1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:00,920 Speaker 1: Seven o two. 2 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 2: Well, so on our World of Work feature today we 3 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 2: are talking about navigating voluntary work. 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 3: Have you ever volunteered? 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 2: And I know a lot of us when we are 6 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 2: in metric we all think, oh, we're gonna go to 7 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 2: university and then boom, we're gonna be rich. You know, 8 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: you're gonna buy your fast car within the first year 9 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: you're working, you move into your apartment, or you're getting 10 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: a house. But actually there's a lot more to getting 11 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: to the top of your career than just just going 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 2: to university and just getting a job and progressing right up. 13 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 2: Sometimes voluntary work is what you actually need. So today 14 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: we want to talk about the importance of that because 15 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: voluntary work is often seen ash I'm getting my time 16 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 2: for free, But actually many people will tell you it 17 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: pays in ways money can't. You're building skills, are you're 18 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 2: building connections, your opening doors in your career. So volunteering 19 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 2: can be quite a powerful stepping stone, but only if 20 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: you know how to navigate it. So how do you 21 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: even get started? What should you expect? Does volunteering even 22 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,039 Speaker 2: really help your career? Should you treat it with the 23 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: same professionalism as a paid job or differently So today 24 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 2: we're joined by Grant Wilkinson, who's a human resources expert, 25 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 2: to help us unpack just the realities, the rewards and 26 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: the outspoken rules unspoken rules that is of voluntary work. 27 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: And I want to know from you as well, because 28 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 2: I know that a few of you that have decided 29 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: to volunteer at some point in your career, maybe it's 30 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: something you're doing now and that has paid off. How 31 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: did it pay off for you? How important was it 32 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: for you to build those skills to build those connections? 33 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 2: I know this is very important for other people who 34 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 2: really want to build connections, as I said, And there 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: are people who started off volunteering much later on. Someone 36 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: they met there actually connected them with another opportunity somewhere 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: later in life. So how have you been impacted by volunteering? 38 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 2: How significant has it been for you? Oh one one 39 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: eight eight three seven O two? What's up? Line on? 40 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: Oh seven two seven oh two one seven oh two? Grant, 41 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us for this Chairman, good. 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: Morning, good morning, Thanks very much for having me. 43 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so from an Asia perspective, well, what exactly counts 44 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 2: as voluntary work? And how can people identify just those 45 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 2: legitimate opportunities that are worth their time. Do you volunteer 46 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 2: in like sort of the same industry, the same sort 47 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: of career you're trying to advance towards, or it could 48 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 2: be anywhere else. 49 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 1: Thank you for the question. Yeah. 50 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 4: Look, from my perspective, I'm an I'm an employment attorney. 51 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: That's do you know me? 52 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 4: And from my perspective as an attorney when studying for me, 53 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 4: the volunteering as an example was asking a law firm 54 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 4: in Port Elizabeth at the time Malchabka, to say, look, 55 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:10,679 Speaker 4: I want to learn. 56 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: I want to know which direction to go in. 57 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 4: Do you have some space in your firm for me 58 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 4: to shadow somebody as an example? And the shadowing experience 59 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 4: was quite a good one for me as an example 60 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 4: and no doubt something that I could put two professionals 61 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 4: out there that if there are organizations open to open 62 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 4: that door in the current environment, it's always a good 63 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 4: idea when you are, for instance, at university, to shadow 64 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 4: volunteer because if you look at the full definition that's 65 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 4: performed without the expectation of remuneration, you're there to learn, 66 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 4: right and either you're going to do it as a 67 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 4: youngster trying to enter the marketplace where you're volunteering in 68 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 4: a sort of professional space. 69 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,279 Speaker 1: I know historically law firms were open. 70 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 4: To that, and no doubt from my perspective, i'd be 71 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 4: open to that as well if someone to shadow whilst 72 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 4: maintaining obviously plants confidentiality. At the same token, there certain 73 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 4: spaces unfortunately the volunteer wouldn't be allowed in for obvious reasons, 74 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 4: but where necessary then you can then accommodate the person 75 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 4: in other spaces to make sure there's a career growth 76 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:18,920 Speaker 4: as well. 77 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: But usually as part of that, usually. 