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Speaker 1: Seven notes. You're listening to the best of the Money Show.

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Speaker 2: The Money Show. Welcome to the best bits of the

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Speaker 2: Money Show. A digest of some of the most important thoughts,

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Speaker 2: comments and insights from this the last Serious Money week

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five. If you have more you want

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Speaker 2: to know, if there are things that you think you

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Speaker 2: need to listen to again, if perhaps there is someone

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Speaker 2: that you know who maybe does need to listen to

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Speaker 2: this this Christmas a good gift for them, of course,

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Speaker 2: there's a free link to our podcast. You can go

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Speaker 2: to our website or your podcast app and search for

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Speaker 2: The Money Show to start. Some of the news stories

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Speaker 2: that we thought were important from this important final Serious

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Speaker 2: Money week in December. First, our annual inflation unexpectedly softening

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Speaker 2: in November, edging much closer to the Reserve Bank's new

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Speaker 2: target of three percent, boosting hopes for an interest rate

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Speaker 2: cut next month, coming in at just three and a

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Speaker 2: half percent. Meat prices, I am afraid still quite high,

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Speaker 2: but plenty of other element and springing down that final

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Speaker 2: inflation rate. The big aluminium smelter in Mozambique, MOSALL is

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Speaker 2: going to be placed on care and maintenance from March

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Speaker 2: it's owner South thirty two wasn't able to get another

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Speaker 2: electricity supply. It's been negotiating with the people in Mozambique

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Speaker 2: with ESCAM. Unfortunately no joy. That's three percent of Mozambique's

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Speaker 2: GDP that's going to be switched off just before April.

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Speaker 2: And in the US, the board of Warner Brothers Discovery

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Speaker 2: rejecting the hostile Bird from Paramount Skydance. They saying that

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Speaker 2: Paramount has not given proper, adequate financing assurances. I think

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Speaker 2: that one is going to get nice and ugly over

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Speaker 2: the next couple of weeks. Tonight we bring you a

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Speaker 2: mix of stories from the world of money from the

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Speaker 2: week that has been a business book review. This week

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Speaker 2: we spoke to Ian Man, the managing director of Gateway's

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Speaker 2: Business Consultants. He looked at his top books for twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five.

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Speaker 3: The very first book I'm going to be sharing with you.

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Speaker 3: At the back of the book, he says, this is

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Speaker 3: a book for people who don't like books on leadership management.

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Speaker 2: My kind of guy.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, It's called Slaying the Standard. And what's most interesting

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Speaker 3: about this book is that he's the author. I don't

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Speaker 3: know him personally. He's a South African. He's brought to

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Speaker 3: think called the Alpha group, and apparently it's an extraordinarily

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Speaker 3: well they're involved in things like insurance, fitness and hospitality

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Speaker 3: and other things. But what is so interesting about the

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Speaker 3: book is that there's a lot of very practical, very

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Speaker 3: wise things in the book, but they're down to earth.

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Speaker 3: There's no rocket science yet. The point is that it's

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Speaker 3: the simple things that we should know that we don't know,

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Speaker 3: or the things that we overlook, and as you're so

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Speaker 3: busy with trying to maintain your business that you just

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Speaker 3: don't get things done. Before we do that, I want

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Speaker 3: to point out one thing because I think this is relevant.

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Speaker 3: In South Africa, the ratio of ismmes to large businesses

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Speaker 3: is ninety one to nine, so we are most South

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Speaker 3: Africans are involved in large inmmes. These are one, by

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Speaker 3: the way, he's the registered ones. Yeah, and very few

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Speaker 3: in the very big ones. What we don't do enough

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Speaker 3: talking about when we talk about leadership or management managing

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Speaker 3: businesses is to worry about how does the smaller business

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Speaker 3: run itself? And I think that one I like most

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Speaker 3: about this book was that he's looking primarily at I

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Speaker 3: thought he was aiming primarily at the smaller, small, medium

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Speaker 3: and micro enterprise enterprise. And he's got a lot of

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Speaker 3: very very good information, a lot of good ideas that

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Speaker 3: worth talking about.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things I find interesting about so

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Speaker 2: many leadership books is you know you'll see that effect

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Speaker 2: habits of people or whatever, and they'll say, you know,

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Speaker 2: get up early, or I like to take time to

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Speaker 2: think before six in the morning. I mean, no one's

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Speaker 2: going to do that. So I'm interested by the point

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Speaker 2: you make that this is all very doable.

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Speaker 3: Very doable, very dub And I think the one thing

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Speaker 3: that starts off by saying is is this perfection isn't

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Speaker 3: what you're looking for. You're not looking for flaws. It's

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Speaker 3: you're going to have to accept that that thing doesn't exist.

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Speaker 3: What's far more important than perfection we are going to

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Speaker 3: be perfect, is we're going to progress. Now, there's not

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Speaker 3: a new idea. Her way back in twenty and eleven,

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Speaker 3: if my memory is certainly correctly, Theresa Annabio from Harvard

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Speaker 3: wrote a book called The Progress Principle, and what she

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Speaker 3: did was she proved that the biggest motivator of human

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Speaker 3: beings because we have to motivate people to make progress

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Speaker 3: is not what we always thought it was. It's not

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Speaker 3: that you're having fun at work. It's not that you

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Speaker 3: have friends at work. It's not even that you're well paid.

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Speaker 3: It's not that your boss is nice to you. None

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Speaker 3: of those things count. In fact, all of those things

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Speaker 3: together don't count as much as the one thing she

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Speaker 3: says is makes the biggest difference, and that is I

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Speaker 3: feel I'm making progress. So this this feeling of efficacy,

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Speaker 3: I'm actually getting better at something. Rather so somebody can say,

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Speaker 3: what was the best thing that happened to you today,

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Speaker 3: wasn't it You've got the raids. I went to my bus,

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Speaker 3: I set him I've got a project I want to do,

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Speaker 3: and you see, go ahead, Yes, go ahead. And that's

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Speaker 3: a feeling that my life is getting better and I'm

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Speaker 3: making progress is really really important. I think that one

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Speaker 3: of the things he's specialist here is it's not perfection.

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Speaker 3: We're not looking for flaws perfection. All we're looking for

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Speaker 3: is making progress, and you're just getting a little better

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Speaker 3: all the time. And I think there was that's a

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Speaker 3: profound thought. And we've got to get away from the

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Speaker 3: perfections and stuff because it's nonsense. It doesn't work. So

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Speaker 3: I thought there was a very very useful point. He

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Speaker 3: also makes another useful point, and most of these points,

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Speaker 3: by the way, on not points that no one has

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Speaker 3: ever mentioned before, which is quite nice. And the next

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Speaker 3: one he talks about is having exceptional staff, and he

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Speaker 3: said he wanted exceptional staff at one time realized what

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Speaker 3: a bad idea that was. Well, there's there's a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of it.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of books, a number of books I've

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Speaker 3: read about teams made up of really straight players, particularly

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Speaker 3: football for some reason. Other we have a group of superstars,

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Speaker 3: they don't do particularly well. You're better of having people

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Speaker 3: not superstars, who play together. And the type of things

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Speaker 3: that you want to do, you you want to get

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Speaker 3: people who are easy, who are able to get on

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Speaker 3: with other people better. You want to be sure that

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Speaker 3: you don't when you get mad at somebody. I haven't

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Speaker 3: checked this out. He says, your IQ drops seventy percent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure, but.

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Speaker 3: I don't wear seventies right or forties right. But your

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Speaker 3: IQ drops definitely when you start getting mad at people.

