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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr.

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Speaker 1: James Spencer. I'm joined today by Dr. Jonathan Lehman. He

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Speaker 1: is the president of Nine Marks. which is an organization

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Speaker 1: that helps pastors and churches. And I can let him

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about that. But he's also

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Speaker 1: the author of a book called Political Church, the Local

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Speaker 1: Assembly as Embassy of Christ's Rule. And that's going to

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Speaker 1: be the focus of our conversation today is what does

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Speaker 1: it mean for the church to be political? This is

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Speaker 1: part of our theology and faith series that we're doing

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Speaker 1: on Thinking Christian. And so happy to welcome you today, Jonathan.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for being here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, James. I appreciate it. Glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to talk a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: Nine Marks before we get started?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, happy to. Nine Marks, as you said, exists to

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Speaker 2: help pastors build healthy churches. We have a website. We

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Speaker 2: do books, lots of books, study guides, podcasts, events. And

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Speaker 2: our target audience is pastors. That's who we're trying to reach.

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Speaker 2: And the goal is to help pastors get more of

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Speaker 2: a biblical vision of the church. Churches have been dominated

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Speaker 2: by kind of best business practices think, you know, for

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Speaker 2: the last 50, 60 years, they've become a little more

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Speaker 2: consumeristic and we exist to say, Hey guys, you know what?

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Speaker 2: The Bible actually speaks to this and it gives us

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Speaker 2: everything we need. In fact, it's sufficient for what churches

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Speaker 2: should be, uh, and do the most important things about

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Speaker 2: your church or the things that it shares in common

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Speaker 2: with every other church and those things that are in

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Speaker 2: the Bible. And so that's, that's what we spent a

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Speaker 2: lot of time talking about.

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Speaker 1: Very cool. Um, Your book on political church is largely

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Speaker 1: about the church. And so I guess I'm wondering, maybe

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Speaker 1: we should have a little definition of terms.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: First, you know, when you talk about, we'll start with

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Speaker 1: the second term and then go to the first. When

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Speaker 1: you talk about the church, what are you talking about there?

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Speaker 2: I am, as the subtitle talks about, the local, what

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Speaker 2: you have in front of that, the local assembly as

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Speaker 2: embassy of Christ's world. I am talking about the local church,

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Speaker 2: not the church universal that Jesus says he will build

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Speaker 2: in Matthew 18. I'm talking about the church local that

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Speaker 2: he says addresses the believer in Matthew 18 and in

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Speaker 2: many other places in the New Testament. I'm talking about

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Speaker 2: that covenanted gathering of saints, covenanted gathering of believers who

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Speaker 2: affirm one another in the gospel and declare the gospel

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Speaker 2: through the ordinances and through preaching. So that assembly is

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Speaker 2: what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: Really helpful. And then when you think about politics or

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Speaker 1: the political, we've had some guests on to talk about,

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Speaker 1: you know, political in a more public life sort of

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Speaker 1: way versus, let's say, participation in American government through things

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Speaker 1: like lobbying or voting or what have you. Where do

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Speaker 1: you sort of thread that needle when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: politics or the political?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. You're right to pull onto that thread because

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Speaker 2: it It could sound like I'm talking about this when

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Speaker 2: really I'm talking about that, right?

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Speaker 1: Right, right.

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Speaker 2: I'm not talking about political as partisan. I'm not talking

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Speaker 2: about political as an institution or an institution of the state. Okay.

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Speaker 2: I am talking, I am using that word political a

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Speaker 2: little more functionally, you might say, rather than a form,

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Speaker 2: a little more functionally. Okay. And I'm speaking as under

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Speaker 2: the rule of God. In Christ. And I argue in

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Speaker 2: that sense that all of life is, in some sense, political.

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Speaker 2: All of life is to be under the rule of

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Speaker 2: Christ and organized by his commandments on us in all

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Speaker 2: the ways he calls us to live out our lives

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Speaker 2: with one another. Right? And so the local church exemplifies precisely—

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Speaker 2: It's meant to exemplify.

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Speaker 1: Good distinction.

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Speaker 2: It's meant, the blueprints.

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Speaker 1: In its ideal expression. The blueprints. Right.

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Speaker 2: Are to exemplify what a holy nation, a heavenly kingdom,

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Speaker 2: using more political language here, right? Yeah. And as Thomas

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Speaker 2: Hobbes puts it, the kingdom of Christ is not a

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Speaker 2: mere metaphor, Hobbes' words. It's a metaphorical kingdom. No, it

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Speaker 2: really is a kingdom. Now, it's not a landed kingdom.

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Speaker 2: It's a kingdom whose source is not in this world,

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Speaker 2: but it is a real kingdom. We really are a

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Speaker 2: holy nation. And the church is to exemplify in that

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Speaker 2: respect what a true politics should look like as an

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Speaker 2: example for the nation's.

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Speaker 1: So when we think about it, one of the areas

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Speaker 1: I've thought about this in, and I'm not sure, we'll

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Speaker 1: see what you think, but the household codes, bond servants, masters,

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Speaker 1: the weak and the strong argument, Romans 14 and 15,

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Speaker 1: you have these statements that are, look, these people These

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Speaker 1: people belong to Christ, and so you're to serve them

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Speaker 1: in this manner. These people belong to Christ, and so

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Speaker 1: you're to treat them in a particular way. You know,

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Speaker 1: the weak shouldn't judge the strong. The strong shouldn't lord

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Speaker 1: over the weak. You know, you have these reciprocations because

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Speaker 1: we're all under the authority of Christ, and there's an

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Speaker 1: ownership claim there that now conditions behavior toward other people.

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Speaker 1: Is that an aspect of what you'd think of when

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Speaker 1: you think about politics? uh, as this sort of interrelating

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Speaker 1: that is underneath the authority of God, or is that

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Speaker 1: pushing it too far?

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Speaker 2: Well, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're exactly right. Uh,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking of, I think of Philemon, right? Um, he says, you, you,

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Speaker 2: you mean you refer to the household codes and so forth,

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Speaker 2: but you know, here, here's another example of the same

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Speaker 2: sort of thing. Um, For this, Paul says to Philemon,

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Speaker 2: for this perhaps is why he was part of you

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Speaker 2: for a while, that you might have him back forever,

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Speaker 2: no longer as a bondservant, but more than a bondservant,

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Speaker 2: as a beloved brother. Huh. Okay, so now is Paul

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Speaker 2: in that statement? What's going on? He's telling Onesimus to

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Speaker 2: go back. He needs to go back because there is

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Speaker 2: a There is a requirement on him morally, legally, to

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Speaker 2: go back and submit himself to his master Philemon. But

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Speaker 2: at the same time, so there's kingdom of this world

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Speaker 2: realities at play that he's addressing and asking Onesimus to

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Speaker 2: go back to Philemon. At the same time, he's saying

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Speaker 2: to Philemon, there's kingdom of heaven realities, think dual citizenship,

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Speaker 2: kingdom of heaven realities that are primary and shape the

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Speaker 2: nature of your relationship with Onesimus.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He is a beloved brother, first and foremost. And so,

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Speaker 2: oh yes, okay, so you're still dealing with the kingdom

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Speaker 2: of this world realities and we've got to deal with those, fine. Right.

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Speaker 2: But what's determinative for a Christian like, for a Christian

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Speaker 2: like a master like Philemon is to treat his slave Onesimus,

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Speaker 2: or his bond servant Onesimus, according to the gospel. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: it changes everything. All right.

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Speaker 1: Do you, Do you see that as an aspect of

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Speaker 1: what you mean by embassy? And maybe that's a concept

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Speaker 1: we should kind of dig into a little bit. As

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Speaker 1: I've studied some of this, I've been using the term resituate.

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Speaker 1: And so what I see Paul doing often is he's

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Speaker 1: allowing these sort of systems and structures that are already

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Speaker 1: in place, something like bond servant master or what have you,

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Speaker 1: And he's saying, we don't need to change the practice.

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Speaker 1: Or in other words, we don't need to abolish the structure,

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Speaker 1: but we do need to resituate it under the reign

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Speaker 1: of God. And so here's what this looks like. When

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Speaker 1: you talk about the embassy, right, it strikes me that

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Speaker 1: you're doing something a little bit similar, but also similar.

