1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Being out with Clement on seven o two. Let walk 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: the talk. 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 2: And on our Hanging Out feature this morning. And if 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 2: you've just joined us and you're wondering what's going on 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 2: because the Hanging Out Future is normally at ten out clock, well, 6 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: we had to shift things around because we've been planning 7 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 2: to bring you the conversation with the AFF leader Julius 8 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 2: Malima for some time now. In fact, the last time, 9 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: remember we had to postpone it because Paula Sullivan was 10 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: going to appear in Parliament at the ad Hoc Committee. 11 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 2: So we have been struggling to find and a line 12 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 2: in terms of diary. So today was an opportunity to 13 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 2: slot it in for ten o'clock and that's why I 14 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: moved sort of the Thursday Dialogue to ten o'clock where 15 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: we host him, and I moved the hanging Out feature 16 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 2: to eleven o'clock. And today on our Hanging Out Future, 17 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 2: we've got a and C Parliamentary Chief with Dumiss Sen Induley, 18 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: who has been described by others as a rising star 19 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: within the African National Congress and he joins us now 20 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 2: in studio as we get to know him better. Do 21 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 2: you thank you so much? For making time. Welcome to 22 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: the show. 23 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 3: Good morning, Thank you very much, clemen, Good morning to you, 24 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 3: and good morning to your listeners. 25 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: And much appreciation appreciated for inviting me. No, really really 26 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: appreciate it. I was saying to you that you enjoy 27 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 2: with quite a lot. Does your work involve a lot 28 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 2: of Cape town based or you have to come decide 29 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: that literally houses. 30 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 3: Well, primarily my work is in Capita, but as you know, 31 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 3: I'm the head of Elections as well as the chief 32 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 3: peop of the ANC, so there has to be a 33 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 3: lot of consultation between myself and the Headquarters on a 34 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: variety of issues that are taking place in Parliament, including 35 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 3: for instance, and the appeals that have been considered in 36 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 3: Parliament or their contentious issues before the National Assembly or 37 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 3: the National Counsel of Provinces. It requires me to have 38 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 3: a tight coordination with the head office so that whatever 39 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 3: positions we take that site understood and aligned with the 40 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 3: position of the movement. 41 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 2: So you grew up in Brazilinata, that's correct, what gamber 42 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 2: I was born and grew up in Warzunata. 43 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 3: Actually I was born in a place called quanjoburgas that 44 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 3: place is it's about forty five kilometers away from Gotlinburg 45 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 3: on the side of when you go to Estone or 46 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: in Bumbulo, that site, that's where I was born. And 47 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 3: then we relocated to Quatlimber in nineteen ninety one, and 48 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: so essentially I grew up in Watlimber because that is 49 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 3: where I completed my primary school, high school until I 50 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 3: went to the university in. 51 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: Year two thousand. 52 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 2: So Edward point, then do you get conscientized about what 53 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: was happening at the time and to the point where 54 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: you end up developing some kind of an interest in 55 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 2: a commitment to politic and the struggle for freedom. 56 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 3: You see, when we when we left the place where 57 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 3: we were I was born, it was because of a 58 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:15,119 Speaker 3: very heightened violence between the ANC and the i FP, 59 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: and my family was very much involved in the ANC, 60 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 3: not prominent in terms of leadership, but my ancles, including my. 61 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: Father, were well known to be. 62 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 3: People who are mostly associated with the do not movement 63 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 3: because of their involvement at work. 64 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: And when the ANC and the. 65 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: IFP issue started to show up in our villages where 66 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 3: I was born, they were naturally identifying with their condational 67 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 3: congress and because of a very serious war that happened 68 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: there in which we lost some of my ancles. We 69 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 3: decided as a family, my father and and his simply 70 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 3: simply they decided that we've got to relocate and go 71 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 3: to Waklimber, because Whatklimber was by that time already a 72 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 3: highly prominent anc area under traditionally leadership of in Kosum 73 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 3: Single Labor, who's late now, but he was also a 74 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 3: very prominent a traditional leader, but also a well known 75 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 3: a member of the National Congress. So it was easy 76 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 3: for us that when there were difficulties where we were, 77 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 3: when we relocate, we rather go to a place where 78 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 3: we know where we are going, to a place where 79 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 3: it's predominantly the National Congress. 