1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Hanging out with Clement on two Let's walk the talk 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: and on our hanging out future this morning. I'm really 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: excited to be hanging out with a powerhouse. Dr Mzamo Masito, 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: the author of This Country Hates Our Boys. I'm sure 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 1: you've seen this book at Exclusive Books. You've seen a 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: lot of people have been talking about it. He's the 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: founder of African man Care. He's a marketing genius. Really. 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: His career spans global brands like Unilever, Nike, voter Com, Google, 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: you name it. At some point he was the chief 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: brand Officer for Nike Africa Nike Africa, where he was 11 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: responsible for developing and implementing the company's successful brand position 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: for the twenty ten World Cup. But he's really someone 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 1: who's shaped the world's most powerful and best known brands, 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 1: and I'm so glad to have him join us on 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: the show this morning. Drm Zama Masito, Welcome to the show. 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: Good morning, good morning, thank you very much, thank you 17 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: for making tambras. So do you are you? 18 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: Do you? 19 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: Are you a person who likes being called Dr Mosito 20 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: or are you chilled with a oom Zamo? Because you've 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: worked really hard for this. Hey so I get. 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 3: It now, I'm okay with I'm okay when when someone 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 3: says doctor, that's also true, that's okay. 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: Okay, got you all right? I want us to start 25 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: in the beginning because the whole idea of the hanging 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: Out feature is for us to get to know you 27 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: much better. We sort of have an idea of your 28 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: professional contribution, which will get to you at some point, 29 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: and we'll talk about the book as well. But we 30 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: want to know who is the man behind Dr Zamo Mosito. 31 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: So let's start with where you grew up. Did you 32 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: grow up in Googuletu or Kayacha or Valla Park? 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: What is it I grew up. 34 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: I was born in ekuglt Ok and I was supposed 35 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 3: to be those kids who I was supposed to have 36 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 3: been helped by a midwife at home forty three number 37 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 3: twenty two Native Yard forty three twenty number twenty two, 38 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 3: but didn't happen. I ended up at Rotieskill Hospital because 39 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 3: I was a bridge baby, and so they rushed me 40 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 3: to Rotiskill. So I was born a kuglid who I 41 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 3: grew up in Vahallapag and then I was sent to 42 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 3: the Eastern Cape with my brother in a village called 43 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 3: a Cric those days, it was called Middle Drift, and 44 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 3: then we came back and then we moved to Kailich 45 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 3: and then I finished all of my high school in Kayleech. 46 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, So how how did moving between those very different 47 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 1: spaces shaped the way you understand community and belonging from 48 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: that early age? 49 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 3: I guess because we grew up under up date and 50 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: wrapped in poverty. So you you kind of earlier or 51 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 3: know that to be communal. 52 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: Helps with survival. 53 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 3: So if you're not communal and highly individualistic, you don't 54 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: go father. You might go faster, but you don't go further. 55 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 3: So that's the first thing I think. Then people call 56 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 3: it umunt So then the second part, though, you also 57 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 3: realize that poverty doesn't always breed violence. Because I grew 58 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 3: up amongst a lot of poor people, they were not 59 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 3: always violent. But inequality, man, that's really bad. I remember 60 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 3: when I lived in a shak and then the guy 61 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 3: came from Balsmore Prison and he built a double story 62 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 3: shack in this informat settlement, like the biggest double story shack. 63 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: That act alone created these single inequality and now there's competition, 64 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 3: so it made me realize that actually it is inequality 65 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 3: to relative deprivation that is our biggest challenge in the 66 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 3: spaces I grew up, and it's when we start comparing 67 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: and you look at relative to someone, then it increases aggression, 68 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 3: competition reduces social trust. Now we're not united, we're competing. 69 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 3: So that was the key lesson for me. 70 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you then start developing interest in blending 71 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: and marketing? At what point did you think, oh, I'm 72 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: actually quite a creative person. This is what I'm interested in, 73 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: and I could actually make a career out of this. 74 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: I don't know. 75 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,119 Speaker 3: In my case, I'm those kids who was not born 76 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 3: clear what they want to be, So I'm not like 77 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 3: these kids from a day. From a young age, I 78 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 3: knew exactly what I wanted to be. I kind of 79 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 3: had an idea actually that maybe I wanted to be 80 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 3: a priest or preacher, and a teacher and a therapist. 