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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Crutis live on

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Speaker 1: ninety two point seven and one six at them streaming

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Speaker 1: on the Prime Media Plus and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 2: by ABS of Corporate and Investment Banking of Pan African

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Speaker 2: Bank that's invested in your story because your story matters.

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Speaker 2: Good evening, I'm Stephen Curtis, ten minutes after six. Good

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Speaker 2: to have you along tonight. One of those days where

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Speaker 2: things are getting moving and I'm sure if like mine,

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Speaker 2: your trip this morning to work was well carmageddon, you

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Speaker 2: weren't the only one. You do get a sense of

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Speaker 2: things getting to their kind of mannic normal. I know

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Speaker 2: things do calm down a bit. That's the kind of

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Speaker 2: the next two or three weeks probably among the worst

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Speaker 2: weeks in the morning traffic, but we'll see how it

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Speaker 2: all goes. Lots of conversations around around the prime interest rate,

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Speaker 2: and from twenty four reporting that the Competition Commission actually

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Speaker 2: confirming it's been investigating the idea of the interest rate

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Speaker 2: for a couple of years. To my mind, though it's

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Speaker 2: really a convention, and I'm not really sure the Competition

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Speaker 2: Commission would be investigating. You might lend money to Stephen

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Speaker 2: at prime plus two and a table at prime minus one,

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Speaker 2: but you're not lending to both of us at prime

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Speaker 2: because prime exists. You're judging each of us on our

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Speaker 2: own merits as lenders, as borrows, rather yes as borrows.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not really sure what the investigation would be.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk more about it. From everything that I can see,

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Speaker 2: I can't see any way that this results in you

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Speaker 2: paying lower interest rate on your debt Beta Adolt Montalto

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Speaker 2: from Grutham Hill Burn your radio. In a moment. I

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Speaker 2: was surprised, but not surprised to see that our Reserve

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Speaker 2: Bank governor Eto was among the central bank governors who

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Speaker 2: lent his name to that public statement backing the Jerome Powell,

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Speaker 2: the chair of the US Federal Reserve. I was not

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Speaker 2: surprised because I think it's something that independence of central

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Speaker 2: banks is something that Kaniaco believes in passionately. I think

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Speaker 2: he also, to my mind at least, is a very

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Speaker 2: keen sense of justice, and I think you would see

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Speaker 2: what's happening around powerful what it is that Trump administration

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Speaker 2: wants lower interest rates, and it's as simple as that.

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Speaker 2: I was surprised though, that central bank governors felt they

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Speaker 2: had to do this. I've never seen anything like this before.

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Speaker 2: And you'll speak to Senezia Bakwazami about this in just

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Speaker 2: a moment. She's at momentum because it's just extraordinary where

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Speaker 2: we are. There's a bigger question if the independence of

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Speaker 2: the federal reserves weakened, does that maybe lead to the

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Speaker 2: weakening of the independence of other central banks because of

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Speaker 2: the example of the US sorts of sets. The World

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Speaker 2: Economic Forum releasing their risk report today ahead of the

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Speaker 2: meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos next week,

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Speaker 2: and you'll speak to a Spirospaturus here from him about that.

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Speaker 2: He was involved in drawing up that report. Geoeconomic confrontation

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Speaker 2: one of the big risks, but the biggest risk un certainty,

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Speaker 2: and that would kind of make sense. And then also

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Speaker 2: George Bennett's the CEO of Rainbow Rare Earth. They received

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Speaker 2: money from the US government financing rather and they've started

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Speaker 2: that big Rare Earth's extraction pilot project at Palabora. I

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Speaker 2: do find that fascinating looking forward to that conversation. Oh

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Speaker 2: double one, double a three oh seven O two two

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Speaker 2: one four four six O five six seven of course,

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Speaker 2: Voice notes tonight on seven two seven oh two one

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Speaker 2: seven oh two The.

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Speaker 3: Money Show on seven O Monday till Friday, six to

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Speaker 3: a pm.

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Speaker 2: Confirmation as we go to air from the Independent Development

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Speaker 2: Trust saying that to Bojo Malaca has resigned as CEO.

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Speaker 2: And if you've got to scratch your head, because it

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Speaker 2: happened last year, to Boho Malaca is the person who

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Speaker 2: offered a bribe to the Daily Maverick journalist Peter Louis Meiberg.

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Speaker 2: Of course I see him as a colleague. And I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's so many things that are sort of extraordinary about it.

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Speaker 2: Why is she still technically in the position? I know

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Speaker 2: she had been suspended. What happens to the investigations that

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Speaker 2: were underwear? And I'm a little bit disappointed that the

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Speaker 2: IDP statement says that, in line with standard governance and

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Speaker 2: employment practice, the terms of her departure remain confidential. They

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Speaker 2: go on to say no comment will be made at

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Speaker 2: the stage. They'll cooperate fully with any ongoing investigations. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if anyone could say anything against you if

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Speaker 2: someone you employed does what is so obviously the wrong

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Speaker 2: thing breaks the law so obviously and publicly, and you

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Speaker 2: stand up and you say we fired them, and dare

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Speaker 2: them to take you to the labor court. I mean, really,

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Speaker 2: if the labor court finds against you, we have bigger problems.

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Speaker 2: But that's the one thing. Just say you fired her

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Speaker 2: and why, and then the idea that you know you

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Speaker 2: have to keep it all secret. Look at what she did.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's so obvious. And then the second thing

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Speaker 2: is to say no further comment will be made. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if I would choose that attack if I

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Speaker 2: work for the Independent Development Trust. This is issued by

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Speaker 2: Zimbini Hill, who's the chair of the board of trustees

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Speaker 2: of the Independent Development Trust. I think you might find

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Speaker 2: that the pressure becomes unbearable because people want to know

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Speaker 2: what happened and why. So I think you might just

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Speaker 2: that were I don't know if that was a very

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Speaker 2: wise thing to say at the end of the statement.

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Speaker 2: Don't say it even if you mean it. But I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have said it your view. I mean, I'm always

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Speaker 2: amazed when people liked to Borjomolaka or caught on tape

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Speaker 2: doing what she did, offering a massive bribe and there

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be any sense of regret. Oh seven two,

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Speaker 2: seven oh two one, seven oh two.

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Speaker 1: What's up, Stephen on seven two seven oh two one

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Speaker 1: seven oh two.

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Speaker 2: Well confirmation today that our Reserve Bank Governor Erro Kanajo

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Speaker 2: joining thirteen other central bank governors and issuing a joint

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Speaker 2: statement showing their support for the Chair of the US

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Speaker 2: Federal Reserve to Rome Powell. Pal said on Sunday night

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Speaker 2: investigations by US federal investigators into his conduct were just

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Speaker 2: an attempt by the Trump administration to force them to

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Speaker 2: lower interest rates. Senisha Pakarasami is the chief economist of

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Speaker 2: Momentum Investment SANISHA. Good evening to see our governor, the

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Speaker 2: governors of the European Central Bank, the Bank of England,

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Speaker 2: even the Bank of New Zealand all signing the same

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Speaker 2: statement of support for someone. We really are living in

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Speaker 2: extraordinary times.

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Speaker 4: Good evening, Stephen, and lovely to chat to you in

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Speaker 4: the new year. Indeed, you know, we haven't seen something

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Speaker 4: like this in living memory. But I think if we

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Speaker 4: look at the reasons behind the support for power, it

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Speaker 4: really shows that they are trying to preserve institutional independence.

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Speaker 4: And you made in your opening remarks it is something

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Speaker 4: that our own central bank governor stands firmly behind that

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Speaker 4: monetary policy should be driven by data outcomes and the

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Speaker 4: outlook for things like inflation and the employment mandate in

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Speaker 4: the United States, and not be driven by electoral political cycles.

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Speaker 4: I think it also helps to create an element of

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Speaker 4: global market stability, because as we know, the US dollar

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Speaker 4: is still the world's reserve currency. It also provides a

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Speaker 4: little bit more credibility into monetary policy making, and so

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Speaker 4: I think it also helps to kind of deter you know,

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Speaker 4: any kind of precedent it may set if the fair

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Speaker 4: chair can be removed or prosecuted over such a disagreement.

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Speaker 2: I mean, in a way, this isn't just about the FED.

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Speaker 2: It's not just about the US economy. It may well

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Speaker 2: be about central bank independence everywhere indeed.

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Speaker 4: And so you know, we need to look at this

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Speaker 4: as a threat to the independence of the institution around

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Speaker 4: monetary policy. Now, I would not necessarily say that it's

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Speaker 4: a direct risk to those other central banks, but it

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Speaker 4: is more of an indi risk, indirect risk to institutions

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Speaker 4: because the FED does full set that global benchmark for

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Speaker 4: credibility for central banks, and that's largely because the DOLLARSIBUL

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Speaker 4: anchors international manetary system. There is also an element of

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Speaker 4: full over into global financial conditions, and so if credibility

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Speaker 4: is questioned, that could raise risk premiere around the world.

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Speaker 4: We could see higher global bondiles elsewhere, We could see

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Speaker 4: a threat to inflation elsewhere. And then I think, thirdly,

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Speaker 4: you know, it also starts to reshape the global norms.

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Speaker 4: So I think, you know, central bank independence has become

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Speaker 4: a norm in global society, and if that then starts

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Speaker 4: to become threatened, it is starting to see that, you know,

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Speaker 4: the central bank in itself is starting to bend to

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Speaker 4: those political cycles.

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Speaker 2: Would it be as simple to say there would probably

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Speaker 2: be a clear line from Trump sacking Jerome power and

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Speaker 2: beginning to impinge on the independence of the US Federal

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Speaker 2: Reserve and inflation in South Africa. I realized we're in

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Speaker 2: a low inflation environment at the moment, but it would

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Speaker 2: seem to me, I mean, it would take a little while,

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Speaker 2: but there probably would be an impact on South African

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Speaker 2: inflation eventually.

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Speaker 4: We ultimately, because we are a small open economy, we

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Speaker 4: do have a freely floating exchange rate, and you know

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Speaker 4: that link into financial conditions and the rise in risk

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Speaker 4: premiere could then affect emerging markets. And of course we

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Speaker 4: know that South Africa seems to be what we call

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Speaker 4: a high beta play on emerging markets. So when emerging

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Speaker 4: markets do well, South Africa teams to do reasonably while

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Speaker 4: as well, and when emerging markets do badly, South Africa

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Speaker 4: tends to take the hit in a bigger disproportionate way.

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Speaker 2: Sanisia, thank you so much. Saniesia Pakarasami as the chief

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Speaker 2: economist at Momentum Investments. Nineteen minutes after six.

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Speaker 1: Stephen Gone acts at at Stephen Kreutz.

