1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Across the desk with Clement man Tela. 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:04,519 Speaker 2: I'm seven two. 3 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 3: So across the desk Future this morning, we are going 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 3: to learn more about the work of company secretaries or 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 3: corporate secretaries. I've invited two of them to come and 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 3: join us here in studio. We've got Alsa b Keston, 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 3: who is Old Mutual's Group company secretary, who, by the way, 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 3: was the recipient of the Global Corporate Secretary of the 9 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 3: A Award for the CSIA Global Governance Awards ceremony. Al 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 3: sab welcome to the show. Good morning, morning and congratulations 11 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 3: on the award. 12 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and morning to your listeners. 13 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 3: We also have with us as well, Chamaine Manzini, who 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 3: is Telcom's corporate secretary who also own their CSIA Global 15 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 3: Award for Rising Corporate Secretary of the Year. Chamaine, thank 16 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 3: you for also making time. Good morning and congratulations as well. 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 3: When were they awards on February? 18 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's how much of a big deal is this? 19 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: Is this for you? Also? B, it's a it's a 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: big deal. 21 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 5: I think it's a it's it's a testament to a 22 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 5: career for me personally. So it's been a it's been 23 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 5: a huge accolade. It's a huge accolade for for Old 24 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 5: Mitchell as well. But I also stress the fact that 25 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 5: we in corporate governance, it's not about us as an individual. 26 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 5: It's about making sure the company is safe. So as 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 5: long as we do that, everything is good. So yeah, 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 5: but it was huge and it was nice to actually 29 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 5: be privileged to be in Mumbai for the for the ceremony, So. 30 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 3: That's amazing, enjoyable, well well done to both of you. 31 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 3: We want to understand more, obviously about the work of 32 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: company secretaries. That's what we often do here on across 33 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 3: the desk, invite different people from different professions to find 34 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 3: out more about their work. I want to first establish 35 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: JA mean, how long you have been in the industry, 36 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 3: how long have you been doing this? And have you 37 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 3: always wanted to be a company secretary? Did you even 38 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 3: know what that is? 39 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: That's why I'm loving not at all. 40 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 4: So actually being in the company secretary space is all 41 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 4: I know. From the time that I graduated, I actually 42 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 4: joined a graduate program and I didn't even know about 43 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 4: the company secretarial role when I was interviewed, so you 44 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 4: can imagine how that interview went. 45 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: But I got the role, so hey, but yeah, I. 46 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 4: Think I started in twenty sixteen as a graduat as 47 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 4: I mentioned, and then from there I think I saw 48 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 4: value in it. I got interested. I was very deliberate 49 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 4: also through the years in terms of developing myself. So 50 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 4: I think that went well. And yeah, how many years later, 51 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 4: almost ten ten years later? 52 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: So what did you graduate from? 53 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 4: I did my llb in making at the Northwest University 54 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 4: campus in my King and then I've also done my 55 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 4: master's and now I'm also a chartered secretary with the institute, 56 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:57,799 Speaker 4: the CGISA Institute. 57 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: Okay, and for you also be where do did Jenny begin? 58 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: For you? 59 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, so, sir Clement, I guess when you're when you're 60 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 5: when you're a little baby and you're in primary school 61 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 5: and the teacher asks everybody what do they want to 62 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 5: be when they grow up? Company secretary isn't want something, 63 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 5: so it happens by accident, I think shaw Mine says I. 64 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 5: I also studied law, and then I was one of 65 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 5: those people who didn't want to do articles of the law, 66 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 5: so I was clear I didn't want to be a 67 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 5: real lawyer, like to contracts and all of that boring stuff. 68 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 5: So I had a bit of a hiatus, and then 69 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 5: I bumbled into a job at an at a smaller 70 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 5: audit firm where we did let's call it director appointments 71 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 5: and resignations and share transfers, basically all the company secretarial 72 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 5: work that you would do as a as a junior 73 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 5: in a corporate these days. And from there on I 74 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 5: actually started to like the company law law, bit of law, 75 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 5: and yeah, it went from there. So you felt you 76 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 5: fall into this all sometimes. 77 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: How many years has it been now for you? 78 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 6: Yeah? 79 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: Okay, So what do company secretaries do? 80 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 3: How would you describe like your day to day like 81 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 3: basic responsibilities. 82 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think in trying to simplify it, I do 83 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 4: believe we play the role of being the center of 84 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 4: governance for companies. So our main stakeholders would be your 85 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 4: board of directors and then obviously also your executive committee, 86 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 4: so we support them in terms of the decisions that 87 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 4: they make, making sure that they'd make the right decisions, 88 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 4: follow the right processes, be ethical about that visions, and 89 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 4: also making sure that they're aligned to the law. So 90 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 4: hence the law portion of it is actually also a 91 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 4: center of what we do. 92 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: So governance and law are. 93 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,600 Speaker 4: Very much strongly aligned and then you would also then 94 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 4: obviously prepare for meetings as well, making sure that, for example, 95 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 4: you know, decisions are not only made in a meeting room. 96 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 4: There's also meetings that are made as a written resolution, 97 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 4: which is usually of emails, and we use platforms for 98 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 4: those things as well, so also making sure that we 99 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 4: keep to the standard that we need to keep even 100 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 4: when we make decisions outside of the boardrooms as well. 101 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: I see. 102 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 3: So then you work both with the executives and the board. Okay, 103 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 3: and do you have your own team? How does it work? 104 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? 