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Speaker 3: And he says that what we want to do with

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Speaker 3: our staff is we want to be sure that we

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Speaker 3: stop gossiping, we stop spreading rumors about colleagues, and we

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Speaker 3: just get and we just accept that we have to

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Speaker 3: get on with each other. That's it. I don't have

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Speaker 3: to we don't have to be friends. We certainly have

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Speaker 3: to get on with each other. And gossiping and telling

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Speaker 3: and spreading rumors about people doesn't help anyone. All obvious stuff,

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Speaker 3: but stuff we don't. We don't place much attention on.

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Speaker 3: Many talks by talk straight, and I'll talk to more

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Speaker 3: by one the other box which talks about talking straight.

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Speaker 3: He says, no sugar coating. He said, you don't. Don't.

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Speaker 3: Don't go around protecting your turf. He says, open the

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Speaker 3: playing fields. If something is going wrong, open it. What

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Speaker 3: they've done at very very one of the best run

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Speaker 3: companies I've ever come across is Netflix and the intros.

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Speaker 3: In Netflix, they have a policy that to make mistakes

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Speaker 3: is fine. We don't mind you making mistakes, or we

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Speaker 3: expect you to do we expect you to sunlight them.

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Speaker 3: So if you've messed up, just lot three million dollars

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Speaker 3: because I invest in a dog, and you get it

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Speaker 3: way together and you say, look, I invest in this

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Speaker 3: because I thought this would happen. I didn't take that

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Speaker 3: idea into account. I didn't look at this. I didn't

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Speaker 3: look at that. And you go and you tell as

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Speaker 3: many people as you possibly can. And the reason behind that,

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Speaker 3: the reason behind that is that people want to be

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Speaker 3: want to get ter all the time, and they've actually

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Speaker 3: built into their culture, a culture of Netflix is where

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Speaker 3: we're not a we're not a family, we're a team,

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Speaker 3: and if you know as good as the best player,

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Speaker 3: we're going to relegate you.

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Speaker 4: So it was very keen.

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Speaker 3: I think that that that's stimulus of getting people to

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Speaker 3: open the playing fields and work is a really good one.

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Speaker 2: And then one of the other books you've picked is

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Speaker 2: Conquering Crisis by Admiral William mcgraven.

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Speaker 3: Interesting William mccraven. I've read quite a lot of books

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Speaker 3: about the military, and it's not because I have any

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Speaker 3: respect for the idea of the military. I think one

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Speaker 3: of the biggest mistakes human beings have ever made is

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Speaker 3: to invest in things that well, so many trillions and

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Speaker 3: stuff which doesn't add much to humanity. But one of

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Speaker 3: the things mccraven does, he was he was the head

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Speaker 3: of Special Ops for the United States and he at

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Speaker 3: the end of his career, he became the head of

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Speaker 3: the Universities of Texas, the system, and he has a

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Speaker 3: man who's been through everything from Afghanistan to all sorts

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Speaker 3: of things. And one of the things he does, he's

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Speaker 3: got he's got a ten point plan, which I think

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Speaker 3: in the book, by the Way says this is these

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Speaker 3: are the lessons you better learn when you don't need them.

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Speaker 3: And the lesson starts this is bear in mind that

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Speaker 3: the first report you get about something being wrong is wrong.

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Speaker 3: It's whatever it is, you can be assured it's not correct.

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Speaker 3: And I think that when we hear bad news, we

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Speaker 3: tend to either fall over or try to respond to

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Speaker 3: bad news, which is the wrong thing to do. Try

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Speaker 3: and work out what's really going on. A very very

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Speaker 3: sound advice. The second thing he talks about, and he says,

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Speaker 3: throughout your career, as you're building up, building up your

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Speaker 3: your your management team or your friend team or your colleagues,

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Speaker 3: see that you have a council of what he calls

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Speaker 3: counsel of colonels, people who you can talk to. Those

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Speaker 3: are people who can say you're talking nonsense, you're out

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Speaker 3: of line, and they'll talk straight to you. They're not

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Speaker 3: trying to cover anything. If you can get if you

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Speaker 3: can surround yourself with the council of kernels when things

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Speaker 3: go wrong, but again, be extraordinary valuable to you. The

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Speaker 3: third thing he said, I love. He says, bad news

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Speaker 3: doesn't get better with time.

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Speaker 2: You have to do something.

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Speaker 1: It tends.

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Speaker 3: What people tend to what people tend to think is look,

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Speaker 3: let me not mention this right now. Let's just let's

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Speaker 3: try and see see if it'll die die down. It

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Speaker 3: never dies down. And so when you accept I might

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Speaker 3: as well come and tell you right now that things

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Speaker 3: have gone terribly wrong. They wait until you find out

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Speaker 3: for yourself. Another point he mentions, which is obvious, but

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Speaker 3: I think it's it's it's it's very useful. And he

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Speaker 3: gives all these He gives examples throughout the book of

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Speaker 3: his experiences in the military, and with these sorts of experiences,

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Speaker 3: he says, weaponary. That's the truth. There's nothing so when

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Speaker 3: when you as soon as you start lying or or

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Speaker 3: covering up, you're going to get yourself into warm more

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Speaker 3: trouble and have more and more people bothering you. The

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Speaker 3: thing actually weaponized. The fact I'm telling you exact truth

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Speaker 3: is what it really is. There's there's a couple of

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Speaker 3: other ones which I think which are particularly important, and

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Speaker 3: and the one is don't rush to failure, take your

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Speaker 3: time as much as you possibly can to try and

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Speaker 3: work out what's really going on, and deal with things

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Speaker 3: slowly and carefully as you as you as you as

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Speaker 3: you possibly can. He ended his career as the head

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Speaker 3: of the University of Texas and really messed up. He

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Speaker 3: bought land which you hoped was was going to be

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Speaker 3: used for a tech university, which never happened, and there

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Speaker 3: was wasting money. And anyway, after he been beaten up

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Speaker 3: publicly by the by the press, he said he heard

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Speaker 3: one heard a man who's been in military for a

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Speaker 3: long time standing outside with his secretary and chatting moral

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Speaker 3: moral check, moral check, and you see, I know what

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Speaker 3: the term is. And the guy burst into his office

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Speaker 3: past the secretary. In the military, they everything called the

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Speaker 3: moral check. When things go wrong, people around you need

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Speaker 3: to check how are you feeling, how you doing? Do

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Speaker 3: you need any help? And I think that's a one,

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Speaker 3: such a wonderful thing that the people around you they

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Speaker 3: also need. It's not only you you in your crisis.

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Speaker 2: It's you and the whole group, and there's we do

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Speaker 2: need to talk to some of the other books. Please

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Speaker 2: do Super Bloom How Technologies of Connection Tear Us Apart

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Speaker 2: its by Nicholas car I haven't come across this before,

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Speaker 2: but I mean it sounds like like what's really going

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Speaker 2: on with with with all of us social media? There's

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Speaker 2: too much connection. We never get away from it. And

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Speaker 2: Australia is looking at banning social media for under sixteen's

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Speaker 2: or has done and things like that.

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Speaker 3: The book is is very history of communication from the

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Speaker 3: telegraph to to to to the live stream, and he

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Speaker 3: shows that what's happened with each evolution. There was a

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Speaker 3: time when people bought a newspaper, or some people bought

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Speaker 3: a newspaper, and when it was printed it was relevant,

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Speaker 3: but you only got it much later and could only

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Speaker 3: read it and only read if you bought it. Then

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Speaker 3: we evolved, and eventually we got to a point where

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Speaker 3: we've got radio so everybody could hear the same thing

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Speaker 3: at the same time. And then we've got to television

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Speaker 3: where we can also see the same see the same

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Speaker 3: things at the same time, and and the way we've

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Speaker 3: communicators evolved a lot as far as he's concerned. The

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Speaker 3: biggest the biggest change was was live feed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he said.

