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Speaker 1: I mean, I ever been passed over for a promotion

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Speaker 1: at work and you're thinking that you're going to get

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Speaker 1: it and you didn't get it, and you wondered why

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Speaker 1: why I thought I was going to be promoted. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're not alone, and it's exactly why promotions spark some

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Speaker 1: of the toughest debates in any team. It's a very

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Speaker 1: controversial issue.

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Speaker 2: Do you reward a.

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Speaker 1: Person who delivers brilliantly and who does so much work

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Speaker 1: but struggles with people. They're amazing, but they struggle with

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Speaker 1: people and team dynamics and so on. Or do you

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Speaker 1: reward someone else who is reliable and gets along with

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Speaker 1: everyone even if their work is just not that solid.

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Speaker 1: Today we thought, let's unpack this thing and see what

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Speaker 1: really gets what really goes on into deciding the performance

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Speaker 1: and behavior when making these decisions that bosses have to

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Speaker 1: keep up with. And joining us to guide us through

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Speaker 1: the is Lauren Clark, the head of people at the

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Speaker 1: Ment group, giving us a peak behind the curtain of promotions. Lauren,

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Speaker 1: thanks for joining us so good morning. I hope you good.

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Speaker 3: Hi, sala I, thank you very much for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited that we have in this discussion Lauren, because

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Speaker 1: almost all of us, and I'm sure all the listeners

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Speaker 1: are concerned about this because if it hasn't happened to you,

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Speaker 1: it has happened to someone that you know, either your

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Speaker 1: mom if you're young, or yourself, your brother, or a colleague.

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Speaker 1: Whether we're looking forward to be promoted, and it did

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Speaker 1: not go that well. But let's start at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: How do companies generally approach promotions, Lauren? Is there a

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Speaker 1: standard process or does it maybe depend on their discretion

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Speaker 1: of managers?

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Speaker 3: So Talmba. In an ideal world, I would say that

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Speaker 3: companies would have a very clear and fair process and

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Speaker 3: place that is very clear to everybody of how they

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Speaker 3: could advance their career. Okay, that would be an ideal Wilson,

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Speaker 3: As you and I both know that's not the case

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Speaker 3: for many organizations. And I think you know promotions are

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Speaker 3: such a sensitive topic because we're talking about somebody's life

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Speaker 3: that you know, your career progress is a reflection of

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Speaker 3: the work you've done, and you know where you're progressing

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Speaker 3: in life. And if organizations don't have a clear and

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Speaker 3: visible plan in place that guides vertical progress as well

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Speaker 3: as the consent progress of acquiring the non technical skills

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Speaker 3: to move your career to the next level. Then promotions

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Speaker 3: are always going to be inherently unfair.

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Speaker 2: And I'm hearing from what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: Please feel free to correct me at any time, Lauren,

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Speaker 1: because I know nothing about this. I work for myself,

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Speaker 1: so I know very little about promotions and things like that.

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing you to be saying that performance doesn't really

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Speaker 1: matter that much, or performance is not the sole criteria

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Speaker 1: that is looked at prior to promotion being given.

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Speaker 3: Correct, So it definitely matters that performance is one factor.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is where organizations get promotions or

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Speaker 3: any kind of staff movement wrong. Is when you pin

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Speaker 3: a staff movements decision on one source of data, then

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Speaker 3: it's going to be flawed because it's not taking into

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Speaker 3: account the other factors that will be impacted. So, if

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Speaker 3: an organization is promoting for the sake of meeting legislative targets,

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Speaker 3: for example, okay, you're going to have hollow promotion. You're

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Speaker 3: going to have people placed into positions they're not ready for.

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Speaker 3: They're going to fail, there's going to be conflict in

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Speaker 3: the workplace, et cetera. If you are creating promotion opportunities

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Speaker 3: to make somebody happy. So you've got a performer and

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Speaker 3: you've heard rumblings that they are looking for another job,

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Speaker 3: they're on the market, okay, and you have a reaction to, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: let's promote them and give them more money for then

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Speaker 3: you'll stay.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: You're creating an environment there. It's going to definitely become toxic.