105 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 5: It varies, so it depends on how big the organization is. 106 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 5: So in a big organization like ourselves, we've got a 107 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 5: team of individuals, we will look after the various companies. 108 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 5: So there's a holding company usually and then subsidiary companies, 109 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 5: and we have a team of professionals who look after 110 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 5: the corporate governance services of the various subsidiaries and then 111 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 5: the holding company. In a smaller entity, you would find 112 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 5: the company secretary being the lawyer, the compliance officer, the 113 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 5: risk officer, and so then a number of items that 114 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 5: that individual company secretary would need team full and roles. 115 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: That they discharge. 116 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 5: So it could be You could be a one man 117 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 5: band or you could have a team of people. 118 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 2: It all depends. 119 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 3: Okay, So in cases where there's conflict between the board 120 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 3: and the executives, oh do you sage that? 121 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 4: As uncomfortable as it can get. Sometimes basically you are 122 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 4: the door, you are the line between the two. And 123 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 4: I think I've had a couple of instances myself where 124 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 4: I had to handle conflicts. But I think one of 125 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 4: the things that have helped me is the relationships that 126 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 4: you automatically built within this role. You build a relationship 127 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 4: with the board members, You've built a relationship with the 128 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 4: executive community men. So whenever there is a conflict, I 129 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 4: think that's what helps also, just to try and align 130 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 4: them because usually it's built from misunderstandings also maybe misalignment 131 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 4: in some points. So it's usually easy to resolve, but 132 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 4: it's not easy to be in it. But yes, we 133 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 4: do play that line as well. 134 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 5: And your role is to ensure sustainable decisions in ain, 135 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 5: so that's that's the focus always. 136 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, And when they are governance failures in the company, 137 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: where does the company secretary is accountability begin and end? 138 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 3: Do they do? 139 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: They call you first and say we've got a problem. 140 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, So governance failure happens not for just one reason. 141 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 5: There's always a number of factors that rule that will 142 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 5: ply together to facilitate if one want to use that 143 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 5: word a governance failure. And and our role is unfortunately 144 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 5: to call out if rules are not followed and decisions 145 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 5: are not made in accordance with best practice corporate governance 146 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 5: or within the rules of the company. And it does 147 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 5: it requires us to be stayd fast and calm and 148 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 5: saying that we need to be within that that framework 149 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 5: that is set because that is expected by the shareholders 150 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 5: who are ultimately the owners of the company and have 151 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 5: asked you to fulfill that role. Because our role is 152 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 5: a statutory role that's in the company's Act, so it's 153 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 5: prescribed as a as a role that needs to be 154 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 5: appointed specifically for that reason. 155 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 3: To protect fascinating sixteen minutes after ten o'clock, we are 156 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 3: across the desk feature this morning, hosting our company secretaries. 157 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 3: And if you are in the space yourself, I'd like 158 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 3: you to join our conversation or maybe this is something 159 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 3: you want to get into one day and you want 160 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 3: to know what do I study? Why do I need 161 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 3: to prioritize is in order to find myself in Chamaine's 162 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 3: or Elseby's issues, give us a call on oh one 163 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 3: one eighty eight, three oh seven oh two. You can 164 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 3: send what's ups as well on oh seven two seven 165 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 3: or two one seven or two. 166 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: Across the desk with Clements Manela on. 167 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: Seven o two, twenty minutes after ten o clock across 168 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 3: the desk feature this morning, I'm hosting company secretaries. We've 169 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 3: got al Serb custen Old Mutuals Group company secretary, and 170 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 3: we also have Chamaine Manzani, Telcom's corporate secretary, and we're 171 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 3: finding out about the work of company secretaries. You'll find 172 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 3: out what's the most challenging thing about the job, what's 173 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 3: the most exciting thing about the job. But as you've 174 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 3: heard so far, I mean this is a role that's 175 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 3: considered central to good governance. In fact, under the Company's Act, 176 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 3: this role carries serious legal weight, ensuring that companies comply 177 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 3: with regulations, they uphold ethical standards, and operate with accountability. 178 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 3: I've got some of your voice notes coming through seven 179 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 3: o two. I'm gonna ask you Samain and as to 180 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 3: just put on these headphones. We're gonna play some voice notes. 181 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: Now we're taking your course as well on one one 182 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 3: eighty three seven two. 183 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: Let's start here that element. 