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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer and I'm

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Speaker 1: joined today by doctor Christa l mcgirkland. She is the

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Speaker 1: author of a Theology of Authority, Rethinking or Leadership in

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Speaker 1: the Church, and she's also the Dina Faculty and Lecturer

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Speaker 1: in Systematic Theology at Carrie Baptist College in New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: And so Christa really happy to have you on the

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Speaker 1: show today. Thanks so much for being here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much James for the invitation.

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Speaker 1: Truly honored, absolutely so. This is a fascinating book. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I've been thinking about authority for some time.

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Speaker 1: I did some work in politics and so authority comes

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Speaker 1: up an awful lot there but I'm wondering what drew

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Speaker 1: you into this topic.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for that, James. So for me being raised

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Speaker 2: Southern Baptists as a little girl growing up in the

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Speaker 2: Southern Baptist tradition in Georgia, really loving the church and

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Speaker 2: my dad's a minister in that context, and so found

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Speaker 2: my love for Jesus and my love for Scripture in

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Speaker 2: that context. But I didn't really see women, I mean

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Speaker 2: even passing an offering plate as simple as that, because

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Speaker 2: only deacon's passed offering plates, and women weren't allowed to

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Speaker 2: be deacons, and a lot of it circled around this

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Speaker 2: idea of well, women aren't allowed to have that kind

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Speaker 2: of authority. So I've heard that word since I was

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Speaker 2: really little, and since since that time, right going on

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Speaker 2: and doing I did a philosophy undergraduate degree that I

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Speaker 2: did a master's in Biblical exposition and Greek and Hebrew,

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Speaker 2: and then I did another master's in systematic theology, which

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Speaker 2: all of them combined for me to do my doctorate,

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Speaker 2: bringing all those disciplines together, so doing analytic and exegetical theology.

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Speaker 2: So taking this kind of really fine tooth comb way

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Speaker 2: of thinking toward kind of basic concepts, so words that

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Speaker 2: we use all the time, like authority and then saying, actually,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, what do we mean by that? And

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Speaker 2: what I found is we often have a lot of

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Speaker 2: assumptions when we use that word, and we use it

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Speaker 2: a lot like teaching authority or spiritual authority or fill

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Speaker 2: in the blank. Deacons have this type of authority. And

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Speaker 2: I just you know, as I was getting into my

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Speaker 2: PhD and then thinking with this analytic lens, but I

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Speaker 2: actually think I have the chops now to kind of

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Speaker 2: tackle that question what do we mean by authority? So

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Speaker 2: that's what got me into that is very much from

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Speaker 2: my experience, but seeing this gap really in how we

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Speaker 2: talk about this concept.

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Speaker 1: And I think probably as I read through your work,

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Speaker 1: I think people are probably most familiar with one specific

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Speaker 1: type of authority. But maybe what would be helpful is

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Speaker 1: two things. Number One, you use Richard de George's work.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm getting that right. Richard George George can't talk,

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Speaker 1: but you use his framework for a lot of this.

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Speaker 1: And I was unfamiliar with him, got a little bit

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Speaker 1: more familiar with him through your book, and then read

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Speaker 1: some of his stuff sort of ancillarily. But i'd love

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Speaker 1: to have your take on why do George in his

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Speaker 1: work was so compelling, why you used it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this will come back to that analytic way

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Speaker 2: of thinking. So funny enough, my PhD I had done

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Speaker 2: a similar methodology where I had found this concept of

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Speaker 2: need that was actually really theologically salient, really significant for

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Speaker 2: talking theologically about what it means to be human. So

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Speaker 2: I'd come across an analytic philosopher who wasn't trying to

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Speaker 2: think in a Christian key. His rubric helped me then

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Speaker 2: think a bit more carefully about this concept of need,

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Speaker 2: which then really shaped my whole theological anthropology. So then

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Speaker 2: as I was coming into this authority project, I actually

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Speaker 2: wasn't really meaning to do the same methodology, but I

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Speaker 2: found similarly and funny enough, same year everything but another

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Speaker 2: analytic philosopher from nineteen eighty five to George, who had

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Speaker 2: done something similar with this concept of authority. I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: I really like how this worked for my PhD, which

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Speaker 2: then became my first book on my own theological anthropology.

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Speaker 2: God's provision, humanity's need, the gift of our dependence. And

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Speaker 2: so then now this is actually really turning in a

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Speaker 2: communal key and saying how are we meant to relate

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Speaker 2: to one another in the body of Christ. So it's

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Speaker 2: kind of theological anthropology communally situated. And then I came

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Speaker 2: across this as really as I was trying to just

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Speaker 2: get my bearings on well what do we mean by

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Speaker 2: this word? And I thought, actually, this is so rich.

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Speaker 2: I think this could act actually frame the project itself.

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Speaker 2: So this kind of metaphor that you would have seen

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Speaker 2: through the book right of thinking through kind of what

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Speaker 2: are the materials that make up our bricks, So the

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Speaker 2: minerals and the soils, the clay coming from Georgia that

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Speaker 2: make up the bricks that we then will build our

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Speaker 2: theology of authority based upon. And so to build that,

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Speaker 2: what's in the soil the words that we use. And

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Speaker 2: so analytic philosophy is this gorgeous tool. I know analytic

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Speaker 2: philosophy is not for everyone, but for me, especially for

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Speaker 2: a project like this where we're seeking clarity on things

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Speaker 2: that actually when we're not clear, we do a lot

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Speaker 2: of harm. That's been my experience. And so I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: this is a great tool to bring to this conversation,

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Speaker 2: and so did George. Was just this really low hanging

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Speaker 2: fruit I've read widely on other kind of philosophers who

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Speaker 2: did kind of this precise work on authority, but he

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Speaker 2: was the best. He just had the most clarity, and

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Speaker 2: he gave me a starting point. And so I even

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Speaker 2: say that I think in the book like, hey, there

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Speaker 2: may be other ways to parse this out, but we've

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Speaker 2: got to get the conversation off the ground. And so

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Speaker 2: exactly like what you're saying, when we hear that word authority,

