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Speaker 1: Streaming countrywide on Prime Media.

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Speaker 2: Class on DStv channel eight eight five and across the city.

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Speaker 1: On five.

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Speaker 3: We'll be talking micro plastics. We're going to find out

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Speaker 3: exactly what it's doing to our health. We're going to

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Speaker 3: find out, of course, if we can rid our bodies

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Speaker 3: of these micro plastics. We're going to talk that to

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Speaker 3: doctor Rosa Basquetz, a heavy hitter in fact, an associate

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Speaker 3: professor at Kingston University, a key member of the United

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Speaker 3: Nations Environment Programs Assessment Panel, and our work focuses specifically

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Speaker 3: on the Trojan Horse effect. Micro Plastics don't just exist

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Speaker 3: as physical debris, but also act as vehicles for toxic

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Speaker 3: chemicals and pathogens. So a very warm welcome to you,

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Speaker 3: doctor Besquitz, is great to have you with us.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much for having me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you've mentioned that our analytical tools are are being pushed.

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Speaker 3: You you mentioned that we currently underestimating the amount of

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Speaker 3: plastic in the human body because nanoplastics are so difficult

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Speaker 3: to detect. Just tell us what our status is on detection.

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Speaker 3: On the detection front.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, the reports that we have about micronanoplastics are underestimating

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Speaker 2: the numbers because the techniques that we have for that,

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Speaker 2: they find it very difficult to detect the smaller particles.

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Speaker 2: And the smaller particles are the most abundant.

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Speaker 1: We know that, Yeah, we are.

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Speaker 3: We talking about the the the the particles that are

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Speaker 3: that are getting into into our blood, the very very

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Speaker 3: small particles, and I believe they carry hitchhikers as well

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Speaker 3: some pollutants with them as well. Tell us exactly how

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Speaker 3: small they are and how they manage to get into

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Speaker 3: the blood.

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Speaker 2: So the bigger plastic particles don't seem to be a

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Speaker 2: big problem. These big particles maybe five millimeters so the

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Speaker 2: size of a grain rice. But the smaller particles are

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Speaker 2: are worse. A microplastic is as small as a red

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Speaker 2: blood cell, so very small, and as big as a

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Speaker 2: grain of price. And then noneoplastics are smaller than a

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Speaker 2: red blood cell, even like covid or someone is very

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Speaker 2: very small. So they can be very small. And the

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Speaker 2: smaller particles are the ones that penetrate in our organs.

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Speaker 2: And these ones may be the toxic ones.

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Speaker 3: Yeah you say so, these these very very small ones

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Speaker 3: that are penetrating into a blood, they are carrying pollutants

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Speaker 3: with them, do they absorb these pollutants in.

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Speaker 1: The environment and then take them into a blood.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, they can addsorb pollutants. However, because of them being

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Speaker 2: a particle themselves, they can be toxic by themselves. If

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Speaker 2: they have absorbed a pollutant, it will be in very

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Speaker 2: small concentration, So a substance is toxic depending on the dose,

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Speaker 2: and the dose of the pollutant onto a microplastic will

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Speaker 2: be small, so that is not a concern. However, it

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Speaker 2: is a concern that they help to spread pollutants. For instance,

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Speaker 2: antibiotics in rivers may be spreading more just because they

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Speaker 2: are on top of.

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Speaker 3: The plastics understood, and the big and the bigger plastics

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Speaker 3: are just passing through our bodies essentially, Is that what

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Speaker 3: you say?

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Speaker 2: Yes, when they are big, they may just passing through. However,

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Speaker 2: some they maybe get stuck in our stomach. And we

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Speaker 2: see these in animals that animals, fish that have plastics

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Speaker 2: in their stomach, they tend to be underdeveloped because they

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Speaker 2: don't eat that much.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I just sounds if we're moving from concern because

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Speaker 3: we've flagged this, it looks as well as if we're

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Speaker 3: moving to proven clinical risk. Recent studies of linked microplastics

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Speaker 3: to heart attacks.

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Speaker 1: Tell us more about that.

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Speaker 4: So there is one study that was published in.

