, I imagine a skeptic 617 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 2: might say, okay, in principle, they have a choice whether 618 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 2: they follow or not. But God lays this kind of 619 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: draconian rules on top of them and says, if you 620 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,440 Speaker 2: don't follow this, you'll have pestilence and all this judgment 621 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 2: and things will go terrible for you. And if they follow, 622 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 2: then in douronomy things will go well. So they have choice, 623 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 2: But is it really any kind of choice when it's 624 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 2: just two extremes laid out for him when Israel was 625 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 2: first founded. 626 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: But remember you're focusing on the negative side of judgment, 627 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: all the dreadful things that happen to them, and the 628 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: Jews read that every year with incredible awe and trembling. Now, 629 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: but the point is, judgment in the Bible is not 630 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: God's sapping us. Yeah, kind of drone strike from on high, 631 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 1: like killing of Salmoney on the airport. No. No judgment 632 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: in the scripture sometimes is that, But more often God's 633 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: leaving us or driving us to the logic of our 634 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: own settled choices. If we do certain things, certain things 635 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 1: will happen. We'll be reaping the harvest. We've sown the wind, 636 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 1: and we'll reap the whirlwind and so on. We've got 637 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 1: to remember that it's the logic of our own settled choices. 638 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: The Lord's just giving them a choice. It's not a threat. 639 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 1: He's setting out a choice. And if they want to 640 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,879 Speaker 1: reap the logic of what it is to leave them. Well, 641 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 1: for example, Israel's a tiny nation and it lives im 642 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:38,399 Speaker 1: again in the world between empires Egypt, Babylon, Syria, Greece, Rome, 643 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: and not surprisingly, they are the plaything of these great superpowers. 644 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:47,240 Speaker 1: And when they leave the Lord, what do they expect 645 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: their little football kicked around by the superpowers? As that 646 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: Lord's not saying I'm going to judge you by that. 647 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: He does use the superpowers to judge and deliberate them. 648 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 1: But if they want to play with him, that's the 649 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,720 Speaker 1: world they're in, and that the same American freedom left 650 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: to itself will produce chaos and the unraveling of America 651 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:16,399 Speaker 1: takes a school shootings. We've had tragically shootings this very 652 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 1: weekend again, and I've heard people say, all right, more guns. 653 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: That was the response to the shooting at Brown University. 654 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:30,239 Speaker 1: The constant in the American school massacres and the shootings 655 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,360 Speaker 1: is obviously the gun. The gun is only the how. 656 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: What's the why? The why is the lona and you 657 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,359 Speaker 1: can see so many of them from Columbine One, where 658 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 1: people with broken homes and all sorts of things like 659 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,720 Speaker 1: this who want to wreak their revenge on the school 660 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: of society, the neighborhood that they feel victimize them in 661 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 1: some way. And so we've got to be sure if 662 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,279 Speaker 1: we leave the law, there will be consequences. America will 663 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 1: go down in a welter of chaos and corruption in 664 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: some ways. 665 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 2: So if you were a pastor, what would this look 666 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 2: like for you in terms of addressing the area of politics, 667 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 2: because right now churches are just dividing and people are divided, 668 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 2: and there's polarized internally about supporting this candidate support that candidate. 669 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 2: You have a reference in the book that the pulpit 670 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 2: really needs to return to be the place where people 671 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 2: speak truth. What advice would you be would you give 672 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 2: for pastors and others to approach the importance of the 673 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 2: issues you're talking about here without getting what might be 674 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,839 Speaker 2: considered too political. 