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Speaker 2: we tend to think of a form of authority called

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Speaker 2: imperative authority. I say jump, you say how high? And

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Speaker 2: if you don't, I get to compel a consequence. But

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Speaker 2: that's actually a very narrow band of all the different

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Speaker 2: permutations or expressions of authority that we actually see in society,

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Speaker 2: in our families, and I would say across scripture. And

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Speaker 2: so his framework then gave me kind of a lens

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Speaker 2: to come to the text knowing that the biblical scholars

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Speaker 2: aren't thinking in those analytic categories, but to say, kind

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Speaker 2: of descriptively, what would fit from what we're seeing scripture

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Speaker 2: in scripture descriptively, how might that map on to this rubric,

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Speaker 2: this helpful rubric that de George provides. So it was

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Speaker 2: really in the research process that I found him, but

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Speaker 2: it was having done a similar project beforehand that I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: I think I could leverage him similarly with a real

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Speaker 2: theological upshot, even though that's not his intention as an

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Speaker 2: analytic philosopher.

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Speaker 1: Do you find it just and this is sort of

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Speaker 1: a side question before we jump into the questions about authority,

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Speaker 1: But you know, did George was in the business realm,

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Speaker 1: so he did a lot with business ethics and those

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Speaker 1: kind of things. Do you find that his model matches

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Speaker 1: so well within the church because the church has adopted

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Speaker 1: some of the business structures. I was just sort of

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Speaker 1: one of the passing questions I had as I was

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Speaker 1: reading it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. So that was something that was actually quite

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Speaker 2: sensitive to because I'm very concerned about how we just

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Speaker 2: imported business models onto our churches. I think that is

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Speaker 2: the wrong way around. If a business model can be

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Speaker 2: helpful after the fact, but I think sometimes the tail

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Speaker 2: is wagging the dog there. So that was one of

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Speaker 2: my as I read through him, because I'm also reading

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Speaker 2: did George quite critical, right, so I'm thinking through where

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Speaker 2: is it different with what he's saying? So I would

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Speaker 2: push on some of how he parses out religious authority

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Speaker 2: and even God's authority because he is coming even though

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Speaker 2: it's not giving a Christian framework, he is coming from

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Speaker 2: what seems to me, I think a Roman Catholic perspective.

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Speaker 2: So he's got some pretty high views of how church

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Speaker 2: authority and God's authority would be mediated through that that

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Speaker 2: I don't really take on board entirely, though I love

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Speaker 2: the categories he gives us. And then the other piece,

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Speaker 2: I think to your point, even when he talks about

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Speaker 2: different groups in none of the ways the groups are

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Speaker 2: functioning and how authority might be operative. So it's that

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Speaker 2: word of operative authority where you're using you're allowing folks

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Speaker 2: to act on behalf of the group for an agreed

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Speaker 2: upon end. Well, the George is not bringing up that

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Speaker 2: the agreed upon end is given by God and that

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Speaker 2: the spirit is the one mediating that end, and so

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Speaker 2: coming from a low church, which this book is aimed

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Speaker 2: at low church folks, because we keep saying, oh, we

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Speaker 2: don't do authority, right, priestit of all believers, we don't

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Speaker 2: do hierarchy, And I'm like, I'm sorry, we sure do.

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Speaker 2: And because we don't name it, we can't. Then interrogate

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Speaker 2: it and say which are good and bad uses of authority.

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Speaker 2: So in saying all of that, I was very sensitive,

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Speaker 2: and I'm sure I didn't catch all the areas where

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Speaker 2: there would be inconsistency between did George's framework and an

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Speaker 2: ecclesial framework, but I came with those antenna hurt thinking through. Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is not thinking pneumatologically. Whereas my work and even

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Speaker 2: my first book, that's the whole thread of thinking about

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Speaker 2: humanness is we've actually got to think about the spirit

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Speaker 2: and we also have to think about Christology. So those

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Speaker 2: aren't in the George's frame. So that's that's going to impact,

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Speaker 2: of course how he thinks about operationalizing authority.

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Speaker 1: But I think what I found as I was reading

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Speaker 1: through your book. You know you've got the the two

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Speaker 1: major ones executive and non executive, and then the subdivisions

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Speaker 1: within that imperative, performative and then really the non executive.

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Speaker 1: Does it have helped me out with epistemic?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, epistemic and exemplary.

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Speaker 1: An exemplary. Thank you, Epistemic and exemplary. They if I

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Speaker 1: look at the church phenomenologically, apart from scripture, you see

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Speaker 1: all four of these operative and to your point, you know,

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Speaker 1: within low church traditions where we don't really talk about authority,

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Speaker 1: an awful lot epistemic and.

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Speaker 2: Exemplary.

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Speaker 1: Epistemic and exemplary are there, sort of in spades. You

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Speaker 1: see them all over the place. And then I would

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Speaker 1: even say, the charismatic aspects that you pull into that

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Speaker 1: executive side are really there. So I think you did

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Speaker 1: a like just if I'm looking phenomenologically, I see those.

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Speaker 1: And then what I found compelling about your book was

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Speaker 1: your root those back into scripture and kind of saying

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Speaker 1: not let's put this map on top of the Bible

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Speaker 1: and then read it, but more, can't do these really

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Speaker 1: emerge out of the text? In other words, can we

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Speaker 1: connect from the bottom of the Biblical text up to

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Speaker 1: these concepts and show that they really do emerge out

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Speaker 1: of what we're seeing in scripture? Which I thought was

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Speaker 1: really helpful.

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Speaker 2: So thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe we should go through and help people understand

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Speaker 1: these these broad categories of executive non executive, and then

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Speaker 1: the subcategories underneath them, just to give people a sense

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Speaker 1: of what they are.

