1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: The Money Show, Shape Shifters twenty four minutes now to 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: eighth the time. When you think of branding in South 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: Africa and you think of personalities in branding in South Africa, 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: you're probably in the end come back to one person. 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: I'm talking about someone who's had such an impact on 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: the branding industry, if I can call it that in 7 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: South Africa, that many people in fact call him the 8 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: brand father. I'm talking of course about Jeremy Samson. He's 9 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: been working in branding in South Africa since the nineteen 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: seventies and currently the chaired Brand Finance Africa. And I'm 11 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: very pleased to tell you I don't know how we 12 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: did it, but he's taken the time to come and 13 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: speak to us in our studio tonight. Jeremy Sampson's wonderful 14 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: to meet you again, and thank you so much for 15 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:41,639 Speaker 1: coming in. 16 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: Steven, it's my pleasure and thank you for having me. 17 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: You grew up in the UK, You studied at Canterbury College. 18 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: You worked in journalism in newspapers in those days. 19 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 2: He was a card caring member of the Union a 20 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: long time ago. 21 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: How did you go from that kind of life to 22 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: starting a brand agency? In South Africa. I mean there's 23 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 1: some similarities, but a lot of differences between those lives. 24 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: Well, if you go back to London at the end 25 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 2: of the Swinging sixties, it wasn't swinging. And when you're 26 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: in your first job and you've only been working for 27 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 2: eighteen months, two years, and then the Prime Minister of 28 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 2: the day, Harold Wilson, because the economy was so bad, 29 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: put a pay freeze on everyone, and people forget, you know, 30 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 2: the head of the country said, your salary is now frozen, 31 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: you're not going to earn more. And when you're starting 32 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 2: in your career and you're the bottom of the ladder. 33 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: And I just got married in London to a South 34 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: African lady and we discussed things and I looked for 35 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 2: other jobs and it was terrible over there. So I said, well, 36 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: it's about time I met your fakes. Let's go out 37 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: to South Africa and you know, going to South Africa 38 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: house and fitting in an application. And then they said, 39 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 2: well it might be better if you had a job 40 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: to go to and three letters because the post worked 41 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 2: in those days. And two weeks later I had two 42 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: job offers, so that made it simple. So out I 43 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: came and my timing was, well, I've been lucky on 44 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: lots of occasions. In this particular time, the timing coincided 45 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: with a top American design branding group called Unimark opening 46 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 2: an office in Johannesburg, so I joined them straight away 47 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: and that was the start of my career in South Africa. 48 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the world of branding now and 49 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: we'll talk about it a bit later, if we may, 50 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: is sort of huge and vast and multi varied. What 51 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: was it like then in South Africa? Then we shouldn't 52 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: forget in a Part eight country, so a completely different 53 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: environment to what we understand now. 54 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and it was more the design world. You designed 55 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: logos and you designed logo systems. Unimark probably your listeners 56 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 2: haven't heard of it, but it was from Chicago. It 57 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: had about I think eight offices around the world, and 58 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 2: they had just finished redoing the entire corporate identity of 59 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 2: the Ford Motor Corporation. And I remember they had eight 60 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: big manuals, this thick of everything you could do and 61 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: couldn't do with the logo and the color and the typeface. 62 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 2: So it was actually fantastic because I was learning about 63 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 2: systems design and all sorts of things like that. 64 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: So in those days, if you were trying to create 65 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: a brand and then to make sure that your brand 66 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: had an impact. Nowadays people can really create a brand 67 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: by being clever using social media. You do need money 68 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: and you need organization. But in those days, I imagine 69 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: most of it was advertising, by which I mean paid 70 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: for advertising. 71 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 2: You're probably right, but no, I always say, the cornerstone 72 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 2: of a brand really is the name. And then once 73 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: you've got the name and it's registered and you were 74 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: talking about it in your earlier segment. Once it's registered 75 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: and protected, then you need a logo, and then you 76 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: need color, and then you need to create a system. 77 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: But in those days it was just about that, no design, 78 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: and that Today you have the mission, the vision, the values, 79 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: what it stands for, what its purpose is. You know, 80 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 2: you've got all these layers of the onion around the 81 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: brand nowadays. And of course the other thing is that 82 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: a lot of people forget often when it comes to 83 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: a company, their brands are the most valuable financial assets. 