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Speaker 3: But you're also create environment where possibly it wasn't actually

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Speaker 3: the outcome this person needed. Maybe they needed a different project,

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Speaker 3: a different challenge, a different career direction. Okay. So using

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Speaker 3: promotion as plaster to fix stuff is a very big mistake,

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Speaker 3: but organizations do that quite a lot. And another factor

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Speaker 3: to consider with promotion is who is giving the data

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Speaker 3: to make this decision. Because if you've just got one

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Speaker 3: manager who's giving feedback on a person, if they have

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Speaker 3: very very positive feedback, is that fact? Is that evidence

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Speaker 3: they or is that opinion? Are their friends? Do they

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Speaker 3: hang out on the weekend and a promise was made

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Speaker 3: over the brain and then yeah, okay? Or maybe they

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Speaker 3: actually don't get on very well, and this person's promotion

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Speaker 3: opportunities are being deflected because the manager is not speaking

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Speaker 3: up for them. Okay, So if you are using one

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Speaker 3: source of data for promotion, it can become very, very dangerous,

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Speaker 3: and it will also reduce the significance of the purpose

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Speaker 3: of promotion.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, does the monster called workplace politics play a role

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Speaker 1: in this? Where someone may not necessarily be as efficient,

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Speaker 1: but they are able to maneuver themselves very well within

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Speaker 1: management circles and their names are mentioned and laughter is

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Speaker 1: best out whenever they speak up on this person and

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Speaker 1: management just thinks, you know, it would be great to

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Speaker 1: have this person in our ranks because they are just

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Speaker 1: a lovely person. But so it could be also that

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Speaker 1: someone is perhaps throwing their own colleagues under the bus.

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Speaker 1: To to what extent do those nasty political workplace matter

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Speaker 1: play themselves to an extent where people who are wathy

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Speaker 1: of a promotion do not get it and those that

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Speaker 1: are not end up being promoted.

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent, workplace politics would definitely influence this, and

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Speaker 3: I think many of us have experienced this over the

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Speaker 3: course of our career and it is devastating and it's

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Speaker 3: heartbreaking because it creates an unsafe environment. And I often

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Speaker 3: talk about safety and on the show with Clement before

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Speaker 3: is around psychological cufty in the workplace is call to

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Speaker 3: the culture that creates and employee engagement and satisfaction. So

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Speaker 3: if there is politics in the world place that creates

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Speaker 3: an unsafe environment, and people know that you know, Bob

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Speaker 3: is going to you know, Bob is in there with

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Speaker 3: with managers and he's cool and he plays peddle on

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Speaker 3: the weekend with them, then why would they even try?

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Speaker 3: Why would I try and do my best if I

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Speaker 3: know that I'm never going to achieve anything. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to go anywhere in this company. So

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Speaker 3: you land up having a very apathetic workforce as well,

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Speaker 3: because what's the point?

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Speaker 4: And I think a lot of companies then target the

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Speaker 4: employees that become disengaged instead of fixing the problem, which

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Speaker 4: is the workplace politics, which is the subjective employee references,

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Speaker 4: instead of having an objective performance management system in.

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Speaker 1: Place, and the apathy that you're speaking about to our extent,

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Speaker 1: can it infiltrate throughout the company? When you are studying

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Speaker 1: taking process self developed meant engagements in order for you

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Speaker 1: to contribute better as an employee of the company, but

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Speaker 1: you're always overlooked, maybe because you keep to yourself on

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Speaker 1: weekends as you've said you don't care much for pedal,

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Speaker 1: You find it very boring, and you'd rather be with

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Speaker 1: your husband, your wife or your friends out of work,

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Speaker 1: and you'd come in and you do your thing and

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Speaker 1: you just leave. So, in a short way, I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to ask you, Lauren, how important is it also to

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Speaker 1: consider playing politics for your own advantage, even outside your personality.

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Speaker 1: If really this is the game that you want to

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Speaker 1: be in, and you've decided to play rugby, you must

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Speaker 1: take us some people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Salva, that's actually really great analogy and a great question,

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Speaker 3: because the truth of them is you need to build

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Speaker 3: an evidence, a portfolio of evidence. Anybody, no matter how

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Speaker 3: positive your work environment is, you should also be coming

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Speaker 3: to your performance management meeting, you and your will buy

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Speaker 3: and your KPRS with a portfolio of evidence to support

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Speaker 3: the work that you've done, the growth that you've achieved,

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Speaker 3: the certifications, the study, the learnings you've done, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: So I think a lot of people kind of let