184 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 7: I just want to find out from your guests how 185 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 7: do they handle the situation or a company just do 186 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 7: things relating to governance the just don't pay per like 187 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 7: for its There's some commitments and policies required for governance 188 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 7: and there will be just on paper, but the practice 189 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 7: opposite or for what bas what the company is supposed 190 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 7: to do to comply with corporate governance issues. This is 191 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 7: just based on my experience and observations with most companies 192 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 7: where they tick boxes, but the practices are different, Pasoga 193 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 7: from Ptoria. 194 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for that question. 195 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 3: So how do you ensure then that companies deliver on 196 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 3: policy related to good governance? 197 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 4: Okay, so I think at the awards they interviewed us 198 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 4: post you know, granting us the awards. One of the 199 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 4: things I mentioned about the characteristic of a company Cecuitary 200 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 4: is that you need to be brave, and brave means 201 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 4: many different things, but in this context, I think being 202 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 4: brave is about having the conversation that needs to be 203 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 4: had because in most instances nobody else will do it. 204 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 4: So like I mentioned also before, it's also how you 205 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 4: have the conversation with the people that you need to 206 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 4: have it with. There's always a line that you need 207 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 4: to follow, obviously with all these conversations, but be brave. 208 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 4: If you can see that something is not being done 209 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 4: correctly or not being done at all, start somewhere. It 210 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 4: could be maybe the next person. 211 00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 3: I know. 212 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 4: I mentioned that we also work with executive committees, so 213 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 4: at the time it could be maybe the CEO or 214 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 4: the CFO or one of the board members directly. Sometimes 215 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 4: it's the person. It's a person problem. Then you go 216 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 4: to the person. But how you do it is what matters. 217 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 4: And I think that also comes with practice and also 218 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 4: understanding the role that you play in the. 219 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: Organization and what does it mean. 220 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: I mean also be I would imagine if there are 221 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 3: companies that are great on paper when it comes to policy, 222 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 3: but that policy is not being implicated there are consequences 223 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 3: down the line. 224 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely, And clement I I would like to add 225 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 5: to watch your mindst is and. 226 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 2: Your call it. 227 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 5: The easiest way to to ensure that there is adherence 228 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 5: to the to the corporate rules and to corporate governance 229 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 5: is to highlight the fjudiciary duties of the directors which 230 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 5: attract personal liability for them, and we've seen that in 231 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 5: corporate scandals, I will end up standing in a in 232 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 5: a courtroom some way, so it's there are serious consequences 233 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 5: for directors every way if they're done that here to 234 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 5: their internal corporate rules. 235 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 3: I've got another question here from from anonymous whays good morning, 236 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 3: Clement and your guests. Would you please ask if become 237 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 3: law graduate qualifies one to be a company a company 238 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 3: secretary or does it have to be LLB. 239 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. 240 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 4: I think the answer may vary based on what the 241 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 4: company needs as also we also mentioned earlier the size 242 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 4: of the company also requires different things from the role 243 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 4: of a company secretary. So in most instances I've worked 244 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 4: alongside very senior company secretaries we only had to become law. 245 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 4: But I think there's also a bridging gap now with 246 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,200 Speaker 4: the institute, which is the CGISA, that have now enabled 247 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 4: us to go and write your exams and study via 248 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 4: them to actually become a chartered secretary. So wherever there's 249 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 4: a gap, there's ways to fill it. But I think 250 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 4: it also to pay on the needs of the company 251 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 4: based on the role that they need the present to 252 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 4: actually ACQUI into. 253 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 3: Okay, great, and then there's a question here about the 254 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:14,199 Speaker 3: biggest risks from your observation, the biggest risk that companies 255 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: face today from a governance perspective, do you think they 256 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 3: are specific ones given our context in the South Africa. 257 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: It was. 258 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 5: It sounds like an easy question, but it's actually very difficult. 259 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 5: The biggest risk is non adherence to the corporate laws 260 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 5: and the governance principles that are outlined in various pieces 261 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 5: of legislation and jous listing requirements for the larger companies. 262 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 5: So and with that there is legal liability for the directors, 263 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 5: but I think the biggest risk is just non non 264 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 5: adherence to those to those regulations, and it's it's the 265 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 5: next to that is of course, it is a very 266 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 5: fast changing world. I mean, if we just look at 267 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 5: technology and how we've looked at II in the past 268 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 5: three years since STRATEGTP has hit our desks, the evolving 269 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 5: nature of society and and and how we have also 270 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 5: in a geopolitical instance where we don't know what tomorrow 271 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 5: will bring from a from a political perspective, that is 272 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 5: also a big risk for any company. 