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Speaker 1: Right, let's go straight to TV Club and today I'm

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Speaker 1: really excited to tell you about a new wildlife series

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Speaker 1: which is going to start airing on BBC Earth on

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Speaker 1: Monday now. It's called Kingdom and it is narrated by

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Speaker 1: the legendary Sir David Attenborough. This show follows four animal

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Speaker 1: families in a Zambian nature reserve. The filmmakers spent nearly

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Speaker 1: five years following their subjects and capturing some of the

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Speaker 1: most extraordinary footage I have ever seen shot with the

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Speaker 1: use of cutting edge technology. The kind of intimate portrait

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Speaker 1: of animals and their development that is just so special.

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Speaker 1: It's very hard to put into words, but I'm hoping

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Speaker 1: our guest is going to do it for me. Because

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Speaker 1: it's a huge pleasure to be joined on the show

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Speaker 1: today by the series editor. His name is Simon Blakeney

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Speaker 1: and he has worked with the BBC Natural History Unit

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Speaker 1: for nearly twenty years now. Simon, it's wonderful to have

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Speaker 1: you on the show this afternoon. Welcome to Cape Talk.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much, thanks having me.

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Speaker 1: It's a pleasure. Before we talk about the show, tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about your own journey, because I

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Speaker 1: believe you were actually a biochemist by training. How does

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Speaker 1: a biochemist end up in wildlife filmmaking?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I did biochemistry university, and then I'd always taken

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Speaker 3: a lot of photographs. I was been into photography, and

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Speaker 3: a year that sort of sat in the laboratory afterwards,

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Speaker 3: maybe realized that I missed being outside. So yeah, so

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Speaker 3: I was lucky enough to find a route into making

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Speaker 3: wildlife films and I've been doing it for a bit

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Speaker 3: over twenty years now.

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Speaker 1: And before Kingdom, the show we're going to talk about, now,

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Speaker 1: what were some of the other major series that you

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Speaker 1: worked on.

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Speaker 2: Previously?

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Speaker 3: Just before Kingdom, I worked on a couple of series

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Speaker 3: of a show called Dynasties, which was following animals sort

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Speaker 3: of as they as they as they live their lives

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Speaker 3: through the really true stories sort of long form stories

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Speaker 3: of their of them growing up or facing challenges. And

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Speaker 3: that actually was what developed into the idea for Kingdom.

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Speaker 3: So we tried lots of different animals, sort of individual shows,

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Speaker 3: sort of an hour with a kuma, an hour with

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Speaker 3: a lion, an hour with an elephant. We never tried

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Speaker 3: to do all of these shows on top of each other,

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Speaker 3: So that was where the idea.

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Speaker 1: Of Kingdom came from, and I mean the way it

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Speaker 1: plays out on screen is just it's absolutely thrilling because

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Speaker 1: you've taken different animal families which intersect and overlap with

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Speaker 1: one another and compete for territory and for kills, etc.

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Speaker 1: And we'll talk a little bit more about which animals

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Speaker 1: they are in a moment, but the result is this

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Speaker 1: incredibly thrilling you know, it plays like a like a

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Speaker 1: TV drama, almost like a soap opera in the level

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Speaker 1: of emotion that evokes in you, more than a wildlife piece.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, what is extraordinary about the show is

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Speaker 1: the scale of it and the scale of the timeline

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Speaker 1: in creating it. I mean, it's only possible to get

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Speaker 1: to know an animal and to bring the listener to

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Speaker 1: feel as deeply about them and to experience those moments

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Speaker 1: of you know, the high drama, the huge tenderness between

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Speaker 1: mother and cub, the fear for their future, the sadness

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Speaker 1: when something happens to one of them. All of that

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Speaker 1: is evoked because of the depth of the investment of

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Speaker 1: time in getting to know these creatures and show them

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Speaker 1: to us on film. Let's just talk about that concept

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Speaker 1: of getting a crew to spend nearly five years on

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Speaker 1: a single project. I mean, Simon, firstly, did you know

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Speaker 1: it was going to be that long going in? Did

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Speaker 1: you go into this saying it's going to be a

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Speaker 1: long term project and the only way to do this

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Speaker 1: properly is to give it the s length of time.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the only way to do exactly as you said,

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Speaker 3: is to spend as much time as you possibly can.