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Speaker 2: The New England Journal that found microplastic particles in the

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Speaker 2: art the aroma. So it means that the microplastics there

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Speaker 2: are holding the fat in the tissue and this may

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Speaker 2: be linked with high blood pressure and the consequences of

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Speaker 2: high blood pressure. However, there are not so many epidemiological

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Speaker 2: studies that link disease with microplastic exposure. So there are

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Speaker 2: some statistical studies called epidemiological studies that are yet to happen.

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Speaker 2: So the link between disease and microplastic exposure is not

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Speaker 2: yet there. So we know that microplastics in our body,

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Speaker 2: we know what they may be doing, but we don't

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Speaker 2: have the evidence for that because we cannot do studies

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Speaker 2: with humans.

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Speaker 3: I guess doctor Rose Basquetez environmental chemists getting a sense

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Speaker 3: of the microplastics now they're coming to bear on our health,

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Speaker 3: and of course we get to the question on.

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Speaker 1: How can we stop this. Let's talk about other parts

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Speaker 1: of the body.

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Speaker 3: We're talking nanoplastics have been found in the brain, in

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Speaker 3: the placenta. From a chemist perspective, what happens to the

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Speaker 3: integrity of a cell when a plastic polymer settles inside it.

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Speaker 4: So the study that.

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Speaker 2: There are not so many studies in every tissue, I

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Speaker 2: have to say, And the study in the brain has

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Speaker 2: been quite controversial because the analytical methodology used for that

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Speaker 2: study could not differentiate well between plastic particles and fatty tissues.

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Speaker 2: So some studies are under microscope as well because of

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Speaker 2: the challenge of the analysis itself. When a microplastic enters cell,

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Speaker 2: there is overall consensus that it causes inflammation and when

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Speaker 2: the body is in flame, it is more prone to

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Speaker 2: get other diseases. So this is the older studies seem

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Speaker 2: to be agreeing with that fact. They cause inflammation.

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Speaker 1: And how do you treat information? What is that antibiotics

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Speaker 1: that you need?

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Speaker 2: No antibiotics wouldn't so simply it's like stress. You have

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Speaker 2: stress in your body. When you have stress, then maybe

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Speaker 2: you will get other diseases because your body is already

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Speaker 2: trying to calm down. So this is one will not

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Speaker 2: treat or take pharmaceuticals for that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I know some of the can says and some

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Speaker 3: of the responsors have been One for example, has been

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Speaker 3: people turning or switching to reverse osmosis filters.

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Speaker 1: Is there a solution to the challenge.

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Speaker 2: No, it's not a solution, and indeed, I written a

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Speaker 2: couple of articles in magazines about that. This is the

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Speaker 2: media exploding this problem. So if you pay attention to

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Speaker 2: the dialysis machines, these machines are made of plastic, or

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Speaker 2: that you doing is made of plastic. Every single valve

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Speaker 2: is made of plastic, and the person that is exposed

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Speaker 2: to these machines may get eliminated some of their microplastics

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Speaker 2: in the blood, but will also get some new microplastics

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Speaker 2: from the machine using the dialysis. We are currently doing

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Speaker 2: a study in hospitals and when we meet the next time.

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Speaker 4: I may have the results.

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Speaker 2: But I can't tell you so far that dialysis machines

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Speaker 2: are releasing microplastics by themselves. The machines, yeah, exactly, they

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Speaker 2: are made of plastic. When a machine goes through a

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Speaker 2: mechanical force, naturally they release microplastics and the liquids from

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Speaker 2: these machines go directly into the blood. So it's not

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Speaker 2: a solution to do dialysis, and some studies need to

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Speaker 2: be done to check the efficiency. At the moment, some

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Speaker 2: companies are selling that as a solution, but they don't

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Speaker 2: have that means them to.

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Speaker 1: Check it sure.

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Speaker 4: So these studies are not.

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Speaker 2: Is not recommended, and they don't have the evidence that

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Speaker 2: they are removing microplastics.

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Speaker 3: With the amount of plastic in our environment, the drawing

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Speaker 3: amount of.

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Speaker 1: My adds till too.

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Speaker 3: The future looks like we my only dialysis.

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Speaker 2: Not dialysis with machines that are made of plastic. So

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Speaker 2: dialysis is not a solution. The solution is that what

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Speaker 2: we eat and what we ring has less plastic particles.