675 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: Sean, That's a huge question to be towards the end, 676 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: I would just say, very simply, much preaching has been 677 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: overly privatized and overly politicized politics. I love the old 678 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 1: saying politics is not the first thing. And the first 679 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: thing to say about politics is that politics is not 680 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: the first thing. So it's not the business of the 681 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 1: preacher to tell us how to vote and to get 682 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 1: into all the policy leaders. That's politicizing the pulpit. But 683 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: it is the business of the preacher to go beyond 684 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,240 Speaker 1: the purely private, bringing us to faith and then seeing 685 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 1: we're built up as disciples to preach the whole council 686 00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 1: of God. And it was the whole council of God 687 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: rediscovered in the Reformation that gave rise to modern freedom, 688 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: things like Covenant that I mentioned. So, how many pastors 689 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 1: are comfortable in preaching the Exodus and preaching Deuteronomy, not 690 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,240 Speaker 1: in terms of our contemporary policies, no, but the great 691 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:48,919 Speaker 1: Biblical truths without which we won't have free societies. Said 692 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,320 Speaker 1: that I haven't heard much of it. Too much preaching 693 00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 1: is overly privatized or overly politicized. Would that we had people, 694 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you read a book like say Leon Cassis, 695 00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,840 Speaker 1: The Founding of God's nation. There are magnificent truths that 696 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: should excite pastas to leap up out of their socks, 697 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,440 Speaker 1: the freedom to preach these great biblical truths. I mean 698 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:17,400 Speaker 1: Exodus alone. It's the muster narrative of human freedom for 699 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,080 Speaker 1: the whole of the West. It's also the greatest sustained 700 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,760 Speaker 1: critique of the abuse of power the world's ever seen. 701 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,759 Speaker 1: Why aren't we preaching it today over against the authoritarianism 702 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,319 Speaker 1: we're seeing now? As we should be excited out of 703 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 1: our minds by these great biblical truths. 704 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,880 Speaker 2: I love that balance between being politicized and but also 705 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,240 Speaker 2: being to privatize. There's a balance there that biblical truths 706 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 2: apply to our life and our cultural moment. But we've 707 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,800 Speaker 2: got to go back to the text and preach them fervently, 708 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 2: all right, So let me bring this full circle if 709 00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,279 Speaker 2: I can't. We're coming up on this two hundred and 710 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:04,400 Speaker 2: fiftieth year anniversary of America. What would you like to 711 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 2: see happen? What would you prefer that would tell you 712 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,800 Speaker 2: were possibly on the road towards renewal. 713 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: I would like to see, and this is actually underway, 714 00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:18,839 Speaker 1: whether it'll come out as we really hope and pray. 715 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, but out of a group of Christians 716 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:27,040 Speaker 1: in the House Congressional members, there's come a call to 717 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,560 Speaker 1: make May the seventh, which is the annual day of 718 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,920 Speaker 1: Prayer congressionally approved, originally led by people like Vonette Bright 719 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 1: and so on, a magnificent day. To make the annual 720 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,960 Speaker 1: day of prayer next year a day of prayer and 721 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:47,279 Speaker 1: national rededication. And at the height of it, and there 722 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 1: would be an event on Capitol Hill and local events 723 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,239 Speaker 1: around the country. At the heart of it, there will 724 00:48:54,280 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 1: be three things. One thanksgiving, Americans have an immense amount 725 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: to thank the Lord for. Secondly, confession, the very ideals 726 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,839 Speaker 1: of the American experiment, like the Declaration of Independence, are 727 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:17,240 Speaker 1: the standards by which America will be judged. And then thirdly, 728 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 1: rededication to America's first principles. Now someone's got to show 729 00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 1: people what they are. But those three elements, thanks, confession, 730 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:33,880 Speaker 1: and rededication. Take confession. You read Lincoln's prayers and confessions, 731 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,160 Speaker 1: they are magnificent. At the time of the Civil War, 732 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 1: we've forgotten God and all that That meant you need 733 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,160 Speaker 1: a leader today. I mean there are leaders, and you 734 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 1: can know who who think the confession is weakness, no 735 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: putting right. What's wrong is the way to go forward. 