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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 2: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel. This is

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Speaker 2: your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.

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Speaker 2: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

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Speaker 2: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk. But it's

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Speaker 2: also a place of hope and healing. I know that

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Speaker 2: firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic, not

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Speaker 2: the other way around. Today, I've found sobriety after decades

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Speaker 2: of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I found Jesus.

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Speaker 2: My prayer is that as I interview people just like

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Speaker 2: you and just like me, along with professionals in the

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Speaker 2: fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you will find

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Speaker 2: the piece that is available to you through Christ on

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Speaker 2: the other side of whatever you're going through and whatever

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Speaker 2: addiction that might be. Because let's face it, we're all

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Speaker 2: addicted to something so welcome, let's get radically vulnerable as

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Speaker 2: we explore what it looks like to be on this

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Speaker 2: journey of MESSI sanctification. We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 2: I've said this before and I'll say it again. And

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Speaker 2: that is you don't have to have a rock bottom

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Speaker 2: moment to realize that your relationship with alcohol or substance

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Speaker 2: or food or whatever needs to change. And today's guest

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Speaker 2: ironically had several, maybe you want to call them, rock

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Speaker 2: bottom moments, but the moment that made her stop the

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Speaker 2: reef of prescription medication that she was addicted to was

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Speaker 2: not the er visit where her mom had to fly

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Speaker 2: in from out of town to you come take care

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Speaker 2: of her. The moment that led to her finally turning

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Speaker 2: the page on her addiction has to do with a

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Speaker 2: moment of absolute beauty and where God met her in

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Speaker 2: a scene involving a bumblebee and a flower. And oh,

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Speaker 2: it is such an incredible story. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: fully give it away because I want her to tell

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Speaker 2: this story. But I think it's important to realize that

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Speaker 2: God can meet us in the rock bottom moments, but

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Speaker 2: he can also meet us in the small moments of beauty.

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Speaker 2: Today's guest is Erica Graham. Erica is a former Division

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Speaker 2: one basketball player played played collegiately. She is a seminarian

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Speaker 2: or I should say a seminary graduate. She preaches regularly

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Speaker 2: where she lives down in Houston. And her story is

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Speaker 2: also a good reminder that even if you have the

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Speaker 2: quote unquote picture of perfect life, you can still struggle,

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Speaker 2: like for so long. Erica's husband was a professional football player,

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Speaker 2: and she was the wife of a professional football player.

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Speaker 2: And I think a lot of us would look at

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Speaker 2: that and say, oh my gosh, like you have everything

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Speaker 2: at your fingertips, like why would you need this, why

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Speaker 2: would you need this substance? But yet addiction doesn't care.

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Speaker 2: And so I think there are plenty of you that

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Speaker 2: will be able to relate to Erica's story. I think

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Speaker 2: it's a story that is important and needs to be told.

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Speaker 2: And what you will hear in this story is that addiction,

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Speaker 2: the substance whatever we're turning to, is not a precision

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Speaker 2: numbing agent. It's not a scalpel. It has a chainsaw.

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Speaker 2: And so when we think we're taking this whatever, we're

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Speaker 2: using this whatever in order to get and numb that

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Speaker 2: one specific thing, what we don't realize is that it

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Speaker 2: doesn't do that. It numbs so much more. And so

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Speaker 2: that comes into play in the story of the Bumblebee

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Speaker 2: and the Flower with Erica. And maybe you'll cry like

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 1: Because I definitely started tearing up.

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Speaker 2: At the story and at that realization that alcohol drugs food,

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Speaker 2: it's not a precision numbing agent. Listen, before we get

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Speaker 2: to this, just reminder that if you are doing dry January,

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Speaker 2: if you know someone is doing dry January, maybe you're thinking,

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Speaker 2: all right, I'm just gonna give up alcohol or whatever

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Speaker 2: for a month. Don't do it alone. The book that

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Speaker 2: I wrote that's titled the same as this podcast, Confessions

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Speaker 2: of a Christian Alcoholic, is available for thirty percent off

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Speaker 2: plus free shipping through the publisher, which you can go

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Speaker 2: to Christianlcoholic dot com Christianalcoholic dot com and you'll be

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Speaker 2: able to find the link there for the book. But

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Speaker 2: don't do dry January alone. The book can be a

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Speaker 2: guide for you, and I've written it in that way.

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Speaker 2: Final thing here, and I don't want to make a

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Speaker 2: too big a deal out of this, but what I

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Speaker 2: think is so encouraging about this conversation with Erica is

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Speaker 2: that like Erica and I theologically, we just have different

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Speaker 2: thoughts on things. Right. Her seminary is very different from

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Speaker 2: the seminary that I graduated from. But I think when

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Speaker 2: we find things that we can agree on, it's really

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Speaker 2: important to have those conversations. And so what Erica and

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Speaker 2: I have found so much agreement in is gospel centered

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Speaker 2: recovery and what it looks like to incorporate and to

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Speaker 2: shoot for Jesus really, and so I just I'm encouraged

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Speaker 2: by this conversation. I'm encouraged that her and I can

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Speaker 2: come together. And I mean, we don't get into theological

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Speaker 2: topics in this, but I just wanted to point that out,

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Speaker 2: not in the sense that because we're different, but because

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Speaker 2: we have found this important point of agreement. And I

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Speaker 2: consider Erica a friend and I think after you hear

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Speaker 2: her story, you'll see why. So without further ado, Erica Graham, Erica,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining the podcast. This is

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Speaker 2: a real treat for me, given who you are and

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Speaker 2: where you are from. My wife jokes that I have

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Speaker 2: like a Wisconsin radar, and sure enough, the person that

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Speaker 2: introduced us didn't even like remember that connection. And then

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Speaker 2: you hopped on the phone and I was like, this

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Speaker 2: is she's one of my people.

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Speaker 3: Well, I see right now you have a Wisconsin Badger

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Speaker 3: football helmet in your background, and my husband was a

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Speaker 3: Badger football player. So I was like wait, did you

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Speaker 3: put that out just for me? And you're like, no,

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Speaker 3: that's there all the time, and.

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Speaker 2: That like, don't sell yourself short, Like not only was

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Speaker 2: your husband a Badger a Division IE athlete, but you,

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Speaker 2: Eric Agraham, were also a Division one Wisconsin athlete.

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Speaker 1: I was.

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Speaker 3: When that comes up, I always tell people don't google

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Speaker 3: my stats. I sat on the bench and walked on,

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Speaker 3: but technically I did have a roster spot, so I'll

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Speaker 3: claim that.

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Speaker 2: Come on, Yes, So I really am excited about this conversation.

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Speaker 2: I've been looking forward to this one, and I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, I talked a little bit about in the intro,

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Speaker 2: but you know, I think it is great. Like, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's no secret that you and I can probably come

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Speaker 2: from different perspectives on certain issues theologically, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's important that when we can find issues that we

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Speaker 2: agree on, that we talk about that and celebrate those.

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Speaker 2: And I think this is one of those issues when

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Speaker 2: it comes to addiction, when it comes to recovery, and

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Speaker 2: so I'm I'm I'm really excited to hopefully model in

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Speaker 2: some small way what this can look like. So thanks you,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, John, I've thought about our initial conversation

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Speaker 3: when we talked about doing this podcast a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: And I think you're right. I think you and I might.

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Speaker 3: Have some theological differences, but really those containers are differences

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Speaker 3: are are what keep are keeping us trapped as a society,

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Speaker 3: right when you look at the division, like when there

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Speaker 3: is we have so much in common. In fact, when

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Speaker 3: I was getting introduced to you, I was like, is

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Speaker 3: this just me in male form? You know, like like

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Speaker 3: his story is from those cud to the addiction to Wisconsin,

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Speaker 3: I was like, wait, what's going on here? So I

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Speaker 3: love that we can talk about all the intersections that

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Speaker 3: we have because there's so many.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. That's funny. I mean, if people are watching us,

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Speaker 2: they would see that you are you are not just

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Speaker 2: me in female form, you know, much more voluptuous hair,

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Speaker 2: you know, that just exists.

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Speaker 1: I get podcast ready.

