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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm

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Speaker 1: joined today by Andrea Anderson, who is a Christian business

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Speaker 1: coach and author. She's written a couple of different books.

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Speaker 1: I think you have one coming out here in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six as well, but the one I had the

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Speaker 1: pleasure of reading today was Breadlke Rain and So I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to welcome Andrea to the show and interested in

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Speaker 1: our conversation. So welcome Andrea. Thanks for being on the show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely So, I I've done a fair amount of consulting myself,

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Speaker 1: so I'm kind of interested in your background and how

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Speaker 1: you got into consulting, what really drove you there and

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Speaker 1: maybe what your passions are. So why don't you introduce

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Speaker 1: yourself a little bit to the audience and give a

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Speaker 1: bit of your background.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, So one of the things I like to

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Speaker 3: start with, especially when I'm talking to a Christian audience,

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Speaker 3: is that I was not always Christian.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I grew up.

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Speaker 3: In what I call a cultural Christian home, and then

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Speaker 3: I went through a period of being atheist agnostic, kind

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Speaker 3: of bounced between the two in my early teens to

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Speaker 3: kind of mid twenties, and so it was out of

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Speaker 3: that actually, through the death of my grandfather that got

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Speaker 3: me to reconsider. So I like to share it because

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Speaker 3: I think it's really easy to make assumptions, especially when

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Speaker 3: you're talking to someone in a format like this, like assuming, oh,

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Speaker 3: like she's always known the look, and that's so far

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Speaker 3: from the truth. So that's a little bit on the

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Speaker 3: personal side. On the business side, the consulting, really, where

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Speaker 3: I came into it was out of a time of

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Speaker 3: prayer where I was asking the Lord, how do I

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Speaker 3: actually help people on a transformative level. This came out

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Speaker 3: of a different business that I had at the time,

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Speaker 3: where I was sensing there was more going on for

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Speaker 3: the people that I was encountering than in this case

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Speaker 3: it was an organizing business. Then it was just like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I don't know how to organize my stuff, and the

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Speaker 3: idea of going into a space organizing it but going

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Speaker 3: back to chaos wasn't sitting well with me. So I

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Speaker 3: again I was asking the Lord, how do I help

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Speaker 3: people on a transformative level, And for the first time

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Speaker 3: ever in my faith walk, I heard almost audibly life coach.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was spoken into my spirit. And this

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Speaker 3: was in the early two thousands, like coaching was virtually

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Speaker 3: unheard of. I'm like, what is a life coach?

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, am I making this up?

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Speaker 3: And so I was like, okay, Lord, if this is you,

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Speaker 3: not me, I'll google it and it'll be a thing,

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Speaker 3: which it was. So that's where I got my certification.

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Speaker 3: I'll skip over a lot of the middle parts of

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Speaker 3: my story, but really the while I am here to

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Speaker 3: work with Christian business owners and help them apply a

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Speaker 3: surrendered strategy method to their business to maximize their profitability

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Speaker 3: make it sustainable. Really, what my work represents is the

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Speaker 3: deeper level transformation that God wants to do in them

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Speaker 3: and also through them, because that's what lasts into eternity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting. So you were in the organization business,

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Speaker 1: if I'm understanding correctly, you were doing more like, you know,

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Speaker 1: helping people clean up the mess of their lives in

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Speaker 1: physical spaces. Yeah, and then and then kind of pivoted

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Speaker 1: over into more of a symbolic organizing lives, you know,

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Speaker 1: symbolic theological organizing lives.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's really cool.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fun to see how God works.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, tell me a little bit more about your

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of non Christian background. I grew up.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like we have a lot in common because

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Speaker 1: I grew up Lutheran. I should say I grew up

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Speaker 1: attending a Lutheran church, but really just not caring one

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Speaker 1: way or the other, you know, about being a Lutheran

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Speaker 1: or particularly about being Christian. Didn't have any sort of

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Speaker 1: interest in Jesus per Se was really I just saw,

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Speaker 1: you know, what I was learning at church is a

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Speaker 1: good way to stay out of trouble, and so I'm

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Speaker 1: interested to just dive a little bit more into that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I'm originally from Canada and before we moved to

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Speaker 3: the States, which is where I live now. We went

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Speaker 3: to an Anglican church, so I equivalent like Anglican episcopals,

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Speaker 3: like the parallel to that in the States and Lutheran

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Speaker 3: and a methodis is like kind of like the OG

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Speaker 3: like the OG churches from on the Protestant side, and

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Speaker 3: so yeat. Likewise, we went to church. My parents were

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Speaker 3: heavily involved. We loved the church that we went to.

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Speaker 3: It was very family oriented. So I have fond memories

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Speaker 3: of like going to Sunday School, being involved in the

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Speaker 3: things the church would put on for families, helping in

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Speaker 3: Sunday School as I got older. But yeah, that idea

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Speaker 3: of a relationship with Jesus in any in my nuclear family,

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Speaker 3: like that idea was if somebody had asked us that

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Speaker 3: we'd been like, what do you mean, Like, we go

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Speaker 3: to church, we do the things, like what are you

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Speaker 3: talking about a relationship. And so when we moved to

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Speaker 3: the States, my mom especially wanted to try and find

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Speaker 3: another church because it's just like this is what we do,

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Speaker 3: you know, And we did land on one in an

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Speaker 3: Episcopal church, but it wasn't it wasn't vibrant on many levels.

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Speaker 3: And again, when you especially when you don't have a

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Speaker 3: relationship with the Lord. I see picking churches and I

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Speaker 3: talk to put.

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Speaker 2: This in the book. It's like it's like a restaurant.

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Speaker 2: It's like where are we going to eat today? You know.

