1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Join us, let's walk the talk. This is seven o 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: two and talking now about something quite quite significant that's 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: going to change the way we do things in our country. 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: So African's embarking on a ball transformation of its citizenship, 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: immigration and refugee systems. This follows cabinets approval of the 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: revised White Paper. The White Paper introduces sweeping changes to 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: refugee management, citizenship processes, visa categories very important, and civil registration. 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: Joining us is doctor Leon Schreiber, who's the Minister of 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: Home Affairs. But it's a high good morning and welcome 10 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: to seven oh two. 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: It's good morning, very good money to the listeners. 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: Good to have you with us. Right, these appear to 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: be sweeping changes. I think let's start with explain the 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: first safe country principle. It's a major shift in refuge 15 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: g management. Can you walk us through that. There are 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: so many changes, but there are something that are quite significant, 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: and so let's start with the first safe country principle. 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: Yes, So this is really in the domain of refugee 19 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: management and the goal here is to bring about a 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 2: more equitable sharing of the burden that goes with asylum 21 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: seekers and refugees throughout the region. I think what we've 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 2: seen over many years is that there is a phenomenon 23 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: of people picking and choosing South Africa as the only 24 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 2: destination where they want to submit a claim for asylum, 25 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 2: and that really is taking a toll on our society. 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: So what we are saying here is that within the 27 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 2: rules of the UN conventions, within the way in which 28 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: these systems operate in other parts of the world, that 29 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 2: South Africa is also going to take a bit of 30 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: a toughest stance to say that if you've gotten asylum 31 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: in a different country, or if you have traveled through 32 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 2: multiple safe countries that qualify in terms of those UN instruments, 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: that we are not going to thence the situation where 34 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: we are the destination of choice. Because by definition, if 35 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 2: you are a refugee, you are fleeing for your life, 36 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: you are fleeing persecution and imminent threats, and so we 37 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: believe this is a very important instrument. We've seen it 38 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: working in parts of Europe where there's agreements with countries 39 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: like Turkey to bring about that more equitable sharing of 40 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: the resources that ultimately go into upholding a refugee and 41 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: asylum seeker right. So we will have to enter into 42 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: bilateral agreements with our neighboring countries, will have to designate 43 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 2: those countries that are safe. Of course, you cannot send 44 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: a refugee into danger or to another area where they 45 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 2: will be persecuted. But I think this really is a 46 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: signature reform in this domain that really is going to 47 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: help serve South Africa's interest BEECTI yeah, all. 48 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: Right, okay, so those are refugees and you can't just 49 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: choose how that forget you're going to go through say Botswana, 50 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 1: which is a safe country. Okay, Now, these Citizenship Advisory Panel, 51 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: the CAP, this is a key part of the new system. 52 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: What is the it or function? Is there a points 53 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: based system? Somebody wants to come to our country, they 54 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: want to be a citizen, How does that work? 55 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 2: Well, I think what we are trying to solve for 56 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 2: here is the arbitrary, subjective and often highly inefficient process 57 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: that goes where things like citizenship applications. So the general 58 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,679 Speaker 2: principle we want to introduce there is one of objectivity, 59 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 2: one of merit based assessment, and as you say, using 60 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: a points based system is the clearest way to do that. 61 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: We already have seen a points based system work when 62 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 2: it comes to some of the work visas and some 63 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 2: of the reforms that Operation bulind Lela proposed and which 64 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: we implemented. And we are now bringing that same concept 65 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 2: to citizenship permanent residence applications. And once again what you 66 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 2: see there is a stronger focus on what serves South 67 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: Africa's best interest. In other words, is this immigrant again, now, 68 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: as you say, this is different from a refugee, this 69 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: is a voluntary immigrant. Are they contributing to South Africa 70 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: in a positive way? Are they helping to grow they 71 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 2: or they making a social contribution? And then we start 72 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: getting into a much more objective system, so the Citizenship 73 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: Advisory Panel does not leave it then fully to the 74 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: minister's discretion. We saw during the State capture years how 75 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: Home Affairs was abused to aid the guptas illegally. So 76 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: and so this will really bring that level of objectivity 77 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 2: into the system. And I think important to say, not 78 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 2: only will it reduce phenomenons where we see people simply 79 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: waiting out the time, they basically just wait long enough 80 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: where they kind of feel like they are now entitled 81 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 2: to citizenship, but on the other hand, it will actually 82 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: allow us to grant citizenship more quickly to people who 83 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: genuinely are contributing to South Africa, so that helps us, 84 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: i think, strike the right balance on the immigration front. 