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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven

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Speaker 1: oh two.

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Speaker 2: Let's walk at all.

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Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Croutis is brought to you

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Speaker 3: by ABS of Corporate and Investment Banking, proud sponsor of

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Speaker 3: the LMA ICMA Loan and Capital Markets Africa Summer twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty six. Absens are registered FSP. Good evening, Welcome to

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Speaker 3: the program. I'm Stephen Curtis. Nine minutes after six the time.

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Speaker 3: Very interesting to watch the JCU and tariff's still the

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Speaker 3: dominant issue in so many markets at the moment, certainly

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Speaker 3: pushing the gold price up. No one really knows what

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Speaker 3: the US President Donald Trump is going to do next,

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Speaker 3: and you just get a sense of that uncertainty that

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Speaker 3: we spoke of on Friday immediately after the Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: rulings taking a hold in some ways, which is I

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Speaker 3: suppose in a way good for us because the gold

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Speaker 3: price goes so much higher, but still very interesting just

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Speaker 3: to see it all play out. A SASIL reporting today,

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Speaker 3: we'll speak to Simon Beloy, their CEO, in just a moment.

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Speaker 3: I've never really understood what banks are playing at with

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Speaker 3: all of these stories that we hear of them. Repossessing

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Speaker 3: homes because people owe money they haven't kept up with

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Speaker 3: their debt. The banks are allowed to do that, but

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Speaker 3: then they sell the property for less than they're actually worth.

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Speaker 3: And I remember growing up and hearing about bank auctions

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Speaker 3: and all of that. People would rush there. I just

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Speaker 3: don't understand why on health you earth you would do it.

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Speaker 3: You're a financial institution, surely you want to get the

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Speaker 3: most that you can from the asset. Well, we'll get

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Speaker 3: a deeper understanding of that. Gehar Van AMV is a

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Speaker 3: consumer law attorney at Trudy Brookman Attorneys in about ten

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Speaker 3: minutes from now. That case by the way going through

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Speaker 3: the joe Burg High Court. At the moment, the Tonguart

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Speaker 3: Hewlett story getting more and more interesting, and the Amma

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Speaker 3: Bungani Center for Investigative Journalism had a different take on it,

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Speaker 3: something I hadn't seen before, and I thought it would

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Speaker 3: be important to speak to their managing partner, Sam Soul

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Speaker 3: about that. But there's a lot going on and essentially

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Speaker 3: a kind of corporate takeover of the use of a

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Speaker 3: what he called, I think a debt bomb, and just

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Speaker 3: get a deeper understanding of that before. According to seven

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Speaker 3: and then I'd really like to ask you a question

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Speaker 3: about this, if I may, about your municipal bill. Rebecca

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Speaker 3: Davis and Daily Maverick's been looking at what's going on

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Speaker 3: in Cape Town. There's been so many complaints about city

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Speaker 3: bills there. But here's my question to you. What is

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Speaker 3: the strangest charge you've ever seen on your council bill?

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Speaker 3: I mean, for some people it might just be the

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Speaker 3: new network new esh network fee at City Power, which

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Speaker 3: didn't really exist before. For prepaid customers, it might be

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Speaker 3: something completely different. I don't know if anyone has ever

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Speaker 3: gone to check their bills after a long strike by

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Speaker 3: the people who pick up rubbish? Are you still paying

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Speaker 3: for the service? Are you but you're not getting it?

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Speaker 3: What happens then, strangest thing you've ever seen on a

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Speaker 3: council bill? Please seven two seven two one seven oh

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Speaker 3: two you can call as well, and no double one

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Speaker 3: double a three oh seven two and two one four

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Speaker 3: four six five sixty seven. Good to hear from you tonight,

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Speaker 3: Good evening at eleven minutes offter eight.

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Speaker 4: The Loney Show with Stephen crudis live on ninety two

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Speaker 4: point seven and one six FM, streaming on the Prime Media.

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Speaker 1: Plus NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 3: Well SASA reporting today lower international oil prices have pushed

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Speaker 3: their headline earnings down by thirty four percent. Chemical prices

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Speaker 3: were lower as well. Simon Beloy is the CEO at SASIL. Simon,

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Speaker 3: good evening and thanks so much for your time. How

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Speaker 3: much of an impacted lower oil prices have on your

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Speaker 3: overall results.

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Speaker 5: Even evening to your listeners. Yes, I mean as you

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Speaker 5: correct his data, I mean the the macross I mean

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Speaker 5: impacted us.

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Speaker 6: I love you.

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Speaker 5: So we saw seventeen percent deadline I mean in these

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Speaker 5: macro headroins. So so i'll gross imagine came down by by

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Speaker 5: six percent from from fifty four bideon rants to fifty

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Speaker 5: one and the said I mean similar period last year

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Speaker 5: we were at around twenty four billion rants were now

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Speaker 5: at twenty one, so it was a twelve percent diagline

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Speaker 5: in the I just adbita, but I mean, I'm pleased

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Speaker 5: with the response of the team due to facing these conditions,

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Speaker 5: but focusing on the controllables because for the first time,

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Speaker 5: I mean in four years, we saw the company ending

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Speaker 5: h one I mean twenty six on a positive free

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Speaker 5: cash flow.

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Speaker 3: I mean your problem with oil prices is that there's

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Speaker 3: oversupply on world markets at the moment, so prices are

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Speaker 3: not going to move up for some time, and as well,

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Speaker 3: I suppose keep you under pressure.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, the pleasure is going to remain for us.

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Speaker 5: But I mean our job and duty as team starso

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Speaker 5: is to focus on the controllables. And if you look

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Speaker 5: at our cash fixed costs will be down I mean

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Speaker 5: for comparable piros by by two percent to thirty four

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Speaker 5: billion rants from thirty five. Our keypex is down by

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Speaker 5: around forty percent. We've we come down on kpex and

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Speaker 5: then the production ramp up in our secund the facility

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Speaker 5: that's up ten percent I mean for comparable periods. So so

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Speaker 5: we're focusing heavily on the controllables and to to fat

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Speaker 5: and mitigate I mean these lower all prices to protect

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Speaker 5: our balance seat we are I mean we have a

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Speaker 5: comprehensive haging program.

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Speaker 6: I mean we don't have a lot of volumes.

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Speaker 5: For for oil, we have a hash cover ratio of

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Speaker 5: fifty around fifty to sixty five percent, and for the

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Speaker 5: exchange rate we have a hash cover ratio of twenty

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Speaker 5: to twenty five percent.

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Speaker 6: Just to protect the balance seats.

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Speaker 5: So all that we can do is to focus on

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Speaker 5: the controllables to bring down our break even price as

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Speaker 5: low as we can.

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Speaker 6: And we are currently on target.

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Speaker 5: For for what we promise at CMD for financial fetunity.

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Speaker 3: Your your sales volumes overall, we're up three percent. Is

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Speaker 3: there anything in particular driving that? I mean, do you

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Speaker 3: believe that your sales will continue to increase it about

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Speaker 3: that rate?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, we believe that.

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Speaker 5: I mean for your yeah, I mean financially twenty six

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Speaker 5: versus twenty five, our sales volume should be should be

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Speaker 5: I mean about I mean, we did give a guidance

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Speaker 5: of zero to five percent, so so we should maintain

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Speaker 5: that because that's driven primarily by higher production that we've

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Speaker 5: seen coming out of Secunda, but also I mean heaving

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Speaker 5: higher production coming out of Natreff.

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Speaker 6: You remember not Drift. There was a JD and the

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Speaker 6: JV partner there. They all about thirty three percent.

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Speaker 5: They file for business rescue, so we stepped into their

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Speaker 5: capacity and utualizing the thirty three percent. So so a

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Speaker 5: combination of these two is helping us to lift up

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Speaker 5: the the lucid fous volume, and the production in Secunda

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Speaker 5: is helping us on both the liquid fool volume and

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Speaker 5: the chemicals volume. So so that sh will continue because

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Speaker 5: our focus into the second half is to make sure

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Speaker 5: that we maintain a stable operation to support those sales.

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Speaker 3: Volume the d stoning plant and this helps you remove

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Speaker 3: stones and rock from the coal you produce, and I

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Speaker 3: presume it makes your entire operation a lot more Effeciently

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Speaker 3: they came online, I think the same. What impact is

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Speaker 3: it having on your operations?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, with the peace and I mean I'm thankful to

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Speaker 5: the team for both the mining colleagues and the SECONDAR

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Speaker 5: colleagues for jointly working together collaborating to bring that plant online,

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Speaker 5: I mean the speed that we did and within I

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Speaker 5: mean within the capital allocated for it. So so that's

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Speaker 5: helping us to at least make sure that the quality

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Speaker 5: going to the SECONDAR operations that that's the quality that

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Speaker 5: we want. We we did give that indication we should

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Speaker 5: be around a twelve percent mark for the things and

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Speaker 5: we're operating thereabout. So so all that we need to

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Speaker 5: do now is to continue to our program to work

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Speaker 5: on the reliability and availability of our guest convention plants

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Speaker 5: and that that's on going. So that should help us

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Speaker 5: to maintain our market guidance on the production from Secunda.

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Speaker 3: On the high end, you were able to cut your

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Speaker 3: costs at Internet at your international chemicals division. What were

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Speaker 3: you doing to cut costs there? I mean, is there

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Speaker 3: a matroscope left for more savings?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: Firstly years there is scope. I mean, so so there

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Speaker 6: is scope.

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Speaker 5: We will still continue to prosh on those cares optimization leavers.

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Speaker 5: I I could just briefly tell you that what we

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Speaker 5: did there the primary levers, I mean, the first one

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Speaker 5: to cast costs was to look at them and all

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Speaker 5: our labor costs, so so we have and then optimize

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Speaker 5: our libor costs in that business. Then we looked at

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Speaker 5: businesses that we say really negative and those businesses we

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Speaker 5: were able to mouthball them. So those business have been

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Speaker 5: mouth balled in the response to the prevailing market conditions.

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Speaker 5: And therefore, by remote building those businesses, you can take

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Speaker 5: out the cost that does maintenance costs and we can

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Speaker 5: also take I mean the labor costs associated with those

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Speaker 5: four units.

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Speaker 6: That we previously announced. Yeah, there is scope.

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Speaker 5: We're busy with an EIRP system in those facilities and

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Speaker 5: we think that's going to I mean improve our labor

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Speaker 5: and supply chain commercial efficiencies and that should take out

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Speaker 5: further cost of that business. And we need to do

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Speaker 5: that because we've seen almost what a cost changes, especially

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Speaker 5: in the international chemical space as far as chemicals are consent,

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Speaker 5: which means not that to compete, you have to work

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Speaker 5: hard at your input, make sure you're selling the right

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Speaker 5: channels to improve every imagines and if you do that,

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Speaker 5: then you can also be competitive with ps. So, so

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Speaker 5: that's focused in those businesses is going to continue. And finally,

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Speaker 5: I mean, we've got lots of plans all over and

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Speaker 5: where we'll be looking at making sure that the utilization

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Speaker 5: and in those plants is it where it needs to be.

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Speaker 5: Either we sell up those plants or we originalize and

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Speaker 5: run some of the plans that maximum capacity. So the

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Speaker 5: scope is there and we continue working on it in

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Speaker 5: response to what we're seeing in the market in those areas,

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Speaker 5: especially in the international businesses.