81 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 3: Those three appealed more to me. But when I got 82 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 3: to university, I wanted to consider teaching and becoming an academic. 83 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 3: And then when I got paid my first paycheck, I 84 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 3: realized that teachers don't get paid much. And it was 85 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 3: a passion, but it was not going to help me. 86 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 3: I wanted to buy my mom a house. That was 87 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 3: like one of my number one goals, and if I 88 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 3: had a teacher salary, I didn't think it was going 89 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 3: to be possible. So when I went to the lecturer, 90 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 3: I asked him for advice, and he said to me, 91 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 3: you very good people behavior or you love people. So 92 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 3: there is a discipline called marketing behavioral science insights. 93 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 2: Maybe you should explore that. 94 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 3: And that's how I got into marketing behavioral science and insights. 95 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: And you never regretted it. You enjoyed it ever since. Now, 96 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: I never what happened to the age to be a 97 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: pastor to be a teacher teacher? 98 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 3: I the teacher part was much easier because I could 99 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: continue teaching part time. 100 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 2: So I continued teaching. 101 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 3: Whether it be a Triple A or UCIT or any 102 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 3: of the other institutions. So I thought either night classes 103 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 3: or business school or so that continued. So I didn't 104 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: stop that much. So with teaching, but with the preacher part, 105 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 3: I kind of just didn't. After being all the boy, 106 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 3: I thought, no, let me not do that. 107 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: What happened then? What traumatized you that much? 108 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: Weird thing? I have a this. 109 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 3: You know, like very few men now go to churches, 110 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 3: especially like Anglican, Methodist, Catholic, you know, like your Orthodox 111 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: Christian churches, old ones, there's very few. I noticed eighty 112 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 3: percent plus of attendance now are women or females, And 113 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: I just don't know. My relationship with the church trust 114 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 3: declined and from then on I just struggle to see 115 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 3: that being something I want to do. 116 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: Or maybe you were the one that was going to 117 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: re establish that trust because generally, in fact, I think 118 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: I've looked at research that shows that just generally across 119 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: the board, the trust even in institution like churches, has declined. 120 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: And maybe you needed to be that pastor that comes 121 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: back and there's a revival and you get us to 122 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: trust again. 123 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 3: You know, I wanted the kind of religion I like, 124 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 3: even when I was growing up, I didn't understand why 125 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 3: we are so divided. I think if I were to 126 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 3: ever be a priest or preacher, I will be advocating 127 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: for Pentheism, like where I unite religions and I take 128 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 3: something from Judaism, I take something from Islam, from Christianity, 129 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 3: for Hinduism, Buddhasim, you name it, and I combined it, 130 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 3: and I converge them into one religion, but also most 131 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 3: of my religion and preaching. We will be going out 132 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 3: there doing things. We won't spend too much time preaching 133 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 3: and talking. We'll be doing more than talking. I feel 134 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 3: like God has been made a pulpit thing, but not 135 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 3: a doing thing. So I just want more doing and 136 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 3: less talking. 137 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, amen, Pasta, you see you sound like the kind 138 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: of religious leader that we need right now. Okay, we're 139 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: gonna play some of your favorite songs as well, but 140 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: before we get to the song, what's been your experience 141 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: working for some of the most powerful conglomerates, I mean 142 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: the brands you've worked for, Unileva, Nike, voter Coom, you 143 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: name it, Google. What have you taken away from that 144 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: that's different from what you experience when you worked for 145 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: like just the local companies here at home. What was 146 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: so different about these global brands? Would you say? 147 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 3: The most important thing is that every time I was 148 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 3: either be a Nike or Google or it was, you 149 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 3: should be able to have the ability to see it 150 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: or see the problem, solve it, and most importantly, scale it. 151 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 