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Speaker 2: You know, Well you kind of alluded to to some

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Speaker 2: of your you know, the similarities in the story, and

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Speaker 2: that's really I just want to go there right away

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Speaker 2: because I think your story is so powerful, It is

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Speaker 2: so interesting, and it has so many unique facets, and

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Speaker 2: so I would love for you to just kind of

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Speaker 2: take us back you have an addiction story, but it

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Speaker 2: goes deeper than I hate to say just that, right,

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Speaker 2: but as people who have addiction issues, we know that

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Speaker 2: it's always deeper than just the addiction. So I'd love

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Speaker 2: for you to kind of walk us through from the beginning.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, my earliest memory of compulsive behavior, which addiction,

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Speaker 3: if anybody isn't familiar with it, is a compulsive ritual.

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Speaker 1: Really it's a compulsive act.

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Speaker 3: But my earliest memory of compulsive behavior, it's kind of

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Speaker 3: unwanted results from compulsions, is in third grade when I

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Speaker 3: started washing my hands obsessively and kind of had an.

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Speaker 1: Early OCD ish diagnosis.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I was formally given the diagnosis of OCD,

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Speaker 3: but I went in to get help for my hand

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Speaker 3: washing and I was also performing religious rituals at the

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Speaker 3: time got rediagnosed with OCD at the age of thirty,

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Speaker 3: and that's when I really entered a specific kind of

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Speaker 3: treatment for OCD specifically. But I say all that to

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Speaker 3: say that my compulsive behavior began at a young age.

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Speaker 1: I was always kind of an all or nothing type girl.

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Speaker 1: You either do it or you don't.

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Speaker 3: I was that way with basketball shooting, I had to shoot.

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Speaker 3: I believe it was fifteen hundred shots a week, and

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Speaker 3: I remember you telling me this, yes, and I would

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Speaker 3: count them, you know, And was just so hard on myself.

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Speaker 3: If I had a bad session where I'm gonna go

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Speaker 3: shoot a hundred in the driveway and I missed a

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Speaker 3: majority of the one, it was just like not a

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Speaker 3: self hatred, but like a disgust.

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Speaker 1: So it's always just hard on myself.

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Speaker 3: And what's interesting is my parents were loving, did not

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Speaker 3: struggle with OCD.

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Speaker 1: Didn't really understand why I was so hard on myself.

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Speaker 3: But that's kind of my earliest memory of compulsive behaviors.

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Speaker 3: I went on my first diet when I was fifteen

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Speaker 3: years old, and I did it kind of casually to

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Speaker 3: lose a little bit of weight and get faster. I

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Speaker 3: noticed that the girls that were running the eight hundred

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Speaker 3: were smaller than me and they were beating me, and

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Speaker 3: so I, kind of in a healthy way, decided I'm

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Speaker 3: going to clean up my diet and maybe get a

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Speaker 3: little healthier.

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Speaker 1: And it worked.

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Speaker 3: I got a little bit smaller, I got a little faster.

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Speaker 3: And I always say I think sometimes in addiction this

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Speaker 3: is true. It works until it doesn't. So what worked

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden became extreme, just like in drinking,

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Speaker 3: just like in any kind of addiction, All of a

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Speaker 3: sudden it became out of hand where I was restricting

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Speaker 3: myself all day, binging every night, compulsively exercising, which I

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Speaker 3: now know is called competentory exercise or exercise. Believe me,

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Speaker 3: it's even been culled. But because I wasn't throwing up,

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Speaker 3: I didn't think I had a problem. But I would

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Speaker 3: wake up and go on these long runs to punish

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Speaker 3: myself from the binge before. So I started engaging in

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Speaker 3: kind of addictive, out of control behaviors around food. I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't say I was addicted to food. I'd say that

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Speaker 3: again I had these compulsions around food. And then later

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Speaker 3: in college it became with the prescription medication, and again

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Speaker 3: it worked until it didn't and I started to abuse that.

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Speaker 3: So so many times in addiction, I think, like what,

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Speaker 3: you kind of convince yourself that are you normal or

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Speaker 3: are you fine?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: Like you live in this gray until all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: your life is proving that this is a real problem.

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Speaker 1: And it was in I had.

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Speaker 3: Been dating my college boyfriend, Garrett Graham. He got drafted

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Speaker 3: in the twenty ten NFL Draft to play for the

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Speaker 3: Houston Texans. I was actively addicted to this prescription medication

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Speaker 3: at the time, and when I moved to Houston, my

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Speaker 3: identity was challenged because all of a sudden, I later

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Speaker 3: became this Texan wife, but I didn't have my Really,

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Speaker 3: my identity was not just in christ it was in

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Speaker 3: all the things I did, and that wasn't there anymore.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't the basketball player in Houston. I wasn't, you know,

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Speaker 3: whatever job or internships or friend groups I belonged to.

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Speaker 3: I was starting over and I found myself lonely and

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Speaker 3: abusing this prescription even more to the point where I

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Speaker 3: was having to go into the er regularly.

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Speaker 1: And at that.

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Speaker 3: Point it was like I could slowly start to accept

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Speaker 3: this is a problem. Yeah, And it's amazing the amount

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Speaker 3: of denial you will engage in when you're active in

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Speaker 3: an addiction. I kept saying like, well, that was the

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Speaker 3: last time, right, That's the last time that'll happen, and

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Speaker 3: then I'm back in the er at one am.

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Speaker 1: And there was one moment in.

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Speaker 3: Particular where I was at ben Toob Hospital late at

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Speaker 3: night by myself and my mom had to fly in

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Speaker 3: from Wisconsin to come get me. And that was probably

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Speaker 3: one of the most sobering wake up calls that this

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Speaker 3: was not working in my life, and I had a

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Speaker 3: severe addiction to this medication. And I think underlying that

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Speaker 3: addiction was a lot of my food issues and exercise

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Speaker 3: issues and body image issues that needed to be resolved.

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Speaker 3: So healing was not just from the addiction, but also

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Speaker 3: from the things underneath, as you mentioned.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know, I could probably keep going on,

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Speaker 1: but that's kind of a zoom out look into Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all my life has been compulsive in different ways.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we're going to dive in for sure, but

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Speaker 2: I want to go back to even the beginning before

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Speaker 2: we even get into some of the addiction stuff. As

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Speaker 2: you said, something that I think is interesting that maybe

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Speaker 2: some people don't quite fully realize can be a a

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Speaker 2: symptom of OCD. And you talked about religious OCD, and

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Speaker 2: you know, we call that in our in our line

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Speaker 2: of work, we call that scrupulosity. Yeah, the fancy word, right,

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Speaker 2: describe what scrupulousity is? Yeah, how that and how what

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Speaker 2: that looked like in your life?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, scrupulous city, I think I actually say scrupulosity,

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Speaker 3: but maybe you say it right.

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Speaker 1: You might be challenging, well, you have it, do that right.

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Speaker 1: Scrupulosity is actually people think it's just religious, and scrupulosity

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Speaker 1: is actually can be moral.

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Speaker 3: It can be not wanting to harm others. There are

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Speaker 3: lots of ways, even politically nowadays, you can want to

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Speaker 3: be like this perfect, this perfect citizen morally, or defend

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Speaker 3: justice perfectly in your life, or be untangled from systems

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Speaker 3: of oppression perfectly. And so anytime there's kind of this

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Speaker 3: impossible perfection around morality, which often shows up in religious contexts,

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Speaker 3: that can turn into OCD if it is creating rituals,

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Speaker 3: if it is creating a pattern of rumination towards certainty.

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Speaker 3: So an example might be like when I was young,

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Speaker 3: it was showing up as I was making promises to God,

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Speaker 3: but they were quite arbitrary, So I would say, God,

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Speaker 3: I promise you I I don't know, won't step on

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Speaker 3: a crack as I'm walking to gym class. You know,

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Speaker 3: they're kind of these little ways to show my obedience

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Speaker 3: to God, which looking back is really sweet and sincere,

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Speaker 3: Like how wonderful and earnest that I wanted to please

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Speaker 3: my maker at such a young age. Comes from a pure,

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Speaker 3: beautiful place. But the understanding of it is really this

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Speaker 3: chase towards being good that I think that's why Christianity

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Speaker 3: and grace is just the game changer for me.

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Speaker 1: And that's that like, we don't get.

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Speaker 3: To earn this no matter how hard we try, And

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Speaker 3: boy did I try to earn my salvation if you

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Speaker 3: want to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when that stuff started happening, were your parents noticing

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Speaker 2: any of that? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I think I had confessed to my mom that I

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Speaker 3: was I can't remember what it was, but I had

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Speaker 3: justified some kind of ritual I was doing as I

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Speaker 3: told her I'd promised God and that they couldn't stop

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Speaker 3: promising God things. And so I remember being distressed about

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Speaker 3: this loop of making promises to God throughout the day.

