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Speaker 1: Another kind of very modern. Is it an advancement? I

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Speaker 1: don't know the idea of paying for things that don't

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Speaker 1: actually exist in reality, And I have to confess. When

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Speaker 1: I first heard about the story that we're covering on

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Speaker 1: the Couch today, I thought, this is an early April

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Speaker 1: Fool's joke. I'm aware of the fact that tomorrow is

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Speaker 1: April Fool's Day. I read the story this morning and

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Speaker 1: I thought, whoops, some over zealous copy editor has jumped

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Speaker 1: the gun and published the April fool story sooner than

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Speaker 1: they were meant to, because who on earth would envisage

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Speaker 1: paying more than sixty thousand rand on auction for an

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Speaker 1: invisible coin. Well, it turns out it wasn't an over

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Speaker 1: enthusiastic editor. An invisible coin did indeed just fetch such

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Speaker 1: a sum in an online auction. And it's a pleasure

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Speaker 1: to welcome back to the show Basani Auction House, who

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Speaker 1: facilitated the sale of this intriguing piece and a number

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Speaker 1: of other actual physical historic coins two days ago. Their spokesperson,

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Speaker 1: Landon Kleski, is with me on the line, land and

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Speaker 1: great to have you with us. Good afternoon, Thanks for

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Speaker 1: ber great to great to be a thank you. Now,

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Speaker 1: as you and your colleagues have told us before, there

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Speaker 1: is an active appetite for rare collectibles in South Africa

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Speaker 1: and somewhat niche but enthusiastic audience for rare coins. But Ard,

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Speaker 1: what isn't an invisible coin? Learned? How does somebody buy

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Speaker 1: a coin that doesn't exist or can't be seen.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it might be easier to explain as an

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Speaker 2: April fool stoke, but obviously it's very real. So so

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Speaker 2: SANGS is the local South African grading company, and they

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Speaker 2: came to us about maybe a month or two months

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Speaker 2: ago with this idea. So obviously, I think their idea

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Speaker 2: was that we saw all these like invisible art in

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Speaker 2: Europe where there was invisible art selling for millions of rands.

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Speaker 2: So the idea was to do something similar, but obviously

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Speaker 2: with the timing of the auction being in April fool.

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Speaker 2: So we obviously from the beginning, you know, said to everyone,

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Speaker 2: this is just a joke, it's not a real thing,

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Speaker 2: and I think we didn't really expect many people to

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Speaker 2: be interested in it. Obviously with coins, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of you know, older people involved. The States and can.

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Speaker 1: Sorry apologies for the background sound there, Lad, Sorry about that.

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Speaker 1: Where'd you just pick up again?

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Speaker 2: Yes, So with coins there's also a lot of you know,

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Speaker 2: older people involved who might not necessarily you know, accept

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Speaker 2: an idea like this quickly. So obviously it was important

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Speaker 2: for us to make sure that it you know, it

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Speaker 2: is a joke and everyone kind of gets that, and

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Speaker 2: it was actually a very big hit we had On Sunday,

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Speaker 2: we had a Joe Berger coin show where we had

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Speaker 2: about a thousand people or so that came to the

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Speaker 2: show and it's something that everyone looked at. You know,

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Speaker 2: everyone's laughing because you know, it's this invisible coin. So

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Speaker 2: it's in the the SAG's capsule and obviously there's nothing

53
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Speaker 2: in there but the idea that it is the only

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Speaker 2: invisible coin. So we sold it as you know, it's

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Speaker 2: a mintage of one. You know, the grading company is

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Speaker 2: never going to do another one again, so it is

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Speaker 2: that one of one, you know, which obviously collectors would would.