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Speaker 3: What happens is that live feeds are built on algorithms,

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Speaker 3: so there's not something monitoring what's going on. The algorithm says,

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Speaker 3: for example, to pick an example of used before and

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Speaker 3: the massacre of the of the of the of the

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Speaker 3: wigas was based not on the fact that they'd done

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Speaker 3: anything wrong. It was based on the fact that the

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Speaker 3: algorithms that they were fed, algorithm which stimulated anger and fear.

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Speaker 3: Anything that stimulates anger and fear will keep you going

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Speaker 3: and keep you more interested. Therefore they'll send you more

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Speaker 3: and more of those feeds. So you're being fed all

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Speaker 3: the stuff that you really want to hear, or probably

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Speaker 3: don't even want to hear, but it keeps coming at you.

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Speaker 3: And probably one of the most dangerous things about all

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Speaker 3: this is that they're not it's not like offering you,

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Speaker 3: offering you cigarettes when you're fourteen years old or drugs

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Speaker 3: when you're older. We want these drugs, We want them

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Speaker 3: very badly because there's something that people want more than

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Speaker 3: anything else. People want to be informed, and what they're

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Speaker 3: doing the same will inform you. So it's really, really

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Speaker 3: addictive and people spend an enormous amount of time on this. Well,

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Speaker 3: I think it's most important, but super bloom and I

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Speaker 3: think it's a book very very worth reading. It's a

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Speaker 3: serious book and well researched. Is that that's where we're going. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and we might as well. Just we have to deal

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Speaker 3: with it. It's not going to go away, and we're

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Speaker 3: not by saying that little children can't use the internet.

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Speaker 3: So I'm not going to fix it. Just it may

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Speaker 3: delay it if we can.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much too. I mean, I think

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Speaker 2: it's one of the big ish questions of our time.

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Speaker 2: And then five types of wealth Shill Bloom.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, I think what we've the book is not

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Speaker 3: an unusual book, but it's one of the best written

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Speaker 3: books of the type. Neils A He was a son

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Speaker 3: of what Americans called not a wealthy man. His father

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Speaker 3: was a university professor, and say he wasn't. He didn't

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Speaker 3: grow up in a home with great wealth, and he

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Speaker 3: always wanted to be very, very rich. And the way

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Speaker 3: to do that, he found out, was to go to university,

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Speaker 3: do do a degree in finance, join a finance company.

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Speaker 3: In a couple of years, you'll be a millionaire, and

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Speaker 3: he was. He said, what mays was that he wasn't happy.

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Speaker 3: And he realized that. He started doing surveys of people

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Speaker 3: from ex mergerers to barbers to individuals and ask them

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Speaker 3: what makes people happy and one, and he came up

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Speaker 3: with a set of ideas about what makes people happy.

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Speaker 3: And the idea is to try and get your life

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Speaker 3: to take care of these different elements. But he hasn't

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Speaker 3: got the He doesn't make the mistake of talking about

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Speaker 3: work life balance. Balance is a technical as an engineering term.

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Speaker 3: It's got nothing to do with my life when I

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Speaker 3: when I'm when I'm young and beginning a career, I

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Speaker 3: have to spend much much more time in the office

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Speaker 3: than I have to do later on. What he does

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Speaker 3: do is he focuses on the things that really will

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Speaker 3: make a difference, and that that's time, your social life,

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Speaker 3: your your material wealth, your physical your physical well being

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Speaker 3: and your material conditions, and of course your financial situations.

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Speaker 3: And he talks about calibrating all those things. There's one

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Speaker 3: image that I liked very very much in his book.

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Speaker 3: He talked about his father was a university professor and

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Speaker 3: he was flying across the country with his father. He says,

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Speaker 3: right through out the elevenar trip, whatever it was, his

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Speaker 3: father was reading and making notes and he said, Dad,

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Speaker 3: you haven't even watched a single movie. He says, I

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Speaker 3: work like this. I can take you on holidays with

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Speaker 3: me when I go, and I think we need to

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Speaker 3: understand that. And he also has another compelling image. He says,

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Speaker 3: who's going to be in the front row of your

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Speaker 3: at your funeral? And he says, you've got to see

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Speaker 3: that you spend the right quality time with the people

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Speaker 3: who are likely to be in the front row. And

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Speaker 3: then scarce scarce parents scared me too that when your children,

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Speaker 3: you've got about thirteen years of children, then you don't

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Speaker 3: have them anymore. And for the first thirteen years of

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Speaker 3: your life you're probably the most important, largest and strongest

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Speaker 3: man in the block. But by the time they get

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Speaker 3: to thirteen, you don't count, and all you are is

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Speaker 3: a hotelier and the chauffeur. I think getting all these

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Speaker 3: getting all these things into into context, I felt a

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Speaker 3: was a very very nice idea and it's a good

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Speaker 3: thing to read.

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Speaker 2: Iverydament Ian man. They're the managing director of Gateways Business Consultants.

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Speaker 2: Looking at his top business books for twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: Of you consider where we are, the number of transitions

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Speaker 2: we're in the middle of, I think it's quite an

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Speaker 2: interesting time to write a book. Actually, seven notes the

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Speaker 2: best of the Money Show from this week on how

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Speaker 2: I Make My Money. This week, the chef Peter Templehoff

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Speaker 2: spoke about his career, how he became the first South

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Speaker 2: African chef to receive the Three Knives Award at the

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Speaker 2: Best Chef's Award, and the inspiration behind his fine dining experiences.

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Speaker 2: That's fyn he does something with food that very few

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Speaker 2: other people are able to do. Here's the Chef, Peter Templehuff.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Stephen, thanks, got to be very nice to chat

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Speaker 4: to you.

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Speaker 2: I have to start with a factual question. Is it true,

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Speaker 2: is that you started out by studying economics.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I did a lot of things. I was as

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Speaker 4: I wasn't an economist, but I studied economerce University. It

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Speaker 4: wasn't my thing. And then I went into all sorts

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Speaker 4: of different careers and tree felling and carpentry and home

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Speaker 4: building and sales, selling things and you name it, until

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Speaker 4: I found my thing. When I was a ripe old

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Speaker 4: age of twenty seven.

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Speaker 2: Where were you when all this was happening? You from

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Speaker 2: Cape Town?

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Speaker 4: No? No, I was born in the States. I moved

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Speaker 4: here when I was one. I lived in Joelburg for

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Speaker 4: a bit, and then I moved down to derbys where

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Speaker 4: I went to high school and university, and so some

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Speaker 4: of it happened in Durban. Then I went across to

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Speaker 4: the States and I worked in Texas for bits, and

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Speaker 4: then I came home, and in nineteen ninety six I

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Speaker 4: decided to start cooking in the Cape. So I've been

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Speaker 4: here kind of ever since. So this is my home,

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Speaker 4: this roban longest.

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Speaker 2: No sure why cooking. I mean, was there something that

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Speaker 2: dragged you to it? Was there you met someone's mate

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Speaker 2: to did something and you thought, wow, did something else happened?

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Speaker 4: No, I think I've always had an inkling for it.

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Speaker 4: You know, my mom rest results. She was not the

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Speaker 4: greatest of cooks. I used to spend a lot of

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Speaker 4: my time fixing her dinners up and throwing a handful

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Speaker 4: of olives and this, and it's a pinch of herbs

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Speaker 4: and that and chops of ham and another thing. And

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Speaker 4: I didn't realize until hours later in my career, when

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Speaker 4: I was kind of just doing nothing that really inspired me.

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Speaker 4: That my mom's best friend actually said, listen, why don't

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Speaker 4: you cook? I can see how much you love it?

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Speaker 4: And that was it and I haven't looked back since.

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Speaker 2: So from quite a young age. I mean, how old

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Speaker 2: were you when you first started messing with your mom's cooking?