273 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 3: Sure, and yeah, I mean we really don't know what 274 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 3: could happen, not even tomorrow, in the next minute, and 275 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 3: then what about Because there are companies in South Africa 276 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 3: that we see have improved. They take compliance seriously, adherence 277 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: to the prescripts of the law. But from your observation, Chamaine, 278 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 3: do you think companies in South Africa are improving when 279 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 3: it comes to governance or there's still some really major gaps. 280 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 4: I think has been great improvement. I know, even just 281 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 4: ten years compared to the city. But ten years ago 282 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 4: when I started being involved in this particular profession, I 283 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 4: remember I was asked to, you know, go fetch dry 284 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 4: cleaners a try cleaning for one of you. 285 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: Know, the peas, you know. 286 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 4: So it's from that day and what I see now 287 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 4: where you're almost the first person that the directors want 288 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 4: to contact when they have a question, when they are 289 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 4: unclear about something. You actually become their first line of 290 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 4: contact within the company and even within their own space 291 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 4: where they're unsure about their fiduciary duties like ELSA be 292 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 4: mentioned as well. So there's been a great and I 293 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 4: think they've been very intentional about evolving the role and 294 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 4: letting the role evolve as well. 295 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: Is also what I've seen. 296 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 3: How do you manage difficult board members or dominant personalities 297 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 3: also be Is it a matter of involving hr or 298 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 3: as Jamaine said, just sit down with the person and 299 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 3: know how to inter act with them at that level. 300 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, I struggle because I don't have that experience in 301 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 5: my own own role, But I. 302 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 3: Like you difficult personality. 303 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 5: No, And I think the key thing is just to 304 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 5: remain steadfast and there is a calmness that's required in 305 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 5: our role. 306 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter in which. 307 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 5: Company you are, so I think the key thing is 308 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 5: to remain calm and understand that there's a bigger picture. 309 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 5: Always the sustainability of the entity is what you are 310 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 5: striving for. 311 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 3: What would you say at the biggest challenges of doing 312 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 3: this work, I. 313 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 4: Think managing the relationships across the board because we deal 314 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 4: with very senior people that are very knowledgeable in their 315 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 4: respective areas, so having to have a group of people 316 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 4: with different backgrounds and possibly different standing. 317 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: It's like she mentioned as well, that to meet a 318 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: common goal. 319 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 4: I think that's an everyday challenge, but we have things 320 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 4: in place to make that easy. I like policies, like practices, 321 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 4: like the meetings that we have. I mean, we are 322 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 4: privileging that we are one of the people that actually 323 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 4: help prepare the meeting documents for that section. So you 324 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 4: also help in terms of making sure that we stay aligned. 325 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 4: And I think that's the biggest thing, make sure that 326 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 4: everybody stays stays aligned, which gives less gaps for those 327 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 4: things to coming. 328 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: And for you, what would you say is the most 329 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: difficult fact? 330 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 5: My most difficult thing is the continuous legislative changes. So 331 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 5: we've had significant changes over the past year or so. 332 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 5: We've had a new king code, we've had new joicey 333 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 5: listing requirements, we've had changes to the company's act, and 334 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 5: it is the changing environment. I think that's the key 335 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 5: thing for me at this point. 336 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 3: Does that become a responsibility to make sure that you've 337 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 3: got a finger on the pus if regulations are changing and. 338 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 5: Correct and making sure that that is implemented in the 339 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 5: company and that the board is kept up to speed. 340 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 3: It's ten thirty across the desk with Clements Manella on 341 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 3: seven O two. It's twenty five minutes before eleven out lock. 342 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 3: We're hosting company secretaries across the desk feature this morning 343 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 3: and finding out more about their work their responsibilities. We've 344 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 3: got el Sabi Kusten whose old Mutual's Group company secretary, 345 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 3: and Chamaine Manzini Telcomes corporate secretary. And I'm taking your 346 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 3: calls on one one eight y three oh seven oh two. 347 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 3: What's ups on? Oh seven two seven two one seven 348 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 3: oh two. I've got a few questions. Yeah, on the 349 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 3: what's up line, Nonny is asking morning, Clement. Does the 350 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 3: company secretary have a finger in the hr PI for instance, 351 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: policy formulation or implementation? 352 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 5: It varies, It varies, Clement, And it depends on how 353 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 5: big the organization is. Again, so and in certain organizations, 354 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 5: the company secretary would be responsible for that kind of 355 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 5: policy from a human capital perspective. In larger organizations there 356 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 5: are specific experts that does human capital, for guy or 357 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 5: the subject matter experts on human capital, and I will 358 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 5: be responsible for that policy. 359 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: So it depends. 360 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 5: But in smaller organizations, traditionally a company secretary would get 361 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 5: involved in that. 362 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 3: In that and then another one here, says Clement, this 363 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 3: is truly here from Pretoria. I'm currently registered with CGISA 364 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 3: and preparing to write my board level modules. I hold 365 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 3: a bitcom law degree and I'm very interested in building 366 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 3: a career in governance and. 367 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: Corporate secretary roles. 