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Speaker 2: Great. Yeah, So, as we've mentioned, right, imperative executive authority

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Speaker 2: is the species people tend to think of the most

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Speaker 2: But we're going to talk first. As you said, these

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Speaker 2: two broad families of thinking about authorities, so executive and

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Speaker 2: non executive, and I'm using to George's categories here, so

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Speaker 2: he would say that the executive authorities, those aren't positional,

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Speaker 2: so you have that kind of authority. So a classic example, right,

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Speaker 2: would be a police officer has authority to enact the

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Speaker 2: laws that are actually even police officers, right, they're delegated

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Speaker 2: executive authorities because they can't just go they're not supposed

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Speaker 2: to go off and do their own thing, right, so

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Speaker 2: they are authorized by the legislature and the law giving community,

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Speaker 2: which are supposed to be in a democratic society actually

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Speaker 2: authorized by the people. So you actually can see that

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Speaker 2: on executive authority, there's meant to be proper channels by

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Speaker 2: which authority is given. There's real strict limits on where

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Speaker 2: it should and shouldn't go. And so we might even

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Speaker 2: see in a more simple simple way as a parent

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Speaker 2: child relationship. So with my kids, I hope one day

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Speaker 2: they will eat their vegetables without having to have a

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Speaker 2: consequence compelled. But right now, the consequences if you don't

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Speaker 2: eat your vegetables then you're not going to get candy

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Speaker 2: ball after dinner. So I get to compel that consot

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Speaker 2: quins as their parent. But here's the thing, Right, if

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Speaker 2: I'm still parenting them like that when they're eighteen, something

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Speaker 2: actually hasn't worked correctly. Like if that, because that is

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Speaker 2: actually the lowest form and we find this in psychological

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Speaker 2: literature as well. Right, the lowest form of motivation is

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Speaker 2: do this because I said so. But executive imperative authority

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Speaker 2: has that ability, and in certain cases that is needed

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Speaker 2: in societal functions. What I push against pretty hard is

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Speaker 2: I actually think we don't have that form of interpersonal

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Speaker 2: authority in the church. Again, speaking in a low church context.

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Speaker 2: I know other churches with a hierarchical understanding they would

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Speaker 2: push on me on this, and that's just fine. But

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Speaker 2: for low church folks who say we don't do hierarchy,

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Speaker 2: I would say, we don't have this ability for a

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Speaker 2: singular individual to say you cannot do X, Y or Z,

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Speaker 2: and I can compel a consequence if you do what

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Speaker 2: we can say. And this is going to come back

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Speaker 2: to our authority of scripture, which, in getting a little

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Speaker 2: ahead of us there, we can say, I think scripture

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Speaker 2: says that you're not to do X, Y or Z.

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Speaker 2: But in that case, God is the authority. Scripture is

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Speaker 2: mediating that authority, and I am the interpreter of that authority.

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Speaker 2: But I always have to be aware as an interpreter,

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Speaker 2: I can be fallible in my interpretation. So this is

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Speaker 2: why I really exhort communal interpretation. I exhort doing that

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Speaker 2: in our local communities in relationship. And I also do

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Speaker 2: love people being theologically trained and scripturally literate, so all

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Speaker 2: of that comes into play there. But all that to say,

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Speaker 2: I do give one one counterexample to that, which would

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Speaker 2: be church discipline. But even in that case, it's not

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Speaker 2: a singular individual who's making those decisions. So this is

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Speaker 2: pulling from a Matthew eighteen understanding that if something has

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Speaker 2: gone on in the body and it seems to me

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Speaker 2: and I tease us out in the book, it's defaming

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Speaker 2: the gospel, so the witness and or the words of

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Speaker 2: Christ Jesus, and it is defaming that witness of the community.

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Speaker 2: The community has a responsibility to call that out. But

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Speaker 2: even then Matthew eighteen right, the discipline text is in

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Speaker 2: the context of the parable of the Lost Sheet so

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Speaker 2: it's all about restoration even then, So that is a

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Speaker 2: one form of imperative executive authority that I still see

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Speaker 2: as operative in the church. But that is precious little.

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Speaker 2: But how funny it is that most of the time

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Speaker 2: when we think of authority, that's the thing we go to,

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Speaker 2: which I see is quite exceptional across the canon.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think you're sorry if I can just

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Speaker 1: that your work in that passage, that discipline passage. I

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Speaker 1: started thinking about higher Church traditions, and I don't represent

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Speaker 1: the High Church tradition in any way, shape or form,

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Speaker 1: but understanding even how their processes work. A lot of

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Speaker 1: that is we could call it representative communal. So it's

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Speaker 1: not like there's one person who makes a decision, even

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Speaker 1: when we have if we looked at Catholics and you said, well,

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Speaker 1: how's the pope chosen? Well, the pope isn't just you know,

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Speaker 1: there's not just one pope chooser. There's just not totally why.

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Speaker 1: It's a council of people who kind of get together

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Speaker 1: and say okay this, and those council of people have

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Speaker 1: been appointed by other councils of people, and so you

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Speaker 1: have this sort of rounding communal but it is intended

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Speaker 1: to be representative communal. Yeah, that's a great certain degree,

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Speaker 1: and so I don't think you can get away from

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Speaker 1: just the communal aspects of this, I guess.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I love that reading your piece.

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Speaker 2: I love that, And I think that's actually a really

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Speaker 2: great touch point between thinking through what Low Church and

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Speaker 2: high churches could learn from each other in this because

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Speaker 2: I actually think those who have done hierarchy and it's

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Speaker 2: more of a feature not a bug in the ecclesial tradition,

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Speaker 2: there's actually more checks and balances and measures to then

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Speaker 2: make sure there's not overreach that because we in low

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Speaker 2: Church context have not said we have that. I feel

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Speaker 2: like we're just shooting from the hip all the time

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Speaker 2: and we're seeing that play out on a public sphere.

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Speaker 2: How well that's going. It's not looking great? So so sorry.

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Speaker 1: Back to your question, Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The other executive authority, the other form of executive authority.

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Speaker 1: So we've gotten the.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the or the imperative. Yep, so imperative

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Speaker 2: right to command, to command and the power to compel

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Speaker 2: a consequence. But then there's this other species of executive authority,

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Speaker 2: which is called performative executive authority. And so thinking about

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Speaker 2: this in a normal role, you might think of a surgeon, Right,

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Speaker 2: you're sick, you need to have a procedure, you need

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Speaker 2: to have that performed on you, and you don't have

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Speaker 2: the expertise to do that thing. But you're the patient.