80 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: And that's what happened. 81 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 2: How devastating was that period, because often when I speak 82 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: to people who've grown up in those parts of Caesar 83 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: or even parts of the Easter End where that violence 84 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: was very much alive, you can tell that they've really 85 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: lost loved ones because of that violence between the two organizations. 86 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: Was it as devastating as we often read about. 87 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: It, I mean, it was youncumentary. I recalled very well 88 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 3: at times, how the war will take place wild we're 89 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 3: expected to walk to school because being born growing up 90 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 3: in a rural area, very very deep rural area of cases, and. 91 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: You go to school a foot you just walk to school. 92 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 3: And and because we're little boys, when they were fighting 93 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 3: at that time in this place where I was, I 94 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 3: was born, before the politicization of that population, there were 95 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 3: what is called affection fights, which is fights between different 96 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 3: villages or between the areas that are controlled by various 97 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 3: traditional leaders. 98 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 1: So at that time there was a. 99 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 3: Sort of a particular I don't know what do I 100 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 3: call it, but young people who were not being met 101 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 3: at so people will fight. 102 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: We will know that. You see what was happening. There 103 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: was the fight. 104 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 3: Somebody has died, and but life was going on, especially 105 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: for a young young people and women because there was 106 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 3: no really no target that was a. 107 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: Director to two young people. 108 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 3: And when the NCIFP violence began, because majority of the 109 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 3: people who were in the ANC were largely from the youth, 110 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 3: that's when we started seeing very strange things now where 111 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: the killing will cut across people who walk into somebody's 112 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 3: house wanting to kill a man. If they don't find 113 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: him and they find his wife and kids, they're going 114 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 3: to shoot randomly and you have women and kids being killed. 115 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: So it was very devastating, a very problematic. 116 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 3: In fact, we grew up, I think those of us 117 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 3: who came from that in particular, we grew up strongly, 118 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 3: strongly hating the IFP. I mean to the extent that 119 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 3: it was not easy for me until I got into 120 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 3: the university to totilight a conversation between myself and anybody 121 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 3: that is prominently known to belong to the IFP. 122 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: Because of that kind of an experience, and. 123 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 3: I think by the time we got into the university, 124 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 3: that's when one was slightly i would say, awaken, sort 125 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 3: of being formed to understand that, yes, there are differences 126 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 3: between the NC and the IFP, but it's not that 127 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 3: these things are supposed to be sectly through the karent 128 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 3: of the of the car parallel the can. And I 129 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: think around ninety six ninety seven, after the first local 130 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 3: cament elections, we got a new council elected in our 131 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 3: what heah and got Climber who served for fifteen years. 132 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 3: After that, he began to really work with us, as 133 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 3: the youngsters at the time, just to consciotise them about 134 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: the importance of being active and being the activist activists 135 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 3: within the Utlik. 136 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: I see, okay, We've got some some of your favorite 137 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 2: songs that we're gonna play as we get to know 138 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: you this hour. And I'll also just take some questions 139 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: from our listeners as well or some inputs. If you 140 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: want to chat Tohim to miss an Intulo, maybe you've 141 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 2: got a question for him, you can call us or 142 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: send us about a voice note on seven to seven 143 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 2: to one, seven o two. I'm not surprised to see 144 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: you Kuzani on your list here, Garcina ok Shan, Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, 145 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: Garcina a gosha. 146 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: Oh, issue's like dancing dancing like a medman. 147 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 4: Oh. 148 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 3: So when you you are dancing the Zulu dance of course. Yeah, 149 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 3: in a way that is almost like you are driven 150 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 3: by some kind of internal Yes, it of some sort. 151 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: So when somebody is saying. 152 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 3: You can literally translate to me and you're like dancing 153 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 3: like a madman. Yeah, it's the live and of passion 154 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 3: and commitment to what we are doing. 