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Speaker 3: I think when we went into it, we were thinking

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Speaker 3: more four years, but some of the events that unfolded

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Speaker 3: and stuff that were we just couldn't leave them when we.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps really should have stopped, and so we wanted to

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Speaker 2: keep going.

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Speaker 3: And the other part of it was that we all

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Speaker 3: got to know these animals so incredibly well. We've been

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Speaker 3: following them for We did one four hundred filming days

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Speaker 3: in total with multiple crews, and it was such an

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Speaker 3: intense period of time that we've got to know them

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Speaker 3: allst like members of our own family. So none of

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Speaker 3: us wanted to leave, none of us wanted to stop

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Speaker 3: the filming. So that's how we sort of extended it

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Speaker 3: from four into nearly five years. So it was quite

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Speaker 3: a labor of love, especially by the end.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now, The setting for those who don't no is

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Speaker 1: South Luanga National Park in Zambia, and I'm sure there

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Speaker 1: are plenty of listeners today as Simon who won't be

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Speaker 1: familiar with South Luangwa. Won't you tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about that location and what made you choose

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Speaker 1: that location specifically?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're.

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Speaker 3: Actually even just in even smaller edges twenty kilometers across

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Speaker 3: in one corner of the national park, an area.

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Speaker 2: Called Inefu Southwenga, and a few other reserves but not

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Speaker 2: very many.

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Speaker 3: A few other reserves in Africa are just super special

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Speaker 3: in that they've they've got they're big enough that they've

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Speaker 3: got an incredible population of wildlife, but they've actually also

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Speaker 3: got all of these incredible characters living on top of

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Speaker 3: each other. So there's one twenty kilometer area that we

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Speaker 3: one for across area that we that we filmed in

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Speaker 3: has amazing population of wild dogs, leopards, hyenas and lions

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Speaker 3: and they're all on top of each other. And before

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Speaker 3: we started filming, the whole concept for Kingdom was that

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Speaker 3: we wanted to see how these animals lives affect each other,

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Speaker 3: and so we've had to go for somewhere where where

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Speaker 3: they were. They were really on top of each other.

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Speaker 3: And I think we always knew South Lewyan was incredible.

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Speaker 3: We always knew that this area we're in in Sephi

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Speaker 3: was the best place to be, and it was a

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Speaker 3: really neat little legal system. But I don't think any

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Speaker 3: of us could have could have predicted quite the level

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Speaker 3: of interaction that we got. Every day something happened, And

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Speaker 3: that mostly exciting thing about this is we never knew

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Speaker 3: what was going to happen, and that was sort of

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Speaker 3: what kept the filming going, kept the crew going, But

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Speaker 3: also hopefully you can see that for the viewer that

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Speaker 3: you can see that on the show, is that every

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Speaker 3: day the twists and turns with something that we just

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Speaker 3: couldn't predict. And that was what's so excited about telling

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Speaker 3: this story of a place that we didn't write.

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Speaker 2: This isn't this isn't something we've written the script for.

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Speaker 3: In going and filmed that we didn't know what was

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Speaker 3: going to happen, and the animals, as their lives played out,

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Speaker 3: we just followed them and showed and showed what played out.

