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Speaker 1: So too weekend Breakfast the Future of It's.

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Speaker 2: Twelve minutes after nine o'clock. Very good morning to you.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Future of For this week and as

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Speaker 2: always in the second week of the month, we talk AI.

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Speaker 2: Some very fascinating developments coming out of China involving a

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Speaker 2: Chinese business that then moves their headquarters to Singapore. They

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Speaker 2: get into a deal with Meta, who of course are

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Speaker 2: an American company. But now they are concerns they've now

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Speaker 2: been barred from leaving China. They're concerns that there is

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Speaker 2: the potential that they flouted Chinese rules with this particular sale.

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Speaker 2: And also it's now raising questions of so what does

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Speaker 2: tech sovereignty look like in the age of AI. You

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Speaker 2: may remember a couple of months ago we had a

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Speaker 2: discussion about some countries in the EU looking to move

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Speaker 2: away from American products and adopting European products, and the

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Speaker 2: reason for that was this idea of tech sovereignty, so

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Speaker 2: that Africa, European Union countries and governments don't find themselves

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Speaker 2: relying on a Google or a Zoom or an Outlook

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Speaker 2: and instead using their own. So tech sovereignty is going

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Speaker 2: to be a big topic and so I'm really excited

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Speaker 2: about today's conversation. Weich joined us always in studio by

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Speaker 2: chief data and analytics officer at F and B RISK.

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Speaker 2: He's an expert in the space, his award winning for

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Speaker 2: his insiets.

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Speaker 1: He's the author of two books.

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Speaker 2: Dottor Mark Nasilla joins us in studio this morning, dot Nacilla,

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Speaker 2: Always a great pleasure having you in studio.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, good morning gooks, A great pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: And again to the listeners who are joining us.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so we are talking this interesting development in China.

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Speaker 2: So for the Financial Times reports, China has restricted two

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Speaker 2: co founders of Manus I hope I'm saying that correctly

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Speaker 2: from leaving the country because regulators are reviewing whether a

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Speaker 2: two billion dollar acquisition deal by Meta of the AI

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Speaker 2: agent company violent ned Beijing's investment rules.

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Speaker 1: This is this is the stuff of movies. Tell us

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Speaker 1: about the story. This is an extension or a classic

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Speaker 1: example of how AI is a driver of the current

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Speaker 1: geopolitical status. Right, and just a bit of more background.

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Speaker 1: These two founders, Chao and Jim Uh, the founders of

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Speaker 1: a leading AI startup, the one you just mentioned, manus

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Speaker 1: or Manners that has agentic capabilities. It's it's it's capable

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Speaker 1: of solving some of the complex problems. It's it's got

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Speaker 1: chatboard capabilities. It reads and writes files. It actually develops

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Speaker 1: applications by itself based on on on on users instructions,

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Speaker 1: analyzes data. It can even act as a personal assistant.

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Speaker 1: And it's famous for the famous application of developing an

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Speaker 1: agent that can perform recruitment by itself, shortlisted candidates for

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Speaker 1: a role and submit maybe the final three or five.

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Speaker 1: This startup was founded in twenty twenty two in Beijing

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Speaker 1: and the founder strategically moved it to Singapore, and in December,

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Speaker 1: Meta announced that they're acquiring this startup, and obviously China

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Speaker 1: started investigating the department. The Ministry of Commerce in China

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Speaker 1: started looking into this transaction and has classified it as

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Speaker 1: a validation of it of foreign direct investment rules in China.

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Speaker 1: But the real reason points towards AI dominance, and for

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Speaker 1: a long time China, the AI race between China and

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Speaker 1: America has been intensifying. China sees America's doorman centered around

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Speaker 1: America attracting Chinese talent in Silicon Valley, while at the

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Speaker 1: same time it looks at all solutions developing China's as

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Speaker 1: a national strategic asset for AI, and it doesn't want

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Speaker 1: Chinese solutions to just be acquired by American companies like Meta,

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Speaker 1: because that compromises its strategic view and dominance of air

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Speaker 1: in the future. And this is basically why China is

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Speaker 1: investigating this transaction.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting and this Financial Times peace, they say. Further

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Speaker 2: scrutiny of the transaction highlights growing concern about what Chinese

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Speaker 2: leaders have described as selling young crops to foreign buyers

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Speaker 2: and strategic areas such as AI. And obviously there's no

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Speaker 2: concern that Manus or manus bypassed domestic regulation. And I

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Speaker 2: think there's such an interesting tension here. On one hand,

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Speaker 2: one of the things that's really driven Chinese innovation and

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Speaker 2: then kind of being the leader in this new arms race,

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Speaker 2: this AI race, has been a lot of the technology

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Speaker 2: has been open source, so it allows people experts to

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Speaker 2: kind of make it better, right, But also at the

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Speaker 2: same time, while internally domestically that is the spirit that

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Speaker 2: it is open source, but outside of China that's not

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Speaker 2: the position exactly.