155 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: Why is it your favorite song? 156 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, as I said, I grew up in 157 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 3: the rural and I still live there, by the way, 158 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 3: So the orientation, orientation we we grew up attending traditional 159 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 3: events what we would call memo law and others where 160 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 3: we would be in our traditional area, would participate in 161 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 3: the you know, in the activities that are involved in 162 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 3: that process, including a participating in some of the some 163 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 3: of a marquito as they would call it in other languages, 164 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 3: in CERs and particular. 165 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: So that that that has been my upbringing, my orientation. 166 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 3: So every year, as a result of that upbringing, I'm 167 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 3: always on the allect to hear who's going to be 168 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 3: releasing new songs, mainly mainly mainly from Maskandi a group, 169 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 3: and and I like their competition as well, which is 170 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 3: very healthy. It's very times it's healthy and sometimes it's 171 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 3: very rough. I know, it's naturally generally very very healthy 172 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 3: if you grew up in that environment and you understand 173 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 3: that this is our way. 174 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: They compete about who really has an influence. 175 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: His kazani with the song sina or sha. 176 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,479 Speaker 5: Good morning, Clement and your guest mister Trulli. 177 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: In Capelan. 178 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 5: I would like to find out, man, what is this 179 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 5: thing with him and Taponbeaky. It seems like Big is 180 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 5: so fond of him, Like, what is this thing? I'd 181 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 5: like to find out from him. Actually, because I won't 182 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 5: care to maybe anywhere to ask an old man what 183 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 5: is that? Actually, I didn't make the old mass so 184 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 5: close attached to him or him attached to the old man. 185 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,719 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you? Are you guys. 186 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: Really that close? I don't think. I don't think it's 187 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: about really being that close. 188 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 3: But I would say that it's one of the leaders 189 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 3: of the ANC that I admire t because of you 190 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 3: grew up in the ANC, well informed. It's a well 191 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 3: rounded kit of the movement, whether you're talking about governance, 192 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 3: intellectual work. So he's one of the leaders that as 193 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,559 Speaker 3: I grew up, he inspired me. And then when we 194 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 3: were at the University declarment all the time, when President 195 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 3: and Beggie would write but just called an C today, 196 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 3: which was coming out on Friday. Literally, we would go 197 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 3: and sit in the computer lane because we didn't have computers, 198 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 3: didn't have laptops. We were coming from poor paragraphs. Never 199 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 3: own a computer until I started working. So we'll go 200 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 3: and sit in the computer lane, open the Internet and 201 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 3: read what he would have said on that week. 202 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: So I grew up. Let me say, I got. 203 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 3: To learn and understand the movement more from his own 204 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 3: interventions through the ancy today among other things. 205 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: I see we've got a call from t K who 206 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: is in northleif TK. 207 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 6: Good morning, good morning Clement, and good morning some peace. 208 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 6: So so go ahead, yes, I share history went to 209 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 6: some piece. We went through UK the ten PMB together 210 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 6: and we were in student leadership and I'm just remembering 211 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 6: a funny moment we had some years back. I think 212 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 6: it was the residential election where I metged as a 213 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 6: president but from the caucus which was agreed upon a 214 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 6: different colleague was supposed to be the president, but the 215 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 6: other members repelled and they voted me as the president. 216 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 6: So there to call them Tomi as the youth leader 217 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,839 Speaker 6: for a n C structure and other comrades sending my 218 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 6: shitter to come and address this matter. So Tousey and 219 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 6: SEMy called me to the site. But now the funny 220 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 6: part they did not have a left to stand on. 221 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 6: But because I was a member in not in good standing, 222 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 6: so they couldn't discipline me for what it transpired in 223 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 6: the elections. It's nice to see how some PC has progressed. 224 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 6: And yeah, it was an interesting period during our student 225 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 6: politics at DUKS and PMP. 226 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 4: Sporn some piece. 227 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: M thank you so much. Tk scoring us there from Northcliffe, 228 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: Tat on the waterp line say hey, Clement, you have 229 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: the most calm and reserved person in studio now, mister 230 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: and Tully, I've never heard him shout or be uncout 231 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: even in parliament. That's a message there from Tato. 232 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: What do you. 233 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 2: Think because there are a lot of people who say 234 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 2: the way you communicate issues make sense. You are one 235 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 2: of the few spokespersons in the NC you are able 236 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: to just rationalize things and become and just make sense. 