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Speaker 1: So the bombing of your military opponent's infrastructure where that

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Speaker 1: infrastructure is used by civilians as well, is their international

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Speaker 1: law that speaks to that, and if so, is it

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Speaker 1: a set of laws that has any kind of teeth.

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Speaker 1: Let's explore this issue and welcome to seven two Drive

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Speaker 1: Martha Bradley, who's an associate professor in law at the

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Speaker 1: University of Johannesburg and an expert on this matter. Bradley, welcome,

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Speaker 1: and thanks very much for giving us your time. Is

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Speaker 1: the law of war clear on this issue, and if so,

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Speaker 1: what does it say?

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Speaker 2: Hi, John, It's wonderful to be with you. It's unfortunate

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Speaker 2: that these are the circumstances in which we are taking. Indeed,

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Speaker 2: the law of war, or it's also known of international

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Speaker 2: humanitarian law, is very clear, and the United States of

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Speaker 2: America is a party to all for the Geneva Conventions,

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Speaker 2: and they're also bound by customary international humanitarian law which

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Speaker 2: finds them as they did not ractify the Targeting Treaty,

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Speaker 2: which is additional vertigol one. But they are bound to

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Speaker 2: the norms that state the principle of distinction. That principle

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Speaker 2: means that all states in the world are bound to

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Speaker 2: target only military objectives and not civilian infrastructure. Now the

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Speaker 2: catch is if civilian infrastructure are also used for military purposes,

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Speaker 2: because then it loses its protection under HL, meaning that

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Speaker 2: if a bridge are used by the military to transport

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Speaker 2: their weapons, then it means they're dual usage and it

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Speaker 2: is targetable. But every single target verification process is also

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Speaker 2: subjected and the legality of targeting to proportionality. That is

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Speaker 2: a rule of international humanitarian or and precautions. So you

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Speaker 2: can't not just bomb every single and bridge in Iran.

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Speaker 2: That would be disproportional. So how you es proportionality will

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Speaker 2: be a balance between the military advantage right in terms

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Speaker 2: of your military objective, So there's no blanket that you

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Speaker 2: can just bomb or bridges.

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Speaker 1: I was about to ask about bridges and maybe by

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Speaker 1: extrapolation railway infrastructure, because often that would be either a

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Speaker 1: road or rail network of which the bridge would form part.

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Speaker 1: But is it a question of proportionality, So if it's,

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Speaker 1: for example, a bridge specifically leading to a military base,

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Speaker 1: is it as narrow as that, Or if it's a

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Speaker 1: road that is used for multiple purposes, which may also

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Speaker 1: be people's access to a hospital. Law linking grain growing

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Speaker 1: areas with centers of urban population that need to be

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Speaker 1: able to bake some bread. I mean, how is all

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Speaker 1: this weighed up?

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Speaker 2: So essentially, if it's used solely for military purposes, then

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Speaker 2: it's a military objective, right, so the state can go ahead,

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Speaker 2: but again it has to be proportional. But if you

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Speaker 2: have a dual use object your road or your railway

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Speaker 2: that is used by both civilians and the military, then

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Speaker 2: you will factor in precautions giving a warning. That's a

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Speaker 2: lateral damage astatement of proportionality. But there's also a rule

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Speaker 2: under h L International militarian laws if you cannot target

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Speaker 2: infrastructure that is critical to the survival of the civilian population.

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Speaker 2: So if you have an electric electricity gret that supplies

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Speaker 2: electricity to civilians and the military, and it's the only

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Speaker 2: grip that supports them hospital in that town, then you

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Speaker 2: cannot target it because it is essential for the civilian population.

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Speaker 2: So you cannot target every single power plant in Iran,

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Speaker 2: because then where will civilians receive electricity? That will be illegal.

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Speaker 2: It will be disproportional as well, but it will definitely

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Speaker 2: be illegal. So there's more layers yes to your target

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Speaker 2: verification ahead of your stride.

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Speaker 1: How does all this have meaning in a world where,

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Speaker 1: presumably if powerful countries or even not so powerful countries

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Speaker 1: choose to just simply ignore all of this and say, well,

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Speaker 1: yeah whatever, you know, that's the rule book, and we're

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Speaker 1: in the real world, and you one just has to

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Speaker 1: look back the Russia Ukraine conflict, where to my mind,

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Speaker 1: at least lots of civilian infrastructure has been deliberately targeted.

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Speaker 1: I mean, does this have any real force beyond the moral.

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Speaker 2: Well, surprisingly, because that's not what we see in the news,

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Speaker 2: because good news does not sell newspapers, right, But for

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Speaker 2: the part majority, the law of war is respected by states. Well. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: in Ukraine Russia we see violations on both sides that

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Speaker 2: explicitly target to civilian infrastructure. That is a violation. In

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Speaker 2: the case of the US Iran most of the violations

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Speaker 2: actually is committed by Iran targeting civilian infrastructure in neighboring states.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the US striking down as school is clearly

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Speaker 2: a violation of international humanitarian law, but for the most

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Speaker 2: part they have complied with HL. It's just important to

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Speaker 2: remind listeners that starting a war, the legality of going

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Speaker 2: to war is not regulated by the law. Conflict is

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Speaker 2: how you fight the war, so we'll have to judge

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Speaker 2: on what happens tonight. Hopefully nothing happens, but we'll have

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Speaker 2: to assess one actual action has been taken taken by

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Speaker 2: the United States against such infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Fascinating associate professor at the University

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Speaker 1: of Johannesburg and an expert on international humanitarian law, Martha

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Speaker 1: Bradley eighteen minutes past five