368 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: However, I have not yet had the opportunity to gain 369 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 3: practical experience in this field. I've been applying for committee 370 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 3: secretary positions without success, and I believe that mentorship could 371 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 3: significantly help me develop the necessary skills and industry insight. 372 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 3: Could you please ask your guests to advise on how 373 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 3: one might find a. 374 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: Mentor in this field. Yeah, I think. 375 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 4: That's a very very good question, especially because I myself 376 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 4: am thus far because of different mentorships that I took 377 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 4: on along the way. But I think, first of all, 378 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 4: just in terms of getting practical experience, I mentioned that 379 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 4: I started my role not necessarily as a committee secretary, 380 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 4: but rather as a graduate program. So I started right 381 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 4: at the bottom, and sometimes that's also what it takes. 382 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 4: I mean, I know a lot of people are asking me, 383 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 4: you know, you did four years just to do this 384 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 4: kind of you know, role, and then I understood where 385 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 4: I was going, so also being able to take up 386 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 4: even maybe junior junior level opportunities. But I think also 387 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 4: in terms of her question about mentorship, sometimes it doesn't 388 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 4: have to be an actual mentorship program. You meet somebody 389 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 4: which requires you to meet somebody, so networking becomes then 390 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 4: an aspect of it. But you can you know, I 391 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 4: know these people that have mentored me without even knowing 392 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 4: that they were mentoring me only because I was watching them, 393 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 4: So that's also something they can do. But also just 394 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 4: reach out to people that you think you want, you know, 395 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 4: to follow them, to be inspired by them, to learn 396 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 4: a few things from them, and then you can take 397 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 4: it from there. But I know the institute that you 398 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 4: mentioned also has mentorship programs in place, so she can 399 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 4: also reach out for those as well. 400 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: Has that worked for you as well? Mentorship? 401 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, not formal mentorship. 402 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 5: For me, I show my ass One learns from different 403 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 5: people and if you're our role is you need to 404 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 5: know a little bit about everything. So one needs to 405 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 5: be curious in your day to day business and you 406 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 5: need to be curious as a specifically, when I was 407 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 5: starting out as a company secretary, I used to read 408 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 5: as much as I possibly can. I was trying to 409 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 5: get as many mailers from even internettional corporate governance institutes 410 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 5: and there are keeps of them around. There's some of 411 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 5: the large ordered firms that have apps that you can 412 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 5: download and they will send you notifications about best practice governance, 413 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 5: so you don't necessarily need someone. You can do self 414 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 5: talked through various pieces of information that lands in one's email. 415 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 5: But the but the networking, which on mine mentioned is 416 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 5: quite an important thing. Is it's because you pick up 417 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 5: little tidbits from people that's in the industry. 418 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, so where is the best place for people to 419 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 3: just try and find themselves into networks? 420 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 2: On me? 421 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:46,719 Speaker 1: Where must they be playing? 422 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 4: I think outside of work, as I was fortunate enough 423 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 4: to have colleagues around me. But I think the institute 424 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 4: is a great place. They have a website and there's 425 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,880 Speaker 4: other like as I've also mentioned, there's international platforms as 426 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 4: well that you can play into. 427 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: The usual hold. 428 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 4: They actually hold networking events, but you also need to 429 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 4: be able to pick up on some opportunities. I've attended 430 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 4: some events that were not necessarily networking, but it was 431 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 4: things that I was interested in. So also opening up 432 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 4: not only for governance matters, because you need to know 433 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 4: a little about something. So even I've attended finance events, 434 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 4: I've attended text events because you need to know something 435 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 4: about something in this world. 436 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 3: Do you need to know about what's happening in the world. 437 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 3: It must you keep your puse on the news and 438 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 3: read much. 439 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, very much. 440 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 3: All right, there's some what's up voice notes that have 441 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 3: come through on seven to seven or two one seven 442 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 3: or two. 443 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: Can you please. 444 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 4: Ask your guests to elaborate the difference between an a receptionist, sorry, 445 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 4: and a company secretary because a lot of people think 446 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 4: our role is come as receptionist. 447 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: No offense to receptionists. Thank you so much for that. 448 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, absolutely, And it's funny because, like I've mentioned 449 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 4: in my first interview, I think I went in the 450 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 4: senior company secretaries in the room and when they asked me, 451 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 4: what does a company's secretary do? 452 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: I told them, you know, you make good coffee. You 453 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: do make. 454 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,479 Speaker 4: So I understand, and I still get to have to 455 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 4: answer that question even until today. So definitely different roles. 