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Speaker 3: So at some point, like my dad was, I could

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Speaker 3: tell and I was in my early teens, I could

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Speaker 3: tell that he wasn't really interested, and at some point

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Speaker 3: I think he was just like I don't want to go.

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Speaker 3: So I was like, well, Dad's not going, I'm not going. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And then what really kicked me into that atheism agnostic

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Speaker 3: period was I was in I think seventh grade and

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Speaker 3: we were learning about evolution, and for whatever reason, I

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Speaker 3: don't know why, my conclusion was, well, that explains the

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Speaker 3: way the need for God. So I was kind of like,

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Speaker 3: you know, washed my hands of him and I'm like

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Speaker 3: going on my married way and unbelief. But that that's

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Speaker 3: kind of what the early stage.

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Speaker 1: Like very good. Yeah, And so you came to faith

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Speaker 1: and got into really life coaching. Were you are a

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Speaker 1: Christian at that point? Correct or no? Yes, kind of

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Speaker 1: clarify the timeline, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Know, that's that's good clarification. Yes, Like I.

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Speaker 3: So I don't have an exact date of belief. I

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Speaker 3: know it was somewhere around shoot thousand and like three

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Speaker 3: two thousand and five, So yeah, somewhere around there, like

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Speaker 3: around twenty years ago. But just because I God was

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Speaker 3: so my grandfather died in the time that I was

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Speaker 3: dating my husband, and when we got engaged and were

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Speaker 3: playing for a marriage, like by that point my heart

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Speaker 3: had softened, softened enough where it's like, oh, I want.

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Speaker 2: A minister to marry us. But I know I wasn't

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Speaker 2: a believer at that point.

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Speaker 3: It was just the Lord was bringing me along because

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Speaker 3: my grandfather died, my husband and I were dating, got

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Speaker 3: engaged and all that. So, and then when I became

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Speaker 3: pregnant with our first child we have four, I know

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Speaker 3: at some point there was some sort of belief that

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Speaker 3: was happening. I just don't have that exact day. When

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Speaker 3: I moved from you know, curious like I think there's

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Speaker 3: something there to Oh, yes, I need to accept christ.

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Speaker 1: Very cool. Well, talk to me a little bit about

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Speaker 1: so you're you're now into Christian business coaching, and one

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Speaker 1: of the things you said just a minute ago was

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Speaker 1: you were tired of organized, helping people organize and then

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Speaker 1: seeing things fall back into chaos. And I will say

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Speaker 1: sadly that sometimes my experience consulting was just that, you know,

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Speaker 1: it was like whenever I had institutions keep calling me

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Speaker 1: back and calling me back, I'm going but I could

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Speaker 1: have sworn we had this fixed the last time, like

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Speaker 1: what happened? So how do you deal with that ongoing? Now?

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Speaker 1: Is that a shift in your consulting practice that you

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Speaker 1: found that that that you get a little bit more

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Speaker 1: of a during or i'm sorry, a durable result out

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Speaker 1: of what you're doing now?

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Speaker 3: Yes, And I love that you ask that question because

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Speaker 3: this is something that the Lord has been bringing into

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Speaker 3: greater clarity about, like one what I need to look

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Speaker 3: out for in my own business, but also really look

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Speaker 3: out for in clients.

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Speaker 2: And one of.

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Speaker 3: The themes that he's highlighted is how self reliance and control

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Speaker 3: that's what creates like the chaos the disarray. Because I've

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Speaker 3: noticed that when you are called to lead in some ways,

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Speaker 3: so in this case a business, you you're a lot

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Speaker 3: of your default and what your inherent characteristics are to

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Speaker 3: get things done, Like you typically have a high capacity,

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Speaker 3: you're very comfortable doing, achieving, making decisions, and you need

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Speaker 3: that as a leader. Otherwise you're not going to be leading,

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Speaker 3: You'll want to follow you.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So, but because we live in a fallen world, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's always like kind of like a shadow aspect some

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Speaker 3: of our gifts where gets distorted. And so what happens

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Speaker 3: is when we have these natural inherent characteristics that on

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Speaker 3: the one side are helpful and needed at some point

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Speaker 3: there they actually work against us because we overstep the boundaries.

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Speaker 2: And what I've.

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Speaker 3: Noticed for myself as well as in clients is like

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Speaker 3: we often like get in the weeds and we're trying

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Speaker 3: to approach, especially when it's a business and a vision

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Speaker 3: the Lord has given you. We're trying to solve the

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Speaker 3: issues like at the ground level instead of pulling our

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Speaker 3: eyes up and like building and moving from like a

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Speaker 3: top down aspect. And so I know the reason that

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Speaker 3: my clients get lasting results and I don't see that

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Speaker 3: repeating pattern of chaos is because I'm constantly asking them

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Speaker 3: what is the Lord saying. I'm constantly pointing their eyes

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Speaker 3: to him and asking them to get clear and to

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Speaker 3: get confirmation of like what what is the blueprint? What

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Speaker 3: is he asking you to do? And then we move

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Speaker 3: from there, I mean and there's a lot of pieces

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Speaker 3: to it. I'm also listening for where are they out

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Speaker 3: of sync with God? Where's that misalignment coming in? Why

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Speaker 3: is it there? And then we have to pull that out.

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Speaker 3: So it's like shifting patterns, like removing disruptive patterns. And

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Speaker 3: because we have the Lord like he we're building for

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Speaker 3: essentially a turn eternal results, right, So we're looking at

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Speaker 3: what is the deeper transformation and foundational work the Lord

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Speaker 3: wants to do and in him as long as your

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Speaker 3: heart is I want what you want, Lord, which is

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Speaker 3: why my clients come to me. That's what they want.