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Speaker 3: Some I mean you run an international field and chemicals business,

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Speaker 3: we're seeing how geopolitics is having such a big impact

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Speaker 3: on markets. You're exposed in all sorts of ways through

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Speaker 3: no fault of your own, but currency swings, oil prices,

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Speaker 3: all of it. Do you worry about the geopolitical situation.

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Speaker 3: And as you say, you control what you can control.

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Speaker 3: But even by controlling what you can control, there are

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Speaker 3: things that are uncontrollable that could really have a huge

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Speaker 3: impact on you.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you're quite correct, Steven.

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Speaker 5: I think the uncontrollables, I mean, if you're not ready,

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Speaker 5: that can have a massive impact on you. So so

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Speaker 5: so what you do I exists for us is to

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Speaker 5: firstly maximize free caustual generation from our operating activities.

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Speaker 7: Do well.

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Speaker 5: So so that we're going to do, we are likely

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Speaker 5: that we've got multiple streams of income by heaving operations

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Speaker 5: spread over in the US, in South Africa, in Europe,

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Speaker 5: in China, and in the Middle East. So so that

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Speaker 5: helps us to have multiple income streams, but that also

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Speaker 5: exposes us to the geopolitics. We do have a comprehensive

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Speaker 5: heging ratio to at least protect our balance sheet. We

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Speaker 5: didn't hedge all our products, but we will be haging

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Speaker 5: I mean enough to protect our balance sheet.

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Speaker 6: And and then and with that, I mean we.

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Speaker 5: Will have to be ready for any eventuality to make

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Speaker 5: sure there says enable resilient business.

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Speaker 6: And part of it is bring on nette debt down

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Speaker 6: and you continue on.

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Speaker 3: That program, Simon Bloy, thank you so much, the CEO

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Speaker 3: at Cecil. Nineteen minutes after six The Money Show with

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Speaker 3: Stephen on seven O two, seven O two in my

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Speaker 3: High Court today the start of a case brought by

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Speaker 3: a lawyer called Douglas Shaw. He's arguing that South African

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Speaker 3: banks have been repossessing homes when people can't pay their

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Speaker 3: debts and then selling the house only for the amount

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Speaker 3: of debt that is owed. In other words, if you

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Speaker 3: have a home worth a million rand, the amount of

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Speaker 3: debt owed is half a million rand, the bank would

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Speaker 3: sell the home for half a million rand, not the

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Speaker 3: full one million ruand get out from them.

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Speaker 6: Eva.

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Speaker 3: There's a consumer law attorney at Trudy Brookman attorney's hair

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Speaker 3: out A good afternoon, good evening to you. Do we

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Speaker 3: know how often this happens? I would presume in a

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Speaker 3: case like this people would bring examples.

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Speaker 8: Greasing Stephen and greeving to your listeners, thank you for

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Speaker 8: having me. Yes, I think there's just a distinction to

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Speaker 8: be draw in. Firstly, that this was action that that

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Speaker 8: at CAUTURE is trying to get certified is based on

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Speaker 8: matches that arose prior to the introduction of High Court

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Speaker 8: Rule forty six Capital Letter A, and also a lot

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Speaker 8: of those then prior to the promulgation of the National

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Speaker 8: Credit Act. But still even today, with all the protections

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Speaker 8: that the legislation offers by way of the National Credit

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Speaker 8: Act High Court Rules, it still does happened often that

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Speaker 8: homes are being sold in execution. The saving grace now

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Speaker 8: is that the legislature introduced the new rule in the

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Speaker 8: High Court rules you can only get immovable property declared

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Speaker 8: specially executable, in other words, get permission to sell it

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Speaker 8: at an auction by going through the High Court. And

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Speaker 8: then there's judicial oversights, and there's a less of fact

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Speaker 8: is that the judges consider that the matter is that

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Speaker 8: or the members of the class that that advocature represents,

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Speaker 8: as far as I could have ascertained, or members consumers

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Speaker 8: whose properties were sold prior to their being proper judicial

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Speaker 8: oversight in place. And I'm not saying the fact that

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Speaker 8: there's currently judicial oversight in place necessarily has changed the

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Speaker 8: situation dramatically, because properties are still sometimes sold for less

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Speaker 8: than what they are actually worth. But the judges now

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Speaker 8: take into consideration the value of the property, how much

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Speaker 8: oh the bank or the other means of satisfying the debts,

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Speaker 8: so selling the property is really considered as a last resort,

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Speaker 8: whereas in the past that wasn't really the case.

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Speaker 3: I still never understood Herode why a bank would want

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Speaker 3: to sell something for less than its full value unless

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Speaker 3: there's a sort of parallel agenda. Because even if Stephen

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Speaker 3: owes a bank half a million round, if Steven is

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Speaker 3: living in a house worth a million round, surely the

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Speaker 3: bank would like the million round and you could give

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Speaker 3: Stephen half half of it and keep the and you

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Speaker 3: keep the other half of your debt.

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Speaker 8: Yes, No, it actually does really boggle the mind. The

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Speaker 8: problem is and that's that's I think what what Advocate

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Speaker 8: Sure is focusing on, and our firm predominantly representing consumers

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Speaker 8: or waiting, and we're looking forward to hearing the arguments

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Speaker 8: and seeing what the judgment is going to be, because

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Speaker 8: anything that can change the landscape for consumers and our

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Speaker 8: view is a great thing. But in terms of the

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Speaker 8: mortgage and even ass you just fire down to install

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Speaker 8: themselves for vehicles undo the bank solves it's for they

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Speaker 8: don't really care because at the end of the day,

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Speaker 8: you're still end for the difference and eventually, now that

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Speaker 8: they've solved that property, it goes back into the market.

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Speaker 8: So there is an opportunity for either that bank themselves

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Speaker 8: or one of that banks to refinance another purchase of

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Speaker 8: that property way down the line potentially. So it might

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Speaker 8: just be a type of systemic abuse.

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Speaker 3: And I regard normally you can't be evicted from a

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Speaker 3: property unless you have alternative accommodation. If you own a

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Speaker 3: property someone rents from it, you can't always evict them

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Speaker 3: from their property unless there's other accommodation that's under the

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Speaker 3: prevention of a legal eviction act. Does that apply here

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Speaker 3: in any way? I already imagine many homeowners who try

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Speaker 3: and stay on as occupiers.

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Speaker 8: Yes, and I think that that happens more often than

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Speaker 8: we actually realize. The thing with the process now to

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Speaker 8: get the property, specially the clear especially executesable firstly the

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Speaker 8: bank after the judge's going to see is this the

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Speaker 8: consumer's primary residential property? And that then ties in with

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Speaker 8: the constitutional values, and that gicks a bunch of other

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Speaker 8: factors in to the state that needs be considered. But

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Speaker 8: alternative accommodation or the availability there or not, it's just

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Speaker 8: one of the facts it's also if you look at

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Speaker 8: the PIE Act, the Prevention of Illegal Evictions Act, then

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Speaker 8: that's just one of the factors that obviously boggles in

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Speaker 8: mind that if it's your property and the blank solves

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Speaker 8: it and then you have to be kicked out. But

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Speaker 8: unfortunately the law as expand does make provisions for that.

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Speaker 3: Do people in this position still have a few rights

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Speaker 3: that they can use. I mean, fights like this must

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Speaker 3: be hugely emotional, very difficult, and I would imagine most

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Speaker 3: people would only leave their home in a situation like

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Speaker 3: this after a struggle.

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Speaker 8: No, definitely. Look, I think it all both boils down

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Speaker 8: to what we always advise our clients. As soon as

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Speaker 8: you get into trouble and you see, I'm going to

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Speaker 8: have issues paying my bind this man I haven't paid

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Speaker 8: for two months, contact the explain your situation. Because there

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Speaker 8: are a lot of mechanisms in place, especially in terms

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Speaker 8: of the National Credit Act, which are they to protect consumers.

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Speaker 8: So the bank can't just immediately decide they want to

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Speaker 8: sell your property. The first step is they need to

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Speaker 8: tell you that you're in breach. They need to send

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Speaker 8: you notice in terms of Section one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 8: nine of the National Credit Act, and that notice, they

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Speaker 8: must give you an explanation of what you're right for

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Speaker 8: in terms of the National Credit Act, one of those

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Speaker 8: being that you have the right to apply for date review.

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Speaker 8: So there are ways of preventing it. And then also

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Speaker 8: our courts have recently taken a very dim view of

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Speaker 8: what most banks. It's a fabric process. The summons just

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Speaker 8: go out the debt collection department as their thing. They

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Speaker 8: don't want to properly engage with consumers. And a lot

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Speaker 8: of our courts and judges and I said, you can't

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Speaker 8: just see it as a box ticking exercise. You have

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Speaker 8: to meaningfully engage with a consumers and able to afford

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Speaker 8: their debt re payments. You can't just insist on ridiculous

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Speaker 8: amounts that they need to pay, failing which you will proceed.

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Speaker 8: You must take into consideration what can they pay. Is

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Speaker 8: there a possibility that there's a financial situation is going

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Speaker 8: to improve. It's not just a box sticking exercise. And

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Speaker 8: especially when it comes to declaring property, especially executable and

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Speaker 8: selling someone's fixed property on an auction, there are a

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Speaker 8: lot of safeguards that have been put in place now.

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Speaker 3: Shut out on matter. Thank you so much consumer lower

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Speaker 3: attorney at Truly Brookman Attorneys. The Money Show Sibilo is

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Speaker 3: the chief investment office of the old mutual Investment Group.

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Speaker 3: Sibernese or Good evening. Lots to talk about tonight, but

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Speaker 3: I think we need to talk about SPA. They were

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Speaker 3: down on Friday, news that the CEO, Angelo Swartz was leaving.

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Speaker 3: Today he explained himself, they released a trading update. They're

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Speaker 3: down significantly again.

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Speaker 9: Yes, yes, yes, gribny to your incrediate, to your listeners. Basically, yes,

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Speaker 9: so SPA lost the CEO, and obviously they released a

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Speaker 9: trading update. But actually we're going to take a bigger

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Speaker 9: picture of what's happened here because SPA used to be

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Speaker 9: the most one of the most stable and premium retailers

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Speaker 9: in the country, and then they went overseas similar to

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Speaker 9: many South African stories, and acquired some businesses in Europe

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Speaker 9: and that hasn't worked out and trying to unwind that

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Speaker 9: and come back to South Africa.

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Speaker 3: And they took their.

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Speaker 9: Eye also of South Africa and that actually has come

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Speaker 9: to bite them. So when we look at these particular results,

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Speaker 9: we can see I think they from SPA the whole group,

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Speaker 9: they're saying, hey, our revenues are going to be up

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Speaker 9: just over two percent, so that's not that much growth

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Speaker 9: for the first eighteen weeks of twenty twenty six. And

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Speaker 9: our margins are going to be down though because they

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Speaker 9: are we are in a low inflation environment in South

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Speaker 9: Africa and so therefore and volumes on there. People aren't shopping.

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Speaker 9: There's a lot of promotion and activity. But actually, Steple,

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Speaker 9: we've seen this in shop price results, We've seen this

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Speaker 9: in Pick and Pays trading update, and also now we're

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Speaker 9: seeing it in Spa and what's happening in the food

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Speaker 9: set and South Africa is what of the low inflation environment,

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Speaker 9: we are seeing quite a lot of competition. So from

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Speaker 9: the consumer perspective, the consumers are winning, but the retailers

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Speaker 9: it's almost a killer be killed environment and the strongest

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Speaker 9: ones we're seeing them gain share.