736 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,719 Speaker 1: It's not a question of going back and wallowing in 737 00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:00,520 Speaker 1: self deprecation, but clearing the guilt of the pass to 738 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:05,239 Speaker 1: go forward into the future. So forgiveness is incredibly important 739 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,400 Speaker 1: and Christians have got are shown. But another way Sean 740 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:15,000 Speaker 1: Yom Kippour. The day of Atonement was for Israel's national sin, 741 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: the sin of the Golden Calf. It wasn't just for individuals. 742 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:25,360 Speaker 1: America needs atonement. How could the radicals, even after Martin 743 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,920 Speaker 1: Luther King, twist the knife into America's guilt, particularly the guilt, 744 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,880 Speaker 1: say of Southern Christians who had justified slavery. The radicals 745 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,240 Speaker 1: on the left were able to twist the knife because 746 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:43,280 Speaker 1: there is still unaddressed, unresolved guilt in America. I'm English. 747 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,640 Speaker 1: In England, evangelicals are proud of the fact who were 748 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:52,040 Speaker 1: the abolitionists. They were Evangelicals. We don't have guilt in 749 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:56,080 Speaker 1: our hands. We thank God Evangelicals like LUs cast Us 750 00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,720 Speaker 1: in the sixteenth century. We're on behalf of freedom and reform. 751 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,800 Speaker 1: But here there's a mixed record. There's a lot of guilt. 752 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,040 Speaker 1: People phil feel bad, particularly about the South, and so on, 753 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:11,600 Speaker 1: and so America needs atonement, but it's atonement just for 754 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: you and me and our friends privately. No, surely there 755 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,680 Speaker 1: is a place for Christians to lead a day of confession. 756 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,839 Speaker 1: We're not doing the atonement next year, but I think 757 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,440 Speaker 1: beyond next year there's a place for that too. Now 758 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:28,560 Speaker 1: is we've got to take some of these great spiritual 759 00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,879 Speaker 1: truths and make them for America too, we who love 760 00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:33,319 Speaker 1: the nation. 761 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,040 Speaker 2: I have a ton more questions for you, but I 762 00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 2: want people to pick up your books. So my last 763 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:45,359 Speaker 2: question is in preparation for the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary, 764 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,480 Speaker 2: I would say, obviously we can be in prayer about this. 765 00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:55,279 Speaker 2: Your book, America Agonistis is just a clarion call to 766 00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,560 Speaker 2: think through the cultural moment we find ourselves in. You 767 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:03,279 Speaker 2: really encourage not just Christians but all people to say, 768 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,799 Speaker 2: what does it mean to be free? Where did our 769 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,879 Speaker 2: freedom come from? How do we maintain our freedom? I mean, 770 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,320 Speaker 2: this book is an invitation for the church and beyond 771 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,680 Speaker 2: at this two hundred and fifty year benchmark to reflect 772 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,200 Speaker 2: on that in the way we never have done before. 773 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,319 Speaker 2: So I encourage people to pick up your book, talk 774 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,080 Speaker 2: about it, talk with your kids about it, but anything 775 00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 2: else we should know and do in preparation for this year, 776 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,920 Speaker 2: so we can just respond biblically in this moment. 777 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,120 Speaker 1: No, yeah, I think you put it well. Pray, think 778 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,520 Speaker 1: see where we slipped, and then learn to bring our 779 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:45,279 Speaker 1: apologetics out into political discussion, taking ideas that people have 780 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,160 Speaker 1: and pushing them to the limit and showing that there's 781 00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,319 Speaker 1: a better story in all the things we do in 782 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 1: terms of atheism or Hinduism or Marxism, whatever it is. 783 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,799 Speaker 1: On the personal level, bringing people to faith we need 784 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,359 Speaker 1: to do. That's what Allies did to the nation. You know, 785 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:04,799 Speaker 1: up on your mind, Calm elige. You didn't say come 786 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,240 Speaker 1: back to God or is I was going to fall apart? 787 00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:12,080 Speaker 1: He said, if Bail is God, follow Bail. How can 788 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,399 Speaker 1: he say that? Well, he knows bayl is not God. 789 00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,839 Speaker 1: Now we know that on the personal level, apologetically, But 790 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,160 Speaker 1: I wish Christians would bring apologetics out of the personal 791 00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: and bring it into a public persuasion on all levels. 