78 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 4: Voluntary work is done for social impact, community benefit, or 79 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 4: obviously skills development. I think in most times nowadays, people 80 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 4: aren't too keen to do voluntary work, and I think 81 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 4: it's something to consider, especially if you're young. I'll look 82 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 4: at my son and my son's entered high schools and 83 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 4: it's something I'd say teams that at some time you 84 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 4: might have to go learn and volunteer and just shadow. 85 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 4: You know, at some stage you might want to perform 86 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 4: sort of short term work, vacation work and that type 87 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 4: of thing where it is a pay of sorts, you know, 88 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 4: but there's no harm. I'm old school, so there's no 89 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 4: harm in learning. 90 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, mm hmmmm hmmm. 91 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: And for for someone who's looking to enter that voluntary 92 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: work for for the for the first time, what are 93 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 2: some of the key questions they should be asking before 94 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: committing to to an organization? And know, in the past, 95 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 2: there was this obsession with wanting to get paid, like, okay, 96 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: but I do I mean, it's volunteer work. But they'll say, okay, 97 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 2: but I some people don't see just how important it's 98 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,239 Speaker 2: going to be down the line in terms of the bill, 99 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: the skills you're building, in terms of just the network 100 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: that you're building as well. 101 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 3: What are some of the some of the questions. 102 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: To ask yourself before you commit them to volunteering in 103 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: an organization? 104 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: Yell. For me, it was. 105 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 4: It's a question of which organization are you going to? 106 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 4: Do you know the organization? Have you researcher? Do you 107 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,799 Speaker 4: know the people in the organization? So when when added 108 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 4: voluntary work, and granted we're talking decades ago a little 109 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 4: of an old man now, but that voluntary work was 110 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 4: aimed at purely I need to see what the real 111 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 4: world is like out there doing which aim aside of 112 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 4: the law, do I want to go into and with 113 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 4: that it was purely in my vacation, free of charge. 114 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: But I knew the organization I was going into. 115 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 4: I knew the principle of the organization, not personally, but 116 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 4: of him and his reputation for ethics and the rest 117 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 4: of his colleagues as well, that they weren't just going 118 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 4: to use it as a form of slave labor. It 119 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 4: was really there to try and learn and teach as 120 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 4: part of their sort of broader approach to legal fraternity. 121 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: And it's a powerful tool to. 122 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 4: Help you to develop that sort of soft skills that 123 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 4: no textbook can teach you to give it, especially for 124 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 4: younger jobs, see, because the technical abilities that you would 125 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:57,119 Speaker 4: never find elsewhere. I had someone work with me again 126 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 4: at vacation jobs. She wanted to sort of get act 127 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 4: access to the i R space as an industrial relations 128 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 4: space as an example, and really she's ended up learning, 129 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 4: ended up going yeah, I want to go into this 130 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 4: space or not to that space. And she currently is 131 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 4: a group or a manager years later, obviously at an organization. 132 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: But again it's a question. 133 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 4: Of someone willing to learn where to bring the hard yards, 134 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 4: et ceter And from our side of things, we didn't 135 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 4: let her just stay for free. We thought that, you know, 136 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 4: that would have been a little unfair, paid a minor wage, 137 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 4: but you know, to be covering way past minimum wage. 138 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: But ethically we just found to let you work for free. 139 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,559 Speaker 4: Whilst probably the one I worked or wasn't a big 140 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 4: problem because I was there to learn. I wanted to 141 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 4: learn only with her she wanted to learn. 142 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: But we just faulted. 