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Speaker 1: Tenier judges will take up their seats on the Constitutional

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Speaker 1: Court from the first of May. Justice nam Betha Cristabel

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Speaker 1: Dambuza Mayorsi is one of them. Justice Katherine Mary Savage

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Speaker 1: is the other. Both appointments announced by President sil Rama Porsa.

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Speaker 1: So a little bit about who these judges are and

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Speaker 1: what contribution they might make to the country's highest court.

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Speaker 1: We welcome for that to seven h two drive Begause

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Speaker 1: Early Benjamin joining us from the organization. Judges Matt and

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Speaker 1: mister Benjamin, welcome and thanks very much for your time.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with Justice Dambuza, my yor Sie. What do

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Speaker 1: you think is the most important things we ought to

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Speaker 1: know about her?

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Speaker 2: Good afternoon, John, and good Afternon to their listeners. Justice

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Speaker 2: Dambusa actually is a really, really, I think a star

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Speaker 2: in our judiciary in the sense that she's been a

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Speaker 2: judge for the last twenty one years, and since twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 2: she's been a judge of the Supreme Court of Appeal,

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Speaker 2: which is our second highest court, and she brings to

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Speaker 2: the Constitutional Court a wealth of experience generally, but the

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Speaker 2: judicial appellate experience that she brings is really important because

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Speaker 2: one of the difficulties of the Constitutional Court is that

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Speaker 2: it is both a generalist court but also a specialist

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Speaker 2: and so it needs people who are able to handle

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Speaker 2: all kinds of work and can be able to hit

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Speaker 2: the ground running. And I think she's one of those candidates.

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Speaker 2: So she brings an academic mind. She is a visiting

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Speaker 2: professor at Rhodes University Law School. But also she is

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Speaker 2: quite at depth with the judiciary.

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Speaker 1: And let's move to Justice Catherine Savage then extensive experience

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Speaker 1: in labor courts, I understand, yes, So.

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Speaker 2: Justice Savage is actually one of the leading labor lawyers

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Speaker 2: in South Africa and in some ways. A couple of

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Speaker 2: weeks ago, in fact, she was elected as the President

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Speaker 2: of the United Nations Appeal Tribe, you know, which is

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Speaker 2: a world court that deals with all labor disputes within

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Speaker 2: the UN system. So she's the first judge in South

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Speaker 2: Africa to be president of that court. And she was

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Speaker 2: elected by one hundreds and ninety United Nations member countries,

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Speaker 2: and so she is she has a global profile and

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Speaker 2: labor no and of course she's been a judge in

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Speaker 2: the Western Cape High Court since twenty fifteen. And then

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Speaker 2: she she was then appointed to the Labor Appeal Court

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Speaker 2: since twenty twenty four, and so she brings quite a

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Speaker 2: depth of experience in the judiciary generally, but that specialist

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Speaker 2: experience as a labor as a labor expert, and which is,

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Speaker 2: like I said, both a combination of Justice Tambusa and

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Speaker 2: Justice Savage actually is exactly what the Constitutional Court needs

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 1: Some people would say what it really needs is more

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Speaker 1: hands on deck because of the delays, and we discussed

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Speaker 1: them with you a little while back in regard to

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Speaker 1: the Parlor Parlor judgment, but in general, there's there's a

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Speaker 1: bit of a piling up of matters and outcomes. But

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you this, from what you know

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Speaker 1: of the Constitutional Court, to do new judges pretty much

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Speaker 1: hit the ground running, they would they know the law clearly,

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Speaker 1: They're familiar with the issues at hand. Are they thrown

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Speaker 1: straight in al? Is there a period of finding your

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Speaker 1: feet a little?

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Speaker 2: So the advantage that the both judges have is that

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Speaker 2: they actually really hit the ground running. They have been

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Speaker 2: acting in the Constitutional Court over the last year and

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Speaker 2: specifically since the beginning of this year, so by the

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Speaker 2: first of May they would have been continuing to act

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Speaker 2: in the Court if they were not permanently appointed, but

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Speaker 2: now that they are permanently appointed, literally it will be

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Speaker 2: a duck to water. And one of the other advantages

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Speaker 2: of the appointment right now is that it's the first

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Speaker 2: time since twenty sixteen that we have a full complement

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Speaker 2: of permanent justices at the Constitutional Court. So we are

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Speaker 2: hoping that the court will now be firing at all

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Speaker 2: cylinders because we have a full complement of eleven.

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Speaker 1: Are we seeing with the round of appointments and we

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Speaker 1: can go all the way back to the appointment of

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Speaker 1: the current Chief Justice, are we seeing any cultural shifts?

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Speaker 1: And that may involve age, it may involve background, it

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Speaker 1: may involve gender. I mean, the court is fundamentally, while

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Speaker 1: it's made up of great legal minds, it's also fundamentally

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Speaker 1: made up of people. And I'm sure the people mix

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Speaker 1: does play a part your thoughts.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it does. The culture in the Constutional Court does

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Speaker 2: need people to actually be operating at that level, at

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Speaker 2: the highest levels. But one of the advantages that we

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Speaker 2: are seeing now is that a lot of the current

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Speaker 2: members of the Constitutional Court are former judges of the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court of Appeals, so they would have been getting

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Speaker 2: along from the FCA and then they made it to

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Speaker 2: the Constitutional Court. But at the same time, we do

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Speaker 2: need people with different perspectives and people who don't necessarily

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Speaker 2: come from the Supreme Court of Appeal, and that's where

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Speaker 2: Judge Savage comes in, and that she comes from a

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Speaker 2: different perspective, and we're hoping that that will enrich enrich

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Speaker 2: the culture in the constitutional courts that we do have

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Speaker 2: people operating at the highest levels who come from very

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Speaker 2: broad and different backgrounds. Because the other thing about both

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Speaker 2: Judge Dambuza and Judge Savage is that they were former

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Speaker 2: attorneys who became judges and they've both kept a strong

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Speaker 2: academic mind. One of the common things I found about

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Speaker 2: them is that they were both full Pride scholars, so

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Speaker 2: they got their master's degrees from the United States and

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Speaker 2: they still are involved in the academic world. So that

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Speaker 2: also adds value to the Constutional Court.

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Speaker 1: And just finally, I mean often there has been I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I can say acrimony, but certainly a

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Speaker 1: degree of controversy and contentiousness around a Constitutional Court appointment processes.

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Speaker 1: This seems to have been very, very smooth. Does that

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Speaker 1: suggest Karma Waters or should we keep those life jackets handy.

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Speaker 2: So we are quite concerned. Actually, John, it was smooth

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Speaker 2: up until it got to the Judicial Service Commission, which

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Speaker 2: made its recommendation, and then we had a stall in

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Speaker 2: the presidency for almost six months. Now the interviews. The

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Speaker 2: interviews happened almost six months ago and the appointment happened

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Speaker 2: six months later. It is the longest it has taken

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Speaker 2: in democratic history for appointments to the Conditional Court to

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Speaker 2: be made, and so we are really concerned about that.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, the President does owe South Africa and

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Speaker 2: explanation why he took so long and how he needs

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Speaker 2: to make sure that in future that this never happened again,

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Speaker 2: because in the next four years at least four more

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Speaker 2: judges will need to be replaced, and if he's taking

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Speaker 2: six months at each time, then the Constitutional Court will

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Speaker 2: unfortunately be weakened. So the President needs to explain to

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Speaker 2: us why he took so long.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much, beggars Early Benjamin joining us from judges

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Speaker 1: Matters twenty six minutes past five