84 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: So you're working for a bunch of Americans from Chicago. 85 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: You decided to go up on your own. Why did 86 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: you decide to do that? Was there an opportunity, was 87 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: there a client you like? 88 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: It was more complicated than that, Stephen. First of all, 89 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: it always twelve months of the Americans was enough. And 90 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: I was poached to an advertising group which was the 91 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 2: precursor to gray advertising. But you're too young to remember 92 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: the first mutual funds in South Africa David Abramson and 93 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 2: working on those as the designer within the ad agency, 94 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: and then he got fired and the agency had to 95 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 2: cut back, and on the basis that last in first out, 96 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: I got fired and that was after only nine months. 97 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 2: And here am i. I've in South Africa two and 98 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: a half years and I'm unemployed. And I was very 99 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: fortunate that a printing group approached me and said, we 100 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: have a little studio with two people. Won't you join us? 101 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 2: And to be honest, my choice was limited, so I 102 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 2: said quickly yes, and what three years later we were 103 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: up to about twenty people. And that's when I went 104 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 2: on my own when a major public relations group in 105 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: the country at the time, Roll Moronstein's and Ferreira turned 106 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 2: and said, come on, you know, you need to go 107 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 2: on your own. So that was nineteen seventy three. 108 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: So you go through the seventies and into the eighties, 109 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: and the world is speeding up, it's getting more complicated. 110 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: Television arrived in South Africa, I mean, possibly the last 111 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: country on the planet that together it in nineteen seventy six. 112 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: What did that mean for your business? Did it create 113 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: more opportunity? Did it create more competition? 114 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: I started the business basically producing an reports and and 115 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 2: reports were great because you had the precision of what 116 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: time of the year they came out, so whether you 117 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: were in one of the quarters or calendar or six months. 118 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 2: And we were up to quite quickly fifteen or sixteen 119 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 2: an reports and big ones like ned Bank. I did 120 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: for about twelve years, and that became half of the business, 121 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 2: and the logos and the systems and exhibitions and other 122 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: work was the other half of the business. And that 123 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: kept the balance going. And as you say, it was 124 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 2: evolving fast, but we developed a niche and in those 125 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: days it was technologically limiting. We didn't have computers. I 126 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: during that time became president of Society Designers of South 127 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: Africa and every two years, at my own expense, I'd 128 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 2: go to the World Congress and meet other people and 129 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 2: represent South Africa, which was interesting in those days, as 130 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 2: you say, it was a part eight era, and sometimes 131 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 2: it was very uncomfortable. But in nineteen eighty five at 132 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: the conference in Washington, they had a fantastic expo and 133 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: there was a display of something called Apple and the 134 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 2: first time I was conscious of Apple. And I have 135 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 2: to say that coming back to South Africa, within a 136 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: couple of months we had two computers, one for my 137 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: number two and one for myself. It probably took me 138 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: a few weeks to learn how to even switch the 139 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: damn thing on. But that was the start of my 140 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: relationship with Apple, as well as computers were coming into 141 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: the business. 142 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: I mean computers, and I know they revolutionized. You know, 143 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: you wouldn't have had a newspaper like what became the 144 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: Mail and Guardian without it in the eighties. What did 145 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: that do for branding? I mean you could suddenly do 146 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: so much more, You could design so much more quickly. 147 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 2: It took a while, and I have to say that 148 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: I left the country in eighty seven. I was headhunted 149 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: and went back to London. And I went back to 150 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: London for five years and found that they weren't using 151 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: computers a tool for design in those days. They were 152 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: behind the curve and then coming back to South Africa 153 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety two and representing inter brand to begin with, 154 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 2: and then brand Finance. Then we were just deluged with 155 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: tech as it continues today, I know, with chat GBT, 156 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Knows your new mate, 157 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: Claude whatever, you know, And this is where it's changing 158 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: by the day. 159 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: So I mean, you've made the point that the world 160 