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Speaker 2: You are commissioning that surgeon. But once you're under anesthesia,

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Speaker 2: you are completely under their authority, right, but you have

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Speaker 2: authorized them to act on your behalf, and it is

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Speaker 2: also for a set end, so the limits of that

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Speaker 2: performative executive authority are also quite bounded. You might think

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Speaker 2: of a lawyer doing the same thing and representing you

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Speaker 2: before a judge, that kind of thing, but you're still

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Speaker 2: the client. So there's this real sense of a proximity

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Speaker 2: relation between the person who's being represented and the person

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Speaker 2: who's doing the performing on that person that if they're

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Speaker 2: not performing it, well, they get called to account on that.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to circle back to that one in

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Speaker 2: a second, but let me just finish out the other

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Speaker 2: two categories. Okay, So that's executive, that is to have

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Speaker 2: an authority and its positional. What's so fascinating those most

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Speaker 2: of our authorities in our everyday interactions fall in the

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Speaker 2: non executive category, and these are a matter of beating

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Speaker 2: an authority. So this falls into two categories. Broadly epistemic,

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Speaker 2: which is just a fancy word for knowledge what you know.

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Speaker 2: So I have more knowledge, well maybe on authority right now,

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Speaker 2: though you probably have comparable with having read my book,

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Speaker 2: but I had a bit more knowledge than you did.

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Speaker 2: But as an epistemic authority, that doesn't give me power

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Speaker 2: over you. You get to choose whether or not to believe

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Speaker 2: what I say, often based upon the argument. You might

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Speaker 2: also look at how how could this be lived? So

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Speaker 2: you're looking at pragmatic concerns. So you're testing that epistemic authority.

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Speaker 2: But all you have to do to undermine the power

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Speaker 2: of an epistemic authority is simply not believe. That's all

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Speaker 2: it takes. So Letty Russell talks about this like, actually,

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Speaker 2: we have great power, and I think about this in

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Speaker 2: our current age of disinformation and misinformation. Actually those things

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Speaker 2: don't have to have authority over us and don't have

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Speaker 2: to have power over our minds if we can do

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Speaker 2: fact checking right and source checking. So not believing is

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Speaker 2: the mode of resistance. So there isn't a power to

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Speaker 2: compel obedience. There's not a power to compel a consequence.

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Speaker 2: I should also have said with performative authority, it's not

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Speaker 2: so much a power to enforce a consequence as it

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Speaker 2: is if you don't have the performance, the consequence happens naturally, gotcha.

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Speaker 2: So if you don't have the surgery, you might die

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Speaker 2: of that sickness. If you don't have representation, you might

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Speaker 2: go to jail. So the consequence, instead of it being

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Speaker 2: I'm compelling one, a consequence just is naturally happening. So

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Speaker 2: the performative there's still a consequence in play, but it's

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Speaker 2: not as direct of a power over, so it's more

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Speaker 2: of a power with and so I play with some

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Speaker 2: of the power categories as well. So then finally in

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Speaker 2: going back to the non executive, so it's quick summary

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Speaker 2: again executive authority having a positional authority. So that's imperative

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Speaker 2: I can command, or it's performative I act on you,

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Speaker 2: but you've consented to my acting on you. Non executive

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Speaker 2: no power over, but it's power to teach or power

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Speaker 2: to equip. So that's where epistemic is one of those

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Speaker 2: authorities where I have more knowledge than you so I

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Speaker 2: am an epistemic authority and then finally is exemplary authority.

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Speaker 2: So this is where especially on apprentice models, right, So

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Speaker 2: to become a plumber, you might follow a plumber around

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Speaker 2: and you watch how they fix that toilet. That tells

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Speaker 2: you how to fix it. They're not going to maintain

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Speaker 2: having exemplary authority if they don't actually fix the thing.

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Speaker 2: So the proof is in the pudding. And then the

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Speaker 2: proof for you is that you imitate their actions and

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Speaker 2: you are then able to do the thing that they're doing. Now,

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Speaker 2: of course we see throughout the philosophical schools, throughout ancient

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Speaker 2: history through to Jesus, right, parapatetic, you're walking with the person,

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Speaker 2: the rabbi that you want to become like. So actually

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Speaker 2: that exemplary authority is incredibly profound. And again it doesn't

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Speaker 2: give the person power over because you're choosing. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of agency involved in this. I'm choosing to imitate

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Speaker 2: that person because I want to look like them. So

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Speaker 2: the exemplary authority, it doesn't have the power to compel obedience,

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Speaker 2: but it is this power to become like me. And

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Speaker 2: so this is of course, I think so salient in

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Speaker 2: the New Testament, because we see this imitate me as

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Speaker 2: I imitate Christ. Right looking at Paul and so much

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Speaker 2: discipleship I think is based in these non executive authority categories.

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Speaker 2: Now finally to circle back to the performative authority, So

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Speaker 2: I do provide kind of a constructive category that I

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Speaker 2: think is operative in the church that did George is not. Again,

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Speaker 2: that's not his mindset, right. So looking at how I

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Speaker 2: read the New Testament, and I go through a lot

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Speaker 2: of those texts in a bit more detail to just

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Speaker 2: trite to say, hey, I think this is emerging from

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Speaker 2: the text. Not that I'm trying to impose this from

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Speaker 2: the top down, but thinking of what do leaders in

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Speaker 2: our churches, What kind of authority do they have? What

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Speaker 2: seems they begin with having exemplary authority, they are looking

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Speaker 2: like Jesus. And then you do get at a few

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Speaker 2: texts about having this capacity to teach, whether or not

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Speaker 2: that's a skill or a gift. It gets a bit mixed.

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Speaker 2: It might be both of it be one or the other.

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Speaker 2: But and then also there's parts in the New Testament

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Speaker 2: it's like all of you should be teaching by now.

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Speaker 2: So there's also questions on how we're actually meant to

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Speaker 2: teach one another. But regardless, we see that that non

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Speaker 2: executive exemplary authority paired with the non executive epistemic authority

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Speaker 2: then warrants that person being chosen by the community to

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Speaker 2: be performative in their executive authority. But it is not imperative.