237 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 2: What do you attribute because you've been spokesperson in Gazilon 238 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: Natal before before you're even secretary. What do you attribute 239 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: that too? Because even with the g and U, you 240 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: were basically one of the spokespersons of the ANC during 241 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: the GNU, because you're involved in the negotiations. 242 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: Look like I said when I was commenting on the 243 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 3: issue around the influence that one has by various leaders 244 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 3: of the a n C, I mean, one of the 245 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: lessons that Eclement I have taken to heart is what 246 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 3: I read as having been said by one of our 247 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 3: best Central General, Walter as a Sulu, when he said 248 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 3: at some point that when the NC decided to elect 249 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 3: him as the sge. He decided that he's going to 250 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 3: leave Walter as a Sulu at home and take the 251 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 3: ANC Secretarity General to the ANC office. And that will 252 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 3: reflect even in the manner in which he related with 253 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 3: his colleagues the membership of the ANC, but society in general. 254 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: And for me. 255 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: That that that was one of the profound lessons that 256 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 3: one acquiet from the outstanding Walter as a Sulu. And 257 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 3: like I'm saying, I I because I'm young, I could 258 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 3: not have time really to observe that it is a 259 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: solo in action. The only person that so as president 260 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 3: all over time before that matter, the only person that 261 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 3: I had an opportunity for the past twenty years to 262 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 3: reserve in action has been president around big and I 263 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 3: have no recollection of him having gone out to say anything. 264 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 3: That is when is unprepared, when he is not composed, 265 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 3: when he is not deeply thought about what he's going 266 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 3: to say. And also with this understanding, as I'm saying, 267 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 3: with reference to what I read about what A says Soulo, 268 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 3: that when you step into the public on pair of 269 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: the National Congress, you are no longer communicating to your 270 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 3: colleagues and your members. You're communicating to the nation as 271 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 3: a whole, because historically the ANC has been understood by 272 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 3: South Africans as their own property, their own organization. So 273 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 3: even in Parliament when I have disagreements with the opposition parties, 274 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 3: I always have to remember that I have to act 275 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,479 Speaker 3: in a way that tomorrow can inspire the same opposition 276 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 3: members to say, I want to compact for those way 277 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 3: were once in the ANC. 278 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: I want to compack to the ANC, but equally. 279 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 3: In a way that makes those were internal in the 280 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 3: ANC feel comfortable that we are competently and effectively represented 281 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 3: in a way that it's dignified, and in a way 282 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 3: that in that consolidated they standing in the prestigio of 283 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 3: our movement. So that's what is really driving me as 284 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 3: and when I I not that I had done have 285 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 3: a moment where I get irritated, I do. But even 286 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: under those circumstances, I always recalled before I open my mouth. 287 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 3: But now I'm not speaking as missing too. I've got 288 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 3: to speak on pr of an important instrument of our people, 289 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 3: which is have condational congness. 290 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 2: Eleven thirty. I've got the latest to night witness news headlines. 291 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 2: When we come back, I see what's ups your cause 292 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 2: as well? On one, one, eight, eight, seven or two. 293 00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 2: Will get to them as we continue this conversation. 294 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: Hanging out with Clement, let's walk the talk. 295 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 2: It's twenty three minutes before twelve outlock, we're hanging out 296 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: with him. To mis seen in Duley this morning. Who 297 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 2: is the chief whip of the ANC in the National Assembly. 298 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 2: Let me go to your messages that have come through 299 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 2: so far. 300 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 7: Morning, Clement morneying to their listeners as well. Yeah, man, 301 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 7: not an ANC member, never voted ANC, but I think 302 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 7: tomis Sellindol is one of those leaders you know, you 303 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 7: you you know you can look up to as a 304 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 7: as a citizen. He's measured, come communicates well, you know 305 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 7: so Yeah, I think the NC has one of the 306 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 7: best deployees in Parliament. 307 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: In dot smart comment Getlon. 