Speaker 1: Well, let's focus our attention now on a real tragedy
Speaker 1: out in Ikuruleni, the murder of its forensic audit head,
Speaker 1: Paul Marfole, fatally shot in a drive by shooting that
Speaker 1: is taking place on the R twenty three in the
Speaker 1: late hours of Monday afternoon. This is something that has
Speaker 1: happened before. It's happened to a number of people. Babita
Speaker 1: Diorkaran is somebody who comes to mind, but there have
Speaker 1: been many, many others. Indeed, the two members of the
Speaker 1: Clutter family who were assassinated I think on the m
Speaker 1: one heading towards Pretoria, and there are others as well.
Speaker 1: What's going on here? Chad Thomas's CEO of IRS Forensic
Speaker 1: Investigations and very very familiar with the risks of doing
Speaker 1: this kind of work. Chat Thomas, Welcome and thanks very
Speaker 1: much for your time. Do you generally know when things
Speaker 1: are becoming dangerous and when the person that is being
Speaker 1: investigated with you doing the work might do something as
Speaker 1: evil and desperate as this? And I asked that question
Speaker 1: because people say, well, at what point, should for example,
Speaker 1: auditors in a government department start getting protection? Are there
Speaker 1: warning signs that really ought to be heated and can
Speaker 1: be clearly understood.
Speaker 2: Good oftening to you and the listeners. I think it's
Speaker 2: a very dangerous environment. It was something in the past
Speaker 2: where there was almost an unsaid respect between the underworld
Speaker 2: and those that try to enforce the law by investigating.
Speaker 2: They were hands off prosecutors were hands off magistrates, hands
Speaker 2: or investigators' hands off auditors or hands orf for this
Speaker 2: seems to have changed the dynamic. Nows. It's easier to
Speaker 2: sort out a problem with a bullet that it is
Speaker 2: to allow somebody to testify against you, to have an
Speaker 2: investigation progressed to the next stage, and you must understand
Speaker 2: what the state capacity issues. They are very reliant or
Speaker 2: reports by auditors, investigators and legal practic and it's those
Speaker 2: reports that guide them and are able to give them
Speaker 2: a roadmap as into watch a subpoena, the listed clothes
Speaker 2: of money where it went. So, Yes, the short and
Speaker 2: simple answer to your question is yes, auditors, investigators and
Speaker 2: other professionals in that space are now at risk.
Speaker 1: It's an alarming thing, isn't it. Because we heard earlier
Speaker 1: today Clement had people calling in and sharing experiences and
Speaker 1: they were talking. One of them was saying that a
Speaker 1: family member also had threats to their children for example.
Speaker 1: All of that I would think doesn't excuse a failure
Speaker 1: to protect, but it does suggest it's complicated.
Speaker 2: It is complicated because your investigators, your auditors, they don't
Speaker 2: qualify for witness protection. We've seen where a police officer
Speaker 2: who's investigating some serious, murderful higher cases involving some high
Speaker 2: profile names, is traveling around with the special task force
Speaker 2: they've been allocated to protect her. And it's a bizarre
Speaker 2: situation to see a police officer arriving with a special
Speaker 2: task force taking up positions to ensure her safety. She's
Speaker 2: a police officer, this is her vocation, this is what
Speaker 2: she does, but she now needs protection because she's doing
Speaker 2: her job. We as IRIS Friends Investigations, had an office
Speaker 2: invasion with a suspect and fifteen armed people in the
Speaker 2: early part of twenty nineteen. That case is still ongoing
Speaker 2: in court. Luckily the mastermind is behind bars. He wasn't
Speaker 2: given bail. But the escalation over the years just shows
Speaker 2: how embold and criminals have become. Because, like I said,
Speaker 2: at the outset of the inserts, there was this respect,
Speaker 2: there was a line that was never crossed. You never
Speaker 2: went for the tops, you never went for the prosecutors,
Speaker 2: and it now seems that that line is being crossed
Speaker 2: all the time.
Speaker 1: In terms of how the state can do this better.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's fair to say, Chad Thomas,
Speaker 1: that there is no shortage of VIP protection staff. You
Speaker 1: just have to look at the budgets. You can also
Speaker 1: look at the blue lights that are coming up fast
Speaker 1: behind you and say that these resources are available. From
Speaker 1: what you know, I mean, does the state prioritize in
Speaker 1: any way people who are corruption busters and offer them
Speaker 1: I don't know if they would be from the VIP
Speaker 1: Protection unit, but presumably some division of the police ought
Speaker 1: to have capacity and commitments on this. Well.
Speaker 2: We're seeing this now. I mentioned to the investigating officer
Speaker 2: in some high profile murder for higher cases, she has
Speaker 2: a detailed special force of special Taskforce members that are
Speaker 2: looking after her and her team. We're see more and
Speaker 2: more where organizations are creating a protection bubble around the investigators,
Speaker 2: around their auditors. We're seeing it moving a lot in
Speaker 2: the private sector. We've see municipalities and metros doing it.
Speaker 2: But from a capacity perspective, one looks at Chaltoner. There
Speaker 2: were stories that he was meant to have been protected
Speaker 2: because he was investigating the gang Underworld. He was meant
Speaker 2: to have a close protection detail looking ouk him at
Speaker 2: all times. That didn't materialize, and if you think about
Speaker 2: the levels of time in South Africa, there's just not
Speaker 2: enough people to offer that kind of protection. We see
Speaker 2: white life brigades now where the rich and famous can
Speaker 2: employ these brigades of security officers to protect them from
Speaker 2: kidnapping and extortion. But when it comes to the actual investigators,
Speaker 2: there's a reluctance on the part of the state, but
Speaker 2: also a capacity issue on the part of the states
Speaker 2: to extend the resources of protection.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Chad Thomas of IRAS Forensic Investigations