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Speaker 2: It is to perform, and I call it equipping performative authority.

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Speaker 2: This is pulling heavily from Ephesians four, but I think

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Speaker 2: we can see it latently in other texts where the

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Speaker 2: task of those who are leading and leading is plural.

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Speaker 2: As best we can tell, in the New Testament, leadership

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Speaker 2: is plural. The task of leaders is to equip the

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Speaker 2: saints for the work of ministry. It's not the task

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Speaker 2: of the leaders to do the work of ministry. Their

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Speaker 2: function is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. So,

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Speaker 2: if we're going to actually say what's the task that

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Speaker 2: those who are being performed on, what are they holding

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Speaker 2: those leaders to account on? It's are they being equipped? Now.

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Speaker 2: What my hope is with the book is it actually

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Speaker 2: cuts two ways. One is I think we do need

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Speaker 2: to kind of de celebritize leaders and be really aware

433
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 2: of how we have created two tiered hierarchies within our

434
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 2: communities of clergy and lady, and I just I don't

435
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 2: see that as the New Testament ethos. While at the

436
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: same time, I think we need leaders and we need

437
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: good ways to talk about leadership, which is what I'm

438
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: hoping this book moves us toward. But the second way

439
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: this book cuts is to say, hey, spirit gifted saints,

440
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: you've got a responsibility. So if you keep just thinking, oh, well,

441
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: I pay my tithe, I don't need to do that

442
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: heavy lifting like they do the hard work. Right, why

443
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: do pastors where so many pastors burning out? I think

444
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: we have this very passive body who doesn't realize their

445
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 2: spirit gifted dignity and to walk in that. And so

446
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 2: this is where the equipping performative authority. I say, if

447
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: you are enabling your communities, if you're doing for the

448
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: body what the body should be doing for itself, that's

449
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 2: an overreach of that performative executive authority. And if you

450
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 2: are sitting in a pew and expecting to just keep

451
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 2: being spoon fed, and you just stay on milk and

452
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 2: not move on to solid food, you've got a responsibility

453
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 2: to step into your discipleship. So it really I hope

454
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 2: it cuts both ways. I don't want church was finishing

455
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: it thinking oh gosh, and I've just got so much

456
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 2: more to do. I hope they feel encouraged that they've

457
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: got a whole community that's meant to be doing that

458
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 2: with them, and I hope people in a few think, ah,

459
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 2: I've got some real dignity that the God of the

460
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,479
Speaker 2: universe has given me that I need to be stepping

461
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: into and that those might work together. So that's the.

462
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: GISTs that was I mean, I think that that last

463
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 1: point was something I wanted to bring up. Where As

464
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: you're reading through this, you get the sense that a

465
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: lot of the times when you might see authority abused,

466
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: let's say, part of the problem is that the people

467
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 1: who are having the authority exercised over them don't know

468
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 1: enough to check the authority that they put in place

469
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: over them. And so the epistemic side, let's say we

470
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,120
Speaker 1: should be able to see false teaching, a false teachers

471
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: per se, right, I would make a little bit of

472
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: a distinction which isn't quite publical, but a false teaching

473
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: maybe a mistake in teaching. Somebody gets something wrong, as

474
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: you'd mentioned, you know, your fallible interpretations, right, but the

475
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: people in the pew should be able to recognize that

476
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: and address some of that, right, not in an evil way,

477
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: but just in a hey are you sure about this

478
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: one kind of kind of move. But when we're not

479
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: able to do that, that then creates the space for

480
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: that epistemic authority to turn into more of a weird

481
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: exemplary authority and potentially a weird performative authority. And so

482
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: there is this sort of two way street that needs

483
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,719
Speaker 1: to happen within the paradigm you've created. I think that

484
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: it's like, if this is more of a consensus driven

485
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: or a communally driven sort of approach to authority, I

486
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: think you almost have to have lay leaders, lay people

487
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: who are developing these characteristics as well. The other aspect

488
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about really was I found

489
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: the it was really interesting and what came out clearly

490
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: I think throughout the book is that there's the performative

491
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 1: is to equip right, you just said it, the performatives

492
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: to equip that the there isn't a holiness to choosing leadership,

493
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: that this is a you know, more of a functional

494
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: designation or organizational designation. And one of the techs I

495
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: kept thinking around was acts. I think it's six or seven,

496
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: where the Greek speaking Jews have come and they've said, hey,

497
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: we're not getting enough food and there's not this distribution,

498
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: and so what do the apostles do. They get together

499
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: and they say, well, let's find some spirit filled men,

500
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: some men of great character, right, Like they're not just

501
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: picking scrubs out of the out of the group. They're saying,

502
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: this is an important task. Now we need to be

503
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: studying the word and praying, but we also need really

504
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: gifted men to do this. And so then they choose

505
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: these these two and then we see what happens with

506
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: Stephen in the next chackter. But I found that to

507
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: be a really compelling sort of moment to illustrate. I

508
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: think what you're explaining, like, this is not a peon

509
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: position that they're appointed to. This is a powerful position

510
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: that they're pointed to, and they're appointed to it to

511
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: serve the community.

512
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: Totally. I love that. Yeah, and even just pulling that

513
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: text up that it's the Hellenistic Jews who are complaining,

514
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 2: and it's so interesting to me, right that they choose

515
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 2: Stephen as you say, a man full of faith in

516
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: the spirit, and Philip pro Chris, nick Nor Timm and

517
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 2: Parmonis and Nicholas from antioch A convert to Judaism. So

518
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: actually those names are actually indicating they're likely Greek as well. Right, yeah,

519
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: so that's really intentional. Right, They're thinking, who can perform

520
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 2: this task to this demographic effectively? And it's like, guys,

521
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 2: just beautiful, so absolutely. And then of course I love

522
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: the Book of Acts, so reading through it with our

523
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: kids right now every night, and just the spirit and

524
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: how often the Spirit is of course leading things. But

525
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: then the community will say it seemed good to us

526
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: and to the Spirit. So I think, and this is

527
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: something that's a weakness of the George because it's not

528
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 2: within his frame of reference. But it's not just because

529
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: even with Baptists this is something it's a drum I

530
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 2: be a lot is. It's not about democracy, it's about christocracy.