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Speaker 3: And we all know who they are. Cecil. Their headlining

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Speaker 3: is down over thirty percent today. Weak oil prices partly,

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Speaker 3: but I mean managing a company of that size and

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Speaker 3: scope at this time is not an easy thing.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, not at all.

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Speaker 9: Even where we'll start with CECIL, it's about expectations. So

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Speaker 9: over the last year, if you take the last months,

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Speaker 9: Cecil's share price is up sixty percent, sixty two percent

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Speaker 9: to be more exact, So why it doesn't lend context

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Speaker 9: for this result. So about a year and a bit ago,

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Speaker 9: the market was worried about Cecil's production. Actually they've struggled

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Speaker 9: with production in their several plants, and also the market

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Speaker 9: was worried about Sasol's balance sheets, about actually how stable

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Speaker 9: the debt was. The market was also then worried about

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Speaker 9: about the cash flow generation in terms of where the

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Speaker 9: company is, and actually said, but if you look at

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Speaker 9: it in that context, why is the share price up

403
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Speaker 9: sixty two percent? Because the markets recognize that actually, in

404
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Speaker 9: what management can control, management's done a great job if

405
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Speaker 9: you look at it. They've managed expenses extremely well. They

406
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Speaker 9: have managed production, they've managed to turn production around, and

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Speaker 9: we've seen Secunda, we've seen production going up there. And

408
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Speaker 9: actually even the balance sheets and liquidity, they've managed it

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Speaker 9: extremely well despite the uncontrollables of can call margins, of

410
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Speaker 9: oil price and obviously the rand. The rants are very

411
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Speaker 9: very big part. So we might be happy again as

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00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 9: consumers in saying the RAND is whatever around sixteen, so

413
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Speaker 9: that's good for us, it's good for the petrol pump,

414
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Speaker 9: but actually for a company like sus Or it is

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Speaker 9: not good. But despite that, actually for what management can control,

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Speaker 9: they've done a really really good job in stabilizing the

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Speaker 9: business and so now then it just depends on what

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Speaker 9: they can control, which are energy prices, currency and then

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Speaker 9: chemicals margins.

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Speaker 3: Sib So, thank you so much. Sibani mol Marlow is

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Speaker 3: the chief investment officer of the Old Mutual Investment.

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Speaker 10: What's up, Stephen on seven seven oh two one.

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Speaker 3: Seven, Well, I was asking you for the strangest thing

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Speaker 3: you've ever seen in the Council. Bill also responses tonight

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Speaker 3: to that conversation about banks allegedly being accused of selling

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Speaker 3: properties at below market value.

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Speaker 11: Hi, Steven, I'm listening to your discussion with the consumer Tenne.

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Speaker 11: What I know about foreclosure properties that more often than not,

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Speaker 11: if you get it on parking, you're going to spend

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Speaker 11: money elsewhere, so you're probably going to have to spend

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Speaker 11: renovating it to make it habitable more than than dot.

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Speaker 11: What I know is that ninety percent of them you

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Speaker 11: have to clear the municipal accountry with intersection of title.

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Speaker 6: You also have to go to clear the levy account.

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Speaker 11: So if you buy a five hundred thousand ran property

436
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Speaker 11: four hundred thousand at a sheriff, you're probably going to

437
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Speaker 11: spend like four hundred thousand trying to clear.

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Speaker 6: Most of those costs.

439
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Speaker 11: So you end up spending a bargain on the Pitchers prize,

440
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 11: but the cost go elsewhere.

441
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 6: The hare's the reason.

442
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 11: Why most banks are trying to get rid of such properties,

443
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 11: because it becomes impossible to sell them on the open market.

444
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 6: It's about more mol.

445
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 3: Band so fang, thank you. That's very I hadn't thought

446
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 3: of that, but that's a very interesting aspect to add

447
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 3: to all of this. I mean, I do think usually

448
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 3: there's often it's it's very rare in life that you

449
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 3: get a real bargain where you get something for far

450
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 3: below the value at that you were expecting to pay,

451
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 3: and that it works out. So often there's something else, hunk,

452
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 3: thank you. I got a call from SARS today. I'm

453
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 3: a provisional tax payer, which means, like many people, I

454
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 3: make a payment in I make a sort of payment.

455
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,679
Speaker 3: I paid some payment in Fibriar in another payment in August.

456
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 3: I got a call from a call from SARS about

457
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 3: an hour and a half ago reminding me very polite,

458
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: reminding me to pay what I know I own. I've

459
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 3: got it in my diary to do it before the

460
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: end of the month. And I was just intrigued by

461
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 3: several things. I mean, the first was, I don't think

462
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 3: that's happened before. Now, look, I don't always answer my phone.

463
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 3: I'm sure you don't, either of it's from landlines. Secondly,

464
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 3: if it had been so many other institutions in government

465
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 3: saying pay us what you owe, would probably not have

466
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 3: been very polite in response. I'm'm not going to pick

467
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 3: anything but my counsel, whereas SARS, I was like, oh,

468
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 3: thanks for the reminder. And I am trying to understand

469
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 3: myself why I was so polite to this government institution

470
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 3: that was politely reminding me to pay what I need

471
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 3: to pay. And then of course there was you know,

472
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 3: cynical Stephen. Is there a reason that they're trying to

473
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 3: get the money in and trying to make sure that

474
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,239
Speaker 3: I don't forget, because obviously if I do forget, they

475
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 3: get to charge me interest, so it's not always in

476
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 3: their longer term interest for me to pay up. I mean,

477
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 3: I realized that maybe they just want to get the

478
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 3: money in either way, let me know if the same

479
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 3: things happened to you. Did you get a phone call

480
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 3: from SARS in the last week or so saying please

481
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: don't forget to make your provisional tax payment? Those seven

482
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 3: two seven two one seven twenty minutes to seven.

483
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 4: The Honey Show with Stephen krutis live on ninety two

484
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 4: point seven and one six f them streaming on the

485
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 4: Prime Media Plus.

486
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: Now and DStv channel eight five six.

487
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 3: Call it to seven the time. Well, you'll have heard,

488
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 3: of course about the business rescue practitioners at Tom Guartier.

489
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 3: Let's saying they now need to apply for the provisional

490
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 3: liquidation of the company, partly because of a potential deal

491
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 3: with the consortium. Thing it's led by Robert Gomde has

492
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 3: fallen apart. The dt SEE has said it'll oppose that

493
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 3: it's worried thousands of people will lose their jobs. There's

494
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 3: another group which is opposing it as well. Over the

495
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 3: weekend a report that frankly raised my eyebrows by the

496
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 3: Amabunghani Center for Investigative Journalism, in which they suggest this

497
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 3: is all the result of a series of deliberate decisions.

498
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: Sam Soul is a man managing partner of the Amabungani

499
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 3: Center for Investigative Journalism. Sam Good evening, Good to chat again.

500
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 3: You make a series of claims here. Why do you

501
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 3: believe this decision to take Tom guard Hewlett into provisional

502
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 3: liquidation seems to almost be a deliberate strategy involving I

503
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 3: think you call it a debt bomb.

504
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 7: Yes, well, look that the debt bomb is a fact.

505
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 7: What happened is there was a collection of banks led

506
00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 7: by Standard Bank, known as the Lender Group, who had

507
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 7: had lent Tongua Tulet about twelve billion Rand, and.

508
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 12: The Tonguat Tulit made.

509
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 7: A proposal to to repay them on a restructed basis

510
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 7: by selling of some of their offshore assets. The banks

511
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 7: essentially refused to do that and insisted that Tonguatulic go

512
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 7: into business rescue. And then what they did is, instead

513
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 7: of allowing the business rescue practitioners to see if there

514
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 7: was a strategic equity partner and and you know see

515
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 7: who could bid the most to to kind of contribute

516
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 7: to the company, the banks went into the side deal

517
00:27:53,359 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 7: with Gourmet's Vision Consortium and sold him their debt, but

518
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 7: it didn't transfer immediately.

519
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 3: That was in.

520
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 7: At the beginning of twenty twenty four. He only paid

521
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 7: in May to twenty twenty five, and he only paid

522
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 7: I think about three point two billion rand for that

523
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 7: twelve billion debt and mainly didn't put his own money in.

524
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 7: It was also money from third part parties. But so

525
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 7: he took over the debt and then essentially used the

526
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 7: banks walked away. And now he has used that debt

527
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 7: which he paid three points three billion four which is

528
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 7: on paper worth eleven point seven billion now to put

529
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 7: a series of demands to how the company should be

530
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 7: transferred to the Vision Division Group, and most of those

531
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 7: demands were directed at the Industrial Development Corporation, which had

532
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 7: been stepped in to provide emergency funding during the business

533
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 7: rescue process so that the whole company didn't didn't collapse. Eventually,

534
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 7: the the i d C, when when there were demands

535
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 7: that they put another six hundred million round in, they

536
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 7: said no, well, look we'll put in two hundred that

537
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 7: the Vision possible two hundred and later they amended to say,

538
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 7: well at least the Vision has to give up security

539
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 7: for this twelve billion in debt, so that that the

540
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 7: I d C can be be covered vision refused to

541
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 7: do even that and and basically then have called in

542
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 7: their debt. They've they've submitted a you know, a bill

543
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 7: to Tongue out Eulett for forty eleven point seven billion,

544
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 7: and that left the biness rescue practitioners with no choice

545
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 7: but to apply for liquidation, although again there are serious

546
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 7: questions to be asked about the business rescue process because

547
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 7: you know, the business rescue practitioners also really were a

548
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 7: betting this effort to put pressure on the I d

549
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 7: C and or the government essentially to to change the

550
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 7: terms of the business rescue and pay most of the bill.

551
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: Okay, So if the if the if basically Tom guard

552
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 3: Hulit is forced into provisional liquidation in this way, what

553
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 3: does Gumede get if he's tried to create this or

554
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 3: if someone has made this happen, what do they get

555
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 3: for that? Do they get all of the assets or

556
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: the assets worth more than that? Yes?

557
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 7: Yes, so, at least in terms of what GoMedia and

558
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 7: the banks have said. Essentially, the entire company and all

559
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 7: its offshore assets are incumber it and and that's certainly

560
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 7: worth more than the three point two billion that uh,

561
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 7: the Vision Group paid. But but of course you know

562
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 7: that's messy and he doesn't want that. He wants he

563
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 7: wants government to blink and agree to to because obviously

564
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 7: this is a huge employer in rural case that end. Uh,

565
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 7: there's there's a threat of you know, disruption, riots, unemployment,

566
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 7: break breakdown in the province.

567
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 12: And I think there's a deliberate effort.

568
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 7: To to get government to blink and and essentially hand

569
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 7: you know, on away on on on a plate with

570
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 7: with the government or the tax payer paying most of

571
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 7: of the bill. And you know that's what's going going

572
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 7: to be. You know, if if, if, if there's not

573
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 7: a deal before Friday, we're going to see the arguments

574
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 7: about that in court.

