1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Do you join the conversation you with Cape Talk. Podcasting 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: has become one of the most accessible platforms for expression. 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: I love a podcast mildly. I go through phases of 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: being mildly obsessed with certain podcasts. I've been on SmartLess 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: or been on as a guest. I mean, I've been 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: into SmartLess, which is will our Net, Sean Hayes, and 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: Jason Bateman, the three American actors kind of just talking 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: nonsense with other various Hollywood elite and poking fun of themselves. 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: I've enjoyed that. I like the True Trime podcasts. People 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: are the worst Nicole Engelbrex's True Crime South Africa podcast. 11 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: Love that. I've never turned myself on to Mac Gee. 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: Have to be honest. I know he's a controversial figure 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: and it is his work that could be affected if 14 00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: government goes ahead with essentially what It's some relation around 15 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: podcasts and the civil rights organization. Free Essay says that 16 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: such a move could open the door to censorship and 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: political interference. Gideon Jabert, as a spokesperson for Free Essay, 18 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: joins us on the line. Now, good to have you 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: with us, Good Morning to you, Good Morning series. 20 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 2: Joining to the listeners and thank you for taking the 21 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: time out of your busy day to chatting me about them. 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: No good stuff. What exactly is government proposing then when 23 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: it comes to podcast regulation, so at. 24 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 2: The stage that they haven't actually put any proposals on 25 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 2: the table, but they are exploring the possibility of regulating 26 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: the podcast space now. Essentially, one of the big issues 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 2: with us is what constitutes a podcast, especially it is 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: a number of private individuals that are having either a 29 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: discussion or a debate or talking about ideas or concepts. 30 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: And it's a very broad variety. I don't think you 31 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: can you can pigeonhole it into a single genre. You've 32 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: got entertainment podcasts, You've got political podcast you have cooking 33 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: and food costs and so on and so forth, and 34 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: a lot of these are intertwined with blogs and other 35 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: forms of online free expression. So the thing that we're 36 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: very concerned about here is that government actually intends to 37 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 2: treat podcasts or people that have podcasts as broadcasters, which 38 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: for many reasons, will obviously not work. 39 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: Talk to us about why that won't work. Why is 40 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: it free? Essay? So strongly opposed to this government to 41 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: government podcast regulation. 42 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 2: I can summarize it very shortly in the sense that 43 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 2: it's to attach a licensing requirement to having an opinion. 44 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 2: It's very much the same as if there are people 45 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: in any public space, whether it's the park or the restaurant, 46 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: and they're having a discussion about a topic that I'm 47 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: not enjoying that I don't like, do I now need 48 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: to complain to the government to regulate what they're allowed 49 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 2: to say. And it's the same with podcasts in the 50 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: sense they're murder of platform. Most of them are hosted overseas, 51 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 2: and it's become accessible to South Africans in the sense 52 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 2: of you can access a podcas that has its own 53 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: little channel in any space of the world and engage 54 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 2: with that content if you find it interesting or stimulating. 55 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: At the same time, there are many people that are 56 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 2: quite offended by controversial podcasts. I probably cause a great 57 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: number of people offense, and I know there are some 58 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 2: people out there that are discussing topics that I don't like. 59 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: But I've got the freedom of not tuning in or 60 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: switching off, or even engaging with the ideas I disagree 61 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 2: with on my own. So it's a free marketplace of 62 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: ideas it's to a degree self regulating in the sense 63 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: that the podcasters have to go and earn their audience. 64 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 2: They're not a traditional broadcasting mechanism necessarily with a lot 65 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: of money behind them. Some are and others have gotten 66 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 2: to that space from humble beginnings. And I always ask 67 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: the questions sort of what value is government bringing to 68 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: the table here through regulation, because I see a great 69 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 2: risk of a lot of value being destroyed instead of added. 70 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: I suppose the argument some might come up with is 71 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: that regulation has the possibility to ensure accountability. I guess 72 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: what would be your response to that. 73 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: Geld em Well, my response, sort of accountability for what. 74 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 2: So if there's somebody that's going out of their way 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 2: to say not merely offensive things, but sort of hateful things, yeah, 76 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: all those things, we already have a legal framework and 77 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: laws that specifically address those. And just because you're saying 78 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 2: these things on an online platform as opposed to being 79 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: in front of a crowd saying it in real life, 80 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that that's going to protect you. In fact, 81 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 2: it might even be worse because you have a recording 82 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: of all the offending statements in context, which will make 83 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: it rather difficult for you to deny you ever said it. 84 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: So I think to hold podcast as a countable again, 85 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: is there are mechanisms of doing that I don't think 86 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: required requiring them to be licensed by the state is 87 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: going to fix that problem. 