531
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 2: So it's not about majority rule, it's not even about consensus.

532
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 2: It is saying, Lord, God, what do you want us

533
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: to do in this situation? And to know each other

534
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: well enough and to be sensitive to what the Spirit

535
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 2: is saving, which might even mean that it's the odd

536
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: voice out. And so these are the questions I raised

537
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: right at the end of the book, like what do

538
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 2: we have spaces for group discussion, for studying the scriptures

539
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: from hearing the scriptures read together? Where are our spaces

540
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: to ask questions and to hear that lone voice, because

541
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: sometimes it's the lone voice that is hearing the spirit

542
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: and the rest of us need to hear that. But

543
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 2: I think what really challenges us, as I've talked more

544
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: about this book in other spaces, is actually how much

545
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: time this takes. Like what I'm actually recommending this is

546
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: not it doesn't say rethinking efficient leadership in the church.

547
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: It's rethinking leadership in the church. Right, So this is

548
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: a whole pair. I like that you said paradigm right,

549
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: it's a paradigm shifter of how much does this actually cost?

550
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: And so this is where again I think it cuts

551
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: to the person and the pew also saying hey, brother,

552
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: hey sister, I'm I'm calling you out for your ninety

553
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: minute a week Christianity. Yeah, that is not the come

554
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 2: and follow me call that I see from Jesus. So

555
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: it is this is for all of us to walk

556
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: in our because every person has this, I think because

557
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 2: of the spirit, the capacity to grow in our exemplary

558
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: authority and even our epistemic authority. And I think there's

559
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 2: like I learned from my kids, right, they teach me things.

560
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: There's things that they're knowledgeable on that I'm not knowledgeable on,

561
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: and I learn from them. And Jesus even says as much, right,

562
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: like learning from the children. And so I just there's

563
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: so much here. I don't want to go off on

564
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: too many tangents, but.

565
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: No, it's fantastic. I think, you know, one thing I

566
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: wanted to draw out to just to kind of give

567
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: a little bit of a sense of that executive leadership,

568
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: because I think the parent child analogy is really helpful there.

569
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: Even more, I think it's hard to think outside of

570
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: a business context here, at least it was for me,

571
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: and so I was struggling against that every once in

572
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,719
Speaker 1: a while I read the book. But when I'd run

573
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: across the parent child thing, I kept going back to

574
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 1: Ephesian six, and I found that text really compelling because

575
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: what you get is you obviously get the instructions to

576
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: the children to obey their parents, and you have this

577
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: is the only command with the promise, But then you

578
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: also have the instruction to the parents, do not exasperate

579
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: your children. And so you see this beautiful like even

580
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: within that executive functioning, Okay, parent, you have an authority,

581
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: but it's a constrained authority. And I think we could

582
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: it while it's not explicit in the text, I would

583
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: say it's because it's a delegated authority, Like there's a

584
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: sense in which we're exercising this under the authority of Christ.

585
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: And we see it more explicitly in the marriage text

586
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: in chapter five, right, but then it's obviously available in

587
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: like Ephesians five, what fifteen through twenty one or something

588
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: like that, right to talk submitting to one obviously in

589
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: those things, and you see this all sort of enveloped

590
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: within being filled by the spirit. And so the spirit

591
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: is guiding these practices, and these are instantiations the husband, wife,

592
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: the child parent, and then the bond servant. Master texts

593
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: are all sort of exams of how this mutual submission looks.

594
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: And you see that sort of mutual curtailment on both

595
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: sides of these equations to say, you actually don't get

596
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: to exercise your authority in whatever way you feel like.

597
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,839
Speaker 1: This is about being led by the spirit into that

598
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: exercise of authority.

599
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: That's a beautiful way of thinking of that, especially in

600
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 2: such a patriarchal context, right where those household codes would

601
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 2: have immediately triggered this top down, unilateral executive And yes,

602
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: the way Paul does flip these things on their head,

603
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: which is quite powerful, and I think too just I

604
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: like that you bring in that parent child in one

605
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: example of the executive authority. And that is something else

606
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: the books trying to help tease out is some of

607
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: the ways we've brought those metaphors in an unhelpful way

608
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: that if we start talking about awe, so the pastor

609
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 2: is kind of like a father. And again, this is

610
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 2: where I would part ways with some of our other

611
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 2: hierarchical brothers and sisters who might use father language, because

612
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 2: I take a pretty literal stance of when Jesus has

613
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 2: called no one on our father, that it's because you

614
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 2: have one father in heaven. And so I lean really

615
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: heavily right into that sibling language, which actually is such

616
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: an equalizing effect, while at the same time recognizing, going

617
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: back to the exemplary bit, I'm going to have older

618
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: siblings who look like Jesus more than I do, and

619
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 2: I want to listen to their counsel in my life,

620
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 2: but it is not binding on my conscience in this

621
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 2: kind of they hold this office of pastor or elder

622
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: or whatnot. No, they they look like Jesus, and that

623
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 2: is winsome to me. And I spirit calls to spirit

624
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 2: and I want their their counsel and correction and ultimately,

625
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: end of the day, I'm going to stand before Jesus

626
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 2: at the end of time and that to give an

627
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 2: account for my own life and how well I've lived

628
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 2: into that. But this is where I would just encourage,

629
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: even just practically right that so often in our language

630
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: we can say, well, as your pastor, you should dot

631
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: dot dot, and I just want to courage people to

632
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: say no, no, no, not as as your brother or

633
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 2: as your sister. I want to encourage you dot dot.

634
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 2: And that also is assuming relationship and trust and vulnerability.

635
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 2: So there's a lot this is. It is kind of

636
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 2: pushing us toward a whole paradigm shift. If we have

637
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 2: tended toward CEO models of church where no one knows

638
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: anyone and it's all about imperative executive authority. So I

639
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,279
Speaker 2: know I've got a tall order here, but hopefully the

640
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: book at least edges us in a conversation we can

641
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: at least start saying, well, what do I mean by

642
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 2: those things? And is that the most God honoring way

643
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: to think about my siblings in the faith? Yeah?