575
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 3: On Friday presumably. I mean, I don't know what a

576
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 3: judge would do in this case. But you've got a

577
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: company that's worth a certain amount of money. You've got

578
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 3: someone who owns twelve billion rounds worth of debt but

579
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 3: only paid three point two billion round for it and

580
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 3: could suddenly make a huge amount of money literally for

581
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 3: playing a very clever game, and government would have to

582
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 3: pay some of the bill. I mean, can I judge

583
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: stop all of that.

584
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 12: Look, I think the judge can certainly ask difficult questions

585
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 12: because you know, there are questions.

586
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 7: About where the vision misrepresented its position at the time

587
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 7: when the vote on the business rescue happened. There are

588
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 7: questions about whether the security it claims to have is valid,

589
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 7: whether in fact it is actually enforceable, because you can't

590
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 7: encumber more or less an entire company without consolidating those

591
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 7: you know, those those debts or those potential liability at

592
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 7: a central level at the tongue that limit limited level

593
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 7: and kind of letting shareholders know as far as we

594
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 7: can tell that that was that was that was never done.

595
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 7: So there are there are some issues that that that

596
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 7: need to be explored here. And I think this also

597
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 7: goes to the way in which you know, both business

598
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 7: rescue and liquidation happen in this in this country. I

599
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 7: think there's much too much that happens without judicial supervision,

600
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 7: without a kind of proper kind of transparency about who's

601
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 7: doing what, and there's an enormous destruction of value that happens.

602
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 7: And obviously some people walk walk awayever bitch. But for

603
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 7: you know employees, these shareholders, you know, other stakeholders, this

604
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 7: is often a very problematic process and I think this again,

605
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 7: this case can can highlight some of some of the

606
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 7: loopholes flaws.

607
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 3: Sam Soul, thank you so much, Managing partner of the

608
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 3: Amabungani Center for Investigative Journalism.

609
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 13: The Money Show with Stephen Krutez is brought to you

610
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 13: by Absolute Corporate and Investment Banking Cloud, sponsor of the

611
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 13: LMA ICMA Loan End Capital Markets Africa Summit twenty twenty six.

612
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 10: Absolut register their FSP.

613
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 3: Five minutes to seven the time. I don't know how

614
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: much time you spend going through your municipal bills. I

615
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 3: know in many parts of the country people pay their

616
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 3: council bill and you think, well, I don't really get

617
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 3: any value for this In Cape Town. Of course, Cape

618
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 3: Town claims to be delivering better services than other councils,

619
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 3: but residents have been complaining for some time that their

620
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 3: bills have skyrocketed for reasons they have no control over.

621
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 3: Rebecca Davis is a senior journalist at The Daily America

622
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 3: Colleague of Mind there She's been about this over the weekend. Rebecca,

623
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 3: good evening. When you go through the bowls of people

624
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 3: living in Cape Town, what's pushing these bills up so strongly.

625
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 14: The major factor, I would say, Steven, is the explosion

626
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 14: in Cape Town property values. And look, I know that

627
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 14: this is the definition of a double edged sword, right,

628
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 14: and I bet there are Joe Berg residents listening to

629
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 14: this just nashing their teeth. What a good problem to have,

630
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 14: that your property is worth so much. But the issue

631
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 14: is really that the values of the property that we

632
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 14: looked at had increased over the past ten years by

633
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 14: about one hundred and thirty one percent. The property rates

634
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 14: are calculated via the municipal valuations, and those rates have

635
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,399
Speaker 14: risen even higher than the values have. But it's not

636
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 14: just the rates that are linked to property value. The

637
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 14: City of Cape Town now links a whole raft of

638
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 14: other tariffs to property value, and these include the cleaning

639
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 14: levee for instance, fixed water charges, sewerage charges, and there's

640
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 14: also improvement district levees. So when valuations rise, it's not

641
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 14: just the rates that increase, it's all these line items.

642
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 3: So someone could have been living in the house for

643
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: thirty years, the value rises, their income does not, and

644
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 3: they suddenly have to pay a lot more with no

645
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 3: extra money for them.

646
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 14: That's exactly the issue, and I think people sometimes have

647
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 14: very little empathy because what they're imagining is some billionaire

648
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 14: living in Dishop's Court on some gigantic property who now

649
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 14: is faced with very high municipal bills. But what we've

650
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 14: found out is that there's, you know, a fairly large

651
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 14: portion of the middle class in South Africa, in Cape

652
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 14: Town who are really being squeezed by this. It is,

653
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 14: as you say, it's people who, for instance, inherited a

654
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 14: house thirty years ago that was valued very little and

655
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 14: are now living on a fixed income with rates bills

656
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 14: that are just exploding. It's people also who perhaps just

657
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 14: made a very good investment in a suburb or area

658
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 14: that was perhaps a bit rough around their edges a

659
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 14: few decades ago, which has since considerably gentrified, and as

660
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 14: a results, they're sitting on an asset of tremendous value,

661
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 14: but with such high monthly bills that they can't necessarily

662
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 14: afford to stay there. And the responses will often well,

663
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 14: just sell, just sell and buy somewhere else. But it

664
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 14: isn't that easy, as it's steven, because chances are you're

665
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,399
Speaker 14: not going to be able to buy in the same

666
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 14: area you've made your family home. For so long you're

667
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 14: not going to be able to buy anything comparable necessarily

668
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 14: because prices everywhere have gone up and so chances are

669
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 14: you going to be pushed further and further out in

670
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 14: order to find more affordable ways of living.

671
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, or move back to joe Burgh the city, the

672
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 3: city itself. What's it doing with all the extra money?

673
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 3: Which is really going to is this improving service delivery?

674
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 3: Because it's one thing to pay a bit more because

675
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 3: you live in an area that's done well and your

676
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 3: your rubbish is surely picked up four times a week

677
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 3: or something? Is there is there money going there?

678
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 14: I think the issue is not where the Cape Tun

679
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 14: delivers good services to the middle class. I think on

680
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 14: balance most people would say yes, it's whether the ordinary

681
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 14: middle class residents can afford the way those services are

682
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 14: now funded. And the same of Cape Tun does more,

683
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 14: I think than any other metro in the country to

684
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 14: help poor people, to help indigen people. There are significant

685
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 14: rebates and the idea behind these rates and tariff is

686
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 14: that the more affluent should cross subsidize poorer cape Tonians,

687
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 14: which is an idea I think many of us have

688
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 14: no problem with. It, is just that the way in

689
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 14: which these increases have been applied has outstripped salary raisers

690
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 14: so much over the past decade, by our analysis, sometimes

691
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 14: four or five times as much as salary increases, and

692
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 14: also as much as that that you're left wondering how

693
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 14: this is a sustainable situation if you aren't someone who

694
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 14: is poor enough basically sub to benefit from the very

695
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 14: significant rebates that are available from the city.

696
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 3: On it also exist ten years ago, that's suddenly exists now.

697
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 14: Well, one of them of the city Winde Keening levy,

698
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 14: which was brought in last year. But the city says

699
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 14: it isn't actually a new terriff, it's just one that

700
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 14: was previously embedded in other tariffs. It's quite hard to

701
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 14: calculate whether this is accurate or not, because if it

702
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,439
Speaker 14: was bundled together in the electricity price, for instance, it's

703
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 14: hard to detect that. They say effectively, there aren't really

704
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 14: any new charges. But what is new and that is

705
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 14: not disputed, is that they are now based on property value,

706
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 14: and that is a change that only came in in

707
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 14: the twenty fifteen twenty sixteen financial year.

708
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 3: Rebecca Davis, thank you so much, Senior journalist at Daily Maverick.

709
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:38,479
Speaker 3: Really appreciate the time.

710
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: It's seven o'clock and now the Money Show we even

711
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: on seven o two.

712
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 3: Next walk little The Money Show with Stephen Crusis is

713
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 3: brought to you by Absente Corporate and Investment Banking, proud

714
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: sponsor of the LMA ICMA Loan and Capital Markets Africa

715
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 3: Summer twenty twenty six. Absent is a registered FSA. Eight

716
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 3: minutes after seven plenty to come over the next little while,

717
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 3: we'll talk about Ivy League universities in the US, how

718
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 3: to get your child into one of them in just

719
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 3: a moment. Your business book tonight, it's called Feeding Unicorns,

720
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 3: How Good Leaders Make Great Teams. Jenny and Campbell is

721
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 3: the author of the book. It seems, and I mean,

722
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: I know there are a lot of leadership books out there,

723
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 3: but it seems to be a slightly different approach to

724
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 3: the usual things that we see. Talks more about humanity

725
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 3: and kindness. There is I think a chapter about why

726
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 3: it's important to pay well. We might focus a little

727
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,360
Speaker 3: bit on that. Also. From seven to thirty, plessermer sec Or,

728
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 3: Managing director at PMA Incorporated, an attorney about the entertainment

729
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 3: law world. You hear the criminal lawyers, the commercial lawyers.

730
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 3: Everyone wants to be one of them. But actually in

731
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 3: entertainment law, the issues that come up, and I think

732
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 3: it might be we'll ask the lesser an area of

733
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 3: law which is changing quite quickly. Looking forward to that conversation,

734
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 3: Looking forward to your comments. You have heard the conversation

735
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 3: with Rebecca Davis about the bills in the city of

736
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 3: Cape Town. Strangest thing you've ever seen on a council bill.

737
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 3: Please on O seven two seven oh two one seven

738
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 3: oh two. Also, what happens you have any idea of

739
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 3: you had a phone call from SARS reminding you to

740
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 3: make your provisional tax payment? Am I the only ones

741
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 3: still quite surprised to have got that phone call? Today

742
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 3: nine minutes after seven seven oh two with Stephen Wurtis.

743
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: Email him on Stephen at seven oh two dot co dotz.

744
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 3: There's a quote that is attributed to the former US

745
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 3: President Joe Biden. He was talking about his own country.

746
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: He was talking, as I understand it, to sort of

747
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 3: close friends and family, and he said, the river of

748
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 3: power in this country flows through the Ivy League. The

749
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 3: point he was making was that if a young American

750
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 3: is able to get into the top few universities in

751
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 3: the United States, they probably won't have to work quite

752
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 3: as hard in later life because of their networks and

753
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 3: the power of what's called the Ivy League system I

754
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 3: League systems the top universities in the United States. This

755
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 3: is a conversation and a comment about networks, but it's

756
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 3: also about getting a start in a career. Turns out

757
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 3: that there are now people in South Africa who are

758
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 3: helping young South Africans get into these institutions. I have

759
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 3: to say, for me, can't imagine the possibility of something

760
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 3: like that. Brad Littila Campbell is the country manager at

761
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 3: Crimson Education A Brad, good evening. Thanks so much for

762
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 3: coming in. How difficult is it for a young South

763
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 3: African someone finishing school now to get an institution like

764
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 3: Yale or Harvard.

765
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 15: Other Stephen, thanks for having me look for anyone coming

766
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 15: from anywhere around the world. It's tough to get into

767
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 15: those universities. They are roundly recognized, as you said, as

768
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 15: the top most elite, prestigious institutions in the world, and

769
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 15: their acceptance rates are generally below five four percent these

770
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 15: days and getting more competitive every year. So you're looking

771
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 15: at students who are really achieving not only in the classroom,

772
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 15: but probably need to have some other feathers in their

773
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 15: cap as well outside the classroom to be able to

774
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 15: get into those top schools.

775
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 3: So you're not looking at six distinctions, you're looking at

776
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 3: sort of nine or ten.

