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Speaker 1: We booked this conversation yesterday with the threats of Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump of targeting civilian infrastructure, promising the destruction of an

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Speaker 1: Iranian civilization round about two o'clock, three o'clock yesterday afternoon.

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Speaker 1: The world has changed in just over twelve hours. But

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Speaker 1: the threats by Donald Trump promising to destroy a civilization?

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Speaker 1: When does the rhetoric forfile of international law? Professor Lieutenant

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Speaker 1: Colonel Michelle nell As, a senior lecturer in Criminal and

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Speaker 1: Military law at the University of Stalin Bosher. Let us

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Speaker 1: not forget at the beginning of the war, we are

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Speaker 1: just under two hundred people, many of them school children

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Speaker 1: killed in a rocket attack in a school in Iran.

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Speaker 1: Let's park that idea. But with the utterances of Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump promising threatening to destroy a civilization, does this fall

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Speaker 1: in the ambu of international war crimes? Good morning and good.

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Speaker 2: Morning, Yes, most definitely, because I think what international law

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Speaker 2: is very very clear on is that the direct targeting

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Speaker 2: of civilian infrastructure and civilians definitely would constitue to walk crun.

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Speaker 3: I think, my, you know, it's going into the retric

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Speaker 3: that has.

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Speaker 2: Been saying now at a destruction you know, for me,

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Speaker 2: that kind of starts bordering on genocidal intent. That is

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Speaker 2: not really being discussed in the media.

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Speaker 3: You know, everybody's concentrating on war cruns.

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Speaker 2: But you know, and you have to start looking at

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Speaker 2: the retric as well.

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Speaker 1: What is an international law if not enforceable. Let's be

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Speaker 1: very very honest. Even if and I see see prosecutor

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Speaker 1: starts drafting and indict, but now that's never going to

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Speaker 1: be action. Never will we see an the rest of

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump. In fact, the United States Supreme Court has

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Speaker 1: absolved Donald Trump from any form of crime while in

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Speaker 1: acting in his official capacity as as the head of

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Speaker 1: State and the commander in chief of the United States.

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Speaker 2: Michelle Okay, so asili native States Jimmy, in terms of

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Speaker 2: international law is will not be prosecuted. I think the

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Speaker 2: problem that the ICC have at this particular stage is

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Speaker 2: that you know, you have your your your nations such

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Speaker 2: as the US, Israel, Iran, they're not signatant to their

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Speaker 2: own statute, so a direct prosecution which would not be possible.

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Speaker 2: So the only thing that is basically left is then

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Speaker 2: for the Security Council to do something about this.

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Speaker 3: And we know with the P five, you know.

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Speaker 2: That the US is going to and it's as we

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Speaker 2: most probably block the Security Council from holding Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: Accountable in any case. You know, this is this is.

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Speaker 2: The discussion in terms of international or what is the

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Speaker 2: utility of the United Nations and the International Court that

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Speaker 2: we have if we cannot hold people counterpart And unfortunately

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Speaker 2: we don't have clear answers on this, but I think

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Speaker 2: it really does not blurk well for the legitimacy of

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Speaker 2: international currently.

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Speaker 1: So my final question where does that leave the Geneva

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Speaker 1: Convention of nineteen forty nine a post World War two globe?

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Speaker 1: Do we rewrite the books, do we leave it as

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Speaker 1: a we as or do we just reiterate what we've

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Speaker 1: been talking about for the last eighteen months now that

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Speaker 1: the rules based order is well and truly dead.

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Speaker 2: I think the thing is the Geneva Conventions what we have.

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Speaker 2: I don't think the world is in a geopolitical space

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Speaker 2: where there will be any negotiation any changes to international

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Speaker 2: law because you need state practice and you need state

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Speaker 2: agreement to change international law. And I don't think that

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Speaker 2: you politically we are in a space to change it.

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Speaker 2: So unfortunately, the Geneva Conventions is what we have, and

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Speaker 2: it's just about trying to enforce that, and the world

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Speaker 2: multi place pressure on the powers to actually comply with

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Speaker 2: the laws because generally, you know, countries they want to

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Speaker 2: be seen as complying.

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Speaker 3: We are.

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Speaker 2: This is the US, what they're currently doing. It's an

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Speaker 2: a nominee because they've always you know, as you say,

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Speaker 2: a face and say, you know, we do actually comply

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Speaker 2: with international law. So unfortunately, this is the system we have,

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Speaker 2: and I think this is probably the system.

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Speaker 3: We are going to be stuck with it for the

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Speaker 3: forcible future.

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Speaker 1: Professor Lieutenant Colonel Michele Al Stanabosh University. All that stands

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Speaker 1: between the world and Donald Trump is fifteen members of

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Speaker 1: his cabinet plus the Vice President to enact a twenty

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Speaker 1: fifth Amendment, But then that would take two thirds of

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Speaker 1: a US Congress to adopt and endorse. The US Cabinet saying,

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Speaker 1: step aside, President Trump, we don't think you're within your faculties.