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Speaker 1: sort of framing the church as a whole different kind

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Speaker 1: of community. And so maybe we should talk through what

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Speaker 1: is that embassy language that you're using and what implications

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Speaker 1: might you tease out with that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So the first thing you said, yes, there is

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Speaker 2: a resituation. 1 Corinthians 7 is another great set of

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Speaker 2: examples of that resituation. Jesus and the temple tax.

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Speaker 1: Another great one.

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Speaker 2: Should the kings of the earth make their sons Are

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Speaker 2: the sons free from the paying the tax? No, the

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Speaker 2: sons are free. He said, okay, but so you're free, Peter,

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Speaker 2: not to pay the tax because you're a son of

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Speaker 2: the king of heaven.

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Speaker 1: Because you're a son.

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Speaker 2: So as not to offend them, he says, go ahead

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Speaker 2: and pay the tax.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So the tax is still there. You got to pay it.

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Speaker 2: We're still in this world. But you know what? It's

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Speaker 2: rain is over. It doesn't finally determine you, identify you.

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Speaker 2: You're a son. You're free. You don't got to pay

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Speaker 2: the tax, but go ahead and do it. Same sort

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Speaker 2: of thing going on there. The church is an embassy.

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Speaker 2: What is that? Oh, gosh. I mean, OK, that's the

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Speaker 2: whole that's the whole book.

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Speaker 1: That's the whole book.

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Speaker 2: I understand. So maybe maybe jump in.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's say when we think of an embassy today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.

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Speaker 1: We often think of a location in another country that

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Speaker 1: is representing like, let's say I can go to the U.S.

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Speaker 1: embassy in Germany. And as an American citizen, that's functionally U.S.

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Speaker 1: land that I can go to and sort of get

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Speaker 1: assistance as an American citizen. Is that the sense, the

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Speaker 1: basic sense you're using, embassy?

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Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. Age 19, 20, junior year abroad, Jonathan Lehman,

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Speaker 2: in Brussels, Belgium. Passport expires. Go down to the U.S.

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Speaker 2: embassy in Brussels, Belgium. Right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so you walk up to it, American soldier, American flag.

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Speaker 2: You go inside, people speaking American-sounding English. You hand them

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Speaker 2: your passport. They're like, oh, it's expired. And you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: can I get a new one? And they turn off

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Speaker 2: the computer. And in short order, they send you a

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Speaker 2: new passport, right? That embassy didn't make me a citizen.

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Speaker 2: I was a citizen by birth. But it possessed an

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Speaker 2: authority to declare me a citizen, right? To give me

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Speaker 2: the passport. And when you step into this embassy, you

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Speaker 2: sort of alluded to it, James. You said land, but

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Speaker 2: it's like soil. You're stepping onto American soil.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Let's just start right there. How does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: I'm in Brussels, Belgium. How's that American soil? Soil is nothing.

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Speaker 2: Soil is dirt. It's meaningless until we assign significance to it.

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Speaker 2: This is my soil, right? How does soil... gain significance. Well,

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Speaker 2: an authority has to come in and, as it were,

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Speaker 2: consecrate that soil. This, by the authority of the United

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Speaker 2: States government, this is ours. This is American soil, right? Yep.

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Speaker 2: And then that becomes the United States. Now, the embassies

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Speaker 2: that we're talking about right now represent one kingdom inside

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Speaker 2: of another kingdom across geographic space. So you get in

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Speaker 2: the airplane, you fly over, and here we are in Brussels, Belgium,

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Speaker 2: representing the United States. Okay, what is the local church?

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Speaker 2: When you step into the gathered local church, where two

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Speaker 2: or three are gathered in my name, there am I

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Speaker 2: among them. What does that mean? Does that mean Jesus

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Speaker 2: is like Matthew 18 and 20? Does that mean he's

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Speaker 2: like floating in the room, a mystical fog? Jesus is here.

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Speaker 2: Can you feel him? Is that what's going on? Well, no.

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Speaker 2: What he's saying is they represent me and my authority.

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Speaker 2: Just in the context of giving the keys of the kingdom,

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Speaker 2: binding on earth what's bound in heaven, loosing on earth

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Speaker 2: what's loosed in heaven. And then for where two or

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Speaker 2: three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.

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Speaker 2: They represent me. They speak for me. They bear my authority.

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Speaker 2: This is my embassy in this gathering. When we step

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Speaker 2: into that gathering, we are stepping into, get this, the

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Speaker 2: geography of Christ's kingdom. The temporary, proleptic, shadowy geography of

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Speaker 2: Christ's kingdom.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: It shows up for once a week for... hour and

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Speaker 2: a half, two hours, however long your church gathers. You know, so,

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Speaker 2: you know, we understand Israel is a land with actual space,

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Speaker 2: and then Jesus gives the great commission where his disciples

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Speaker 2: go into all nations making disciples, and so there is

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Speaker 2: no land in our present kingdom. That's true, but there's

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Speaker 2: a sense in which when we gather together, we become

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Speaker 2: the temporary proleptic geography of Christ's kingdom to declare the

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Speaker 2: king's law, the king's mandates, the king's judgments. We are

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Speaker 2: the people of the king as we as we baptize

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Speaker 2: one another into his name, as we take the supper

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Speaker 2: and affirm one another in his name and so forth.

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Speaker 2: That is where embassies of heaven show up on planet Earth. Amazing, right? So,

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Speaker 2: you know, do you remember that you watched Tom and

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Speaker 2: Jerry as a kid? Oh, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever see those episodes where like Tom dies

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Speaker 2: and he goes up an escalator?

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The translucent cat. Yes.

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Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Well, what we get in Matthew's gospel

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Speaker 2: is we get the kingdom of heaven, not going up

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Speaker 2: the escalator, but coming down. All right. So Jesus comes down.

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Speaker 2: The kingdom of God is among you. The kingdom of heaven,

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Speaker 2: the rule of heaven is in Christ. It's embodied, personified

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Speaker 2: in Christ. Anybody else? Well, anybody united to Christ? So

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Speaker 2: that when he says, whatever you bind on earth will

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Speaker 2: be bound on heaven, whatever you loose on earth will

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Speaker 2: be loosed on heaven. What you're getting at that moment

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Speaker 2: is kind of a merger, an access point between heaven

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Speaker 2: and earth. You have this embassy of heaven coming down.

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Speaker 2: And that should change how you think about your gathered

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Speaker 2: local church. This is not something you can do on

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Speaker 2: the internet. This is not something you can do as

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Speaker 2: you're listening to your favorite podcast preacher. Right. This is

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Speaker 2: something we do every week as we gather together. We represent–

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Speaker 2: you know. God did not choose Harvard University Philosophy Department,

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Speaker 2: United Nations, Supreme Court to represent him on planet Earth.

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Speaker 2: He chose Brother Bob, Sister Sue, Deacon Darnell down at

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Speaker 2: Bumble Stew Baptist to represent him on planet Earth through

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Speaker 2: these embassies of heaven.

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Speaker 1: So– When you think about it geographically and you're entering

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Speaker 1: into that local church body, that's a constrained presence, right?

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Speaker 1: It's got four walls, maybe some more, but it's a

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Speaker 1: locked place. How does the embassy analogy extend beyond those

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Speaker 1: walls as the people of the church, the members of

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Speaker 1: that body actually go out into the public space?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. I do think that something special happens in

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Speaker 2: the gathering. I think it's in the gathering that the

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Speaker 2: authority of the church is exercised.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think we bind and loose in the gathering. So

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Speaker 2: I'm going to answer your question, but you've got to

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Speaker 2: let me say a little bit more about the gathering

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Speaker 2: before I get.

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Speaker 1: To the scattering. No, that's perfect. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Is that all right? So let's think about authority for

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Speaker 2: a second. And I think evangelical struggle, even Protestants today

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Speaker 2: generally struggle with that idea. What is church authority? We

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Speaker 2: understand biblical authority, right? We On the whole, as Protestants

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Speaker 2: and evangelicals, we get biblical authority. It's supreme. It's legislative.

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Speaker 2: It's what God says. It binds us. We get that.

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Speaker 2: We disagree on what it means, but we understand it

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Speaker 2: binds us. Right. Okay, what have Protestants meant historically when

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Speaker 2: we talk about church authority? What exactly is church authority? Well,

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Speaker 2: I think we've got to look at the keys of

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Speaker 2: the kingdom, as we've talked about. And what I think

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Speaker 2: it is, is it's a— The keys of the kingdom

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Speaker 2: give us authority to declare the who and the what

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Speaker 2: of the gospel. The who and the what of the gospel.

