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Speaker 1: News twenty four has had sight of and has now

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Speaker 1: reported on the Independent Police Investigating Director's investigation into aspects

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Speaker 1: of the aftermath of the parlor parlor robbery money stolen

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Speaker 1: from under a couch on one of sil Rama Pausa's farms.

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Speaker 1: The report was completed in well. The theft was in

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Speaker 1: February twenty twenty. The report was completed in October twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three. It was classified. It has apparently been declassified.

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Speaker 1: News twenty four file the Promotion of Access to Information

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Speaker 1: Act with IPID and was given the report on which

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Speaker 1: Kyle Cowen, investigative journalist at the News Channel, is now reporting.

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Speaker 2: Huller, Kyle good Atin John and thank you for.

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Speaker 1: Having me, always a pleasure. In summary, if one can

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Speaker 1: do a sort of succinct summary, what does the IBID

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Speaker 1: report say.

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Speaker 2: Effectively? The head of President or the security, Major General

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Speaker 2: Wally Ruder, conducted an off the books investigation into the

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Speaker 2: theft of you know, at least five hundred and eighty

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars in cash from the President's farm. And he

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Speaker 2: did this in contravention of SAP regulations very crucially, and

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Speaker 2: did it in such a manner as to conceal the burglary,

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Speaker 2: and that is the most critical finding by IPUT is

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Speaker 2: that they found there was a deliberate effort, in fact,

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Speaker 2: to keep this investigation and the theft itself from the

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Speaker 2: public domain.

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Speaker 1: The response from the president, he's been doing a walk

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Speaker 1: about today and journalists asking him about this, and he said, well, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to comment because there is a process

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Speaker 1: in the process was played itself out to the end,

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Speaker 1: which is his answer to just about everything but the

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Speaker 1: presidency Leavin's and Magwenya said, well, there was a Public

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Speaker 1: Protectors report which cleared Wally Ruder, so you would have

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Speaker 1: had deep engagement with both reports. Do they contradict each other.

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Speaker 2: No, not really, but I think that it's important to

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Speaker 2: mention that, you know, ipid's investigation is very hyper focused

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Speaker 2: on police regulation and sort of the conduct of police

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Speaker 2: officers within that framework, and the Public Protector found that

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Speaker 2: the investigation by Ruder and his team was improper and

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Speaker 2: recommended disciplinary charges against him. The South African Police Service

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Speaker 2: did act on those recommendations and did institute disciplinary inquiry

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Speaker 2: against Major General Ruder, but he was cleared in that inquiry.

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Speaker 2: He was cleared of wrongdoing. So the you know, the

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Speaker 2: cruxy is is that the you know, the IPID recommendations

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Speaker 2: never served before that disciplinary inquiry. So now the question

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Speaker 2: really becomes from October twenty twenty three when this report

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Speaker 2: was finalized and handed over and to the various role players,

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Speaker 2: why they wasn't it included in the disciplinary charges? And

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Speaker 2: you know, do you plan to to look at this

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Speaker 2: issue afresh in lights of these findings? But unfortunately, you know,

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Speaker 2: from my point of view where I'm sitting, I think

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Speaker 2: that officials in the presidency and officials within the South

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Speaker 2: African Police Service or happy to say that this chapter

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Speaker 2: is closed and they've all moved on.

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Speaker 1: And your view is very much that it shouldn't be closed.

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Speaker 1: It should remain wide open.

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Speaker 2: Correct. Yes, I think that there are still many questions

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Speaker 2: that need answering around the Pala Pala saga, and this

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Speaker 2: report is just the latest iteration, you know, latest version,

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Speaker 2: latest document that sort of contradicts the official version in

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Speaker 2: subtle and you know, in very important ways.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I hold on to the silly

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Speaker 1: belief that sil Roman Pausa is innocent in this matter.

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Speaker 1: I remonstrate with myself for that naivete. But I really

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Speaker 1: don't want him to have been involved. And I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I'm intered nothing that I'm entire

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I'm persuaded in any shape, manner

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Speaker 1: or form. That the money was only five hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighty thousand dollars and that it was only about the

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Speaker 1: purchase of Buffalo's. I think there are deeper matters there.

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Speaker 1: But you report that the IPID port says that Wali

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Speaker 1: Ruder was instructed by Silo Rama Pausa to go to

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Speaker 1: Namibia because there was there were indications that some of

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Speaker 1: the alleged thieves were of Namibian citizenship, and I read

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Speaker 1: that Nagger. I just want Wali Ruder to have invoked

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Speaker 1: sil Ramaposa's name, because if you name the emperor, then

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Speaker 1: action follows. But again, what's your sense with your much

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Speaker 1: deeper knowledge of this affair?