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Speaker 2: Several reports around at the moment based suggesting that the

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Speaker 2: Reserve Bank is looking at changing or reviewing the prime

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Speaker 2: interest rate. It's three hundred and fifty basis points above

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Speaker 2: the REPO rate from twenty four reporting this afternoon, The

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Speaker 2: Competition Commission now says it's investigating whether banks have engaged

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Speaker 2: in cartel like behavior by following prime. I must just

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Speaker 2: point out that whatever happens, I can't see it having

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Speaker 2: an impact on the interest that you pay. Peter ed

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Speaker 2: Old Montalto is the managing director of Peter Good Evening Okay,

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Speaker 2: prime is three hundred and fifty basis points above the

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Speaker 2: repo rate. It's not a regulation. What is prime really.

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Speaker 5: Good afternoon?

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Speaker 6: This is actually a surprisingly hard question to answer. The

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Speaker 6: market in general assumes that the SALV sets the prime

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Speaker 6: rate and has kept it unchanged basically now since two

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Speaker 6: thousand and one, at three hundred and fifty basis points

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Speaker 6: over the policy rate. However, if you look back in history,

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Speaker 6: the SALV often treats it as sort of an externality,

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Speaker 6: as something that just sort of gets delivered to them

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Speaker 6: from God, if you like. And it seems to have

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Speaker 6: fallen between the gap who actually sort of owns or

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Speaker 6: sets with things, And so I think it's actually be

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Speaker 6: very interesting if the Competition Commission is actually able to

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Speaker 6: tease out whether this thing really comes from. But what

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Speaker 6: is certainly the case is that this thing has a

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Speaker 6: very strong amount of Sarab oversight. The last time someone

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Speaker 6: tried to deviate from a particular bank setting it, the

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Speaker 6: Star brang them up to tell them off. And in general,

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Speaker 6: I think the Saab is very conscious that the market

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Speaker 6: believes it has some control over it, and that's why

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Speaker 6: there is now a review of what to do about

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Speaker 6: it in the context of a much broader range of

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Speaker 6: reforms that the SARABA is doing, including to the way

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Speaker 6: it implements multi policy they did two years ago and

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Speaker 6: the change in the inflation target that happened in November.

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Speaker 2: At its simplest, prime is something that if I go

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Speaker 2: as Stephen to a bank and I say to the bank,

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Speaker 2: I want to borrow money to buy a house. They

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Speaker 2: will offer me prime plus or prime minus. They might

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Speaker 2: offer me prime, but it's more likely to be on

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Speaker 2: one side of prime or the other. So if it

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Speaker 2: disappeared tomorrow, would it matter, because wouldn't they then simply say, Stephen,

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Speaker 2: instead of prime plus one, we will offer you repo

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Speaker 2: plus four hundred and fifty basis points above.

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Speaker 7: Exactly.

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Speaker 6: And that was what a review done in now fifteen

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Speaker 6: years ago so by the SAAB showed as well as

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Speaker 6: well as more recent thinking from them as well, and

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Speaker 6: that banks basically build credit profiles. They would have a

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Speaker 6: profile on you, on the risk around you, and make

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Speaker 6: a decision first. They would then use the prime rate

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Speaker 6: as a communication tool with you, and that that's basically

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Speaker 6: all it is now. I think there are some more

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Speaker 6: complexities on top of that. The consumers are likely given

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Speaker 6: behavioral finance and the framing concept. They are likely to

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Speaker 6: maybe think about larger numbers and spreads above repostslightly differently

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Speaker 6: to spreads around prime. It's also somewhat better from Marchi

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Speaker 6: policy transmission for your average person in the economy to

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Speaker 6: our you think about the repro rate which is currently

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Speaker 6: six seventy five as opposed to as much higher rate

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Speaker 6: of ten twenty five, which often gets discussed more in

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Speaker 6: consumer media and in biostate agents and stuff like that.

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Speaker 6: So there are some marginal benefits maybe from shifting, but

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Speaker 6: I think the whole point in it is a tiding

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Speaker 6: up exercise we're talking about here. We're not talking about

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Speaker 6: some fundamental, massive structure or form, or, as you say

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Speaker 6: at the start, any dramatic impact certainly on rates that

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Speaker 6: people already pay.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so if you and I go to the same lender,

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Speaker 2: and let's just say prime still exists as it does now,

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Speaker 2: and they offer me prime plus one and you prime

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Speaker 2: minus one, I'm not really sure the Competition Commission would

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Speaker 2: investigate because prime is just used as a kind of

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Speaker 2: convention or a reference point. It doesn't really mean anything

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Speaker 2: they're not saying. I mean, the main two factors the

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Speaker 2: main two variables to how much you and I each

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Speaker 2: get offered is how the risk profile of you and

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Speaker 2: ila where the repo rate is.

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Speaker 6: Indeed, and I think that's what the Competition Commission will

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Speaker 6: probably end up saying eventually. Now they might say other

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Speaker 6: things in the interim. They Competition Commission, I think have

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Speaker 6: been itching for quite a while to look at the

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Speaker 6: sort of core of banks, if you like, around you know,

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Speaker 6: big things like mortgage lending, et cetera. And maybe he

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Speaker 6: is using this a little bit of a hook on

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Speaker 6: that as well. But I think certainly if you were

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Speaker 6: to take this to the Competition Appeals Pale, let's say

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Speaker 6: the initial decision went against it, all the evidence presented

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Speaker 6: by banks et cetera, would would convince them that there

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Speaker 6: is there is not collusion going on here, but the

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Speaker 6: commounts of confusion that's caused certainly, and the debate and

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Speaker 6: the confusion and debate in the last you know, thirty

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Speaker 6: six hours, I think really does show that actually, everyone,

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Speaker 6: including the Salve you know, it, will be well served

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Speaker 6: by this review that Salv's undertaking in actually just laying

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Speaker 6: out a much cleaner and more simplistic view going forwards,

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Speaker 6: which is just to use one rate, which is the

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Speaker 6: repair rate.

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Speaker 2: I was fascinated to see that many other countries have

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Speaker 2: a prime interest rate too, or something like it, and

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Speaker 2: most of them are most of them are in the

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Speaker 2: same range as ours, But it doesn't help me understand

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Speaker 2: why ours is three hundred and fifty points just because

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Speaker 2: other countries is also in the same range.

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Speaker 6: Well one the two other countries do. I mean, in

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Speaker 6: many countries you simply compete on the absolute interest rate.

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Speaker 6: And so you know, perusing around various European UK banks

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Speaker 6: today and their websites that you talk about individual rates

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Speaker 6: and maybe you have more homogeneous borrowers. You have things

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Speaker 6: like income thresholds and now things, and the market's work

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Speaker 6: in slightly different ways. But these markets generally work more

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Speaker 6: on absolute rates, and so they'll talk about the absolute

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Speaker 6: level that you're going to be borrowing at. And that's

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Speaker 6: an even simpler method in the sense of its one

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Speaker 6: number number actually equates obviously to the amount of interest

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Speaker 6: youal then paying on a monthly basis. But I think

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Speaker 6: ultimately what the Stalva's going to have to decide, as

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Speaker 6: they've done in previous reviews, is what is the cost

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Speaker 6: benefit balance of doing this, you can you transition to

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Speaker 6: a much simpler model. I think the answer is probably yes.

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Speaker 6: You can set it in perpetuity at three hundred and

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Speaker 6: fifty basis points and then mandate banks going forward to

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Speaker 6: benchmark of the repro rate. And I think maybe when

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Speaker 6: we get the end of this this reviews on age

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Speaker 6: just starting, we'll probably all look back at this and

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Speaker 6: slightly scratch our heads that there was so much drama.

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Speaker 2: Peter et Old Montozo, thanks very much, indeed, managing director

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Speaker 2: at Cruthen The Money Show, twenty six minutes after six

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Speaker 2: Chris Stewart's portfolio manager at ninety one, Chris Good evening, Well,

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Speaker 2: come back, a nice update from Northern. They've been able

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Speaker 2: to increase their platinum production, and obviously everyone in the

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Speaker 2: platinum game will want to produce as much as they

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Speaker 2: can at the moment.

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Speaker 8: In this environment, Stephen Good, evening. Platinum continues to fly,

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Speaker 8: emulating the trend through much of twenty twenty five into

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Speaker 8: twenty twenty six. We're seeing sort of platinum price up

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Speaker 8: eighteen percent year today, to palladium price up fifteen percent

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Speaker 8: and the roodium price up ten percent year to date.

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Speaker 8: So it is a very benign and favorable period for

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Speaker 8: platinum producers, and Northern managing to increase.

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Speaker 9: Their first half twenty twenty six production.

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Speaker 8: Remember they've got a junior end, increasing their production to

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Speaker 8: four hundred and sixty seven point eight thousand answers of

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Speaker 8: platinum equivalent material and that's up three point seven percent

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Speaker 8: year on year, and you know, the market receiving that

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Speaker 8: relatively well. And indeed, all of the platinum stocks again

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Speaker 8: today going well. And I mean if you look at

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Speaker 8: the year today performance for the platinum stock Sebunya up

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Speaker 8: twenty percent, having done three hundred percent last year, in

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Speaker 8: part of platinum up another nearly twenty percent as well,

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Speaker 8: So you know, it's a good environment for the platinum stocks.

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Speaker 8: It's a good environment for the platinum price, and you

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Speaker 8: know they continue to go well.

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Speaker 2: And I mean gold as well, and particularly this year's silver.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, silver, I mean, not a very easy way to

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Speaker 8: get exposure to the silver price in the you know

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Speaker 8: South African listed context, but silver up today I think

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Speaker 8: another five and a half percent and all me a

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Speaker 8: liar up nearly thirty percent year to date, and I

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Speaker 8: think that is another all time high for silver. So

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Speaker 8: if you've got any old photographic equipment in the garage,

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Speaker 8: to go dig it out and see if you can

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Speaker 8: get some silver out of that, because worth a lot

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Speaker 8: more than it used to be.

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Speaker 2: Oil prices we've just been going up steadily through the week,

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Speaker 2: sort of a dollar a day at some point, come

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Speaker 2: off a little bit in the last sort of hour

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Speaker 2: and a half. I'm presuming that's mostly Iran. No one

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Speaker 2: really knows how this is going to end, and all

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Speaker 2: of the reports I see suggest that this is actually

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Speaker 2: becoming a lot more serious for the government in charge

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Speaker 2: than any other threat for quite some time.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, there's a bit of a media blackout,

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Speaker 8: so we're we're only hearing slippets in this, but we're

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Speaker 8: hearing our horrendous from a humanitarian perspective, and you know,

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Speaker 8: that's certainly driving the oil price up. Luckily, I guess

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Speaker 8: from a South African perspective, what we are losing on

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Speaker 8: the oil roundabouts, we're gaining on the rand dollar swings.

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Speaker 8: So the you know, rand oil price still behaving, okay,

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Speaker 8: but you know, certainly something to keep an eye on.

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Speaker 8: I don't think it's what anything to do with Venezuela.