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Speaker 3: That's why it's it lasts. It's also why when I'm

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Speaker 3: working with clients in one on one and intense why

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Speaker 3: I only work with Christians because I can work on

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Speaker 3: surface level business issues with non believers. But when you're

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Speaker 3: talking talking about transformation and lasting results that only comes

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Speaker 3: through Jesus.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. So I teach on leadership for Wheaton

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Speaker 1: College and one of the things that I talk about

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Speaker 1: in class is that leadership should emerge from discipleship. And

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Speaker 1: it just strikes me that we have some resonance on

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Speaker 1: that is that you know you're as a leader. You're

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Speaker 1: not just deciding that you are going to follow Jesus

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Speaker 1: until it's inconvenient to do so, and then you're going

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Speaker 1: to implement a business strategy whether he likes it or not.

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Speaker 1: You're trying to actually follow him even in your business practices.

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Speaker 1: Not simply from an ethical standpoint, although I think that's

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Speaker 1: important too, but from a directional and transformational perspective, yes, exactly.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 1: Do you work primarily then one on one kind of

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Speaker 1: with leaders?

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Speaker 3: That is, That's how I do love to work with

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Speaker 3: clients because well, and I'm sure you've experienced this too,

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Speaker 3: when you work one on one, when you have somebody's

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Speaker 3: attention all on you, like, you just get to you know,

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Speaker 3: get you get that momentum, you get to the root

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Speaker 3: and also the clarity a lot faster. I do also

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Speaker 3: have a group component as well.

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Speaker 2: For people.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes it's for one on one clients who are ready

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Speaker 3: to transition from kind of more of that intense work,

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Speaker 3: but they like that continued focus. And then sometimes it's

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Speaker 3: people will come to me through group and then move into.

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Speaker 2: One on one with me.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, the one on one and also because again

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Speaker 3: I'm listening for where there's misalignment. And I can do

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Speaker 3: that in a group setting to a certain extent, but

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Speaker 3: really it gets to a point where I'm like, I

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Speaker 3: really just need to be in the room one on

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Speaker 3: one with them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's interesting. I you know, as you're talking

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Speaker 1: about it, I do mostly organizational stuff when I do it,

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Speaker 1: so it does tend to Yes, the leader needs to

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Speaker 1: sort of be guiding and directing and figuring out where

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Speaker 1: they want to go. And when I've had those opportunities

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Speaker 1: to sort of help leaders, I do see better results.

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Speaker 1: I see more durable results. When I'm just working with

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Speaker 1: an organization and kind of implementing or trying to optimize

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Speaker 1: one area, you don't see it as durable. Things tend

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Speaker 1: to slip. And I think it's partially because you're not

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Speaker 1: really you know, you're aligning a system, but then all

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Speaker 1: the people who are involved in that system really have

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Speaker 1: to be on the same page. You're assuming a lot,

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Speaker 1: I guess, is what I'm saying when you're working on

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Speaker 1: that system's approach and you're not really addressing the people

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Speaker 1: side of it as much.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And in that kind of setting, I mean, you

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Speaker 3: have a lot of different personalities and strengths and yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's like have they bought into it? How do they

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Speaker 3: really feel I'm sure from an organizational level, like are

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Speaker 3: they being compared held versus like when you're working one.

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Speaker 2: On one with the leader, you assume like they want

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Speaker 2: to be there.

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Speaker 3: You know, they're not being in most cases like being

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Speaker 3: for I guess it could be a they're not like

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Speaker 3: the CEO. I guess they could be told to do this,

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Speaker 3: But most of the time it's like, Okay, I'm going

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Speaker 3: with you. But yeah, yeah, that's also why I believe

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Speaker 3: too with that, I mean, there definitely are effective ways

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Speaker 3: to do groups, and I have seen in the way

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Speaker 3: that I do group sessions that clients do get the

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Speaker 3: results that they want because again I'm putting it the

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Speaker 3: court more in the Lord's hands, like helping them to

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Speaker 3: look at him.

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Speaker 2: But I think a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of times in groups, in group settings, yeah, it's yeah,

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Speaker 3: it just caps what you're able to do without some

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Speaker 3: like one on one On the side.

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Speaker 1: I tend to agree. Interesting, Yeah, I mean I wonder

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Speaker 1: so as you've as you done the consulting with business leaders,

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Speaker 1: how much of this do you find really carries over

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Speaker 1: into the church. It's it's difficult for me sometimes to

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Speaker 1: to walk into a church and not notice things that,

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Speaker 1: you know, when I've gotten you know, if I've just

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Speaker 1: especially if I've just gotten done with the consulting engagement,

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Speaker 1: I sort of have that mindset and I walk in

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, geez, we could fix that. How

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Speaker 1: do you How do you think about that? When you're

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Speaker 1: you know, sitting in church with a pastor and with

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Speaker 1: other you know, leaders, do you see them sort of

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Speaker 1: you find yourself wishing you could you could help them

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Speaker 1: as well?

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Speaker 3: Yes, Like, thankfully I'm at a church where I feel

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Speaker 3: like the leadership is as solid as leadership can be,

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Speaker 3: you know, not like not we're not going to find perfection.

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Speaker 2: Right, but.

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Speaker 3: So I appreciate that. I appreciate the heart and intent

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Speaker 3: at least the leaders at our church approach approach things.