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Speaker 2: And for that that needs to be legislation indicating maximum

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Speaker 2: level of plastic particles in food and in waste water

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Speaker 2: and in drinking water. That will be the solution, and

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Speaker 2: that we are reliant on plastic. But I will tell

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Speaker 2: you something that is surprising. When we're analyzing microplastics in food,

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Speaker 2: we not only find the microplastics of the lead or

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Speaker 2: the bottle. We find fibers that may be from the

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Speaker 2: clothing of the workers that have been processing the food.

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Speaker 2: We find pieces of plastic from the machines that may

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Speaker 2: have been used to produce that food.

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Speaker 4: So process food.

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Speaker 2: We will have or is expected to have more amounts

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Speaker 2: of microplastics. And if you are eating a tomato or

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Speaker 2: a lettuce for instance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, we also see, yeah, there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: green washing happening out there as well.

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Speaker 1: What should we be watching out for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so companies, some companies want to exploit that. And indeed,

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Speaker 2: something that I don't like is when they tell you

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Speaker 2: only a little bit of the story. So bioplastics, bio

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Speaker 2: bio seems like a good word, a nice word, but

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Speaker 2: biosimply means that that plastic that is a plastic has

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Speaker 2: not been made from petrol. Maybe it has been made

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Speaker 2: from a krilla, mite from a potato, but actually it

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Speaker 2: is a plastic, and we will go through the process

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Speaker 2: of a plastic degradation. So plastic we degrate into millions

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Speaker 2: of particles, and every plastic is a problem. At the moment,

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Speaker 2: we don't have efficient ways to recycle plastic. Once we

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Speaker 2: know what's the best way to recycle plastic and what

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Speaker 2: are the best plastics, then products should be made of

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Speaker 2: these best plastics. At the moment, plastics are used randomly,

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Speaker 2: but it's very problematic to deal with the end product

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Speaker 2: of a plastic. It staystes for many years around us,

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Speaker 2: and when it goes through the phase of being plastic particles,

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Speaker 2: then it's very difficult to control, so it should be

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Speaker 2: intercepted when it's still a big plastic and even better,

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Speaker 2: if it's not needed, if we don't need to package

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Speaker 2: oranges with plastic, then let's not do it, and let's

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Speaker 2: ask our supermarkets to not to overpackage.

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Speaker 4: So it can start a.

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Speaker 2: Change with us using less plastical, demanding our shops to

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Speaker 2: use less plastic.

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Speaker 3: How long would it take to get out of the system.

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Speaker 3: I mean if we stopped all plastic production tomorrow today,

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Speaker 3: how long would it take for those microplastics already then

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Speaker 3: food chain to stop affecting our human health.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, in the United Nations, the Paneling where I am,

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Speaker 2: we are trying to quantify the lifetime lifetime of a

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Speaker 2: plastic particle because it goes through many phases and the

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Speaker 2: sunlight is a main factor READI plastics. It's very difficult

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Speaker 2: to assess this because plastics inside them. They have chemicals

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Speaker 2: that stabilize the plastics so for them to be more durable,

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Speaker 2: so they last for a long time decade.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Rosa Basquette, our guest environmental chemist, we're looking at

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Speaker 3: the microplastics inside us.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about the big ones, not the.

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Speaker 3: Big pieces, the little pieces that somehow find its way

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Speaker 3: into ourselves. That's how small they are. We're finding out

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Speaker 3: what it's doing to our house and how we can

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Speaker 3: stop it. Let's talk about stopping it some more. We've

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Speaker 3: had the conversations about plastics in our system. We had

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Speaker 3: the conversation about cutting boards plastic cutting boards. Research suggests

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Speaker 3: it sheds very significant amounts of plastics. Have you switched

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Speaker 3: to wood or bamboo in your own kitchen? Is it

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Speaker 3: something that we should be thinking about as well?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I have switched tood indeed, But it's a bit

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Speaker 2: of common sense. You can see how the plastics are generated.

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Speaker 2: But as I said before, it's not about us making

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Speaker 2: the plastic. When I have been analyzing oil bottles of oil,

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't expect so many fibers in them, and when

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Speaker 2: where these fibers come from?

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Speaker 1: What kind of oil?