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Speaker 1: Just for anybody coming in midway to this conversation, our

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Speaker 1: guest joining us by a zoom this afternoon is Simon Blakeney,

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Speaker 1: who has been part of the BBC's Natural History unit

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Speaker 1: for nearly twenty years now and was the series editor

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Speaker 1: on the new show called Kingdom, which has going to

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Speaker 1: drop on BBC Earth this coming Monday, and as Simon's

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Speaker 1: just referenced, it tells the story specifically of a leopard family,

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Speaker 1: a hyena clan, a pride of lions, and a pack

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Speaker 1: of wild dogs, all of them within a very condensed

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Speaker 1: sort of area of Encephu within the South Luangua National

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Speaker 1: Park in Zambia. And the stories of how they they

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Speaker 1: intersect and they fight for dominance, and they clash over kills,

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Speaker 1: and they try to protect their young from one another

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Speaker 1: in a place where you know, you know they are

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Speaker 1: fighting for the same resources in some cases is just

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Speaker 1: the most brilliant piece of storytelling as well as it

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Speaker 1: is the most exciting piece of cinematography and the actual

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Speaker 1: filmmaking itself, Simon, I mean some of the shots for me,

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Speaker 1: obviously you're using the latest cutting edge filming technology, but

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Speaker 1: some of for example, the way some of the nighttime

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Speaker 1: scenes were filmed and the use of drone shots, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: You really obviously had multiple cameras and techniques available to

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Speaker 1: you at different times. Do you want to talk to

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about the kind of technology that

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Speaker 1: you applied to this project.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean the key thing for us was

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Speaker 3: that we wanted to observe and be observe the behavior

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Speaker 3: and be in their world, but in no way disturb anything.

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Speaker 3: So we had to let the animals sort of live

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Speaker 3: their lives in the normal way and we would just

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Speaker 3: sort of blend into the background. So one of the

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Speaker 3: key things for us with this series, and it was

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Speaker 3: only made possible by sort of advancing and technology, was

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Speaker 3: the use of small quiet drone. So we can now

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Speaker 3: using these drones that are sort of smaller than a

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Speaker 3: shoe box, we can now get broadcast quality pictures and

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Speaker 3: follow follow lions, dogs, painters, whatever, and really get in

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Speaker 3: their world. So the dogs, particularly, they move so quickly,

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Speaker 3: they burst across the landscape at incredible speed. But the

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Speaker 3: drones allowed us to keep up with them and also

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Speaker 3: see moments of their lives. It just wouldn't be possible

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Speaker 3: with sort of traditional called long lens cameras, So we

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Speaker 3: were able to stay with them and travel with the

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Speaker 3: pack as they as they as they met each other,

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Speaker 3: as they as they went on hunts.

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Speaker 2: Et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And I think what was also on a practical level

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Speaker 3: really useful as that in the in Sethu, where there's

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Speaker 3: quite a lot of undergrowth and quite a whereas where

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Speaker 3: it's very hard to drive, we could follow the We

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Speaker 3: could follow the dogs and know where they've gone, so

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Speaker 3: that on a practical level we didn't lose them very

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Speaker 3: often because we could follow them.

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Speaker 2: With the drugs, the drones were key, and say, they've

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Speaker 2: come on so far in the last.

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Speaker 3: Even just the last five years, they're completely different bits

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Speaker 3: of kit to what they were five years ago.

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Speaker 1: Simon our listener, Tony emailing me wanting to know did

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Speaker 1: the animals become at all accustomed to you given how

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Speaker 1: much time you spent. I mean you've just said you

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Speaker 1: very deliberately wanted to observe their world but not disturb it.

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Speaker 1: Was there any sense of them getting used to you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, tokay.

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Speaker 3: They Well, I've got a colleague who'll work with a lot,

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Speaker 3: who's a camera person, and one of their favorite things

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Speaker 3: to say is that we spend we spend years and

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Speaker 3: years getting to know and love these animals for them

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Speaker 3: to totally ignore us, So yeah, we just end up

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Speaker 3: blending into the background. So we use this same vehicles

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Speaker 3: each day. We're quiet, we keep it, We keep an

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Speaker 3: appropriate distance, and to be honest, we just become like

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Speaker 3: another tree or or another animal that's not a threat

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Speaker 3: in any way. So we we blend into the background

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Speaker 3: and they definitely do accept us. In fact, some of