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Speaker 8: I think associating Venezuela and the actions in it in

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Speaker 8: Venezuela to the oil market is possibly expedient for Prisent Trump,

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Speaker 8: but not particularly close to the truth.

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Speaker 2: Christian, thanks very much, indeed, portfolio manager at ninety one

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Speaker 2: do appreciate it. And sort of to tack onto the

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Speaker 2: end of that, will be hearing from the World Economic

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Speaker 2: from their Global Risks Report in a little while and

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Speaker 2: pretty much I think, and to be following on the

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Speaker 2: same theme, very worried about uncertainty, and the other issue

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Speaker 2: is geoeconomic competition. As to the big things I think

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Speaker 2: are going to be included in that conversation you're with

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Speaker 2: the Money Show just gone six thirty.

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Speaker 1: What have Stephen on seven two seven o two one,

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Speaker 1: seven oh two.

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Speaker 2: Well, I saw confirmation today that the US President Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump is going to go to the World Economic for

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Speaker 2: a meeting in Davos. And you might think to yourself, well,

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Speaker 2: why would he go to Davos. It's kind of the

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Speaker 2: epitome of everything he hates. Everybody's sort of working together

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Speaker 2: in a room. And I think it's pretty clear to

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Speaker 2: me why he's going. He's gonna make it all about him.

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Speaker 2: He's gonna walk into the room. It's gonna swagger a

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Speaker 2: little bit. He's gonna sort of show himself to be,

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Speaker 2: you know, the big man. Choose my words very carefully

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Speaker 2: here in the room. I think that's what he's gonna do.

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Speaker 2: He just loves the attention. And this is the thing

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Speaker 2: about Trump. More than anyone I've ever met, and I

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Speaker 2: work in radio, more than anyone I've ever met. He

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Speaker 2: craves the attention. I think he just can't he just

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Speaker 2: can't leave it alone. And he'll do what he sort

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Speaker 2: of does, you know, the strange things that he says

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Speaker 2: and all the rest. But I think it's just simple attention.

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Speaker 2: Sort of watching when he answers questions and when he

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Speaker 2: walks away afterwards, you can see loves it. I think

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Speaker 2: it's as simple as that. He just loves it. Shame

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Speaker 2: All The Lonely Show.

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Speaker 3: With Stephen Krut's Live on ninety two point seven and

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Speaker 3: one six FM, streaming on the Prime Media.

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Speaker 1: Plus NAP and TSTV channel eight five six.

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Speaker 2: The South African story of the last year has been

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Speaker 2: the huge increase in the gold price. In the fact,

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Speaker 2: gold just seems to be being rated as more and

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Speaker 2: more valuable today. The World Economic Forum releasing its Global

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Speaker 2: Risks Reports, showing uncertainty is the biggest risk many people

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Speaker 2: see and that would probably appear to explain why gold

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Speaker 2: is behaving as it is. Spiros Phertaorus is the CEO

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Speaker 2: of Marsh Africa, one of the people who helped compile

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Speaker 2: this report. Spiros, a good evening. I do appreciate the time.

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Speaker 2: Thank you the people you spoke to. What did they

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Speaker 2: say about the risk, particularly of uncertainty as they see it?

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Speaker 10: Stephen, thank you.

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Speaker 9: Yes.

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Speaker 10: So, the World Economic Forum publishes the Global Risk Report

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Speaker 10: and every year it's known it's some twenty first edition

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Speaker 10: and maybe just to give you a listener some context,

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Speaker 10: I think it serve as about thirteen hundred experts worldwide

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Speaker 10: and gets input from about eleven thousand business leaders, and

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Speaker 10: it's really as a pre course precursor.

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Speaker 5: To doubles every year.

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Speaker 10: So to answer your question, I mean, I think what's

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Speaker 10: really driving uncertainty is I think there's really been a

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Speaker 10: fundamental shift globally from an era of international cooperation to

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Speaker 10: one now mark pas sort of rivalry and fragmentation. I

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Speaker 10: think the global multipolar landscape has really changed, and he's

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Speaker 10: now been characterized more by declining trust amongst nations, and

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Speaker 10: it's quite a significant retreat from multilateral frameworks. And really

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Speaker 10: what this plays art is, as you know, as these

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Speaker 10: correct operative mechanisms erode, it undermines the ability of the

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Speaker 10: sort of international community to I think, really address the

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Speaker 10: share challenges that we face as a globe, you know,

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Speaker 10: particularly climate change, global health, and economic resilience. And I

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Speaker 10: think this really drives the uncertainty of business leaders and

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Speaker 10: global leaders in the new world order.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they're also huge concerns. The phrase that the

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Speaker 2: report uses is geoeconomic confrontation, and I mean immediately think

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Speaker 2: you think of sort of the US and China, But

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Speaker 2: what you also think is of the Trump tariffs last

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Speaker 2: year and it's uncertain whether they come back or not.

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Speaker 10: Correct, and I mean I think it's it's in a

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Speaker 10: geoeconomic confrontation is the number one risk in the short term,

437
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 10: and it's seen a massive increase from the prior. I

438
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 10: think it's up over eight points. I mean last year

439
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 10: the report highlighted and AI misinformation disinformation is the top risk.

440
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 10: But really what's happened in the world is is this

441
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 10: issue now around you know, Middle powers and global powers

442
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 10: really looking inwards and trying to focus on what's important

443
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 10: for them and really, as I said before, you know,

444
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 10: really putting at risk some of these global multilateral organizations.

445
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 2: You talk about AI and sort of misinformation and disinformation,

446
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,879
Speaker 2: And yes, they might have slid down the level in

447
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 2: terms of what is the thing I'm most scared of

448
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: right now, but they haven't gone away as risks surely.

449
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: I mean, they seem to have the power to shape

450
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 2: narratives and all sorts of things.

451
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 11: Correct, they still I mean, the report really.

452
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 10: Breaks the risks into three horizons. You know, what we

453
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 10: expect in twenty six what we expect in the next

454
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 10: two years, and what we expect in the next ten years.

455
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 10: But the risks they pretty stable for twenty sixth and

456
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 10: in the next two years. And as you've said, you know, AI, cybersecurity,

457
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 10: and really economic concerns are really in the top five,

458
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 10: with the fifth one really being INTE popping up there.

459
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 10: But as you shift to the tenure horizon, you know,

460
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 10: the top five risks are all dominated by environmental concerns.

461
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 10: So the ar is there. And what's interesting as well

462
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 10: is the report does highlight sort of adverse outcomes of

463
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 10: AAR has seen actually the biggest risk in moving from

464
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,719
Speaker 10: the two year horizon to the ten year horizon without

465
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 10: shifting up over sort of thirty points in a ranking perspective.

466
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 10: So it articulates that, you know, business leaders and the

467
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 10: server respondents don't really know what AR will bring us

468
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 10: as you extend the horizon to five and ten years.

469
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: I mean, so every year you do, the risk remportant

470
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: and there's always you know, a greater risk or something

471
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: that's come in or something that's receded as a risk.

472
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: It's slightly harder to ask is the world facing more

473
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 2: risk or more intensified risk or is the world a

474
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 2: risky at place now than it was last year? I

475
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: have to say, though my guts to that question, the

476
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: gut answer would be absolutely, it's riskier now than it

477
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,239
Speaker 2: was a year ago, and riskier now than it was

478
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 2: kind of anytime, perhaps before the pandemic.

479
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 10: There's definitely been a trend year on here where you know,

480
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 10: risks are spiral in intensity, And what the report does

481
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 10: really try harlight is the interconnected nature of risks from

482
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 10: a short term perspective and a long term perspective, and

483
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 10: the two most interconnected risks where everything plays into is

484
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 10: not surprisingly social inequality and sort of economic downturn, and

485
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 10: those are the two most interconnected risks that you can

486
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 10: see how it really feeds into them. But there's no

487
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 10: doubt that if we look here on here, there's definitely

488
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 10: pessimism that's moved in from a respondent perspective. Over fifty

489
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 10: seven percent of the respondents think that the next ten

490
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 10: years are going to be way more turbulent than seen

491
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 10: in the past.

492
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 2: Sure, that's a that's a big figure. I mean, it's

493
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: interesting what you talk about with inequality, because inequality we

494
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 2: often think of as a sort of South African conversation,

495
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 2: but more and more people in other parts of the

496
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 2: world are beginning to worry about it where they are

497
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 2: and globally.

498
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 10: Correct, I mean, it's definitely become as there Stevens, Sorry,

499
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 10: yes we are for us. Sorry, Yes, I think you're right.

500
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 10: I think globally it has become an issue and it's

501
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 10: not sort of confined to South Africa or Africa. You know,

502
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 10: there's a real the report highlights there's real sort of

503
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 10: trend of you know, streets versus elise and you know

504
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 10: we see that playing out, you know, politically you see

505
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 10: that play out from a protest perspective. We see that

506
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 10: all over the world.

507
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: Spiros, thanks very much. Indeed, Spirits for Tourists is the

508
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: CEO of Marsh Africa.

509
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 12: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

510
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 12: by absce cib a Pan African bank invested in your

511
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 12: story and the potential it can unlock because your story matters.

512
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 2: How does the rased FSP eight minutes now to seven.

513
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 2: You heard the conversation there about global economic risks or

514
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 2: risks of the global economy and the phrase geoeconomic competition

515
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 2: or confrontation rather. And one company in South Africa that

516
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 2: may be benefiting from the kind of rivalry that would

517
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: lead to geoeconomic confrontation is Rainbow Rare Earths. They've received

518
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: over eight hundred million round in financing from the US

519
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 2: International Development Finance Corporation. They're now starting operations at a

520
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: pilot plant near joe Burg. George Burnett is the CEO

521
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: of Rainbow Rare Earth. George, good evening. I know it's

522
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: a big week for you, so thank you. What kind

523
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: of rare earths are you looking at producing? If it

524
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: all goes according to plan?

525
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 5: Good evening to your listeners, thanks for that. So we

526
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 5: are going to be producing what's known as separated near

527
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 5: dymium and presidinium, which your key two key elements ago

528
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 5: what's known as permanent magnets, as well as an seg

529
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 5: plus which is samarium, europeum and gandelium and all the

530
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 5: other heavy road elements that sit in a basket similar

531
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 5: to a platinum group metal's basket. When your mind reverse,

532
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 5: you get all your rese in a basket. We will

533
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 5: be separating tubo vers out of the basket. The rest

534
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 5: of the basket will create a one basket and that

535
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 5: will be sent to off take you for further separation.

536
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 5: But in that basket we've got very very valuable disprosium

537
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 5: and terbium, which are also critical res required for permanent magnets.

538
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 5: They're known as heavies and these these those two root

539
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 5: elements are also very key in defense applications as well

540
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 5: as the trium, another Q reord that's required in defense applications.

541
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 5: So rus that become a very powerful political tool, as

542
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 5: you quite rightly point out, and they critical for all

543
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 5: modern technology. Every bit of modern techt can think of

544
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 5: requires realth elements in some form as well as defense applications.