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: changes and something that's sort of acceptable ex scene as 161 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: the way of the world on Monday, can be completely 162 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: swept away on Tuesday. And I was thinking a little 163 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: bit about that. So the branding world in South Africa 164 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: from say nineteen eighty nine to nineteen ninety one, let 165 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: me just put this in context because during that same period, 166 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: Russia went from the Soviet Union to having the former 167 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: leader of the Soviet Union, Michel Gorbachev, appearing in an 168 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 1: advert for Pizzat Okay, I mean famously. I mean I 169 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: looked this up because I didn't believe it at the time. 170 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: But the pen that Gorbachev used to dissolve the Soviet 171 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: Union he had to borrow from a CNN and CNN cameraman, 172 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's an extraordinary story. Ted Tourniquet the pen 173 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: in case if you were wondering, so to go from 174 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: a kind of era, a Cold War era for the 175 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: entire world, where large parts of the world were in 176 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: a form of repression, including here, to suddenly a lot 177 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: of openness in the early nineties must have just been 178 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: the most amazing time for a branding person. 179 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 2: Well, it was amazing because to start with, the word 180 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 2: brand wasn't used that yeash in the seventies and eighties. 181 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 2: But then as we got to the nineties, people were 182 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: beginning to realize that the value of companies wasn't just 183 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 2: bricks and mortar and machinery. Increasingly it was other things 184 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: called IP. Intellectual property and patents and copyrights were the 185 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 2: first issue, but then increasingly it became brand and that 186 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: area of intellectual property. Today, if I tell you the 187 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: top one hundred brands in the world of their market 188 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 2: cap and otherwise their share price cumulatively over thirty percent 189 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: is not on the balance sheet because it comes from IP, 190 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 2: the value of brands and that sort of thing, And 191 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: we still have the accounting world fighting with each other. 192 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: There is no one way of doing things. 193 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: Now. 194 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: If I say to you, and I usually get a 195 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 2: smile when I get this, and I say, what's the 196 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: difference between Johnny Walker whiskey and Smirnoff Vodka, And the 197 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: difference is because they're both owned by Diageo. That because 198 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 2: Smirnoff Vodka was acquired and therefore bought, they can put 199 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: the value on the balance sheet. But because Johnny Walker 200 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: is homegrown, you can't. 201 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: Sure. People in the tech world now talk about a moat. 202 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: You need to keep innovating. You need to have something 203 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: that nobody else does. Was a brand then and is 204 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: a brand maybe now? Orso a moat? 205 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 2: Interesting question, but you know this is where sometimes logos 206 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: change today. Why because they were blobs in the past, 207 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: whereas today you want to bring them to life, you 208 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: want to animate them, you want to do things with 209 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 2: them on social media. And that's one of the reasons 210 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: people change logos today. It's very expensive and you have 211 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: copyright law, so you have to be very careful. But 212 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 2: a lot of people have changed their logos because they 213 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 2: weren't fit for purpose in today's tech world. 214 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: We're going to talk a little bit about logos and 215 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: things that have changed, and also about brands that change. 216 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: In brands that fail. Jeremy Samson is your shape shift 217 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: of this evening. He's the chaired Brand Finance Africa. The 218 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: Money Show shape shifters eleven minutes to eighth the time 219 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: your shape shift tonight. Jeremy Samson the chair of Brand 220 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: Finance Africa. Some people call him the brand Father. He's 221 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: been involved in branding in South Africa for so long. Jeremy, 222 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: there's a specific brand I'd like to talk to you about, 223 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: both to get your view on working on it and 224 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 1: your view of it. And it's the brand of the 225 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: spring box of the rugby team. Am I right? Did 226 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: you work on it before the ninety five World Cup? 227 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: I mean it's had several changes over the years. 228 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 2: Just to take a short step back, Stephen, I've worked 229 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 2: with Louis late when he ran Trim Fertilizer, and as 230 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier, I did a lot of ANNA reports 231 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: and I did his ann report for about ten years 232 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: and then moved into Ellis Park as the head of 233 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: South African Rugby and he called me across and said, right, 234 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of design to do here. 235 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 2: We'll start with the transfile rugby and report and then 236 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: from there we just carried on and created the Lions brand, 237 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 2: and then we had the World Cup and we did 238 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: most of the design for that, even the banners around 239 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: the country, you know, the tickets and all that sort 240 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: of stuff. And then immediately after the World Cup there 241 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 2: was huge pressure from the A and C to change 242 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: and as you know, in those days in South Africa 243 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: it was quite volatile. We were in the early days 244 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 2: of transformation. And he called me down and he said, right, 245 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 2: we've got to do something because otherwise the Springbok will 246 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: not survive. And that started the process. 