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Speaker 1: Really like the Emperor's new Clothes in coin form, I

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Speaker 1: mean London. Obviously it's a joke. It's a way of

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Speaker 1: you know, drawing attention to the auction and to the

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Speaker 1: actual real coins that are on offer. But what was surprising,

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Speaker 1: and I think what nobody saw coming is what the

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Speaker 1: response was like when that lot came up on the auction,

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Speaker 1: Because I think you had it set with a minimum

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Speaker 1: bit of two thousand rand. How quickly did you realize,

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Speaker 1: Hang on a second, this thing is actually going to

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Speaker 1: sell for quite a sum.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So our signature auctions usually are out about a

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Speaker 2: month before, so it actually starts it at zero rand, okay,

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Speaker 2: and then for a while it was at six hundred.

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Speaker 2: But the night of the auction it was already at

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Speaker 2: two thousand rand. So we already you know, spoke as

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Speaker 2: a company that you know, we're going to feel bad

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Speaker 2: if this thing sells for you know, five thousand or

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Speaker 2: ten thousand. So we decided we were going to donate

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Speaker 2: the money from the Invisible Coin to the South African

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Speaker 2: Coin Collectors Club. So it's a new nonprofit club, you know,

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Speaker 2: focusing on the education of coins and money, you know,

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Speaker 2: for a lot of younger people. And so that was

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Speaker 2: the idea. So we were like, okay, well it's going

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Speaker 2: to sell for two thousand round, we're just going to

82
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Speaker 2: donate it. And then obviously as the auction started, it

83
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Speaker 2: started going four or five, you know, six thousand, seven thousand,

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Speaker 2: and the whole time we're like, I can't believe it's

85
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Speaker 2: going for ten thousand, but obviously, you know, they were

86
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Speaker 2: ended up actually four people that ended up bidding for it,

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Speaker 2: and then towards the end two people you know that

88
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Speaker 2: obviously took it over that that sixty thousand marks. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's very very surprising. But you know, that's the idea

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Speaker 2: of you know, something completely different than something that has

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Speaker 2: that one of one feeling, because whoever ends up buying it,

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Speaker 2: there's never going to be something like that again, you know,

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Speaker 2: on the market. So that's the whole idea of it.

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Speaker 1: Does the person who bought it, I mean who paid

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Speaker 1: in the end it was sixty six thousand, seven hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty round for those who are interested, did that

97
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Speaker 1: person get like an empty box with a little tag

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Speaker 1: underneath saying, you know, sold on auction the world's first

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Speaker 1: invisible coin. Do they have something tangible to take away

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, So it was actually graded by the local

102
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Speaker 2: grading company, sayings. So coins when they get graded, they're

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Speaker 2: in like a plastic capsule where the coins get a score,

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Speaker 2: you know, from one to seventy seventy being perfect. So

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Speaker 2: obviously with the invisible coin, you can't give it a

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Speaker 2: score because you know, there is no coin, so all

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Speaker 2: that it says is South Africa invisible coin and genuine

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Speaker 2: you know, so the idea that it's a genuine coin,

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Speaker 2: so that's written on the slab, and obviously that comes

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Speaker 2: with a certificate from Sayings to say that they're never

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Speaker 2: going to do one again. So it's the only one

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Speaker 2: that they've done and obviously there will never be another one.

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Speaker 2: So ironically enough, I think that that invisible coin is

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Speaker 2: going to have a resell value because now it is

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Speaker 2: a numismatic item that is a one of one. So

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Speaker 2: even the person who ends up buying it, if they

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Speaker 2: now want to try and resell it, they probably would

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Speaker 2: be able to do it quite easily. So yeah, it's quite.

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Speaker 1: Strange, unbelievable. It is. It's a lot to wrap your

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Speaker 1: head around, particularly for those of us who grew up

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Speaker 1: before the each of computers and non fungible tokens and

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Speaker 1: the like. Okay, look, I mean all in good humor,

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Speaker 1: Landon and fantastic, that's such a nice whack of money

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Speaker 1: is going to the coin collectors club as a result.