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Speaker 3: the times, particularly with things like lions and hyenas, you

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Speaker 3: have to you have to sometimes move away from them

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Speaker 3: because they come become too accepting. If it's a hot day,

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Speaker 3: there's nothing a lion loves better than trying to find

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Speaker 3: some shade underneath a car. But for a whole load

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Speaker 3: of reasons, we don't want to get that accustomed to us,

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Speaker 3: so we tend to pull back when that happens. And

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Speaker 3: hyenas love nothing more than chewing as hire or something,

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Speaker 3: so again we have to keep a bit of a

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Speaker 3: appropriate distance. But yeah, they don't see this as a threat, thankfully,

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Speaker 3: because we're that would be totally counter productive.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, we do our best to blend into the background.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, and it's lovely because you do feel accepted

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Speaker 2: by them. In a certain way.

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Speaker 3: It's obviously very easy to be anthropomorphic about it, but

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Speaker 3: you do feel like you've been accepted into their world

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Speaker 3: and they and they just get on with their lives

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Speaker 3: around you.

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Speaker 1: It must be difficult, though you've just said it. Your

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Speaker 1: colleagues comment about we spend all this time with these

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Speaker 1: animals and grow to love them, and yet at the

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Speaker 1: same time, you've got to stand back and let nature

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Speaker 1: do what nature does. And there are some scenes in

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Speaker 1: this series that where it's very difficult to stand back

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Speaker 1: and watch that happen. I mean, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: give away any spoilers. I was lucky enough to get

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Speaker 1: to view the series on just an advanced copy last week,

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Speaker 1: so I can tell you that there are moments where

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Speaker 1: you are rooting for a particular character and things do

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Speaker 1: not work out. I don't want to say more than that,

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Speaker 1: you know something might happen to them that was completely unexpected.

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Speaker 1: Something might happen where another animal takes one art and

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Speaker 1: your team have got no choice but to stand back

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Speaker 1: and film and watch that happen and not get involved. Simon,

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Speaker 1: was that difficult, particularly for some of those characters who

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Speaker 1: you really do feel emotionally attached to Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we definitely got emotionally attached, and we all

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Speaker 3: had our favorites.

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Speaker 2: All.

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Speaker 3: The way we divided the teams up was by the animals,

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Speaker 3: so that we had a team who were looking after

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Speaker 3: the Doughter team for the Lions team for that, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And everyone had their their favorites and there and the

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Speaker 3: ones that they wanted to find most each day. And obviously,

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Speaker 3: when when sad things happen, it's it's it's hard to

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Speaker 3: observe that. But on one level, there's there's nothing we

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Speaker 3: can do. There's nothing even if we want to do,

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Speaker 3: there's nothing we can do to intervene. And I think

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Speaker 3: I think we I and everyone obvious eve very strong

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Speaker 3: that we shouldn't intervene in situations where where animals are

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Speaker 3: interacting with each other because it's the natural course of events.

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Speaker 3: But also I think almost in some one, in fact,

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Speaker 3: not totally across the board, there were all of the

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Speaker 3: characters have moments where things weren't going their way, but

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Speaker 3: also moments when things were so however sad it is

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Speaker 3: if something sort of sad happens to say the Lions

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Speaker 3: or the dogs, that's compensated for in our own sort

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Speaker 3: of emotional state by when we get to spend two

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Speaker 3: or three hours sat beside a group of dog pups

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Speaker 3: who've just woken up and are just doing nothing more

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Speaker 3: than playing. They just love rolling around and jumping on

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Speaker 3: each other and jumping on their parents and then running

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Speaker 3: away and hiding because they're winding their parents up. And

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Speaker 3: watching that happen with wild dogs or with one of

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Speaker 3: the lions. I've been really lucky. I mean, I've spent

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Speaker 3: a lot of time with lions over the last ten

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Speaker 3: years or so on various films, and I don't think

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Speaker 3: I'll ever forget. We've got to spend some time with