3: So the biggest thing was can you scale ideas and 152 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 3: can you think local and global and can you do both? 153 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 3: Can you invent an idea locally but quickly scale it 154 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 3: to the rest of the world. And that was actually 155 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 3: something that I enjoyed, and it's something that also helped 156 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: me broad in my own horizon. The second part was 157 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 3: you need to get out of your country, so there 158 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: was a lot of push on. I worked in India, 159 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 3: I lived in India, I lived in the US, I 160 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: lived in the UK, so there was a lot of 161 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 3: get out, broaden your horizon, see the world. So that 162 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 3: for me, I would say, was those two were most 163 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 3: beneficial to me. 164 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: How was it living I mean across all these different 165 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: I mean India, I mean you're in Asia, You're in there, Americas, 166 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: you're in Europe. Where did you enjoy living in the most? 167 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: Oh? 168 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 3: India for me was a mind puzzled, like it was, 169 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 3: you know you when I left South Africa. I went 170 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 3: to India thinking that I grew up poor. And then 171 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 3: I am in India and Mumbai and Bangalore and I'm 172 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: there and I realized that, oh my goodness, there's there's 173 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 3: different levels of poverty, and all of a sudden, I 174 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 3: am no longer unhappier about my poverty. I'm like, Okay, God, 175 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 3: I'll take that. This over late supervity, over this one. 176 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 3: I'm now trading all of a sudden And the best 177 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,719 Speaker 3: gift that India gave me was that Ever since then, 178 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 3: I never really complained much about my upbringing because I 179 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 3: sought deprivation and scarcity at another ten x level than 180 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 3: I've ever seen. And the second thing with India is 181 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 3: for the first time, I was with some of the 182 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 3: most smartest people on Earth, and they were really bright, 183 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 3: really smart, and it's like, you have to up your game, 184 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 3: you have to think harder, solve harder problems, all of that. 185 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 3: So that also helped a lot because India gave me 186 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 3: more confidence that oh I can think, Oh I can 187 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 3: solve problem. Oh I'm actually smart. Oh I didn't think 188 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 3: I am. So that was India for me. 189 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 2: The US. 190 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 3: The greatest gift the US for me gave me. I 191 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 3: was seventeen when I first got there, and I remember 192 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 3: going to a place called Anacostia, which was black projects place, 193 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 3: and I remember going there and I got robbed when 194 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 3: I got there, and I was like, oh, this feels familiar, 195 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 3: which was bad because I shouldn't have said it. Feels familiar, 196 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: but I realized that actually poverty criminalizes people. And then 197 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 3: I went inside the church and for the first time, 198 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: the church had the Jesus Christ in his twelve disciples, 199 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 3: and they were all black, and even Jesus had dreadlocks 200 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 3: and he is in long red. Wait, it is an 201 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 3: Acostia in the US, it SAIDs a church in Anacostia 202 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 3: in Washington, DC. And I looked up and I was 203 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 3: so shocked. And I had never seen Jesus with dreadlocks, 204 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 3: with round nose, peach black like from Seneca black. And 205 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 3: the disciples had conros, afros, all. 206 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 2: Of that, Like I was so confused, cheese, corb, you 207 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: name it. 208 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 3: Like that was so and that for me was one 209 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 3: of the greatest gifts I got from there, because it 210 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 3: was a mind decolonizer for me, because I said it 211 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 3: out loud inside the church and I said it can't be. 212 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 3: And then this old man came to me and he says, 213 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 3: why not, young blood, Why can't God in your own image? 214 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 3: And why can't Jesus be in your own image? And 215 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 3: what textbooks have you been reading anyway? Don't you hear 216 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 3: the Bible? Read the Bible? They talk about people with 217 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 3: wooly hair. Where do you think those people came from? 218 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 3: Where do you think the countries they mentioned in the 219 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: Bible are? Which continent were they in it? I was like, oh, 220 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 3: my goodness, I'm ignorant. So that was the second lesson 221 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 3: for me that the higher your ignorance, also the higher 222 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 3: your low self your self esteem, the lower your self 223 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 3: esteem it is as well. Also the higher your ignorance, 224 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 3: the higher your own prejudice self prejudice as well. Where 225 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 3: So that also helped me that I must do a 226 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 3: lot of work reducing my ignorance about my own people 227 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 3: and about myself. 