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Speaker 1: I am very very honored to know two recipients of

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Speaker 1: the World Press Photo Awards, one of them being a

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Speaker 1: friend in colleague is Shan Haffaji based out in joe Burgh,

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Speaker 1: but also a friend and colleague. Holden Krag is also

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Speaker 1: a win of the World Press Photo Awards, and this

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Speaker 1: morning we speak to him about this haunting image when

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Speaker 1: Giants four, which earned him recognition at the World Press

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Speaker 1: Photo Awards. It's a photograph that captures the final moments

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Speaker 1: of a herd of elephants during a government sanctioned cull

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Speaker 1: in Zimbabwe. Now, the culling took place in the Save

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Speaker 1: Valley Conservancy, where officials have argued that elephant populations far

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Speaker 1: exceed what the land can sustain. But that is this photograph,

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Speaker 1: if I can describe it for you, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: photograph taken from above elevated position, an aerial shot that

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Speaker 1: shows a dry, sparsely wooded landscape that's enclosed by long,

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Speaker 1: dark barriers, so it forms a rough perimeter. And inside

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Speaker 1: this enclosure is a herd of elephants and they're gathered

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Speaker 1: tightly together, some are standing close, They're clustered. You can

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Speaker 1: see some form of apparent distress, maybe even confusion. There's

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Speaker 1: plumes of dust that rise from the ground and along

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Speaker 1: the edge of this barrier. Our group of people standing

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Speaker 1: on on a truck in nearby vehicles watching and participating,

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Speaker 1: some of them with rifles for this now planned call.

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Speaker 1: Olden Krock joins me now on the land. Firstly, well done,

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Speaker 1: my friend, and it must mean a lot for you

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Speaker 1: to be recognized for your decades last long working in

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Speaker 1: press photography, news photography, but now in conservation as well.

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Speaker 1: Good morning morning.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Leska. Yeah, it's a big honor, you know,

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Speaker 2: to be recognized by the world press. And yet, like

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Speaker 2: you describe that photograph, it is one of those kind

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Speaker 2: of pictures that in my career I've never photographed something

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Speaker 2: like that, and so it is one of the more

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Speaker 2: emotional kind of assignments for that to do.

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Speaker 1: I've described it in a way that I can if

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Speaker 1: if I've not done it justice, In fact, I would

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Speaker 1: want to how do you describe that photograph of this

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Speaker 1: planned carl?

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Speaker 2: So that photograph, I mean, as far as I can

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Speaker 2: kind of ascertain, is one of the only photographs ever

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Speaker 2: taken has been actually shooting the elephant. So you'll see

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Speaker 2: in that photograph, the archie elephant that have already fallen,

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Speaker 2: and the plumes of smoke that you speak of is

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Speaker 2: actually the bullets hitting the ground as they either went

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Speaker 2: through the elephant or kind of missed the elephant. So

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Speaker 2: it is one of those very kind of yeah, noted images.

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Speaker 1: You have had years, decades experience in news press photography

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Speaker 1: where you've you've obviously seen the worst of human behavior,

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Speaker 1: humans being involved in violence, victims of violence. But how

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Speaker 1: does this particular photograph of animals seemingly in distress? Does

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Speaker 1: that affect you differently?

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Speaker 2: For me? Yeah, I know it's going to probably sound

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Speaker 2: horrible to some of the viewers or the listeners, but

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Speaker 2: covering a wall, covering kind of those kind of conflict

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Speaker 2: situations is a lot easier than covering this, because you

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Speaker 2: humans tend to have an understanding of what humans are like.

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Speaker 2: Where you know, I put myself in going back to

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Speaker 2: shooting that photograph, The elephants were twenty minutes before that

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Speaker 2: happily walk in though the bush, and now suddenly they

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Speaker 2: find themselves in a situation that is just, you know,

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Speaker 2: not something that they I don't think could have ever imagined. Now,

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Speaker 2: because I've been living there for so long, so it

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Speaker 2: is more difficult, definitely more difficult to cover this than

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Speaker 2: any conflict of that cover.