792 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 1: But above all, pray, I believe I may be wrong. 793 00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:36,399 Speaker 1: The Lord knows the answer. Humanly speaking, next year could 794 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,480 Speaker 1: be providential because people are forced to think about it. 795 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:46,760 Speaker 1: We mustn't just be content with fireworks and flyovers unless 796 00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,600 Speaker 1: there's a serious reflection, serious putting right what needs to 797 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 1: be put right, and a return to the best of 798 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,799 Speaker 1: the American experiment. The days of the republic are over. Now. 799 00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:00,799 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean America collapses. No, America could be a 800 00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,319 Speaker 1: democracy in name only, could be a powerful modern nation 801 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:09,360 Speaker 1: for a long time. But the republic, which really was 802 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,760 Speaker 1: a form of freedom, like, no, oh, that will be gone. 803 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,400 Speaker 2: If I made one more question, I would love to 804 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,000 Speaker 2: hear you. Just tell me a little bit more what 805 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,560 Speaker 2: you mean by kind of applying our apologetics in the 806 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,000 Speaker 2: political realm, because I think people hear that, and I 807 00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,399 Speaker 2: realize this is an entire conversation in itself. We could 808 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,360 Speaker 2: spend another hour on what this would look like, but 809 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,120 Speaker 2: maybe just a principle or thought onto what it would 810 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,719 Speaker 2: look like in your mind to do apologetics well, and 811 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:39,360 Speaker 2: the way in fact, the way you phrased it was 812 00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:43,320 Speaker 2: kind of arguing for a better story. So it's less 813 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 2: about political power, it's less about a political party. It's 814 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,279 Speaker 2: ultimately about the story of Christianity. As I hear you, 815 00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,319 Speaker 2: but give us some guidelines or principles of what you 816 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:54,440 Speaker 2: think that might look like. 817 00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,480 Speaker 1: Well, take next year in the Declaration. Clearly, the Declaration 818 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,000 Speaker 1: is the high of the brilliance of American independence. A 819 00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,640 Speaker 1: book came out the last month called the greatest sentence 820 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,640 Speaker 1: ever written. Well, I mean we hold these truths to 821 00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,520 Speaker 1: be self evident? That or you know, you know the sentence. Certainly, 822 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:18,840 Speaker 1: it's a great sentence, the best sentence in the Declaration. 823 00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,920 Speaker 1: But just take two things. It's not the greatest. I mean, 824 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,919 Speaker 1: John three point sixteen is infinitely greater. But just take 825 00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,760 Speaker 1: what it is. We hold these truths to be self evident. 826 00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,799 Speaker 1: They didn't follow it. They wrote that and said that 827 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,719 Speaker 1: and kept their slaves, and that's the original sin of 828 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,120 Speaker 1: the American Revolution tragically, and we've got to own up 829 00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,480 Speaker 1: to that. Or take a second part, more logical, we 830 00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,319 Speaker 1: hold these truths to be self evident. Why did they 831 00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,080 Speaker 1: say that? They would never have been self evident to 832 00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: Plato or to Aristotle, or to the Hindus who have 833 00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,240 Speaker 1: untouchables as well as Brahmin or to the great captains 834 00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:06,240 Speaker 1: of history like Alexander and so on. It's an absurd statement. 835 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,880 Speaker 1: Why is it self evident? Who is itself evident? To 836 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:15,400 Speaker 1: only one group the readers of the Bible. Jews and Christians. 837 00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:21,480 Speaker 1: Now you've got a very important statement there. Christians can 838 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:28,520 Speaker 1: tackle that apologetically. Yes, it's a fantastic statement. Only if 839 00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:30,560 Speaker 1: you know that people are made in the image of God, 840 00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:33,200 Speaker 1: the poor as well as the rich, the plane as 841 00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,680 Speaker 1: well as the beautiful, and go on down the line, 842 00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:39,120 Speaker 1: only to biblical people Jews and Christians. Is that true? 843 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,640 Speaker 1: So Americans have an apologetic opportunity even to discuss something 844 00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,359 Speaker 1: that's going to be the most discussed saying of next year. 845 00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:50,360 Speaker 1: And we've got to do that across the board. With freedom, 846 00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:53,320 Speaker 1: what we are talking about with our atheist friend Sam Harris, 847 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,160 Speaker 1: he has a puppet on the front cover of his book, 848 00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:02,719 Speaker 1: Why conclusion, we are puppets. Figure out scientifically what drives us. 849 00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:07,640 Speaker 1: We can never do otherwise than we've done. That's not freedom, 850 00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:12,359 Speaker 1: that's determinism. You know, we have an incredible opportunity. That's 851 00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:17,160 Speaker 1: what I mean by dealing with these big political issues apologetically. 