143 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 4: Right, she's think such a sterling job. Let's give us 144 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 4: some element of at least for a time as well. 145 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 4: And again it's a pathway into industries where people can 146 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 4: obviously at the source learn and experience things. And experience 147 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 4: is hard to come by, what you call it job 148 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 4: profiles out there or in candidates out there. My frustrations 149 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 4: in the nineties and early thousands, what my frustrations was, 150 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 4: you're looking for someone new, fresh in the marketplace, but 151 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 4: you want three ys experience, But how are you going 152 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 4: to get that experience? 153 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: You know? 154 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 4: And that's where the thing I've look I did backwork 155 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 4: at this particular or firm did help me going forward. 156 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 4: And I think it's nice that it gives you a 157 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 4: good reference as well, especially do a good job. And again, 158 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 4: if you look at communities up part of that new 159 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 4: infant in to the marketplace. It's a nice social aspect 160 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 4: addressing community needs and that's where you know pro bono 161 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 4: workplaces a role in the legal progeneration as an example. 162 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 2: I see, But are there specific skills doing your experience 163 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: that that volunteer tends to build that employers value the 164 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 2: most in the workplace. 165 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 4: Look from the employer's side, I think you know what 166 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 4: one's looking for is the young talent coming through sharing, 167 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 4: commitment to work, sharing drive, self drive, because I think 168 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 4: that's a skill that's often lacking in workplaces, is that 169 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 4: self drive, the ability not to require a motivator, the 170 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 4: ability because it is important to have that. 171 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: You know, from a leaders perspective, the. 172 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 4: Leader should be there to optimize someone's performance and get 173 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 4: the best out of what they can bring to the. 174 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: Table, you know. 175 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 4: But by the same opening, you want people to be 176 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 4: self driven and confident in what they can do, but 177 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 4: really being able to also roll up their sleeves and 178 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 4: do the hot graft. I think that's what people are 179 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 4: looking for, you know, It's to find that balancing act. 180 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 4: And in that thought, can it open up potentially that 181 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 4: at some stage the person you're volunteering for goes. 182 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: No, that's a good kid. 183 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 4: And then they phone up a colleague and sell Listen, 184 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 4: I've got a kid that volunteered for me. 185 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: But you know what, he's got talent. I can spot 186 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: it in him. 187 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 4: We don't have a space for him in our business, 188 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 4: but you might want to sit him or her going forward. 189 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, that that opens up the door. And that's that's 190 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: really I think you're. 191 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 4: Doing a software service if you're sitting with hands in 192 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 4: your pockets going, well, I'm not going to volunteer, but 193 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 4: I'm not going to get the experience. 194 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: But I'm also doing to volunteer. Yeah, doing a solfater service. 195 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And I want us now to look at 196 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 2: it from a labor law perspective. But before we do, 197 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: let's go to somewhat of voice notes that have come 198 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 2: through and seven to seven O two one seven or two. 199 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 5: Hi Clement and the listeners, Kristians. I volunteered de Clement 200 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 5: and it worked. In twenty eleven. Out of university. I'm home, unemployed, 201 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 5: no internship for experience, so I decided to approach the 202 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 5: nearest hospital and requested to volunteer. I did public relations 203 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 5: and communications, so then peer of that facility mentored me, and. 204 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 3: A few months later he left. 205 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 5: I applied for the post court employer. That's how I 206 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 5: got into the public service through volunteering. I was not 207 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 5: getting paid when I was volunteering. Usually you would get 208 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 5: an internship paid internship if you need to get the experience, 209 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 5: but in my case, I didn't do that. I just 210 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 5: volunteered a networked Thanks. 211 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 6: Heart, Clement Commoso here from Patriist. I once volunteered as 212 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 6: a young lady. I volunteered as a legal secretary and 213 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 6: it was quite interested interesting law. I learned quite a 214 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 6: lot of things. My challenge was at the time. 215 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:56,599 Speaker 3: I wasn't. 216 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 6: Really sure of what I was doing. Of course, they 217 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 6: did pay me, but at the time I felt like 218 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 6: the money was too little. I had forgotten that I 219 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 6: was volunteering. But volunteering gives you so much experience that 220 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 6: you're going to use later in life. 221 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 3: Thanks Clement M. 222 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for for your WhatsApps grant. From 223 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: a labor law perspective, how is voluntary work legally defined 224 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 2: and at what point might such an arrangement risk being 225 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: reclassified as employment under applicable labor legislation. We've had stories 226 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: of people who just started as volunteers and the next thing, 227 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 2: they've been absorbed within the labor environment. They're actually doing 228 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: basic tasks of employees, but they're still within that banner 229 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:54,359 Speaker 2: of volunteer. 