545
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: Are they difficult to mind? The deposits that you're looking at.

546
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 5: Well, we're extracting nerves out of waste product called phosphogypsum,

547
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 5: which was created as a results of phosphoric acid production.

548
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 5: Then Plobora by Cecil the big chemical conglomerates. So when

549
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 5: they produce phosphoric acid, they use the feat stocks with

550
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 5: a feat stock known as the phosphate hydrock slurry. Theres

551
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 5: are presents in the phosphate hard rock, but not in

552
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 5: economic quantities. But because you concentrate that slurry, put it

553
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 5: through a phosphoric acid production process and created gyps and

554
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 5: waste residue, there is now the port with the waste

555
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 5: gyps and weights into these two stacks at Paliboa and

556
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 5: the rors who are upgraded in this process and announce

557
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 5: its a very economic quantities in the gypsum waste stacks.

558
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 5: Rares are actually not that rare, but they're very rare

559
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 5: economic quantities, and they're very difficult. Not so much to mind,

560
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 5: but they're difficult to process and to extract. And that's

561
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 5: the key that Rainber has cracked with phosphogypsum and we've

562
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 5: done it successfully and we're now doing our last stage

563
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 5: or piloting before we go into commercial production where we

564
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 5: target to twenty twenty eight.

565
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: Okay, so the way this has been produced in the

566
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: history of it, I mean, what does this mean? This

567
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: is really a sort of unique opportunity. There's nothing out there.

568
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: There's no other economically viable deposits of this stuff in

569
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: South Africa, unfortunately, was what our takeaway from that.

570
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 5: Not really. There is a small waste residue in Richard's

571
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 5: Bay and it's almost depleted that it was owned by Fossall.

572
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 5: And we have a project in Brazil where there's a

573
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 5: global socilizer business called Mosaic. We are also we're also

574
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 5: producing the gyps and Waste Residuy POSPI gyps and Waiste

575
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 5: residue from NEPOS podcasts production facilities in Brazil. But the

576
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 5: beauty about that project gets a live stack, so it's

577
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 5: got another forty years of love. And we have a

578
00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 5: similar project running in Brazil with a partnership with most.

579
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 5: So we did two very key opportunities.

580
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: I pointed out that the US International Development Finance Corporation

581
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: had given you quite a lot of finance Georgia. I

582
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,479
Speaker 2: hate to be so blunt, but does that mean that

583
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: what you produce you have to sell to the US first?

584
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 5: No. Basically, the basis of that finance on the DMC

585
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 5: is that it's fifty million dollars committed for in when

586
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 5: we go to full commercial production, So fifty million dollars

587
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 5: of equity I don't have to raise at that point

588
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 5: in time. And the only thing is that we cannot

589
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 5: sell to non what they call non A lane countries

590
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 5: that's Russia around China or North Korea. But we can

591
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 5: sell to Australia, Japan, South Korea, Europe and the US

592
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 5: or North America.

593
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: So I mean the things that you're I want to

594
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 2: said mining, but maybe processing is a better word.

595
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 5: It's a chemical processing facility.

596
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: Correct, Okay. Does the price sort of go up and

597
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: down as other sort of minerals do, and particularly sort

598
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: of raarer minerals, or does it stay within a kind

599
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: of fixed band? And I imagine it sort of depends

600
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 2: on what's happening in the relationship between the Earth and China,

601
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 2: and China is generally one of the bigger producers of

602
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 2: things like this.

603
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 5: No, rare prices have been quite volatile because the Chinese

604
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 5: manipulate the passing you know, for the last couple of years,

605
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 5: they've pushed the passing way down to a sort of

606
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 5: a centgrical low to prevent REarth projects in the waste

607
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 5: coming on stream. Rainbow. Fortunately, because we're not a mining project,

608
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 5: we treating waste residue, we've got a much lower cost.

609
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 5: So our catics and opics is significantly lower than the

610
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 5: typical REarth project. And with that we all got one

611
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 5: of the highest margins of any project and development in

612
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 5: the world today. So because seventy five percent everydom margin,

613
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 5: and with that we can withstand the low point in

614
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 5: the past. So the low points in the passing cycle,

615
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 5: which was sort of during twenty twenty five, even though

616
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 5: they'd low point that we were in production, we still

617
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 5: would have made a significant amount of money. And then

618
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 5: that facilitated the deal between the Department of Defense in

619
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 5: America and Empty Materials in America, the biggest earth producer

620
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 5: of primary rooth concentrate outside of China, to do a

621
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 5: deal with They set the four prices for neargineum and

622
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 5: presidenium and one hundred and ten dollars a kilogram, so

623
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 5: that was a significant game changer for the market, and

624
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 5: since then we've seen the price of new geneum and

625
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 5: presidentium in China, which is the two key root elements

626
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 5: for perman magnets brass, to over one hundred dollars a

627
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 5: kilogram now, so it's basically aligned with that benchmark price

628
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 5: set by the DoD last year in the US.

629
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: I presume there must be a worldwide hunt on for

630
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 2: other sources of this stuff, other sources like the one

631
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: that you now control.

632
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 5: There are a couple other people who are looking at it,

633
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 5: but most people are approaching us because we've developed the

634
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 5: RP to expect looked at extracting various other postil gypsum

635
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 5: for petio years, but none of it's ever been done

636
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 5: on an economic basis. So there are lots of academic

637
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 5: papers there've been done and sort of the university laboratories,

638
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 5: but it's never been done on a large scale commercial scale.

639
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 5: And our pilot point rerunning is probably about sixty ten

640
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 5: times larger than a typical minerals process in pilot plant,

641
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,479
Speaker 5: So it's a large scale pilot plant just to prove

642
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 5: if we can scale this up, and we're not using

643
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 5: any significant technology at our pie sits and the reagents,

644
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 5: your reason you're dosing, and the various concentrations, and then

645
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 5: how combined all these elements to extecut yours on the fosterogypsum.

646
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 5: And we've been able to do that successfully at Rainbow.

647
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: Thanks very much. Indeed, George Burnett is the CEO of

648
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: Rainbow Rares. Fascinating business to be in. Fascinating opportunity that's

649
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 2: been spotted and obviously being taken advantage of. Don't forget

650
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: our shape shift tonight. The chair of the Commissioner rather

651
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 2: of the International Trade Hainsation Commission, Iabanga Kawe. I think

652
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: it's going to be a very interesting conversation. You used

653
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: to work in radio. You have The Money Show seven o'clock.

654
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Sridis on seven

655
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: oh two. Let's walk little.

656
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis has brought to you

657
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 2: by ABS of Corporate and Investment Banking, a Pan African

658
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 2: bank that's invested in your story because your story matters.

659
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 2: Good evening, it's seven minutes after seven. I'm Stephen Critis

660
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: for lots to come. Don't forget Ayabuga Kawe as your

661
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: shape shifter, someone who has had a very sort of

662
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 2: interesting life from the Eastern Cape. If I remember correctly,

663
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: we'll ask him. But also once described himself in a

664
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: newspaper article as the grandchild of peasants, and I think,

665
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: like so many people in our country, comes from a

666
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: background that's changed very very quickly. So I think there

667
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,479
Speaker 2: are stories there. And then also the complexities of international trade.

668
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: I think that's why he likes it. I find trade

669
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: can sort of blow your mind, if you you know,

670
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 2: because there's so many consequences to literally everything we do.

671
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 2: So looking forward to that conversation. Well here from Wendy Nola,

672
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: your consumer Ninja. She is talking tonight about credit records

673
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 2: and Superior Moyo in a moment the organizational behavior specialist.

674
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: He is talking about positivity and why it's not toxic

675
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 2: if you do it correctly. There are some people and

676
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: some times I'll see something on social media or wherever.

677
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: I'll get the odd email from someone and I'm just like, no,

678
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 2: take the positivity away. I mean I first thought that

679
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: it was me and not them, and that I was

680
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 2: just getting old, but then I was like seriously, like seriously, no,

681
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 2: that kind of positivity is toxic. It's quite a strange thing,

682
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,280
Speaker 2: toxic positivity. How to do positivity well?

683
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: In just a moment The Money Show with Stephen on

684
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: two seven.

685
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: O two, John Cenhayesen speaking as the Agricultural Minister today,

686
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: saying he's going to ask cabinets to declare foot and

687
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: mouth disease a disaster. Essentially, he wants the police to

688
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: play a more active role in stopping the movement of livestock.

689
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: It's very difficult to actually do. In some cases in

690
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 2: the Eastern Cape, for example, over hills, people will walk

691
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,439
Speaker 2: animals to their brother or their sister's family, as they've

692
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 2: done for generations, and I think it's very hard to

693
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: stop that. What you can do is stop the large

694
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: scale movement, which usually involves vehicles of some kind. But

695
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 2: I was also interested, and he says he's going to

696
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: try and make South Africa sort of FMD three in

697
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 2: ten years. What I still don't quite understand is why

698
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 2: we were no longer producing vaccine doses for foot and

699
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: mouth disease. In fact, we had to import the first ones,

700
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 2: I think from Botswana. If memory serves, we're not allowed

701
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: to take our vegetables into Botswana. But we can buy

702
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: their vaccines. It's a strange world sometimes. And someone I

703
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 2: bumped into the holidays from Botswana was telling me that,

704
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: in fact, he's been x ray to make sure he

705
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 2: wasn't bringing vegetables into the country. I mean seriously, but

706
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: I still don't quite understand and I don't have it

707
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: set in my own head as to why it is

708
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: we were not producing foot in mouth vaccines. This, by

709
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 2: the way, is not something one can blame John Stenna's

710
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: and for. This is something that will go back sometime.

711
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 2: And I know that we've seen also something Clobar speaking

712
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 2: about it over the years and saying that we need

713
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 2: to sort of bring this back. What I hope is

714
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 2: that it does lead to sort of a better kind

715
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: of long term response in you know, two foot in mouth.

716
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 9: It is a.

717
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: Difficult disease to deal with. It does cost farmers money.

718
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 2: It also distresses the animals. But surely having vaccine doses

719
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: would be the right way to go. Could hear from

720
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: you tonight? By the way, oh double one double A

721
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: three seven two two one four for six oh five

722
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 2: six seven and voice notes on seven two seven oh

723
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 2: two one seven oh two. Who's the most positively toxic person.

724
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 2: You can imagine be very interested to hear your voice

725
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 2: notes Tonight.

726
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: Show Business unusual.

727
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 2: So bare Moil is the organizational behavior specialist and he

728
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 2: joins us now so bway good evening. Positivity and toxicity.

729
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: And at first when I first heard the phrase toxic

730
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: posit toxic positivity, I kind of couldn't quite understand it.

731
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 2: And yet I think many people sort of talk about

732
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 2: positivity almost in a sort of negative way, kind of

733
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: can be quite irritating if it's done badly.