644
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: Because I mean I even think. What came to mind

645
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 1: as I was reading is that passage where Paul says,

646
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: follow me as I follow Christ. Yeah, and the way

647
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: he's sort of not saying follow me right all the time,

648
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: and in every way he's saying, follow me as I

649
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: follow Christ, like to the extent that I am following Christ.

650
00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: That's what you should see in me, and that's what

651
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: you should It's not about me, And I just sort

652
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 1: of love that gesturing. I do want to pivot a

653
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: little bit. I don't want to lose this in the conversation.

654
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: So on Timothy two eleven through sixteen.

655
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: Thank you.

656
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: It's really crucial. So I don't want to lose that.

657
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: So why don't we turn to that so we don't

658
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: run out of time on it?

659
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? Totally. So I know so much has been written

660
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: on this text, right, I do not permit a woman

661
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 2: to teach or have authority over a man, And of

662
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 2: course that's the one verse out of a much larger

663
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: context that you can read up on the listeners can.

664
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: But the biggest point I'd want to have listeners walk

665
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 2: away with is the verse says I do not permit

666
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: a woman to teach or have authority over a man.

667
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 2: What's fascinating to me is we then implicitly assume, well,

668
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 2: men are therefore allowed to have authority over women, like

669
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 2: we just we read in It's I don't know a

670
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: good analogy to think through how that might translate into

671
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: common everyday experience. But like there's a negative and then

672
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 2: all of a sudden we read a positive and then

673
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 2: also make it for all time in all places. And

674
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 2: of course, like the word itself right is really is

675
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: a problematic word in Greek. It's the only version of

676
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 2: alfon taine that that author uses, and Pauline authorship has

677
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: been historically thought to be first Smithy's written by Biblical

678
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 2: scholarships pushed on that quite a bit in recent years,

679
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: but all have to say, regardless of who wrote it,

680
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 2: it's been received as canon. And so the fact that

681
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 2: that scripture says alfin tain when in the rest of

682
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 2: the New Testament we never get that word and the

683
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 2: extra biblical literature that we look at the use of

684
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 2: that word and it has a negative connotation. I think

685
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: going back to the Georgia's categories, it's really helpful. I

686
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: think what's happening there is there's a group of women

687
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: in that context who are exercising an imperative executive authority

688
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 2: that they have no to. The thing is no one does, right.

689
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 2: So this is where I get really frustrated. And what

690
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 2: prompted the project in the first place is again it's

691
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: circling around this word authority, and then we bring all

692
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 2: of our assumptions in with that. And then the further

693
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 2: step we go is and then we try to fight

694
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 2: for women to have equal authority to men in the church.

695
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 2: And so then we're fighting for women to also have

696
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: impaired to authority. And I'm like, I think that's a fiction.

697
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 2: I literally think we are fighting for a fiction. So

698
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: can we instead fight to be the first to submit

699
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,720
Speaker 2: to the other? Can we fight to be the first

700
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 2: to love the other? Can we fight to be in

701
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: those one another capacities to be known by our love

702
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 2: for one another? Not do I get to have equal

703
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 2: authority to you in the church? And so this brings

704
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 2: in even that teaching authority category. We often assume a

705
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 2: higher level of power with teaching authority, and I want

706
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,439
Speaker 2: to say, no, teaching authority. It's a thing, but it's

707
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 2: non executive. It is questionable, and so the question becomes,

708
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 2: do you have spaces to question this? I mean, I

709
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: read the Brians as very extolled for questioning Paul and

710
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 2: not just questioning him, but setting the scriptures in light

711
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: of what he teaches them. And this brings in again

712
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 2: the constructive exhortation by the end of the book is

713
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 2: saying the early Church was a learning community. They would

714
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: sit around over meals and they would talk about what

715
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 2: Jesus had taught and they would say, well, what do

716
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 2: you think about that? How do we apply that now?

717
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: Are you sure about that? Like the words in the

718
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 2: New Testament, they're very didactic, they're very verbal about what

719
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: was happening in these gatherings. And so I think we've

720
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 2: lost a lot since then. We've gained a lot to

721
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 2: write the Church is in a very different age than

722
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 2: it is now that it was in the first century,

723
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 2: but we've also lost a lot, and so how do

724
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: we reclaim some of that learning community, the spirit being

725
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: more center the lordship of Christ, and also the costliness

726
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 2: of our faith.

727
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

728
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 2: So anyway, so that's how I'd come to first symathy too,

729
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 2: is that word. We have a lot of assumptions both

730
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 2: about what the word actually means in our English translations,

731
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 2: but then what's not even there. We then assume a

732
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,919
Speaker 2: positive prescription from a negative prohibition, negative prohibition for women

733
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: at all times in all places, which I think overreaches

734
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 2: the text, and then we make a positive prescription for

735
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: men at all times in all places, which really overreaches

736
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: the text.

737
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is where I felt like when you

738
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: were discussing that. And there's a lot of varying baggage

739
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: right that I could talk about. I'm not going to,

740
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: but I'll just give one example. I think what we

741
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: see sometimes in this text is the growth of inappropriate

742
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: practices based on an interpretation which you know, as you

743
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: talk about in the book the Bible, is God's delegated authority.

744
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: It's this sort of commission of God's authority that's brought

745
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: down to us. But our interpretation of it is not

746
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 1: a delegated authority. It is and I believe you call

747
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: it an epistemic authority or exemplary one of the two.