456 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 4: I mean, like we mentioned, a company secretary is a 457 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 4: statutory role, so it's very for example, in the company's 458 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 4: actually can find actually the company's sectors say something about 459 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 4: what the company sector is expected to do. But very 460 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 4: different roles because the receptionist is most companies actually want 461 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 4: a company secretary to be qualified some but it's not 462 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 4: always allowed. But I've made people that do that are 463 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 4: actually charged accountants, and they are also company secretaries, so 464 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 4: very different. Company secretary is a very senior role actually 465 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 4: as well, because you already, I mean in my first 466 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 4: role as a graduate, I was already attending board meetings, 467 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 4: so very different. I think the best thing you can 468 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 4: do is read up about it, because then it might 469 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 4: be might not be able to say everything today. But 470 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 4: a company sectary is a senior role. You are required 471 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 4: to know a lot about the law, to know also 472 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 4: a lot about governance, and then also what's happening around 473 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 4: the world. 474 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: And yeah, I think. 475 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 8: This is Menka in mon Dio. I just wanted to 476 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 8: ask the company secretaries what are the junior roles that 477 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 8: a person can get into right off the bed from 478 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 8: having like an LEDB before I get the CGIs a certification. 479 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 8: So what junior roles can I apply to that give 480 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 8: me a you know, just entry into this field so 481 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 8: that I can scale as time goes on. 482 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: Great question. 483 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, most most companies will advertise for something called the 484 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 5: company secretary will assistant, which is I mentioned earlier. I 485 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 5: started off my career as where you the the only 486 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 5: thing that you do is you would necessarily would make 487 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 5: sure that the Shade Register is up to date, that 488 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 5: directors are appointed, that the statutory records of the company 489 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 5: is kept up to date. So it's a it's a 490 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 5: fairly administrative role at that point, and but that there 491 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 5: you learn the basics and and it gives you such 492 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 5: a good foundation for being able to then advice as 493 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 5: you progress through your career. So I would say that 494 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 5: that's what's what our listeners, if they're interested in the 495 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 5: field and they want to start out, it that they 496 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 5: should look for. 497 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a question as well related to that 498 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 3: about the growing career path. Someone is asking is this 499 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 3: a growing career path for young professionals? 500 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think what I've loved most about this 501 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 4: role it is what you make it. So I've been 502 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 4: in spaces where I took over and I saw gaps 503 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,719 Speaker 4: where I thought, you know, actually, I can get involved 504 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 4: in this sometimes even across different departments because you know 505 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 4: something that most of the other departments might not necessarily know. 506 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 4: So you can even grow your own role within your 507 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 4: own lines. But it's definitely growing, I mean even within 508 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 4: the same company sometimes even like we mentioned as well, 509 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 4: the size of the company also exposes you to different things. 510 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I've got some more questions from the listeners 511 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 3: that I'll get to you in a moment, But I 512 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 3: want to ask you about the future. 513 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: Of this profession. Where do you see it? 514 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 3: You spoke a little bit about AI Elio LSAB, but 515 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 3: where do you see the future of this profession of 516 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 3: company secretary? 517 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, we talk a lot about II and its impact 518 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 5: on this role, and it was in Mumboir actually where 519 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 5: one of the participants mentioned that AI can help us 520 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 5: see whether there is compliance with legislation, So it will 521 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 5: help you in that sense, but I can't teach you ethics, 522 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 5: which is a human a human thing, So it will 523 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 5: it will. We will always have that that we need 524 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 5: to advise on, which is your more gray areas. So 525 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 5: we we think that the role will just expand because 526 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 5: we need to govern AI as well. We need to 527 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 5: make sure that whatever we use in terms of AI 528 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 5: is used ethically, that people don't take your data and 529 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 5: go off and do something unethically with with your data. 530 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 5: So we believe that that this role will continue to evolve. 531 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 3: How do how do you think we compared global in 532 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 3: terms of the standards of company secretaries I think. 533 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 4: We have one of the best governance Frameworksertion, which has 534 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 4: held within South African you know, soil so great. I mean, 535 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 4: for example, in the Global Awards that you mentioned, I mean, 536 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 4: Essay took home three three. 537 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 538 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: So I think we're doing actually phenomenally. 539 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 4: I think we're very proactive about it, and we have 540 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 4: opened up the landscape where we are discussing this kind 541 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 4: of matters and people are coming up. For example, we 542 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 4: have events now when it's a company secretarial event, but 543 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 4: these people you know, in different professions that also attend 544 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 4: because they're interested in things that company secretaries talk about 545 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 4: and what we do as well. 546 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 3: All right, we're going to come back and wrap up 547 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 3: with some more questions from our listeners. Oh seven two, 548 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 3: seven oh two one seven oh two is where you 549 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 3: can send your questions. It's now going up to thirteen 550 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 3: minutes before eleven. 