734
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 11: It's such a tricky thing stiven to have because I

735
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 11: think there's nothing wrong with positivity. It's not a problem

736
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 11: at all. But I think we're having this performative or

737
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 11: shallow positivity right when you're trying to tell your boss

738
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 11: something that is not going right and they say you're

739
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 11: always complaining, You never look at the bright side. You

740
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 11: feel dismissed, you feel like someone is not listening. So

741
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 11: I think the main thing is when people feel like

742
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 11: they're being dismissed, when people feel like we're not facing

743
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 11: their reality that we have head on, as if positivity

744
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 11: wants to ignore the facts or it's a contextual I

745
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 11: think we're having situations where now there are people who

746
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 11: are really really pushing back around positivity. But I think

747
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 11: for me, it's not really about pretending that things are

748
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 11: not bad, but it's about broadening our perspective. One of

749
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 11: the key elements of positivity is that it broad into

750
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 11: your perspective. It allows you to see whether that different

751
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 11: other paths that you can look at, you know where,

752
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 11: or pathway that you can look at. One of the

753
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 11: problems with negativity, and shall we call it toxic as well,

754
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 11: is that it blocks any paths of thinking, so it

755
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 11: doesn't broad in your your thinking. And that's the main

756
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 11: problem that we have.

757
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 2: I mean, the one thing I don't know why it is,

758
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 2: but the form of communication that I think toxic positivity

759
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: comes through most and is email. And that's because it's

760
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: managers speaking to workers or bosses or CEOs or whatever.

761
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 2: And I know I've watched in international media, actually people

762
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 2: have started taking this off, you know, they've started ripping

763
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: this off. And it's always in the form of an emails.

764
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: It's actually, you can it's something that almost happens in

765
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 2: written form. It's quite hard to be toxically positive face

766
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 2: to face with someone exactly.

767
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 11: And that reason form the main reason it does not

768
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 11: work is that we're not looking each other and the eye.

769
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 11: There's no benefit of oxytoxin as you look some people

770
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 11: in the eye and it doesn't acknowledge the pain. You

771
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 11: don't really see whether the person can acknowledge and really

772
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 11: see some of.

773
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 9: The struggles that you are having at work.

774
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 11: So it feels like nobody's listening to me. There's some

775
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 11: ivory tower email that is coming through, so it does

776
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 11: not really give you space. And the main thing around

777
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 11: what separates suffage positivity or what people call toxic positivity

778
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 11: with genuine one is the ability to hear people out.

779
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 11: Is the ability to feel like someone is acknowledging my feelings,

780
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 11: acknowledging that I mean, there's really is tough times that

781
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 11: I'm going through and then nudge me towards positivity eventually.

782
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 11: But the main thing is just that containing and understanding

783
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 11: and hearing people out most of the time. Seeing people

784
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 11: would nudge themselves towards positivity anyway once they feel like

785
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 11: you have had them. Most of the time, it's the

786
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 11: dismissal when people feel they're not being had that is

787
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 11: often called genuine positivity.

788
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: How do you be toxic? Yeah, so then how do

789
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: you be positive without the toxicity. I mean, you've got

790
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: to be You've got to take into account reality, you've

791
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 2: got to be looking speaking to people. I suppose you've

792
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: also got to really kind of make sure you know

793
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 2: what the real situation is.

794
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 11: Yeah, it's just a matter of listening. They didn't listen

795
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 11: to people understand where they're coming from and and hear

796
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 11: them where they're coming from. It's just that interesting balance

797
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 11: where once people feel their head, they're able to reframe.

798
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 11: So we're definitely not saying that people should wallow in negativity,

799
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 11: but once you listen to people and then afterwards you

800
00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 11: can face reality head on with them. So if you

801
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 11: look at the science of languishing, for example, as opposed

802
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 11: to flourishing, So sometimes when you're having that feeling of math,

803
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 11: that feeling that I'm tired, that something is just not

804
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 11: making sense. Most of the time, what can move you

805
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 11: from that feeling of languishing and towards flourishing is just

806
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 11: someone being able to listen to you, someone being able

807
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 11: to hear you contain your feeling. And because most of

808
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 11: the time people have thoughts, people have feelings they want

809
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 11: to be had, and people sometimes have these big feelings

810
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 11: that they just want somebody to listen to. So when

811
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 11: we can listen to people, and then eventually we can

812
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 11: reframe and we can start looking at the evidence. And

813
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 11: for example, when you look at the noise that is

814
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 11: coming out of twenty twenty six stiven in the global events,

815
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 11: and you look at that noise, you realize that actually

816
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 11: negativity is not going to help us at all. We

817
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 11: definitely do need positivity. But once you do not acknowledge

818
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 11: that there is so much noise in the cool environment

819
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 11: as well, you just look like a dismissing and you

820
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 11: look like a person who is definitely toxically positive.

821
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 2: Sapi Moya, thanks so much, really appreciated, the organizational behavior specialist.

822
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: On the Money Shows six to eight pm.

823
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 2: Well, I made a comment a moment ago about the

824
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 2: fact that I don't quite understand why we were not

825
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: able to produce our own vaccines at the start of

826
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 2: the put In Mouth outbreak, and as luck would have it,

827
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 2: the Pepening Saraje, who's the Deputy Director General responsible for

828
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 2: biosecurity at the Department of Agriculture, has called in and

829
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 2: presume deep Pepening to put me right. Good evening. Thanks

830
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 2: for the call. Particulars right, Deepepening. I'm just going to

831
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 2: put you back to our producer to try and improve

832
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: the reception on that cell phone. Might require a call back,

833
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: just to make sure that we're able to hear you properly.

834
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 2: I would hate to lose the opportunity for you to

835
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 2: respond to what I said, because I do think clearly

836
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 2: you felt that it was important to respond to obviously

837
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: as well. Of course, this is an issue that's affected

838
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: so many farmers and something that people have been very

839
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 2: very concerned about as well. So yeah, obviously very important issue.

840
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: I think. Also we must just remember that if you

841
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 2: get these things wrong, the consequences I mean, and look

842
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 2: at what's been happening for inflation, for example, all of

843
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 2: those things start to become more and more important. So,

844
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 2: you know, certainly important to try and understand what the

845
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 2: Agriculture Department has done and why we are where we are.

846
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 2: That's also the other issue that sometimes is very important

847
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 2: to try and understand is why it is that we're

848
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 2: actually in a position where we find that we were

849
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: not it seemed to me as properly prepared as we

850
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 2: needed to be. We'll try and get deep pippeninser Rachaback

851
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 2: on the radio for you. It's seventeen minutes now after

852
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 2: seven The Money Show.

853
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 3: With Stephen Krute Live on ninety two point seven and

854
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: one six. Have them streaming on the Prime Media Plus.

855
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 1: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

856
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 2: The Money Show Consumer Ninja. Well, I don't know if

857
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: you've spent much time looking at your credit record. I

858
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 2: was trying to remember when was the last time I

859
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 2: checked my credit record? And I'm sorry to tell you,

860
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 2: I don't know if I can answer that question. Well,

861
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: it suddenly starts to become quite important. In fact, this

862
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: time last year, the credit bureau trans Union said one

863
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 2: in three people check their credit records on a monthly basis.

864
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: That's quite a big improvement and a but it's still

865
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: only about a third of people who actually have credit

866
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 2: what you would call credit active South African, so still

867
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 2: a lot of room to go. Wendy Knowler's your consumer Ninja,

868
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 2: she joins us. Now, Wendy, good evening. Remind us why

869
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 2: is it so important to check our credit record? Why

870
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 2: have I been a bad boy?

871
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,439
Speaker 13: Okay, lots of reasons really to verify that? What there

872
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 13: is accurate, So from simple things like your personal details

873
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 13: when I checked man the addresses were, you know, twenty

874
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 13: years old, that kind of thing. And also to check

875
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 13: that the listings there good and bad are correct. So

876
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 13: there's a huge number of people who are sitting with

877
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 13: prescribed debt on their credit records, which is actually illegal.

878
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 14: The credit provider's cannuntal list.

879
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 13: Prescribe debt there, so you might have a lower score

880
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 13: be rejected for a credit application because of something that

881
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 13: shouldn't be sitting on your record is very very old debt.

882
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 13: And then big one to see if you've been the

883
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 13: victim of id impersonation, in which case you must immediately

884
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 13: get protective registration from the African Fraud Prevention Service. Very

885
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 13: important that and then also to work on getting your

886
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 13: qudit score upright. That's the number between zero and nine

887
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,919
Speaker 13: hundred and ninety nine, because the higher that number, the

888
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 13: better the interest rate you're going to be offered. And

889
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 13: also it looks good for perspective. If you're applying to

890
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 13: rent somewhere or.

891
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,760
Speaker 14: You're appaying for a job, they do look at that score.

892
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 13: So there's lots of reasons to kind of have a

893
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 13: look check and I know what you're about.

894
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 14: That's your that's your financial ID.

895
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 2: Ready, okay, so it's important to do Did something trigger

896
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 2: your sudden interest in this?

897
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 13: As always there? In fact, there were two things, and

898
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 13: they linked. I had sight of guidelines for credit providers

899
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 13: which the National Credit Provider put out during December to,

900
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,280
Speaker 13: as they put it, clarify the standard of credible evidence

901
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 13: required to verify disputed consumer credit information, to ensure that

902
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 13: everything's done fairly and incorrectly. And it would seem that's

903
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 13: been done, because obviously it's not always being done all

904
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 13: that fairly. People are being told yes, it's right and

905
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 13: without much investigation. And then secondly, Lester emailed me just

906
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 13: yesterday for advice on his situation. He's discovered that he

907
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 13: was listed by a debt collection legal practice for a

908
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 13: twenty thirteen Edgar's debt, and when he said that the

909
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,240
Speaker 13: debt was long prescribed and therefore the listing should be removed,

910
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 13: the phone went went dead in his ear. So I'll

911
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 13: be taking yeah, I'll be taking up that case to

912
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 13: ensure that that listing for the very old debt is removed.

913
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 2: But when someone does that, you know automatically they know

914
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: that they're in the wrong and they shouldn't even have

915
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 2: tried exactly exactly.

916
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 13: So there's a lot in the banking on put out

917
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 13: warnings about this. There's yeah, there are prescribed debts that

918
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 13: shouldn't be there, and the NCR guidelines. That document that

919
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 13: went out last month made for very interesting reading because

920
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 13: I don't think consumers realize the extent of the legal

921
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 13: right they have in this regard when contesting things that

922
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,400
Speaker 13: shouldn't be on their credit record.

923
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 14: What sort of.

924
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 2: Rights do we have to our credit record in the

925
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 2: first Okay, I'm.

926
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 13: Going to try and simplify a very long, wordy technical document,

927
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 13: so you may submit supporting documents when you dispute a listing.

928
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 13: But this is the interesting part. The primary duty to

929
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 13: locate credible evidence rests with the credit bureaus and data supplies.