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Speaker 1: But on a more serious note, obviously the invisible coin

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Speaker 1: was was part of the sort of the getting excitement

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Speaker 1: around the actual auction. You had another sixty plus rare

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Speaker 1: actual existing rare South African coins and banknotes on auction.

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Speaker 1: Why don't you tell us about what a couple of

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Speaker 1: those fetched and the most unique ones that went on sale?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, we were laughing. So we actually

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Speaker 2: had a bit of a watch group together, so usually

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Speaker 2: we live streamed the auctions online, so we had about

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Speaker 2: five or six people together, you know, obviously reacting and

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Speaker 2: you know, laughing and shock of this invisible coin. And

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Speaker 2: after that we had an actual very rare coin that

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Speaker 2: only sold for about ten or twelve thousand, you know,

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Speaker 2: so it was the idea of something that is super rare,

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Speaker 2: you know, going for so much less than that invisible coin.

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Speaker 2: But Joe, we had quite a lot of items, the

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Speaker 2: big five South African coins. There was a felt pont

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Speaker 2: on the auction. A big point of course is the

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty one tiki that was on there. We had

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Speaker 2: a eighteen ninety two pint half pint also, so you know,

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Speaker 2: the pont sold were just over four hundred thousand. The

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Speaker 2: thirty one tickie was about two hundred and seventy thousand,

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Speaker 2: So you know a lot of the very rare coins

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Speaker 2: you'll find in South Africa. There's quite a few coins

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Speaker 2: that will go from that, you know, two hundred to

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Speaker 2: five hundred thousand range, and then obviously a lot of

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Speaker 2: cheaper ones that will go, you know, between the twenty

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Speaker 2: to fifty thousand range that are also quite quite rare,

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Speaker 2: but not as rare.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what about listeners asking about the factors that make

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Speaker 1: an individual coin particularly valuable? Is it all to do

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Speaker 1: with rarity? Is it to do with the condition of

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Speaker 1: the coin? What are some of the other things that

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Speaker 1: influence the valuation of a coin and how much it's

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Speaker 1: likely to sell for?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so very much. It is related to a few things.

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Speaker 2: It's the condition of the coin, which is quite quite important.

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Speaker 2: Then except for the you're also looking at the the rarity.

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Speaker 2: Now obviously that mintage figure, so so you know, obviously

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Speaker 2: a coin there might be two million of them minted,

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Speaker 2: but it could be in that perfect seventy condition what

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Speaker 2: I spoke about before, and that increases the value. So

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Speaker 2: then it's you know a lot more so, it's difficult

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Speaker 2: sometimes to explain how you know, the same coin could

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Speaker 2: be a ten rand point, but it could also be

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Speaker 2: a twenty thousand rand point, you know, all based on

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Speaker 2: that condition that there might only be one out of

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Speaker 2: those two million coins that is a perfect seventy and

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Speaker 2: that's where the grading of it is so important, of course.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it's very much. It's based on the mintage figures,

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Speaker 2: and obviously from the South African Mint, we know exactly

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Speaker 2: the mintage figures of every coin that they've ever made,

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Speaker 2: so we can kind of figure out, you know what years,

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Speaker 2: what type of coins are difficult to get, and then

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Speaker 2: from the you know, the better the condition, the more

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Speaker 2: expensive the coins become. And then you also obviously look

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Speaker 2: at that, like I said, the rarity factor is the

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Speaker 2: big thing, Okay.