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Speaker 1: And I also noticed that other.

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Speaker 3: People weren't doing that, you know, I think theologically a

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Speaker 3: theme throughout.

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Speaker 1: All my life. I felt like other people could move

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Speaker 1: on quicker.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Erica, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, like I'd be like.

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Speaker 3: Just like, well, if this is what we're supposed to do,

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Speaker 3: then like why would we do anything else? Like why

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Speaker 3: is anyone caring about anything else right now, So it

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Speaker 3: was just again black and white, and I now I

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Speaker 3: think the theology of grace has just been such a

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Speaker 3: game changer, and that I don't get to control other people,

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Speaker 3: I don't get to control my own life. It is

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Speaker 3: just as recovery is surrendering. And that's why I think

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Speaker 3: I feel so grateful that I have a twelve step program.

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Speaker 3: Or I know there are many ways, as we talked

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Speaker 3: about earlier, many programs to practice surrender in community, in

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Speaker 3: truth telling, in but I think we're all struggling with

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Speaker 3: uncertainty and surrender and addiction and our addictions just like

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Speaker 3: make us look at it more intensely, which I'm so

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Speaker 3: grateful for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh that's an interesting thing you just said there, right,

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Speaker 2: And I think maybe we'll come back to it in

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Speaker 2: more depth, but yes, right, Like I have gotten to

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Speaker 2: the point, like Paul, I think where you say or

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Speaker 2: you're thankful for the thorn in their flash because you know,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, like left to my own devices without

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Speaker 2: this thorn, like I am a I am just a

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Speaker 2: lost person, you know, not in the trite, like churchy

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Speaker 2: way to say it, but like I just would be

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Speaker 2: so utterly rudderless if you will. It's like that thorn,

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Speaker 2: that little thing, it almost in a sense access as

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Speaker 2: yet utter right totally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I think go

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Speaker 3: back to that one night at Ben Tobb where I

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Speaker 3: actually had some auditory hallucinations where I had voices in

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Speaker 3: my head and I was aware that that was not reality,

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Speaker 3: which is almost good and bad, Like I was aware

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Speaker 3: that this is not real, but it is to me

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Speaker 3: in this moment. I think that's given me so much empathy,

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Speaker 3: I said in a sermon recently, like when I see

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Speaker 3: it on How's person on the street corner, I know

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Speaker 3: what it's like to be caught in an addiction if

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Speaker 3: I perceive that they seem to be caught in either

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Speaker 3: mental illness or addiction. But I also know that what

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Speaker 3: separates me from them is a lot of things that

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Speaker 3: I can't control and didn't earn, like a social support network,

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Speaker 3: like perhaps less trauma in my past, resources to get

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Speaker 3: help and to get on my feet, you know. So,

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Speaker 3: I think another gift of it is that when you

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Speaker 3: start to give yourself grace, it's a lot easier to

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Speaker 3: give it to other people that are also there.

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Speaker 2: Oh you know this, You know people who are watching

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Speaker 2: and I think they've seen this is my newest tattoo

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Speaker 2: as of this recording. Hopefully by the time this comes out,

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Speaker 2: I'll have seventy five more. Says he today eye tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: And it was a saying by the old Desert church fathers.

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Speaker 2: And the story, you know, the legend is is that

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Speaker 2: you know, one one monk came to, you know, the

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Speaker 2: padre and said like, hey, did you hear about you know,

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Speaker 2: brother Lawrence, like he you know, fell away and left

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Speaker 2: the left the convent or whatever, you know, and and

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Speaker 2: the father looked at the guy and said, he today

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Speaker 2: eye tomorrow. And it was just this idea of extreme

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Speaker 2: humility that says, I am one decision away from being

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Speaker 2: that person, I am one slip, I am one fall

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Speaker 2: from being Brother Lawrence, you know. And I think that's

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Speaker 2: exactly what Like you see those people and you're like,

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Speaker 2: you know, now we kind of have this this this

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Speaker 2: this humility that that has to say that not that

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Speaker 2: that just could have been me, but man, that could

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Speaker 2: be me. Like if I am not.

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Speaker 1: Careful, yeah, and I am them and they are me

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Speaker 1: that I have that, yeah, right, I have that in

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Speaker 1: me now?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, I want to go back before we

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Speaker 2: get in and if at any time I ask a question,

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Speaker 2: you're like, take a hike. I don't want to answer that.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm.

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Speaker 2: But before we get more into the prescription addiction, is

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Speaker 2: there anything looking back? And maybe you've kind of talked

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Speaker 2: about this a little bit, like, you know, there's some

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Speaker 2: anxiety and OCD obviously in my past, but there's also

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Speaker 2: some some unhealed traumas, Like was there anything that you

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Speaker 2: felt other than the OCD that that kind of paved

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Speaker 2: the way for some of your later addictions. Mm.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've talked about this is my therapist a lot,

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Speaker 3: and the only thing that I can kind of pinpoint

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Speaker 3: is that when I was three, I I was diagnosed.

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00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 3: Actually I wasn't diagnosed. Let me sorry, I'm gonna have

391
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Speaker 3: to edit this, but when I was three.

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Speaker 2: Not gonna edit that now?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? No, okay, yeah, yeah, you're right. This is gonna

394
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 3: be good exposure for my perfectionism. Leave all these mistakes

395
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Speaker 3: in there, you go, right, But when I was three,

396
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Speaker 3: I got really sick and my blood would not clot.

397
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Speaker 3: I was in preschool at the time, and I was

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Speaker 3: taken to the doctor. It started with a bloody nose.

399
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Speaker 3: It just wouldn't stop. I had bruises all over my

400
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Speaker 3: legs and I ended up getting a bone marrow.

401
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Speaker 1: Sample.

402
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Speaker 3: Like, they tested my bone marrow because they thought maybe

403
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Speaker 3: I had aplastic anemia or leukemia, and it ended up

404
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Speaker 3: being that I don't know the exact medical terminology, but

405
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Speaker 3: something with my white blood cells.

406
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Speaker 1: Mom, was it my white blood cells or red.

407
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Speaker 3: Blood cells to somewhere I don't know anyways, either my

408
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 3: wife bird tells or my white books. Okay, my mom

409
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Speaker 3: was like mom, mom, in my baby right now, who's sleeping?

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Speaker 1: She she knows the details.

411
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Speaker 3: But anyway, So I had this kind of medical trauma

412
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Speaker 3: that I was in and out of the hospital for

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Speaker 3: several months.

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Speaker 1: It was a big deal.

415
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Speaker 3: My preschool class wrote me notes and letters. I had

416
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Speaker 3: visits from my preschool class. My brother was pulled out

417
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Speaker 3: of kinder because I could not get another illness on

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Speaker 3: top of what I had.

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Speaker 1: And at the age of three, I just remember being

420
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Speaker 1: aware of death. You know.

421
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Speaker 3: I was in a hospital unit where other children didn't

422
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Speaker 3: have hair, and I remember asking questions about why she

423
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Speaker 3: didn't have any hair, and why did I have these

424
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 3: long pigtails still, and that didn't really seem fair, and

425
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Speaker 3: it just became, oh, I think kind of big existential

426
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 3: questions that we asked in life. I was exposed to

427
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Speaker 3: and I was picking up on that this isn't forever,

428
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Speaker 3: and so whether that triggered some of my future anxieties.

429
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Speaker 3: I also know they struggled finding a diagnosis for a while.

430
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Speaker 3: It was kind of a rare thing that happened, and

431
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Speaker 3: that mono had attacked at the same time as another

432
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Speaker 3: virus and shut down my blood cells so that they

433
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Speaker 3: couldn't clot and plate. So all that to say, there

434
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Speaker 3: was uncertainty, and I'm not sure if that kind of

435
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 3: triggered anxiety around uncertainty in the future or not, but

436
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Speaker 3: it is one significant event in my life that I

437
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 3: reflect back to as possibly something again, like when you

438
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 3: have mental illnesses, it's so hard to decide if there's

439
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 3: a cause or not. But that was definitely life alterating,

440
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 3: life altering for me. And I was three, so I

441
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 3: remember bits and pieces, right. I remember the shot that

442
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 3: went into my book marrow because that was painful and my.