930
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 13: In other words, they must prove to you.

931
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 14: That that listing deserves to be there on your record,

932
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 14: and if they can't, they have to remove it.

933
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 13: So the advice is, if a person has challenged the

934
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 13: accuracy of information proposed to be reported to your credit bureau,

935
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 13: it must that evidence must be given to that person,

936
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 13: or if they can't find any evidence, it must be

937
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 13: removed within thirty days of the dispute. Evidence must consist

938
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 13: of objective, factual records and not opinions or unsupported assertions

939
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 13: bear confirmations. I'm reading from the document now, I either

940
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 13: listing is correct, do not meet the standard. So that

941
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 13: tells me, Steven, that there's quite a lot of that

942
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 13: go away kind of stuff going on where the bureaus

943
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 13: and the company is supplying with them with the information

944
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 13: are required to prove that that listing is valid and

945
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 13: if they can't, it must be removed.

946
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 14: So just to let people know that they have a

947
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 14: lot of rights in this regard, and this is a

948
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 14: really interesting thing. This was news to me.

949
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,839
Speaker 13: Credit bureaus mussed on receipt of a dispute. So that's

950
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 13: you and me saying, hey, that's not a valid blacklisting.

951
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 13: They must temporarily mask the disputed information during the investigation,

952
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 13: which is a thirty day process. So in other words,

953
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 13: the adverse listing you've disputed can't be visible to any

954
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 13: credit providers during that thirty day dispute process.

955
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 2: Now sure, I didn't know that. That's very interesting. Okay,

956
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 2: so checking your credit record, you need to check it

957
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 2: quite often, how I mean, how do you even do

958
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: it to make sure that you don't sort of get

959
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 2: a nasty shot.

960
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 13: Yeah, okay, So those people do find out something that's

961
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 13: not great on their record when they apply for a

962
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 13: soften contract or home loan or whatever the case may be,

963
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 13: and that's not a great way to find.

964
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 14: Out that there's something not right with your record.

965
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 13: So legally you're entitled to a free check once a year,

966
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 13: but there are four credit bureaus, so you can get

967
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 13: free check technically every three months. Interestingly, by law, they

968
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 13: don't that's a National Credit Act. They don't have to

969
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 13: give you a score. Really, what do you want to

970
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 13: see the score? They only have to give you access

971
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 13: to your report, So that's weird.

972
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 2: But anyway, yeah, exactly.

973
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 13: So last a new TransUnion doesn't give you your score,

974
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 13: but I think experience does with you there there, you

975
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 13: should definitely be on top of it. Don't let some

976
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 13: credit provider tell you that there's an issue. You need

977
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 13: to know what's going on there.

978
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 2: And the best is to improve to increase your credit score.

979
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 2: I mean, this is something that lots of people are

980
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: going to want to know exactly.

981
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 13: So the main one is to pay every bill at

982
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 13: least the minimum amount you but if you can do

983
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 13: more than that, that's going to increase your score because people.

984
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 14: Don't want to that.

985
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 13: Credit providers don't want to see that you can only

986
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 13: like really manage to scrape by that minimum amount, So

987
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 13: pay a little bit more and then and a very

988
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 13: powerful heck a lot of people don't know is to

989
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 13: is to improve your so called credit utilization ratio. So

990
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 13: avoid spending more than forty percent of your available credit limit.

991
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 13: And a lot of people just thinking what they are

992
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 13: living close to the edge, living close to the edge

993
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 13: of a limit maxing out your credit cards, as we

994
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,800
Speaker 13: put it locally, is really not a good way to

995
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 13: It's going to be to the detriment of your credit score.

996
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 14: So if, and this is a big if, if.

997
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 13: You have strong financial discipline, apply You know, these credit

998
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 13: providers always trying to invite us to increase our credit limit, right,

999
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 13: So if you have strong financial discipline, apply for a

1000
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 13: higher credit limit without increasing your spending. So that's the

1001
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 13: way you can keep it under forty percent. That lowers

1002
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 13: your ratio, signaling signaling to the banks that you've got

1003
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 13: great self control and improving your score. For everyone that

1004
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 13: wants to look at it. But again, only use this

1005
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 13: tactic if you can avoid the temptation to regard that

1006
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 13: credit limit as a spending target, which many people do.

1007
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 13: So yeah, under forty percent, you're going to do your

1008
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:46,800
Speaker 13: score a huge favor.

1009
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 2: Sure that does make sense. When you Nola, thank you

1010
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 2: so much, ready to appreciate it. You're consuming Ninja Wendy

1011
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 2: Nola on the Money Show tonight.

1012
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: It does on X at at Stephen It is.

1013
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 2: Twenty five minutes after seven, right. I think we've been

1014
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 2: able to make better contact now with the Deep Pepening Sarache,

1015
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: who is in charge of biosecurity at the Agricultural Ministry.

1016
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 2: I made a comment as that I don't quite understand

1017
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 2: why it was that we didn't have the right vaccine

1018
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 2: doses in South Africa and all of the startup of

1019
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 2: put in mouth he called in, we weren't able to

1020
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,919
Speaker 2: hear them because of the line. He's with us now,

1021
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 2: Deep Peppening, good evening. Sorry for all of the run around,

1022
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for calling. What is the real issue?

1023
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 9: Thank you very much for having us this short notice.

1024
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 15: The real issue is that veteran institute, which is a

1025
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 15: past inadas a state or antity of Btsuana has a

1026
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 15: member and of agreement with Agricultural Research Council, which is

1027
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 15: an entity of our department.

1028
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 9: This years back.

1029
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 15: Both these entities are what we call well reference lab

1030
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,760
Speaker 15: on within this southern part of Southern Africa.

1031
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 9: That contract exists.

1032
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 15: Let's put that away and can focus on now what's happening.

1033
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 15: The issue with Bosana from time to time burning our

1034
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 15: vegetables is a real concern. We we've been engaging even

1035
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 15: from the previous ministerments that it is a we've been

1036
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 15: trying and we hope we'll get it right because we've

1037
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 15: got what we call bi National Commission where the presidents

1038
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 15: of the two countries meet and set out what needs

1039
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,720
Speaker 15: to be done. We hope to have it resolved because

1040
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 15: it's unjustifiable in terms of any other international instrument for

1041
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 15: them to unily just block our.

1042
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 9: Export of our fruits and vegetables.

1043
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 15: We Botswana and I are South Africa are part of

1044
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 15: what you call SAKU South African Customs Union.

1045
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 9: These are countries that are interlinked.

1046
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 15: With the you know, the borders and all of that,

1047
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 15: and there are cities we call them articles which articles guys,

1048
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 15: how we countries to relate with each other trade wise and.

1049
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 9: All of that.

1050
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 15: Even using any of those articles, there's none of the

1051
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 15: articles that allowed them to do what they're doing. Now,

1052
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 15: let's come to the while we're buying the food and

1053
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 15: mouth disease virus from them, is because the of the

1054
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 15: agreement of a leader two between the two entities, the

1055
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 15: number entities are operating with their own boards and all

1056
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:28,439
Speaker 15: of that. But besides the strains, the food and mouth

1057
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 15: disease trains that affect the Southern African part ourselves in Mozambique, Malawi, Tanzania,

1058
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 15: those countries is the same strain. So any important vaccine

1059
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 15: or if you want to buy vaccines, or if you

1060
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 15: develop a vaccine, you develop it, it might be a

1061
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 15: FMD disease vaccine, but if it's not for the specific

1062
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 15: strain that is secreting at the time.

1063
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 2: It won't work.

1064
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 15: So Botswana happens to have the same strain as we have,

1065
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 15: so it's easier for us to import from them even ourselves.

1066
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 15: Once we are able to produce our own vaccines, they

1067
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 15: will also import from us and we will be able

1068
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 15: to also have Zimbabwe and others they don't have their

1069
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 15: own production like Uzana and South Africa.

1070
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 9: So so that will happen from time to time. Why

1071
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 9: are we not able to produce.

1072
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, why aren't we producing our own one?

1073
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:30,400
Speaker 15: That's the issue. We must be honest and frank South Africa.

1074
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 15: After nineteen ninety four, we we we stop investing in

1075
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 15: some of these paratatas. And the Guttural Research concl which

1076
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 15: is started in nineteen ninety was one of the best

1077
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 15: still is but it had infrastructure that the after nineteen

1078
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 15: ninety four. In nineteen ninety and after nineteen ninety four

1079
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 15: it became an entity of the Department of Agriculture, but

1080
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 15: there was a lot of disinvestment in these entities. Also

1081
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 15: with the honest the bought pological products as you know,

1082
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 15: the honest they bought political product was first part of.

1083
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 9: The Agricultural such Council.

1084
00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 15: And it was developed into incorporated genuries in one state

1085
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 15: owned vaccine and Biological Products company. We have not been

1086
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 15: investing in this company, so we lost our production capability

1087
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 15: in two thousand and six. We are only now bringing

1088
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 15: it in. We will plan everything else to bring it

1089
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 15: back to the capability. We hope to have our fat vaccines.

1090
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 15: In fact, we do have vaccines. They're not in sufficent quantities,

1091
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 15: but it's got. We should be in in a month time.

1092
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 15: We should be able to have our own vaccines coming

1093
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 15: rolling in. But the magnitude of what of the diseases

1094
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 15: says that we need additional importation.

1095
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 2: Deppending, I really appreciate you getting in touch with us.

1096
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 2: Thank you so much and explaining that I really do

1097
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 2: appreciate it. Depppending is the Deputy Director General for Biosecurity

1098
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 2: at the Agriculture Department.

1099
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 7: The Money Show shape Shifter.

1100
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 2: Is twenty two minutes now to eight the time. Well,

1101
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 2: in South Africa, you never really know where someone is

1102
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 2: going to end up. There's a person I know who

1103
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 2: is I suppose still a colleague, but certainly was a

1104
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 2: colleague in the radio business. That's where I first met him.

1105
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 2: We worked together a little bit in another medium, and

1106
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 2: once we spent several happy hours outside Parliament waiting for

1107
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 2: a budget speech to start. And now he's the Commissioner

1108
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 2: at the International Trade Administration Commission. I bon gatawe through

1109
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 2: it all, you've been a first rate economist. Good evening,

1110
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 2: and thanks so much for agreeing to be our shape

1111
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 2: shifter tonight.

1112
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 16: Well, thank you Steven for those kind of words, and

1113
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 16: I suddenly hope that many of the people I cross

1114
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 16: swords with will also think of me as a first

1115
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 16: rated economist. Thank you so much for inviting me, and

1116
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 16: good evening to your listeners as well.

1117
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 2: You've written about your family history a little, and particularly

1118
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 2: in the sort of Eastern Cape, and I came across

1119
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 2: a column in which you described yourself as the grandchild

1120
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 2: of peasants. What kind of family do you come from?