85 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's also this white paper introducing this annual window 86 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: period for citizenship applications, so that will also streamline things. 87 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 2: That's very important from an administrative point of view. We've 88 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: looked at other countries and how their interior ministries handle, 89 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 2: you know, the volumes of these kind applications that come, 90 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 2: and South Africa has been really inundated by applications in 91 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: the sense that we don't know as Home Affairs how 92 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: many citizenship applications we will receive. In it particularly, it's 93 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: completely arbitrary. It depends on how many applications they are. 94 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 2: So what we're looking at now is to say, okay, 95 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 2: you can still apply for citizenship, of course, but let's 96 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: make a window between the beginning of January for example, 97 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 2: and the end of March. That's when the applications come in. 98 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: Then we know how many we've received. There's more predictability 99 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: and we can have a better commitment in terms of 100 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 2: turnaround times because we can say now x number of 101 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: applications have been received and you can expect an outcome 102 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: within set number of months. 103 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, looking at the people visiting us, we've had this 104 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: ninety day rule where someone say from the UK comes 105 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: to South Africa, they can stay there for ninety days 106 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,239 Speaker 1: then they need to go home. Does that say the same? 107 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 2: Does that change in principle? Yes, of course, as you know, 108 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: there is a possibility to extend that tourist visa by 109 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 2: another ninety days. That's an administrative process and we are 110 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 2: really working hard. On the other side of this vis 111 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: are policy and legislative reforms. But on the other side 112 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: there's obviously implementation, and so the electronic Travel Authorization system 113 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: that we rolled out the phase one for ahead of 114 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: the G twenty meeting is really the key instrument that 115 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: we will then use to digitalize the visa process, whether 116 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 2: that's a tourist visa or a more complex visa. That's 117 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: what we're really using to close the space for corruption 118 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,559 Speaker 2: and fraud, but also to ensure efficiency and turnaround times, 119 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 2: you know, using machine learning to verify, etc. And the 120 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 2: advantage that this has even for a tourist is the 121 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 2: process of extending. If you want to extend another ninety days, 122 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: we know there are people who spend money here, who 123 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 2: help create jobs. It becomes a much more painless process 124 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: to actually get those kinds of extensions. But more broadly, 125 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: I think it's important to say we are having a 126 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: big relook at our visa categories themselves. In the past, 127 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: we have not, I think, had the space to att 128 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 2: as things change globally. Just think about COVID and how 129 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 2: that introduced this whole phenomenon of working from home or 130 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: remote work, and there are economic opportunities for us there 131 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,679 Speaker 2: as well, as much as we're clamping down on fraud 132 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: and abuse, bringing in a degree of flexibility and modernization 133 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: to the visa categories themselves, introducing things like sports and 134 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: culture visas. You know, if there's a big sporting tournament, 135 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 2: people need visas quickly, if someone gets injured and they 136 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: need it for a short period. So these are the 137 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 2: kind of things that post challenges in the past. Now 138 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: I think we're going to use our visa system more effectively. Again, 139 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: as I say, what are South Africa's interests when we 140 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: assess this visa and making sure those are paramounts. 141 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's the whole thing. Gosh, changing the 142 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: face of home affairs and the way things have been, Menessa, 143 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. So do appreciate 144 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: you taking the. 145 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: Time, great pleasure to be with you. Have a good day. 146 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: Thank you two. That's doctor Lyon Schreiber. He's our minisot 147 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: of Home Affairs.