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Speaker 3: the our pride when I'm not smiling any too bad,

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Speaker 3: too much. But later in the film, they do have

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Speaker 3: they do have cubs, and they had a huge number

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Speaker 3: of them all at the same time. There's this one

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Speaker 3: little cub who just would love running around and just

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Speaker 3: if anything else was trying to sleep, it jump on

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Speaker 3: their heads and it was And just watching those moments

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Speaker 3: of joy it makes up for sometimes by the moments

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Speaker 3: when you are a bit sadder. But it is the

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Speaker 3: natural way of life, and that's what we were so

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Speaker 3: keen to tell with this series is that the story

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Speaker 3: of how these animals sort of affect each other and

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Speaker 3: how everyone everyone has a way of succeeding as well.

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Speaker 3: It's not like you have one dominant and everything else

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Speaker 3: falls by the wayside.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's got their own way of existing and it's that's

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Speaker 2: what's always even going on for thousands, if not millions

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Speaker 2: of years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the series does make you look at some

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Speaker 1: of these animals very differently. I mean, I know, hyenas,

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Speaker 1: you know, an animal that few people would probably rate

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Speaker 1: as their favorites in the hierarchy of animals that they

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Speaker 1: love and a lot of people are terrified of, and

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Speaker 1: there's lots of superstition around them. But the sight of

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Speaker 1: you know, your hyena matriarch lying on her back with

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Speaker 1: her legs sprayed and her stomach barreness, you just has

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Speaker 1: a snooze and you look at it and you think, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, we can all relate to lounging on the

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Speaker 1: cars at home. There are moments like that. There is

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Speaker 1: I mean, in the first episode there is the cutest

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Speaker 1: moment of a leopard cub approaching a hippo wallowing in

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Speaker 1: the mud and watching as that plays out, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're just moments like that of just you feel incredibly

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Speaker 1: privileged to see this kind of interaction between creatures, because

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Speaker 1: even if you are somebody who spends a lot of

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Speaker 1: time in the bush and is lucky enough to go

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Speaker 1: on holiday to wildlife reserves, to witness moments like that

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Speaker 1: of those interactions is something very very special. Indeed, now

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Speaker 1: our listener, Keith wants to know how difficult it was

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Speaker 1: to get so David Attenborough as the narrator. He says,

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Speaker 1: he must be in great demand and for me is

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Speaker 1: the only person who can do it properly. I mean

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Speaker 1: he does it with his trademark skill and storytelling. Flip

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Speaker 1: was he attached to the project from day one, Simon.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he's a legend and so his his obviously

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Speaker 3: every show he works on is is what's elevated by

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Speaker 3: his his involvement. And I think what was so exciting

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Speaker 3: was that what he really enjoys and I've worked with him,

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Speaker 3: I've been like he to work with in previous series

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Speaker 3: like such a Dynasty, is what he really enjoys is

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Speaker 3: that that sort of understanding and storytelling her of the natural world.

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Speaker 3: So when he when he sort of saw the concept

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Speaker 3: what we were doing. My colleague who's worked with him

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Speaker 3: even more did more, who went to sort of visit

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Speaker 3: and talk to about this series. He was like, Oh,

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Speaker 3: you're mad, this is going to be so difficult, but

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Speaker 3: at the same time also felt that we'd really would, really,

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Speaker 3: we'd really manage to capture some incredible, incredible moments and

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Speaker 3: incredible stories. So I think what's so lovely about working

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Speaker 3: with him is that the excitement he brings to it,

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Speaker 3: not just for the viewers.

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Speaker 2: But also himself.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he's he's really invested in these in these stories,

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Speaker 3: and I've I've worked with him on the similar type

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Speaker 3: of sort of narrative led shows before, where you're you're learning,

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Speaker 3: get to know a character, and skip to.

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Speaker 2: The end to sy of that was okay.