443
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 2: Parents I've heard, I mean it's like this, It's yeah,

444
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: a freaking twelve inch needle or something.

445
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 3: I remember the nurse told me to look at a

446
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 3: teddy bear that was on a window and I kind

447
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 3: of bent over and my parents were not in the

448
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 3: room with me.

449
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: I remember that. I remember, I remember sweet things like

450
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: I remember watching Lady in the Tramp late at night

451
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: with my mom, who stayed with me at night. So

452
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: I have some kind of memories from this, and then

453
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: the rest of my memories I think are probably just

454
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: stories I was told from that time.

455
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

456
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 3: I also do remember doing a ninja turtle craft in

457
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 3: the craft room with somebody who didn't have hair.

458
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: Can you forget that? I mean, yes, but yes.

459
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 3: All that to say, I think this early experience definitely

460
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 3: shaped part of my worldview growing up.

461
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this. Yeah, I think that's interesting,

462
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 2: especially as someone who you know, I have a son

463
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:05,479
Speaker 2: who at four started limping around, and we were like,

464
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: what like like literally just wakes up one day and

465
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 2: like limping. Can't then like can't run, and he can't

466
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: hop and he can barely walk, and we take him

467
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 2: to the pediatrician and pediatrician, you know, I think you

468
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 2: as a mom, well, really I appreciate this. The pediatrician

469
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 2: goes to my wife he's good. I think it's behavioral,

470
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: like he's either making it up or he's milking it

471
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 2: or whatever. And my wife is like, you know, the

472
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 2: mom instinct is like, m I don't think so. And

473
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: so we book him an appointment at Children's hospital and

474
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: sure enough, like he has a tumor in his leg right,

475
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: and that ended up being benign and it went away

476
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: through some high dose and SAIDs. But he still talks

477
00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: about that, like he remembers. He'll just randomly say, Daddy,

478
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: remember and I would used to limp around, you know,

479
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: like remember, remember remember when my when I had my tumor,

480
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: and and so he you know, he was like a

481
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: year older, but yeah, but he like he remembers that vividly.

482
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: And so you know, I pray. My prayer is, Lord,

483
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: let there be no residual effects from that, not necessarily

484
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: the tumor, but from the experience. But yeah, yeah, it

485
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: doesn't shock me at all that that maybe there's something there.

486
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: And yet you know, and I think, you know, people

487
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: who are listening to this, like, I don't think I'm

488
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 2: on a I'm not on a hunt for people to

489
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: have trauma that's not there. But I do know that

490
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: and I think you understand this too, that dealing with

491
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: stuff in our past to get to the root issue

492
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: is always a good idea. And I'd rather excavate. I'd

493
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: rather dig stuff up and there be nothing in the

494
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: dirt than to just leave it, leave a little you

495
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: know mine under there that you're just going to walk

496
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: over one day and have it explode.

497
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally, Yeah, And I think, I mean, what

498
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: happens to us shapes us. We know that from being human,

499
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: So of course everything in your life is a part

500
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 3: of you.

501
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, I want to get then to and

502
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: you know, feel free to kind of be as detail

503
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: as possible. But you know you talked about this, this

504
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: prescription drug. When did that enter the picture? And what

505
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: was it?

506
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 3: By the way, you know, I always am a little

507
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 3: bit leery to share what it was, but I think

508
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 3: I will, okay, And that's just for like triggering reasons.

509
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: It's a it's a drug.

510
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: A lot of people are on and everyone I know

511
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 3: who takes it does not abuse it and does it

512
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 3: responsibly and it's been life changing for them.

513
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: Right, just like alcohol, I mean, there's no life can

514
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: drink alcohol responsibly. She doesn't use it?

515
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I took an insane amount of adderall okay,

516
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 3: Federal Vivance amphetamines prescription, and it started innocently kind of

517
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 3: wanting this for my life. I do think, I mean,

518
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 3: I am someone who has ADHD probably like I probably

519
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 3: do check that box. I was definitely probably seeking it

520
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: a little bit at the time. It was my sophomore

521
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 3: year in college when I started it, and I had

522
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 3: already been a compulsive exerciser. So again that's kind of

523
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: some people listening to this are probably like, I hate exercise.

524
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 3: How do you like, how can you not stop exercising?

525
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: Again?

526
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: Exercise works for most people, right, yeah, right, But and

527
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: so I started on a normal dose and just kept

528
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 3: wanting more and more and more.

529
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: And can I dig into of that, like when did

530
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: you start realizing, like what was it like to want more?

531
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: Was it was it? Hey? One time you took maybe

532
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: an extra dose and you felt a little something different,

533
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: Like what was it that you started craving? There?

534
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's twofold one.

535
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: I think it gave me some temporary euphoria and kind

536
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 3: of invincibility, And it is an amphetamine that made in

537
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: high doses made me feel great.

538
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: Until it didn't.

539
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 3: But the other fold, and I think this is probably

540
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 3: ninety percent of the story that I've come to realize,

541
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 3: probably more recently, is that I think I was also

542
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 3: taking it as a way to control my compulsive behaviors

543
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 3: around food, because it is an appetite suppressant, right, So

544
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 3: I think I was also used slash. I still say

545
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: think I know I was also using it to try

546
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 3: to get control of my binge eating disorder at the time.

547
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: So I want to stick a fork in that and

548
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 2: come back. But you know, you've talked about the eating

549
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 2: disorder and which by the way, I have a family

550
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: member who used I answer for the same thing.

551
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 3: And you know, and again I have yet to meet

552
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 3: someone who abused it in the way I did. That's

553
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 3: why I often don't share the name, because this drug

554
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 3: is a miracle for so many people, you know.

555
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, And I like, you know, I have a

556
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: whole chapter in my first book about you know, taking

557
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,239
Speaker 2: medication in the good sense, good way, right, Like I

558
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: get like I'm one hundred percent on board, and yet

559
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: I think what you and I have learned, you can

560
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: abuse like anything can become an addiction, you know what

561
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: I mean, Like people eat their hair and pretty.

562
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: Soon I was taking obscene amounts to feel normal.

563
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, so on the on the eatingess like

564
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: so that started as you started, you know, you talked

565
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: about being in high school running the eight hundred, and

566
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: then that compulsion took over, and so the did did

567
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: the food also in a sense? You know, I know

568
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 2: that in my life with my OCD, there's so much

569
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: that feels uncontrollable, and you know, I can't stop X,

570
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 2: I can't stop Y. I can't stop thinking about this.

571
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: I can't stop thinking about that. Did the eating disorder

572
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: in a sense? Was that also a way for you

573
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: to gain back control in a way?

574
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: You know, It's interesting because.

575
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 3: I didn't wear my eating disorder on my body, so

576
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 3: I was a little bit bigger than I am now

577
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 3: in my body.

578
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: I was always like within a normal ish BM.

579
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 3: I I think I always wanted to lose ten pounds

580
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: or twenty pounds.

581
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: And just couldn't. It was just I just was unsuccessful

582
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: at it.

583
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 3: And the way I would do it is exercise a lot,

584
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 3: not eat, and then at night like give up and

585
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 3: eat everything and wake up in the morning and do

586
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 3: the exact same thing. And that way, it was like

587
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 3: you know, the insanity of addiction, where were just like,

588
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 3: why am I trying this again? This hasn't worked for

589
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 3: five years. Why is it going to work tomorrow or today?

590
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 3: But I remember every binge being like, this is the

591
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 3: this is my last time. I'm never going to do

592
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 3: this again. So the last time I sit down and

593
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 3: eat all this food and then it never was you know,

594
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 3: oh hopefully it was, but yeah, so I kind of

595
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 3: had to treat my I weaned off the medication. A

596
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 3: big motivation for me was childbearing too.

597
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: You know.

598
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 3: I was like, I know I want to have kids someday,

599
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 3: and I know I can't be doing this to my

600
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 3: body when I'm pregnant, So I kind of knew in

601
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 3: the long term.

602
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: I often wonder if.

603
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 3: I was a guy, would I have like had the

604
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 3: motivation to stop, because I think as women, like, you know,

605
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 3: you might be housing other people who are afected by

606
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 3: everything you ingest someday. Yeah, so it's got to end sometime.

607
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 3: The party's gotta wrap up. Though it didn't feel like

608
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 3: a party at all. It was a lot of suffering.

609
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 3: But all I have to say, what was the question again?