228 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: Do you think that experience is actually what sets you 229 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: off that explorative journey in as far as your belief 230 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: system's religion is concerned, because you've really gone on a seeking, 231 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: you know journey. I know you've traveled a lot to 232 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: you know, Buddhism to try and understand other religions. How 233 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: did that experience how trigger you know that journey that 234 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: you then started going on. Was it a major factor? 235 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: Yes? 236 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 3: Indeed, Like I mean, when I lived in India, I 237 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: spent a lot of time with Hindu monks trying to 238 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 3: understand Hinduism and understanding the Hindu gods and then understanding 239 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: how did Hinduism give bath to Buddhism and who is 240 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 3: Siddhartha and who became Buddha, where did he come from, 241 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 3: where was he born? And all of that, And then 242 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 3: how do these two religions compare to Christianity, Judaism, Islam. 243 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 3: Then I'll go to a mosque and understand Islam and 244 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 3: understand Prophet Mohammad Blest be thy name. And I go 245 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 3: to Christian Church when I was an altar boy from 246 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 3: primary school all the way to end of high school 247 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:02,479 Speaker 3: and understand Christianity, Orthodox who or born again of Angelical Christianity. 248 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 3: So all of these You're right in that it just 249 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 3: cemented or increased my curiosity towards understanding God versus religion 250 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 3: and understanding why do we have so many religions and 251 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 3: why can't we have one if there's one God? 252 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so fascinating. Okay, Now tell me about Donny Hathaway 253 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: A sec Full of Dreams. Why is this one of 254 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: your favorite songs? 255 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 3: Ah, It's it's like my dream song, like how what 256 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 3: I want from the world And it's a it's a 257 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: my idealism. I'm highly I'm an idealist at had I'm 258 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 3: not that much pragmatic. I think I'm too idealistic. And 259 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 3: that song don'ly has a way for me, exemplifies someone 260 00:15:54,440 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 3: who really felt the world, emotionally and deeply felt the world, 261 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 3: and no wonder he committed suicide. And so I love 262 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 3: the song and it expresses my wish for the world. 263 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: And it expresses my wish for a world where we're 264 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 3: more communal, where we more relational with each other, and 265 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 3: where we help each other but also hold each other accountable, 266 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 3: where we balance the I and the Wii, then the 267 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 3: eye can be expressed, but also the Wei it also exists. 268 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 3: So it's a really for me. My idealism is in 269 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 3: that song. 270 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: All right, here's drm Zama Masito's wish for the world. 271 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: Hanging out with Clement. 272 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 4: Let's walk the talky. 273 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: It's twenty five minutes before eleven old log. This is 274 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: our hanging out feature, and today we're hanging out with 275 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: dot term zam Or Massito, the author of this country 276 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: hates our boys. He is a marketing and brand genius 277 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: and we're getting to know him better this morning on 278 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: our hanging out feature. I see some of your messages 279 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: coming through suppose a slimmon thank you for hosting this 280 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: man here really is a legend of note when it 281 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: comes to branding and marketing. Tabo also sirs Clement. Dr 282 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: Massito describes himself as a maverick thanks to the seven 283 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: zero to be a mentor campaign. I got an hour 284 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: with Dr Marsito. What an amazing guy. His story is 285 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: just inspiring. That's a message from Tabo there on Twitter 286 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,199 Speaker 1: as well. Dr Marsito, I want us to get to 287 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 1: your book now, this country hates our boys. It's really 288 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: been interesting the kind of conversation that started as a 289 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: result of you launching this book. Can I just get 290 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: first clarity around what conversation were you trying to start 291 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 1: with this book? This country hates our boys? And do 292 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: you think from the conversations you've had and seen and 293 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: that's exactly what's happened. 294 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: Definitely. 295 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 3: My intention was to raise awareness, orn't raise a flag, 296 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 3: to say that boys South African boys, particularly black and colored, 297 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 3: are failing at school and falling behind in this in society. 