247 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: One of the things you did was turn it around. 248 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 2: You know, when you think of what can you do quickly? 249 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: You have limited options. Getting a new logo, well, well 250 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 2: that would have taken a lot of argument and debate, 251 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 2: and then you have to register it and copyright it 252 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 2: around the world. So I think Argentina, Australia and New Zeena, 253 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 2: the rugby playing world, and that would have all taken weeks, 254 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: if not months. So I looked at the whole thing 255 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: and I went away after he briefed me. We discussed 256 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 2: it one on one and I came back and I said, 257 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: I think the solution is to flip it he said, 258 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 2: what you mean, and I said, I'm going to change 259 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 2: the direction, but that then becomes the Springbok sitting on 260 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 2: top of the Unity King Protea at the time. And 261 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 2: that's what we did. And the big thing was though 262 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: we created a brand story. I'm sure you've heard the 263 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: brands have to have stories. Well, the first thing I 264 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 2: said was is this well, has it got a story? 265 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 2: And he said what do you mean? And I said, well, 266 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 2: you know, here we are in ninety late nineties. How 267 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: long has the Springbok been around? And he said, I'm 268 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: not sure. 269 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 1: In nineteen nine six, every one will tell you. 270 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 2: Well, we didn't know that at the time, and the 271 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 2: answer was a scrapbook in Stellenbosch and Danny Craven who'd 272 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 2: been running south afton Roga, and in that scrap book 273 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 2: was the history and they brought it up to Johannesburg 274 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: to Ellis Park and I took some of my team 275 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: down there and we went through it, and out of 276 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 2: that we were able to track the logos from nineteen 277 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: oh six and we had six iterations and we drew 278 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: them up as they'd never been drawn out properly before. 279 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: We put it into a brochure and then we wrote 280 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 2: a story about the history because in fact it goes 281 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: back to I think is about eighteen eighty seven. They 282 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: only had a logo from about nineteen oh six, and 283 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: we said, this is the evolution of the spring Book 284 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: and brands can change because they'll stand for different things 285 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: through history. And in fact I wrote the story, we 286 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: produced a brochure and that's how we marketed it and 287 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 2: we launched it as well as the new spring Book 288 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: logo for the New South Africa. 289 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: So one of the things that's amazed me since around 290 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four, and I don't know if you'll be 291 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: a aware of this, that the ANC produces several different 292 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: manifesto documents and then their Biggie Manifesto document that year 293 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: for the twenty twenty four election. One of the things 294 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: I've always produced as far as I've been covering South 295 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: African politics is a sort of thirty page, very detailed document. 296 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: It's for the hardcore political FUNDAI of which you know, 297 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: and in there one of their images of President Sara 298 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: Roma Pausa with the spring Box from the year before, 299 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: which was the twenty twenty three Rugby World Cup victory, 300 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: and I couldn't stop thinking about it. And I use 301 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: it as an example because in nineteen eighty nine, I 302 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: don't think any human being on the planet would have 303 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: been able to take a long bet that in twenty 304 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: twenty four the African National Congress would, out of its 305 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: own choice, would choose would believe there is political capital 306 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: in using an image of the spring Bok. How does 307 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: a brand change? And that's a fundamental change that no 308 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 1: one could really have forced over a long period of time' Sure, 309 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: a lot had to happen, including winning World Cups, including 310 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: transformation in rugby, including a black spring Book rugby captain, 311 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: including two kind of almost unexpected back to back World 312 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: Cup victories, but still it's immense. 