610
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 2: I'm sorry whether uh, I don't know, I know what, Look,

611
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 2: if you were answering it so well.

612
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to edit this. You're gonna have to.

613
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: There's no way, there's no way.

614
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 3: But so so my eating disorder was really Oh, I

615
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 3: remember you asked about the adderall use and why, Like

616
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 3: what drove me from more? I think one withdrawal in

617
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 3: two my disordered eating that really was. I think so

618
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 3: much of the reason this started in the first place.

619
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 2: So going back to the usage, like what did that

620
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: start looking like? I mean, you talked about ending up

621
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 2: at the hospital at the one time, but you know what,

622
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: what did the depths of that look like?

623
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think like my husband would kind of joke

624
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 3: that I'd been to every er in town. So you know,

625
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 3: there are like these like emergency room clinics like kind

626
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 3: of in like strip malls or I started going to

627
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 3: those late at night because I was always aware of

628
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 3: how much I had taken wasn't really ready to admit

629
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 3: that to even a doctor, but was also really afraid

630
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 3: that I was going to have like a heart attack

631
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 3: because I was in a panic state from all this amphetamine.

632
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 3: So I would find myself in a panic late at night,

633
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 3: and I don't know why it was late late at night.

634
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 3: Maybe late at night, like you're just forced to be

635
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 3: alone with your body and self, you know, so you're

636
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 3: more in your body. I'm not sure, but oftentimes at

637
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 3: night I would go to an er and I'd get

638
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 3: an EKG and I'd maybe tell a half truth about yeah,

639
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 3: I take this and this is what I'm prescribed, but

640
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 3: I was abusing it and taking more. So, Yeah, it's

641
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: there were so many moments where it's I mean, looking back,

642
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 3: it's it's complete insanity, But at the time it was

643
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 3: like I'm going to lots of ers and I'm having

644
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 3: lots of anxiety at night because of this, and yet

645
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 3: I still just kind of justified it as well, it's

646
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 3: a panic attack or you know, giving it other labels

647
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 3: and not looking at what it really was.

648
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 2: How were you justifying if you were at all? If

649
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 2: you were, how were you justifying taking that many?

650
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 3: Oh, I think I feel it kind of wear en off.

651
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 3: I remember even like opening up capsules and pouring out

652
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 3: a little on my finger and kind of licking it,

653
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: like having a like keeping it in my purse, checking

654
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 3: multiple times to make sure I knew where it was

655
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 3: in my purse.

656
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: How did I justify it. I don't know, Like, how

657
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: do we lie to ourselves an addiction? I'm not sure.

658
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 3: It's like the million dollar questions, do you know, how

659
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 3: did you justify your alcoholism? Like, how did you justify

660
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 3: taking one more drink? This is going to be my

661
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 3: interview for you now.

662
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, right, I would say it was. It

663
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 2: was a variety of things. I mean, I think one

664
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: was I'm not as bad as right and so sure,

665
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: maybe I know I'm drunk right now, but I'm not

666
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 2: in the overall scheme of things. I'm not a derelict father.

667
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 2: I'm not going out to the bars. I'm not draining

668
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: our bank accounts. I'm not hiding money.

669
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: You know.

670
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was one way, like I'm not as

671
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 2: bad as I think. You know, Hey, everyone has their vices, right,

672
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 2: I'm not perfect. I think that was another way. And

673
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: by the way, some of these were like stronger in

674
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: seasons than others. Yeah, I deserve this. I work hard,

675
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,959
Speaker 2: I provide. It's just it's it's a in a sense

676
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 2: of victimless crime, you know that, that total sense of it.

677
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, I was I was at home drinker

678
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 2: late at night. Hey, everyone's in bed including my wife. Well, yeah,

679
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: who cares if I stay up and have four or

680
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: five bourbons while watching the Badger game, like you know. So,

681
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: I mean, there's just a variety of ways, and then

682
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: and then the lies that Satan tells you, you know,

683
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: on on top of that. So, but I'm always curious

684
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 2: because I think, and part of the reason I asked

685
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 2: that question a lot, I think is because I think

686
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 2: it's good to hear other people's lies, the lies they

687
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 2: told themselves. You know, I think part of the heart

688
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: behind this podcast is to let people see themselves in

689
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 2: another person's story. I think, you know, it becomes like

690
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: a mirror. And and so sometimes I think when we

691
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 2: hear the lies that other people told themselves, it's like, oh, dang,

692
00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: I tell myself that one too.

693
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, as you're talking to like check check check right,

694
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 3: answering my question, thank, it was.

695
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: Just I will well we are the same person, remember

696
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: that time. Yeah.

697
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 1: Just whatever gone just said is also how I feel.

698
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 2: So, by the way, I'm always curious, what was Garrett,

699
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: what was your husband kind of saying? What was you know,

700
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 2: seeing you go to all these ers? Is he like

701
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: you have a problem or is he in denial or

702
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: is he like I can't bring it up, Like what

703
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: is his take? Yeah, during this time.

704
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I mean he lived it with me,

705
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,240
Speaker 3: and he was playing in the NFL at the time

706
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 3: and busy and on the road and had away games.

707
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 3: And actually the night I went to Bend Top, he

708
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:45,439
Speaker 3: was in an away game.

709
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: He definitely knew.

710
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: I started staying up really late, like really late, like

711
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: two a m. Not not out at the bar club,

712
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 3: in like at home by myself, unable to flee because hello,

713
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 3: So yeah, he knew, he knew it wasn't right. He

714
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 3: also loved me, and I don't think he knew what

715
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 3: to do or had capacity. You know, that's one thing

716
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 3: about addiction is we're so powerless over other people's addictions.

717
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 3: So he loved me, he didn't know what to do.

718
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 3: He knew something was off. But also I was really

719
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 3: good at covering it. I was a like straight a student.

720
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 3: I think I think I got a lais at a

721
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 3: Rice University. In grad school, I was had friends. I

722
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 3: you know, I also had this big life outside of

723
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 3: the part that he saw, So he saw all of it,

724
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 3: you know, yep, yeah.

725
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a good point because I think

726
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: with my wife too, is like sure like she knew,

727
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 2: like I wasn't drinking the most healthy way. And I

728
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: think there were times she tried to bring it up,

729
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 2: right and I shut that down, explained it away, or

730
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: got mad or whatever, and in a sense taught her,

731
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 2: uh you know what it what it felt like to

732
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 2: confront me on these things.

733
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 3: Right.

734
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 2: But then also like, I mean there were things that

735
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: I wrote when I wrote my book that she read

736
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 2: for the first time because she didn't realize I was

737
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 2: I was. It was it was the depths, the depths

738
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: of it, right, Yeah, the things that I was doing

739
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 2: to hide it. And she, yes, she would see the

740
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: things that seeped through the cracks, but she didn't see

741
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 2: the whole damn that was behind it, right, Yeah, saw

742
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 2: some of these spouse coming out. So I think it's

743
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 2: a it's a good reminder too, and I and I

744
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: and I bring that up too because also if you're

745
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: maybe a spouse that's listening to this, it's like I've

746
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 2: also heard some people beat themselves up like how did

747
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 2: I see it? How did I not notice? And I

748
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,959
Speaker 2: would say a lot of times, by the time you

749
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 2: see the big things the night in the hospital at

750
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 2: bendob like it's been going on behind the scenes for

751
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 2: a lot longer and in a lot bigger ways, you know. Yeah,

752
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: don't beat yourself up.

753
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm constantly like seeking validation too that it was

754
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 3: okay what I was doing, Like, oh yeah, I think

755
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 3: I'd say, like I made I have ADHD, right, and

756
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 3: I'd readim the symptoms like that's me right, So.

757
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 1: Like kind of like like kind of wanting him.

758
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 3: To say, oh yeah, you need addorable, you have ADHD,

759
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 3: you know. And again, a normal person with ADHD might

760
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 3: do really well on a dose of a kind of amphetamine,

761
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: but I was taking it to a next level.

762
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 2: How were you? By the way, I'm curious, like did

763
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 2: did your doctors not realize that you were, you know,

764
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 2: needed prescriptions more often? Or how did that?

765
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: How do I I was?

766
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 3: I was getting it in other places okay, when i'd

767
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 3: run out early, which I think I almost always ran

768
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 3: out early.

769
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: It also like try to get it is a controlled substance.