777
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 15: I think that's actually quite an interesting point that you

778
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 15: brought that up immediately. I think for South Africans, one

779
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 15: of the big kind of shifts in mindset that I

780
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 15: have to go through with with families that we talk

781
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 15: to and with students I work with is it's actually

782
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 15: not necessarily the number of a's that you get, but

783
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 15: it does actually matter for American universities what marks you're getting.

784
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 15: So we're seeing kids getting into these top schools, but

785
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 15: their averages are nineteen ninety two, ninety five percent as

786
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 15: opposed to getting seven, eight, nine, ten a's that are

787
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 15: floating around the eighty to eighty five percent range. And

788
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 15: it's actually kind of they they're looking for the top

789
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 15: of the top of the top, not necessarily that bread

790
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 15: of academic the rounding of your academic portfolio at school and.

791
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 3: The sort of other things that you would have had

792
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 3: to have done. I mean, I presume it's more than

793
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:54,760
Speaker 3: just playing good rugby.

794
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 15: Yes, well I can just be playing good rugby, right,

795
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 15: But what they're looking for ultimately is and the analogy

796
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 15: users if you were starting a university and you wanted

797
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 15: to attract the best fifteen hundred and sixteen hundred kids

798
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 15: a year to a university, right, you'd probably get the

799
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 15: best academic applicants every single year. So then what makes

800
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 15: these other kids stand out?

801
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 10: Right?

802
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 15: So we're looking at and this is a kind of

803
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 15: across the board. If you're looking at at Ivy League schools,

804
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,399
Speaker 15: whether it's you know the ones that I've come most famous, Harvard, Yale,

805
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 15: Princeton to Columbia, Dartmouth, Cornell, Brown, they're looking for something

806
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,240
Speaker 15: else excellent, whether that's your leadership ability.

807
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 10: So we see a lot of kind of prefects or

808
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 10: school leaders go or at.

809
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 15: Sport this year we've seen a lot of a lot

810
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 15: of athletes get offers as well to these IVY League schools.

811
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 15: Or perhaps you're really really good at a specific academic subject.

812
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 15: The schools like to see people who are the best

813
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 15: at something.

814
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 7: Right.

815
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 15: It's difficult to be the best at academics, and it's

816
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 15: difficult to prove that. But you can be one of

817
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 15: the best mathematicians by going to the Mathslimpiad and doing

818
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 15: really well in South Africa Matthilampion and going to the IMO.

819
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 15: You could be a fantastic kind of engineering student by

820
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 15: winning one of those global competitions as well, And that's

821
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 15: ultimately what they're looking for and how you prove yourself

822
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 15: outside of the classroom.

823
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 3: As well, I would imagine. I mean, I'm kind of

824
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 3: I'm trying to think in my head of the selection

825
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 3: process and who in the States is making these decisions,

826
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 3: because they're making decisions on cvs from around the world,

827
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 3: and there'll be many from the top of my head, China, Europe, Japan,

828
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 3: and South Africa. How do they assess South Africans? I mean,

829
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 3: our system is similar but also different to everyone else's.

830
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 15: Yeah, so that's probably there's probably a distinction then to

831
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 15: draw between kind of let's say, the top thirty or

832
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 15: forty US universities and colleges and the rest. So if

833
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 15: you're looking at these top thirty or forty colleges, they

834
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 15: will have people in the room who are ultimately it's

835
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 15: a committee, right, So it's a committee at each university

836
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 15: in various shapes and forms, and they will have people

837
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 15: on the committee that are experts in different areas, right,

838
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 15: so they will be able to tell who is a

839
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 15: truly stand out South African or you know, Zimbabwe or

840
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 15: Zambian candidate, and who is a truly stand out Brazilian

841
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 15: or Canadian or Chinese candidate. And so there are ultimately

842
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 15: not necessarily comparing the students against each other from around

843
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 15: the world, but necessarily within your pool, you're being pulled

844
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 15: out and you need to be one of the most attractive,

845
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 15: kind of excellent students within your own applicant pool.

846
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 3: I mean, there all sorts of things that happen in

847
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 3: the year. So Felicity Huffman from Desperate Housewives, her husband

848
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 3: is I forget his name now, but he's also an actor.

849
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 3: I mean she went to jail, I mean just for

850
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks, basically because she was involved in

851
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 3: paying a bribe to get her child into one of

852
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 3: these colleges. And I'm kind of thinking to myself, if

853
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 3: a star of Desperate Housewives had to resort to that,

854
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 3: what chances are there then for a South African to

855
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 3: do it.

856
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 15: Yeah, Look, I think there's probably a thought to be

857
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 15: had here, and there's probably a broader comment about tertiary

858
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 15: education in South Africa as well, is that the top schools,

859
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 15: the ones that you mentioned that the Ivy League and

860
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 15: some of the other kind of top twenty, top thirty schools,

861
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 15: there's not necessarily that they are choosing the students that

862
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 15: they want. There's no minimum standard, which we have understood

863
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 15: here as the way to get into university for a

864
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 15: very long time. There isn't necessarily a minimum standard. They're

865
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 15: taking the very very best, and ultimately in the States,

866
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 15: over the last thirty years, let's say, there's been a

867
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 15: drastic increase in competition for a lot of those top schools.

868
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 15: A great example of this is NYU and NYU. You know,

869
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 15: twenty fifteen years ago, NYU was accepting students at twenty

870
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 15: to thirty percent of its applicant pool. At the moment

871
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 15: it's at six percent, right, and that's basically entirely off

872
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 15: of an increase in applications. And so that pressure to

873
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 15: get those students in is what those what it was

874
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 15: called operating varsity blues. That was what that was based around.

875
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 15: Is they felt that they needed to give their children

876
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 15: that advantage and so they put their own finger on

877
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 15: the scales to try and you know, give their students

878
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 15: with children that leg up that they thought they needed

879
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 15: to get into those schools.

880
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 10: But the flip side of this is you don't need need.

881
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 15: To go to UCLA or USC or Stanford to get

882
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 15: a fantastic education. You know, you can go to a

883
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 15: school that maybe is more local or kind of is

884
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 15: a little bit less stringent and its acceptance policies that

885
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 15: will allow you to get the education that you want

886
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 15: and catapulture into a good career.

887
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,799
Speaker 3: You also have to pay for this, yes, and I

888
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 3: mean you have to pay for it dollarcent. Even if

889
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 3: you've got a whole scholarship, there's still a lot to

890
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 3: pay for. This is a strange question, but are the

891
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 3: colleges looking for money? If you can pay, does that

892
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 3: make it easier?

893
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 15: It does a In short, there are some schools that

894
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 15: are called that have this policy called needs blind ultimately,

895
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 15: which means that when you apply, they don't take into

896
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,240
Speaker 15: account how much you can afford to pay towards tuition.

897
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 15: But most of the colleges and universities in the US

898
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 15: are needs aware for international students and so being able

899
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 15: to pay the tuition to be able to front at

900
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 15: least some of it, and if not all of it

901
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 15: does ultimately give you a leg up because you're not

902
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 15: compete with the people who need aid. And you know,

903
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 15: dollars are expence of everyone. It's not just South Africans, right,

904
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 15: So people around the world are who are trying to

905
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 15: get in there.

906
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 10: They're also aiming for that same aid as you are.

907
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 15: So the ability to pay is ultimately what what can

908
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 15: shift the balance in your favor.

909
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 3: I've been trying to work out what's going to happen

910
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 3: in this market. It's impossible, but so I can imagine

911
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 3: the Trump administration saying no South Africans, in fact, no

912
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 3: one from Africa can come in and study, which would

913
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 3: be a major problem for US, and I imagine for

914
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 3: your business model. I could also imagine him saying something

915
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 3: completely different, which is that no one from China can come,

916
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 3: or the Chinese government actually saying no one can go,

917
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 3: which suddenly would open a whole lot of spaces for us.

918
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 3: Do you have any idea of what's likely to happen

919
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 3: if you do trade on the stock exchange?

920
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 15: So, I mean what we've seen already in the last

921
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 15: year and in the last six months is that he's

922
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 15: instituted partial travel bands on some African countries, including Zimbabwe

923
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 15: and Nigeria, which are traditionally big senders of students to

924
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 15: the UA. Yes, and ultimately what that means probably for

925
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 15: this cycle, is that some of those students will not

926
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 15: be able to go. Included in those partial travel bands

927
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 15: is student visas, so you won't be able to get one,

928
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 15: and that probably does open up some space for South

929
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 15: African students. I mean when I was there, when I

930
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 15: was studying in the States, there were five students from

931
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 15: South Africa. Yeah, at my college, right, so there were

932
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 15: five students a year and they were in the year

933
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 15: ahead of me there were none, and the years behind

934
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 15: me there were five, and year after that they were filling. Ultimately,

935
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 15: kind of a soft quota probably, and that can change

936
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 15: and shift over time anyway. But if they now are

937
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 15: taking a Southern African quota, the absence of, for instance,

938
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 15: Zimbabwean students could really help South African students in terms

939
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 15: of the competitiveness.

940
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,919
Speaker 3: Brad, thank you very much indeed for coming in Brad

941
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 3: Littila Campbell as the country manager at Crimson Education.

942
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: The Money Show Business Books.

943
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 3: Twenty one minutes after seven. You will probably know this

944
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 3: about me that I'm pretty cynical about all of the

945
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 3: leadership books that seemed to take over half the airport

946
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 3: at times, frankly, but there is something that I think

947
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 3: does seem to be slightly different in this one. It's

948
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 3: called Feeding the Unicorns, How Good Leaders Make Great Teams.

949
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 3: It's by Jenny Anne Campbell, and Jenny Ane Campbell is

950
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,479
Speaker 3: sitting in front of me now, Jenny Anne, good evening,

951
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for coming in. I know selling the

952
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 3: book is half the work. This, I suppose a way

953
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 3: to describe it is about leadership for leaders who care.

954
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 3: What's different about what you're suggesting. There's a humanity that

955
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 3: you're proposing.

956
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 16: Well, I think in order to explain that, I need

957
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 16: to take a step back and kind of explain its intent.

958
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 16: I think throughout my leadership journey, I've done so much

959
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 16: research and what comes up as top leader.

960
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 2: I'm strong, successful.

961
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 16: And there wasn't anything that really aligned to what my

962
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 16: ethics were in business. And that is good leadership something

963
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 16: that you can do every single day, rather than this

964
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 16: massive goal there can only be one best. But if

965
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 16: you have this goal to every single day be doing

966
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 16: good work. And the book came out of the need

967
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 16: to see leaders talking about how being good in business

968
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 16: can be good for your business.

969
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a sort of environment of hustling, you know,

970
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 3: you want to everyone's kind of on the make, and

971
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 3: I understand why you're suggesting that that actually there's a

972
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 3: different way to do leadership in that environment.

973
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 16: There's a different way, and I've lived it. And the

974
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 16: reason why I wrote this book is that I fell

975
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 16: into business. I was a creative by trade, and I

976
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 16: fell into growing a business organically, and I found that

977
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 16: I never felt like I deserved a space at any table.

978
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 16: There were all these business books that intimidated me. And

979
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 16: I wrote this book for the people who feel like that.

980
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 16: And I wrote it because I know that by leading

981
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 16: teams with good intentions and empathy and understanding of where

982
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 16: your employees are in their space, not where you think

983
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 16: they should be, it really leads to more retention, staff retention,

984
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:02,360
Speaker 16: happier employees, more production of employees, and ultimately increases your

985
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 16: bottom line.