298 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 3: And the last piece was to say that men are 299 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 3: struggling and grounded on narratives and stories and data, and 300 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 3: so that was really the first thing was just too 301 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 3: and then the second part was to say that gender 302 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 3: empathy and gender equality should not be a zero sum game, 303 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 3: and we can empower both girls and boys, and we 304 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 3: don't have to make it a zero sum game. And 305 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: at the moment we in the last thirty years, we've 306 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 3: made amazing progress in empowering girls, particularly in areas around 307 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 3: education held even a world of wag, and yet we've 308 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 3: also dropped the ball on not noticing that the boy 309 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 3: is falling behind. So that's really at the heart of 310 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 3: the book is to say that please, let us always 311 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 3: make sure that no one is left behind and no 312 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 3: child is left behind, and that this gender equality and 313 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 3: gender empathy is not as zero something. 314 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: And I've seen in the conversations that I've picked up 315 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: on social media about the book, was I mean, some 316 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: people use the analogy of like endangered species for instance. 317 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: You know, take the rhino for instance, and if there's 318 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: concern around the rhino, doesn't necessarily mean that you don't 319 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: care about all the other animals. You care about the 320 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: rhino because it's endangered. What do you say to that 321 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: argument that, of course, the advancement of and the protection 322 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: of women and prioritizing them is because of what we 323 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: I've seen women be subjected to you, and not so 324 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: much because we don't care about the men themselves. 325 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 3: What I'm advocating for is for us to have an 326 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 3: ability to have dialectical maturity where we are able to 327 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 3: use the word yes end or we are able to 328 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 3: use and rather than either or, And in this case, 329 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 3: we should continue advocating for empowering women and girls. That 330 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 3: should not stop. We should continue. It's the right thing 331 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 3: to do. If we want to be an egalitarian society 332 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 3: and equal society, a rainbow nation, we should continue. Yet 333 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 3: we also have a responsibility and duty to see who 334 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 3: is falling behind and also make sure that we bring 335 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 3: that to everyone's attention that hey, watch out this audience 336 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 3: or segment which is in this case predominantly it's black 337 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 3: boys and colored boys. They are falling behind. And that's factual, 338 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 3: and it's not just emotional. It's actually a fact that 339 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 3: they are falling behind and failing even at school. 340 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm. And I know through your organization, you know 341 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: African men care. You've worked directly with boys young men. 342 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: What has surprised you the most about the emotional worlds 343 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: of these boys and young men that society often overlooks. 344 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 3: The first one for me is what in psychology we 345 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 3: call alexi daimir. Where you have words without emotions, where 346 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 3: you are emotionally stunted, you can express a feeling and emotion. 347 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 3: And the majority of boys, including adult males, actually, when 348 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 3: you ask a boy or an adult male, how are 349 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 3: you feeling or how did it make you feel? That 350 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 3: is the most difficult question for a boy or an 351 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 3: adult male to answer an answer with where that have 352 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 3: emotions and feelings. So it's then if you can't express 353 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 3: it in words, then you're probably more likely going to 354 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 3: express it physically, and you're going to express it violently. 355 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 3: You're going to express it in rage and in anger. 356 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 3: So there's a lot of emotional stunting of males actually 357 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 3: and boys at a young age. And I also the 358 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 3: issue around like boys get hugged and told they are 359 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 3: a lot less and run about age five or six 360 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 3: because now they are being prepared to be a man. 361 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 2: They are not being prepared to be a whole human. 362 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: They are prepared to be a man, say, and we 363 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 3: forget that they must first be human before they are men. 364 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 3: So that's also then the other piece for me that 365 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 3: surprised me is the majority of boys who think school 366 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 3: or education is useless and that they will rather be 367 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 3: doing crypto gambling. 368 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 2: Trading for eggs. And that's also. 369 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 3: Alarming to me that the country in the education system 370 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 3: has not done an amazing job to show that actually 371 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 3: education is useful. Because if you go and interview majority 372 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 3: of girls, they believe that education is useful and helpful. 