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Speaker 3: performance management and performance measurements happen to them. You know,

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Speaker 3: they show up at their kprs and this is you know,

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Speaker 3: their manager telling me and oh, you know you're getting

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Speaker 3: at this rating because of this. Okay, people need to

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Speaker 3: own their jobs, They need to own their careers. You

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Speaker 3: should be arriving in your kPr meeting with your portfolio

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Speaker 3: of evidence to demonstrate what you've achieved. Because when we

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Speaker 3: bring it down to evidence, when we bring it down

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Speaker 3: to facts, if there really is an unfair process of

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Speaker 3: promotion of any kind of recognition and that, then you

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Speaker 3: can do something about it. You can go to the

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Speaker 3: next level of management with your portfolio of evidence and

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Speaker 3: ask for feedback. Why was I not promoted when I

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Speaker 3: have this evidence to support my capability and my career position,

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Speaker 3: but another person who doesn't have that evidence was promoted.

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Speaker 3: Because then it also puts me the company on the

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Speaker 3: spot to be transparent about how they make these decisions. Okay,

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Speaker 3: And I mean, in an ideal world, you'd get justice,

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Speaker 3: you know, you'd get a fair hearing and that type

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Speaker 3: of thing. I'm sure that's not always the case. But

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Speaker 3: I think the message here with any kind of promotion

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Speaker 3: or any kind of career movement is you need to

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Speaker 3: be driving it and you need to have the evidence

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Speaker 3: to support yourself.

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Speaker 1: Sure, Sure, the time is eighteen after eleven. My guest,

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Speaker 1: Lauren Clark Lauren is head of people at Mint Group

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Speaker 1: and today we are looking at promotions in the workplace.

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Speaker 1: The feature is called World of Work. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: been overlooked for a promotion? Give us call? How did

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Speaker 1: that make you feel? Did you remedy the situation? Do

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Speaker 1: you play office politics at work? Do you see some

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Speaker 1: people being promoted and not you? Or you know these

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Speaker 1: office politics so well and you play them so excellently

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Speaker 1: to an extent that you are the one who always.

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Speaker 2: Gets a heat.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you've got some tips of two for people who

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Speaker 1: are never promoted, and you say you'd want to say

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Speaker 1: to them, listen, consider doing this, that or the other.

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Speaker 1: Don't just put in so many hours at work that

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Speaker 1: does not necessarily result into a promotion. You also need

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Speaker 1: to have some soft power skills in order for you

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Speaker 1: to maneuver and to move up.

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Speaker 2: The letter, the corporate letter, I'd love to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: Give us a shout, especially if you feel that you've

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Speaker 1: been hot done by and you deserve the promotion and

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Speaker 1: it didn't happen oh one one eight eight three seven

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Speaker 1: two oh one one eight eight three oh seven O two,

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Speaker 1: or if you dread that you could easily send a

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Speaker 1: voice note, give us just your perspective, short, sweet and

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Speaker 1: shop on seven two seven two one seven two. Lauren,

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Speaker 1: I just want to press a little bit on this issue.

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Speaker 1: Do you have some tips perhaps on people who are

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Speaker 1: not necessarily as assertive, people who are recluse of society,

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Speaker 1: who do not necessarily go out there to put themselves out,

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Speaker 1: who don't carry a billboard around them when they're walking

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Speaker 1: to the water cooler in the office, who don't advertise

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Speaker 1: the small winds that they do, but are hard working

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Speaker 1: and deserving. How do you change that, even if it's

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Speaker 1: your personality. What can you do to position yourself a

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Speaker 1: little bit strategically in the limelight and in the eyes

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Speaker 1: of decision makers in order to be considered for a promotion.

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Speaker 3: Any tips, Well, I mean it's a really good point,

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Speaker 3: because not everybody does have a voice and the personality

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Speaker 3: to kind of speak up. And I think one of

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Speaker 3: the most obvious ways that somebody stands out is when

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Speaker 3: they when whatever they've been doing stops, so just for example,

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Speaker 3: they go and leave and then people are like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, this not being done. Where's this person that

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Speaker 3: does this? And you notice they're important? So I think

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Speaker 3: It's always important to be doing something in your role

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Speaker 3: that becomes really important to the greater scheme of the function,

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Speaker 3: because if you're just doing something that anybody could do

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Speaker 3: or you know, just I mean I always reference our