986
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 3: I have a friend who says, instead of writing a

987
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 3: contract with the start of every contract with a mate

988
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,479
Speaker 3: about a car or something, he just wants to write

989
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 3: be lacquer in other words, be a good person. Do

990
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 3: you think that that actually works for leadership, because sometimes

991
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 3: as a leader you have to make tough calls.

992
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: I like in its apparenting.

993
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 16: You know, being a good person doesn't mean always being liked.

994
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:25,960
Speaker 6: Being a good.

995
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 16: Person means that you are doing what is right for

996
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 16: everybody in the room. And I often say that that

997
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 16: doesn't mean that everyone's going to win all the time.

998
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 16: If you look at a business, sometimes your client's going

999
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 16: to win and your staff are going to suffer through

1000
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 16: doing all nights, and you're going to suffer because you're

1001
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 16: not making what you wanted to make. There are going

1002
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 16: to be times where your staff are going to win

1003
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 16: because you're going to push back on a client and

1004
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 16: you're going to lose because you're not making what.

1005
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 2: You wanted to make because you've said no to a job.

1006
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 16: So being good is not always being liked. It's making

1007
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 16: the hard decisions that are ethical and ultimately what's going

1008
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 16: to help people grow.

1009
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 3: There's a a you talk about unicorns, and these are

1010
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 3: people who are very good at what they do and

1011
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 3: when they're part of a team, they lift the entire team.

1012
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 3: I mean sort of could be lazy and reach for

1013
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 3: a Rugby World Cup, example, but I won't. Is there

1014
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 3: something different about how these people should be treated. You

1015
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 3: need to look after them a little bit.

1016
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 7: You know.

1017
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 16: I feel like any of us wh've worked in any

1018
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 16: business that sat in an interview process where the expectation

1019
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 16: of what your delivery should be far out weighs what

1020
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 16: your job description is. And I think that's where the

1021
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 16: idea of unicorns comes into play, where nowadays you need

1022
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 16: to be a generalist in many ways, and it's no

1023
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,839
Speaker 16: longer you know, jack of all trade, master of none.

1024
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 16: They really want you to be able to serve us

1025
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 16: a far greater need. But we don't look after those

1026
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 16: unicorns in the same way. We don't feed them in

1027
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 16: their specific needs so that they can grow and help

1028
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 16: our business.

1029
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 2: So it's a really one side of trade that.

1030
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's no incentive for them to actually.

1031
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 2: Keep going exactly and then burn out.

1032
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a chapter in your book. I was quite

1033
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 3: excited to read the chapter name the payoff of paying Well,

1034
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 3: what is the payoff?

1035
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 16: Money talks? You know, it's a thing that people don't

1036
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,399
Speaker 16: want to talk about. And I have always made sure

1037
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 16: that even in small business, you pay well. You make

1038
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 16: sure that you're paying a market related salary, even if

1039
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 16: it comes to freelancers or perman lancers. I have had

1040
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 16: a situation once where we worked so well on efficiencies

1041
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 16: that our hours were reduced on a certain job, and

1042
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 16: we had a specific freelancer who relied on that money

1043
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 16: every year. And I phoned her and said, I know

1044
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 16: you've spent less hours, and I know that ultimately you

1045
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:42,479
Speaker 16: should be billing less, but you know what, it's about

1046
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 16: the value that you bring, So I'm going to give

1047
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 16: you the same amount of money. And I think it's

1048
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 16: about being proactive in how you care for employees. There

1049
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 16: is a definite payoff on paying well proactively, not waiting

1050
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 16: for people to come to you, and saying what they

1051
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 16: believe they are worth. Seeing the value in an employee,

1052
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 16: regardless of age, regardless of the experience and pain. Then

1053
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 16: based on that value.

1054
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 3: I suppose you also sleep better at night knowing that

1055
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,720
Speaker 3: your unicorn isn't about to be poached by someone else.

1056
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,399
Speaker 3: It removes that vulnerability. If they go when they're being

1057
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 3: well paid well, it's probably because of you the leader.

1058
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 16: And I think the goal is not for people to

1059
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 16: stay with you forever. It's for them to believe in

1060
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 16: better workplaces because of you, and for them to grow,

1061
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 16: and for them to help your business grow, and then

1062
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 16: you know, life will change and they'll move on.

1063
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 3: The world goes through different phases. There was a time

1064
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 3: when I thought businesses were going to become a lot

1065
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 3: more caring, and to an extent they are. Sometimes I

1066
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 3: think the world at the moment is going through quite

1067
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 3: a hard phase, partly and to an extent, global sort

1068
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 3: of culture if you plugged into those networks, and I

1069
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 3: think outside a from the business community, by and large

1070
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 3: years is kind of set by the uit. Do you

1071
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 3: see that people are adopting more of a kinder approach?

1072
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 3: I mean, do you know if that's likely to happen?

1073
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 3: It does, as I say, go back and forth. But

1074
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 3: there are times when I think, actually, business will get

1075
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 3: a little easier, and then there are times when I think, no,

1076
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 3: it's getting tougher again.

1077
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 16: To be honest, I think it's the younger generations who

1078
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 16: have kind of forced the older generation's hand. So is

1079
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 16: it altruistic in its kindness? Potentially not. But it has

1080
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 16: been changing and I think that I have learned so

1081
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 16: much from the younger generations in terms of how to

1082
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 16: create your own boundaries. And I think those boundaries coming

1083
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 16: into the workforce have really forced businesses to reevaluate how

1084
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 16: they are doing things just because of how they were

1085
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 16: done in the past.

1086
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean I sometimes look at the sort

1087
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 3: of generational arguments that you see, and I mean they

1088
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 3: never expressed directly right. No old person goes to a

1089
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 3: young person says you're soft, and no younger person says

1090
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 3: to an older person you're unreasonable. There was a time

1091
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 3: I think when people expected, well, there are many more

1092
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 3: women leaders and therefore leadership will change. And I don't

1093
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 3: know if we've necessarily seen that be different from person

1094
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 3: to person. You suspect then over time a generational leadership

1095
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 3: shift will occur.

1096
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 2: I do suspect that.

1097
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 16: And you know, South Africa's small business workforce is both

1098
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 16: by women and we are females strong. And my voice

1099
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 16: is for those women doing good work in business and

1100
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 16: we actually run well. I run a series of events

1101
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 16: where it's changed at an exponential level. Getting those women

1102
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 16: into a room, people in nonprofits who are leading come

1103
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 16: for free, join me, you know, and having those conversations

1104
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 16: because grow that workforce, and you're really contributing to our

1105
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:35,919
Speaker 16: country in a beautiful way.

1106
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 3: Jerry and Campbell, thank you so much for coming in,

1107
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 3: the author of the book Feeding Unicorns, How Good Leaders

1108
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 3: Make Great Teams.

1109
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 2: O Money Show, How I Make My Money.

1110
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 3: Twenty five minutes now to eight the time. You'll know

1111
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 3: that there are plenty of ways to make money out

1112
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 3: of doing law, and there are plenty of commercial lawyers,

1113
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 3: and you see litigators and people who arrange contracts and

1114
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 3: all the rest. But it seems to me, and I'm

1115
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 3: no expert, we'll hear from an expert in the moment

1116
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 3: that entertainment law it's maybe a bit of a smaller

1117
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 3: and I suspect perhaps more interesting field. Pelissima Circle is

1118
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 3: a lawyer specializes in the entertainment industry. She's the managing

1119
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 3: director at PMA Incorporated. But let's good evening, and thanks

1120
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 3: so much for coming in tonight.

1121
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 2: Good evening, Stephen. I'm glad to be here.

1122
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 3: What is different about entertainment law?

1123
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 2: It's more fun.

1124
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 3: I was hoping you would say that.

1125
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 2: I can definitely say that it's more fun.

1126
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 17: It's got different elements to it, it's got different areas

1127
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 17: of law where you keep exploring within entertainment law. So

1128
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 17: today we could be assisting you with contract law, where

1129
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 17: I'm assisting you with drafting your contract. Tomorrow I could

1130
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 17: be helping you with your dispute. I could also be

1131
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 17: helping you with your employment matters, because at the end

1132
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 17: of the day, this is still your business. You employ

1133
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 17: a costume, employ a crew, and I need to ensure

1134
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 17: that your director is available to deliver for six months.

1135
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 17: So it's very interesting because we deal with something different

1136
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 17: every day, but it's got unique elements to it, where

1137
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 17: you know, we speak about rights rights in the film,

1138
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 17: your screenplay, who owns the film. I also work on

1139
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 17: films from the time that they start up until they finish,

1140
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 17: so I get to be a part of the chaos

1141
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 17: and I get to be a part of the joys

1142
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 17: of seeing a film completed and delivered.

1143
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I haven't really been spent much time on

1144
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 3: film shoots. My life hasn't been that glamorous, but I

1145
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 3: do get a sense that they're often ar chaotic. That's

1146
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 3: kind of the fun I think. I think people like

1147
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 3: that and it does work. I mean, it creates the

1148
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 3: it's the creativeness that creates something to be the kind

1149
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 3: of there, I say, the Legal Center. I have an

1150
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 3: image of you in a quiet little off as well.

1151
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 3: Everyone else is going nuts. What's that like?

1152
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 17: Listen, I've had to go to set before just to

1153
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 17: see it with.

1154
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 2: My own eyes.

1155
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 17: Yeah, but it's you get attached to the film as

1156
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 17: much as your clients do. Because this project started as

1157
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:26,440
Speaker 17: a script piece of paper. At some for some films,

1158
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 17: it doesn't even have funding. So I started with the

1159
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 17: concept when it was still being pitched, and I had

1160
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 17: to I've seen this idea grow, and I've also I'm

1161
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 17: now invested in seeing this project kick off, in seeing

1162
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 17: this project completed and seeing it on TV.

1163
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,320
Speaker 2: So it's it's it's a it's.

1164
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 17: A nice balance of fun, but it's just as stressful.

1165
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 9: You know.

1166
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 17: You you you set in your little corner and you're

1167
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 17: being told about the chaos on set and you just

1168
01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 17: have to find a way to fix and you have

1169
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 17: to sometimes have your lawyer head on while also having

1170
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 17: your business head on because there's money involved.

1171
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's money at stake.

1172
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 17: There's agreements which have been drafted where the film has

1173
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 17: to get completed and delivered, and it has to get

1174
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,200
Speaker 17: completed and delivered within a specific time.

1175
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 2: So I think passion.

1176
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 17: Yeah, passion has kept me excited, but it's just as

1177
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 17: stressful as a construction project where the building of a

1178
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 17: bridge is not going well and everybody comes to you

1179
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 17: and says, please help us fix it.

1180
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,439
Speaker 3: I can't think of many areas of the law where

1181
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 3: you could have that sense of interest in something that's

1182
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 3: being birthed, you know, and created. I think most of

1183
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 3: us get more interested in entertainment law when we see

1184
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 3: in the front page of some tabloid newspaper that this

1185
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 3: artist is in dispute with this one and they've called

1186
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 3: in the lawyers. What kind of disputes do you see

1187
01:02:58,880 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 3: the most?

1188
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 2: Often mostly rights?

1189
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 17: I think in the desperation of trying to break into

1190
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 17: the industry, I see a lot of artists signing away everything.