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Speaker 3: I think what I see happening is more in that

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Speaker 3: area of the like what we do from Sunday's service,

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Speaker 3: like the discipleship, the application, because like as I listen

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Speaker 3: to the messages of the sermon, and especially lately it's

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Speaker 3: been interesting, it's like what our pastor has been sharing,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, yep, like these are the insights that he

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Speaker 3: has been showing me and like where where the gaps are,

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Speaker 3: where the challenges are. But then what I think, and

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Speaker 3: especially given the work with clients, I'm like, okay, but

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Speaker 3: how many people that are sitting here are actually applying it?

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Speaker 3: And because that's what happens when I have clients coming

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Speaker 3: to me, It's like there's this kind of I know,

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Speaker 3: God needs to be part of it, but what does

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Speaker 3: that actually look like? Like people still think a little

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Speaker 3: bit more like the God box, like the work box,

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Speaker 3: the family, So it's more that and also appreciating that

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Speaker 3: the leadership of our churches only have so much capacit

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: So so yeah, just more along those lines.

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Speaker 3: But I will say when I when I more like

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Speaker 3: anecdotally hear about challenges in other churches where it's a

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Speaker 3: leadership issue, like that's where I'm like, oh that, like

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Speaker 3: I would love to help correct that, but that's not

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Speaker 3: my calling at this moment.

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Speaker 2: It is businesses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I appreciate that. I just kind of wanted

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Speaker 1: to hear you talk through some of that. Let me

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Speaker 1: let me pivot a little bit and maybe talk about

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Speaker 1: some of the ideas I was reading about your website.

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Speaker 1: I read about in your book. I'm interested just to

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Speaker 1: hear a little bit about how you navigate the the

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Speaker 1: ideas of following God and success in today's world. That's

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Speaker 1: one of those topics that I've always had a little

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Speaker 1: bit of trouble with, you know, trying to figure out like, yes,

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Speaker 1: following the Lord is what we're supposed to do, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't always lead to the sort of success that

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Speaker 1: we're looking for as far as I can tell. And

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Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if you can talk through that a

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Speaker 1: little bit and kind of help me understand your perspective

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Speaker 1: on it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's interesting because that's actually what before this

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Speaker 3: podcast says, like, Okay, Lord, what are we going to

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Speaker 3: be talking about?

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Speaker 2: What do you want to share?

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Speaker 3: And the problem is how we define success, right because

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Speaker 3: and I think when I was when I had reached

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Speaker 3: out to you, and it's like, would you be interested

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Speaker 3: in having this conversation what the Lord has shown me?

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Speaker 3: And where that where the problems come in, is where

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Speaker 3: we confuse what we know with what we actually believe. Right.

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Speaker 3: So we know, for example, God is trustworthy, but in

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Speaker 3: certain situations do we believe he's actually trustworthy?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 3: That is where all of the problems come in. And

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Speaker 3: so when it comes to success, we have to be

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Speaker 3: very careful about how we are individually defining it because

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Speaker 3: and the way the application that I see for business,

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Speaker 3: for example, is I do believe if God has called

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Speaker 3: you to business, it is meant to be financially successful,

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Speaker 3: because that's actually the definition of a business. Like if

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Speaker 3: you don't have a bit, if you don't have a

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Speaker 3: financial success, like you have an expensive hobby or a

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Speaker 3: liability or a self funded nonprofit. Right Like, to me,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't make sense that God would call you to

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Speaker 3: a model that literally means you are building for profitability.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but we also.

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Speaker 3: Have to keep in mind profitability is one aspect of success,

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Speaker 3: it's also how we are building in the process. And

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Speaker 3: I really believe that God is more interested and cares

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Speaker 3: more about our internal and eternal success then ultimately what's

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Speaker 3: happening on the outside.

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Speaker 2: Right. So, I mean I've seen for.

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Speaker 3: Myself that certainly marriage and motherhood has definitely refined me,

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Speaker 3: but being called to entrepreneurship or really whatever you're called to,

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Speaker 3: He is going to refine you through it because we

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Speaker 3: need to be purified, right, And so it is a

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Speaker 3: trust walk. It's a faith walk. And what I've realized, yeah,

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Speaker 3: through challenges and through like really hard moments, is that one,

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Speaker 3: if I have a financially successful business but my health

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Speaker 3: and my relationships are compromised, well, is God really going

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Speaker 3: to be like yay you No, it's going to be

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Speaker 3: like that's a problem, right, Or or if you are

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Speaker 3: not building according to how he is asking you, if

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Speaker 3: you're saying I don't believe you God like that you've

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Speaker 3: called me to this, or I'm deciding I'm calling all

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Speaker 3: the shots and it's actually he's like, okay, but I'm

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Speaker 3: going to cap your profitability even if you're like succeeding

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Speaker 3: in other areas of life. Again, it's like it's inconsistent.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I guess what I come back to is

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Speaker 3: if we're sincere in saying your will not mine, that

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Speaker 3: also means his definition of success, his timeline of success,

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Speaker 3: and like all of the pieces. Yeah, yeah, in that part, if.

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Speaker 1: I go back, you know, you mentioned you know some

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Speaker 1: people still think about the god box, the business box,

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Speaker 1: the family boxing, and we have these sort of this

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Speaker 1: way of compartmentalizing, right, and it isn't you know, it's

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Speaker 1: unlike you know, jumping into the water, right, it's impossible

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Speaker 1: not to get wet when you immerse yourself in water,

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Speaker 1: if you're just wet. But when we box things up,

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Speaker 1: we can tend to just sort of let God leak

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Speaker 1: into these other areas when we when we feel like

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Speaker 1: it's necessary. Right, I'll be good enough at family, good

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Speaker 1: enough at business, you know, I'll be a nice ethical person.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, as far as letting Christ lead this, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, what does he really know about the

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Speaker 1: financial services industry or you know, whatever have you. And

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Speaker 1: so there there's an interesting like just going back to

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Speaker 1: that idea kind of what I what I think I

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Speaker 1: hear you saying, is that if we're to give ourselves

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Speaker 1: to God with all we are and have right sort

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Speaker 1: of that Deuteronomy six four and five Christ, you know,

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Speaker 1: mind soul strength. He repeats that in the New Testament,

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Speaker 1: we're really looking at it as there is a capacity

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Speaker 1: that each one of us has to do that, and

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Speaker 1: there's a there's a sense in which, yes, I can

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Speaker 1: give all I have, but I really can't get more.