308 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 2: Thanks, thank you, Kanya. Another one on the what's the 309 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 2: blind sets? Clement Twissen is a very polished politician among 310 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 2: the A and C, among the very few. I must 311 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: say he's dignified and a good role model to the youth. 312 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: I can say if we say I really admire him 313 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: a lot, so a lot of people really appreciate the 314 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: work you do do But is it difficult would you say, 315 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: to speak for the A and C now? Then it 316 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: was many, many, many, many, many many years ago, because 317 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: of course of the challenges the ANC faces and sort 318 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 2: of the reaction it gets from members of the public 319 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 2: because they are a lot too no longer, as you 320 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 2: have seen through your members believe in the movement. How 321 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: difficult is it to represent the organization today? 322 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: Hell, look, it can be very difficult because. 323 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 3: The NC has been a governing party for the past 324 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 3: eight years, and along during that period a lot of 325 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 3: mistakes were committed. Great work costs done, but a lot 326 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 3: of mistakes were committed. And the problem is that some 327 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 3: of these mistakes were not committed at a certain level. 328 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 3: They were cutting across whether it's local government, provincial and 329 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 3: the national government and within the party itself. So there 330 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 3: are moments where when you step out to say something 331 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 3: on per off of the ANC, you feel like there's 332 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 3: a very strong wave of people who have already decided 333 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 3: before they hear you that they're not going to agree 334 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 3: with you. 335 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: And my own attitude has. 336 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 3: Always been that the best thing to do is to 337 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 3: be truthful, truthful, and be honest about whatever position that 338 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 3: you are communicating on perf of the ANC. Because people 339 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 3: are more educated now, they are more aware their access 340 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 3: information from different platforms, So there's no need to stand 341 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 3: up and want to shoogar court certain things. 342 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: If things are not good, you say them as they are. 343 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 3: If they are good, you also do so and and 344 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 3: let people judge on the basis of you having been 345 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: honest in your communication. 346 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you think that there's still an opportunity for 347 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 2: the ANC to win back the trust of the people 348 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 2: that have always supported the organization? Because the reason you, 349 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 2: as an a as the ANC have won the majority 350 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: of votes for thirty years is because there are a 351 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 2: lot of people who had trusted the organization and now 352 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 2: that has changed. But can the ANC win back that support? 353 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 2: Do you think? And if so, how do they go 354 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 2: about doing that? 355 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: It's a huge task. It's not impossible, but it's a 356 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: very huge task. 357 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 3: My own view is that it's probably going to have 358 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 3: to start with my generation and a few others who 359 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 3: may be slightly senior to us, who must understand that 360 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: there are few things that we have to do it 361 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 3: differently in order to restore the intercrect of our movement. 362 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 3: One of those is to to save our people who hatedly. 363 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: I mean, sure the ANC. 364 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 3: I should be content with that, and I should discharge 365 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 3: my responsibilities efficiently and effectively. Not because I see this 366 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 3: position as a stap pla that to become a minister 367 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 3: or anything of that sort. If anything like that comes 368 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 3: in the future, it should be upon us. But the 369 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 3: way in which I apply myself into the current responsibility 370 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 3: given to me by the movement must be beyond approach. 371 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: That is where we need to begin. 372 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,479 Speaker 3: And that applies at all levels of what we may 373 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 3: call the leadership and the membership of the organization. If 374 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 3: you're awad council, you've got to excel on that job. 375 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 3: If you are a minister, you must excite on that job. 376 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 3: So that because when you excele on your responsibility, you 377 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 3: are giving confidence to the population that there is a 378 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 3: future for theirth Condational Congress. And I'm saying it should 379 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 3: start with my generation because I think I would imagine 380 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 3: that the overWe majority within my generation will not want 381 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 3: to see a situation where when tomorrow we effectively inherit 382 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 3: the National Congress as an eth leadership of the movement 383 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 3: and the country, we're inheriting an organization that is not 384 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 3: a governing party. So I think it has to start 385 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 3: with us, not just for our own sake, for the 386 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 3: sake of our people, because the weaknesses in the ANC, 387 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 3: because of its dominance and size, we become by default 388 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 3: a challenge to the society as a whole. 