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Speaker 1: As a book and a dish.

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Speaker 2: I'm seven noted.

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Speaker 1: A song, a book and a dish. It's that time

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Speaker 1: of the week.

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Speaker 3: We do it every Friday where we spend time with

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Speaker 3: somebody who you know for all sorts of reasons. They've

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Speaker 3: been in the news, you've heard about them, any things

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Speaker 3: they do. But there's something that you learn about them

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Speaker 3: when you ask them to pick a song to talk

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Speaker 3: about food, not just recipes and dishes, but food shared

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Speaker 3: and conversations round a table with family and friends.

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Speaker 1: And then, of course.

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Speaker 3: There's music which speaks in ways that words simply can't.

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Speaker 3: My guest has had a distinguished academic career, specializing in

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Speaker 3: maths education. She's been involved in the administration of university,

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Speaker 3: specifically the University of Cape Town, where she served as

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Speaker 3: vice chancellor, and she's been involved in the world of

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Speaker 3: business as well. Doctor Marmocheti Parquing, Welcome. It's great to

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Speaker 3: have you with us on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, John, thanks for invitinging.

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Speaker 3: We've been talking me interviewing you for many years now,

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Speaker 3: and more than twenty years ago I interviewed you about

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Speaker 3: the research you were doing in maths education, and I

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Speaker 3: want to start there not so much with the research

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Speaker 3: you did. But I want to ask you about your

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Speaker 3: love of maths. Do you know when it started and

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Speaker 3: do you know why? Because a lot of people would

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Speaker 3: say maths it was something to be endured. Clearly for you,

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Speaker 3: it was something that went way beyond enjoyment.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's quite unbelievable when I tell the story that

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Speaker 4: it's a fortune of being born in a family that

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Speaker 4: never talked about mathematics as being difficult.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I grew up in a.

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Speaker 4: Family my mother was a domestic work come. My dad

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Speaker 4: worked on radio in Radio Sitzwana, and I do a

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Speaker 4: bund to them and they expected excellence from us, and

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Speaker 4: so I found safety in mathematics. Frankly speaking, John, everything

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Speaker 4: else was difficult.

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Speaker 1: Did you have a particularly good teacher.

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Speaker 3: Because here's a family that is not putting any pressure

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Speaker 3: on you one way or another, but you do need God,

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Speaker 3: they put pressure.

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Speaker 4: They put pressure to perform. So you got a beating

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Speaker 4: if you got less than eighty percent. And if I pressure, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and if I get if I get a hundred for

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Speaker 4: maths and I get fifty four history, they beat me up. Okay,

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Speaker 4: because my dad never said, well you good in math?

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Speaker 4: So you can fail at anything. And of course I

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Speaker 4: got a hiding for all other things. But the truth

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Speaker 4: of the matter is that I didn't necessarily have good teachers.

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Speaker 4: In fact, I recall it very there's a vivid story

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Speaker 4: that I remember that my mother would help us with maths,

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Speaker 4: and then I went to school with the greater son

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Speaker 4: and less than science, and my teacher.

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Speaker 2: Had gotten them.

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Speaker 4: It was a teacher who was still training, you know,

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Speaker 4: they used to come to schools for a period, and

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Speaker 4: she she didn't.

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Speaker 2: Get that math, and my mother helped me.

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Speaker 4: I got there and my teacher met me wrong, and

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Speaker 4: my mother said, don't worry. She's going back to college

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Speaker 4: after the winter, after June, so don't worry.

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Speaker 2: You are right, you know.

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Speaker 4: So I didn't necessarily have good teachers. The only teacher

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Speaker 4: I remember who is outstanding was when I was doing

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Speaker 4: grade ten, and it wasn't even at my school.

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Speaker 2: It was at a winter school that we went to

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Speaker 2: winter school.

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Speaker 4: My school was running a physics winter school and this

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Speaker 4: was a maths winter school, and my parents said I

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Speaker 4: should go for the maths winter school, and I went

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Speaker 4: there and they introduced us to Euclidian geometry.

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Speaker 2: And the Penny drop. I got it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think from that time I went back

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Speaker 4: to school and my my grades went went up.

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Speaker 3: You know you you grew up in a rural part

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Speaker 3: Mara Piano Village. Yes, later in rank where you made

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Speaker 3: your life. But you but in the notes you sent us,

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Speaker 3: you tell us you went to lots of you kept

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Speaker 3: changing schools. Yeah, you can tell us why. But what

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Speaker 3: I'm more interested in did that affect you? Because a

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Speaker 3: key part of school is making friends, settling in, becoming

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Speaker 3: part of the netball team or joining the choir, the

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Speaker 3: stuff that unfolds along in different time timeline to the

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Speaker 3: school calendar.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that shaped you? If so, how I.