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Speaker 1: And and if I if I'm giving part of myself

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Speaker 1: away to business and ruining my health, ruining my relationships,

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Speaker 1: ruining my I'm not really loving God with all I

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Speaker 1: am and have. I'm really loving business and trying to

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Speaker 1: tie God in, and so that success comes as we

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Speaker 1: figure out how to order those loves appropriately. Is that

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Speaker 1: a fair sort of way to riff on that, I

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Speaker 1: guess yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's always like first things first, right, God first,

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Speaker 3: and we know he does want to be in all

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Speaker 3: areas of our life, like it isn't just it isn't

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Speaker 3: just partial or when we decide or you know, we're

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Speaker 3: like how you.

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Speaker 2: Know, it's like all the things and yes and like

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Speaker 2: from there.

438
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 3: So if he's if he's called you to marriage, then

439
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 3: it's also you know, God marriage, kids.

440
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: Like all of that. But yeah, it's it's a balance and.

441
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 3: It's also highly personal. I think that's also why I

442
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 3: like one on one work because God, God doesn't like,

443
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 3: he doesn't work in cookie He doesn't create cookie cutters.

444
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: So while there's principles that apply to all of us,

445
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 3: like the nuances of that are going to look different.

446
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 3: And yeah, so that anyway, it's just like a fascinating journey.

447
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: No, I agree, And I mean I think just if

448
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 1: I think back over my career, just through time, I

449
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: think I would react and respond. And if I went

450
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: back into my old position that I left when I

451
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: was really burnt out, when I had decided that, you know,

452
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 1: work was more important than family, and you know, work

453
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 1: was more important than health, like I was that guy,

454
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: I went back into that same position today, I'd be okay,

455
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: I'd handle it completely differently because I've had I've had

456
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: this sort of time of refinement where I don't know

457
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 1: that I meant to submit to God. I knew I

458
00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: needed to change something and went in a direction that

459
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 1: I didn't expect, you know, But I'd be lying if

460
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,679
Speaker 1: I said it felt it felt more haphazard to me

461
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: than it did determinative. Right, Yes, But I do think

462
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 1: that that refining that happens across that time is really crucial,

463
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: and so having someone like you come alongside and say,

464
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: you know, kind of nudge you in those directions would

465
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: have been really helpful. I had that occasionally, but I

466
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: think everybody sort of needs it m hm.

467
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 3: Right, because we all have blind spots, and also because

468
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 3: in our mind, like we can create this echo chamber

469
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 3: where our thoughts sound good to us. But the other

470
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: piece of the Lord has been having me lean into

471
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 3: is really the language that people are using, right, so

472
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 3: when we're talking, we're not always aware of word choices

473
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 3: that we have that are actually where we're speaking death

474
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 3: or partnering in agreement with what essentially becomes a word

475
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: curse instead of speaking life or believing life as well.

476
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 3: It's just like it's we just don't have we're not

477
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 3: able to step outside ourselves to see that. And so

478
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 3: that's why, yes, like when you work with someone, why

479
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: we see if it's the right person to work with

480
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 3: that acceleration on that trajectory. And I've seen that even

481
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: for myself, Like if I think back to even just

482
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: last year, the amount of growth personally and business wise

483
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 3: came be caught out of It really came with working

484
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: with this one person who was able to call out

485
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 3: things that I hadn't been able to see or hadn't

486
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 3: realized how profoundly it was actually impacting many areas of

487
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 3: my life. And once that was called out, it's like

488
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 3: whoah okay, Like it was hard and painful, but it

489
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: was also exactly what I needed.

490
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: And had I not.

491
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 3: Gone through that, I don't know that I would have

492
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: ever come to that realization. Or it's just like at

493
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 3: what point would I have come to that realization, right,

494
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 3: And it's consistent with the way that God has what

495
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: he has written into the foundation of the world, which

496
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 3: is we're created for a relationship because he is a

497
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 3: god of relationship.

498
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: So you don't see solo heroes in the Bible. Even Jesus,

499
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 2: although he could very well have.

500
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 3: Operated solo, he didn't right now, He didn't need refinement,

501
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 3: but everybody else on planet Earth does.

502
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: And so it's like that.

503
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 3: Aspect of iron sharpening iron, like if we try to,

504
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 3: if we think that we can figure out some of

505
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 3: these things on our own, that is a huge level

506
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 3: of self deception.

507
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting, and I mean this kind

508
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: of goes along with your new book as I understand it, right,

509
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: thirty three Demotionals from the Life of Jesus for you know,

510
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: sort of with some lessons for Christian Entrepreneurs. I know

511
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: that's not the title. Maybe you give the title.

512
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 3: What is the Rock Solid Business, thirty three Lessons from

513
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 3: Jesus for Entrepreneurs.

514
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: I got the thirty three right, I knew that, yest. Yeah,

515
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: rocks allid business And that's coming out twenty twenty six,

516
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: But is it already out on Amazon or did I

517
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: just missma.

518
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 3: No, it's not, it's not out. I was going to

519
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 3: do it this month, but that date will probably be

520
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: pushed back again a bit based on some other things

521
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: God has brought up.

522
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: But yes, like the.

