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Speaker 1: Current events, developing stories, tough questions, your voice making a difference.

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Speaker 2: This is breakfast.

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Speaker 1: Onto this now. I asked a question earlier. Are we

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Speaker 1: at the precipice or have we fallen over the cliff?

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Speaker 1: Because for all the attention we're paying to current allegations

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Speaker 1: of corruption, let's not forget this has been a journey

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Speaker 1: we have been on for quite some time. The investigative

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Speaker 1: journalist and author Peter Louis Meiberg, writing for The Daily Maverick,

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Speaker 1: has traced more than eleven point three million rand in

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Speaker 1: unexplained cash deposits into a company alleged linked to the

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Speaker 1: former ESCAM and Transnent boss Brian Mulifair. Seven hundred and

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Speaker 1: six separate deposits made over a time, but a noticeable

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Speaker 1: spike near escam's Johannesburg headquarters as soon as he moved there,

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Speaker 1: and all of them stopping as soon as he left. Peter,

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Speaker 1: he Lory and my book, always a pleasure to have

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Speaker 1: you on our show. Thank you once more for your time.

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Speaker 2: Morning Monghari, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Eleven point three million rand seems like an extraordinary amount

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Speaker 1: of money from cash deposits.

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Speaker 2: Look, that's always going to be interesting and suspicious from

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Speaker 2: an investigations point of view, not only in terms of

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Speaker 2: investigative journalism, but also you know, forensic examiners and force

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Speaker 2: and bodies view large cash deposits in a rather dim light.

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Speaker 2: You know, they always run his red flag. So this

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Speaker 2: report follows on an investigation we published earlier in March

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Speaker 2: where we first linked Primal Affair to some of the

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Speaker 2: outflows from this account. So there were payments made towards

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Speaker 2: a wedding for Primal Laffair, and then a whole range

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Speaker 2: of other what seemed to be lifestyle expenses was being

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Speaker 2: covered from this Falka Cup account because of the on

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Speaker 2: the back of the cash deposits that s routinely entered

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Speaker 2: the account. So there's installment of our investigation. Now it's

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Speaker 2: at the inflows. We look at how the money went

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Speaker 2: into this account over that near five year period that

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Speaker 2: circa twenty thirteen to twenty eighteen, and then we kind

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Speaker 2: of very interestingly try to pinpoint where most of the

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Speaker 2: money went into the account. And that's them with his

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Speaker 2: very strong correlation surface between money going in and these

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Speaker 2: key points intimate EFA. So properties he owned where he

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Speaker 2: worked at is comt mega at Park et cetera.

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Speaker 1: I mean, let's be here, this this this money was

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Speaker 1: deposited into the account of an entity called Palco cap

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Speaker 1: and not necessarily into his personal account.

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Speaker 2: Yep, that's correct, that's correct. Yeah, so there's some often's lenk.

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Speaker 2: But where you're curious is that he's very closely associated

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Speaker 2: with the director of Falca Caps. So with a f

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Speaker 2: is not a director of Falca Cap, but he shares

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Speaker 2: several co directorships with the delayed who runs palcacup in

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Speaker 2: other entities, so there's a strong business link. And then

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Speaker 2: she also attended his wedding back in twenty sixteen, so

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Speaker 2: the two of them do appear to be quite closely associated.

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Speaker 1: I was curious about your tracking of Brian Malifair's movements

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Speaker 1: using the former public protector at the Contulia Donzela's State

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Speaker 1: of capture report.

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Speaker 2: So that's actually where it gets. You know, it's the

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Speaker 2: more data we have, the clearer picture we can drow

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Speaker 2: up in, the more sort of bits of TATA you

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Speaker 2: can seed into and compare to pre existing state capture records.

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Speaker 2: So we looked at those. So in what was that

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Speaker 2: would have been about twenty seventeen twenty sixteen twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: the stead of Capture report famously detailed Rymer visits what

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Speaker 2: appeared to be his visits to Saxon World, but also

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Speaker 2: phone calls that he had with the Gupta brothers and

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Speaker 2: some of the associates, people who were in their business benures.

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Speaker 2: And then what I've not done is just compared that

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Speaker 2: timeline of visits and phone calls t the Palcay Cup

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Speaker 2: records and then again quite interestingly, on the majority of

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Speaker 2: the cases where there was contact between Malifia and the

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Speaker 2: Gupta's on that very day or the day there after,

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Speaker 2: money would then get deposited into the Palka Cup account. So,

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Speaker 2: of course you know, this is all very circumstantials to

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Speaker 2: start of being put together. But given the context and

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Speaker 2: what we know and what at the Zundo Commission, we

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Speaker 2: have to ask point of questions as to where this

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Speaker 2: money originated from. Did it come from the Gypta's, was

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Speaker 2: it the alleged Grypta bribes have we heard about at

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Speaker 2: the Zondo Commission from testimony from the likes of his driver,

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Speaker 2: for instance, who took him to the Grypta residence.