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Speaker 2: What's the true confession? Who do people say that I am?

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Speaker 2: Some say Moses. Some say John the Baptist. Others lie.

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Speaker 2: You're the Christ. That's right. Father in heaven told you that.

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Speaker 2: This is Matthew 16, right? And you're Peter and I'll

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Speaker 2: rock and build my church. Gates of hell shall not

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Speaker 2: prevail against it. Whatever you bind on earth will be

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Speaker 2: in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed

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Speaker 2: on earth. And there it's singular. Whatever you, Peter. Okay, so.

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Speaker 2: It's the what of the gospel. What's a true confession

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Speaker 2: of who Jesus is? And then it's the who of

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Speaker 2: the gospel, Matthew 18, right? In this church discipline scenario.

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Speaker 2: And so the church authority is all about affirming, making

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Speaker 2: formal declarations on the who and the what of the gospel,

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Speaker 2: confessions and confessors. And whether you're Anglican, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, you

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Speaker 2: can agree with what I'm saying. Now, we disagree a

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Speaker 2: little bit on who holds the keys. Is it the bishop?

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Speaker 2: Is it the Presbytery? Is it the Congregationalist? Fine, we

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Speaker 2: can leave that for another day. But we all agree

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Speaker 2: on the basic of what the authority is. It's this

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Speaker 2: formal declaration. That's the gospel. That's right. And that's a believer.

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Speaker 2: That's right. And that's an authority we exercise when we

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Speaker 2: gather together. So, you know, let me put it this way, James.

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Speaker 2: Let's suppose you say to your next-door neighbor on Tuesday afternoon,

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Speaker 2: here's what the gospel is. Jesus died and rose again

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Speaker 2: for the forgiveness of sins, right? Does that phrase that

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Speaker 2: you just said on Tuesday afternoon to your next-door neighbor,

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Speaker 2: Jesus died on the cross, rose again for the forgiveness

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Speaker 2: of sins, does that come bearing biblical authority? Yeah. Yes, right. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that bears– but now let's suppose you step into your

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Speaker 2: pulpit on Sunday morning and you say the exact same words.

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Speaker 2: Jesus died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins.

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Speaker 2: Does it bear biblical authority? Yes. Okay. But I would

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Speaker 2: say it also bears an additional– layer of authority in

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Speaker 2: that moment. It bears an ecclesial authority, a church authority.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: What, what, what exactly is that? Well, that is the,

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Speaker 2: when you say it in the congregation, the context of

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Speaker 2: your congregation, and everybody nods their heads, all the members

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Speaker 2: nod their heads and say, yes, that, that's right. We

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Speaker 2: believe that. That's, that's our gospel. You are bound together

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Speaker 2: around that gospel. It is a public binding, affirming, hey, I,

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Speaker 2: city of, you know, Washington, D.C., where I am right now,

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Speaker 2: hear ye, hear ye. We citizens of Capitol Hill Baptist

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Speaker 2: Church agree that this is our gospel to gather. And

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Speaker 2: that's the nature of a... And we are all baptized

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Speaker 2: members of it. So that when we gather in Christ's name,

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Speaker 2: he's here with us, and we're speaking for him. So....

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Speaker 1: Before you go forward, let me just ask a couple

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Speaker 1: of follow-ups there. So when you say our gospel, I

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Speaker 1: want to make sure people aren't hearing you say, which

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Speaker 1: I know you're not saying, it's our gospel and not

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Speaker 1: your gospel, right? Our gospel is the gospel has a

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Speaker 1: claim on us. It's the one that has a claim

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Speaker 1: on us, sort of that idea. And so it's not

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Speaker 1: our Baptist gospel, our Presbyterian gospel. It is the gospel

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Speaker 1: message that we are owned by and that we are proclaiming.

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Speaker 1: that kind of idea.

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Speaker 2: Well, and we understand that we have authority to declare.

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Speaker 1: And we have, yeah, we have authority to declare. And

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Speaker 1: that authority then, would you say that it needs to

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Speaker 1: be the church's authority to a large extent, maybe not

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Speaker 1: to the full extent, but to a large extent comes

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Speaker 1: from through the alignment of church teaching with biblical authority

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Speaker 1: so that it is a delegated authority that's given to

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Speaker 1: the church and that needs to be, um, aligned in.

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Speaker 2: Order to be legitimate. I use a slightly different term

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Speaker 2: than delegate. I use the word deputized, but, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: but exactly what you're saying. Uh, a delegated authority is

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Speaker 2: that I find in the book is, is any, um, Authority,

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Speaker 2: I give a person to fulfill a particular function, right?

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Speaker 2: So the president assigns the secretary of state the ability

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Speaker 2: to govern the department of state, right? Whereas deputized authority,

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Speaker 2: I'm not giving you a function. I'm actually giving you

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Speaker 2: a role to be a substitute for me, the kind

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Speaker 2: of authority that a pastor would give– I'm sorry, a

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Speaker 2: president would give to an ambassador. So Mr. Ambassador, you

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Speaker 2: can go sign to treaties– In my name. I'm not

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Speaker 2: just giving you a function. I'm actually giving you a face.

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Speaker 2: You're wearing my mask as the president to go sign

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Speaker 2: that tree or power of attorney. You can go sign

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Speaker 2: checks on my name. That's the authority the church possesses

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Speaker 2: to actually speak in Christ's name. That's astonishing. So every

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Speaker 2: authority on earth, parent, government, has a delegated authority. But

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Speaker 2: what's amazing about the nation of Israel, the authority they

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Speaker 2: have who wear God's name, and the authority of our

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Speaker 2: local congregations, where two or three are gathered in my

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Speaker 2: name and baptized in my name and they gather in

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Speaker 2: my name and go out for the sake of the name.

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Speaker 2: They possess what I'm calling this deputized, ambassador-like authority to

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Speaker 2: make declarations on behalf of God. That's the authority we're

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Speaker 2: given with the keys of the kingdom. Binding and loosing

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Speaker 2: on earth was bound and loosed in heaven. Gotcha. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so we affirm that. Now, back to your question a

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Speaker 2: minute ago, a few minutes ago. Okay, that's what happens

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Speaker 2: when we gather. What happens when we scatter? Will we

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Speaker 2: go out? You might say kind of like ambassadors. Sort

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Speaker 2: of like Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, right? It's

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Speaker 2: about ambassadors for Christ declaring a message of reconciliation. So

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Speaker 2: we come to the gathering, we're affirmed in one another,

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Speaker 2: we're affirmed in the gospel, and then we're trained and

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Speaker 2: equipped and built up, and then we're sent out. And

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Speaker 2: that is, I don't do this in political church, but

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Speaker 2: another book I wrote called How the Nations Rage, I

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Speaker 2: talk about the way that that is a political threat.

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Speaker 2: For the church to send out its gospel message is

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Speaker 2: a kind of political threat to the nations. Not the

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Speaker 2: threat of an invader. It's the threat of a virus

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Speaker 2: or termites, something that goes in and chews away at

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Speaker 2: the idol holding up the foundation of a regime or

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Speaker 2: a marketplace as people's minds and hearts are changed until

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Speaker 2: that regime collapses, right? So the Chinese Communist Party is

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Speaker 2: wrong to be threatened by local churches and their pastors

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Speaker 2: thinking that we're going to somehow overtake China. But in

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Speaker 2: a way, they're right to recognize that the gospel of

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Speaker 2: a crucified and resurrected Christ will ultimately undermine their regime,

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Speaker 2: not by direct action, but by indirect action in changing

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Speaker 2: the hearts of the people.

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Speaker 1: Do you see that? So part of what I've thought

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Speaker 1: through when I think about Governing entities like the United

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Speaker 1: States government or the People's Republic of China or what

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Speaker 1: have you. Part of the challenge there is that the

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Speaker 1: church has to recognize where the authority that these governments

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Speaker 1: have been given starts and stops. And so, but what

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Speaker 1: ends up happening most of the time with these government,

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Speaker 1: I would say all the time with these governments, no

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Speaker 1: need to square code it. They go beyond the authority

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Speaker 1: that they've been given and they refuse to acknowledge that.