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Speaker 2: How old were you when you first sort of found

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Speaker 2: it interesting and we're adding your own things to it?

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Speaker 4: I remember as yes, as far as I can remember,

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Speaker 4: actually used to get stuck in my grandma's kitchen. She

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Speaker 4: lived in Delmas, and she used to put on these

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Speaker 4: elaborate dinners. I was always in there, interested as a

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Speaker 4: six year old with a five six year old, and

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Speaker 4: then I just kind of grew as with my dad

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Speaker 4: make an apricol jam every summer and Linden and you know,

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Speaker 4: it's just I didn't realize it until I started cooking,

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Speaker 4: that I had an interest in it.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's funny. I mean, sometimes something stirs you. I

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Speaker 2: suppose so you go and study. I have no idea

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Speaker 2: how you study to be a chef, but I presume

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Speaker 2: it involves a lot of time in a kitchen.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I came here to Bonn Hook to stell a bosh,

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Speaker 4: and it is one year of intensive like classes and

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Speaker 4: they try and teach you as much as they can

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Speaker 4: and cram it in a year, and then it's another

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Speaker 4: year of practical kitchens where you spend a block of

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Speaker 4: three months in different kitchens. And it's still the same today.

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Speaker 4: This is what they seems to do for a two

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Speaker 4: year course and three years a bit more specialized. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: it was an inspiring time for me. And you know,

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Speaker 4: because I was a bit older as twenty six or

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Speaker 4: twenty seven, I took it a lot more quicker because

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Speaker 4: I knew this was my last chance. Like I think

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Speaker 4: a lot of Jeffs realize that, you know, this is

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Speaker 4: they try a lot of things and they kind of

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Speaker 4: end up cooking and it's something that you can actually

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Speaker 4: do well from then. I realize that afterwards.

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Speaker 2: So when you were learning, I mean, I still have

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Speaker 2: people in the back of my mind sometimes when I'm

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Speaker 2: making a journalistic conversation, I think, what would this person say,

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Speaker 2: what would they do? Were they were they sort of

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Speaker 2: were they people like that from where you were learning,

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Speaker 2: or did you actually quite quickly think no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I can I can do this differently? I mean, I'm

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Speaker 2: really looking for sort of some of your career influences

434
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 2: when you were starting out, because I know, I know

435
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,880
Speaker 2: there would have been people who have influenced you later,

436
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 2: but when he was starting out with a particular people

437
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:29,360
Speaker 2: who played a role.

438
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I said, my mom's best friend was the

439
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 4: one who kind of looked at spark and she you know,

440
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 4: she was from Denmark and she used to cook these

441
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 4: elaborate lunches and dinners at her place. And because I

442
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 4: love and her are such good friends, I used to

443
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 4: go there quite often. So she was definitely she's pastorations,

444
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 4: but she was definitely an inspiration. And then you know,

445
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 4: in training, and there was my first year I went

446
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 4: to go eat my first year of training, I went

447
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 4: to eat at the Grand Russia. Tell her a friend,

448
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 4: chef named Raymond Blanc. He was here cooking. He was

449
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 4: doing a cooking show and he was actual cooking a

450
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 4: meal there that night. I managed to get a seat

451
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 4: for it, and right then the penny kind of dropped

452
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 4: and I realized, after tasting his food and just looking

453
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,439
Speaker 4: at creative was that this is the right move for me.

454
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 4: And I was happy that I made that choice. And yeah,

455
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 4: well since then, you know, guys like Mark Up You're

456
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 4: White has been inspirational. He's the godfather of modern English cuisine.

457
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 4: And I actually worked for him my first job in London,

458
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 4: which is also amazing. And then I was just building,

459
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 4: building upon your career. Good places. The next place you

460
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 4: go to the must always be better, That's what That's

461
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 4: the stance I took, and never wanted to go backwards,

462
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 4: never wanted to settle, even took a job. I left

463
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 4: market peer White's restaurant as a Sioux chef, and I

464
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 4: said I wasn't ready. I took two steps back as

465
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 4: a chef to party just so I could learn more.

466
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 4: And I actually worked for free for three months in London.

467
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 4: They all thought it won the lottery.

468
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure. So just tell me how that works

469
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 2: when you're climbing I mean sort of the ladder. I

470
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 2: don't know if that's the right phrase, but how do

471
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 2: you how do you get a gig at my? I

472
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: could be a White in the first place. I mean,

473
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: did someone from sennbarsh have to write a letter of recommendation?

474
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 2: Did you have to hang around and wait for the

475
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: great man himself to come out and say, look, I'm

476
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: really good.

477
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 4: You know now at that stage she was opening a

478
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 4: lot of rest She was opening a lot of restaurants.

479
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 4: And I happened to be working in my sister's bar

480
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 4: in a crouch end in London, just doing some odd

481
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 4: bar snacks and I was working illegally. She was paying

482
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 4: me by cash. And I knew I wanted to work

483
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 4: in a kidschen, I just didn't know how. And a

484
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 4: bartender there was good friends with the headshift at the

485
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 4: restaurant and he said, okay, come just come into a trial.

486
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 4: And I did a trial and I just loved it.

487
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 4: Come the day one and he said, listen, don't worry

488
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 4: about the visa. We'll make a plan for you. And

489
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 4: back then the restaurants could apply for visas for you,

490
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 4: and so they applied for the visa and then they

491
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 4: stopped playing me cash made me legally for a while.

492
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's how I started. And then from there

493
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 4: I went to go work in another mischelonin star restaurant

494
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 4: and then which was an English one, which was a

495
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 4: great one. And then from there I went to work

496
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 4: for Locatelli, who was in Italian one star restaurants. Never

497
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 4: wanted to go below one star wherever I worked and

498
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 4: I paid dividends, you know, and I can not recommend

499
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 4: I highly enough that the youngsters of today just do that.

500
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 4: Keep looking for don't look for the paycheck. That stage.

501
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you're in a kitchen like that, How important

502
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 2: does the personality of the sort of head chef matter?

503
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: Are they very different from kitchen to kitchen because of that,

504
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 2: or are they actually quite similar because there's a way

505
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 2: to do these things.

506
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 4: Well, they are and they aren't. They all have their

507
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 4: own personality. But it was always very regimental. Everything is

508
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 4: done very militarily, so there's this hierarchy and you've just

509
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 4: got to earn your stripes and get your get yourself

510
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,239
Speaker 4: up that ladder. And the young ones when they come

511
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,719
Speaker 4: into the kitchen, they're or they're always abused, just like

512
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 4: any youngster that comes into the military. They take abuse.

513
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 4: They want to see how hard they are and how

514
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 4: how how they can mold these new young chefs. And

515
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 4: it's still like that today, maybe not as as angry,

516
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 4: because back then in the nineties, there used to be

517
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 4: some a lot of words turned around, a lot of use.

518
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 4: But things have kind of become a little a little

519
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 4: bit easier to work in those conditions nowadays.

520
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we've all seen the sort of

521
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 2: documentaries and the reality TV and this and the that,

522
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: but swearing did seem to be a part of it.

523
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: And I wondered if there's something about cooking that maybe

524
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 2: late to more swearing. It's hard, you're working in a

525
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: difficult environment. Mistakes cost money, the ingredients matter, I mean,

526
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 2: is there something to that.

527
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 4: Oh, definitely, definitely. When you get tired, you get emotional,

528
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 4: when you get emotional pressures on and you're going to

529
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 4: pressurize from above. Yeah, it happens. It's just a natural

530
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 4: thing that we do. And unfortunately it's hard to hold

531
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 4: back sometimes, especially when you're tired. You're doing you know,

532
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 4: it's your third or fourth double in a row, and

533
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 4: you're doing the hours in this ninety five hour week,

534
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 4: and you know everybody's shouting at you. You're going to

535
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 4: You're going to crack. It's not an easy industry, not

536
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 4: at all. It's like one of the toughest industries to

537
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 4: manage it. And you just got to restrong world, and

538
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 4: you're going to have determination that you're going to push

539
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 4: through and this guy is not going to get the

540
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 4: better of you. No, matter what. It's easy just to

541
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 4: retaliate and lose your job and try to find another job.