230 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you rut roscal. 231 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 4: Of abuse and ask purs This is why my throat 232 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 4: writer in the beginning was you know, in my time 233 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 4: back in the day, because I do think and whenever 234 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 4: you know, listeners that wat Ceptain mentioned internships usually quite right, 235 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 4: that type of opportunity often find its way into internships 236 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 4: because I think organizations, you know, feel it's a better 237 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 4: opportunity to show a full compliance et cetera. And let's 238 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 4: be honest, there are employers out there who are compliant 239 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 4: and you know, really abide by the. 240 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: Law, et cetera. 241 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 4: And then you get some people who take chances. It's 242 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 4: on both sides, employers and employees. 243 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: So you're risk. 244 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 4: From a fairness perspective, is that the volunteers, as you mentioned, 245 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 4: will be used to replace the paid employees. 246 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: There's unfair expectations. 247 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 4: Then on those unpaid individuals, you're sorta taking the load 248 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 4: off your paid guys to pay less and you can 249 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 4: let the unpaid guys do it, there could be emotional 250 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 4: export tay. There's safety concerns obviously on a massive issue 251 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 4: as well. And that's why I think, you know, is 252 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 4: that if you are going to enter into this volunteer 253 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 4: pak space and starts talking about that's to have a 254 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 4: grievance in place for covering this, to make certain that 255 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 4: any obligations placed in the volunteer don't resemble employment, and 256 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 4: make sure their boundaries around time and responsibility and supervision. 257 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 4: I do think the volunteer space is something that whilst 258 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 4: one can learn from, it does open up the door 259 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 4: possible exploitation. And I think that's why employers, even compliant employers, 260 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 4: you know a little bit hesitating into that space because 261 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 4: their own people needed to open the door for risk. 262 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: A lot of organizations will be a risk. 263 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 4: Averse in the current economic climate and ends when it 264 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 4: comes to gaining experience. The experience often goes through internships 265 00:14:55,720 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 4: programs like the Yes Initiative. That's that's where often the 266 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,119 Speaker 4: opportunities come into play, where there's some level of reveneration 267 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 4: at least. 268 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: Oh, I see, and what are the legal indicators you know, 269 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: should should individuals look for? You know, to distinguish between 270 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 2: legitimate voluntary opportunities from arrangements that may contravene those labor 271 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 2: laws or that just to abuse. What to advise to 272 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: our listeners to be cautious before they get into these arrangements. 273 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the the the the indicators of abuse. 274 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: Or the fact that. 275 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 4: When it comes to voluntary work, it's often a shattering 276 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 4: perspective if they're taking the pro bonary initiative out the equation. 277 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 4: The voluntary work is a situation where I want it's 278 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 4: about shattering et cetera. You know, working with somebody, et cetera. 279 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: Learning. So where you have those workplace indicators, you have 280 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: to look. 281 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 4: At that evidence and on the face of it, the 282 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 4: warning signs to look out for. 283 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: Of for instance, where. 284 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 4: You have a situation where there's the changes in the 285 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 4: behavior of the individual, where it's erratic, merge, aggression towards 286 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 4: the volunteers, et cetera. There's issues around workplace conduct, your 287 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 4: physical indicators where people start looking at you know, physical abuse, harassment, 288 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 4: et cetera. You'll know and I suspect, you know, people 289 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 4: in the voluntary roles will know where there's going to 290 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 4: be abuse and if there's abuse. The top channels comes in. 291 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 4: If you're abusing voluntary labor or voluntary people coming into 292 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 4: volunteer to gain experience, your performance are going to drop 293 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 4: because they are trying to learn right, You're going to 294 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 4: make mistakes. It's going to lead to a number of 295 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 4: issues in the workplace, including absenteers. 