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Speaker 1: where they've been given the authority from. And so the

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Speaker 1: church is in part a threat because what it's saying

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Speaker 1: is you're not what you think you are.

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Speaker 2: Well said.

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Speaker 1: And you're not as authoritative as you are. Your authority

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Speaker 1: derives from something you're not acknowledging. And so in that

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Speaker 1: is part of the threat, at least.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Carl F.H. Henry said the church's job with respect

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Speaker 2: to the state is to declare the standards by which

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Speaker 2: the nations and their kings will be judged. Yeah. Declare

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Speaker 2: the standards by which the nation and its kings will

429
00:24:37,910 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 2: be judged. Think of Herod saying, it's not right. I'm sorry.

430
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 2: John the Baptist saying to Herod, it's not right for

431
00:24:44,780 --> 00:24:46,260
Speaker 2: you to have your brother's wife, right?

432
00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

433
00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:50,260
Speaker 2: Or Jonah and Nineveh and the king of Nineveh. Or

434
00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: Daniel to Nebuchadnezzar. Jonah. I mean, Joseph, right? So we

435
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 2: declare the standards by which the nations will be judged.

436
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,010
Speaker 2: And part of that is telling the nations its limits.

437
00:25:04,890 --> 00:25:08,810
Speaker 2: You have no jurisdiction here. No, you may not do that.

438
00:25:10,270 --> 00:25:17,929
Speaker 2: And insofar as there's something post-fall natively idolatrous to the

439
00:25:17,970 --> 00:25:23,649
Speaker 2: human heart, so there is something natively idolatrous to the

440
00:25:23,730 --> 00:25:28,020
Speaker 2: ambitions of kings and princes and governors. There is a

441
00:25:28,340 --> 00:25:37,550
Speaker 2: latent trajectory towards beastliness in government. Yeah. Because I think

442
00:25:37,570 --> 00:25:42,130
Speaker 2: there's a latent trajectory towards idolatry in the heart of man.

443
00:25:43,710 --> 00:25:49,820
Speaker 2: So God will sometimes constrain that idolatrous trajectory in individuals

444
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 2: and that beastly trajectory in governments. He constrains it by

445
00:25:53,140 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: common grace, and sometimes he constrains it by special grace.

446
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,859
Speaker 2: But there is that trajectory.

447
00:25:59,859 --> 00:26:00,100
Speaker 1: Yeah.

448
00:26:00,140 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 2: There is an empire of like trajectory that you see

449
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 2: throughout the old Testament.

450
00:26:05,820 --> 00:26:06,020
Speaker 1: Yes.

451
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,580
Speaker 2: Um, and Samuel warns that you're sure you want a King.

452
00:26:11,260 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: He's going to take all your wives. He's going to

453
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,869
Speaker 2: take all your horses and field. I'm not sure you

454
00:26:16,890 --> 00:26:22,590
Speaker 2: want this. Right. So it's, and then we can talk

455
00:26:22,630 --> 00:26:25,270
Speaker 2: about revelation, James and the beast and what that really means.

456
00:26:25,690 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, I think, As

457
00:26:28,859 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: you're describing this, what comes to mind is that the

458
00:26:31,180 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: nations are, we have an odd relationship with the nations.

459
00:26:36,260 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: Because on the one hand, we accept their authority as

460
00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:43,619
Speaker 1: an authority given them by God.

461
00:26:43,859 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: Romans 13. Right.

462
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: But on the whole other side of it, we sit

463
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: back and say, but we also know that these aren't lasting.

464
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,330
Speaker 1: They're not as stable as we'd like them to be.

465
00:26:54,980 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: And as ordered as they might appear. they're always bending

466
00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:05,030
Speaker 1: away from God's will. It's inevitable. I think back on

467
00:27:05,050 --> 00:27:10,350
Speaker 1: Genesis 15, 16, not Genesis 15, 6, but Genesis 15, 16,

468
00:27:10,350 --> 00:27:13,810
Speaker 1: where God tells Abraham that he's going to bring his

469
00:27:13,890 --> 00:27:16,530
Speaker 1: people or he's going to give the Israelites the land

470
00:27:16,590 --> 00:27:19,149
Speaker 1: after 400 years because the sin of the Amorites is

471
00:27:19,210 --> 00:27:19,930
Speaker 1: not yet complete.

472
00:27:20,250 --> 00:27:21,150
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

473
00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:24,030
Speaker 1: And you sort of think about what that implies. It's

474
00:27:24,090 --> 00:27:26,550
Speaker 1: that the sin just keeps building up, building up.

475
00:27:26,590 --> 00:27:27,150
Speaker 2: There's a trajectory.

476
00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:30,630
Speaker 1: And God is going to forbear it for a while,

477
00:27:31,609 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: but not forever. And so you see these things sort

478
00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: of bending away. And so there's an interesting way in

479
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:46,730
Speaker 1: which we are confronting the nations in almost a battlefield

480
00:27:46,790 --> 00:27:47,890
Speaker 1: sort of metaphor there.

481
00:27:48,130 --> 00:27:50,710
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right.

482
00:27:52,090 --> 00:27:54,949
Speaker 1: Well, let's dive into Revelation a little bit. That'd be

483
00:27:54,990 --> 00:27:55,470
Speaker 1: kind of fun.

484
00:27:55,490 --> 00:27:58,100
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if I'm ready. I'm

485
00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: not prepared to do that.

486
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,530
Speaker 1: No, I did have a couple more questions on. So

487
00:28:07,530 --> 00:28:10,649
Speaker 1: you talk, I think, in the book about the Bible

488
00:28:10,690 --> 00:28:14,210
Speaker 1: as constitution, not as case law. This sort of idea

489
00:28:14,270 --> 00:28:17,810
Speaker 1: that the Bible has this different function for us.

490
00:28:17,910 --> 00:28:18,230
Speaker 2: Yeah.

491
00:28:18,270 --> 00:28:20,350
Speaker 1: So help us understand that a little bit, because I

492
00:28:20,369 --> 00:28:22,670
Speaker 1: thought that was a really helpful and powerful analogy.

493
00:28:24,140 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, what is a constitution? It doesn't give

494
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,619
Speaker 2: you tax law. It gives you the structures and the

495
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,510
Speaker 2: institutions that make your tax law, right? Yeah. It's rules

496
00:28:32,530 --> 00:28:37,889
Speaker 2: for making the rules. And the government does— I' m sorry, the

497
00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:41,030
Speaker 2: Bible doesn't prescribe a particular form of government for us.

498
00:28:41,070 --> 00:28:42,730
Speaker 2: I think it has certain trajectories. I think it has

499
00:28:42,750 --> 00:28:46,500
Speaker 2: certain innuendos. We can talk about that, but it doesn't

500
00:28:46,580 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: prescribe formally a certain form of government or a particular

501
00:28:49,540 --> 00:28:54,220
Speaker 2: set of laws. Yeah. we get no questions about Old

502
00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:57,219
Speaker 2: Testament and New Testament and old, you know, natural law.

503
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: But let's just, let me just put that on the

504
00:28:59,180 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: shelf for now and just say it doesn't prescribe our,

505
00:29:04,660 --> 00:29:07,130
Speaker 2: it doesn't even prescribe our murder code. You know, I

506
00:29:07,670 --> 00:29:10,470
Speaker 2: was recently on a Maryland jury on a murder trial

507
00:29:11,130 --> 00:29:15,450
Speaker 2: and in the Maryland jury murder trial, you know, it was,

508
00:29:16,050 --> 00:29:20,810
Speaker 2: it's common, it's common law and degrees of murder and

509
00:29:20,850 --> 00:29:26,380
Speaker 2: ways of classifying degrees of murder and first-degree murder being premeditated,

510
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: requires a premeditated form of indictment. Whereas if we were

511
00:29:33,460 --> 00:29:39,210
Speaker 2: in Germany and I was on a murder jury trial

512
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: it's not common law. There's not degrees of murder. There's

513
00:29:43,540 --> 00:29:48,460
Speaker 2: no talk of premeditation. Instead, it's killing with certain extenuating circumstances.

514
00:29:50,060 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: So the way– the law against murder in Germany– is

515
00:29:53,340 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 2: different is institutionalized is different than the way the law

516
00:29:56,180 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: against mercy in Maryland. My, my, my jurisdiction is, is institutionalized, right? Okay.