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Speaker 1: For anybody coming in midway to this conversation, My guest

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Speaker 1: on the line via zoom Land and Kleski of Basani

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Speaker 1: Auction House. They facilitated an auction of rare coins and

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Speaker 1: banknotes on Sunday evening and some genuinely rare coins going up,

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Speaker 1: fetching prices of over four hundred thousand rand. But the

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Speaker 1: really curious thing was the invisible coin selling for more

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Speaker 1: than sixty six thousand rands, some nobody expected it to

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Speaker 1: fetch London. If we just finished with a few minutes

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Speaker 1: of chat about coin collecting generally and the sort of

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Speaker 1: value thereof, before we talk about the apparent increase in

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Speaker 1: enthusiasts for this, do these collections are the sale of

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Speaker 1: coins like these have a role to play in our

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Speaker 1: sort of national storytelling, if I can put it that way,

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Speaker 1: do you think they have a place as receptacles of

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Speaker 1: a time and a place in South African history that

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Speaker 1: that sort of is important aside from the actual monetary

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Speaker 1: value of the coin one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, that's why I got into coins and

201
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Speaker 2: obviously loved so much, is because of the story and

202
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Speaker 2: the history that it tells, you know, and obviously you

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Speaker 2: know from the very first ever South African quin in

204
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Speaker 2: eighteen seventy four, you kind of have that story because

205
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Speaker 2: you've got not many people will know that Thomas front

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Speaker 2: Berger's he was the president of South Africa in eighteen

207
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Speaker 2: seventy four, and he's on the coin. Eighteen ninety two,

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Speaker 2: Paul Krueger is on the coin, and of course South

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Speaker 2: Africa became a union in nineteen ten, and then you

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Speaker 2: start having all the monarchs, you know, King George, Queen

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth eventually and you know, obviously you have a space

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Speaker 2: where Jan van Riebek, a lot of presidents in South

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Speaker 2: Africa obviously feature on the coins. So I think the coins,

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Speaker 2: you know, even though a lot of history and things

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Speaker 2: might sometimes get lost, the queens are kind of you know,

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Speaker 2: stay there, and that that's why so many of the

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Speaker 2: collectors and people like it. So a lot of people

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Speaker 2: focus on the on the gold value, and that's why

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Speaker 2: you get the silver Krugerrand and the gold krueger rand

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Speaker 2: because the weight of it is related to what the

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Speaker 2: gold price or the silver price is. So what we

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Speaker 2: try to do obviously is very different from that. It's

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Speaker 2: more the historic type of coin where you can have

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Speaker 2: a Sami Marx ticki that is two grands of gold,

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Speaker 2: which is about four five thousand raand but then that

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Speaker 2: coin is worth over half a million, you know, because

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Speaker 2: there was only two hundred and fifteen of them. So

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Speaker 2: that's the idea, you know, talking about very big treasures

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Speaker 2: you know in South Africa's history that people don't necessarily

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Speaker 2: realize how rare it is and obviously there is a

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Speaker 2: small group of people in the coin industry that does

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Speaker 2: and that's where you know, a lot of the value

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Speaker 2: comes from. So yeah, it's very much history connected.

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Speaker 1: We've got some questions coming in, including one that has

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Speaker 1: come in on a voice note with regards old coins,

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Speaker 1: which we'll take a listen to, and also a WhatsApp

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Speaker 1: in from Anne. If you do want to ask a

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Speaker 1: coin related question, very quickly send that question to seven

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Speaker 1: two five six seven one five six seven and asking

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Speaker 1: are there people or experts who could take a look

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Speaker 1: at my collection from childhood and advice on the value.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean that's what we do every day.

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Speaker 2: So obviously from the sanese Au Channel's point of view,

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Speaker 2: if people didn't have coin, you know, they can go

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Speaker 2: to Basanis or Kosa for the website. Obviously there is

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Speaker 2: or WhatsApp blind there. You know, usually the easiest is

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Speaker 2: for people just to send us photos and then from

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Speaker 2: there we kind of figure out the value of it.

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Speaker 2: But also remember you know, when coins are not graded

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Speaker 2: or you know, if they're not eighteen hundreds or very

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Speaker 2: you know, rare coins, often there's not much value, especially

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Speaker 2: if it's not silver or gold. You know. So you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people tend to have, you know, like

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Speaker 2: the Mandela five rand coins, a lot of five rand coins.