523
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I know how that goes. So I guess

524
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: the you know, as I think about the life of Jesus,

525
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: I think one of the things I'm always cautious of

526
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: is to say, yeah, I agree with you, Jesus didn't

527
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 1: need refinement, and yet he shows us the cadence of

528
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: life necessary to be obedient to the Father and all things,

529
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: and that it wasn't refining for him. It was just natural. Yeah,

530
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: it was the organic way that he knew he had

531
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: to live life. And I don't think he was doing

532
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: it as an instructional exercise. Maybe partially showing us how

533
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: to do it. But I don't ever get the sense

534
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: that Jesus is like, Hey, I don't really need to

535
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: go off into the wilderness by myself and pray I

536
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: don't actually need to do that. I'm going to do

537
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 1: it so that you can kind of see it, because

538
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: you need the refinement. But I don't I think he's

539
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: really in his humanness, living this life and recognizing where

540
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: his strength and power comes from. And I always find

541
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: that to be a really important distinction so that we

542
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: don't collapse Jesus into Yeah, he didn't need to do

543
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: any of the It's like Jesus didn't really need to eat,

544
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: but he did because it would have been weird if

545
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: he never ate, you know, It's like, no, he's having

546
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: the human experience. He doesn't have the sin that we have,

547
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: but he's showing us the practices that need to be

548
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: done in order to live in obedience to the Father.

549
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think you actually for saying that, because

550
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 3: what I meant by refinement is like he already was pure, right,

551
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 3: Like he's perfectly got, so he didn't need to have

552
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 3: like the impurities were fined out of.

553
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 2: Him because he was already perfect. We need that part

554
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: of it.

555
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 3: But yes, like I do believe he he would take

556
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 3: that time away because he knew from how critical it

557
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 3: would be to make sure he is focused on what

558
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 3: God was actually asking him, like that strengthening, right, Like

559
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: that's why we go to him. It's like the one

560
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 3: of the most heartbreaking things that I hear is when

561
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 3: people think of prayer or worship or like any of

562
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 3: those disciplines that we do as like a checklist, because

563
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 3: it is easy to fall into that instead of like, no,

564
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 3: this is an invitation from your father to get to

565
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 3: know him better, to be strengthened, to be able to

566
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: be aware and stand against the things of the world

567
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 3: that pull us out of fellowship and out of alignment

568
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: with him.

569
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: He finds the people kind of thought into that because

570
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: they don't want to take the time or don't feel

571
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: like they have the time.

572
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and so that's a belief, right, a belief

573
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 3: that they're happy. The belief is if I if I

574
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 3: take the time to stop and pray or sit with

575
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 3: the Lord. I've heard some people see that as lazy,

576
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 3: like they think, oh, I should be doing not just

577
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 3: sitting there. Sometimes yeah, it's they start to think that

578
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 3: that's because they're not doing they're not stewarding. But James,

579
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 3: as I thought about, okay, why like what is really

580
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 3: underlying that belief? And if you think about someone, the

581
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 3: reason we don't follow through with something that we know

582
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 3: to be good is because there's a belief that we're

583
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 3: holding about that that's like pulling us out of that.

584
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: And what as I've asked Christians business owner or not, like,

585
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 3: what it is? What do they believe they.

586
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: Can hear God? For example, I'll just ask them that.

587
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 3: And it's amazing the number of Christians who say, I

588
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 3: don't know if I know how to hear God, or

589
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 3: I don't believe that I can hear God. So, if

590
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 3: you think about it, sitting with God and praying is

591
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 3: essentially it isn't just telling him what you want, although

592
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 3: we do that. The understanding is I want to hear

593
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: from God. Well, if you don't believe you'll hear from

594
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 3: him or you're not sure, well, how motivated are you

595
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 3: going to be to want to do a practice that

596
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 3: like causes you to just feel act right? And So

597
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 3: when I encounter Christians who have that, I'm like, well, okay,

598
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 3: first of all, if you believe in Jesus, like let's

599
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 3: make sure, yeah, if you've accepted him as your Lord

600
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 3: and savior, then you need to stand on the promises

601
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 3: like one, as you're a good shepherd, he promises you

602
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 3: will hear his voice.

603
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: And because as you have.

604
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 3: The Lord, he promised the Holy Spirit, which literally is

605
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 3: our communication line to the Lord.

606
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: So it's like you need to activate that.

607
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 3: And so that's one of the things I try to do,

608
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 3: like whether it's with clients or leading retreats or whatever,

609
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 3: it's like, let's practice like cultivating your ability to hear

610
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 3: from the Lord, because then you're going to be more

611
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 3: likely to show up in that prayer time or to

612
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 3: follow through with some of these things where it's just

613
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 3: like about communion with the Lord and not something that

614
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 3: makes you feel like you've done your due diligence for

615
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 3: the day.

616
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there is a subtle but very real difference

617
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: between viewing this as something that I check a box

618
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 1: for and Okay, now I've done my piety for the day,

619
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: I can move on, versus really deeply understanding that obedience

620
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: opens the world up to us. In other words, it

621
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: it gives God opportunities to really show himself to us.

622
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: And probably the better way to say that is it

623
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: opens our eyes to recognize what God is already doing.

624
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: If we're always constantly just trying to take care of

625
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 1: the stuff ourselves, we tend to think that we're taking

626
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: care of it ourselves firstus. If we really are following Christ,

627
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 1: we start to recognize that God is actually doing things

628
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: in our life he's caring for things, he's providing. So yeah,

629
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: it's really fascinating dynamic. I sense that even in my

630
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: own life, where you do have these sort of subtle

631
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 1: falsehoods that tend to drive your behavior in one way

632
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: or another, you really start to believe about yourself and

633
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: that those have to be You have to be pretty

634
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: consistent about even questioning your own thoughts and asking is

635
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: that true though, really? Or am I just sort of

636
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: blocking myself out of seeing God do something really spectacular?