296 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: And dropping productivity, et cetera. 297 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: There's another what's up that's coming also into seven oh 298 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 2: two on seven or two. 299 00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 7: Good morning, and your guest, and my name is that 300 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 7: I told my the Palala. In twenty fifteen, I started 301 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 7: volunteery work at or community radio in the Palala and 302 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 7: from then until twenty twenty three, I've been doing a 303 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 7: lot of volunteery work at community radio stations. I've been 304 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 7: at two in the Palala and other areas, and I've 305 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 7: managed to network throughout the period, knowing you know, decision 306 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 7: makers around the district to some degree even the province. 307 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 7: And in twenty twenty four I joined a mining giant 308 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 7: based here in the Palalai. And before we knew it, 309 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 7: through the work I've done previously, it was easy for 310 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 7: the mind to recognize me. And now whenever they have 311 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 7: events at the mind here I'm moderating those events, and 312 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 7: I'm doing other wonderful things that I've are quiet and 313 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 7: built during that period of volunteery work. 314 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: Seven or two World of Work. 315 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for just sharing your experiences about 316 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: how you've been impacted by volunteering. 317 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 3: Grant. I'm interested in, like, just like, how do labor laws. 318 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 2: Then address issues of liability and protection for volunteers, particularly 319 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 2: in cases of workplace injury, discrimination or harassment. 320 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 3: How is that covered in law? 321 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 4: And this is one of the challenges you're going to 322 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 4: face with people are comfortable too volunteers, because I just 323 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 4: want to touch on what that listener said, you know, 324 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 4: gain great experience, created a network and created his. 325 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 1: Network and his reputation in the in the industry. 326 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 4: The trouble comes in if you have volunteers who don't qualify. 327 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: The employees if they get injured on duty. You know, 328 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: quote most you know will probably not. 329 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 4: Really apply to them because quot it applies to contractors 330 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 4: obviously employees, et cetera. But the contractors are covered by 331 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 4: their employers workers compensation. So if you're looking at label 332 00:18:54,880 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 4: or complications, is that voluntary employees are generally not employes. 333 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 4: Key then don't fall under the definition. You know, obviously 334 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 4: the employment relationship is surrendering services in exchange for payment 335 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 4: because there's no expectation of a mineration, so that takes 336 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 4: out that element, and there's no contractual obligation in terms 337 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 4: of benefits either. Also, it doesn't fall the relationship doesn't 338 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 4: fall under the employee relationship. You know, So if you 339 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 4: do exercise control for instance, or you provide stipends, then 340 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 4: you could have a deemed employee situation. 341 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: But other than that, you know, label or doesn't cover this. 342 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 4: And this is what I said to you is you know, 343 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 4: be careful to entse relationships with get into a relationship 344 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 4: with the wrong employer, that could open up to exploitation. Now, again, 345 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 4: if you look at quoita, the key if you're there's 346 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 4: a quata covers the place of responsibility for compensation on 347 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,239 Speaker 4: employers and covers occupational injuries and diseases for employee is 348 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 4: injured in the course of employment. So because a volunteer 349 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 4: isn't automatically covered by others, they could have a situation 350 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 4: where they don't fall in definition and as a result 351 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 4: there they won't be covered. And obviously, if you get injured, 352 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 4: they have problem. But that opens up litigation on both 353 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 4: sides of the table. So yeah, it does pose challenges 354 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 4: either way. 355 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 2: So someone is asking on the once upline, clemen, can 356 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 2: a host company include its volunteers as part of the 357 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: skills development claim when it comes to triple BEE verification. 358 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 4: Sure, it's a good question. Look in terms of be 359 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 4: that's not necessary my space, So what we have a 360 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 4: team of guys that cover BEE. But I know within 361 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 4: the realm of your Yes for youth, those topic initiatives, 362 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 4: they do contribute to be scuore God as an example. 