542
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 4: And you know that's not the right way to do.

543
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 4: It's just bite your tongue and push through. You know,

544
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 4: you cut your finger, just wrap it up and carry

545
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,719
Speaker 4: on in a blue plast You got in their respect.

546
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 4: That's the most important thing.

547
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, get stuff done. When you are working like that,

548
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 2: and when you're leading a kitchen, Peter, and it's a

549
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 2: long shift and there's lots of difficulty, how do you

550
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 2: feel at the end of the day. Obviously tired, I

551
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 2: mean I would expect that, but is it so rewarding

552
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 2: Do you think, sure I got that, I nailed that,

553
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 2: or that worked out, or the kitchen did well here today, Steven.

554
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 4: The feeling is absolutely addictive. It's this blood rushes through you.

555
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 4: You feel you've accomplished something so great, and because you

556
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 4: realize how tough it is. When you actually the first

557
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 4: out did my solid service in on my own, you know,

558
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 4: a really high pressure kitchen, I just felt like I

559
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 4: always feel like you're related, and that's it's addictive, and

560
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 4: people go back for that and you get there, you

561
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 4: get this rush from the service which you don't get

562
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 4: from anything else except sports. I imagine you get the

563
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 4: same kind of rush. But yeah, no, it's very addictive,

564
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 4: and it's to get to that level, it's very extremely satisfying.

565
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 4: So I think that's what people just keep going back to,

566
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 4: keep getting up every morning for.

567
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 2: When you're leading a kitchen like that, how important is

568
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 2: it to have the people around you, so the people

569
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 2: you're working with, your staff, who you can trust with

570
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: the food. I mean, you obviously need to know that

571
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: they're upward, that they're at the right standard. And I

572
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: always thought, you know, particularly as restaurants, I suppose like yours,

573
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: but others and really rely on the chef's reputation. The

574
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 2: chef's reputation really relies on the restaurants and everybody else do.

575
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, especially when you've got multiple restaurants like Idea,

576
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 4: it's so important to completely rely on the guy next

577
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 4: to you, the guy underneath him, and then then so on,

578
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 4: and it's Yeah, to inspire them is the trick to

579
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 4: keep them wanting to do amazing food for you all

580
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 4: the time. That is the secret. I think you have

581
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 4: to keep the guys inspired, keep them paid well, keep

582
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 4: them keep them fresh as well. We've adopted a four

583
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 4: to three day week for the guys because it does

584
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 4: get tiring. So they're three days off and four days on.

585
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 4: And of those four days they got to work at

586
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 4: least three doubles, so that's you know, twelve hours and

587
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 4: a double US thirty six and they work another half

588
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 4: a half day somewhere, so they do get the time back.

589
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 4: And that's how you got to do it. You just

590
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 4: got to keep them motivated around you and comfortable and

591
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 4: keep food on the table plus them.

592
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, have they been any particular big trends while you've

593
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: been in the food business, of the culinary business, I

594
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: shouldcord it. Do you see certain trends coming? I mean,

595
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: do you see them sort of being big and maybe

596
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: in Britain in the nineties and London and not so

597
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 2: big anymore. Different types of food, different ways of plating,

598
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: the size of portions. I think that seems from what

599
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 2: I from what I read, that's been a big change

600
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: of the last ten years.

601
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, Novell Cuisine brought along the tasting menus

602
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 4: and that was inspired from Japanese kaiseke, So it's not

603
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 4: a new thing. It's been around a long time. Just

604
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 4: not here, but I think there is a big shift

605
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 4: away from long course menus, so tasting in the restaurants.

606
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 4: People like choice, but I understand there's always going to

607
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 4: be tasting in a restaurant. We've got one fine as

608
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 4: a tasting in a restaurant because you know, we've got

609
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 4: a story to tell there and we want people to

610
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 4: experience the journey that we want to want want them

611
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 4: on for the evening. But the other restaurants are Oli Karte.

612
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 4: You know, we've really decided that we could have done

613
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 4: another tasting menu restaurant at param where we just opened.

614
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 4: I thought, you know what, people people want bigger course,

615
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 4: bigger portions. They want to choose what they want to eat.

616
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 4: If they want to come in for one course, they're

617
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 4: welcome to. I think that is a big shift. And

618
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 4: also there's a shift towards more natural, natural cooking, lighter

619
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 4: cooking using a lot of olive oils, and I mean

620
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 4: that's been around for fifteen years now. But there's a

621
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 4: big push towards natural meat as well, very clean meats,

622
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 4: and it's a big push also away from I've noticed

623
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 4: a lot less vegans and vegetarians coming through the doors.

624
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 4: Actually I'm not sure why that is, but you know, five, six,

625
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 4: seven years ago, there is a lot of vegetarians and

626
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 4: vegans coming through and a lot of there's also a

627
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 4: lot of gluten allergies that we're coming through. But it's

628
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 4: kind of lighted up now recently, which I'm not sure when.

629
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 4: Maybe it's a better quality grain while there's less gluten issues. Yeah,

630
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 4: I'm not sure people are realizing the protein's important.

631
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, interesting, Sure, I have no idea.

632
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 4: The first I've heard of it.

633
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: Well, Peter temple Off there talking us through his career

634
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: from where it started to how it ended, how it's

635
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: still going, earning the prestigious Three Knives Award to because

636
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: of his unforgettable dining experiences that he's able to create.

637
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: Seven you will.

638
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: Listen to the Money Shows the best bids.

639
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: In our Business unusual segment this week. Graham Quadrington, lead

640
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: researcher at tomorrow Today's Futures Institute, discussing some of the

641
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: sporting events we're going to see next year, but particularly

642
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: looking at the world's first enhanced Games. These are games

643
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: sporting competitions in which you're allowed to literally take performance

644
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: enhancing drugs. Graham Codrington had some interesting thoughts on that.

645
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 5: Well. I thought that as we got to the end

646
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 5: of the year we could just do something a little

647
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 5: bit different from a business perspective. But I find this

648
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 5: exceptionally interesting. We've got all sorts of major sporting events

649
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 5: coming up, obviously football World Cup headlining next year. But

650
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 5: I spotted a group of people in Las Vegas who

651
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 5: are putting together in May twenty twenty six something called

652
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 5: the Enhanced Games. It's just a few sprints one hundred

653
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 5: meters two hundred meters in swimming as well also a

654
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 5: few of those and in a bit of powerlifting, so

655
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 5: it's not a massive Olympic sport. But he has the

656
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 5: secret source and source, I suppose is what it is,

657
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 5: because what they are saying is you can take any

658
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 5: drugs you like, nothing that is illegal, so it must

659
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 5: be something that you can technically get, but it is

660
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 5: you know, illegal for any sports person to have taken

661
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 5: in the past. And the point behind this is to say,

662
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 5: every sports event is looking to see how far you

663
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 5: can push the human body, you know, further, faster, higher,

664
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 5: whatever it is, and why not do it enhanced by

665
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 5: science and allow people who are prepared to do whatever

666
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 5: that does to somebody's body, allow them to do it

667
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 5: to themselves and see what happened. And there's a lot

668
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 5: of money behind it. It looks like it's going to

669
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 5: grab a lot of interest globally, and I must be

670
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 5: honest as a sports fan, as long as it's declared.

671
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 5: I wouldn't want drugs to come into other sports, but

672
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 5: if there's a drug filled sports event, I'd probably pay

673
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 5: to watch it.