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Speaker 3: office cleaner, and when she is not there, the very

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Speaker 3: first thing we can see is the dishes piling up

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Speaker 3: in the kitchen, and immediately everybody is like, oh, it's

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Speaker 3: Musa off today. Where's Musa okay? Because she provides a

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Speaker 3: service or she's doing a task that is really important,

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Speaker 3: but we don't notice it when it's there, when happening,

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Speaker 3: because it's the you know, part of what I do

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Speaker 3: until she's no longer there or she's not there okay.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's how people should be viewing portions

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Speaker 3: of their job. What are you doing that makes you

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Speaker 3: important to a bigger picture, so that without you or

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Speaker 3: without the thing that you do, somebody takes notice and goes, hey, wait,

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Speaker 3: this is nothing done. Where's this person? Because then more

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Speaker 3: people acknowledge you, people are talking about the role that

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Speaker 3: you play, and that's what you want. You want to

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Speaker 3: raise your profile so that somebody is talking about you

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Speaker 3: in a positive and constructive way. Because remember the people

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Speaker 3: that are making decisions of promotions and salary increases, job titles,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. They don't work with you on a day

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Speaker 3: to day basis. Okay, they are receiving second or third

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Speaker 3: or fourth hand feedback. So you need to make sure

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Speaker 3: that somebody is speaking up on your behalf, somebody is

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Speaker 3: bringing this evidence forward on your behalf. And the way

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Speaker 3: to do that is to spot classes. So do people

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Speaker 3: know what it is you bring to your role and

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Speaker 3: what happens when you don't bring it, what happens when

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Speaker 3: you're on lead, what happens when you're off sick? Who

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Speaker 3: speaks that, Who says, oh, this is not being done,

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Speaker 3: So I really miss it when Sally's not here because

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Speaker 3: she gets us done so well. And that's what you want,

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Speaker 3: is you need to amplify your capability.

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Speaker 1: M being affable versus being competent. Of course, there are

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Speaker 1: people who may have those two traits, but at times

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Speaker 1: one has one and is without the other. And can

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Speaker 1: that also be a criteria where management says, huh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we like this tabo guy, but he's very stubborn and

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Speaker 1: he is contentrous, he is argumentative. We will be just

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Speaker 1: in management meetings, will just be having arguments NonStop.

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Speaker 2: So let's go with abel.

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Speaker 1: Is it going he perhaps doesn't have the skill that

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Speaker 1: the other guy has, but someone that we can work

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Speaker 1: with and that we can groom him to become this.

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Speaker 2: Do those conversations exist.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Tarba, And I can personally say, having written an

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Speaker 3: HR for twenty five plus years that for me, the

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Speaker 3: standout characteristic is and the benchmark that we always use

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Speaker 3: is be the colleague you want to work with, Okay,

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Speaker 3: And that benchmark means be somebody that is easy to

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Speaker 3: work with that makes the job better. And so to

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Speaker 3: answer your question, somebody who is really technically good but

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Speaker 3: has a bad attitude or they rude, or they are

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Speaker 3: unreliable is not a colleague that I want. And that's

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Speaker 3: my honest opinion. Yeah, but somebody, but somebody who is

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Speaker 3: really great to work with. They're reliable, they're dependable. They

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Speaker 3: might not be the best technical person, but they're good

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Speaker 3: and there's a runway to increase their skills, to develop

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Speaker 3: their skills further. Yes, but they add value to the

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Speaker 3: team with their the ease with which they can be

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Speaker 3: that we work with them, their reliability, their communication skills.

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Speaker 3: That is far, far, far more important, and it's referencing

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Speaker 3: back to the things we chatted amount earlier in this conversation.

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Speaker 3: You want to be constantly building and adding value to

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Speaker 3: your environment and your the company's culture, and that is

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Speaker 3: what adds value is somebody who's good to work with.

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Speaker 1: Certainly your voice notes on seven two seven O two

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Speaker 1: one seven two.