389 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: But at the rate things are going now, there's no 390 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: way you're gonna inherit an A and C that is 391 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: stable or that is in charge in the majority at 392 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 2: the rate things are going now. Do you do you 393 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 2: agree with that? 394 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: So I understand that, But I think. 395 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 3: Our attitude, we we should approach to the mentality that 396 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 3: if we don't inherit an A and C that is 397 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 3: dominantly a governing but we must see it as our 398 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 3: responsibility to restore that moving forward, because I don't think 399 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 3: that is impossible. And I do think there are many 400 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 3: good men and women of Commress in their National Congress. 401 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 3: What even by genuine, genuine interests of the country and 402 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 3: the ANC. It's just that many of them are not 403 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 3: occupying positions where decisions are made so that they can 404 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 3: influence the direction into the person interests of our country. 405 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: You know what sometimes confuses members of the public. And 406 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 2: I'll use this example because it's a recent one, because 407 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 2: you said earlier, if you're a minister as well, you 408 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 2: need to be able to discharge your responsibility with a 409 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 2: lot of honor and respect and take that seriously. But 410 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 2: take for instance, someone like Inkaban Nobution and Kaban who 411 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 2: was a Minister of High Education. She showed such belligerent 412 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 2: attitude towards Parliament. The President was not even happy with her. 413 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 2: That's why she was fired, and yet she still emerges 414 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: as the Deputy Chief Whip of the a n C. 415 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 2: How explaining that to South Africans and what is what 416 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 2: exactly confuses them that the ANC is not serious about 417 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 2: accountability because if this person was better enough to be 418 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 2: fired by the men by the president, why is she 419 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 2: good enough to be hired as the deputy chief Whip 420 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 2: in the a n C. 421 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: Let me tell you what is. 422 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 3: Firstly, let me let me indicate her Clement that I'm 423 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 3: a deployee, so I don't take those decisions myself. They 424 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 3: are taken on my behalf. And I get told you 425 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 3: are a deployer, are a chief whip. And then I 426 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 3: also get told who becomes the temputy chief Whip and 427 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 3: all other responsibilities but let me tell you how I 428 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 3: understood what might have informed that position by the leadership. 429 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 1: Here you have a. 430 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 3: Relatively young person initially introduced as a minister and work 431 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 3: relatively well, to the extent that the feeling was that 432 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 3: probably she should be given a chance and be introducing 433 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 3: the executive, which is not a bad decision because at 434 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 3: our age, the el forties, we should in many countries. 435 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,239 Speaker 3: When you are in the age where we are, you're 436 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 3: already really assuming measure responsibilities in the country and in 437 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 3: the state. So then get promoted to become a minister, 438 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 3: set up the office, and the web begins and final 439 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 3: mistakes are committed. Remember I said, this is a relatively 440 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 3: young person, young leader of the organization, so you've got 441 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 3: to take very serious decision about that. And the President 442 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 3: decided that she must be fired, which was correct. She 443 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 3: got fired, remain in parliament as a paventcher. My own 444 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 3: observation as a chief with because now that she's in parliament, 445 00:26:55,320 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 3: she's full time under my watch and strutship. In terms 446 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 3: of leadership, he is a person who does not say, 447 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 3: because I was fired by the President, I'm not going 448 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 3: to come to parliamentary settings. I'm not going to attend 449 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 3: portfolio committees, so I'm just going to disappear or to 450 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 3: other things which are indicating my protest for having been 451 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 3: removing the executive. So my sense was that the leadership 452 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 3: is communicating a message that the firing by the president 453 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 3: was not intended to destroy you. 454 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: You are young, you committed a mistake. 455 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 3: We have a responsibility to rebel you, and if you're 456 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 3: demonstrating the capacity to be rehabilitated, then you must be 457 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 3: given a smaller responsibility to. 458 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: And I think that's that's fair enough, because I don't 459 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: want to usually someone who's got the skills. 460 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 3: And find you reclement To interject, she didn't steal any money, 461 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 3: she just there were areas of judgment to parliament. 