517
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,180
Speaker 2: So back to the Bible, the Bible is not law, uh,

518
00:30:05,380 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 2: civic law. It doesn't provide a civil law, right? Rather

519
00:30:08,380 --> 00:30:09,979
Speaker 2: what it gives is, is it gives us rules for

520
00:30:10,020 --> 00:30:14,220
Speaker 2: making the rules. So it says, do not murder. Yeah.

521
00:30:14,290 --> 00:30:16,070
Speaker 2: Old Testament, new Testament. We can all agree on that.

522
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,650
Speaker 2: Do not say we can all agree on that. Um,

523
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,940
Speaker 2: And I'm saying it says that, as it were, at

524
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,140
Speaker 2: a constitutional level. And then it's up to us in

525
00:30:25,180 --> 00:30:29,770
Speaker 2: our time and place to figure out how to build

526
00:30:29,930 --> 00:30:35,450
Speaker 2: our government, institutions of government, and civil law accordingly. Now, obviously,

527
00:30:35,490 --> 00:30:39,130
Speaker 2: this requires a much longer conversation about Israel and its

528
00:30:39,210 --> 00:30:42,270
Speaker 2: precedent for us. And I don't know if you want

529
00:30:42,290 --> 00:30:46,410
Speaker 2: to get into all that right now. But hopefully everything

530
00:30:46,430 --> 00:30:48,620
Speaker 2: I've said so far is generic enough that we can

531
00:30:48,660 --> 00:30:49,260
Speaker 2: all agree on that.

532
00:30:49,770 --> 00:30:51,870
Speaker 1: Well, I think what an interesting example might be is

533
00:30:51,930 --> 00:30:56,670
Speaker 1: Paul's use of the law from the Old Testament regarding

534
00:30:56,710 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: the prohibition against muzzling oxen while they're treading grain. And

535
00:31:00,420 --> 00:31:03,340
Speaker 1: you see him take that, which is a very case law,

536
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,860
Speaker 1: you know, generically from a genre perspective. I mean, in

537
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,420
Speaker 1: the Old Testament, it is case law. You weren't supposed

538
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,969
Speaker 1: to muzzle your oxen when it's treading grain. What he

539
00:31:13,030 --> 00:31:15,570
Speaker 1: does is he pulls that across in the New Testament

540
00:31:15,590 --> 00:31:18,209
Speaker 1: and says, you know, God doesn't care about oxen, does he?

541
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:18,950
Speaker 1: He cares about us.

542
00:31:19,630 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

543
00:31:21,170 --> 00:31:24,660
Speaker 1: And so now you have this sort of other underlying

544
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: dynamic that we're supposed to pay attention to that the

545
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: law instantiates.

546
00:31:29,420 --> 00:31:30,180
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

547
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: But that the law isn't it. But the law is

548
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,580
Speaker 1: not confining. I can't throw that passage out, which I

549
00:31:36,620 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: find interesting. So I don't know an oxen. So, you know,

550
00:31:40,260 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: I could easily say, well, that law doesn't apply to me.

551
00:31:42,860 --> 00:31:46,140
Speaker 1: But what Paul does is, no, it's still very informative

552
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: for you. You just have to understand it correctly.

553
00:31:49,870 --> 00:31:57,450
Speaker 2: No, that's exactly right. God's moral law is eternal. I

554
00:31:57,630 --> 00:32:01,100
Speaker 2: don't know if any Christian is going to agree on

555
00:32:01,140 --> 00:32:08,660
Speaker 2: that much. And that eternal moral law will be institutionalized

556
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,980
Speaker 2: at different times, in different places, in different ways. So

557
00:32:13,020 --> 00:32:16,190
Speaker 2: in the Garden of Eden, God's eternal moral law was

558
00:32:16,250 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: institutionalized through don't eat from that tree. You can eat

559
00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:25,530
Speaker 2: from any other trees. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But then, you know, hop,

560
00:32:25,550 --> 00:32:27,730
Speaker 2: skip and a jump. We're no longer in our garden.

561
00:32:28,650 --> 00:32:32,930
Speaker 2: It's no longer institutionalized in that way anymore. You know,

562
00:32:32,950 --> 00:32:36,550
Speaker 2: don't eat from that tree. It no longer binds us. Yeah.

563
00:32:37,050 --> 00:32:38,610
Speaker 2: You know, so then you move into kind of the

564
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:41,020
Speaker 2: area of the patriarchs and you move into the time

565
00:32:41,060 --> 00:32:44,780
Speaker 2: of Moses and the time of exile. Then you move

566
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,870
Speaker 2: into the new Testament age of the church. God's eternal

567
00:32:48,930 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: moral law is always binding on us, but he institutionalizes

568
00:32:54,740 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: at different times in different ways and different administrations. And

569
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,460
Speaker 2: so we need to pay close attention to where we're

570
00:33:00,540 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: reading and what covenantal moment we live within to know

571
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 2: how exactly we are to apply his law. So, you know,

572
00:33:09,580 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: there's that famous quote that young preachers and bloggers love

573
00:33:14,140 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: about Kuyper. Jesus rules over every square inch. You know,

574
00:33:18,620 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: there's no inch of creation, which he's not saying mine. True. Wonderful.

575
00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:27,340
Speaker 2: Very beautiful phrase. True. Right. The challenge is Jesus doesn't

576
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,750
Speaker 2: rule over every square inch in the same way. Right.

577
00:33:32,270 --> 00:33:35,390
Speaker 2: Sometimes through a parent, sometimes through a pastor, sometimes through

578
00:33:35,430 --> 00:33:40,590
Speaker 2: a prince, sometimes through, you know, nothing at all. And

579
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:42,330
Speaker 2: so we got to pay closer attention to the end

580
00:33:42,370 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: of an institutional covenantal and institutional structures. He, he, He

581
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:52,380
Speaker 2: assigns to different moments of redemptive history in order to ascertain, okay,

582
00:33:52,660 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: exactly how does Jesus rule over this particular square inch? Yes. So.

583
00:34:01,060 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: It's interesting. So I'll kind of preface this question with,

584
00:34:05,220 --> 00:34:09,510
Speaker 1: I've been doing some work on biblical manhood and part

585
00:34:09,550 --> 00:34:12,620
Speaker 1: of what I'm coming to is that we shouldn't start

586
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: with the notion of biblical manhood. We should allow our

587
00:34:14,739 --> 00:34:16,660
Speaker 1: understanding of what it means to be a Christian man

588
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: emerge from discipleship. That at the end of the day,

589
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,950
Speaker 1: discipleship is what shapes us into male disciples. And that

590
00:34:25,989 --> 00:34:28,910
Speaker 1: could mean something different in one age than it could

591
00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:34,290
Speaker 1: in another. I'm wondering if you see sort of a

592
00:34:34,330 --> 00:34:38,420
Speaker 1: parallel for this with actual political participation. And so what

593
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: I mean by that, just to make sure we distinguish

594
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:43,940
Speaker 1: our terms, the church is this political entity that we

595
00:34:43,980 --> 00:34:47,660
Speaker 1: talked about earlier. Now you've got individual Christians or groups

596
00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: of Christians going out and they're doing things like voting

597
00:34:50,580 --> 00:34:53,220
Speaker 1: or serving on a city council or, um, you know,

598
00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:57,150
Speaker 1: maybe they're senators or what have you. How do you

599
00:34:57,250 --> 00:35:00,350
Speaker 1: see the role of the church sort of sending these

600
00:35:00,450 --> 00:35:06,380
Speaker 1: people into those sorts of vocations? Um, As opposed to,

601
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,580
Speaker 1: you know, us coming up with some sort of set

602
00:35:10,620 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: of ethics that is relatively devoid of any theology.

603
00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: I don't understand the last part of that question. A

604
00:35:19,060 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 2: set of ethics that's devoid of theology?

605
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,819
Speaker 1: What do you mean? So if we were just to say, like, look,

606
00:35:23,860 --> 00:35:27,419
Speaker 1: here's your checklist, you know, don't vote for this, vote

607
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,990
Speaker 1: for this, support these causes, don't support these causes. That

608
00:35:31,030 --> 00:35:34,470
Speaker 1: to me seems like that's a checklist sort of approach

609
00:35:34,510 --> 00:35:37,380
Speaker 1: to this. And it seems to me that part of

610
00:35:37,420 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: what you're arguing in the book is that the church

611
00:35:40,090 --> 00:35:44,590
Speaker 1: is the authoritative and really formative entity of a people apart,

612
00:35:45,890 --> 00:35:48,549
Speaker 1: but that these people are ultimately going to go out

613
00:35:48,610 --> 00:35:51,450
Speaker 1: into the world and they're going to engage in certain

614
00:35:51,489 --> 00:35:54,230
Speaker 1: of these activities. And so I guess maybe the heart

615
00:35:54,250 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 1: of the question is, how do you see that dynamic

616
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 1: really working? How do you see Christian political participation fitting

617
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,230
Speaker 1: with a political church.