770
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 3: And again I don't want it to be triggering or

771
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 3: give away any ideas for anyone listening, but there were

772
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,919
Speaker 3: like ways to get it a little earlier. So I'm

773
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 3: not proud of any of that, but I found a

774
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,959
Speaker 3: way to get the amount that I was using.

775
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so bring us to I mean, would you kind

776
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: of say, and I tell people this all the time,

777
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 2: you don't need a rock bottom moment to reevaluate your

778
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:36,439
Speaker 2: relationship with any substance, alcohol at all, whatever, But would

779
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 2: you say that that night where Garrett was away at

780
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 2: a game, like, was that, in a sense your rock bottom?

781
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 3: You know, when I decided to change. It was kind

782
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 3: of the opposite of a rock bottom. So I will

783
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 3: say that night I think was the beginning of me

784
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 3: ending my denial. So it was like, oh, this is

785
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 3: officially a problem, we can call it that, but that

786
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 3: doesn't mean I'm ready to get better.

787
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: That is so important. I'm so glad you said that.

788
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:07,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

789
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like the next day I woke up

790
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: and like, oh I was sober and living in a

791
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: sobriety honeymoon. That was not the case for me.

792
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 3: But I had run out early and we had gone

793
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 3: on a family trip and Garrett and I were in London,

794
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 3: and I came back and I hadn't had my prescription

795
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 3: for a couple of days, and I was feeling crummy,

796
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 3: kind of the withdrawal that comes from taking that amount

797
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 3: and not having it for a couple of days. And

798
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 3: I went on this walk and I saw a flower

799
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 3: and it was hot, pink in color, and it was

800
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 3: a beautiful day. There was breeze, there was this vibrant garden,

801
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 3: and I saw a bumblebee kind of land in the

802
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 3: center of this flower and fly around. And I thought

803
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 3: about how the fact the bumblebee was doating and what.

804
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: A job that was. And I realized in.

805
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 3: That moment that you cannot selectively numb, and that when

806
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 3: I had numbed any anxiety or doubt or uncertainty, I

807
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 3: had also numbed so much beauty and joy. And I

808
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 3: felt like I had soberly experienced God's beautiful nature and

809
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 3: goodness in a moment that I hadn't had access to

810
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 3: in a long time. And so it almost was this

811
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 3: mystical experience for me where I was like, Oh, I

812
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 3: want this, and I can have this, and maybe I

813
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 3: even deserve this too.

814
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 2: Ooh got me a little teary there because that is

815
00:47:55,760 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 2: so beautiful. And I think I've made this joke before,

816
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 2: but it's not. I mean, it's a joke, but it's

817
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 2: not really is like, since I got sober, the the

818
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 2: amount of pictures on my phone of sunsets and nature

819
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 2: and just simple things has like increased exponentially. And I

820
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: think it's exactly what you just said that when we

821
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,839
Speaker 2: numb and we go to escape, it is not a

822
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 2: scalpel right like it is it is it is a chainsaw.

823
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think brown have said you can't selectively numb,

824
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: and that.

825
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 2: Was just like, wow, yes, yes, we'll be right back

826
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 2: after this. And so then when okay, you have that

827
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 2: you know, mystical experience, that that holy spirit moment, and

828
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 2: and then how do you kind of start crawling out

829
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,240
Speaker 2: of that fog? And what decisions and steps did you take?

830
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 1: You know that would I never filled this script again

831
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: after that moment?

832
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: Wow?

833
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,360
Speaker 3: So I know that is not the story of most addictions.

834
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 3: It's mostly nonlinear and bumpy. And I've probably been addicted

835
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:24,439
Speaker 3: to other things like my phone since then.

836
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: But I kind of just would take myself.

837
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 3: In addiction recovery, they say play the tape of like

838
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 3: all the things that addiction is taken from you, like

839
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:42,839
Speaker 3: your peace, your calm, your integrity, you're honesty, you're you know,

840
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 3: so playing a tape of all the reasons I wouldn't

841
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 3: want to go back there in my head when I

842
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 3: want it, and I don't have cravings for it. It

843
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 3: actually doesn't tempt me at all anymore, which is a miracle.

844
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 3: But even even my but there was a time where

845
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 3: I had to quit exercising for a while because it

846
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 3: was compulsive for me. And I would see people running

847
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 3: and I think to myself, I got to do that.

848
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:12,879
Speaker 3: You know, I don't get to do that right now,

849
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 3: but I got to do that. It was fun, it

850
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 3: was amazing what lasted. So you know, I got to

851
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 3: explore this treatment for my ADHD that didn't work. I

852
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 3: don't get to do that again because I've shown myself

853
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:25,360
Speaker 3: that I can't.

854
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: The risk is too high. And I play the tape

855
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: of why you know?

856
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I remember you telling me in a

857
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: conversation that we had, which I thought was really interesting,

858
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 2: is that you ended up doing a twelve step program.

859
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 2: But it's not the twelve step program. I think that

860
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 2: people would think, yeah, you didn't you didn't go to NA,

861
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 2: you went to an overeaters anonymous mm hmm, Yeah, explain that,

862
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: because I think it's actually interesting when when you know,

863
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 2: when we talk about getting to the route, you know,

864
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 2: getting to the root of the issue. You realized that

865
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: it wasn't necessarily a substance issue as much as it

866
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 2: was a needing issue.

867
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're telling that.

868
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I always tell people like and I actually haven't.

869
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 3: I don't think shared publicly what twelve step program I do?

870
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 3: Oh okay, so no, I'm ope. It's it's the fits

871
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 3: perfectly in this conversation. You know, I think you going

872
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 3: through the twelve steps. For me and for my sponsor too,

873
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 3: is going through the twelve steps. It's taking inventory, it's

874
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 3: looking at your life. You're asking the questions and getting

875
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 3: to the heart of what is a spiritual solution. And

876
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 3: so for me, when I am struggling, it's because I'm

877
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 3: not in a spiritual solution. It's not because I didn't

878
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 3: do this or this or this. It's because spiritually I

879
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 3: am needing a rescue or a refuge. So I think

880
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 3: all twelve step programs, like I do, know people who

881
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 3: have struggled with food, and like I sent one friend

882
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 3: to AWA meeting and I was like, yeah, to try

883
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 3: it out, and she's like, Erica, that was not for me.

884
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: Like that totally get it. It's again like so many things.

885
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 3: Like drinking, like adderall like what works for one person

886
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 3: doesn't work for the other. But it is a place

887
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 3: where I found to be honest, to tell the truth,

888
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 3: to not feel alone in my obsession with food and

889
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 3: exercise that kind of undergirded, I think, at least starting

890
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 3: my addiction to amphetamines.

891
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: And then.

892
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 3: It's also like a place of service where I can

893
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 3: do outreach calls for others or showing up I know

894
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 3: helps other people in community. So I think in our

895
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 3: modern life we're so isolated, it's a way to be

896
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 3: interconnected because our sobriety is between us and our higher

897
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 3: power and really holding each other together. And I think

898
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 3: that model is really what I think the perfect Christian

899
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:58,439
Speaker 3: church would be too.

900
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 2: Write Yeah, you mentioned higher power, and I think we know,

901
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: you know, we know who yours is?

902
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, who the words you can't we call it

903
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: higher power? Yeah?

904
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 3: Yeah?

905
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: No, no, no, but I but that's a great segue into

906
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 2: can you unpack the role that you know that finding

907
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 2: and shooting for Jesus played in getting you know, through

908
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: these addictions and through these periods of addiction in your life,

909
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 2: Because now, I mean you went to seminary. You know,

910
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: it's a huge part of your life. Where and when

911
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 2: did that really enter either into or back into your

912
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 2: life and in a real way, and how did it

913
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 2: become part of your recovery story.

914
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

915
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 3: Again, I think the theology of grace that really comes

916
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 3: from the story of Jesus is so much of the

917
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 3: core of my recovery journey. But also I once gave

918
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 3: this sermon kind of earlier in my recovery about how

919
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 3: there is no resurrection without a crucifixion, and so for

920
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 3: us to be resurrected into new life, things within us

921
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 3: have to die. And that's the theology of the Cross.

922
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 3: And so for me to live an honest, spiritual life

923
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,319
Speaker 3: that I can be proud of and rooted in like,

924
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 3: there was a lot that had to be crucified within me.