637
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah?

638
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And God gave me an acronym that describes that.

639
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 3: I call it the faith optimization gap. And so the

640
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 3: letter's fog fog or walking.

641
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: Frond of bug.

642
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 3: And again, it's that difference between what you know and

643
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 3: what you really believe because if you if you think

644
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 3: about it, belief belief drives us because if God didn't

645
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 3: write the need to believe, or like, if that wasn't

646
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 3: the core of how He created us, we wouldn't know

647
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 3: we needed to believe in him, or there would be

648
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: no like it would just like interrupt our ability to

649
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: have faith.

650
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: At all.

651
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's always it is being aware of where

652
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 3: of that difference, that gap between what we we know

653
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 3: or what we think in our natural mind and where

654
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 3: true belief actually resides that is consistent with God's character

655
00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: and his principles and his truth.

656
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I found it really fascinating. Over the last year

657
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: or so, there's been a lot of research done on

658
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: wisdom out of cognitive psychology, not like biblical wisdom or

659
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: theological wisdom, but just wisdom in general, and the way

660
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: they tend to boil it down. And this is a

661
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: way over simplification. But we don't have that much time,

662
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 1: so you kind of sit back and say, well, what's

663
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: relevant in the moment. And it seems to me that

664
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: that way of understanding wisdom, what's relevant in the moment,

665
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: how do I act in line with what's prioritized in

666
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: that moment? What's really relevant to me in that moment.

667
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: For one, it does tend to focus on your skills,

668
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: your capacities, your priorities. If I walk out into the

669
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: garage it's my pad, example, and I see a bike

670
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: hanging on the wall, but I can't ride a bike,

671
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: it's irrelevant to me as a mode of transportation, right,

672
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: Whereas if I had the skill level of rite it,

673
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: I could use it in that way. But for me,

674
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: it's a and so there's a capacity issue there. But ultimately,

675
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times, what I'm finding, even

676
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: as I think about that sort of concept in my

677
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: own life, is that I just don't always believe that

678
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: God is that relevant in the moment, and so I'm

679
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: tending to sort of push him to the side of

680
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: my life and say, you're great. I know it, you're awesome.

681
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: I know you created the world. But I have this

682
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: task to do and I'd really like to get it done,

683
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: and so maybe just you know, let me just make

684
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: sure you know the infinitely relevant God, but in this moment,

685
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 1: this email really matters or you know, whatever it is.

686
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: And it's like, man, I'm really pushing I'm really pushing

687
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: God out of my life. I'm marginalizing him in a

688
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: way that I shouldn't be.

689
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it isn't just like just.

690
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: A minute, God, I'll get back to after that, which

691
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 3: I mean, we can laugh about it, but.

692
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like it's really what happens.

693
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it just speaks to his patience and who

694
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: he is, and he hangs with us like knowing that

695
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 3: that's how we can treat him. It's just like, wh'ere

696
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 3: our priorities, where what we can see in front.

697
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 2: Of us.

698
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 3: Is what we gravitate toward, which is why I think

699
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 3: Scripture says like faith is being sure of what you

700
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 3: hope for in certain of what you do not.

701
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: See and see.

702
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 3: Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Please God,

703
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 3: because we have to believe that he exists and that

704
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 3: he rewards right those who seek him. And yeah, so

705
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 3: it's really like that testing what do we really believe

706
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:51,720
Speaker 3: about Him in those moments where something tangible feels pressing.

707
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's a good word. We're kind of coming

708
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: in toward the end of our time, and so I

709
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: usually have guests answer sort of one last question. So

710
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: I'm interested to get your take on this. You don't

711
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 1: have to answer it based on anything we've talked about,

712
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: So whatever you want to say is great. But here's

713
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: the question. What do you think the church needs to

714
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: be doing that maybe it's not doing right now or

715
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: it's not doing quite as well to be and make

716
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: more faithful disciples today.

717
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: Ooh, that is a big question. Okay.

718
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 3: I So I was going through the Bible again like

719
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 3: in December, like the whole Bible in December, and one

720
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 3: of the things that the Lord had highlighted going through

721
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 3: it this time is it has to do with the

722
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 3: part of relationships and how we are to be in

723
00:40:53,920 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 3: relationship with one another. And I feel like where the

724
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 3: modern day church has evolved to is like this feel

725
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 3: good church. I don't believe that, at least in my perception.

726
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 3: I don't believe that as a church body, we really

727
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 3: are following through with the.

728
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: Church discipline model that Jesus outlined.

729
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

730
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 3: I I think it's very challenging for church leadership to

731
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 3: hold this tension between like we want to love others,

732
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 3: but like what do we do when someone is clearly

733
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 3: walking out of step with the Lord? And I think

734
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 3: there is a hesitation to correct because of the messages

735
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 3: that we get from culture. Right, it's kind of just

736
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 3: like do what makes you happy and don't tell me

737
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 3: what to do and being judgmental, and because it's really

738
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 3: easy for people just to walk down the door to

739
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 3: another or walk down the street to another church. Right.

740
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, And.

741
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 3: I wish I had thought of some other specific scriptures

742
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 3: but to but just looking at how we are to

743
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 3: be in relationship with other and refining if you think

744
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 3: about refining is not meant to be a gentle process.