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Speaker 4: Think I think that disruption, that volatility in my life

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Speaker 4: actually probably helped me because at home, my mother says

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Speaker 4: I'm the introvert of the family. Nobody would believe it,

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Speaker 4: but I learned to make sure some eyebrows raised. Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: But it's because you don't know my siblings, do you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean? You just know me, and you

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Speaker 4: don't know how I was before I went through the experience.

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Speaker 4: You know me as an adult after being shaped by

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Speaker 4: the volatile volatility of moving schools, moving areas during aparadeid

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Speaker 4: during the homeland system and so on.

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Speaker 2: So so it helped me.

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Speaker 4: I think it helped me because I learned to make

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Speaker 4: friends quicker.

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Speaker 2: No environments face me.

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Speaker 4: I'm never faced by any environments I get into a place,

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Speaker 4: because I never spent more than two years in one school.

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Speaker 4: Two years is the most I spent in the twelve

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Speaker 4: years of basic education. And it was a function of

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Speaker 4: the socio economic standing of our family, the politics of

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Speaker 4: the country, because when when homelands came into being, school

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Speaker 4: systems changed in there was introduction of middle schools, and

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Speaker 4: so then you you have to move and so on.

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Speaker 4: You know, at some stage you have to live with

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Speaker 4: grandparents and so on, and so it was for some reason,

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Speaker 4: and I'm the only one at home who had this experience,

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Speaker 4: So for some reason, I was subject to to all

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Speaker 4: those disruptions happening more in my life than in any

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Speaker 4: of my siblings life. But I'm grateful for that, because

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Speaker 4: I don't think I would have been as daring as brave,

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Speaker 4: as as as.

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Speaker 2: Being able.

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Speaker 4: To swithstand disappointment, pressure and uncertainty as I am today.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about your dish you've chosen, fermented sorgm partner

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Speaker 3: with stew or mu or. But I'm interested in the food,

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Speaker 3: of course, but I'm very interested in the sharing of

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Speaker 3: food in this unstable environment.

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Speaker 1: In your educational.

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Speaker 3: Life was the dinner table and by extension, the family

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Speaker 3: life and anchor for you.

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Speaker 2: The family life wasn't anchor for me.

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Speaker 4: But it depends what you mean as by family, because

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Speaker 4: family in my culture is extended. So my grandparents were

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Speaker 4: part of the family at some stage. My uncles, I

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Speaker 4: mean at home, we lived with uncles from different sides

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Speaker 4: at different times. And when we were in Harangue, my

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Speaker 4: mom and dad were in Harankua, and so in Haranqua

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Speaker 4: we lived with my mom and dad, and then uncles

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Speaker 4: are from either my dad's brothers and their wives who

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Speaker 4: moved in with us because they didn't have accommodation, or

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Speaker 4: from my mother's side. And then of course when I

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Speaker 4: was in the village in Marapiano, was with my grandparents,

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Speaker 4: my paternal grandparents. So family was always important. But I

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Speaker 4: mean the idea of a dinner table, John was a luxury,

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Speaker 4: or let me say it was an unthinkable because it's

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Speaker 4: you know what, dinner table.

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Speaker 3: So when I say table, I'm not necessarily referring to furniture,

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Speaker 3: but I'm referring to a moment in a day, possibly

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Speaker 3: repeated to come to the week where people gather together

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Speaker 3: for food. So point taken, certainly, that table maybe you

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Speaker 3: know misleads and misses the point. But did you gather

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Speaker 3: and was was there a time of how was your day?

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Speaker 1: What did you do? Et cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: And I mean exactly the same by dinner table. Children

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Speaker 4: when I grew up were not allowed to sit around

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Speaker 4: the table and treat with parents, especially when my dad

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Speaker 4: with my mom. Yes, but when adults are talking. You

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Speaker 4: were not supposed to be partied to the conversation between adults.

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Speaker 4: During my time, you sat separately and ate.

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Speaker 2: But there was in the village.

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Speaker 4: You would sit under the tree lunch, you know, on

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Speaker 4: a Saturday, would be under the tree with the grandmother

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Speaker 4: whatever there was always the grandfather would be sitting somewhere

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Speaker 4: at home in the township. Again we sat in the kitchen,

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Speaker 4: but the adults would be sitting in the dining room,

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Speaker 4: you know, not around the dinner table, because there was

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Speaker 4: nothing like that. But it was like that separation was

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Speaker 4: so the idea of not being and people who know

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Speaker 4: Sitsuana would remember that as a child, you'd be told

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Speaker 4: not to be in paani, which means you shouldn't be

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Speaker 4: curious and listen to the conversations of adults.

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Speaker 2: That's being too nosy.