925
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 3: And I think that is what the Cross is constantly

926
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 3: teaching us, is that the only way to a resurrected

927
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 3: life is through And I tried to go around right

928
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 3: every time I depict numbness instead of feeling I was

929
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 3: trying to get around crucifixion and just go to the resurrection,

930
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 3: and it never worked.

931
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 2: Wow, that is so good. That is so good. And

932
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 2: I think when it comes to that, like were you

933
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 2: I forgot to ask this early on, but like were

934
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 2: you raised in a Christian home? Like what was your upbringing?

935
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 2: And like what was your spiritual life you know, pre addiction, yeah,

936
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 2: juring addiction, Like what did that look like?

937
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,359
Speaker 3: So when I was really young, I was really what

938
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,720
Speaker 3: you would call religious. I just remember feeling really close

939
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 3: to God. And again that might be from that early

940
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 3: childhood experience of being sick when I was three. I'm

941
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 3: not sure, but I always felt kind of this personal

942
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:39,480
Speaker 3: tie and just knowing that God was with me. And

943
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 3: then I grew up going to two different churches in

944
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 3: my hometown. My grandfather was a UCC reverend, but he

945
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 3: was retired, so my mom was a p QUE. My

946
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 3: grandpa was this kind of popular reverend in New Glaris, Wisconsin.

947
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 1: You probably know them for oh.

948
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 2: My alcoholism knows New Glarius.

949
00:55:58,520 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

950
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 3: So I got married at that church in Nuclarius. My

951
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 3: grandfather was the pastor at that church on the hill.

952
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 3: It's a beautiful Swiss church. So from a family of Christians,

953
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 3: was raised Christian. When I got to high school, I

954
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 3: started there was a church in Madison that kind of

955
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 3: had the younger crowd with pizza and coffee and guitars,

956
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 3: and so i'd kind of go to once I was

957
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 3: able to drive, I would like go to this other

958
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 3: church that I thought was, you know, so much better

959
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 3: than my parents' church. And looking back, I mean, I

960
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 3: loved all the churches for different reasons. But you probably

961
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 3: remember this, you know, it was what early two thousands

962
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 3: and two thousand and two, and this was kind of newer,

963
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 3: at least to my consciousness. And I did some Christian

964
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:52,839
Speaker 3: camps in college through athletes in action, and so I

965
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 3: was always seeking a Christian faith in perspective without really

966
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:03,439
Speaker 3: living it, under standing it, or accepting the grace part

967
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 3: of it. Like I think when I imagined religion, I

968
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 3: envisioned all the ways God was mad at me. You know,

969
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 3: it was like a reminder of my guilt because I

970
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 3: didn't sirs with your scrupulosity. Yeah, I didn't know how

971
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 3: to turn it into is surrendering grace. So that's why

972
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 3: I say grace changed my life, like understanding, and I'm

973
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 3: sure I was taught it in Sunday School. Some things, unfortunately,

974
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 3: we just have to live and learn the hardware.

975
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure.

976
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 3: I'm sure I was taught grace, and I was modeled

977
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 3: it by my parents. I have wonderful parents.

978
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 1: But I had to really live it.

979
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 3: I think after after falling down a couple more times

980
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 3: than I had.

981
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 2: To, was do you and do you feel like you

982
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 2: really kind of grasped that. I mean, I feel like

983
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 2: I can say, yeah Christian, growing up, baptized, young, you

984
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:00,920
Speaker 2: know all the stuff. But I don't think I really

985
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 2: grasped grace until you know, three years ago.

986
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I love this quote. This quote from Richard

987
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: Ror says, we cannot think ourselves into new ways of living.

988
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 1: We live ourselves into new ways of thinking. And so

989
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:16,439
Speaker 1: I think I would.

990
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 3: I was trying to think myself into a new life. Yes,

991
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 3: you know, so think about grace, but I didn't know

992
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 3: how to live it.

993
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, in the book I talk about I was.

994
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:29,880
Speaker 2: I had all the head knowledge, but I lacked an

995
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:33,640
Speaker 2: experiential relationship with Jesus. You know. Yes, I knew what

996
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 2: to say, I knew what to do. And by the way,

997
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 2: you can white knuckle it for a long time.

998
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's safe in your head, right, Like sure,

999
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 3: you get a lot of control up there. You don't

1000
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 3: have to feel as many things you get, you get

1001
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 3: to be intellectually stimulated, Like I like living in my

1002
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 3: head too, it's great.

1003
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 2: What was it like? How did you? I think maybe

1004
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 2: there's some people listening to this and maybe they're like, Okay, John,

1005
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 2: all right, I'm realizing that my relationship with whatever, prescription drugs, alcohol, food,

1006
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:16,439
Speaker 2: my phone, TV is not healthy. How did you once

1007
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 2: you finally you know you have the bee in the

1008
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 2: flower moment? How did you then talk about it with others,

1009
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 2: like with your family with Garrett, Like, how were you

1010
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 2: able to get to the point where now you know

1011
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 2: Mom's in the other room, she knows what you're talking about.

1012
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 2: How did that? How did that come about where you

1013
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: were able to say, hey, guys, you should know that

1014
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 2: I've been I think.

1015
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's such a good question because I think there

1016
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 3: is some awkwardness in that, right. I never want anyone

1017
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 3: I lived with, or anyone that raised me to feel

1018
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 3: like they were the cause for any of this, because

1019
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 3: I don't believe they were in my situation at least.

1020
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1021
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 3: So, and like you said, like you wrote some things

1022
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 3: in your book that's new to your wife. That's kind

1023
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 3: of awkward too, right, Like some of some of this

1024
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 3: like is awkward, and it's because it's kind of supposed

1025
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 3: to be, you know, you the reason you've avoided this

1026
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 3: so long is because it is awkward to tell that truth,

1027
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:20,439
Speaker 3: you know. So just like being like, hey, this isn't

1028
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 3: going to be easy to tell these people what I've

1029
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 3: actually been doing and how I actually am and what's

1030
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 3: been going on under their noses, like that is going

1031
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 3: to be uncomfortable, and that is probably what kept you

1032
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 3: in the secrecy and isolation of addiction to one.

1033
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love what you said, and I remember and

1034
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 2: I wanted to come back to it, which is you

1035
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 2: know you talked about knowing you knew you had a problem, right,

1036
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:56,560
Speaker 2: you were finally able to admit it. But that wasn't

1037
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 2: That wasn't like when you woke up the next day

1038
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 2: and were like, okay, I'm done, right. You know. There's

1039
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 2: even I have two dates tattooed on my arm. I

1040
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 2: guess I should maybe get three, because it's like it's like,

1041
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:09,480
Speaker 2: one is the day I committed to sobriety. One's my

1042
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 2: last drink. But there's a date even earlier than that,

1043
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 2: that's two weeks earlier where I said to my wife

1044
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 2: and I said, you know, I was on this spiritual

1045
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 2: retreat and the Holy Spirit was working on me. I'm like,

1046
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 2: I'm an alcoholic. I'm an alcoholic. Two weeks later, it

1047
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 2: took me two weeks to hit rock bottom. Two weeks

1048
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 2: because then I convinced myself but maybe I'm not.

1049
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, maybe I'm.

1050
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 3: Getting I think when you're in the mental state of something,

1051
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 3: it's so hard to see outside of it, right, Like,

1052
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 3: even though it might be clear in a moment that

1053
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 3: you have a problem, okay, today are changing. As soon

1054
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:47,040
Speaker 3: as you're in a different moment experientially, the next day,

1055
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 3: you can convince yourself with something else. We lie to ourselves,

1056
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 3: like even even last night, my eighteen month or twenty

1057
01:01:57,320 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 3: month old has not been sleeping well, and I'm just

1058
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 3: like this, this is my life. It's just gonna be

1059
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 3: like this the rest of my life, like just doom

1060
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 3: and gloom.

1061
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 1: I'm never going to sleep again.

1062
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 3: Now I know that's not true, but in the moment,

1063
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 3: that's my whole world in reality.

1064
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny because there was a there was a

1065
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 2: guy who was just you know, I was on a

1066
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 2: conference call and and it was he was kind of

1067
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 2: talking about it. I think he was talking about addiction,

1068
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 2: and he said, you know, in the end, like we

1069
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 2: can lie to everyone else, but we can't lie to ourselves.

1070
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 2: And I thought, I think it's the opposite. Like I,

1071
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:41,919
Speaker 2: in order to lie to others, I have to lie

1072
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 2: to myself. And I lied to myself for so many years. Yeah,

1073
01:02:48,880 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 2: walls did not finally start coming out until I finally

1074
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 2: told myself the truth.