313 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 2: I go back to and I mentioned this off aired 314 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 2: you being in this studio with Bruce Whitfield having a 315 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: similar conversation and in the end he said, you saved 316 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: the Springbok. I said, yes, because it's part of a process, 317 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: it's part of a whole team. But as you've just explained, 318 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: what that team has achieved over the last thirty years 319 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 2: or so is amazing, and there've been so many fantastic ambassadors, 320 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 2: Sir Calisi. Of course people think of and he's fantastic, 321 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: but there are lots of others as well, and collectively 322 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: and what they've done on the field, you know, And 323 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: here you have Russia Erasmus almost the bad image of 324 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: the past, if you could say that, doing an incredible 325 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: job as a magician with that team and building it up. 326 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 2: So it's a total effort. But this is where brands 327 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 2: have to transform, They have to change, they have to 328 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: just they have to stay relevant in today's times. And relevancy, 329 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 2: in my Bible, is one of the key words of 330 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 2: any brand. If it doesn't stay relevant, it dies. And 331 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 2: there are lots of examples, and one of them is Kodak, 332 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 2: which some of your younger listeners might not even know 333 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: about today, but no, that dominated photography for over one 334 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 2: hundred years. And it's the same for anything, a person, 335 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 2: a political party, a product, a service. If you don't 336 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 2: stay relevant with all the competition today, you'll die. 337 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: And I mean another great brand is knockim. My first 338 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: probably three or four phones were Nokias, I think, and 339 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: that's changed fundamentally. And is that just because Apple's brand 340 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: was better, but also because their tech was better. 341 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: The story I heard was that Nokia had all the 342 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 2: technology ready for the next phase, but they thought they 343 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 2: could sweat the existing technology for another period of time. 344 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: And obviously it's like a super tanker, you can't turn 345 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 2: it around that fast. They made the decision to sweat 346 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: it and they got nailed by BlackBerry and then Apple. 347 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: Your industry now a lot more competitive, I presume. Do 348 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: you have to work harder to stay on top? 349 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: You have to work always in any field you know, 350 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 2: work harder and there are new challenges coming from left field. 351 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: You don't know about. Branding now is a word that 352 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: gets tossed around, you know, all the time. You can 353 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: hardly have any conversations or listen to anything without people 354 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 2: talking about brands and branding. But the one thing I 355 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 2: would say is the brand today is everything. It's not 356 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 2: just a product or a service. You're a brand. Seven 357 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: O Tour is a brand South Africa. As a brand, 358 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 2: it covers everything. 359 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: Away from branding. And I know for someone like you, 360 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: you live and breathe it even when you're not working. 361 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: You enjoy cooking. 362 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: I do in our household. My wife cooks for three 363 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 2: nights and I cook for three nights and often we 364 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 2: have a takeaway. One of the nights, but I tend 365 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,199 Speaker 2: to do the cooking at the weekend, and it's probably 366 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: a little bit rustic for some people, but no, we 367 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 2: have a regiment and I enjoy it. And in fact, 368 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 2: I was browsing around at Hyde Park shopping Center looking 369 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: at the exclusive books all lined up outside, and I 370 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: picked up a book on French cookery at the weekend, 371 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: which will really challenge me. But why not. Let's have 372 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: a challenge and travel. 373 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: Are they particular things places you like to go, but 374 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: or a place you've been to in South Africa or 375 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: somewhere else that sticks with you in your head sometimes. 376 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: Book I love traveling, as I say, for ten years 377 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: I was president of Society Designers and every two years 378 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: we went off somewhere exotic from Mexico City to whatever 379 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 2: withinter brand and brand finance and your conferences and that 380 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: sort of thing. So I enjoyed traveling and I think 381 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 2: it's the best way to educate. Where would I go 382 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: and live if I wasn't living in South Africa, Probably 383 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: somewhere like the Amalfi Coast in Italy. God afford it. 384 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: No one can unless you're already living in Cape Town. 385 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: Someone entering your industry now. Advice for them, don't do it. 386 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: Be good at chet GBT. 387 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 2: Okay, I've been lucky. I've been able to morph from 388 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: being a designer to being a brander. I would say 389 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: it's very, very exciting, but I'm very very concerned about 390 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 2: people being churned out by the universities today who are 391 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: either unemployable or not fit for purpose. And branding now 392 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: is like any industry being turned upside down by technology. 393 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: Jeremy, it's been wonderful having you in our studio. Thank 394 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: you so much. Thank you you to really do appreciate 395 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: you coming in. Jeremy Samson is the chaired Brand Finance Africa.