551 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: O'clock Across the Desk with Clement's man Tela on seven 552 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: o two. 553 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 3: It's twelve minutes not before eleven o clock. We're just 554 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 3: about to wrap up our conversation with company secretaries that 555 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 3: we're hosting on our Across the Desk feature this morning. 556 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 3: I've got lots of questions coming from you that I 557 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 3: want to put before them, and we're going to start 558 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 3: with a question about whistleblowers. How do you protect whistle 559 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 3: blower as well maintaining organizational integrity If you don't, I mean, 560 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 3: do company secretaries deal with that as well? Where whistle 561 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 3: blower can approach them? Do you take it up to 562 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 3: each out of this as a matter you can you 563 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 3: can deal with yourself. 564 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 4: I think it also depends on the policy that is 565 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 4: in place. Most companies have a whistle blowing policy that 566 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 4: is in place, and depending on where this house. Usually 567 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 4: I've founded housed in the HR department, but it does 568 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 4: come to the company secretary at some point, maybe because 569 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 4: it needs to now be discussed at a particular board 570 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 4: committee based on their level. But I know we also 571 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 4: report on wistle blowing reports at board level as well, 572 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 4: so there is some kind of interacting between company secretary 573 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 4: and the HR. But there's usually a policy and a 574 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 4: procedure in place to guard those kind of cases. 575 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,479 Speaker 3: Are there any reforms or changes also be that you 576 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,959 Speaker 3: as company secretaries would like to see in how companies 577 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 3: are governed, Like are the gaps in the law or 578 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 3: do you think we've got quite what a tight legislation. 579 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 5: Water tight legislation and water tight guidelines through King five 580 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 5: I believe. I said in another forum that South Africa 581 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 5: is at the forefront of corporate governance. The bit that 582 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 5: probably we all want to see is that everybody adheres 583 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 5: to that. And one of your previous callers talked about 584 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 5: and let's put it as lip servers to those rules. 585 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 5: And I think that's the important thing. But it's not 586 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 5: just companies, it's every person in their individual life. Is 587 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 5: about how you treat your daily life. Are you ethical 588 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 5: in how you go about things? Are you perhaps purchasing 589 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 5: something that you know you shouldn't be purchasing because it's 590 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 5: resourced from somewhere where you shouldn't where you in an 591 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 5: ethical manner. So it's something that we all need to 592 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 5: strive for, is to to live ethically. 593 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 3: Another question is about virtual board meetings and digital records. 594 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 3: Are these creating any new risks or opportunities? 595 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 4: Yes, I think definitely both. I mean, it's a great 596 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 4: opportunity in terms of being able to digitize you know, 597 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 4: as far as possible, but obviously the risk also in 598 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 4: managing what people do with those platforms. So it's both 599 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 4: a risk and an opportunity. But putting things in place 600 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 4: like policies and procedures I think helps almost streamline the 601 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 4: risk as well. So it's not a resk that you 602 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 4: can't manage. It is manageable. 603 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 3: But what happens now like because since COVID, most of 604 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 3: the board meetings are they physical or most of them must. 605 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 5: Know most most boards have reverted back to physical, but 606 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 5: they are. It has created the opportunity to when you 607 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 5: have an ad Holt meeting to then have something on screen. 608 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 5: So that's that's easier in the in the pre COVID 609 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 5: as we used to have tell telecons or video cons. 610 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 5: It feels all very remote and old now, but that's 611 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 5: what where we are at. 612 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 2: The one thing that I wanted to add to. 613 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 5: The to the risks for virtual is about where the 614 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 5: information and the data is stored. So it's very important 615 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 5: that our listeners who work in this field are where 616 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 5: that what happens with the files, the digital files, is 617 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 5: it within your own organization or is it stored somewhere 618 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 5: in the cloud, And if it is, is it ring 619 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 5: fence because that becomes important in terms of the security 620 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 5: of your your own data okay. 621 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 3: So that responsibility for cybersecurity, who does it fall under. 622 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 5: Again depending on the on the company, But you as 623 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 5: the company secretary, will need to make sure that you're 624 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 5: comfortable from a risk perspective. 625 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: Okay. 626 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 3: And then another one is asking how does the job 627 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 3: affect you at a personal level? What are the working 628 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 3: hours like the pressure? 