674
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: I suppose the question is why, because I think what

675
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: we think of is what we want in a contest,

676
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: is we want it to be fair. You want to rope.

677
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: You know, you hate it when the ref is biased

678
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 2: in a football match. I mean you lose your mind.

679
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 2: Even if you're on the winning side of that, you

680
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: don't you don't like it. So I suppose the attraction

681
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: would be are we going to get human stories out

682
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 2: of it, because that's what really sells these things, And

683
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: are we going to see much better performances? And in

684
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: this world of athletics, we're talking, you know, microseconds.

685
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 5: I suppose that's the question, right, And until you give

686
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 5: it a go, you don't know. And I think that's

687
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 5: at least the promoters are. That's the way. They approaching

688
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 5: it right, so they're not trying to say all sports

689
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 5: should go this way, and I think part of that

690
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 5: is for fairness. But then having said that, Steven, I

691
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 5: think you and I both, if we could, we might

692
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 5: have been professional sports people. I know you have.

693
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 2: Sports back call for the box.

694
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, exactly exactly. If they need me, I'll do

695
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 5: it right. But it's not fair that I was born

696
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 5: without the genetics to do that. So fairness is an

697
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 5: interesting gray area to start with. Those who have heightened

698
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 5: weight advantages or muscle density advantages. Yes, of course there's

699
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 5: years and years of discipline and everything else that goes

700
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 5: on top of that, but that underlying genetic advantage is

701
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 5: there to start with, and it's not fair. So if

702
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 5: it isn't fair, why don't we Why don't we just

703
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 5: have another category, not a category that overtakes the existing categories,

704
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 5: but another cat of people who say, well, let's see

705
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:08,479
Speaker 5: what my genetic inheritance and my discipline and a little

706
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 5: bit of science and chemicals and everything else can can do.

707
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 5: And I would suggest that by the end of this

708
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 5: decade we'll probably see the robotic enhanced games in addition

709
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 5: to that, because again I would pay to see somebody

710
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 5: strap on, you know, an exoskeleton and you know, jump

711
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 5: thirty meters in the air or you know, maybe jetpack

712
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 5: around the stadium instead of run. So I do think

713
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 5: that this is something which opens some interesting new sporting

714
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 5: opportunities and maybe that's the way to think about it best.

715
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:48,280
Speaker 5: These are new sports rather than sort of us drugging.

716
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: Up the old sports.

717
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 2: So if you look at football players as a great

718
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 2: as a good example both here and say in the

719
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 2: in the Premier League, by which I mean in the UK,

720
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:03,320
Speaker 2: you obviously you end up up measuring them on certain things. Right,

721
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: So obviously its goals and that, But what you're actually

722
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 2: measuring are their genetic ability, So are they good with

723
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: their feet, You're measuring their fitness. You're measuring where they

724
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 2: were born and whether they were scouted early and whether

725
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 2: they started classes. I mean, if you look at Beckham

726
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: from when was he three younger than that or was

727
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 2: it too late? Was it only four or five? You're

728
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: also I would argue, measuring so to your point the

729
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 2: desire to win, how far will you go? And I

730
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: mean in many societies, including our own in particular, it's

731
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: the sort of Football's a way out of your reality

732
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 2: into something else, right, So people have that strong desire

733
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: and you could argue that's why the spring Bocks will

734
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,479
Speaker 2: win World Cups. So if you put all of those

735
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 2: things together, how far are you prepared to go to win? Well,

736
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: then obviously someone who's prepared to take a drug is

737
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: willing to go further, and why not them?

738
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 5: And I suppose this is where there will be some

739
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 5: form of ethical conversation, because we want to look after

740
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 5: other human beings. We don't want anybody to put themselves

741
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 5: in a situation where they are destroying themselves for the

742
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 5: sake of some achievement. But then, you know, I look

743
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 5: at some of the top sportsmen in the world right now,

744
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 5: and let's assume that they are all drug free, because

745
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 5: they get tested so regularly. They push themselves beyond what

746
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 5: I would think a human being can be pushed, and

747
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 5: you know, in their forties and fifties, I'm sure they

748
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 5: pay the price for it. And you know, every time

749
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 5: I watch one of these rugby games these days, with

750
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 5: the brutality of modern rugby in particular, I mean, that's

751
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 5: got to feel sore. When you're fifty five years old,

752
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 5: you know, twenty years after your retirement, you're still got

753
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 5: to feel every one of those crunching tackles. So I

754
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 5: think that even without this enhancement, people are pushing themselves

755
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 5: maybe beyond what the human body is capable of. All

756
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 5: you're doing now is you're adding a chemical that helps

757
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 5: you to go just that extra step further, and I

758
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 5: honestly am fascinated to see what it can do.

759
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: It's also not the first time it's happened. I'm doing

760
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: all of this from memory. I haven't gone to check it,

761
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: but if I recall there were for a very long time,

762
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: it might still be a very large number of women's

763
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 2: athletics records held by East German Yes, from the nineteen eighties.

764
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 2: I'm presuming that happened yet to be broken, and we

765
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 2: all know why because they were given something that were

766
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: given I'm presuming something similar to testosterone or something like that.

767
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: And so, in a strange way, history is actually repeating itself. Yeah,

768
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,919
Speaker 2: except that this is fairer because you know it's happening.

769
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 5: And it's declared, and it's open and it's and it's

770
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 5: above board. I suppose in that sense above and for me,

771
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 5: as I look ahead to my sporting year in twenty

772
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 5: twenty six. This isn't going to be the highlight the

773
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 5: enhanced things, but I am going to watch it with

774
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 5: a little bit of interest. It's something different and I'm

775
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 5: sure the business case behind it is what's really driving it.

776
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 5: There's a lot of money at stake, twenty five million

777
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 5: dollars in prize money for people who prepare to put

778
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 5: their bodies at risk. But I'm sure we'll see a

779
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 5: lot of it on our socials and around the place

780
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 5: in the media. It's a huge story.

781
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 2: I think Graham Quadrington there looking at what's happening with

782
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 2: the world of sport and how enhancement is going to

783
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: be the name of the game at the Enhanced Games

784
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 2: next year.

785
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: The Best of the Money Show and seven.

786
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 2: Two on shapeshifter This week we profiled Lee Nike, the

787
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 2: CEO of Trance Union Africa, a really interesting conversation about

788
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 2: growing up in Chatsworth, about where the drive to succeed

789
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: came from, the lucky access he was able to have

790
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,479
Speaker 2: to some computers and what that has meant for him

791
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 2: and how it's all played out in his career as

792
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: an adult.

793
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 6: They actually grew up in Chatsworth in Durban in South Africa.

794
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 6: So I actually grew up there and I moved to

795
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 6: Johannesburg when I got my first job back with Anderson Consulting.

796
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: What kind of community were you growing up in? I mean,

797
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: Chatsworth has a particular history in South Africa, particularly in

798
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 2: Ettequini in Durban. And what kind of family were you

799
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 2: coming from? What were you thinking of doing as you

800
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 2: were growing up?

801
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 6: Well, it's a really good and complex questions even I

802
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 6: guess the first thing to say is that I grew

803
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 6: up in quite an impoverished community in Chatsworth, like many

804
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 6: townships in apartheid South Africa, and I grew up in

805
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 6: a time of aparthe eight. So that's the first point.

806
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 6: The second point is that if you grew up in

807
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 6: a tough neighborhood where crime poverty is an extreme, it

808
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 6: typically falls to the mother in your house or to

809
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 6: keep you on the straight and arrow. So my house

810
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 6: was quite a regiment of going to school, doing his

811
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 6: studies and keeping out of mischief, and in the end

812
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 6: you end up becoming a lot academically stronger. And now

813
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 6: always remember my mom keeping us in that straight and narrow,

814
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 6: and her big view was the only way to break

815
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 6: out of your circumstance of being grown up in poverty

816
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 6: is to study and hope that you'll get a scholarship

817
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 6: to go on to university. She did something quite interesting, Stephen.