618
00:36:08,270 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure. Okay, so we gather together to hear the

619
00:36:11,660 --> 00:36:14,140
Speaker 2: king's law, the king's edicts, the king's demands on our life,

620
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,460
Speaker 2: to hear about our new identity in the king. You're

621
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: all sons of the king now. And that creates a

622
00:36:20,060 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 2: set of obligations to him and a set of obligations

623
00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: to your neighbor, loving him and loving your neighbor. And

624
00:36:25,020 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 2: so as we gather together, Sunday after Sunday, we're going

625
00:36:31,860 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: to teach you everything Jesus commands. Going all nations, making

626
00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:36,489
Speaker 2: a silent teaching, everything I command. So we're going to

627
00:36:36,510 --> 00:36:42,569
Speaker 2: teach you everything he commands. And that's going to mean

628
00:36:42,590 --> 00:36:44,990
Speaker 2: different things for you in different areas of life. So

629
00:36:45,410 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: everything he commands is going to mean one set of

630
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,140
Speaker 2: things for you as a dad, another set of things

631
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,460
Speaker 2: for you as a husband, another for you as a wife, mother,

632
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: another set of things for you as a worker, another

633
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,259
Speaker 2: set of things for you as a citizen. Now, sometimes

634
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,420
Speaker 2: the things that Jesus commands are going to bear direct,

635
00:37:02,540 --> 00:37:06,410
Speaker 2: immediate applications. on you as a dad or you as

636
00:37:06,450 --> 00:37:10,029
Speaker 2: a citizen or you as a voter. Yeah. Sometimes it's

637
00:37:10,070 --> 00:37:12,130
Speaker 2: going to be much more indirect and it's, it's kind of, it's,

638
00:37:12,410 --> 00:37:14,730
Speaker 2: it's not binding. It's, it's kind of over to wisdom

639
00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 2: and you're going to have to make your own judgment calls. Gotcha.

640
00:37:18,940 --> 00:37:21,660
Speaker 2: You know, so let's, let's suppose you're a plumber. Okay.

641
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,700
Speaker 2: What Jesus commands means as a plumber, you got to

642
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,060
Speaker 2: be honest with your, you know, your, your contracts and your,

643
00:37:28,580 --> 00:37:29,989
Speaker 2: what you charge, you got to be fair and you

644
00:37:30,010 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: got to be just and, you got to do a

645
00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:33,489
Speaker 2: good job and you got to work hard because the

646
00:37:33,530 --> 00:37:35,730
Speaker 2: thing is Jesus commands would, would, would require you of

647
00:37:35,770 --> 00:37:37,730
Speaker 2: those things. But now does Jesus command you to wear,

648
00:37:38,210 --> 00:37:44,130
Speaker 2: to use copper pipes versus, uh, uh, fiberglass or whatever?

649
00:37:44,150 --> 00:37:46,150
Speaker 2: What's the alternative to copper?

650
00:37:46,860 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 1: Well, like let's say when they used to use lead pipes, right?

651
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 2: You know, like, well, no, I'm going to leave using

652
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: copper versus lead pipes or whatever those white plastic ones

653
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 2: are that I see it at home Depot. Um, I'm

654
00:38:00,060 --> 00:38:02,970
Speaker 2: going to leave that to your judgment, but based on

655
00:38:03,170 --> 00:38:05,110
Speaker 2: the biblical wisdom that we've built up in you, and

656
00:38:05,130 --> 00:38:06,489
Speaker 2: you might think, actually, I'm going to get more from

657
00:38:06,510 --> 00:38:09,870
Speaker 2: my employees by using this kind versus that kind. These

658
00:38:09,930 --> 00:38:13,650
Speaker 2: are safer. So, yeah, but you have to work that out. Okay,

659
00:38:13,710 --> 00:38:17,299
Speaker 2: same thing in the political space. So does Jesus prescribe

660
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:27,549
Speaker 2: a certain tax rate, you know, 20% versus– 30% or

661
00:38:27,630 --> 00:38:32,439
Speaker 2: progressive versus flat tax. Well, no, he doesn't. The Bible

662
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,540
Speaker 2: doesn't go there, but it does bring a number of

663
00:38:35,620 --> 00:38:38,140
Speaker 2: principles to bear that if you're the person responsible for

664
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 2: tax rates or voting on people who set tax rates,

665
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,340
Speaker 2: that you would bring to bear, right? Principles of justice

666
00:38:47,410 --> 00:38:51,810
Speaker 2: and righteousness and balanced scales and measures and so forth

667
00:38:52,090 --> 00:38:55,950
Speaker 2: and not showing partiality to the The poor or partiality

668
00:38:55,989 --> 00:39:01,489
Speaker 2: to the rich, you know, taking from Exodus 21 and 24.

669
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:06,750
Speaker 2: So part of what a church's job to do is

670
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:13,730
Speaker 2: to equip the saints for that work out there, whatever

671
00:39:13,850 --> 00:39:23,380
Speaker 2: endeavors they're undertaking. And, yeah. Am I answering your question?

672
00:39:23,739 --> 00:39:24,100
Speaker 2: You are.

673
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,830
Speaker 1: And I think it's a hard answer, but I think

674
00:39:27,870 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: it's probably more right than most of the answers. I hear.

675
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: So it's like you have this sort of sea of

676
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:39,140
Speaker 1: complexity that you're walking into that is the world. And

677
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,030
Speaker 1: you realize that it's sort of like a baby's mobile.

678
00:39:42,170 --> 00:39:44,310
Speaker 1: Any corner you touch is going to move that baby's

679
00:39:44,370 --> 00:39:48,310
Speaker 1: mobile in ways that you didn't anticipate. And so what

680
00:39:48,330 --> 00:39:51,290
Speaker 1: we're doing as we're wading into the political environment is

681
00:39:51,350 --> 00:39:54,110
Speaker 1: we're looking at this sort of complex mess of things.

682
00:39:54,610 --> 00:39:57,819
Speaker 1: And we're saying, I need to be focused on loving

683
00:39:57,860 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: God and loving neighbor. And so my actions need to

684
00:40:00,260 --> 00:40:06,530
Speaker 1: be guided in this mess by those sort of commitments

685
00:40:06,570 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: and convictions. And yet, I also realized that all of

686
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,819
Speaker 1: these decisions are very provisional and that anywhere I touch this,

687
00:40:14,860 --> 00:40:17,460
Speaker 1: something else is going to move. And so there's a

688
00:40:17,540 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: care that you have to take, but a realism you

689
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,770
Speaker 1: need to approach it with because this probably isn't something

690
00:40:23,810 --> 00:40:29,150
Speaker 1: we're going to fix. It's sort of a patchwork almost,

691
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:31,430
Speaker 1: it feels like to me oftentimes when we look at

692
00:40:31,770 --> 00:40:35,469
Speaker 1: the political realm. But this notion of the wisdom and

693
00:40:35,489 --> 00:40:39,549
Speaker 1: the guidance to really make those more sober decisions and

694
00:40:39,910 --> 00:40:45,590
Speaker 1: a reasoned and appropriate conscience based. Right. Sort of political

695
00:40:45,650 --> 00:40:49,169
Speaker 1: decision seems to be if I'm summarizing it correctly, seems

696
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:50,870
Speaker 1: to be what you're you're suggesting there.

697
00:40:51,610 --> 00:40:53,370
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. That's all right. Let me

698
00:40:53,390 --> 00:40:56,650
Speaker 2: let me give you three things. OK, I'll try to

699
00:40:56,690 --> 00:41:00,910
Speaker 2: do this somewhat briefly. Number one. you said something that

700
00:41:00,930 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 2: we're not going to fix this. There is an extent

701
00:41:02,780 --> 00:41:06,460
Speaker 2: to which, yes, all politics, right. Sisyphean, you know, Sisyphus,

702
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,140
Speaker 2: he kind of tried to roll up, bark, rock up

703
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,420
Speaker 2: the hill. You might have the best constitution in the

704
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,780
Speaker 2: world and you know, it has the best laws, best candidate.