373 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 3: But for some reason now I'm starting to see a 374 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 3: majority of boys who don't think education is useful and helpful. 375 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: How do we then teach young men to express their feelings? 376 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: Where do you think that is going to begin? Because 377 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: what I find interesting is You've got often when we 378 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: talk about men who commit suicide, and women would call 379 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: in on the show and say, yeah, but you know, 380 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: you guys have to be vulnerable with us. You have 381 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: to speak and be honest about how you feel. But 382 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: I've also had women who call in on the show 383 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: and who say, well, it's actually awkward for your men 384 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: to be crying on you because of a hectic day 385 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: that they've had. And I would often ask myself, Okay, 386 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: what exactly do you want? Then? Do you want to 387 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: support men in their vulnerability or are you centering yourself 388 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: and thinking, I don't want a man who's going to 389 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: come and cry after a tough day at work. So 390 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 1: do you want us to be vulnerable or not? So 391 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm asking that because you're right, even our mothers, it's 392 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 1: not just our fathers who don't tell us they love 393 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: us often because they're thinking we're building men here who 394 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: must be brave and tough. But even our mothers sort 395 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: of don't. They think that they make us quote unquote 396 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: soft when they tell you they love you. So how 397 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: do we get society to learn to actually appreciate young 398 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: men just as much and get them to feel and 399 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: to be shown those feelings. 400 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 3: This is really valid in that we, all of us, 401 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 3: we are trapped in the old archaic traditional norms, the 402 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 3: masculinity norms, the feminine norms, all of us with prisoners 403 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 3: of those old norms. So we will define a man 404 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 3: only on provision and protection, We will define a woman 405 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 3: only on naturing and raising kids, or in the kitchen 406 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 3: cook These are all normative, old traditional norms, and the 407 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 3: context has changed, but those have not changed, so we're stuck. 408 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 3: So there's a discussion that needs to be had as 409 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 3: a society on what does now mean to be masculine, 410 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 3: what does it mean to be feminine now? Given the 411 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 3: new context, we haven't had a lot of that debate 412 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 3: and discussion. And then the second one for me is 413 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 3: it's not just redefining what it means to be masculine 414 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 3: or feminine, what it means to be a man or 415 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 3: a woman now. Then the second part as well is 416 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 3: I remember when I went to therapy at age twenty 417 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 3: two twenty three. The therapist said to me, the first 418 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 3: ten sessions, you didn't use any emotional words, and the 419 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 3: only emotion you know is anger. You don't know that 420 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 3: there are seven other primal emotions, and she gave me 421 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 3: an emotional wheel because I was actually emotionally stunted. I 422 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 3: suffered from alexidaimir. I couldn't express words with emotions, and 423 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 3: then I had to be trained to have words with emotions. 424 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 3: The argument I make then is that girls don't come 425 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 3: out of their mother's womb with the skill. It's socialized 426 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: in them. Therefore it can also be socialized in boys. 427 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 3: The fact that girls by the time they are six 428 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 3: or eight have over a hundred words they can use, 429 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 3: if not a thousand words to express a feeling and 430 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 3: emotion that was not just by accident, it was also socialized. 431 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 3: So the same thing that can happen with boys for example. 432 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 3: Now I'm advocating that why can't we have these social 433 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 3: wheels or emotional wheels where a boy gets to practice 434 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 3: What feeling are you feeling? Name it? 435 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: Here? Words? 436 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 3: Here, a hundred words you can use to name a feeling. 437 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 3: Because we have to be thought. We're not just gonna 438 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 3: wake up and have it. Someone has to teach us 439 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 3: just as much as most things in this life we 440 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 3: have been thought. So we have to be socialized into 441 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 3: emotional words so that we are able to express feelings 442 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 3: and emotions clearly. 