1191
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 17: By that, I mean you've given your rights for a

1192
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 17: certain number of years, you no longer hold the ip,

1193
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 17: the copyright. Now visiting someone else, you don't know. The

1194
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 17: difference between a co production and a commissioned project very

1195
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 17: big difference. And it was just I just wanted to

1196
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 17: get my project going. I wanted to secure the funding.

1197
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 17: Once you've signed on the dotted line and the funding

1198
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 17: has been advanced and the project has been delivered. Now

1199
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 17: we start approaching a lawyer to say, please help me,

1200
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 17: please help me resolve this issue.

1201
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 2: I want to know more about what I'm entitled to.

1202
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 17: I want to know more about how can we backtrack

1203
01:03:55,800 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 17: and get out of disagreement. So it's mainly that I

1204
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:04,240
Speaker 17: think the industry has advanced in a sense that there

1205
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 17: are a lot of producers that understand the importance of legals.

1206
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 17: They understand the importance of as part of your production

1207
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 17: budget having a portion allocated to getting legal advice. But

1208
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 17: there are also those that are breaking into the industry

1209
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 17: and education is still needed on that. To say, the

1210
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 17: paperwork starts even when the production has not started, and

1211
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 17: once you sign, you are legally bound by an agreement.

1212
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 2: So that's very common in our industry.

1213
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 3: And we all know you can't go back and change

1214
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 3: the agreement once you're in a dispute. You're in too

1215
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 3: much trouble. Then you mentioned the difference between was it

1216
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 3: a co production and.

1217
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 2: A project, a co production and a commission.

1218
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 3: And a commission project? What's the difference between. I mean,

1219
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 3: a co production might give someone a little bit of ownership,

1220
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 3: but a project, now.

1221
01:04:57,400 --> 01:05:03,200
Speaker 17: One hundred percent. Steven says, can you produce X for

1222
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 17: my show? He's commissioned you to produce a project. He

1223
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 17: also provides guidelines to say, this is how I wanted,

1224
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 17: this is the budget, this is the whole concept. And

1225
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 17: then when it comes to a co production, I am

1226
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 17: an attorney and I want to produce a reality show

1227
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:25,440
Speaker 17: about how fun my life is as an entertainment lawyer.

1228
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 17: But at the same time, I need someone who's in

1229
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:31,440
Speaker 17: the film space to assist me because I may know

1230
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 17: that the legal rope and et cetera, but I don't

1231
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 17: know whether it's going to be a thirty minute episode

1232
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 17: or whether it should be a forty five. So I

1233
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 17: get into a partnership with a producer and we co

1234
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:48,120
Speaker 17: produce the film together, each owning fifty to fifty for instance.

1235
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 17: So that's a co production because we co producing it together.

1236
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 17: It was our idea. There's no third party or person

1237
01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:00,400
Speaker 17: above us who requested us, like a distributor or or

1238
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 17: a TV channel to produce that production for them.

1239
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 3: There are a couple of things that I see. They've

1240
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 3: changed a little bit, but I see arguments about them

1241
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 3: all the time and reports about them. And the one

1242
01:06:12,320 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 3: is artists who are maybe mature in years, they're getting

1243
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 3: on a bit and they don't seem to have much

1244
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 3: of an income, and there's a big argument about whether

1245
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 3: they should have been paid more for their work, whether

1246
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 3: they should still be paid more. This takes us to

1247
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 3: the music rights collecting organizations and all of the arguments

1248
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 3: at Summerrow, which, speaking frankly, and I know virtually nothing

1249
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 3: about it from the outside, looks like a mess or

1250
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 3: it was. Maybe I'm hoping maybe it's been cleaned up.

1251
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 3: But is there something in our law that needs to

1252
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 3: change there or is that an example of people signing

1253
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:47,800
Speaker 3: agreements they should never have signed.

1254
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 17: I think our law has evolved when it comes to

1255
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 17: the FULLM and entertainment space. And I mean I also

1256
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 17: speak on this with regards to sports law, because as

1257
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 17: part of what I do, I was suspicious as in

1258
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 17: sports law. The law has evolved such that there are

1259
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 17: I would say, more regulations in place regarding how the

1260
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 17: industry works, regarding your rights, regarding how you should protect

1261
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 17: yourself legally, and it even goes as far as what

1262
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:18,280
Speaker 17: happens when there's a dispute.

1263
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 2: There's a guideline for that.

1264
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 17: The PSOL for instance, has their own inn cl handbook

1265
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 17: on how to you know they've got all the rules,

1266
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 17: and then there's also a disciplinary procedure for instance.

1267
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:30,440
Speaker 2: So back then.

1268
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 17: Football players could say I don't know much about what

1269
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 17: I need to do and what I'm not and not

1270
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 17: allowed to do. Today the law has evolved, and I

1271
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 17: would say with form and entertainment, the same education is there,

1272
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 17: the same regularization is also there. So it's more about

1273
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 17: understanding that this is as good as if you're an

1274
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:58,479
Speaker 17: actress or a soccer player. It's as good as being

1275
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 17: employed and you have a legal issue and you need

1276
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 17: assistance from specialists. And if you're a producer, it's as

1277
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 17: good as having any other business where you need to

1278
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 17: approach an accountant for counting advice and you need to

1279
01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:17,599
Speaker 17: approach a lawyer for legal advice. So maybe the with

1280
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:23,839
Speaker 17: with with social media and more issues being exposed. Something

1281
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 17: has been exposed. We all see it now, but the

1282
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 17: problems were there before. But I would say that now

1283
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,719
Speaker 17: we are more in a position to avoid these issues

1284
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:37,240
Speaker 17: than ten years ago.

1285
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:43,519
Speaker 3: For instance, has entertainment law maybe evolved more in the

1286
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:45,920
Speaker 3: last ten years than other areas of laws. It's still

1287
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 3: changing quite quickly. In some ways, it really has.

1288
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,160
Speaker 17: I mean a perfect example that I'll make is the

1289
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:55,959
Speaker 17: amount of projects that have moved to streaming as opposed

1290
01:08:56,000 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 17: to cinemas. Yeah, we experienced the big shock when COVID

1291
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 17: happened because the effect of that is that we couldn't

1292
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:08,799
Speaker 17: go to cinemas and everybody sat there and thought what next?

1293
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 17: And we saw streaming just boom after that because we

1294
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 17: had to find a way to all survive. So it

1295
01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:23,679
Speaker 17: has evolved a lot because with now moving from doing

1296
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:30,760
Speaker 17: work with distributors or funders locally to now doing work internationally,

1297
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 17: it's evolving because there are more opportunities available, there's more

1298
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 17: to learn, the legal contracts get more complicated.

1299
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,320
Speaker 2: So it has evolved a lot when.

1300
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 3: It comes to streaming. And you have someone like Netflix,

1301
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 3: for example, which have South African productions, show macs South

1302
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:52,360
Speaker 3: African productions and I'm sure canl plus we'll do more.

1303
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 3: Whatever happens. Does the law that we have does it

1304
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 3: take its lead from say, American law or law from

1305
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 3: somewhere else, or do we evolve our own? And I

1306
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:07,360
Speaker 3: say this because I can imagine a Netflix lawyer with

1307
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 3: an American twang coming in and landing and saying you've

1308
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:12,639
Speaker 3: all got to sign this, and everybody going and now

1309
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 3: hold on, you know, because they'll have a way of

1310
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 3: doing things. It's an international business to a large extent.

1311
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:20,960
Speaker 3: Do we get to develop our own law? Do we

1312
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:22,720
Speaker 3: kind of have to follow what other people are doing

1313
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 3: because they're bigger than us?

1314
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:27,759
Speaker 2: I think we develop our own law.

1315
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:33,400
Speaker 17: And this is simply because with film and entertainment evolving,

1316
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:38,560
Speaker 17: we also have to evolve. We have to develop the

1317
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:41,760
Speaker 17: law to deal with new issues that we never got

1318
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:44,679
Speaker 17: to deal with before. So if we're going to deal

1319
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 17: with who holds the intellectual property in the script, and

1320
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:52,520
Speaker 17: then now we've got VFX in place and special effects,

1321
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:57,480
Speaker 17: we now have to talk about what do they own? Yeah,

1322
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 17: do they own a portion of this? Know, they developed

1323
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:03,919
Speaker 17: it in a sense because they added some special effects.

1324
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:06,800
Speaker 17: So we develop it as we go with regards to

1325
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:09,559
Speaker 17: is our law the same with the other law? Certain

1326
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 17: things such as standard contractual terms. But I wouldn't say

1327
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 17: that we are behind as South Africa. I'd say that

1328
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 17: we are actually quite advanced in the way that our

1329
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 17: law has been regularized.

1330
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 3: Do are our performing performers? Are they as aware of

1331
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:33,720
Speaker 3: their rights as someone in a bigger market might be

1332
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:35,839
Speaker 3: one hundred percent.

1333
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 17: I mean, there was recently a protest against the GTIC,

1334
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:46,839
Speaker 17: and you know, for someone who started in the space

1335
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 17: where I was doing mostly cinema projects and projects that

1336
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 17: did a lot of work through their DTIC rebate, that

1337
01:11:55,240 --> 01:12:00,280
Speaker 17: was really amazing to see because you know, I don't

1338
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:03,240
Speaker 17: think the producers are fighting in a sense. They just

1339
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:06,439
Speaker 17: it's a cry for help to say we need the

1340
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:09,320
Speaker 17: we need the rebate. This is how it was before,

1341
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:14,640
Speaker 17: and this is the effect that we are suffering with

1342
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:19,559
Speaker 17: challenges that we're experiencing with the rebate. So definitely there's

1343
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 17: the everyone mostly everyone in the industry knows their rights

1344
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:28,599
Speaker 17: and they understand their law and they understand what they

1345
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 17: are entitled to in this field.

1346
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 3: We're speaking to Pelessimus sec of, the managing director of

1347
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 3: PMA Incorporate and expert on entertainment law but also sports law.

1348
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 3: As you heard, she's explaining to you how she makes

1349
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:44,680
Speaker 3: her money on The Money Show. It's eleven minutes now.

1350
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 13: Editor The Money Show, Stephen Krutez is brought to you

1351
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 13: by a corporate and investment backing Cloud, sponsor of the

1352
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 13: LMA ICMA loan and capital Markets Africa Summit twenty twenty

1353
01:12:57,439 --> 01:12:59,480
Speaker 13: six apps a registered FSP.

1354
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:04,639
Speaker 2: The Money Show How I Make my money?

1355
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:08,280
Speaker 3: We're talking about entertainment and sports law tonight, but less

1356
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:11,759
Speaker 3: I'm a cir course the managing director of PMA Incorporated PUNLESS.

1357
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:14,160
Speaker 3: I have a question for you as a consumer. When

1358
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:16,680
Speaker 3: I go onto YouTube, which I do from time to

1359
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 3: time for curiosity reasons, and I see a clip of

1360
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 3: a movie or a series, I always ask myself, is

1361
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:27,599
Speaker 3: someone getting money for this? You know? And you can

1362
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:31,719
Speaker 3: see international productions, you can see South African productions. How

1363
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:33,800
Speaker 3: does the law around that work? So if I'm a

1364
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 3: South African actor in a South African production for Netflix

1365
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 3: or the SABC or something, and I suddenly see that

1366
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:44,880
Speaker 3: five minutes scene on YouTube and it's getting millions of

1367
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:48,880
Speaker 3: views because obviously it's great, does someone get money for that?