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Speaker 5: Okay, seven O two family, What a fun topic that

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Speaker 5: you have covered your dos. You know, there's something that

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Speaker 5: I've realized in my very short eighteen year career is

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Speaker 5: that there are certain levels of a business where you

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Speaker 5: can get promoted because they need the technical ability to

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Speaker 5: be pleasent at that level, and then there are other

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Speaker 5: levels that are typically above that level where politics is

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Speaker 5: one hundred percent the name of the game. So one

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Speaker 5: would need to identify firstly the proportion that they are

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Speaker 5: looking for. Is it technically inclined or do they need

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Speaker 5: to have a little bit of personality for it? And

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Speaker 5: then the alternative being is that one hundred percent personality

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Speaker 5: and then you just need to have just enough technical

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Speaker 5: ability to get you by. So it's critical that one

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Speaker 5: identifies those requirements before being or before feeling hot done

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Speaker 5: by being overlooked for a promotion. This is my daughter here,

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Speaker 5: ger Misty.

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Speaker 2: Let's go to another one.

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Speaker 1: I'd like you, Lauren, to a respond to those, But

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Speaker 1: because we're getting closer to the end of the session,

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Speaker 1: maybe we'll chat it. We'll chat about it a little

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Speaker 1: bit later on oh seven two seven oh two one

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Speaker 1: seven o two. I would love to hear from you.

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Speaker 2: Again. This comes up, Laurence, so too.

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Speaker 1: I think it might be a little bit discouraging that

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Speaker 1: your skills, your competence are just not enough. And but

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Speaker 1: also we cannot necessarily say that it happens across board.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure somewhere out there there are bosses who are

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Speaker 1: concerned about competency over just liking someone. There are bosses

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Speaker 1: who are really keen on getting the work done over

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Speaker 1: and above work politics.

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Speaker 3: I mean as well, there is certainly your job. The

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Speaker 3: technical component has definitely got more weight, and recently just

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Speaker 3: observing a truck driver reverse into a delivery dock and

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Speaker 3: recognizing the skill that it takes to do that, and

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Speaker 3: if I put that into this conversation, you want somebody

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Speaker 3: who's really skilled at driving to be driving your massive

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Speaker 3: delivery truck safely and securely through the city. So you're

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Speaker 3: not going to place priority on whether they're a nice person.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to be like, oh, they friendly. You know,

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Speaker 3: the priority there is can they drive this rig really

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Speaker 3: well and safely and do this job? So absolutely, there

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Speaker 3: would be like a waiting system involved in terms of

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Speaker 3: wander the parity. But I think it boils down to

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Speaker 3: the factive what is adding value to your overall culture

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Speaker 3: and is this person promoting This person with the combination

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Speaker 3: of technical and not skills will add value to this

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Speaker 3: organization and the culture in this promoted position.

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Speaker 1: Very interesting, I mean, Lauren, this is also fascinating. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's the world of adults, and you're getting to

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Speaker 1: understand that it's just not what's on paper that matters.

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Speaker 1: You have to have a number of skills. And I

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Speaker 1: wanted to ask Squeeze in this last question. People are

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Speaker 1: continuously obsessed with our rights that it's four o'clock, I'm

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Speaker 1: going home, goodbye.

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Speaker 2: I can't take calls after nine o'clock.

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Speaker 1: I'm with my family, I'm starting work at seven, and

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Speaker 1: before that you can't send me a text? Are they

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Speaker 1: doing themselves at disfavor to be considered for a promotion?

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Speaker 3: And I opening up another Pandora's box for our next discussion,

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Speaker 3: and because it depends again, if you've got a company

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Speaker 3: culture that respect personal time and actually supports work life balance,

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Speaker 3: they're no, you know, having those boundaries in place shouldn't

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Speaker 3: impact your job progress, your career progress negatively at all.

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Speaker 3: But as you and I both know, and as we

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Speaker 3: reference in this core, not all organizations have that view.

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Speaker 3: And somebody who is always available and always responsive, you know, absolutely,

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Speaker 3: that's somebody. You know, the person making the decision about

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Speaker 3: promotion will be like, well, you know, Bob is always here.

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Speaker 3: It'll be such an easy when let's promote him, because

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Speaker 3: then he'll get stuff done. And that's ascally what's visible,

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Speaker 3: you know. So it's a lot of this boils down

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Speaker 3: to the kind of organization that we're talking about and

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Speaker 3: the policies and protgures they have in place and the

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Speaker 3: culture that they have around performance.

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Speaker 1: A million thanks Lauren Clark, head of people at Mental Group,

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Speaker 1: and this was our World Off Work feature. We're looking

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Speaker 1: at promotions to the workplace