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Speaker 1: And you see China's been very instrumental empowering homegrown solutions

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Speaker 1: because it once driving to civilization. Remember when we had

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Speaker 1: the discussion about it, you know, finding Deepsi Manus is

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Speaker 1: another example, and there's lots of other startups which China

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Speaker 1: looks at it at them as part of their national

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Speaker 1: AI strategic focus that will power China's dominant in AI.

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Speaker 1: And it's not going to allow that easily. It's not

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Speaker 1: the first time. Also, China's bad people from living China,

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Speaker 1: but it's the first time it's doing it on a

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Speaker 1: basis of AI solutions. Or China bade Chinese American who

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Speaker 1: worked for the Commerce Department in the US before it

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Speaker 1: also bad a Wells, a Wells Vago employee in Atlanta

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Speaker 1: because of potential conflict with interfering with China's national security factors.

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Speaker 1: And this shows maybe why AI is not just another technology.

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Speaker 1: It's a lesson for African leaders to not just treat

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Speaker 1: these technologies a source of efficiency, but as a technology

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Speaker 1: that is redefining the future of nations and technology that

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Speaker 1: is going to drive industrialization, and it must be treated

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Speaker 1: as a national asset. Just like China America are making

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Speaker 1: sure that they protect what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so when you speak about this tech sovereignty.

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Speaker 2: I was reading a piece by the World Economic Forum

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Speaker 2: speaking about this, and it said, so it's quite a tricky.

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Speaker 2: It's this delicate thing. On one hand, there's lots of

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Speaker 2: parts to it. There's lots of you know, things that

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Speaker 2: could be part of that tech sovereignty. So they said

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Speaker 2: things like data so the control of a data storage,

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Speaker 2: access and governance, autonomy and managing and executing digital operations,

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Speaker 2: the development and control of hardware and infrastructure. Even legal sovereignty,

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Speaker 2: so the power to establish and enforce regulations around these

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Speaker 2: digital assets. Right, And so it's quite a when you

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Speaker 2: speak tech sovereignty, we're speaking on quite.

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Speaker 1: A big area.

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Speaker 2: And they were saying, there isn't a place where countries

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Speaker 2: can go fully autonomous. So we don't use anyone else's technology,

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Speaker 2: they don't use ours. And they were saying, instead, what

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Speaker 2: we might see is this balancing acts, they say, the

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Speaker 2: balancing of strategic self reliance with intelligent partnerships.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Googs is spot on. When we talk about tech

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Speaker 1: sovereignty or even AI sovereignty, we're talking about controlling the

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Speaker 1: building blocks and the whole value chain and all the blocks.

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Speaker 1: He just mentions whether it's data or legal aspects or talent,

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Speaker 1: or having a clear strategy that outlines what you want

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Speaker 1: to be, or ethical guidelines, trade export controls which actually

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Speaker 1: is centered around what we're talking today. All of them

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Speaker 1: must be part of a national strategy because those are

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Speaker 1: critical And in this case, maybe four or five big

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Speaker 1: lessons that I think we must articulate here. One AI

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Speaker 1: is not just another technology. It's a national strategic asset

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Speaker 1: that is going to impact everything, and we must make

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Speaker 1: sure in our strategies it's not just about how we're

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Speaker 1: going to use it, but how we're going to protect it. Then,

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Speaker 1: but we must also scrutinize our offshore relationships around technology

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Speaker 1: the same way our national resources are strategic assets or

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Speaker 1: resources that we've built regulations around experts. We must also

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Speaker 1: look at regulations around software relations with other countries. Then

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Speaker 1: we need controls on how organizations from outside engage with

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Speaker 1: startups and those who are building solutions in South Africa

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Speaker 1: and in the African continent. The fourth one is how

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Speaker 1: do we balance innovation with regulation. How do we create

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Speaker 1: an environment where, for example, if we have a startup

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Speaker 1: like Manners in South Africa, they've come up with a

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Speaker 1: good solution and we have a Facebook or a matter

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Speaker 1: who want to invest three billion US dollars. We must

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Speaker 1: it mustn't be very impossible, but it must be done

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Speaker 1: in such a way that the IP and technology still

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Speaker 1: reside in South Africa, but also metal benefits. You know,

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Speaker 1: one thing that is very disturbing around this is that

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Speaker 1: all the over one hundred employees of Manners in Singapore

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Speaker 1: are also going to move to META and those are

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Speaker 1: some of the implications we don't want, especially when you've

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Speaker 1: got when you've got a very good solution that could

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Speaker 1: power the region. And then we also just need a

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Speaker 1: unified regional AI regulations or even startups that can work

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Speaker 1: together in having frameworks that drive collaboration. You see, the

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Speaker 1: thing is Facebook approaching MANUS was a very single handed transaction.