748
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: Like it's this sort of we're we're taking this delegated

749
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: authority from God and we're trying to understand it, and

750
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: so it's influential, but it isn't authoritative in the same

751
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: sense as God's word is authoritative, because we may not

752
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: be getting it right. And so there has to be

753
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: this grappling of do I believe it? And how do

754
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: I accept this interpretation? And part of the challenge and

755
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 1: I just be interested to hear you talk about this

756
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: when you think about the collective sort of understandings that

757
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: begin to swarm around interpretations like this, the way that

758
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: these social environments now create an authority of their own

759
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: that if you don't believe this particular thing, you are

760
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: now at best a deviant and at worst a heretic. Yeah,

761
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: there are these real life consequences to some of these

762
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: things where it's almost like the group claims what might

763
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 1: be in your framework, like that sort of performative authority, right,

764
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: that there's a if you don't do this, there will

765
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: be consequences sort of vibe to it that I think

766
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: have curtailed real deep investigations of passages like a first

767
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: Timothy two over maybe the last two or three decades

768
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: of scholarship. I don't know whether any of that really

769
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: makes sense.

770
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: But yeah, totally so I think I love it. I

771
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 2: love it. This is such a fun conversation, James. So

772
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: I think this has come and so I have to

773
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 2: give some treatment to this. Right in my what is scripture?

774
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 2: What kind of authority does it have? Then? And understanding

775
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 2: what is inspiration? How do we think about what the

776
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 2: text actually is and what it is doing? And then

777
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 2: the interpretation of those texts, and then the interpreting communities

778
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 2: of those texts, and so this question around, For instance,

779
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 2: inerrancy becomes one of those shibbaleths. Right, So if you

780
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 2: don't hold this particular version of inerrancy, then you are

781
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: on the Alps. You are no longer an insider. You

782
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: can't have any way in this community. So the consequences

783
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: are stark. And what I'm hopeful again, and I could

784
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 2: just be naive, but my hopes for this book is

785
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: that it gives people language of resistance yea to feel

786
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 2: empowered in their own agency to say, actually, I don't

787
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: I don't have to believe that, and not only I

788
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 2: don't have to believe that, but my Bible study doesn't

789
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 2: have to believe that. And we can talk about these things. Now,

790
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 2: this is vulnerable, right because and I teach this in

791
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 2: my classroom, right like students we're talking about the Trinity,

792
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: for instance, I we sit under the mystery of this Trinity,

793
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: and we're gonna use language as best we can. But

794
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 2: it's like trying to have a glass to hold an ocean, right,

795
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: But we have the gift of these resources from scripture

796
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 2: and from church tradition that have given us this language

797
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: and these creeds to talk about the try and God

798
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 2: of the universe. But we're gonna misspeak because we are

799
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: creature and God is creator. And so in all of this,

800
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 2: like I want people to know I am a fallible

801
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 2: epistemic authority, and I'm actually I'm better for it. I'm

802
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: better for it in knowing that I am because it

803
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 2: allows my siblings to speak into my life and an

804
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 2: epistemic humility. If you want to talk about another category

805
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: that's very important in this, right is we don't know

806
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: it all. And so yeah, I think you're exactly right.

807
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: The costs are high, but I hope that this gives

808
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 2: people a resource to say, ah, I'm not crazy, and

809
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: it's okay to disagree. And I do stand before the

810
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 2: authority of the living God, not the authority of some

811
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: artificial office or construct or category. Mistake. Ah, it's okay,

812
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 2: because I do raise this in the book, that we

813
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 2: can have this kind of existential paralysis if we think,

814
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: if I question this office, the person that's holding this office,

815
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: that my kind of existential state is in crisis, or

816
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 2: this eschatological judgment. I'm on the chopping block, and I

817
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 2: want to help quell some of those fears and say,

818
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: I just don't think that's scriptural. I don't think that's

819
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 2: how Jesus wants us to operate. And the Lord casts

820
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 2: out the spirit of fear. And so let's feel more

821
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,919
Speaker 2: confident in our in what Christ has done. Let's start there,

822
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 2: and what Christ has done on the cross and in

823
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: his resurrection and in his ascension, he has sent us

824
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 2: his own spirit of adoption. And that is the ground

825
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: on which we stand and say Abba, Father, and we

826
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 2: get to say to one another brother and sister, and

827
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 2: then we get to look to Jesus now and for

828
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 2: old time as we grow in our own exemplary understanding

829
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: of looking more and more like him, And so I

830
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 2: just want to push against fear that can so easily

831
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 2: be a paralytic in these conversations and say that is

832
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: not the God we serve.

833
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: Well, let me say, I think from my perspective, I

834
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 1: think you accomplish that. And so my encouragement would be

835
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,879
Speaker 1: for folks to go out and get this. I think

836
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:57,280
Speaker 1: that anytime I've taught on one Timothy two, these passages

837
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: that we're talking about, it always ends up in some

838
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: sort of like minor argument. And my counsel to everybody

839
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 1: that I talked to about that passage is just remember

840
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,879
Speaker 1: there's a lot that's unclear here, but what is clear

841
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: is Romans twelve to ten out do one another and

842
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: showing honor. You're not missing that one up. Roman's twelve

843
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: ten is very clear. So let's let the clear passages

844
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: sort of help us as we approach the unclear do

845
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: one another in showing honor, like pretty straightforward. So but

846
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: I really we got to close this off. But I

847
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: love the book. I really appreciate you being on today

848
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 1: and just encourage people to go and get it. The

849
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: book is a theology of authority Rethinking Leadership in the Church.

850
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: It's published by Baker, but you can also get it

851
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: on Amazon or wherever books are sold. I'll have the

852
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: link in the show notes and just encourage everybody out

853
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: there to go grab this read it. It's really helpful.

854
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: And one of the things I really loved about it

855
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: is if you want to I wouldn't suggest this, but

856
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: you could. She gives you give these handles sort of

857
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 1: at the end in your and it like, it's so nice.

858
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 1: When I was going back through preparing for the interview

859
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 1: after i'd read it, because I read it a month

860
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: or so ago when we booked the interview, and then

861
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: I was going back through today and I'm like, okay,

862
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,760
Speaker 1: let me just refresh. I went back to those italisized

863
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Speaker 1: little points at the end of each chapter and I

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Speaker 1: was like, this is super helpful. So thank you, very readable,

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Speaker 1: very approachable, extremely helpful. Encourage you get the book. And again, Christa,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: James, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely all right, everybody, Well, we will catch you on

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Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care. I just

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Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the team at

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Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking

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00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll

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Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.

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Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.