WEBVTT - Murders of corruption busters 

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<v Speaker 1>Quarter past four. Let's turn then to this conversation that

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<v Speaker 1>I was speaking about a moment ago. Chris de beer

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<v Speaker 1>is CEO at the Institute of Commercial Forensic Practitioners. As

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<v Speaker 1>we highlighted yesterday, Paul Marfoll not the first person to

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<v Speaker 1>be killed in the line of doing his duty trying

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<v Speaker 1>to uncover financial malfeasans stealing of money from the public purse.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, there have been people who've been killed in

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<v Speaker 1>pursuing exactly that, but with regard to companies and individuals

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<v Speaker 1>in the private sector, Chris de Bierre, A very good

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<v Speaker 1>afternoon to you, and thanks for giving us your time.

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<v Speaker 1>We chat in tragic circumstances, but I'm sure these are

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<v Speaker 1>things that you and your members have already exercised your

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<v Speaker 1>mind on. How common are these kinds of threats to auditors,

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<v Speaker 1>forensic investigators and has it been getting worse?

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<v Speaker 2>Johnny R, thank you for opportunity, honor to be in

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<v Speaker 2>I think you're starting point, and we must note that

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<v Speaker 2>what color criminals are nature not very violent people. It's

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<v Speaker 2>it's when you can involve to organized prime vestigation, high

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<v Speaker 2>value of procurement, or tenning vedigations within the public sector.

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<v Speaker 2>These styles type of this becomes prevalent. So in our

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<v Speaker 2>environment is not a very frequent issue. If you didn't

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<v Speaker 2>take a distinction between parent sector and privacy sector, intimidation, arasment,

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<v Speaker 2>victimization so on, and threats made a kins for any practitioners.

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<v Speaker 2>There's no is that's available. But we as we all

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<v Speaker 2>know in what we've seen lately with pause killing, I

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<v Speaker 2>think it was on Monday, and by the way he

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<v Speaker 2>was he was on the Irish level of professionalism where

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<v Speaker 2>he has designation, which is in Africa is ice level

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<v Speaker 2>and we is tragically killed and we said for that.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems to be more frequent in the public sector,

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<v Speaker 2>in specifically in municipality area. In my Higlipkin in their

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<v Speaker 2>investigations to all.

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<v Speaker 1>So, mister Debier, take us a little bit into the process.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, do investigators know when they might have touched

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<v Speaker 1>the nerve? Possibly they get a particular reaction to an

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<v Speaker 1>inquiry or information is uncovered as they go about their

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<v Speaker 1>work with scalpels and spades. I guess you need a

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<v Speaker 1>bit of each. Do investigators know and say, okay, this

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<v Speaker 1>is this could get rough, because I think we've got

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<v Speaker 1>to the bottom of this.

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<v Speaker 2>John by nature about training. We do a risk assessment

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<v Speaker 2>before we engage do engagements and that nature, and we

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<v Speaker 2>do assess that risk. So we're not we're not. These

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<v Speaker 2>type of risks are prevalent environment. It happens from the

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<v Speaker 2>day we used to these intermigration tactics, these threats that

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<v Speaker 2>we receive. But while you doing listigation, you like you've asked,

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<v Speaker 2>you get that feeling you do get and it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>people that doesn't want to work with you, They don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to provide information, They ignoring you. They you're not

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<v Speaker 2>do not get to the bottom of scenes. You might

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<v Speaker 2>get threatened, you might get harassed and so forth. But

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<v Speaker 2>that's based on our risk ASSESSMENTIL we know what we're

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<v Speaker 2>doing and we're used to doing this on a day

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<v Speaker 2>to day basis.

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<v Speaker 1>In terms of levels of protection, I mean your your

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<v Speaker 1>your view. You stated very clearly, mister Debier at the beginning,

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<v Speaker 1>much more of a risk in in the public sector

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<v Speaker 1>should there be I mean, for example, will you, as

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<v Speaker 1>the as the Institute be calling for higher levels of

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<v Speaker 1>protection for for people who are doing auditing work, forensic work,

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<v Speaker 1>working for the Order to General's office, and so on,

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<v Speaker 1>because the numbers really are starting to mount up. There's,

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<v Speaker 1>as I said yesterday, a shortage of budget or blue

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<v Speaker 1>lights when it comes to VIRP protection. Do we need

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<v Speaker 1>to start thinking a lot more seriously about looking after

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<v Speaker 1>people trying to do the right thing in the public space.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't agree with you. I think we certainly have to

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<v Speaker 2>engage with government and as well as SAPs. We need

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<v Speaker 2>to find a solution, and the industry is ready to

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<v Speaker 2>collaborate with with those people. The industry is as developed

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<v Speaker 2>for insian practice notes, where we tell our members how

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<v Speaker 2>to protect themselves. We must go back one step as well.

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<v Speaker 2>We've got three ready practitioners one side. We've got whistle

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<v Speaker 2>blowers on sites and saf members, So whistle blowers are

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<v Speaker 2>more likely to be threatened and even killed, and Ford

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<v Speaker 2>practitioners the same way. SAS members or SIGH Risk area

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<v Speaker 2>whistle bowsed and SAFS members. If you look at the

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<v Speaker 2>statist six player lost in twenty twenty ten, I think

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<v Speaker 2>there were a few cases of friendly practitioners being killed

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<v Speaker 2>due to investigate and investigations some of them were and

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<v Speaker 2>and it's important in case as well that we need

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<v Speaker 2>the facts. I cannot assume that he's been killed because

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<v Speaker 2>of his investigative work. It could be a personal market,

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<v Speaker 2>so we need to put caution before that. Before we

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<v Speaker 2>have the facts, we cannot assume, but certainly we have

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<v Speaker 2>been engaging with government, we have been engaging with SAPs,

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<v Speaker 2>and we know what the problem is. The solution, however,

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<v Speaker 2>is not that simple. The topic sugest actor's got certain

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<v Speaker 2>protection areas and obviously a for in petition working internally

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<v Speaker 2>might also protection. If our member correctly in two times

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<v Speaker 2>twenty four benedicts tally he's working for Janus book met

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<v Speaker 2>police and JANPD Yes, yeah, and Hester requested protection. If

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<v Speaker 2>he received that protection from from the council, I'm not sure,

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<v Speaker 2>but there is that route that from the industry and

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<v Speaker 2>a law enforcement area. We certainly need to do more.

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<v Speaker 1>Chris to be a thank you CEO at the Institute

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<v Speaker 1>of Commercial Forensic Practitioners