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Speaker 2: You know, those are just circulation coins, you know, they

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Speaker 2: were made to commemorate something and made for people to

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Speaker 2: use in their everyday life. So for a lot of

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Speaker 2: the coins that people look for are those lower mintage coins,

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Speaker 2: and those are coins that are mainly from eighteen ninety

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Speaker 2: two to nineteen oh two in the Zeta R period,

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Speaker 2: and then obviously in nineteen twenties, early nineteen fifties, especially

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty one, you know, is a year that you

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Speaker 2: almost never see interesting.

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Speaker 1: Landon Kuleski of Bisani Auction House chatting to us about

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Speaker 1: coin sales and the intriguing news that an invisible coin

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Speaker 1: fetched over sixty six thousand rand on auction this past weekend.

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Speaker 1: But some very interesting questions coming in from our listeners

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Speaker 1: about particular actual real coins and their coins, and a

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Speaker 1: few other curiosities. Let's just get through a couple of those.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with a voice note please ob.

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Speaker 2: Biblepa, how are you doing? I have about one thousand

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Speaker 2: of two rand notes, all numbers running in sequences at

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Speaker 2: worth anything today. Thank you, Lee or Lee from brud Arms.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Lee for the question London. Did you hear that?

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Speaker 2: Yes, so just to obviously you'll have to make sure

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Speaker 2: if he's got one hundred or if he's got a thousand.

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Speaker 2: So they used to do them in a batch of

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Speaker 2: one hundred and then a brick would be a thousand.

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Speaker 2: It depends on the serial numbers, so it could be

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Speaker 2: anywhere from a thousand of them would be probably about

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Speaker 2: fifty forty thousand rand, and then it'll go up if

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Speaker 2: he's got depending on the serial numbers. So he's got

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Speaker 2: a two rand, he's going to have to look for

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Speaker 2: a Y or W serial number. Then their replacement notes

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Speaker 2: and then obviously the value could be quite a bit less,

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Speaker 2: well quite a bit more. Sorry, So yeah, no's that's

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Speaker 2: that's quite If he's got a thousand, I've actually never

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Speaker 2: seen a thousand two rounds. Actually we used to get

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Speaker 2: one thousand and fifty rounds before, but I've never seen

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Speaker 2: one thousand two runds.

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Speaker 1: That's quite cool, Okay. Then a couple of other questions

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Speaker 1: on the WhatsApp line. Roger is wondering is a nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty two TICKI worth anything?

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Speaker 2: No, So that's yeah, unfortunately. That's a difficult part to

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Speaker 2: explain sometimes. Is you have that nineteen thirty one TICKI

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Speaker 2: that's worth you know, three hundred thousand, But it's only

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Speaker 2: worth that because there's only sixty two of them in

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Speaker 2: proof they were ever minted, where nineteen thirty two, for example,

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Speaker 2: they would have now made over a million of them

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Speaker 2: in that year, you know. So it's all really based

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Speaker 2: on the year, and it makes such a big difference.

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Speaker 2: If he does have a nineteen thirty two ticket, it's

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Speaker 2: probably about one hundred rand in a very very good condition.

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Speaker 2: It could become a lot more than that, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'd say about one hundred rand is.

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Speaker 1: Fair, okay, And okay, a question that I have no

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Speaker 1: context for whatsoever, So I'll read it to you as

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Speaker 1: I see it. And wants to know what is the

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Speaker 1: value or what are the values of Kent's coins k E.

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Speaker 1: N CE. I have no idea what that is.

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Speaker 2: And c Ken's coins, I wonder, so this could be

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Speaker 2: this could be some sort of token. So obviously a

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Speaker 2: token is a specific business or a place that has

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Speaker 2: something you know that you can only use there. Right,

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Speaker 2: I'll have to see it. It's difficult to give a

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Speaker 2: value on it. I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that was a little bit obscure to start with.

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Speaker 1: Sorry to put you on the spot like that, perhaps

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Speaker 1: Ray asking our old one cent vun ribic coins worth much.