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Speaker 2: So when we are eating food that has been processed,

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Speaker 2: it accumulates plastics from the whole process, from the industry,

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Speaker 2: from the machines that have been pumping that liquid. So

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Speaker 2: not everything is under our control, but overall, eating less

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Speaker 2: processed food will expose us less to plastic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so processed food you need to flag as a

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Speaker 3: source of plastic.

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Speaker 1: There was a twenty twenty food study as well.

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Speaker 3: That showed the boiling hard tap water can remove up

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Speaker 3: to ninety percent of nano microplastics. You may be familiar

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Speaker 3: with South Africa doctor baskets. So we are looking for

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Speaker 3: solutions that the everyday person in South Africa can afford.

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Speaker 1: Boiling water? Is that I something I can help?

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Speaker 2: No, Boiling water will not do anything to the plastic.

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Speaker 2: The plastic will remain there. Plus it will make it

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Speaker 2: leach these additives that the plastic have, So the water

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Speaker 2: will potentially have more metals, more plasticizers because of the

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Speaker 2: hot temperature. So it will be a bad solution indeed.

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Speaker 3: Okay, now, but they were talking about hard water and

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Speaker 3: that they got trapped in the lime scale. Is that

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Speaker 3: possible if the water is hard.

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Speaker 2: If the water is hot, if it is also a

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Speaker 2: little bit of lime scale, the limb scale may have

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Speaker 2: accummulated plastic.

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Speaker 4: So I don't see hot water solution.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So you don't see it as a viable poor

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Speaker 3: man's solution. To what extent will the poor of the

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Speaker 3: earth be affected? Would they be disproportionately affected.

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Speaker 2: There are not so many studies quantifying microplastics in every

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Speaker 2: item of food, but many times those who don't have

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Speaker 2: so many resources they eat less processed food. So actually

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Speaker 2: it could be that those who eat more I don't know,

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Speaker 2: vegetables and they are.

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Speaker 4: Less exposed to microplastics.

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Speaker 2: It's about that those so how frequently you It's something

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Speaker 2: that can have been in Dutch at some point with plastic.

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Speaker 2: So if you eat directly from your allotment, you may

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Speaker 2: not have so many microplastics unless you're using mulching films

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Speaker 2: in your allotment.

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Speaker 4: Of course, yeah, processful.

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Speaker 1: Is good, I get you. So I guess that answers

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Speaker 1: your question.

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Speaker 3: The question is fresh produces covered in sallow fine plastic packets,

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Speaker 3: would that be a concern packaging.

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Speaker 4: Your food.

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Speaker 2: Packaging is indeed one of the main storers of plastic

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Speaker 2: in the environment, and we can see this in the

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Speaker 2: studies in South Africa. Precisely, polyethylen was a main plastic

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Speaker 2: microplastic in fresh water and also in the scene near Durban.

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Speaker 4: So plastic packaging is a problem.

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Speaker 3: So a doctor asked, once a microsoplastic enters the blood stream,

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Speaker 3: does it evade my body's natural defense systems, the immune system.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because when we say that they are affecting, they

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Speaker 2: are oxidating, oxidating our body and inflame.

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Speaker 4: This means that the immune system needs to work harder.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and then maybe this would apply to the bigger

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Speaker 3: plastics as well. Just how could it impact the let's

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Speaker 3: call it geography of the guat.

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Speaker 4: In the gud. Some of them may pass through the gat.

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Speaker 4: Indeed it will go to the some of them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I guess the question is how do we stop it?

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Speaker 3: Bioplastics is is that something that we should be thinking about.

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Speaker 4: Bioplastics are.

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Speaker 2: Not coming from from fuel, so they are made from biomass.

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Speaker 4: They are plastics.

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Speaker 2: So you will not know if if your pen comes

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Speaker 2: from a potato or if it comes from fuel.

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Speaker 4: But actually the.

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Speaker 2: End product in terms of environmental problem and health problem

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Speaker 2: will become a problem.

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Speaker 4: It is in terms of c O two that has

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Speaker 4: been used to produce it.

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Speaker 2: Possibly a bioplastic is better than than if COEO two,

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Speaker 2: sorry better has been used. The plastic industry is the

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Speaker 2: industry that causes more CEO to emissions more than the

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Speaker 2: flight industry.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and then it's also of course microplastics are there.