705
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: You know, it's, it's, it's the rocks going to roll.

706
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, there is a futility. Read Ecclesiastes. There's a

707
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,730
Speaker 2: futility to do it all. We just need to remember that. Okay. Okay.

708
00:41:22,750 --> 00:41:28,420
Speaker 2: Number one, number, number two, um, wisdom in the Bible

709
00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 2: plays a huge role in politics. So Proverbs 8, verses

710
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:40,210
Speaker 2: 15 and 16, wisdom, personified wisdom speaks and says, by me,

711
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:47,310
Speaker 2: princes reign and rulers govern. All right? Yes. So wisdom

712
00:41:47,870 --> 00:41:51,859
Speaker 2: is what's needed to— and wisdom is significant because it means

713
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:56,739
Speaker 2: it's not prescribed. Right. There is some uncertainty. So— One

714
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,940
Speaker 2: other text there, 1 Kings 3, 28, after the episode

715
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 2: with the two prostitutes, you know, both saying, my baby, no,

716
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: my baby. And Solomon's like, I know, bring me a sword.

717
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 2: We'll cut it in half. And the real mom's like, no, no, no,

718
00:42:09,540 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 2: she can have it. And chapter 3, verse 28 says,

719
00:42:13,260 --> 00:42:15,900
Speaker 2: in responding to that whole thing, and the people were

720
00:42:15,940 --> 00:42:20,700
Speaker 2: amazed that God had given wisdom to Solomon to do justice.

721
00:42:21,940 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 2: You want the political philosophy of the Bible in a

722
00:42:24,180 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: single verse? There it is. The wisdom from God. to

723
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,300
Speaker 2: do justice. So when you go out into the political space, friends,

724
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 2: that's what you want. You want wisdom from God to

725
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: do justice. And wisdom is not prescribed. There's no, there's

726
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: no verse in the Bible that says when you're confronted

727
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,330
Speaker 2: by two prostitutes, both claiming a baby is hers, then

728
00:42:41,370 --> 00:42:42,669
Speaker 2: do this. That's not there.

729
00:42:43,010 --> 00:42:43,629
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.

730
00:42:43,850 --> 00:42:46,029
Speaker 2: That's, that's just like, ah, I need, I need, I need,

731
00:42:46,090 --> 00:42:47,870
Speaker 2: I need wisdom. I need skill. God, give me skill.

732
00:42:47,950 --> 00:42:49,770
Speaker 2: Give me wisdom to no do with this, this, these

733
00:42:49,790 --> 00:42:52,050
Speaker 2: two candidates too. I don't like either of these candidates.

734
00:42:52,070 --> 00:42:54,090
Speaker 2: What do I do? Well, then this, this proposition, what

735
00:42:54,110 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 2: do I do? Give me wisdom to do justice, right? Okay,

736
00:42:56,700 --> 00:43:05,620
Speaker 2: so that's number two. Number three, Christians need, churches need

737
00:43:05,660 --> 00:43:09,950
Speaker 2: two buckets. You need a whole church bucket and a

738
00:43:09,950 --> 00:43:12,310
Speaker 2: Christian freedom bucket. Let me put it this way. There

739
00:43:12,330 --> 00:43:15,190
Speaker 2: are two kinds of issues. Straight line issues, jagged line issues.

740
00:43:16,170 --> 00:43:19,730
Speaker 2: Straight line issues are those issues where there's a straight

741
00:43:19,770 --> 00:43:23,690
Speaker 2: line between the biblical text and a political requirement on

742
00:43:23,710 --> 00:43:29,020
Speaker 2: a Christian. You shall not murder, biblical text. Pretty straight line,

743
00:43:29,140 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: I think, to saying abortion is wrong and murder. And therefore,

744
00:43:33,980 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: I think it's what you would call a whole church issue.

745
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,689
Speaker 2: So if you are an abortion doctor, our church will

746
00:43:40,730 --> 00:43:44,529
Speaker 2: remove you as an act of discipline from membership. That's

747
00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:52,589
Speaker 2: a straight line. Yep. Separate but equal, you know, Ku

748
00:43:52,610 --> 00:43:57,500
Speaker 2: Klux Klan sort of Jim Crow laws, pretty straight line.

749
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:03,180
Speaker 2: All men are created equal. And to institutionalize that sort

750
00:44:03,219 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 2: of discrimination is just clear. That's conscious. It's a whole

751
00:44:09,420 --> 00:44:13,740
Speaker 2: church issue. It's a straight line. Most political issues, however,

752
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 2: are not straight line issues. Most political issues are what

753
00:44:17,260 --> 00:44:20,859
Speaker 2: I would call or what folks have called jagged line issues. Now,

754
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: you might have certain biblical principles that you want to

755
00:44:22,980 --> 00:44:26,370
Speaker 2: bring to bear. But there's not a straight line. It's

756
00:44:26,430 --> 00:44:30,009
Speaker 2: a jagged line between the Bible and the policy application.

757
00:44:30,030 --> 00:44:33,450
Speaker 2: So universal health care, immigration law.

758
00:44:34,110 --> 00:44:34,310
Speaker 1: Right.

759
00:44:34,489 --> 00:44:36,610
Speaker 2: Again, tax rates. Yep.

760
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 1: Foreign policy. A lot of fluctuation.

761
00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:41,379
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's just like, okay, well, I think all people

762
00:44:41,420 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: are created equal. That's true. Does that mean I think

763
00:44:43,620 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: we should have universal health care? Well, to get down

764
00:44:45,980 --> 00:44:48,739
Speaker 2: to universal health care, it means certain technologies. judgments i

765
00:44:48,780 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: have to make on quality of care and standards of

766
00:44:50,660 --> 00:44:53,259
Speaker 2: care and certain tax requirements that come along with it

767
00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: and these are all different issues that christians seem to

768
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,430
Speaker 2: be able to disagree on it's like i don't know

769
00:44:58,450 --> 00:45:00,009
Speaker 2: that as i as a pastor can come along and

770
00:45:00,050 --> 00:45:02,350
Speaker 2: say you must take this position on you know it's

771
00:45:02,370 --> 00:45:05,610
Speaker 2: just there's a jagged line between the bible and our

772
00:45:06,010 --> 00:45:08,550
Speaker 2: policy application these are what i would call christian freedom

773
00:45:08,890 --> 00:45:13,069
Speaker 2: issues jagged line christian freedom issues most of politics is

774
00:45:13,130 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: over there there's a few issues And a lot of

775
00:45:16,219 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 2: culture wars over which is which. But there's a few

776
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: issues that are straight line whole church matters. And the

777
00:45:24,180 --> 00:45:28,549
Speaker 2: problem is part of the challenges we have as churches

778
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,950
Speaker 2: is treating a lot of these jagged line Christian freedom

779
00:45:30,989 --> 00:45:35,330
Speaker 2: issues as straight line whole church issues. And that just

780
00:45:35,430 --> 00:45:38,410
Speaker 2: causes all kinds of– I don't want to take either

781
00:45:38,450 --> 00:45:40,470
Speaker 2: bucket out of your hands. I don't want to say, hey, pastor,

782
00:45:40,510 --> 00:45:44,100
Speaker 2: it's all relative. That's not good. There are certain things

783
00:45:44,140 --> 00:45:45,979
Speaker 2: that are absolute. There are certain things that are straight line.

784
00:45:46,020 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: And a pastor needs to be able to preach those things.

785
00:45:48,510 --> 00:45:50,130
Speaker 1: Just need to make sure that you've got them in

786
00:45:50,170 --> 00:45:52,890
Speaker 1: the right bucket. Like that's part of the discerning work

787
00:45:52,969 --> 00:45:54,009
Speaker 1: of what you do as a pastor.

788
00:45:54,030 --> 00:45:56,830
Speaker 2: Back to the wisdom. And that's hard. And you know what?

789
00:45:56,850 --> 00:45:59,130
Speaker 2: Sometimes your brothers and sisters in Christ are going to

790
00:45:59,150 --> 00:46:01,509
Speaker 2: disagree with you about what's a straight line and what's

791
00:46:01,550 --> 00:46:04,379
Speaker 2: a jagged line issue. And just show charity, you know,

792
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,339
Speaker 2: let's be patient and forbear with one another.