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Speaker 1: But if there were a lot of startups unified together,

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Speaker 1: they would have this transaction would have been done in

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Speaker 1: a totally different way. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and so here we see I guess one country's

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Speaker 2: response to this idea of because you were saying, when

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Speaker 2: we speak about AI, we're talking about kind of a

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Speaker 2: national asset. We're not just speaking about a technology. But

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Speaker 2: and especially I guess if you're at the forefront, like

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Speaker 2: China is it is kind of the edge that your

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Speaker 2: country has over other countries. And so we're now seeing

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Speaker 2: this kind of concern about so if we allow this

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Speaker 2: thing that's giving us the age to leave, what happens

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Speaker 2: to our competitiveness?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: But also at the same time, can China keep all

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Speaker 2: because they're also they've got this big boom right in

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Speaker 2: terms of like models and tech, and are they going

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Speaker 2: to be able to keep a handle or keep all

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Speaker 2: of them from being sold to other countries or other

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Speaker 2: companies and sort of I guess kind of texts this

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Speaker 2: age that they have. I mean, I mean, the CCP

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Speaker 2: is wide and its riches quite deep. But even then

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Speaker 2: could they are they able to keep all that tech

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Speaker 2: inside the country.

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Speaker 1: So I do think China knows very well. If they

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Speaker 1: are to you know, loosen controls, they will allow America

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Speaker 1: and the billion technology companies like Meta, Google to just

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Speaker 1: acquire these solutions. Also, one of the reasons behind Facebook's

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Speaker 1: acquisition of Meta's acquisition of Manners is because they feel

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Speaker 1: they're being left behind for around certain generative AI capabilities.

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Speaker 1: But also the implications are beyond the technology. As we said,

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Speaker 1: look at the hundred people also of a work force

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Speaker 1: living talent America to go to America that those have

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Speaker 1: got implement, you know, implications on a nation. We've complained

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Speaker 1: in Africa about losing talent and you have a company

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Speaker 1: that comes and takes away all your smart people just

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Speaker 1: like that. That amount of brain drain is not good

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Speaker 1: for the future of a country. China as a country

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Speaker 1: has been leading in manufacturing because of similar types of

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Speaker 1: controls being driven by Ministry of Commerce, and it will

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Speaker 1: continue doing that. And I think when we talk about

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Speaker 1: AI driving geopolitics, we're going to see these types of

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Speaker 1: conflicts and resolutions, you know, cropping up a lot to

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Speaker 1: make sure that organizations like China not allowing their IP

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Speaker 1: to leave their country. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The World Economic Forum also says, of course tech sovereignties

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Speaker 2: now become this political debate. It's kind of the flashpoint

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Speaker 2: of a lot of geopolitical things. And they say, but

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Speaker 2: now we find ourselves in this interesting position. Right on

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Speaker 2: one hand, you want to regulate. One of the criticisms

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Speaker 2: certainly of states is they're not moving quickly enough to

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Speaker 2: regulate technology that's moving really quickly. But also at the

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Speaker 2: same time they say regulation must enable not stifle innovation.

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Speaker 2: Over regulation, particularly in emergent text like AI, risks slowing

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Speaker 2: down adoption and undermining leadership potential. So again this very

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Speaker 2: delicate tension. On one hand, you don't want to have

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Speaker 2: no guardrails, no regulation for how these technologies are developed,

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Speaker 2: how they are tested, how they are used, how they

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Speaker 2: leave the country. But you also don't want too much

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Speaker 2: so much so that then no one wants to innovate exactly.

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Speaker 1: And that's why we're going to see probably an exploration

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Speaker 1: of what we call their partnership based sovereignty. So this

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Speaker 1: is a model that allows you know, core creation or

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Speaker 1: core innovation leveraging technology across the world. Instead of Meta

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Speaker 1: fully acquiring manners, maybe you should have like a joint

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Speaker 1: venture between you know, Meta and man as well. Manus

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Speaker 1: is still based in China, because China wants to have

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Speaker 1: long term benefits of its discovery of the solution. And

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Speaker 1: these are critical the policies because we don't want to

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Speaker 1: have regulations, like you said, you know, prohibit innovations or

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Speaker 1: put off people from coming up with good ideas. So

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Speaker 1: these types of approach would help, but you would rather

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Speaker 1: not have an innovation that empowers your competitor. I'm telling

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Speaker 1: you China will rather not have these types of innovations

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Speaker 1: because they know very well they will if you don't

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Speaker 1: have proper controls, they will end up on the other side. Right.