462 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 2: Very But what I'm trying to say is I get 463 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 2: your point, and I agree you don't want to cancel 464 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 2: culture where someone makes a mistake and you just throw 465 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 2: them to this dark hole. People must be able to 466 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 2: be given a chance to do better if their rehability, 467 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 2: they're still in the movement, give them the opportunity. But 468 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 2: with the minister, I don't get a sense that she 469 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 2: takes accountability. 470 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: Hey, you mean the former ministers. 471 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 2: The former Minister, because even at the Ethics Committee when 472 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: you see she's trying to put the blame on the advisor. 473 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 2: And I'm sure now because the ruling is that she 474 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: has to go apologize, she'll be reprimanded by the National Assembly. 475 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: Maybe now she would mean the apology. But even when 476 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 2: the President removed her, the way she wrote that statement 477 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 2: confirming it was just so, it appeared so even disrespectful 478 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: towards the President. 479 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 3: I had an opportunity to discuss the issue of the 480 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 3: Ethics commit with her, it just to reflect on because 481 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 3: I was not part of the meeting when she appeared there. 482 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 3: But now that the report is out and it's going 483 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 3: to save before Parliament, as the Chief People, was obviously 484 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 3: very interested naturally on her understanding of what has happened. 485 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 3: I do think Clement that when the Speaker administers that 486 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 3: decision or that punishment, the reprimand by the Ethics Committee, 487 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 3: and for her to apologize, I'm at a point to 488 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 3: myself that I think at that time, I think from 489 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 3: where she is now, she has learned that even as 490 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 3: she was responding to these problems, whether as in the 491 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 3: Earth Commity, Ethics Committee or responding to the President, decision 492 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 3: to recall her. Many of those things were not relativen 493 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 3: by a well considered approach and a well considered view. 494 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 3: I think I think she now understands that mistakes were 495 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 3: committeded even including how she was justifying what actionings that 496 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 3: she has taken. I think we are likely to see 497 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 3: a different person out of what in cabinet known by 498 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 3: South Africans was. And my own view is that I think, 499 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 3: given on age, it may be wise that we give 500 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 3: an opportunity to see if she has a capacity to 501 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 3: reeve himself, which I think she does. 502 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 2: Okay, it's going up to ten minutes now before twelve 503 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 2: old clock, So let's go to your cause. Now on 504 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 2: oh one, one, eight, eight, three or seven or two. 505 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 2: You're calling us from Brooklyn. 506 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 4: Good morning, Good morning germen, Earler, go. 507 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: Ahead, who do how are you? I'm very well of 508 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: my brother. How are you? 509 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 4: Post Giga from nigrality ofs. 510 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: No No I remember, I remember very well. 511 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 4: How are you? 512 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: I'm very well, very well? 513 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 2: Are you? 514 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 4: I'm good man man To the point the twelve years 515 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 4: to come from now, these old people within the movement, 516 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 4: and all of them the Moro gro those people who 517 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 4: will tell you about all things they're faising out now, 518 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 4: they're slowly phasing out. In twelve years time, there's the 519 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 4: new leadership. I want. I want to to paint a 520 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 4: picture of assuming the position of being president in twefious 521 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 4: time and tell us where do you inversion this country 522 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 4: to be in say twenty forty. I'm just giving under 523 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 4: the GNU an majority, let's say, an agency as a 524 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 4: band god of the current government. So we do I 525 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 4: just want to hear what your vision is perhaps that 526 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 4: could work towards your presidency into time. 527 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 2: Thank Brooklyn, are you launching him now to try and 528 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 2: chal Thank you for that question, Brooklyn. Before you respond 529 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 2: to that, though, do you have an interest like would 530 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: you like to lead the ANC one day? And please 531 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 2: don't give me the political answer. If the branches say so, 532 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: then I can say I will see. 533 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: No, no, no, I won't give you that. 534 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 3: I mean Clement, by virtual of by the virtual of 535 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 3: the fact that I'm a member of the National Executive 536 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 3: commit It's given that I've got an interest to lead 537 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 3: the organization in whatever responsibility that may be designated by 538 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 3: the structures of the movement. I think where I think 539 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 3: we need to go obvious I've never thought of myself. 