443 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: M hmm yeah, who yeah, that's so powerful. I've got 444 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: a number of messages coming through here. Anti antil he 445 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: end on the watsupline says High Clement, this man is 446 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: definitely a priest, a priest. He sought God everywhere in 447 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: an effort to get to know all sides of him. 448 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: That's a message from Antilee. And then UTB on the 449 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: whats upline also says, good morning Clement, and the good doctor. 450 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: I'm happy you are getting into doctor Masito's book, I 451 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: would like him to address the concept of toxic masculinity 452 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: and how using these two words together is actually a misnormal. 453 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: I'm asking the doctor to repeat it, because never in 454 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: my life have I had somebody explain the false evidence 455 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: called toxic masculinity so succinctly as he did before, and 456 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: hearing more often is beneficial for men's mental health compared 457 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: to how mainstream mass media exploits and abuses this unfortunate term. 458 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: Thank you for breaking new ground, doctor Masito, and that 459 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,920 Speaker 1: beautiful lesson in music as well. That's a message there 460 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: from jobbing. 461 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 2: Thank you very much job for me. 462 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 3: I think we must also, though, realize that headful words 463 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 3: have a source, and most of the time these hot 464 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 3: for words like toxic masculinity, they have a source, and 465 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 3: that source might be ease that men have had women, 466 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: men have caused women pain, and that head and pain 467 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 3: has metestasized into what I will call virtuous verbal violence 468 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 3: or righteous normative hate or collective punishment to ours. So 469 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 3: that's why then you will hear words like hashtag men 470 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 3: must die, hashtag men are trash, hashtag men are toxic. 471 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 3: I mean, there's a study recently that was done on 472 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 3: boys eight to nineteen years old and they were asked, 473 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 3: what do you know about masculinite And the first thing 474 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 3: those boys, all of them said, they said, oh, we 475 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 3: know it's toxic, because that's all we hear. That we 476 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 3: are toxic. We have become a problem. We are a 477 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 3: thorn and a pebble in society's shoes. And these are 478 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 3: words used more born out of hat and pain. So 479 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 3: we should also acknowledge that they are not just used 480 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 3: because there is no source for those words. But then 481 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 3: also such words, when they are used, they create unintended 482 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 3: negative consequences in that they don't units, they create competition 483 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 3: and conflict. So now we had more gender competition and 484 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 3: conflict rather than unity. And then at the end of 485 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 3: the day, the person who suffers the most is the child. 486 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 3: Because when two elephants fight, the grass suffers. In this case, 487 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 3: when two adults fight, the grass, I mean the child. 488 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 3: In this case, the boy child or the girl child 489 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 3: will suffer. So I think that we should be very 490 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 3: careful as society to throw in words that checkmates the 491 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 3: other group. And you just throw it and say toxic, masculined, 492 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 3: patriarchy misogyny. All of these words are not useful and helpful. Instead, 493 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 3: they create conflict and competition, or they make men more defensive, 494 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 3: or they make men's stone wall and look the other 495 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 3: way and not become part of the solution. But if 496 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 3: we want to end gender place violence, and we want 497 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 3: to end femicide, and we want to end all of 498 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 3: these things, we have to find words that are more 499 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 3: inclusive rather than words that exclude. 500 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: And head hmm, and there's a what's up that's come 501 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: through on seven two and seven or two. 502 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 5: Morning Clement and morning Termsamo or should I rather see 503 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 5: doctor Marcy too? And I'm saying this intentionally because I've 504 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 5: got your book. I bought your book, and yeah, my 505 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 5: question is you wrote it like you're writing a PhD. 506 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: You know that how you reference, you know, the kind 507 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: of research, how you did your book, and. 508 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 5: Thinking that it's you know, written for for for males generally, 509 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 5: but I think more so for you know, young and 510 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 5: upcoming males. You know, So I was curious as to 511 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 5: why did you opt to to write your book in 512 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 5: a way You're trying to tell a story, but you 513 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 5: it's like I'm reading a your your PhD, physis or dissertation. Okay, 514 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 5: can you please clarify Simon's and churn. 515 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you Simon, Doctor Zama. 516 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 3: I may believe it that we must leave in the 517 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 3: intersection between art and science, and I believe that. 518 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: We should worship both. 519 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 3: We should worship art, which is storytelling narration, but also 520 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 3: we should ground a lot of our conversation on data 521 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 3: as well, because our feelings and intuition are not always facts. 