852 00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:20,840 Speaker 1: Now you could call that prophetic rather than apologetic, but 853 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:26,520 Speaker 1: I see no difference. It's all seamless to me. Arguing 854 00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,880 Speaker 1: for truth on the personal level, we'll call it apologetics. 855 00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,400 Speaker 1: On the public level, call it something else. But they're 856 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:34,240 Speaker 1: all the same. 857 00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,680 Speaker 2: Very helpful. I love that distinction and that challenge to 858 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,800 Speaker 2: kind of seize the cultural moment we're in, to talk 859 00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,400 Speaker 2: about the issues that matter most ultimately, to try to 860 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,680 Speaker 2: be compelling to the story that you and I believe 861 00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:52,000 Speaker 2: and know is ultimately true. As always enjoyed the read. 862 00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:57,240 Speaker 2: It's provocative, it's interesting, it's called American agonistas can hold 863 00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,000 Speaker 2: up a copy just came out, and friends, in light 864 00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:02,880 Speaker 2: of this two hundred and fifty years, let's be in 865 00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,600 Speaker 2: prayer for our country, Let's be in prayer for our leaders. 866 00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:08,520 Speaker 2: A book like this will make you think and reflect 867 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,720 Speaker 2: upon how unique in some ways America is and pray 868 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,680 Speaker 2: for renewal in our country and beyond, because if you've 869 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,200 Speaker 2: heard today, a lot is at stake. Before we click 870 00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,520 Speaker 2: away and make sure you hit subscribe, we got a 871 00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:23,600 Speaker 2: lot of other programs like this coming up where we 872 00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,560 Speaker 2: want to challenge and equip you to be an apologist 873 00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,920 Speaker 2: and evangelist and just think biblically about cultural issues today. 874 00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:33,880 Speaker 2: And we've got a master's program in apologetics online and 875 00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,880 Speaker 2: in person. We'd love to have you think about joining us. 876 00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:42,400 Speaker 2: Information is below. We also have totally updated our certificate program. 877 00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,080 Speaker 2: If you're not ready for a master's but you want 878 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:45,800 Speaker 2: to learn how to defend the faith. There is a 879 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:50,320 Speaker 2: significant discount below in the description we will see as 880 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,960 Speaker 2: soon again as Ginnis. Thanks for joining me, and I 881 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,320 Speaker 2: hope folks pick up America agonistis. 882 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,800 Speaker 1: I just say it's only on Amazon. I've self published 883 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:01,160 Speaker 1: it in order to play at three or four books 884 00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:02,320 Speaker 1: fast in one year. 885 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,160 Speaker 2: So onlin Amazon, you heard it, which is why you 886 00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,640 Speaker 2: have a quick turnaround. And so many of the examples 887 00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,760 Speaker 2: seem just incredibly timely and relevant. So well done. 888 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:14,200 Speaker 1: Thank you. 889 00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 2: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that 890 00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,080 Speaker 2: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning 891 00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:22,480 Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet and it makes a huge 892 00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,280 Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and 893 00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:29,680 Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every 894 00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,040 Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, 895 00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,960 Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, 896 00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,360 Speaker 2: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic 897 00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,680 Speaker 2: spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible and so much more. 898 00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,760 Speaker 2: We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach, 899 00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,680 Speaker 2: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see 900 00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:51,520 Speaker 2: you when the next episode drops.