793
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,650
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's helpful. We're coming up on the end of

794
00:46:10,670 --> 00:46:12,009
Speaker 1: the interview here, so I want to ask you just

795
00:46:12,090 --> 00:46:14,230
Speaker 1: one last question and then we'll close it out. But

796
00:46:15,250 --> 00:46:20,130
Speaker 1: as you think about the political church, just give Christians

797
00:46:20,170 --> 00:46:24,529
Speaker 1: who are moving toward a political season here again with

798
00:46:24,570 --> 00:46:27,589
Speaker 1: midterms and those kind of things, what advice would you

799
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: give to Christians to be the political church in what

800
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,140
Speaker 1: has become an extremely polarized sort of political environment for

801
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: the United States?

802
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:43,860
Speaker 2: Yeah, right. Great. Um, kind of one of the main messages,

803
00:46:43,940 --> 00:46:46,940
Speaker 2: both of, of, of political church, that book, and then

804
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:52,629
Speaker 2: my followup on how the nations rage is that it's

805
00:46:52,870 --> 00:46:57,730
Speaker 2: more important brother and sister in Christ for you to, uh,

806
00:46:59,550 --> 00:47:04,670
Speaker 2: be a city on a hill and, uh, a healthy

807
00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:10,850
Speaker 2: congregation than it is for you to, uh, Let me

808
00:47:10,870 --> 00:47:16,350
Speaker 2: start over. Politics begins in our life together as a congregation.

809
00:47:17,380 --> 00:47:20,180
Speaker 2: Don't be somebody out on the parenting lecture circuit if

810
00:47:20,219 --> 00:47:24,219
Speaker 2: you're neglecting your kids at home. Don't tell me that

811
00:47:24,340 --> 00:47:31,940
Speaker 2: you care about abortion if you're not helping the unwed

812
00:47:32,540 --> 00:47:37,140
Speaker 2: mom in your church. Don't tell me you care about

813
00:47:38,460 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 2: welfare and tax rates if you're not caring for the

814
00:47:43,739 --> 00:47:48,220
Speaker 2: physical needs of other poor members of your church, right?

815
00:47:50,140 --> 00:47:53,140
Speaker 2: If you care about politics, you're going to start by

816
00:47:53,219 --> 00:47:58,110
Speaker 2: embodying that in the life of the congregation. The city

817
00:47:58,170 --> 00:48:03,430
Speaker 2: on the hill, contrary to everybody from JFK to Ronald

818
00:48:03,450 --> 00:48:07,819
Speaker 2: Reagan to Obama, is not America. The city on the

819
00:48:07,890 --> 00:48:14,910
Speaker 2: hill is, drumroll, our churches. Or I love this line

820
00:48:15,010 --> 00:48:19,610
Speaker 2: from Lincoln's second inaugural address. If you come to D.C.

821
00:48:19,650 --> 00:48:21,990
Speaker 2: and you walk up the steps into the Lincoln Memorial

822
00:48:22,010 --> 00:48:23,730
Speaker 2: and you look to the right and you see inscribed

823
00:48:23,770 --> 00:48:26,890
Speaker 2: in marble on the wall the beautiful, wonderful second inaugural address,

824
00:48:26,930 --> 00:48:30,569
Speaker 2: and some of the final words in that are something about,

825
00:48:30,890 --> 00:48:35,810
Speaker 2: fervently do we pray to achieve and cherish life. a

826
00:48:35,890 --> 00:48:39,070
Speaker 2: just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.

827
00:48:40,170 --> 00:48:42,770
Speaker 2: What a beautiful phrase. Achieve and cherish a just and

828
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:45,790
Speaker 2: lasting peace with ourselves and with all nations. Good question.

829
00:48:46,610 --> 00:48:48,779
Speaker 2: Where will we first achieve and cherish a just and

830
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,540
Speaker 2: lasting peace with ourselves and with all nations? Is it

831
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 2: not among those who go into all nations, making disciples

832
00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: and baptized? Is it not there where we will first...

833
00:49:05,090 --> 00:49:08,950
Speaker 2: Beat our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks.

834
00:49:09,050 --> 00:49:11,580
Speaker 2: Is it not in the congregation of believers where we

835
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,379
Speaker 2: first learn to love our enemy? You know, these people

836
00:49:15,420 --> 00:49:18,109
Speaker 2: who drive me crazy and gossip about me and don't

837
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:19,969
Speaker 2: show up to nursery on time when they say they will.

838
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 2: and they're so annoying and how could that elder say

839
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:24,980
Speaker 2: that dumb thing? Okay, that guy right there. Can you

840
00:49:25,020 --> 00:49:26,859
Speaker 2: love and forgive him right there? Because if you can't

841
00:49:26,900 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 2: do that, forget America. Forget your nation if you can't

842
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:33,130
Speaker 2: even do it with your fellow church members. Okay, so

843
00:49:33,170 --> 00:49:37,569
Speaker 2: heading into the midterms, I would say the same thing.

844
00:49:37,610 --> 00:49:42,410
Speaker 2: I would say 365 days a year in the four-year cycle.

845
00:49:43,070 --> 00:49:46,350
Speaker 2: It starts in your church. And it's only as we

846
00:49:46,430 --> 00:49:57,219
Speaker 2: learn to live as a transformed city and as a

847
00:49:57,300 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 2: new culture that we can then commend what it means

848
00:50:02,620 --> 00:50:07,650
Speaker 2: to be a transformed city and new culture out there. Yeah.

849
00:50:08,090 --> 00:50:11,470
Speaker 2: So that when we go out there into the public square,

850
00:50:12,730 --> 00:50:17,770
Speaker 2: we don't go primarily to dominate, nor do we go

851
00:50:17,810 --> 00:50:20,350
Speaker 2: and withdraw. Rather, we go to represent. We go to

852
00:50:20,410 --> 00:50:23,469
Speaker 2: represent the kingdom of heaven. That's our job. Our job

853
00:50:23,510 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 2: is to be ambassadors. So, you know, any Christians, listen,

854
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,020
Speaker 2: I want you to engage politically, but I want you

855
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,859
Speaker 2: to go and engage politically as ambassadors for the king. Yeah.

856
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:42,980
Speaker 2: And calculating all of your decisions and votes and actions

857
00:50:43,020 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 2: and participations, letting your heavenly citizenship shape and determine what

858
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:51,980
Speaker 2: you do with your earthly citizenship.

859
00:50:55,120 --> 00:51:00,900
Speaker 1: Yeah, really helpful. Great distinctions. Great book. Thanks so much

860
00:51:00,940 --> 00:51:05,029
Speaker 1: for being on, Jonathan. Really appreciate you. Appreciate your work.

861
00:51:05,900 --> 00:51:10,350
Speaker 1: And I think that because Political Church is an IVP title,

862
00:51:11,310 --> 00:51:14,870
Speaker 1: we get a 20% discount from IVP. So you can

863
00:51:15,310 --> 00:51:19,650
Speaker 1: find the link to the book on the IVP Press website.

864
00:51:19,710 --> 00:51:21,850
Speaker 1: If you order it off there and use the discount code,

865
00:51:21,870 --> 00:51:25,219
Speaker 1: you'll get 20% off. I'll put a few other links

866
00:51:25,300 --> 00:51:28,700
Speaker 1: to Jonathan's work in the show notes. You can find

867
00:51:28,739 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: him as well as a link to the Nine Marks

868
00:51:30,380 --> 00:51:33,140
Speaker 1: page where you can see his whole collection of books,

869
00:51:33,219 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: I assume, or many of them there. And so check

870
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 1: out more of his work. Jonathan, again, thanks for being here.

871
00:51:39,410 --> 00:51:40,730
Speaker 1: This was a really great conversation.

872
00:51:41,310 --> 00:51:45,850
Speaker 2: James, thanks for the questions and spurring us all on

873
00:51:46,070 --> 00:51:47,290
Speaker 2: to think about helpful things.

874
00:51:48,030 --> 00:51:50,790
Speaker 1: Absolutely. All right, everybody. Well, thanks for being here for

875
00:51:50,810 --> 00:51:53,069
Speaker 1: this episode of Thinking Christian. We'll catch you next time.

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00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:53,589
Speaker 1: Take care.