540 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: Being the president of the ANC. 541 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 3: I mean even when I stood in Secretor of General 542 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 3: two three years ago. It's not something that that had 543 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 3: been developing over time. It was decided by my comrades 544 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,720 Speaker 3: and colleagues just after the case that in provincial conference 545 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 3: that this is the person they think should be considered 546 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 3: for the estume. But what I think we need to 547 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 3: do the clement, which I'm very certain it's not impossible. 548 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 3: It's going to be difficult, but not impossible. You know 549 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 3: how the ancis started losing support amongst the people, it 550 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 3: was because of internal problems within the ANC. 551 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: That's why all problems speaking. 552 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 3: And when internal problems started to rise up and divisions 553 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 3: fight of leadership, what then happens in Britain is that 554 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 3: you get leadership that is elected following a very intense contestation. 555 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 3: And when the leadership is elected in the context like that, 556 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 3: you are able to retain the past at the highest 557 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 3: level of leadership, whether in the NEC, in the province 558 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 3: or in the region. The consequence of which is that 559 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 3: because you do not have the best, they are also 560 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 3: going to appoint their deployees in provinces, premiers, macs mayors 561 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 3: MMCs following the same script, which is not necessarily always 562 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,479 Speaker 3: adhering to the past that is available to save our 563 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 3: people and the movement at a given time. So how 564 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 3: we're going to turn around the corner? In my own view, 565 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 3: the first thing is that we've got to do everything 566 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 3: possible to stop the bleting of the ANC as a 567 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 3: result of internal contestation. Somebody will ask me how, because 568 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 3: already there are certain names being touted for the presidents 569 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 3: or any other position in twenty twenty seven. But it's 570 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 3: a conversation that we need to confront, I'm saying within 571 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 3: the leadership and more specifically within my own generation, because 572 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 3: at some point, as it was done in nineteen forties, 573 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 3: some people must stand up to stop what is happening 574 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 3: which is not right. 575 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,439 Speaker 1: It will intel sacrifices. 576 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 3: It might not work with the conference next year, maybe 577 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 3: work with the conference after that, but somebody's got to 578 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 3: begin somewhere and the seat must be planted. But when 579 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 3: we do so, we must recognize the fact that there 580 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 3: would be consequences because those who are opposed to a united, credible, 581 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 3: strong organization will always be very, very hostile towards and 582 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 3: agenda of electing a united leadership because I always argue 583 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 3: that Clement, if we choose a united a leadership that 584 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 3: is united, some of us won't qualify to be in 585 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 3: that leadership. And when I know I won't qualify. But 586 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 3: if I manipulate processes tends to win elections in the 587 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 3: n C, then I will be opposed to the unit 588 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 3: to talk. I would see it as not as a 589 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,959 Speaker 3: you need to but there's an exclusion of me. While 590 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 3: I think I've got other means to wish, I can 591 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 3: secure a position that I want, but it isn't a 592 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 3: gender that must never we must not allow to be 593 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 3: off our site. We've got to work for that because 594 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 3: it will be the beginning of the consolidation of their 595 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 3: condational congress. 596 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 2: Okay, are you going to try again for SG next 597 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: year in the conference? 598 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: It will depend if the structures of the n C. 599 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 3: Come to me and say we think that you must 600 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 3: go back and stand for whatever position they sold the site. 601 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 3: I will never say no to the structures of the 602 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 3: NC when they say so, of course, that that is 603 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 3: only the function offer to lepen when the processes are 604 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 3: formally open to I mean alien next day in particular. 605 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 2: MM hmm, well, thank you so much man for coming through. 606 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 2: It was lovely to really get to know you, get 607 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 2: your views, but also get to know how you started 608 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 2: your commitment for the struggle for freedom. Thank you so 609 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:16,919 Speaker 2: much for coming through. 610 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: Thanks, thanks very much, and thanks to you and your listeners. 611 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: Thank you. 612 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 2: All right, it's going up to four minutes now before 613 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 2: twelve o'clock.