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Speaker 1: I do appreciate the the the arguments of the of

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Speaker 1: the governments of Zimbabwe and Bortsoana saying that conservation efforts

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Speaker 1: have worked so well that we now have the opposite problem,

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Speaker 1: too many elephants, and that colling programs, canned hunting programs

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Speaker 1: essentially what these what these are?

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Speaker 2: You know what?

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Speaker 1: It solves a problem of overpopulation but also could bring

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Speaker 1: a bit of revenue to the state. But you may

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Speaker 1: also accept that argument as well. But being a witness

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Speaker 1: and a document of that particular moment, which side are.

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Speaker 2: You then on? Yes, that's the difficult thing because you

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Speaker 2: as a kind of logical thinking human and I've seen

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Speaker 2: the devastation that these elephants due to the bush. That's

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Speaker 2: the likely kind of sidebar on this whole thing. So

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Speaker 2: you kind of understand that it has to happen in

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Speaker 2: a certain way. But it's still it's cuturnching, and I

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Speaker 2: mean it's apparently apparently this is a much better way

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Speaker 2: of doing it than what they've done before. So a

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Speaker 2: lot of the coals years ago in the Kruger Park

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Speaker 2: and all over Africa would just be fly over with

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Speaker 2: the helicopter and shoot what you can as you fly,

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Speaker 2: whereas here they take a lot of time and effort

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Speaker 2: to kind of get a family group together because they

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Speaker 2: don't want stragglers. They don't want a family member without

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Speaker 2: a group. Because they get they basically get just shined

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Speaker 2: by the rest of the elephants, so they take a

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Speaker 2: lot of time to get the elephant. They're like an

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Speaker 2: elephant group, like a compete family, and make sure that

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Speaker 2: they do it as humanly as possible. But that's still

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Speaker 2: it's not it's not great.

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Speaker 1: Holden's South Africa is as a as a rich history

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Speaker 1: of particularly photo journalists. I say congratulations not only you,

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Speaker 1: but also our colleague San Hafagi based in Joburg and

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Speaker 1: a photograph that he did for full ground up. It's

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Speaker 1: a beautiful image of pretty black South African girls in

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Speaker 1: the white two twos walking upstairs to the Joeburg Ballet School.

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Speaker 1: What is it within the South African press and media

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Speaker 1: d NA that we get honored often in such a

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Speaker 1: way obviously for our reportage, but in yours and exhance

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Speaker 1: case and many many others for our for our picture photography.

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Speaker 2: South African photographers are great storytellers. I mean, if you

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Speaker 2: take like you said, very rich history going all the

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Speaker 2: way back into like the sixties of winners, we are

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Speaker 2: able to tell a story in a very very powerful way.

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Speaker 2: So like a sance picture is an amazing image and

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Speaker 2: if you really, like, if you put it in context

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Speaker 2: for the story and the caption and all the rest

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Speaker 2: of it. Now it was a thing that wasn't wasn't

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Speaker 2: allowed or during the old days, you know, black dancers

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Speaker 2: weren't allowed to be in ballet and this whole kind

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Speaker 2: of walking up, walking up, going up to the to

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Speaker 2: the light. You know, no, it's a beautiful image, absolutely

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Speaker 2: beautiful image. And like I say, yeah, we're very good

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Speaker 2: story colors. I mean, you look at Chimbo Debby's amazing

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Speaker 2: image back in the day of the thief for the

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Speaker 2: cell phone and the gard with a gun in the

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Speaker 2: anyway and Johannesburg, you know, to you know, there's there's

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Speaker 2: hundreds of images that are just truly amazing.

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Speaker 1: Well truly amazing. For you Annik shan Holden Kroch, one

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Speaker 1: of the winners in the World Press Photo Awards. You

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Speaker 1: can go to world press photo dot org and go

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Speaker 1: scan through those images and lookout for particularly excellent halfa

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Speaker 1: g photographing for ground up and Holden Kroch and his

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Speaker 1: image as well,