818
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 6: I grew up in a time of no heroes. So

819
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 6: born in nineteen seventy six, which is an important here

820
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 6: in our history, graduating from high school in ninety four

821
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 6: important here in our democracy. But when I was growing up,

822
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 6: we actually didn't know any hero So any person that

823
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 6: was your role model was your mom, and in my case,

824
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 6: your mom kind of reminded you the consequences of not

825
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 6: studying and working hard was ending up in the township

826
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 6: and never breaking out of the potential that you may

827
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 6: see in yourself. So that allowed me, Stephen, to break

828
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 6: out and actually obtain a scholarship to go onto university,

829
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 6: without which we will to have been able to afford

830
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,240
Speaker 6: to fund my further studies.

831
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 2: I was thinking about that time, and there's just a

832
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 2: one year's age difference between you and I. I'm slightly older,

833
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 2: and I was lucky enough from my teenage years because

834
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: of the very different suburbs that I grew up in.

835
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: My father had a personal computer at home, and while

836
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: I never really thought of going into it, I was

837
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 2: lucky enough to play around with it. I mean, what

838
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: else are you going to do while he's at work?

839
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 4: Right?

840
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 2: And I was thinking about how difficult it must have

841
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 2: been to go from Chatsworth to Straighten too computer science,

842
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 2: when I mentioned the opportunities for you to do the

843
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: same were incredibly limited.

844
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 6: Well, it's really interesting and I'll tell you a story

845
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 6: that very few people don't know about me. So when

846
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 6: I was in Grade three or Standard one, as you

847
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 6: and I both would know from our childhoods, I had

848
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 6: the chance when computers were first introduced to the teachers

849
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 6: of Chatsworth. This is literally in the foremost years of

850
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 6: our schooling careers, and I guess I was smarter than

851
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 6: a lot of kids in my school. But I remember

852
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,479
Speaker 6: a very specific day back in Standard one or grade three,

853
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 6: where a minibus taxi picked up kids from all the

854
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 6: schools in Chatsworth and bust us over to the chats

855
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,439
Speaker 6: With Teachers Training Center and seven for the first time

856
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 6: in my life, I saw this thing that was called

857
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 6: a computer, something that you were familiar with, I guess,

858
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 6: but it was this, you know, this big monster for

859
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 6: monochrome on it with black and green. And more interestingly,

860
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 6: they had shown us a teaching tool called a logo robot.

861
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 2: I was going to say, surely, tell me it was logo.

862
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 4: I remember it so absolutely.

863
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 6: So we had a logo robot on the floor. And

864
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 6: this is a person that you know, we barely had

865
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 6: enough to make ends meet, and school was walking to

866
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,959
Speaker 6: school every day and all we did was what we did.

867
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 6: So for this one day, Stephen, we got to on

868
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 6: a weekend go after the teacher's training center and we

869
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 6: got to type in, you know, left command five steps forward,

870
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 6: and we had the logo robot moved.

871
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 1: On the floor.

872
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 6: And that's interesting because that was a Grade three. The

873
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 6: first time I owned an actual computer was my final

874
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 6: year of university. But back then INSIDID one, I saw

875
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 6: something And it's interesting because it's such an early stage

876
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 6: of my career, but it felt like something different to

877
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 6: everything else I knew in my community, where they were

878
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 6: no role models you had access to or saw, and

879
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 6: that kind of shaped my folks and listening to my

880
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 6: mom focusing on math and taking up many opportunities. And

881
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 6: then if I fast tracked that story, when the neighborhood

882
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 6: I grew up and it's called Bayview in Chatsworth. And

883
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,399
Speaker 6: back then, you may remember, we had no suburb names.

884
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 6: We actually had numbers. I grew up in unit to Chatsworth,

885
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 6: and when we first had libraries, at some point we

886
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 6: read so many books a week that I stumbled upon

887
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 6: programming language books. And I had learned to program with

888
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 6: a bunch of other kids on piece of paper. And

889
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 6: my mom, being the stal wart she was she and

890
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 6: she's a both my parents dropped out of high school

891
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 6: to look after their own families. She went off to

892
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 6: the high school one year and said, the high school teachers,

893
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 6: you guys have computers. These boys want access to them.

894
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 6: And so I had access, you know, to computers in

895
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 6: my high school. And then I went on to study

896
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 6: computer science. For the time I got onto, I guess

897
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 6: study at eight or grade ten, when you could choose subjects.

898
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 6: So I guess I had that signal amongst the noise,

899
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 6: this could be different. And I followed this part not

900
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 6: knowing where it'll take me. And for whatever reason, by

901
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 6: backing that pathway, I ended up right now. Chatt and

902
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,320
Speaker 6: Stephen Curtis on Shape Shifters.

903
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: So you study at UKs it in and I was

904
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 2: trying to put the numbers together without missing five steps.

905
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 2: But it seemed that you went from studying so literally

906
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: quite a big position at Arthur Anderson, then literally managing

907
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 2: director for IT Strategy and Transformation. I mean, no matter

908
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 2: how you di SID, you must have been doing that

909
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: at a very young age.

910
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 6: Well, I guess when you spend nineteen years in one company,

911
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 6: you kind of can't cover the entire thing in your

912
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 6: LinkedIn resume. But it's actually interesting story, Stevens. I mentioned

913
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 6: briefly that if I hadn't gotten a scholarship, I wouldn't

914
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 6: have gotten to university, and it so happened that I'd

915
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 6: gotten a Telecom scholarship for computer science to go to

916
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 6: UKs at n at the time. And it's interesting that

917
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 6: my final year of university I had the chance to

918
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 6: do vacation work at Telecom in their Durban offices. And

919
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 6: as you well know, head office is pretorious, so you

920
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 6: didn't get much chance to experiment and see what potential

921
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 6: there was. And after having done all this work to

922
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 6: break out of my circumstances in Chatsworth, it didn't feel

923
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 6: like being a developer was the way forward, and It's

924
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 6: interesting that when the companies do the university wroachhows you

925
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 6: as you'd remember in our final years of UNI, you

926
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 6: get to see what these guys have to offer. And

927
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 6: very similar to Harry Kellen, that actually was with Arthur

928
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 6: Anderson in your show. A couple of weeks ago, I

929
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 6: joined the sister company called Anderson Consulting, which is the

930
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 6: opposite of the tax and accounting business in that nineteen

931
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 6: ninety eight time frame. So and I started my career

932
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 6: not in strategy, actually started my career in deep technology.

933
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 6: When I started, we're still the earliest part of our democracy,

934
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 6: and as a technology guy, I got to work on

935
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 6: the codest things ever, Stephen. So my first project, for example,

936
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 6: was to help build the IEC that delivered the nineteen

937
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 6: ninety nine elections. Nineteen ninety four was kind of put

938
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,359
Speaker 6: together quite rapidly to deliver the elections, but nineteen ninety

939
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 6: nine we created e democracy. I went from there to

940
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 6: work for doctor Padilo Hotler as a youngster twenty two

941
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 6: to twenty three years of age, under many senior people,

942
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,399
Speaker 6: but I got to work on Census two thousand and one.

943
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 6: In regard as a youngster, I got to see democracy

944
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 6: come to life in a world where technology was enabling

945
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 6: us to see our potential and its earliest phases. And

946
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 6: then as you called out on my LinkedIn, I got

947
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 6: to then move from being in deep technology to see

948
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 6: the value of technology in solving business and governmental problems.