1121
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:04,959
Speaker 2: I mean, that particular area of the Eastern Cape sounds

1122
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 2: so much for the country and your your family's kind

1123
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 2: of from You're from right there?

1124
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, so so, Stephen. I'm from.

1125
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 16: I'm from the northern and very dry parts of the

1126
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 16: of the Eastern Cape. I grew up in Cormani, which

1127
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 16: for many years was known as as Queenstown, which had

1128
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 16: started as a defense settlement, not too dissimilar to some

1129
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 16: of the settlements we see in Palestine now in terms

1130
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 16: of the kind of political function it played in settled

1131
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 16: colonialism at the time.

1132
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 7: And when I say I'm the kind.

1133
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 16: Of grand child of peasants, I mean it in a

1134
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 16: true sense because a lot of my grandparents and great

1135
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 16: grandparents were people who had come from that area who

1136
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 16: also were farm workers, and so they from time to

1137
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 16: time would migrate from from that area to the neighboring

1138
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:03,040
Speaker 16: farms of many of the small towns bordering the Karoo

1139
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 16: in the Eastern Cape. And so I come, I come

1140
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 16: from that kind of stock, and I grew up in

1141
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 16: that part of the world and spent much of my

1142
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 16: formative years there until I came to fits for for university.

1143
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 7: And I also, I mean.

1144
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 16: I'm born from two teachers who are sort of quite

1145
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 16: active in their own communities, whether in the sports movement

1146
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 16: or even in the trade union movement.

1147
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 7: And so I kind of grewub in an environment.

1148
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 16: And if you know anything about that part of the

1149
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 16: Eastern Cape, you also know that kind of politics.

1150
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 7: And history is always very very near.

1151
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 16: And so so that's that's kind of where I come from.

1152
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 16: And I think it also rarely has motivated my own

1153
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 16: choices as to what ends.

1154
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 7: I would put my own economic training.

1155
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 16: As you were saying there, I guess you know you

1156
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,960
Speaker 16: and I worked for many years in the but I

1157
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 16: think what has been a consistent threat, certainly in my

1158
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 16: own work, whether in the ango space and management consulting

1159
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 16: and now back again in government where i'd started. Actually,

1160
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 16: my first job was in the provincial Economic agency in

1161
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 16: jo Deng.

1162
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 7: Has always been about, I guess.

1163
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:24,840
Speaker 16: This sort of consistent marshaling of my only economic training

1164
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 16: to very specific questions of a society and transition.

1165
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 2: Really, you you grew up with that, And I was

1166
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 2: going to ask where your sort of political consciousness came from,

1167
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 2: but I think to an extent you've answered it with

1168
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 2: what you say about your parents. But then you went

1169
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 2: to Queen's College, and I mean, it's interesting you talk

1170
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 2: about sort of settled towns fulfilling in political function. So

1171
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 2: do schools like that that I went to one very

1172
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 2: similar What was that experience like for you? I mean,

1173
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 2: was it accommodating of your political consciousness at the time. Yeah, well,

1174
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 2: I mean.

1175
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 16: It's interesting questions, Stephen, because you know, Queen's College is

1176
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 16: one of the oldest English boys schools in the country

1177
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 16: and very much in an English kind of settler colonial town.

1178
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 16: And I also went to Queen's College at a very

1179
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:17,959
Speaker 16: interesting time because we were i would say, probably part

1180
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 16: of the first few cohorts in the early nineteen nineties

1181
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 16: that as African and black children were accepted into the school.

1182
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 16: And I must say that the you know, if you

1183
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 16: think of the people that have come out of that

1184
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 16: particular school, leave aside all of the rugby and cricket players,

1185
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,919
Speaker 16: who are often quite well known, but if you think

1186
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 16: of a lot of the sort of politic of those

1187
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 16: who have a political band, very few.

1188
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 7: Of them are of the more left wing.

1189
01:04:48,920 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 16: I mean, if I think of Alistair Sparks, if I

1190
01:04:50,640 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 16: think of Errol Morcraft, who passed away a few weeks ago,

1191
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:57,480
Speaker 16: who had been the federal chair of the Democratic Alliance,

1192
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 16: Professor Andre Wadendal, who's a historian, and many others would

1193
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 16: probably be more of a center right band. But coming

1194
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 16: as I did, I think from a family that sort

1195
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 16: of was involved very much in the politics of the time,

1196
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:20,840
Speaker 16: and I certainly at some point would have had some

1197
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 16: tension in the school. And I think as I came

1198
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 16: of age and as I got a bit older in

1199
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 16: my teenage years, was also exposed to quite a lot

1200
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 16: of civic work. And also I think schools like that

1201
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 16: are distinguishable by the totality of involvement.

1202
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 7: So you're not only playing.

1203
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 16: Cricket and rugby, you're also involved in, you know, the

1204
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 16: debating society.

1205
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 7: You know, I ended up for all my sins.

1206
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 16: Kind of being involved in a school newspaper, and I

1207
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:55,840
Speaker 16: think a lot of that formative experience of getting involved

1208
01:05:55,880 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 16: beyond just the classroom stood me in good stead. Notwithstanding,

1209
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 16: I think a lot of the sort of tensions from

1210
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 16: just the worldview, and also recalled Stephen that by the

1211
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:11,160
Speaker 16: time I left the school, this was the start of

1212
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 16: the global financial crisis, and so already even in that

1213
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 16: small town, we're becoming exposed to all the economic machinations

1214
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 16: that are unfolding around us. And I think that that itself,

1215
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 16: that moment was quite instrumental in influencing me to take

1216
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 16: up training in economics after I left the school.

1217
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:32,360
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a reason why so many parents want

1218
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 2: their children to go to school sort of like that

1219
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:35,760
Speaker 2: because of the.

1220
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 7: Especially because it's a public school.

1221
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 16: That's the other element that a lot of people often

1222
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 16: get shocked when we say, look, this is a public school,

1223
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 16: and I think there are many similar public schools that,

1224
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 16: as we are seeing now with the results that are

1225
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 16: coming out, that really have maintained a very distinguishable record.

1226
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 2: So you go to Witz, and I don't want to

1227
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 2: ask you about you it's experience, but why economics in

1228
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 2: particular without the over financial crisis. I mean, that's a

1229
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 2: big without would it's still appine economics.

1230
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:08,760
Speaker 16: Yeah, look, I mean I think the school I went

1231
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 16: to didn't offer economics as a subject very and I

1232
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 16: remember there was, Yeah, there was this one teacher who,

1233
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 16: you know, whenever we would ask these political economy type questions,

1234
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 16: and even one of our history teachers, I remember what

1235
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:29,919
Speaker 16: was related Missus Saxton, who was certainly someone who really

1236
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,360
Speaker 16: I think opened our minds to a lot of things

1237
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 16: just about world history broadly, and whenever we would hit

1238
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 16: up against some of these things that the question would

1239
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 16: always arise from an economic advantage, but she would always say, look,

1240
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 16: you know, economics better explains it. And I think that

1241
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 16: that left a particular curiosity in my mind. When I

1242
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 16: got to Woods, i'd applied for another program and I

1243
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 16: ended up kind of going across the West campus and

1244
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 16: signing up for an economics.

1245
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 7: And law made which I dropped the law at the

1246
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 7: end of the.

1247
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 16: First year took up finances as a second major. Always

1248
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:09,479
Speaker 16: knew Steven even during my undergraduate training that I would

1249
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 16: never work in the bank, nor kind of work in

1250
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 16: financial markets per se. But I think It was fascinating

1251
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:20,520
Speaker 16: for me to study finance at a time when financial

1252
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:24,160
Speaker 16: markets were in flux, at a time when you had

1253
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 16: Dodd Frank Act in the United States, you had increasing

1254
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,839
Speaker 16: scrutiny over the regulation of capital markets in South Africa

1255
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 16: and the world more broadly, especially after what had happened

1256
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 16: with the nineteen ninety eight financial crisis and the two

1257
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:38,839
Speaker 16: thousand and seven.

1258
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:42,879
Speaker 7: Eight episode that was triggered by the Lehman brothers.

1259
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 16: And so it was interesting for me to in the

1260
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 16: classroom then get the tools to make sense of why

1261
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 16: so many people that I had known had lost their jobs,

1262
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 16: why so many people that I had known had had

1263
01:08:55,439 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 16: their homes foreclosed, had their possessions had taken because they

1264
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:03,800
Speaker 16: couldn't service their own debt obligations.

1265
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 7: And I think it gave me an insight into.

1266
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 16: Not just political economy, but also I think the world

1267
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 16: of high finance and what about that world from an

1268
01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 16: allocate advantage point was quite problematic, And I think it's

1269
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:23,639
Speaker 16: filtered through a lot in my work where I try

1270
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 16: and make sense of this paradox of South Africa having

1271
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 16: very deep sophisticated financial and capital markets and yet you

1272
01:09:31,400 --> 01:09:34,839
Speaker 16: still certainly from nineteen eighty five in South Africa onwards

1273
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:37,639
Speaker 16: have a crisis of under investment, where you've got fixed

1274
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:42,680
Speaker 16: investment reaching nowhere near kind of a quarter of GDP,

1275
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 16: which is often seen as the measure of any society

1276
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,919
Speaker 16: that is on the mend trying to really undertake structural

1277
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 16: transformation and change. And yet you've got all this money

1278
01:09:53,240 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 16: sitting in household balance sheets and company balance sheets. But

1279
01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:01,000
Speaker 16: the question of its allocation to fixed investment that sinks shafts,

1280
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 16: opens up factories, expands farms, mills, and so on is

1281
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 16: often a very problematic thing. And I think that you

1282
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:12,880
Speaker 16: I then began to understand that not everything could be

1283
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 16: explained within the toolbox of finance, that there were certain

1284
01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 16: other elements that would inform the investment behavior off a

1285
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 16: society beyond just you know, ISLM, macroeconomic models and all

1286
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:29,040
Speaker 16: the other stuff who were taught it with. And I

1287
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 16: always say to people that I probably learned more outside

1288
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,160
Speaker 16: of the classroom advits than I did inside the classroom.

1289
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:36,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean you know university.

1290
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 16: Yeah, Universities are those places where you knows, as an

1291
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 16: economic student, you can kind of hold court with someone

1292
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:45,799
Speaker 16: on gramsheet and kind.

1293
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 17: Of walk away with that with a curiosity that will

1294
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:52,000
Speaker 17: probably get you into a pigeonhole and you end up,

1295
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 17: you know, thinking about so many things flowing from that.

1296
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 16: And so for me, I I'm very grateful that I

1297
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 16: was fortunate enough to have that experience and that I

1298
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:04,280
Speaker 16: was able to stay on even after.

1299
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 7: My undergraduate training. And what a lot of.

