Speaker 1: Quarter past four. Let's turn then to this conversation that
Speaker 1: I was speaking about a moment ago. Chris de beer
Speaker 1: is CEO at the Institute of Commercial Forensic Practitioners. As
Speaker 1: we highlighted yesterday, Paul Marfoll not the first person to
Speaker 1: be killed in the line of doing his duty trying
Speaker 1: to uncover financial malfeasans stealing of money from the public purse.
Speaker 1: Of course, there have been people who've been killed in
Speaker 1: pursuing exactly that, but with regard to companies and individuals
Speaker 1: in the private sector, Chris de Bierre, A very good
Speaker 1: afternoon to you, and thanks for giving us your time.
Speaker 1: We chat in tragic circumstances, but I'm sure these are
Speaker 1: things that you and your members have already exercised your
Speaker 1: mind on. How common are these kinds of threats to auditors,
Speaker 1: forensic investigators and has it been getting worse?
Speaker 2: Johnny R, thank you for opportunity, honor to be in
Speaker 2: I think you're starting point, and we must note that
Speaker 2: what color criminals are nature not very violent people. It's
Speaker 2: it's when you can involve to organized prime vestigation, high
Speaker 2: value of procurement, or tenning vedigations within the public sector.
Speaker 2: These styles type of this becomes prevalent. So in our
Speaker 2: environment is not a very frequent issue. If you didn't
Speaker 2: take a distinction between parent sector and privacy sector, intimidation, arasment,
Speaker 2: victimization so on, and threats made a kins for any practitioners.
Speaker 2: There's no is that's available. But we as we all
Speaker 2: know in what we've seen lately with pause killing, I
Speaker 2: think it was on Monday, and by the way he
Speaker 2: was he was on the Irish level of professionalism where
Speaker 2: he has designation, which is in Africa is ice level
Speaker 2: and we is tragically killed and we said for that.
Speaker 2: It seems to be more frequent in the public sector,
Speaker 2: in specifically in municipality area. In my Higlipkin in their
Speaker 2: investigations to all.
Speaker 1: So, mister Debier, take us a little bit into the process.
Speaker 1: I mean, do investigators know when they might have touched
Speaker 1: the nerve? Possibly they get a particular reaction to an
Speaker 1: inquiry or information is uncovered as they go about their
Speaker 1: work with scalpels and spades. I guess you need a
Speaker 1: bit of each. Do investigators know and say, okay, this
Speaker 1: is this could get rough, because I think we've got
Speaker 1: to the bottom of this.
Speaker 2: John by nature about training. We do a risk assessment
Speaker 2: before we engage do engagements and that nature, and we
Speaker 2: do assess that risk. So we're not we're not. These
Speaker 2: type of risks are prevalent environment. It happens from the
Speaker 2: day we used to these intermigration tactics, these threats that
Speaker 2: we receive. But while you doing listigation, you like you've asked,
Speaker 2: you get that feeling you do get and it's it's
Speaker 2: people that doesn't want to work with you, They don't
Speaker 2: want to provide information, They ignoring you. They you're not
Speaker 2: do not get to the bottom of scenes. You might
Speaker 2: get threatened, you might get harassed and so forth. But
Speaker 2: that's based on our risk ASSESSMENTIL we know what we're
Speaker 2: doing and we're used to doing this on a day
Speaker 2: to day basis.
Speaker 1: In terms of levels of protection, I mean your your
Speaker 1: your view. You stated very clearly, mister Debier at the beginning,
Speaker 1: much more of a risk in in the public sector
Speaker 1: should there be I mean, for example, will you, as
Speaker 1: the as the Institute be calling for higher levels of
Speaker 1: protection for for people who are doing auditing work, forensic work,
Speaker 1: working for the Order to General's office, and so on,
Speaker 1: because the numbers really are starting to mount up. There's,
Speaker 1: as I said yesterday, a shortage of budget or blue
Speaker 1: lights when it comes to VIRP protection. Do we need
Speaker 1: to start thinking a lot more seriously about looking after
Speaker 1: people trying to do the right thing in the public space.
Speaker 2: Don't agree with you. I think we certainly have to
Speaker 2: engage with government and as well as SAPs. We need
Speaker 2: to find a solution, and the industry is ready to
Speaker 2: collaborate with with those people. The industry is as developed
Speaker 2: for insian practice notes, where we tell our members how
Speaker 2: to protect themselves. We must go back one step as well.
Speaker 2: We've got three ready practitioners one side. We've got whistle
Speaker 2: blowers on sites and saf members, So whistle blowers are
Speaker 2: more likely to be threatened and even killed, and Ford
Speaker 2: practitioners the same way. SAS members or SIGH Risk area
Speaker 2: whistle bowsed and SAFS members. If you look at the
Speaker 2: statist six player lost in twenty twenty ten, I think
Speaker 2: there were a few cases of friendly practitioners being killed
Speaker 2: due to investigate and investigations some of them were and
Speaker 2: and it's important in case as well that we need
Speaker 2: the facts. I cannot assume that he's been killed because
Speaker 2: of his investigative work. It could be a personal market,
Speaker 2: so we need to put caution before that. Before we
Speaker 2: have the facts, we cannot assume, but certainly we have
Speaker 2: been engaging with government, we have been engaging with SAPs,
Speaker 2: and we know what the problem is. The solution, however,
Speaker 2: is not that simple. The topic sugest actor's got certain
Speaker 2: protection areas and obviously a for in petition working internally
Speaker 2: might also protection. If our member correctly in two times
Speaker 2: twenty four benedicts tally he's working for Janus book met
Speaker 2: police and JANPD Yes, yeah, and Hester requested protection. If
Speaker 2: he received that protection from from the council, I'm not sure,
Speaker 2: but there is that route that from the industry and
Speaker 2: a law enforcement area. We certainly need to do more.
Speaker 1: Chris to be a thank you CEO at the Institute
Speaker 1: of Commercial Forensic Practitioners