949
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 6: And I was asked to head up IT strategy, probably

950
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 6: around eight years into my career, very very young, so

951
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 6: I was one of the youngest partners at thirty one

952
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 6: to make partner at Accentia.

953
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 2: As you talk sort of remembering my own memories of

954
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 2: that time, and there were several big transitions. There was

955
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 2: the transition from the end of democracy, the end of

956
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 2: a party to democracy at the transition, and then the

957
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 2: beginnings of transformation. But there were also very important technological changes.

958
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: So cell phones had come in, the use of it

959
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 2: was exploding. Suddenly everybody was getting into it, and cell

960
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 2: phones then we're probably what we think of AI. Now

961
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:07,439
Speaker 2: you know something that's going to change everything. The late

962
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 2: nineties were also quite an optimistic time leading up to

963
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 2: the sort of dot com boom. It must have been

964
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 2: the most amazing time to be a young person in

965
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 2: that field. The opportunities would have been huge to people

966
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 2: older than you didn't understand it. I mean, I'm guessing here,

967
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: and suddenly there must have been an opportunity.

968
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 6: Well, listen, there was ridiculous amounts of opportunity back in

969
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety eight when we had gotten this deal to

970
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 6: help government build the elections. It is a time when

971
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 6: the likes of bull Gates that sponsored the software to

972
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 6: build elections are the big tech firms wanted to help

973
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,360
Speaker 6: us realize our democracy and it was fascinating. People always

974
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 6: think that technology needs like fast lines to run on.

975
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 6: You'd be surprised that to deliver the nineteen ninety nine

976
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 6: elections we actually ran on a one kse speed, not

977
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,800
Speaker 6: a one gigabyte line one case speed, using a VS

978
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 6: satellite technolog because in nineteen eighty nine we didn't connect

979
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 6: South Africa. Even today we're not connected. We have such

980
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 6: a group for growth in terms of coverage of technology,

981
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 6: but back in nineteen ninety eight and nineteen eighty nine,

982
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 6: the one thing we did have was a low orbit

983
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 6: vset technology covering the country and we actually use that

984
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 6: to build the first elections for or the second elections.

985
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 6: But the first technology enabled one in nineteen ninety nine,

986
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 6: So in terms of pulling that off. It was so

987
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 6: fascinating that we had we had countries come visit the

988
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 6: election center where universities come and see things that had

989
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 6: never ever been done in our country. So you're right,

990
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 6: as a youngster literally at twenty one and twenty two,

991
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 6: you start and see things that had never ever been

992
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 6: done in this country before, and you got to showcase

993
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 6: that to other people that only read the theory of

994
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 6: what was possible. So absolutely fascinating time to be alive

995
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 6: and to be an active part of our early democracy.

996
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 2: When you are making decisions, now, does that time inform

997
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 2: you your think because you've seen how quickly things can change.

998
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 2: The thing about that time was that because so much

999
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 2: was changing, you could actually institute a new system. A

1000
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: young person could come along and say you can do

1001
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: it better, and you would be allowed to. Now we

1002
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: don't have that moment. Now we have systems in place,

1003
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 2: and so to change things is much harder. So does

1004
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: that time still inform how you make decisions now when

1005
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 2: you're running a company.

1006
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 6: I think it does. Stephen, One of the things that

1007
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 6: I think most leaders try to focus on is how

1008
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 6: to align the entire business on a bigger purpose where

1009
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 6: we talk about the bigger purpose, and I talk about

1010
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 6: solving problems that matter. And when I close my eyes

1011
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 6: as a CEO, I don't think of the revenue and

1012
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 6: the margin. I think of a better life for all

1013
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 6: our people. I think about growing up in an RDP

1014
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 6: house in Chatswood and sleeping on the floor. So I

1015
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 6: have that context that keeps me firm on regardless of

1016
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 6: your tribulation or the challenge you're going through, how do

1017
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 6: we see beyond the challenge? So the first thing is

1018
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 6: to do you personally believe in what you're doing, and

1019
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,399
Speaker 6: if you can, then actually very few challenges would come

1020
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 6: your way. And as a newcomer to this TransUnion business.

1021
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 6: And it's interesting the way you introduced our business. We've

1022
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,399
Speaker 6: been around for one hundred and twenty four years. When

1023
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 6: I arrived nine years ago. Well, they were there already

1024
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 6: before I got there, So LENI wasn't going to come

1025
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 6: in and give them a miraculous cure to all their ailments.

1026
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 6: I had to find a way to get people to

1027
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 6: bind that journey. I had to find a way to

1028
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,959
Speaker 6: appreciate that. Unlike in the world of consulting and big

1029
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 6: tech change, you can't change everything so starting to realize

1030
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 6: what cards you've been dealt and working with those cards

1031
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 6: where they physically technological pieces of the people that work

1032
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 6: in the organization. CEOs create a recipiece for success using

1033
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 6: what you have at your disposal, because big bowl change

1034
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 6: isn't something you can afford to do from a cost perspective,

1035
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 6: or may have the time to do given times to horizons.

1036
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 2: Lee And when I look to the world ahead, and

1037
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 2: we've been talking a lot about it and that technology,

1038
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 2: I see a lot of future. I think AI has

1039
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 2: a lot of future. There are a lot of threats

1040
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 2: as well. I don't want to go into specifics on this,

1041
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 2: but one of the things I see is just so

1042
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 2: many sort of bad actors, you know, hackers is one example.

1043
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:22,280
Speaker 2: I sometimes think if I were running a company like yours,

1044
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 2: I would be I'll go to bed one night, probably

1045
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 2: on a Friday night, so excited about the sort of

1046
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 2: possibility of what can happen in the next five years,

1047
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 2: and I'd go to bed on another night, maybe a

1048
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 2: Sunday night, actually quite worried about things because there is

1049
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 2: so much to sort of guard against. At the moment,

1050
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 2: it feels, I mean, maybe I'm just getting old and pessimistic.

1051
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 6: Well, I can confirm that you and I bought getting old, Steven,

1052
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 6: so that is true. I think the role of a

1053
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 6: leader in a very digital centric world is to have

1054
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 6: this control tower bird's eye view of all the pe

1055
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 6: that I am in front of us. You know, with

1056
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 6: the many challenges that Africa has, there's also equally opportunity.

1057
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 6: But equally so they are challenges that create these risks

1058
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 6: where it is cyber, whether it is fraud, what is

1059
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 6: the lack of trust which is a bigger issue than

1060
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 6: both cyber and fraud in Africa where we just don't

1061
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 6: trust each other as humans forget AI for that matter.

1062
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 6: And I think it's about being able to balance this

1063
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 6: and as I mentioned earlier before the break, the ability

1064
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 6: to connect with a bigger purpose. In my case, I

1065
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 6: think about the problems that guide me to see all

1066
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 6: these pieces with calm and in compartments, because otherwise you'll

1067
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 6: just be too stressed out. Something like financial inclusion or

1068
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 6: what I called solving a problem that matters. These are

1069
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 6: the things that help CEOs guide all through all these challenges,

1070
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 6: because if it wasn't something bigger, you'd be overwhelmed by

1071
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 6: the challenges. Of the moment that we have to deal with.

1072
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 2: The CEO of trans Union Africa, reflecting on a really

1073
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:07,760
Speaker 2: interesting career and his vision for driving digital transformation across Africa.

1074
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 1: The Best of The Money Show from this week.

1075
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 2: You've been listening to the best bits of The Money Show,

1076
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,879
Speaker 2: a digest of just some of the most important insights

1077
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 2: on the show. This week. I'll be away for a

1078
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 2: little while. There will be important conversations in the space

1079
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 2: about money and many other things. I will see you

1080
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 2: next year, so please do look after yourself and please

1081
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 2: stay listening.

1082
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 5: Cheers,