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Speaker 2: And so when we speak about tech sovereignty, someone I think, okay,

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Speaker 2: that is about control, but it sounds as the controls

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Speaker 2: only kind of a small part about takes service is

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Speaker 2: actually about.

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Speaker 1: It's about protection. And there's nothing wrong about control and protection.

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Speaker 1: Just like the royal families, and just like you know,

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Speaker 1: countries that have done well, they've done well under the

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Speaker 1: ampuit of control and and and I've spoken in a

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Speaker 1: lot of conferences where people say, no, but you're going

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Speaker 1: to hold us back from globalization. Globalization is one thing,

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Speaker 1: but it's driven by countries that have developed these assets

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Speaker 1: through control.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes selfishness can come out as a factor when you're

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Speaker 1: putting together these frameworks, but control is good. You even

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Speaker 1: get more respected when your national asset like gold, is

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Speaker 1: actually being cannot just be accessed by anyone. And that's

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Speaker 1: what we must think of when we're entering deals around digitization,

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Speaker 1: entering deals around cloud and putting our data into these systems,

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Speaker 1: because data to is that national resource and the processing

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Speaker 1: of it is the national asset we're talking about. We

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Speaker 1: mustn't just treat it anyhow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so for a country like ours, So of

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Speaker 2: course we're not in the race right now. The race

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Speaker 2: is mainly between the US and China. It looks for

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Speaker 2: the most part that China is ahead. But is there

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Speaker 2: something we could learn Because sometimes there is a benefit

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Speaker 2: to being kind of a late adopter. You get to

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Speaker 2: watch the leaders get some things right, get them wrong,

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Speaker 2: ask some questions, and so what could we be learning

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Speaker 2: from the situation playing out in China right now for

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Speaker 2: how we think about our tech sovereignty when it comes

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Speaker 2: to kind of these AI and data assets.

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Speaker 1: There's quite a number of lessons. One is that one

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Speaker 1: AI is impact is obvious. And while we're not competing

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Speaker 1: with the likes of China and America, we're competing against

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Speaker 1: our own opportunities on what we can do, what a

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Speaker 1: I can do for us. It's important that we realize

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Speaker 1: that if we don't exercise sovereignty, even us winning our

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Speaker 1: own rates against ourselves will be very difficult. We need

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Speaker 1: to come up with regulations or frameworks that encourage innovation

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Speaker 1: under the Umpit of protecting or sovereignty, encouraging relationships or

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Speaker 1: national relations with other startups other countries to ensure that,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a balance between control protection as well

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Speaker 1: as driving innovations, but most important incentivizing, you know, building

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Speaker 1: these solutions so that we can build an Africa and

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Speaker 1: the nation we want in the future. Yeah. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: these are very critical leadership decisions around this technology.

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Speaker 2: Right And when you say incentivized, what does that look like?

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Speaker 2: Is it about kind of getting rid of tape you

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Speaker 2: hear about with regards to small business? What would kind

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Speaker 2: of incentivizing this kind of technology and innovation look like.

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Speaker 1: So we've seen China putting a lot of money in

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Speaker 1: local solutions like deeps and created an environment for innovation.

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Speaker 1: We've seen them power you know today Chines has got

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Speaker 1: the highest number of AI factories because it's created environment

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Speaker 1: where it's easy for data scientists AI research as to

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Speaker 1: experiment and come up with solutions to national problems that

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Speaker 1: can also be used or be used across the world.

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Speaker 1: We've also seen them drive initiatives around the nation understanding

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Speaker 1: the implication of getting it wrong. Singapore is doing the

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Speaker 1: same thing, driving literacy. We've seen the Canada also building

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Speaker 1: strategies around making sure that empower and humanize how AI

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Speaker 1: is adopted. And the key is that you empower the technology,

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Speaker 1: but also you build its implication around what it can

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Speaker 1: do for society so that you know it's built under

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Speaker 1: the loyalty of national interests. And this is very critical

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Speaker 1: as part of strategizing with this technology for the future.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Doctor Nascilla, always a great pleasure chatting to you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so so much for your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I hope we can have some

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Speaker 1: controls around some of the solutions we're developing in Africa

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Speaker 1: so that they can power our industries and we don't

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Speaker 1: lose them. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That is Chief Data and Analytics afside, Eff and b

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Speaker 2: Risk at doctor Mark Nacilla joining us for our future

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Speaker 2: of this morning. Coming up, we wrap up the show

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Speaker 2: in the literature corner. We talk about a new kitties

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Speaker 2: for called Tandese paper Bracelets. It's certained by Hotels Faith Home.

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Speaker 2: They are a storyteller, a children's book or children's book

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Speaker 2: author and communications creative. They'll join us in the studio,

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Speaker 2: but before that, it's very busy sporting weekend already, so

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Speaker 2: let's check in with you latest eye witness New Sport

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Speaker 2: with Underneath Shade