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Speaker 3: But more so, Yeah, his involvement is so important and

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Speaker 3: so exciting, and I think that he's got this incredible

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Speaker 3: ability to deliver both information and also make you feel

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Speaker 3: like you're being brought along on the ride with him

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Speaker 3: as a as a storyteller. So yeah, his his his

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Speaker 3: participation was fantastic.

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Speaker 1: Before we run out of time, I do want to

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Speaker 1: give a mention to the fact that the series isn't

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Speaker 1: only about the animal stories. Particularly the last episode is

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Speaker 1: very focused on the people who work to protect these

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Speaker 1: animals in the Luangwa Park. And this is the one

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Speaker 1: exception to that do not get involved a rule, because

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Speaker 1: we do see those teams going out removing snares from

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Speaker 1: animals who've been caught in poachers snares, and I mean again,

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Speaker 1: there's some extraordinary footage of how animals are handled. And

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Speaker 1: you know, how do you remove there from the neck

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Speaker 1: of a large lion? You know what's involved in that process?

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Speaker 1: How do you bring down a giraffe in order to

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Speaker 1: help remove the snare that it has become entangled in.

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Speaker 1: It's extraordinary to watch those processes play art and to

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Speaker 1: get to know the people and the amazing dog unit

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Speaker 1: that they work with. I mean, talk to us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about about the role of those teams in

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Speaker 1: facilitating the creation of the series.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so we as filmmakers don't sort of directly get

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Speaker 3: involved in things like the snaring and things like that,

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Speaker 3: but we worked with an incredible group of conservationists. Conservationists

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Speaker 3: and scientists the Zambiac Carnival Program are key to to

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Speaker 3: our filming. Their companies every single day help helping to

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Speaker 3: track the animals, helping to also collect data for their

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Speaker 3: own work. And also groups such as Conservation of South

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Speaker 3: Flangler who are featured in the in the in the

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Speaker 3: episode six, and also the Record Response Unit who who

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Speaker 3: helped us sort of manage when there's conflict between wildlife

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Speaker 3: and humans, often elephants for example.

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Speaker 2: But the there, they they are the people, they're the

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Speaker 2: real heroes of this series.

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Speaker 3: They they're people who live their work there often have

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Speaker 3: grown up alongside this National park and sometimes within it,

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Speaker 3: and they the care and passion that they bring into

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Speaker 3: keeping these animals safe.

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Speaker 2: Is is incredible.

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Speaker 3: And also the skill of the and the the dedication

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Speaker 3: it is. It's not as sort of simple as driving

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Speaker 3: out into the bush and put sending out a dart

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Speaker 3: and and put and and and putting and putting a mind.

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Speaker 2: To sleep for a moment while while you're removing.

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Speaker 3: It's about it's about days and days sometimes the tracking

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Speaker 3: sometimes of of of early mornings and late nights, and

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Speaker 3: they they put it, they put their heart and soul

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Speaker 3: into it because they they.

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Speaker 2: Just feel it. They well, they feel it's really.

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Speaker 3: Important that we preserve these incredible wild places and and

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Speaker 3: I think their testament to how possible it is to

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Speaker 3: have people and animals living alongside each other and and

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Speaker 3: and things going well. Yes, there are there are setbacks,

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Speaker 3: but as you see in the show, but as long

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Speaker 3: as you've got people who as dedicated and passionate as

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Speaker 3: they are, then I think there's this hope for hopeful.

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Speaker 1: I'd love yet and a special shout up to a

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Speaker 1: dog named Odie, And that's all I'll say. On note

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Speaker 1: note that you guys have got to get all the

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Speaker 1: way to episode six to meet Odie. Simon, listen, I

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Speaker 1: mean five years of blood, sweat and tears, and boy

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Speaker 1: was it worth it because the end result is something

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Speaker 1: truly spectacular. Thank you for the effort that went into

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Speaker 1: making it, and thank you for your time sharing the

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Speaker 1: story with us today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, and I hope I really enjoyed that.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there will. Simon Blakeney is the series editor

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Speaker 1: for Kingdom