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Speaker 1: And also which driver said on several occasions he was

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Speaker 1: instructed by Milifa to deposit monies at various eighty ms,

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Speaker 1: some of them close to the Transnent headquarters, when of

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Speaker 1: course Malifa was the CEO there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So again just like another of bringing together some

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Speaker 2: very interesting bits of information. So that testimony service at

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Speaker 2: the Zonnor Commission that with specifically said he was instructed

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Speaker 2: to deposit money at the Colton Center when mister Malifa

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Speaker 2: was transitd CEO, and then the Palca cap records now

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Speaker 2: show that some of his money also was deposited into

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Speaker 2: the Palca Cup account at the Colton Center at an

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Speaker 2: FMB atm.

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Speaker 1: There's a particular eight AM in Irene Village Mall in Centurion.

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Speaker 1: Now why is this one notable? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So this is very interesting because out of all these,

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Speaker 2: I mean, there were forty different points where money into

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Speaker 2: the Palca Cup a count across South Africa, but the

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Speaker 2: one that really stood out and got by far an

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Speaker 2: outside chunk of the inflows was the one at Irene

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Speaker 2: Village Mall, and that happens to be a stone's throw.

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Speaker 2: It's two point four kilometers away from mister Morlaf's primary

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Speaker 2: residence at the time. He sold the property inside the

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Speaker 2: Cornwall Hill Country of State, so it would have taken

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Speaker 2: him on any given day traffic considerations and outside traffic considerations,

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Speaker 2: it would have taken him around five minutes to travel

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Speaker 2: from that ATM to his house and three point four

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Speaker 2: million round in cash deposits two hundred and twenty one

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Speaker 2: individual cash deposits between the Semi twenty seventeen and April

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Speaker 2: twenty eighteen went into the parka kup account just around

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Speaker 2: the corner from the Cornwall Hill residence.

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Speaker 1: And then of course there's another ATM near mego At Park,

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Speaker 1: s COM's headquarters, which until he was announced as CEO,

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Speaker 1: wasn't receiving all that much cash, and as soon as

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Speaker 1: he was at mego At Park it started receiving quite

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Speaker 1: quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: And then so yeah, again the chronology very very interesting.

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Speaker 2: So the wood Meet F and B got almost no

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Speaker 2: deposits to small deposits totaling about ten thousand round in

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Speaker 2: the period prior to into the is COM c oposition,

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Speaker 2: and then from around twenty fifth April twenty fifteen, there's

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Speaker 2: a drastic, drastic increase in deposits at this location and

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Speaker 2: it ended up getting almost four hundred and city thousand

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Speaker 2: random in the period he was is com Co and

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Speaker 2: this this atm is Okay to two point six kilometers

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Speaker 2: away from mega At Park. It would be the closest

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Speaker 2: if in B two mega At Park. And not only

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Speaker 2: that been as seen as mister Malva left Escomb again

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Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen, that would have been on the back

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Speaker 2: of those twoy Mon said revelations the payments at the

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Speaker 2: wood meet if and B literally stopped during the months

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Speaker 2: that he left iscom Peter.

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Speaker 1: Louis, You've looked at alleged corruption in many different investigations,

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Speaker 1: many different cases with different individuals. One of the questions

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Speaker 1: we are having a conversation about this morning is whether

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Speaker 1: or not ordinary folk should question unexplained wealth around them. Again,

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Speaker 1: I'll take you to where we started this conversation. Eleven

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Speaker 1: odd million rand deposited into this account via cash payments

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Speaker 1: over a number of years, and nobody raised an eyebrow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess we were too busy focusing on the group.

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Speaker 2: Does I suppose I don't know, but yeah, definitely so.

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Speaker 2: Unexplained wealth is always just from a forensic investigation sort

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Speaker 2: of point of view, it does raise in a red flags,

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Speaker 2: especially if there are big cash deposits involved.

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Speaker 1: Sure, but what I'm trying to get to is our

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Speaker 1: system of detecting these things working.

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Speaker 2: On paper, it's supposed to work, but in reality it's

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Speaker 2: not so. The fi S the Financial Intelligence Committee, though

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Speaker 2: it should have flagged these transactions, and the FNB should

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Speaker 2: have sent the suspicious transaction reports to the f C,

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Speaker 2: and then the relevant law enforced bodies should have taken

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Speaker 2: a look at it, given his position as s com

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Speaker 2: CEO and allegations, et cetera. But clearly, in reality the

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Speaker 2: system is not working as it should because the if

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Speaker 2: I see reports, do you get generated? We understand that

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Speaker 2: banks like I can't be that kind of almost automatically, especially.

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Speaker 1: With AI now that would have been then.

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Speaker 2: But now AID would surely automatically draw up a if

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Speaker 2: I see special suspicious transaction report and flag it with

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Speaker 2: the I, f I C. But where the issue comes

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Speaker 2: in this sort of the pipeline of how it works

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Speaker 2: is deep law enforced bodies are clearly not picking up

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Speaker 2: these reports or doing much with it. Otherwise we would

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Speaker 2: have seen more action on these cases.

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Speaker 1: And people think they can get away with it. You

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Speaker 1: can read all about it. In the Daily Maverick. Peter

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Speaker 1: Louis Meiberg, investigative journalist and author