1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,040
Speaker 1: Seventy or two the big interviews. To move on now

2
00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:09,600
Speaker 1: to an entirely different issue. A house divided can never stand,

3
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,440
Speaker 1: my Bible says, So how is it that one of

4
00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:17,000
Speaker 1: the largest churches in South Africa is tearing itself apart

5
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:22,120
Speaker 1: over a succession battle. The previous leader died in twenty sixteen.

6
00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,480
Speaker 1: Here we are ten years later in the three major

7
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:33,120
Speaker 1: factions vying for control and leadership of the International Pentecostal

8
00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 1: Holiness Church. And it is one of South Africa's largest congregations,

9
00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,839
Speaker 1: and there's four hundred million rand estate also involved. Professor

10
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,400
Speaker 1: Mussakulu is a voice you've heard in the radio before

11
00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,920
Speaker 1: on this show. Certainly he's a theologian and a religious

12
00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,559
Speaker 1: expert and joins us now as well as I appreciate

13
00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,320
Speaker 1: your time and thank you for joining us.

14
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,200
Speaker 2: Good Moning Milani, good morning to your listeners, and thank

15
00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 2: you very much for inviting me.

16
00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,880
Speaker 1: This is just an extraor ordinary story because of course

17
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,320
Speaker 1: it has now gone as far as the courts in

18
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,440
Speaker 1: terms of trying to pick a successor for one of

19
00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:13,720
Speaker 1: the largest churches in South Africa. Do you have an estimate,

20
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,039
Speaker 1: for example, of the members and the real size of

21
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,600
Speaker 1: the International Pintecostal Holiness Church.

22
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,800
Speaker 2: Yes, they are estimated at around three million. The church

23
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,000
Speaker 2: hasn't been found in Soweto, Middlelands in nineteen sixty two,

24
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,080
Speaker 2: I must say, from around nineteen ten there was a

25
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 2: wave of what is called African formation, of what is

26
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:44,040
Speaker 2: called African Independent Churches or African Initiated Churches aiics, which

27
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:49,440
Speaker 2: tend to mix bits of Christianity with cultures and traditions

28
00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 2: of Africa. And of course succession is always a big

29
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,520
Speaker 2: issue because biblically a successor should be picked up by

30
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,480
Speaker 2: the church elders. But then you find that once you

31
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:09,760
Speaker 2: mix that with African traditions, the succession is not based

32
00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:15,000
Speaker 2: on whether a person is trained as a minister. It

33
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,840
Speaker 2: just depends on how and when you were born. And

34
00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:23,040
Speaker 2: maybe if some people like you, then they appointed. And

35
00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:24,600
Speaker 2: I think there's a problem there.

36
00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,640
Speaker 1: It also sometimes becomes dynastic, doesn't.

37
00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,640
Speaker 2: It very much? So very much so if you look,

38
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,800
Speaker 2: for example at let me pick up the trees, let's

39
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:41,560
Speaker 2: just see there's another Baptist as well as the i PHC.

40
00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,000
Speaker 2: What what has happened there is more or less the

41
00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:50,440
Speaker 2: same once the founder dies. In this case, it was

42
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 2: not the successor to the founder, but the successful to

43
00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,800
Speaker 2: that in line of the dynasty. That's where the problem

44
00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,320
Speaker 2: has been. And if you look at the Chamber Church,

45
00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,680
Speaker 2: for example, in cases then as a result of no

46
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,280
Speaker 2: succession planned I have been divide it into I think

47
00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:13,639
Speaker 2: six factions now everyone claiming that they are the original

48
00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,600
Speaker 2: they should be the ones that are the virtually successful.

49
00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 1: What makes this story particularly complicated is that now the

50
00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,400
Speaker 1: matter has not only gone to the courts to try

51
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,639
Speaker 1: and get some resolution as to who the right successor

52
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,679
Speaker 1: might be, but some of those vying for that top

53
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:35,120
Speaker 1: position are themselves now criminally accused, including trying to bribe

54
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,040
Speaker 1: a magistrate or a judge to rule in their favor.

55
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 2: Well, that's a very bizarre story, very bizarre because you see,

56
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 2: I think, as I spoke about culture encroaching into these

57
00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:56,160
Speaker 2: kinds of churches, the disput from the family side and

58
00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,760
Speaker 2: somes is that maybe the one that is at court

59
00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:06,560
Speaker 2: now now, Michael Sandan was born out of wedlock, a

60
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:12,080
Speaker 2: familiar story, and therefore summer disputing whether he should be

61
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,080
Speaker 2: the one that becomes a successor. It's also likely he's

62
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,080
Speaker 2: the elder of the others and therefore his claiming to

63
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,120
Speaker 2: be the one that should be. It became, yes, bizarre

64
00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,800
Speaker 2: when it was taken to court and the judge was

65
00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:33,360
Speaker 2: allegedly bribed and she's now sitting at home to make

66
00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 2: a certain kind of finding. Now, the estate of four

67
00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:45,640
Speaker 2: hundred millions, well estimated, including our source of assets, is

68
00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,960
Speaker 2: very much other side of the dispute. And we saw

69
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,760
Speaker 2: that the court made the ruling or dismissed some application

70
00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:05,320
Speaker 2: that Santana may actually be not excluded from a you know,

71
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,880
Speaker 2: inheritance of that which may change in the nation of things.

72
00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, how should the state deal with these issues? Because

73
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,200
Speaker 1: almost every facet of this discussion has been about as

74
00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,679
Speaker 1: unholy as you might get. The four hundred million rand

75
00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 1: that's up for grabs, the succession battle where brothers are

76
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:32,000
Speaker 1: fighting each other for control of a church, and the monies,

77
00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,880
Speaker 1: and the allegations of bribery. I mean, it sounds about

78
00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,560
Speaker 1: as secular as I can imagine. How should the state

79
00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,839
Speaker 1: deal with these kinds of things a hands off approach

80
00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,840
Speaker 1: or should there be tighter and stricter controls.

81
00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 2: Well, there's currently a very hot kind of debate between

82
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,039
Speaker 2: let me say this CRL and then the Christian churches

83
00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,520
Speaker 2: on exactly the issue of controlled by the state. The

84
00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,680
Speaker 2: history of the church from two thousand years ago is

85
00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,880
Speaker 2: that it has been self regulating and the state has

86
00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:13,480
Speaker 2: been maintaining a relationship of Amaslan. But you're correct when

87
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,599
Speaker 2: you say that this matter is actually not a holy matter.

88
00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,279
Speaker 2: It's a secular matter and therefore should be dealt with

89
00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:27,560
Speaker 2: according to how the laws of succession are dealt with,

90
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,599
Speaker 2: whether you are an Donna or you are a Chazen,

91
00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,440
Speaker 2: ordinary South African, black, white Indian and so on. And

92
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,480
Speaker 2: I think the church people will prefer that it's dealt

93
00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,119
Speaker 2: with in a very secular manner. That's why they rush

94
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,760
Speaker 2: through the courts. I'm hoping that the courts will be

95
00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:51,039
Speaker 2: able to mediate being your trust. But for most cases,

96
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,960
Speaker 2: I think this debate of how far can the state

97
00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:01,120
Speaker 2: government go in controlling church affairs a very hot potato

98
00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,080
Speaker 2: at the moment. And and there's code cases already even

99
00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:05,680
Speaker 2: around that.

100
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,840
Speaker 1: Because it's it's sometimes difficult to know what to render

101
00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,880
Speaker 1: and to caesar. Professor Musatolo, through theologian and religious expert