363 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 1: So it'll have to be a lot more. Your internships, 364 00:20:58,720 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: et cetera. 365 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 4: Would have to be a lot more formalized for you 366 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 4: to claim the death. 367 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: So contract properly. 368 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 2: I see, I see. And then where's that other question? Oh, 369 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 2: let's get that call back. There was someone else who 370 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: was calling in to ask quite an important question. So 371 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 2: to what extent then, should volunteers be expected to adhere 372 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 2: to workplace policies because other people may think, oh ma, 373 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: a volunteer here the company culture, the policy is done. Really, 374 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 2: I'm not bound completely by them right standards of conduct. 375 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 3: So how does this intersection then work out as. 376 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: A as a as an employers, as a volunteer. And 377 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 2: before you respond to that, let me just take Seja 378 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: who is in Pretoria. Sega, what do you want to say? 379 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: Good morning? 380 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: I want your lemon social men go ahead. 381 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 8: Around two thousand and two, I was waking as a 382 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 8: clean up for a service provider to BMW plant in 383 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 8: Worldsely and as we were awaking, I volunteered to become 384 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 8: a print media reporterday. And then as I was reporting voluntarily, 385 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 8: I suggested that we need to have one on one 386 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 8: interview with the personal of BMW, and I was given 387 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 8: an opportunity to interview the MD for BMW at the time, 388 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 8: and having interviewed him here the human resource management staff 389 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 8: should make a plan that I become a BMW employee 390 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 8: up until today, I'm okay with that. So thanks to 391 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 8: my voluntary services. 392 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 3: No, that's great in platoria, thank you. 393 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 2: Yes, grant that question about just company policy standards of conduct. 394 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, again the volunteers down and the definition of employee. 395 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 4: He so we just need to be clear that when 396 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 4: you bring volunteers in and to go back to your 397 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 4: headcount question, that the bee Sorry I'm backtracking, but the bee. 398 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 4: Like I said, you want able to added your head 399 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 4: count for numbers wise, but obviously, as I mentioned, those 400 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 4: initiatives for be such. 401 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: As thes et cetera. Under other elements of your B score, 402 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: God can count. 403 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 4: But in terms of your workplace policies, et cetera, I 404 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 4: think it's imperative, particularly if you look at harassment code. 405 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 4: Not only that but obviously harassment code that anybody entering 406 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 4: your site needs to be inducted if you will and 407 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 4: go through that induction prior to entering the workplace, and 408 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 4: they make certain that they're bond. But in terms of 409 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 4: those policies, but you have to then induct go through 410 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 4: what the policies are, par't applicable to them, et cetera. 411 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 4: So in essence, it's a lot an employment relationship, but 412 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 4: those policies and procedures were still applied. 413 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: So for instance, I'm at a client site at the moment. 414 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 4: Online in the boardroom, and when I am to the 415 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 4: site that took me through at my last visit the 416 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 4: induction video as an example, it took me through some 417 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 4: key rules. 418 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: And responsibilities the organization. 419 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 4: And if I, for instance, as a contractor, now had 420 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 4: to harass. 421 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: One of the employees on site. 422 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 4: Even though I'm a contractor, I'm not an employee of 423 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 4: this organization. I can be all responsible and my submission 424 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 4: would be that in terms of the Harassment Code, as 425 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 4: an example, that person could be fine and breached the 426 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 4: policy and dealt with accordingly. You know, they volunteers, so 427 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 4: it's a little bit easier to handle than a contractor 428 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 4: relationship contractor, there's commercial breach volunteers. 429 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: You know what, it's been good. 430 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 4: You know, we're not going to continue to the volunteering arrangement. 431 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 4: But obviously the more formal artor becomes the for instance, internships, 432 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 4: then you'd have to look at how you cancel it 433 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 4: internship agreement if they are on breach of those policies. 434 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: For the policies it would apply to that particular vol. 435 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,959 Speaker 2: Right Wilkinson, Labor law expert. Thank you so much for 436 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 2: making time for us. It's eleven thirty two.