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Speaker 2: No, no, so one cent coins are only worth one cent,

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Speaker 2: except there's only one exception, and that's nineteen sixty five.

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Speaker 2: That's the first year that the one cent coin came

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Speaker 2: out with van riebeck On there with that series and

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Speaker 2: the Afrikaans one that only made one thousand and eighty

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Speaker 2: one of them, so that coin becomes like a five

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Speaker 2: to ten thousand round quin the nineteen sixty five Afrikaans

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Speaker 2: one set. But except for that, from nineteen sixty six

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Speaker 2: until two thousand and one when they got rid of

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Speaker 2: the one cent quen, it's all worth one cent.

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Speaker 1: Okay, thanks for that, Thank you too to my producer.

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Speaker 1: Barry has done a quick bit of research in the

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Speaker 1: background and eight Google Grand because Google tells us Kent's

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Speaker 1: coins are rare historical trade tokens and you're write issued

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Speaker 1: specifically by the Strauchen and Company trading firm between eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy four and nineteen thirty two in East griqualand considered

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Speaker 1: South Africa's first indigenous currency to be in wide circulation

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Speaker 1: and predating the Kruger coinage. Very interesting. Thank you Barry

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Speaker 1: for finding that for us so quickly. Right, okay, so

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Speaker 1: last question I think before we must wrap up. Steve

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Speaker 1: wants to know hearing you reference you know the concept

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Speaker 1: of a tiki being worth so much money, even if

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Speaker 1: it is one very specific year's TICKI. He's wondering, do

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Speaker 1: we know how many of those rare tikis are unaccounted

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Speaker 1: for lying in the bottom of somebody's draw or perhaps

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Speaker 1: falling down the back of a chest of draws, and

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Speaker 1: somebody's got five thousand ruands worth of rare coin gathering

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Speaker 1: dust in the back of a cupboard. Do you have

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Speaker 1: sort of a way of tracking how many we're produced

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Speaker 1: and how many are still potentially out there?

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Speaker 2: Yes, we do so. Obviously the grading companies they report

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Speaker 2: how many they grade. Now, obviously that means there are

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Speaker 2: still some in collections that are ungraded, and then some

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Speaker 2: that are missing. So for a nineteen thirty one tiki,

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Speaker 2: there's sixty two improved, there's sixty six business strike. So

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Speaker 2: it's a total of one hundred and twenty eight from

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Speaker 2: that there's only been about forty of them found, so

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Speaker 2: more than two thirds are still missing. That's the exciting part,

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Speaker 2: you know. It kind of makes me feel like a

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Speaker 2: treasure hunter in my job, where you find these items

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Speaker 2: that people know exist but you've never seen, you know,

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Speaker 2: so earlier in the year, during the Felt Pond period

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Speaker 2: in nineteen oh two, that was the last coin that

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Speaker 2: the Afrikaan has made, you know, before the British took control,

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Speaker 2: and there's a specific Felt Pont that was awarded to

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Speaker 2: General Muller. He was the person in charge of making

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Speaker 2: those coins. And so there's a one of one Felt

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Speaker 2: Pont that we found probably about two three months ago,

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Speaker 2: which is something that no one's ever seen, no one

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Speaker 2: knew how it looks like. So that's the exciting part

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Speaker 2: of my job is to know that, you know, this

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Speaker 2: specific point, there's forty of them missing, or there's ten,

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Speaker 2: or there's five of them missing, and over time, over

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Speaker 2: the years you obviously get you find those. So definitely

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Speaker 2: are quite a lot of coins and we have not

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent accurate, but we have a pretty good

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Speaker 2: idea of what is missing.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely fascinating conversation. Thank you, treasure hunter Landon Kleski of

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Speaker 1: the Sari Auction House. A real pleasure having you with

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Speaker 1: us today and thanks for your time.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much, book, I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Keep well.