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Speaker 4: And so I didn't grow up in an environment where

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Speaker 4: you had to stay with parents.

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Speaker 2: There was a peppers when you set up.

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Speaker 4: Of course, we knew that we were laughed, we knew

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Speaker 4: that we were valued. They told us we're smart, and

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Speaker 4: my dad had time to play with us.

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't like we sit, we all eat and chat.

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Speaker 3: Now, so you did, I want to go back when

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Speaker 3: last reference to your food choice, because you did a

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Speaker 3: doctor of science at the University of Bristol, you did

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Speaker 3: a doctor of education at the University of Ottawa in Canada.

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Speaker 3: I'm just wondering where you found in those cold and

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Speaker 3: distant places.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing.

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Speaker 4: I was very fortunate that my scholarly work was recognized

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Speaker 4: through honorary doctorates from the universities.

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Speaker 2: But I did end my own doctorates.

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Speaker 4: And then Ottawa and Bristol gave me honorary doctorates. Of

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Speaker 4: course I was I was visiting Professor extraordinary professor at

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Speaker 4: the University of Bristol. But I didn't have to to,

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Speaker 4: you know, to spend four years doing the doctorate.

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Speaker 2: But here's the thing.

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Speaker 4: I mean, even in Cape Town fermented my ballet. Sorghum

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Speaker 4: is a rarity because you don't get sorghum easily in

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Speaker 4: the supermarket here, but I get it in julbag and

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Speaker 4: I buy didn't bring it here, and I fermented myself.

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Speaker 4: So you come to my house, I have fermented my

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Speaker 4: ballet or fermented ting.

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Speaker 2: Or whatever you call it, because it's something that I like.

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Speaker 4: When you travel fermentation, I'm sure you know cultures you

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Speaker 4: can put it in a little plastic bag. You just

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Speaker 4: need a teaspoon. When I get to where I'm going,

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Speaker 4: I mix it. It will be fermented tomorrow. That's how

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Speaker 4: cultures work. So it's it's quite easy when I travel

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Speaker 4: because I can just put it in a little plastic bag,

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Speaker 4: put whatever, put it in my luggage and I can

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Speaker 4: live in it up when I get to where I'm going.

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Speaker 3: You've chosen as your book because we need to turn

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Speaker 3: to that and make sure we have time for your

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Speaker 3: song as well. Nasim Nicholas Taleb has written a book

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Speaker 3: called Anti Fragile Things that gain from disorder. Interestingly enough,

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Speaker 3: he also has a mathematics background.

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Speaker 2: He does.

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Speaker 3: He's an econological statistician. He's been an analyst and economists

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Speaker 3: and amazing.

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Speaker 1: But your choice of the book tell us why.

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Speaker 4: Well, when I read I read the book by the way,

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Speaker 4: well so as VC in twenty twenty, and it was

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Speaker 4: introduced to me by my coach and taught me something

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Speaker 4: the value of being able to withstand pressure.

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Speaker 2: And it made me appreciate.

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Speaker 4: Hush environments, disappointments and because they come to make you

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Speaker 4: better nothing.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a difference.

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Speaker 4: He makes a difference between fragility, robustness, and anti fragility, right,

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Speaker 4: And oftentimes we say to people, encourage people to be resilient,

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Speaker 4: to be robust, but that's when you withstand pressure and

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Speaker 4: you stay the same. Anti fragility is that you bounce back,

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Speaker 4: you become better after their experience.

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Speaker 2: And so I.

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Speaker 4: Have learned to accept that and appreciate challenges and know

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Speaker 4: that after this I'm going to be better.

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Speaker 3: I want us to get into your song. Let's start

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Speaker 3: listening to chand la Mour, chand La Mour. I should

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Speaker 3: probably say it's called I have a father. You've chosen

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Speaker 3: it for a particular reason.

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Speaker 1: A share.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a Christian. I'm gonna again Christian.

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Speaker 4: I've told you that before, and this is my anthem.

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Speaker 4: You know, whatever happens, I mean it goes with the

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Speaker 4: anti fragility theme. You know, whatever happens, I have a

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Speaker 4: father who cares like no.

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Speaker 2: Weapon formed against me will prosper.

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Speaker 4: Ever, I'm turning sixty this year, and I know for

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Speaker 4: sure that no weapon has ever prospered and none will

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Speaker 4: ever prosper.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for sharing with us once again,

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Speaker 3: your sung, your book, and your dish. Doctor Marmochetti parking

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Speaker 3: our guest on seven o two Drive.

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Speaker 1: Let's enjoy the song.

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Speaker 5: Oh, no weapon form against me? No, he won't e

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Speaker 5: a brosper. I want to tell him me, no weapon

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Speaker 5: formed against me? No, we won't ever a braser