88 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: In particularly, I often think when of the comedian who 89 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: I know is a bit of love or hate him, 90 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: but the comedian Ricky Gervais, who has said frequently it's 91 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: not that he's in the podcast space. Just because you're 92 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: offended doesn't mean you're right, and and and similarly, just 93 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: because I'm offended doesn't mean that I'm wrong either. But 94 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: it's it's it's the same side. It's both sides at 95 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: the same coin. Isn't it that I understand the the 96 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: the opposition, But I'm also aware that do the do 97 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:44,119 Speaker 1: the existing does the existing legal framework go far enough? 98 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,239 Speaker 2: Do you think I think it would be a great 99 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: time to taste that legal framework? Actually, although I have 100 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 2: to admit to you, I'd be a bit as of 101 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: a loss as two way to start, because I haven't 102 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: actually found any podcasts of that I think have broken 103 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: any auset. I'm sure there's one out there somewhere, but 104 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: to that extent, I like what Ricky said in the 105 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: sense that are we going to allow our feelings that 106 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: our people make or field dictate whether we should deprive 107 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 2: them of a constitutional right to express themselves. And I 108 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 2: think what would concern me about this, not just from 109 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 2: a more broader constitutional point, is let's just look at 110 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 2: some of the technical difficulties. If I upload a voice 111 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 2: note expressing an opinion to a chat group that has 112 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 2: several members, and that voice note gets shared to other 113 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,679 Speaker 2: chat groups, am I podcaster? Am I breaking the law 114 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: by not being licensed? For example? If my spoken words 115 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: or audio clips are potentially offensive, what about my written words? 116 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: If I have a blog post, or if I put 117 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 2: anything out in social media? Actually would that require a 118 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 2: type of escalatory licensing requirement and quality control mechanism from 119 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: this date as well? So there is a bit there 120 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: is a definite concern that this could lead to a 121 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 2: more broader clamp down on freedom of expression. And my 122 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: question to the public would be, do we want that 123 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: to be the case where the state police is free 124 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 2: speech and stay with living and where does it stop? 125 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: Or are we okay with living with the fact that 126 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: they are people and sometimes imbeciles that have incredibly offensive 127 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: and wrong opinions, but we're going to grant them the 128 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: right and the freedom to freely express those and live 129 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 2: with them. 130 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: We're talking this morning to Gideon Jabert of Free SA 131 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: talking about the exploration, I guess by Parliament of looking 132 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: into regularly measures targeting what is a rapidly growing sector. 133 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a bit of a joke, isn't it. 134 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: I saw something on New Year's Even it said, well, 135 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: a happy new year to everyone, accept of those people 136 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: who are thinking of starting a podcast this year, and 137 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: I get it, and then I kind of slunk back 138 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: into my you know, into my got my myriad of 139 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: podcast ideas, and thought, well, maybe not. What do you 140 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: think would be the impact or for those who create 141 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: or consume podcasts if this were to go ahead? Could you? 142 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: I think if we look at let's assume there's some 143 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: form of licensing framework and regularly framework that you as 144 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: a podcast have to comply with, there's always a cost 145 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: attached and a burden of compliance attached. And I think 146 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: the very real danger is that it would simply shut 147 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: down a lot of people freely expressing themselves online because 148 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: they either do not know how to or cannot or 149 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: they cannot comply with the administrative burden or they cannot 150 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: shoulder the cost of compliance, and it would essentially distill 151 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 2: the space down to only larger and more corporate voices 152 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: having a say and the average person that essentially all 153 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 2: you need to start a podcast is an inter connection 154 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 2: and the cell phone. And I think that's how a 155 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 2: lot of the small all the podcasts that have grown 156 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: into much larger ones started in the early days. It 157 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: was literally just that it was a person with an 158 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: opinion in a microphone that cultivated the following because enough 159 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: people actually liked what they had to say, or agreed 160 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: with it, or found value in it. And I do 161 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 2: think it would startle that space and potentially kill it, 162 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: where you end up with only those that have the 163 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 2: money or the ability to comply being afforded the right 164 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: to speak their mind. And that I think is something 165 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: we definitely, in a democracy with the constitution like ours, 166 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 2: needs to try and amvoid at all costs. 167 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: It's interesting, it's an interesting debates, an interesting conversation. Appreciate 168 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: your time, Gideon, thanks very much indeed for joining us 169 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,119 Speaker 1: this morning. Gideon Jobet is the spokesperson for Free SA. 170 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: Thoughts is it appropriate for government to intervene in the 171 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: podcast space. What would be the impact of that, would 172 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: it How do you feel about that from a from 173 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: a consumer point of view, if you knew that the 174 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: content that you're listening to was under scrutiny in that way. 175 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 1: And as that Gideon suggests, there is already a legal 176 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 1: framework to prevent things like hate speech. It's an interesting one.