629 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 1: How do you answer that I'm ten years in. 630 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 4: I think the answers might vary how long you've been in, 631 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 4: but personally, I actually also had the same thing that 632 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 4: as I've mentioned, where she knew she didn't want to 633 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 4: be in practice necessarily, so corporate low corporate governance was 634 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 4: the best option for me, and I think I've managed 635 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 4: it well also being able. Like I mentioned, the role 636 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 4: is what you make of it, so you have the 637 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 4: opportunity to change certain practices that might be perfecting you, 638 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,919 Speaker 4: for example, the long hours. You can find ways using 639 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 4: digital platforms as well, you know, integrating with people that 640 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 4: you can help you get things done faster as well. 641 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 4: So it is what you make of it. But I've 642 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,720 Speaker 4: been I've been coping very well. I've been a student 643 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 4: for the ten years that i've been a company secretary, 644 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 4: so and built a family and so on. So it 645 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 4: is I think it's been It's been good for me, yeah, okay, 646 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 4: and for you. 647 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 5: Again, it depends where you end up. But it is 648 00:35:55,760 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 5: a high pressured role and the long hours to come 649 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 5: with the role. So it is important to my show 650 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 5: that you balance, and the only person that can make 651 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 5: sure that you balance keep a work life balance is yourself. 652 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 5: So you need to be able to switch off, for instance, 653 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 5: and people will be surprised, I don't have. 654 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 2: Emails on my phone. 655 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: You don't have emails. 656 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 2: I don't have emails on my phone. 657 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 5: We m as well learn from you because if I'm 658 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 5: not in front of my computer, then if you really 659 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:30,879 Speaker 5: need to get hold of me, you can watch up. 660 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 1: Okay. 661 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 3: So what happens though, when there's an emergency and you're 662 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 3: on holiday with your family, the board needs to meet 663 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 3: urgedly because there's a crisis. 664 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 4: I think there's different ways, too many something like that. 665 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 4: One of the best things I've heard later was we 666 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 4: are not hot surgeons, so what is about to collapse? 667 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 4: But I think also being able to delegate. I've been 668 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 4: always been fortunate to be part of a team, so 669 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 4: you can always call somebody else to attend. But I think. Yeah, 670 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 4: like she she said, you need to be able to 671 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 4: balance as well. If I can't, I can't and there's 672 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,959 Speaker 4: usually no fire at the time, but being able also 673 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 4: to call up on a colleague or you're not the 674 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 4: next person that you can also align with. 675 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: Here, yeah, here's voice, not Clement, this is our guess. 676 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 6: I'm I'm the CEO of the csi A and we 677 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 6: host the Global Governance Awards which was held in Mumbai 678 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 6: this year. I just wanted to say how proud we 679 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 6: are of l the b and Chermaine and also the 680 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 6: other winners in the other categories of the award section 681 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 6: and the work that these governance professionals do behind the 682 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 6: scenes accedently, unsung heroes, and that work strengthens global governance. 683 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 6: They serve as phone models and we celebrate them for 684 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 6: advancing the standards of governance on a global scale. This 685 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 6: procession is going from strange to strength, and I want 686 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 6: to encourage all the young people to really look at 687 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 6: the governance professional role. It's a critical role. It's a 688 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 6: strategic role as an advisor to the board and also 689 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 6: as a custodian governance. 690 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, a loved advice. Thank you so 691 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: much for that. 692 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 2: Thank you. 693 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 3: What advice just as we wrap up what you give 694 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 3: to someone who's still young who wants considering taking this up, 695 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 3: or someone who is still new in the role and 696 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 3: wants to get up to get to your point where 697 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 3: they can occupy the roles that you guys occupy. 698 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think remain teachable at all aspects. But I 699 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 4: think also I think what is important about one of 700 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 4: the things that we said was it's in your daily practices. 701 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 1: So how you carry. 702 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 4: Yourself every day will impact how you fulfill any role really, 703 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 4: but specifically when it comes to the role of a 704 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 4: company secret ter iman, if it's expen, it's the front 705 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 4: liner and it differentiates you as well if you're consistent 706 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 4: with that practice. So be able to build yourself I think, 707 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 4: be deliberate with your self development. And then also the 708 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 4: networking opportunities that you can get, take them and yeah, enjoy. 709 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,439 Speaker 4: I mean life is short as well, so you want 710 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:19,919 Speaker 4: to be able to enjoy what you're doing. 711 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 5: And your advice, Yeah, it's about being curious, yous a. 712 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,919 Speaker 5: It's a lifetime of learning. You continue to learn every 713 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 5: day in this role. You continue to learn about your 714 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 5: own organization, you continue to learn about people, you continue 715 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,359 Speaker 5: to learn about your your own sphere of reference. So 716 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 5: it is about staying curious, staying up to date, and 717 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 5: not being afraid of hard work. 718 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming. 719 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 3: I mean, all I've been thinking about while having you 720 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 3: here is I don't know if we've got anything similar 721 00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,799 Speaker 3: like this to government. I'm sure they go onder different 722 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 3: name the professions, but I wish every department had a 723 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 3: company secretary who can look at ethics, good governance, compliance, 724 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 3: because that really is what we're struggling with in the 725 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 3: public sector. Thank you for the work that you do, 726 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 3: and congratulations on your 727 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: Hours two minutes before you learn