1300
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:11,599
Speaker 16: People don't know, Steven, is that my postgraduate training was

1301
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:14,400
Speaker 16: actually funded through a program that the DTI at the

1302
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 16: time had initiated with the School of Oriental and African

1303
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:24,679
Speaker 16: Studies at SOAS at the University of London, which brought

1304
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 16: in a lot of these interesting academics Ben find the

1305
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:33,040
Speaker 16: late Bill Freud and a few others who had come

1306
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 16: from the more sort of progressive parts of the economic

1307
01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:41,840
Speaker 16: thinking of the liberation movement, which I think had been

1308
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:46,360
Speaker 16: really something quite quite interesting for me because I'd gone

1309
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 16: through the undergraduate training from a very particular advantage point

1310
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 16: at VITZ, which which I found quite fascinating, and I

1311
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:56,120
Speaker 16: ended up staying on for the honors and the master's

1312
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 16: program and then and then went to work thereafter.

1313
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:02,519
Speaker 2: Were speaking to Ayabunda Clowa. He is the Commissioner at

1314
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:05,599
Speaker 2: the International Trade Administration Commission he's your shape shifter. Tonight

1315
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 2: it's ten minute State.

1316
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,400
Speaker 12: The Money Show with Stephen Kuetz is brought to you

1317
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 12: by abs as cib a Pan African bank invested in

1318
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 12: your story and the potential it can unlock because your

1319
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 12: story matters as as the reistered fsp.

1320
01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 14: The Money Show Shape Shifters.

1321
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 2: Aya Buaner clarwere the chief commissioner at the International Trade

1322
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:32,719
Speaker 2: Administration Commission. Is your shape shifter this evening, Aya Bunger.

1323
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 2: You you worked, you were doing many things, but one

1324
01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:38,800
Speaker 2: of the things you were doing was talking about economics

1325
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:42,720
Speaker 2: in publics the column a Business Day and that's the

1326
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:45,200
Speaker 2: sort of audience i'd expect to understand economics. But you're

1327
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 2: also working for a competitor of this radio station on

1328
01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 2: Metro of M for a long time. How did you

1329
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:55,680
Speaker 2: find discussing economics on that platform? Because economics, I think

1330
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 2: sometimes has this sort of curtain around it where people

1331
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:01,640
Speaker 2: are scared of it. And I mean often when you

1332
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:03,880
Speaker 2: can be talking about something and they don't realize they're

1333
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:06,679
Speaker 2: talking about economics, but you are. How did you find

1334
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:10,760
Speaker 2: that experience? Well, you'll see what I think.

1335
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 16: The first thing that became clear to me when we

1336
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 16: were at university was that you had to demystify economic ideas.

1337
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 16: I think economics was too important to only be left

1338
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 16: to experts or people who who understood it and had

1339
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:28,240
Speaker 16: studied it to the extent that it affected all of

1340
01:13:28,240 --> 01:13:28,919
Speaker 16: our lives.

1341
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:33,880
Speaker 7: You had to do away with what many.

1342
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 16: People call the tyranny of the experts as it relates

1343
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:41,320
Speaker 16: to economic ideas. If you were interested in a meaningful

1344
01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 16: democratization process in South Africa, you couldn't have as important

1345
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 16: a domain as economic policy, for instance, being the sole

1346
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:56,439
Speaker 16: preserve of people who kind of had been skilled in it,

1347
01:13:56,479 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 16: trained in it, and often spoken jargon that was alienating

1348
01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:04,840
Speaker 16: for most of us. And I saw the role of

1349
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:09,880
Speaker 16: the media work as crucial both you know, as you

1350
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 16: say the column in the Business Day, which I've been

1351
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:15,639
Speaker 16: writing now this year for a decade, and then also

1352
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,280
Speaker 16: these five years I spent at Metro, and what I

1353
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:22,440
Speaker 16: found interesting at Metro had been that we had to change,

1354
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:26,559
Speaker 16: for instance, as it relates to business news, this idea

1355
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 16: that business news.

1356
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:30,799
Speaker 7: Is synonymous with financial news, so that.

1357
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:35,280
Speaker 16: A sense announcement on any day would reflect the sum

1358
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:37,560
Speaker 16: total of the economic change in the society.

1359
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:38,879
Speaker 7: We had to make.

1360
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:42,640
Speaker 16: Economics accessible as much to the taxi driver as it

1361
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 16: is to the kind of suited up asset manager out

1362
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 16: in Santon, and do so in a way where we

1363
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 16: kept some rigor and conceptual fidelity to all of the

1364
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 16: organizing concepts and principles of how it is that we

1365
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:02,760
Speaker 16: understand the economy. But you also, if you wanted to

1366
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 16: do that, Stephen had to be very intentional about the

1367
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 16: economics of place and time. You had to be intentional

1368
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:13,680
Speaker 16: about starting from people's own experiences. And I often make

1369
01:15:13,720 --> 01:15:17,080
Speaker 16: this example that you know, it's one thing to know

1370
01:15:18,160 --> 01:15:23,320
Speaker 16: the financial results of AVII, it's something entirely different to

1371
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 16: make your entry point about understanding the books of AVII

1372
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:32,839
Speaker 16: by going to Five Roses, to Caverla, to Baker's Biscuits

1373
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:36,760
Speaker 16: and beginning to weave the story from there in order

1374
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:39,719
Speaker 16: want to make it more relatable, but also to begin

1375
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:44,479
Speaker 16: to weave the business content on any media platform in

1376
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 16: a way that's kind of mutually understood with other segments

1377
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 16: and content across a media platform, especially if you're in

1378
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:57,679
Speaker 16: the public broadcaster. And I found that initially very difficult

1379
01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:01,040
Speaker 16: to do, but over time you began to see because

1380
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 16: radio is a medium that gives you continuous feedback. You

1381
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:09,439
Speaker 16: began to hear from people who were saying, I hear

1382
01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:14,040
Speaker 16: what you're saying from this vantage point, I problematize or

1383
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:19,479
Speaker 16: I engage what you're saying from this specific perspective, and

1384
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:23,160
Speaker 16: based on that, I think that this is what might

1385
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:25,679
Speaker 16: inform the corporate strategy of this company, or I think

1386
01:16:25,680 --> 01:16:29,120
Speaker 16: from the economic policy advantage point that this reform agenda

1387
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:33,559
Speaker 16: has these complications or these problems, And I thought that

1388
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 16: that was an important part of our own democratic duty.

1389
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:41,080
Speaker 16: I mean, take, for example, Stephen, one of the things

1390
01:16:41,080 --> 01:16:46,960
Speaker 16: we don't observe. Almost all of the African language platforms

1391
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:51,320
Speaker 16: on the public broadcaster in a twenty four hour media

1392
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:56,599
Speaker 16: cycle will only have at most two hours for current

1393
01:16:56,640 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 16: affairs and a space for deliberation and discussion the people

1394
01:17:00,479 --> 01:17:05,040
Speaker 16: who listen to the platform over that period, and the

1395
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:08,280
Speaker 16: more you immediately begin to understand kind of one from

1396
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:11,480
Speaker 16: where this comes from. But also what is so problematic

1397
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:14,080
Speaker 16: about it, because what it does is that it begins

1398
01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:17,720
Speaker 16: to influence the broader awareness and consciousness and understanding that

1399
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:20,680
Speaker 16: people have, and that translates to so many things. I mean,

1400
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:26,240
Speaker 16: you were talking to earlier about January debt. You know,

1401
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 16: and to the extent that we have financial discussions on radio,

1402
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:32,640
Speaker 16: that influences people's own decisions in their lives. To the

1403
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:35,320
Speaker 16: extent that we have current affairs discussions, it influences how

1404
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 16: people vote in their ballots, It influences.

1405
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:39,599
Speaker 7: How people organize themselves in their.

1406
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:42,960
Speaker 16: You know, sectional title properties, what they do in those

1407
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:46,840
Speaker 16: community WhatsApp groups. And so I think all of us

1408
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:50,560
Speaker 16: have to see the work of the fourth Estate as

1409
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:54,040
Speaker 16: so crucial to building this democracy and every nerve and

1410
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:54,720
Speaker 16: sinew of it.

1411
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:57,240
Speaker 2: Hyabunga, I I don't want to interrupt. You've got thirty

1412
01:17:57,240 --> 01:18:02,160
Speaker 2: seconds left. Trade and iTech, why particularly trade the economics

1413
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,200
Speaker 2: is broad trade I find fascinating, but it makes my

1414
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:07,840
Speaker 2: head explode. Is the complexity of it's attractive?

1415
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:12,160
Speaker 7: Well, look, that's my training in the first instance, Stephen.

1416
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:14,680
Speaker 7: But I also think that I've always.

1417
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:21,120
Speaker 16: Been drawn to trade precisely because of, you know, the

1418
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 16: inseparable link between trade and the enterprise of colonialism and exploitation,

1419
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:31,280
Speaker 16: especially for us who come from the Third World. And

1420
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:33,320
Speaker 16: if you look at what has happened in the last

1421
01:18:33,479 --> 01:18:38,479
Speaker 16: twenty four months in the trade discussion globally, I don't

1422
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:42,000
Speaker 16: blame people who begin to bandy about the word imperialism,

1423
01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:46,840
Speaker 16: because effectively, what has happened, the very genteel nature of

1424
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 16: trade discussions and diplomacy at that level has now been

1425
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 16: replaced by the stark and what Clement Atlee, one of

1426
01:18:54,360 --> 01:18:57,040
Speaker 16: the label politicians in the post war period called naked

1427
01:18:57,120 --> 01:19:00,680
Speaker 16: self interest of many nations across the world world. And

1428
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:03,760
Speaker 16: I think I'm fortunate as a young South African to

1429
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:06,080
Speaker 16: have the opportunity to be part of some of those

1430
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:09,080
Speaker 16: discussions and to to try and at least make my

1431
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:12,760
Speaker 16: own small and very humble contribution to ensuring that South

1432
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:15,760
Speaker 16: Africa one is able to respond your thoughtful way, I

1433
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 16: have an evidence based way and in a way that

1434
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:21,680
Speaker 16: at least yeah, gets us going some abanger.

1435
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 2: Thank you, I've really enjoyed the time together. I'm sorry

1436
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:26,320
Speaker 2: we have to cut a short. A Banner Clawe is

1437
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:29,160
Speaker 2: the Commission at the International Trade Administration Commission.

1438
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:33,000
Speaker 12: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

1439
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:36,559
Speaker 12: by abs A cib a Pan African bank invested in

1440
01:19:36,600 --> 01:19:40,040
Speaker 12: your story and the potential it can unlock because your

1441
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:41,400
Speaker 12: story matters.

1442
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:43,440
Speaker 9: APPS as a raised the fsp.

1443
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:46,960
Speaker 2: US markets down tonight, the dar Jones down point six percent,

1444
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:49,000
Speaker 2: the Nastik down nearly one and a half, the S

1445
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:51,920
Speaker 2: and P five hundred down nearly a full percent. That's

1446
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:53,040
Speaker 2: the money show. It's a