1368
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:50,680
Speaker 3: Is there a way to manage that?

1369
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 2: Some do?

1370
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 17: Because it's it's the same as having an influencer that

1371
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 17: enters into an agreement with YouTube. The more views that

1372
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:04,680
Speaker 17: you get, the it now becomes commercialized.

1373
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:06,719
Speaker 2: But the mistake that.

1374
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 17: Others make is posting or uploading their work on YouTube

1375
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:17,160
Speaker 17: without an agreement. Now you've you've you've posted your work,

1376
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:22,240
Speaker 17: it's gone. In some instances, it's even happened that they

1377
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 17: haven't registered a trademark or an IP for the name of

1378
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:29,800
Speaker 17: the project or the rights in the project. So if

1379
01:14:29,960 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 17: done properly, you can make many from it.

1380
01:14:32,760 --> 01:14:35,519
Speaker 3: But otherwise you could just give away everything because it's theirs.

1381
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 3: And that's that true.

1382
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:40,680
Speaker 17: But if you've got your legals in order and you're

1383
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 17: getting paid from YouTube, then that's not an issue. I

1384
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 17: think it's more of an issue if the adverse occurs.

1385
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 3: You talk of influences. I don't know if you've represented any,

1386
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:54,640
Speaker 3: but I sometimes wonder that's an industry that's right for

1387
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:57,679
Speaker 3: people to sue, because these are people who don't really

1388
01:14:57,680 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 3: know a product. They haven't taken it through any kind

1389
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 3: of safety process or anything like that. From what I

1390
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 3: can see, there seems to be very little quality control,

1391
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 3: and yet there they are selling things and not telling

1392
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 3: the audience that that's what they're doing. It's not an

1393
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 3: explicit advert. I've almost been a little surprised you even't

1394
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 3: had more cases involving influences. You know, my childhood this

1395
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:21,280
Speaker 3: because they saw you doing it and something happened.

1396
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 17: I would say I've never represented an influencer before, but

1397
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:29,120
Speaker 17: I would hope that in the instance where they have

1398
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 17: sought legal advice or legal representation, that there is some

1399
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:40,120
Speaker 17: sort of discussion or recordal of some sort of indemnity

1400
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:43,679
Speaker 17: in the contract, because at the end of the day,

1401
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:47,720
Speaker 17: you know you believe in this product years. But if

1402
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:51,800
Speaker 17: there's a bad batch, for instance, you are here influencing

1403
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:55,880
Speaker 17: about a particular face cream. There's a bad batch, people

1404
01:15:55,920 --> 01:16:01,400
Speaker 17: start experiencing Ratio's elegies and etc. If I was your lawyer,

1405
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:04,679
Speaker 17: I would indemnify you to say I understand that I've

1406
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:07,759
Speaker 17: done my research on the product, it's been in business

1407
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:12,679
Speaker 17: for twenty years. In the event that it changes from

1408
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 17: what I know and you at the time of entering

1409
01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:19,280
Speaker 17: into this contract, I am here by indemnified, and I

1410
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 17: reserve my right to disassociate myself from the brand or post.

1411
01:16:25,880 --> 01:16:35,280
Speaker 17: I've just dished out the whole legal claus.

1412
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 3: I asked you at the start of their disputes and

1413
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:37,400
Speaker 3: things that you see, you know coming all the time,

1414
01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 3: and you made the point that people sign a way

1415
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 3: too much or they don't sign things. Do you see

1416
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:45,960
Speaker 3: disputes between companies very often or by the time that

1417
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:49,720
Speaker 3: companies get involved producing something together, their lawyers have been

1418
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 3: all over it, and they know exactly what they're doing.

1419
01:16:51,960 --> 01:16:53,920
Speaker 3: I mean, I would think the bigger companies probably don't

1420
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:56,960
Speaker 3: have disputes like that very often, simply because they would

1421
01:16:56,960 --> 01:16:59,880
Speaker 3: have spent money on lawyers. But I do sometimes want

1422
01:16:59,920 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 3: to know. There can be a song that's ahead this person,

1423
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 3: that this, this person did that obvious example of one,

1424
01:17:05,960 --> 01:17:08,760
Speaker 3: and people start to get very excited, do you. I mean,

1425
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:11,679
Speaker 3: we don't seem to see that many disputes in that area,

1426
01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 3: and considering how valuable some of this content is, you'd

1427
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:15,120
Speaker 3: think maybe we would.

1428
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:20,160
Speaker 2: I would say, what the company is? What you know?

1429
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:23,920
Speaker 17: The saving grace is that when you register your company,

1430
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 17: it is an entity on its own. You sort of

1431
01:17:28,320 --> 01:17:33,400
Speaker 17: separate yourself, as Blissa Maseko, from the business. You are

1432
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:35,760
Speaker 17: responsible for this company and you have to act in

1433
01:17:35,760 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 17: its best interests as a director when you are also

1434
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:42,280
Speaker 17: accountable to other directors. Even more, you know you have

1435
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:44,920
Speaker 17: to ensure that you're acting in the best interests of

1436
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:48,720
Speaker 17: the company. So perhaps we're not seeing that often, we're

1437
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 17: not seeing disputes like that because in that case, people

1438
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:56,960
Speaker 17: are understanding the importance of getting legal representation at the

1439
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:01,840
Speaker 17: right time to ensure that issues that may result in

1440
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:08,040
Speaker 17: a dispute arising or they receive assistance with that before

1441
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:11,840
Speaker 17: it even gets to a dispute. Remember, you enter into

1442
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:15,160
Speaker 17: a contract when the marriage is good and not when

1443
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:20,200
Speaker 17: you are fighting. So if done at the right time,

1444
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:22,640
Speaker 17: you will have a contract in place that says, in

1445
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 17: the event of a dispute, this is how the dispute

1446
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:28,240
Speaker 17: will be resolved. Of course, you'll have those instances where

1447
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:31,160
Speaker 17: it goes to arbitration and high courtes and etcetera. But

1448
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:34,759
Speaker 17: as a lawyer, you can already foresee that this dispute

1449
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:36,799
Speaker 17: is going to go this way because we had already

1450
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 17: recorded that this is how it's going to be resolved.

1451
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:44,880
Speaker 3: I sometimes, I mean, one group of people is very

1452
01:18:44,920 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 3: vocal in this area as actors. The vocal partly because

1453
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:49,240
Speaker 3: I think they have to be at the moment, and

1454
01:18:49,280 --> 01:18:53,200
Speaker 3: partly because they buy their very nature, speak well and

1455
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:55,719
Speaker 3: can do radio interviews and things. And I've been interested

1456
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 3: to hear from people like Jack dev Ryhan, who I'm

1457
01:18:58,439 --> 01:19:02,040
Speaker 3: sure you know, talking about what actors still need. Are

1458
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:05,679
Speaker 3: there obvious areas in entertainment law that you can see

1459
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:07,879
Speaker 3: are likely to change over the next few years.

1460
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:13,880
Speaker 17: Sure, I'm saying more and more actors contribute beyond more

1461
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:16,960
Speaker 17: than just acting to films, which is really amazing. I'm

1462
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:20,240
Speaker 17: seeing a lot of actors who are now becoming executive

1463
01:19:20,280 --> 01:19:26,200
Speaker 17: producers in films the where they are costed. I'm seeing

1464
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:32,240
Speaker 17: actors get funding and get involved in the production, funding

1465
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:35,599
Speaker 17: of the film and the equity of the film. And

1466
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:41,679
Speaker 17: I think it's good to see because the industry requires

1467
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:44,280
Speaker 17: you to evolve. If at some point the acting is

1468
01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 17: not working, you can fall back on the producing. And

1469
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:50,040
Speaker 17: if you fall back on the producing early enough, and

1470
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:52,800
Speaker 17: while you're in the acting, you get to learn about

1471
01:19:52,840 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 17: all the nuances that are required to be an excellent producer,

1472
01:19:56,280 --> 01:19:59,320
Speaker 17: how to get the funding, how to grow the business,

1473
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,360
Speaker 17: how to network, how to look at the acting and

1474
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 17: the finished project, but as at the same time know

1475
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 17: everything that is required to make it work till completion.

1476
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:16,280
Speaker 3: We've got just a minute left. Do you from where

1477
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:19,559
Speaker 3: you are now, do you see the entertainment industry growing?

1478
01:20:20,360 --> 01:20:23,280
Speaker 3: Because people are very worried about sort of streaming, very

1479
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:26,400
Speaker 3: worried about different ways. My own sence is that demand

1480
01:20:26,439 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 3: for entertainment will continue to grow, and so it will

1481
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,240
Speaker 3: keep growing. But I'm very much more interested in your view.

1482
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:35,120
Speaker 17: From a person who's sitting on the other side. I'm

1483
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:37,000
Speaker 17: seeing it grow a lot, and I think it will

1484
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:41,479
Speaker 17: still keep growing. I mean, we are a perfect example

1485
01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:44,000
Speaker 17: of that. When I started my law firm, there was

1486
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:48,720
Speaker 17: just me and then very quickly we grew because I

1487
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:52,320
Speaker 17: needed to train and bring in more lawyers into my space,

1488
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:55,519
Speaker 17: because the demand is getting more and more and more

1489
01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 17: as we go on.

1490
01:20:57,479 --> 01:20:59,759
Speaker 2: So I think definitely.

1491
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:02,719
Speaker 3: Palisa, thank you so much for coming in. Pealssamus Secor,

1492
01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:05,960
Speaker 3: the managing director of PMA, incorporated everything you wanted to

1493
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:08,120
Speaker 3: know about entertainment law.

1494
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:13,160
Speaker 13: The Money Show Stephen Kruritis is brought to you by

1495
01:21:13,240 --> 01:21:17,000
Speaker 13: Absolute Corporate and Investment Banking CROUD sponsor of the LMA

1496
01:21:17,320 --> 01:21:21,360
Speaker 13: ICMA Loan End Capital Markets Africa Summit twenty twenty six.

1497
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:23,200
Speaker 10: As the rated at FSP.

1498
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:28,120
Speaker 3: Well in the US still lots of consternation to use

1499
01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:31,120
Speaker 3: a big word about the tariffs and the uncertainty around it.

1500
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 3: The Dow Jones down one point sixty nine percent, the

1501
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:36,800
Speaker 3: NASDAK down one and a quarter percent, the S and

1502
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,840
Speaker 3: P five hundred down one point one four percent at

1503
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:42,240
Speaker 3: the moment, and of course. You know the reason for

1504
01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:44,600
Speaker 3: this is that, yes, the Supreme Court struck down the

1505
01:21:44,640 --> 01:21:48,160
Speaker 3: Trump administration's tariffs. Trump then immediately said to you an

1506
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:50,800
Speaker 3: institute of ten percent global tariff and AUGUS going into

1507
01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:54,080
Speaker 3: the US then increased that to fifteen percent. And frankly,

1508
01:21:54,560 --> 01:21:56,720
Speaker 3: no one really knows what's going to happen next. I

1509
01:21:56,760 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 3: do know, however, that Aubrey Mussuano is next, and I'll

1510
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:01,720
Speaker 3: be back with you tomorrow. Good evening, it's ice clock.