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Speaker 2: So that can be explained by the official explanation for

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Speaker 2: that trip. So the President asked Wally Ruder to go

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Speaker 2: to Namibia with doctor Bijani Chaki, who at the time

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Speaker 2: was his special advisor and his envoy, and the official

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Speaker 2: reason that was provided to the public protector was that

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Speaker 2: the you know, Chaki needed to go meet with the

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Speaker 2: then President of Namibia, harts Angob and to explain to

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Speaker 2: him and speak to him about a mash matter of

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Speaker 2: quote unquote national security. And this matter was apparently so

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Speaker 2: sensitive that it could not be discussed over a telephone

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Speaker 2: at the height of COVID restrictions. And Ruder's job here

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Speaker 2: was to escort childcare because of these restrictions, etc. And

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Speaker 2: they then traveled to Uppington, slept in a guesthouse, drove

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Speaker 2: to the knock or border post, and after leaving South

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Speaker 2: Africa by foot, they were collected by a Namibian state

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Speaker 2: owned helicopter and flown took a flight of some five

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Speaker 2: and a half or six hours. The discussion has had

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Speaker 2: the following morning, and my understanding is that Ruder was

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Speaker 2: not part of that discussion, so he is not aware

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Speaker 2: of what was discussed and then flown back. But what

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Speaker 2: this matter of national security is, which allegedly involves a

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Speaker 2: third African country, we do not know. And I was

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Speaker 2: asked and I was told that no, the security issue

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Speaker 2: may still be active and alive, so they cannot explain

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Speaker 2: any detail around.

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Speaker 1: Our national security is a figure glee for many things

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Speaker 1: in many countries around the world over the passage of history.

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Speaker 1: So in one way of say, okay, maybe there was

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Speaker 1: this instruction. And then Whili Ruder thought, while I'm in

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Speaker 1: Namibia unofficial and secret business, let me because I'm not

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Speaker 1: part of the talks, I was simply a security accompaniment.

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Speaker 1: Let me do some further investigation into the parlor parlor matter.

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Speaker 1: That's one option. Another option is there was never a

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Speaker 1: security issue involving and it was all about parla pala, correct.

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Speaker 2: And I think if you look at the timeline here

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Speaker 2: that explanation becomes all the more likely because just nine

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Speaker 2: days prior to this trip, EMMANUELA. David, who is the

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Speaker 2: chief suspect for the burglary in February of twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: was arrested by Namibian police for illegally entering in that country.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the flags had sort of already been

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Speaker 2: put up because he was found in possession of South

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Speaker 2: African ID documents and they were already at that point

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Speaker 2: request that had come back to South African police for

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Speaker 2: information on him. And at that point already the Namibian

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Speaker 2: police were aware of stories about a break in at

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Speaker 2: a farm, and I distinctly remember chasing my tale on

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Speaker 2: the story because you know, long before ars the Fraser

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Speaker 2: went to the police and opened this case. I was

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Speaker 2: told that there have been a break in at the

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Speaker 2: president's farm in tabern Yawni, which is an Impuma Lango

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Speaker 2: quite some distance away from the Palapala farm. And I

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Speaker 2: here naturally hit dead ends because the breaking happened at

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Speaker 2: a different farm. So I didn't really cover myself and

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Speaker 2: glory on that one. But you know now that we

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Speaker 2: are after many years, when we see more facts emerging,

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Speaker 2: it is very clear than the Namibian police knew that

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Speaker 2: there was an issue involving President cerram A Pauser. They

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Speaker 2: had already filed request for information with the South African

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Speaker 2: authorities and then this trip happens within a matter of days.

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Speaker 2: That timeline is what makes the IBID reports so critically important.

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Speaker 1: Are we ever going to get to a point where

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Speaker 1: most reasonable people will look at the information available and say, right,

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Speaker 1: I think we know everything we need to know?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I think that you know

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Speaker 2: this question, particularly around the supposed national security issue. I

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Speaker 2: think that is one aspect that needs to be addressed.

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Speaker 2: And also, you know, the president himself knew that the

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Speaker 2: money was at his farm for forty four days before

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Speaker 2: the burglary. And you know, his official version is that

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Speaker 2: he fully expected his farm manager to take the money

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Speaker 2: to the bank and banquets. And I think that that

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Speaker 2: explanation just does not hold water for me. And you know,

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Speaker 2: as you mentioned, the five hundred and eighty thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: US twenty four is extensively reported over the years on

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Speaker 2: the spending habits of these burglars in the weeks and

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Speaker 2: months after the burglary, and they spent a lot more

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Speaker 2: than just ten million rounds worth of dollars. They actually

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Speaker 2: spent upwards of you know, fifteen to twenty and that

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Speaker 2: in and of itself has always been, you know, a

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Speaker 2: major red flag.

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Speaker 1: To Kyle Cowen, thank you very much, as always, investigative

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Speaker 1: journalist with News twenty four