745
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 3: Like when God talks about refining, the images that go

746
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 3: with it are a refiner's fire and pruning, right, And

747
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 3: if you've garmened and you know what pruning is like,

748
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 3: it's pretty yeah, you know, you look like you're ruining

749
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 3: the plant. Like it's you know, we're not I don't know,

750
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 3: it's not sunshine and rainbows.

751
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:48,919
Speaker 2: And so I think we've we've moved away from that. Yeah.

752
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 2: The other part with.

753
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 3: I don't know how like churches as far as like

754
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 3: kind of the institution, like the buildings would go to

755
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 3: say could can do this? Because we're also fighting against

756
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 3: against culture that is consistently moving toward isolation. Is So

757
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,240
Speaker 3: I think that does make discipleship or walking out life

758
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 3: together the way we're meant to challenging because you're literally

759
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:25,439
Speaker 3: trying to bring people to something that they might say

760
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 3: they want but in practice becomes hard to walk out.

761
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

762
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't like, I don't know obviously like

763
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,240
Speaker 3: what the answer is. But I think that's also where

764
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 3: individually we have that responsibility because we are all part

765
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 3: of the body of Christ. Is again, instead of putting

766
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 3: God in a box or or deciding when we are

767
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 3: comfortable about inviting him into our life versus like all aspects,

768
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 3: is if we are sincere in surrendering to him and

769
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 3: doing his will, like I trust, like he will let

770
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 3: us know what is needed. Like for me, Yeah, this year,

771
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 3: my word for this year is actually a f ratha

772
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 3: the bee opened right, eyes to see, ears to hear.

773
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,400
Speaker 3: But it's actually in connection to relationships. So he's actually

774
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 3: shown me where I have kept like relationships or like

775
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 3: just have had a little bit more self focused in

776
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 3: certain areas, and he's been this growing conviction in me

777
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 3: about what I need to do, what he's asking me

778
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 3: to do to be in relationship and be in community

779
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,919
Speaker 3: with others. So I think if we did that too,

780
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 3: like we have the Holy Spirit helping us in that process.

781
00:44:55,640 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: And yes, no, I think that's good. I mean I

782
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: think obviously accountability is crucial, but more than anything else,

783
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: what I kind of hear you saying is we need

784
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: to have the conviction that where you know, where we're

785
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: going on Sunday mornings is actually important beyond Sunday mornings,

786
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: like this is this is who we are. It's not

787
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: another thing that we voluntarily go to. It's it's our identity,

788
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: and so we need to live into that identity. One

789
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: of my favorite passages first John one nine, and I

790
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: love it because it makes confession a mark of what

791
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 1: the Christian life is supposed to look like. And so

792
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: you know, we're we tend to be a little bit

793
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: more shy about sin, and you know, we want to

794
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: hide sort of what we've done wrong, and we you know,

795
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: those kind of things. But first John one nine suggests that, no,

796
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: this confession of sin should be part of what we

797
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: do with one another. And so, yeah, I really appreciate

798
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 1: that answer. I think it's good. And I love that

799
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 1: you know, you're reading through the Bible again and this

800
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 1: is sort of the part that God shows you. I

801
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: think it's pretty fantastic.

802
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well.

803
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: As we close up, tell people where they can find

804
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: a little bit more from you. You know, give your

805
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: website and then your old book is out on Amazon

806
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: right now, Bread Like Rain is out on Amazon. So

807
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:24,439
Speaker 1: I'll have that link in the show notes. But yeah,

808
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: give your website, talk about when the new book.

809
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:26,799
Speaker 2: Will be out.

810
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the website it's Andrea Leco dot com. I

811
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 3: know you'll put the link in there as well. It's

812
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 3: easier to find it that way.

813
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 2: So yeah, so the.

814
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 3: Website's the easiest because you can, well if you want

815
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 3: to see a sneak peek of Bread Like Rain, and

816
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,879
Speaker 3: that book is about encountering God's miraculous provision in your

817
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 3: daily life and really how it's meant to grow your

818
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 3: faith and shape your trust in Him. So you can

819
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 3: get a sneak peak of that if you want to

820
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 3: see it before just getting the book on Amazon. But yes,

821
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 3: the Rock Solid Business thirty three Lessons from Jesus for Entrepreneurs.

822
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 3: The actual publication date is a little bit to be determined,

823
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 3: but you can get a snee or you can sign

824
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 3: up on the website for the wait list so that

825
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 3: when it releases you can get it that way. And

826
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 3: then if you're a Christian business owner, you could also

827
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 3: get onto my email list through my website as well.

828
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: So your website is the easiest. But yeah, thank you

829
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: for asking.

830
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll have that link in the show notes. I'd

831
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: encourage you to check it out everybody, especially those of

832
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 1: you who are involved in entrepreneurial pursuits. But I will

833
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: say I found Breadla Like Rain to be helpful to me,

834
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: and I'm not particularly an entrepreneur, and so I would

835
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: encourage everybody just to take a look at it. And

836
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: I think it was a really good read. And I

837
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: appreciated a lot of your insights both in the book

838
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: and on the podcast Waiting You're Around the book, but yeah,

839
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 1: it was great too, and a lot of the things

840
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: we talked about I think resonate with what you have

841
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: in the book. So it's always a good way to

842
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: do it. We give people a little teaser and then

843
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: they go and they go on check out the book

844
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: on Amazon, So I encourage you to do that. I'll

845
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: put the links in the show notes and everybody can

846
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: check those out. And just Andrea really appreciate you being

847
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: on the show and have enjoyed the conversation.

848
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much again for having me here.

849
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: No problem, all right, everybody, Well we will catch you

850
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian. So thanks for

851
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: being here and take care, right. I just want to

852
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: take a second to thank the team at Life Audio

853
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast.

854
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 1: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens

855
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got

856
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.