1075
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: Yea.

1076
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 2: And I think we can lie to ourselves for a

1077
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 2: long time, we can justify things for a long time.

1078
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why they say in program, denial stands for

1079
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 3: don't even know I am lying?

1080
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 1: Right, Like, yeah, I didn't even know I was lying.

1081
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 2: Right exactly exactly. Erica. If if if someone is listening

1082
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,439
Speaker 2: to this, you know, going back to what I said

1083
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 2: earlier about you know, maybe they're realizing, hey, something's off,

1084
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 2: like what what would your what would your advice be

1085
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 2: to them about? Like what next step should they take?

1086
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:30,160
Speaker 3: Ah, you know, I think in a in a Christian context,

1087
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 3: you can look at the fruits of the Holy Spirit

1088
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 3: and answer honestly. Is kind of my friend, uh Joshua Carney.

1089
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 3: He says, it's like an evaluation or like a rubric

1090
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 3: right the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

1091
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 1: Am I living this way?

1092
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:48,919
Speaker 3: And And the reality is is we're gonna Richard worse

1093
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 3: as we transmit the pain, we don't transform. So if

1094
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 3: we are transmitting pain in our life by being impatient

1095
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 3: and quick to anger and and all the things that

1096
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 3: are not what God wants for us, can we ask

1097
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 3: ourselves an honest question that how do I need to change?

1098
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 3: So I think allowing ourselves space to pray about it

1099
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 3: and then also be courageous enough to surrender and try

1100
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 3: a different way, because we won't become transformed if we

1101
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:24,360
Speaker 3: cling to control an addiction.

1102
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,800
Speaker 1: As you know, it's all about control. Yeah, it's I

1103
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 1: want to feel how I want to feel, when I

1104
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 1: want to feel it, at what time?

1105
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, exactly exactly, Erica. If people want to here's

1106
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 2: some of your messages. If they want to invite you

1107
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 2: to speak, if they want to reach out to you,

1108
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 2: if they want to see what you're doing, where can

1109
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 2: they go?

1110
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1111
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:49,520
Speaker 3: Well, Instagram. I miss Erica Graham. The reason I misses

1112
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 3: Erica Graham on Instagram is because I actually had Erica

1113
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 3: Graham and then I forgot my password for the handle.

1114
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 3: So it's now missus Erica Graham, And.

1115
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 1: Then I have a podcast called Curiously.

1116
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 3: You can slide into my DMS if you want to

1117
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:06,959
Speaker 3: ask me to speak somewhere or also I'll give you.

1118
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: My email for the show notes as well.

1119
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:11,480
Speaker 2: Awesome and I and I will say, I mean, uh,

1120
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 2: I think we first started talking about us someone introduced

1121
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 2: us via Instagram DMS.

1122
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, shout up to Holly.

1123
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, our good friend, my good friend Holly Tait, who

1124
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 2: I absolutely love and and is friends with you down

1125
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:28,439
Speaker 2: there in Houston.

1126
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 1: Like yes, she goes for our church Chelasia.

1127
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely so, Erica, thank you so much. Thank

1128
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:39,120
Speaker 2: you so much for being vulnerable, for being open, for

1129
01:05:39,200 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 2: being honest. I mean, I'm not trying to get it,

1130
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:44,720
Speaker 2: but I think I love when people say, you know what,

1131
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 2: I haven't shared this before.

1132
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it was just it was a good stretch

1133
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 3: for me. And I think some of it I've been

1134
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 3: afraid to like trigger someone or I don't know. That's

1135
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 3: probably some of my OCD, to be honest. So it

1136
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 3: was good for Mell too.

1137
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:58,439
Speaker 2: I think it's great and I know someone is gonna

1138
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 2: be helped helped by this, and and if you are

1139
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 2: reach out to Erica via the methods that you just

1140
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 2: talked about. We'll put them in the show notes. Erica,

1141
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 2: thank you so much. We'll have to have you on again.

1142
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for having me, and we'll end it there.

1143
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 2: Oh, there are so many good things in there. I think.

1144
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 2: First of all, I love her acronym denial. Don't even

1145
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 2: know I am lying right? Oh, my goodness is that

1146
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 2: I'm a sucker for like a paun or word play

1147
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 2: like that. So that's great. But to me, I think

1148
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 2: the thing that I gravitated really towards is this idea.

1149
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 2: There is no resurrection without a crucifixion. Oh, think about that, right,

1150
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 2: Like so often in recovery and just in life in general,

1151
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:58,560
Speaker 2: healing requires letting things die. Our habits are false identities

1152
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:04,760
Speaker 2: are coping mechanis, the lies that we've believed. Healing requires

1153
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 2: letting things die. There is no resurrection without the crucifixion.

1154
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 2: What do you need to crucify in your life? Right?

1155
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 2: So that something truer can live? And that's hard, Like

1156
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 2: crucifixion is a painful way to die, and killing. Our

1157
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:31,320
Speaker 2: coping mechanisms are unhealthy. Things that we're turning to are numbing.

1158
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 2: It can be painful, right. I talk about in the

1159
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 2: book that scene in The Great Divorce where the angel

1160
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 2: is offering to kill the lizard that's tormenting the man,

1161
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:46,160
Speaker 2: and as the angel starts killing the lizard, the man

1162
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 2: starts screaming in pain, goes, my goodness, this hurts so bad.

1163
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:55,000
Speaker 2: You're gonna kill me, And the angel says, no, I

1164
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 2: told you that I wasn't going to kill you, but

1165
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 2: I didn't say it wasn't going to be painful. And uh, friend,

1166
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 2: I like, I just want to encourage you crucify and

1167
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 2: let die those things, knowing full well that it could

1168
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 2: be harmful, but what is on the other side is

1169
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:18,719
Speaker 2: so worth it. If this episode resonated with you, anything

1170
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 2: in this episode resonated with you, what I ask you

1171
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 2: to do is send it to someone. Send it to

1172
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 2: one person. Maybe it's someone that's been praying for you.

1173
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 2: Maybe it's someone who has been encouraging you to do

1174
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 2: something about what has been going on in your life,

1175
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,200
Speaker 2: and you just want to say, hey, listen, like what

1176
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 2: Erica said about crucifixion and resurrection, like you got to

1177
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 2: hear this, Or maybe there's someone else in your life

1178
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 2: that needs to let some things die. As well go

1179
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:48,480
Speaker 2: ahead and send it. Obviously you can rate and subscribe

1180
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 2: and do all that stuff, but it really I think

1181
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:57,360
Speaker 2: my request is always that you would just share, even

1182
01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 2: if it's twenty seconds of something that's good. Love you

1183
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 2: all listen. I hope you have a great new year.

1184
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 2: You know, we're gonna keep rolling in the new year,

1185
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:10,679
Speaker 2: have some incredible things planned, not just for the podcast,

1186
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:15,080
Speaker 2: some incredible guests, but also I mean, like I'm booked out.

1187
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 2: I have guests lined up and booked and stuff recorded,

1188
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 2: like I think through the first like almost three months

1189
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 2: of the year, and this podcast is hitting so many

1190
01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 2: great topics and it's resonating with so many of you,

1191
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:31,400
Speaker 2: so thank you, and so we're gonna keep preasing on

1192
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 2: the podcast. But there's also gonna be an expansion of

1193
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:39,040
Speaker 2: this ministry, and that will be a hit. That's a

1194
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 2: hint to you of what's to come. I've called this

1195
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 2: a ministry increasingly, and uh, there are gonna be some

1196
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 2: things in the new year that make that a formal thing.

1197
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:52,679
Speaker 2: And there are gonna be ways that you can partner

1198
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 2: on many levels. There's gonna be community aspect. There is

1199
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 2: going to be ways that we can connect and I

1200
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 2: don't mean to like me and you, I mean like

1201
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 2: all the people that are listening and want to go deeper,

1202
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 2: so so excited. I will unveil those to you as

1203
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 2: I am Abel. Love you all. We'll talk to you

1204
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 2: next week again if you Also a quick reminder, if

1205
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 2: you want to watch these episodes, every single episode is

1206
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:22,240
Speaker 2: available to watch. You can do so at the Veritasdailythe

1207
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 2: Veritasdaily dot com, Talk Sing