522 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 3: Our feelings and emotions are also sometimes wrong. So I 523 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: wanted to present a book that has narrative and stories 524 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 3: but also grounded on empirical evidence, and so that if 525 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 3: I say that boys are struggling at school, I don't 526 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 3: only have anecdotal stories, but I also have data that 527 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 3: is a representative sample of South African boys in all males. 528 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 2: In South Africa. 529 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 3: So my attempt was, how do you live in the 530 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 3: intersection between narration, storytelling and empirical data and evidence. And yes, 531 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 3: I'm academic as well, but I also have a PhD, 532 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 3: so I can't hide that. And also I am clever, 533 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 3: so I can't hide that too. So I wanted to 534 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 3: be able to do both. And I just love storytelling, 535 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 3: but I also love data, So I just wanted to 536 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 3: marry the two. 537 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:07,959 Speaker 2: In a book. 538 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've spoken before about just you know, personal tragedy, 539 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: including the loss of your brother, as part of what 540 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: really has shaped your writing. How did grief change the 541 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: way you actually understood and understand masculinity, vulnerability and healing. 542 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 3: For me, when my brother committed suicide, the heavy part 543 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 3: was not that he killed himself, but it's when he 544 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 3: hunged his own son and nine years old, and then 545 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 3: he hunged himself that and then he left me a 546 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 3: two page suicide note, and it really made me realize 547 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 3: that when men write suicide notes, there are two keywords 548 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 3: that come up. It's I feel useless and I feel worthless. 549 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,479 Speaker 3: And society tells me I'm useless and I'm worthless. And 550 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 3: the other part is that men feel like they're ab 551 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 3: a perceived bed in someness to society. Even my brother 552 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 3: felt he was a bedden to me, and then he 553 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 3: perceived that he doesn't belong and then he had all 554 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 3: these painful, provocative events that happened to him that he 555 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 3: couldn't share with anyone, Like when he was in prison, 556 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 3: he was raped or he was molested, and men rape 557 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 3: and molestation is shame, and we can't talk about it 558 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,399 Speaker 3: at all, the same as a man who gets beaten up. 559 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 2: He can't talk about it out loudly. There's lots of shame. 560 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 3: And so it really grieved me to see that my 561 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 3: brother ended his life because he couldn't express what was 562 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 3: going on inside. And that really made me realize that 563 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 3: man complete suicide five times the rate than anyone else. 564 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 3: Completed suicide, not ideation, not attempted, not thinking about so, 565 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 3: but completed suicide. So I must say, for me, this 566 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 3: partly made me realize that we need to do something. 567 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 3: We need to talk about mental health, We need to 568 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 3: talk about men committing suicide. We need to say that 569 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 3: men are suffering. And the idea that men are strong, 570 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 3: men don't cry, men should only be providers and protectors, 571 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 3: is killing men. It's not helping men, but it's actually 572 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 3: killing men. I just needed to make sure I advocate 573 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 3: for a more nuanced and more empathetic language used for men. 574 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, we're gonna wrap up with keep his prayer. 575 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: Why is this one of your favorites? 576 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 2: Quincy Jones says this thing. 577 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 3: He says, when you create art, you must leave room 578 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 3: for God to enter and keep his prayer is when 579 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 3: God entered, because it's an improv and keep pat Michigi 580 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 3: is a place to the piano and then others follow 581 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 3: and it was not planned, but it's so beautiful that 582 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 3: you can feel that God entered the room and I 583 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 3: love it, and I love that he called to keep 584 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 3: his prayer because it just feels like a prayer, a 585 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 3: wish and a hope. 586 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 4: So I love it a lot. 587 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: A man, they did live room for God to enter, 588 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: I can say that dot Mzama Masso, thank you so much, man, 589 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: this was so lovely to hang out with you this hour. 590 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,399 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it and all the best with the book. 591 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Much appreciated. 592 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: Thank you. It's two minutes before eleven or