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Speaker 3: That's in the air that we breathe. It's it's in

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Speaker 3: the in the rain.

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Speaker 2: Not so much, not so much in the area is

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Speaker 2: the media where there is less microplastics. There are fibers,

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Speaker 2: but so far the concentrations that we have in detecting

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Speaker 2: are low and we don't expect them to affect the

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Speaker 2: weather because with the un we have been checking if

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Speaker 2: the microplastics in are they will be affecting climate.

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Speaker 3: Is there a plastic habit maybe that you you you

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Speaker 3: want us to quit.

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Speaker 4: A habit that we want a.

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Speaker 1: Plastic habit, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: If you've found something that is pretty commonplace that we

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Speaker 3: are using that could protect us from especially as nanoplastics.

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Speaker 1: Then.

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Speaker 2: I'd say that in some countries, in Spain I'm very

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Speaker 2: familiar with it, we rely a lot on drinks in

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Speaker 2: plastic bottles and instead of using tap water. So the

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Speaker 2: concentration of plastic particles in plastic bottle, in plastic bottles

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Speaker 2: or in drinking water from that is important. We'll have

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Speaker 2: more microplastics than tap water and this can be a

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Speaker 2: bad habit in terms of microplastics.

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Speaker 1: And then.

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Speaker 3: Some questions about the cutting board would stainless. Still, somebody

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Speaker 3: else asking wood glass cutting boards also be better than

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Speaker 3: plastic chopping boards is the best one?

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Speaker 2: I would use wood? But is that the toxicity? And

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Speaker 2: is about the exposure? What those are you receiving and

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Speaker 2: how frequently you're receiving. So I don't know how often

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Speaker 2: you're using your cutting board. If it's one a year,

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Speaker 2: you will not receive so much those. But if you're

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Speaker 2: using it every day, then it will be an important

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Speaker 2: source of microplastics.

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Speaker 4: So yes, I would switch to wood.

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Speaker 3: Last question, do you think we could remediate maybe the

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Speaker 3: environment cleared of these these plastics or is our goal

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Speaker 3: simply to.

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Speaker 1: Is a goal damage control?

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Speaker 2: Yes, indeed there is solution for it because we have

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Speaker 2: seen that with whatter treatment plans are our main pathway

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Speaker 2: of microplastics, especially micro fibers, from our washing machines to

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Speaker 2: the environment. They are a very important opportunity where we

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Speaker 2: could intercept these microplastics before they are spread to the

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Speaker 2: rivers and to the sea. So by encouraging ways what

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Speaker 2: are my plants to clean microplastics? So implementing better technologies,

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Speaker 2: doing research on it, then we will be releasing less

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Speaker 2: microplastics to the rivers at the moment. The technologies that

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Speaker 2: were plants are using are very old.

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Speaker 4: Because they have.

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Speaker 2: Been very reliable, they keep using them and they are

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Speaker 2: not very neovative, so they are releasing lots of microplastics

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Speaker 2: to the rivers. By making technologies that target microplastics, then

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Speaker 2: the effluence will be much better. Our rivers will be

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Speaker 2: much better and the sea will have less microplastics, and

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Speaker 2: then the fish will be happier. At the moment, the

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Speaker 2: sediments of the oceans are a sink of microplastics, and

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Speaker 2: the fish that are near the sediments have high concentrations

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Speaker 2: of microplastics. And predators like tuna or shark, we have

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Speaker 2: been looking into them and they have relatively high concentrations

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Speaker 2: of microplastics. And this is a simple that the whole

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Speaker 2: process is not working at the moment because we are

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Speaker 2: pumping four hundred and eighteen tons of microplastics million tones.

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Speaker 2: Four hundred and eighteen million tones of microplastics every year

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Speaker 2: is what is being produced.

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Speaker 4: So we are accommodating a lot.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot.

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Speaker 3: But I'm glad you find some confidence that we could

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Speaker 3: remediate our challenges. But doctor Russell Basquetes, we appreciate your time.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for sharing the spotlight on micro and nanoplastics

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Speaker 3: and how it can come to bear in our lives

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Speaker 3: and in our house