1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: There's confirmation over the weekend from the presidency, President Sarahromopausa 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: now signing into law the Public Service Amendment Act, being 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: described by some people as the biggest reform in thirty 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: years or perhaps even more. Last week you heard the 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: AG analyst Casey Spraue explaining how this could be a 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: huge game changer for markets for investments in our markets 7 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: because it should make our governments so much more effective. 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: Ivor Chipkin is director at the New South Institute. Good evening, 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for your time. We've seen so many different reforms 10 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: coming through, in many cases coming through Parliament. Why is 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: this one so important? 12 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 2: Good evening, Stephen. Of course it came out on the 13 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 2: first of April, but it's now April. Fool's joke. I 14 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 2: think it is the most important reform of the government 15 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: system in South Africa in thirty years, at least since 16 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: the signing of the Constitution in nineteen ninety six. And 17 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: I'll tell you why. It's not just another another piece 18 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: of policy, another another law of whether the Parliament has 19 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 2: made which they want, which don't get implemented or gets 20 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: implemented improperly, partly because the law itself is its own 21 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 2: implementation at least in the early stages. So let the 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 2: next day what I mean. Currently we have a situation 23 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: where by law, not by policy of the government or 24 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 2: not by policy of the ruling what was the ruling 25 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 2: party day African National Congress, but by virtue of the 26 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four Public Service Act. Politicians what the law 27 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 2: calls the executive authority, and that is the president, cabalint 28 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: ministers at the national level and provincial ministers at provincial 29 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: level have authority in all sorts of fundamental administrative matters. 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: Quite incredibly, so it's the politicians that have authority over 31 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: our administrations in many in many key facts, many key functions. 32 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: So for example, it's our politicians that have responsibility for 33 00:01:54,440 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: appointing public servants, heads of departments, members of staff and departments. 34 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: It's our politicians that have responsibility by law for operational 35 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: decisions inside inside departments h R. The way they structured 36 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: what it systems, they use all the kinds of things 37 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 2: which should normally be done by professional administrators. Professional public 38 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: servants are actually powers which are retained or held by 39 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 2: our politicians until until the first of April. Because what 40 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: the amendment does is it takes those powers away from 41 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 2: our politicians and it gives them correctly to our senior 42 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 2: officials in government, So that that is the huge So 43 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 2: the passing of the law has immediately removed those powers 44 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: from our key politicians. Of course, the other parts of 45 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 2: the implementation, they are going to be complex to implement. 46 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: Who replace your current crop, et cetera, et cetera. We 47 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: can get to that, but that is the fundamental aspect, 48 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: and that's why it's so important. 49 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: I mean, if you listen to any of the policing 50 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: commissions for just a moment, you'll hear about the impact 51 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: of politics and politicians on appointments, even in the granting 52 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: of contracts, which even then I think was perhaps illegal. 53 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,839 Speaker 1: So that link is now broken by law. But there 54 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: is a habit, a longstanding habit, and there was one 55 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: even before nineteen ninety four, of course, that people would 56 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: do officials would do what the politician wanted, often even 57 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: a politician that technically would have had no authority over 58 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: a department. How do we make sure then that people 59 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 1: get out of that habit? And isn't that going to 60 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,399 Speaker 1: be a lot more difficult than just signing something into law. 61 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: Well, fortunately we don't have to wait for the good 62 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: faith of people. We've gone through and experienced a very 63 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: major political shift in South Africa since the election in 64 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, since May twenty twenty four, and essentially 65 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: we're in the world. We're in the world of coalition government. Now. 66 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: African National Congress lost its majority in parliament. We ruled 67 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: through coalition government of national unity. It looks like the provincial, 68 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: the local government elections coming up, we're going to give 69 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: us more coalitions at local government level. So the ability 70 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 2: of any one political party and its network of politicians 71 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: to be able to coerce or to influence, or to 72 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 2: persuade or to encouraged through party political means public servants 73 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 2: to do things. I think that era has shifted, and 74 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: this is why this reform is so important, because coalitions 75 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: now will not have opposition parties or coalitions will no 76 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 2: longer have the kind of authority over public administrations that 77 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: the ANC's enjoyed for the last for the last thirty years, 78 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 2: and that is significant. You mentioned the police. I mean, 79 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: the police is a fantastically interesting story in this regard, 80 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 2: if you'll bear with me for a second, I mean, 81 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: what's so interesting about the nineteen nineties is that the 82 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: reforms and the police are a start to have really 83 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 2: meaningful effects. There are real, real declines in the murder 84 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 2: rate in particular, there are huge improvements in policing. I mean, 85 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: one of the most notable ones, for example, that I 86 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 2: that I came across in my research is that ordinary 87 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: Black South Africans for whom the police are always a 88 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 2: represented a figure of violence and opposition, are starting in 89 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties to call the police when they've got 90 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: a domestic issue at home or when they've got a robbery, 91 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 2: et cetera. To never never happened before that the police 92 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 2: could be considered a resource for ordinary Black South Africans. 93 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: Then in the two thousands there's the politicization of the police, 94 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 2: so they undo all that work and we are living 95 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: with the consequences. We see it in the Madlanga Commission. 96 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: Highly politicized the police leadership. Also, one has to be 97 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 2: astonished by the caliber of people that have into the 98 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 2: leadership of the police. All of that has got to 99 00:05:54,880 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 2: do with the heavily politicized, heavily politicized administrations. And what 100 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: this amendment does it begins to make that more difficult. 101 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: We heard last week from a market analyst, I mean 102 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: someone who invests for a living, suggesting that this would 103 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: be a game changer for our economy, that investors had 104 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: not noticed this. Would you agree with that? I mean, 105 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: is this going to have the kind of impact on 106 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: the economy that people wouldn't ness? You wouldn't necessarily be 107 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: able to point to this moment and say it's because 108 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: of that. But over time it will have some sort 109 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: of cumulative effect. 110 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: So if we implement it effectively, and I think there's 111 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: a good chance that we can, Yes, I think it will. 112 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: It's not going to be immediate. But take for example, 113 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: I mean, so many companies today are essentially paying or 114 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: doing paying for services in compensation with a failure of government, 115 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: whether it's in the space of crime and security, medical services, 116 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 2: all sorts of new municipalities, all sorts of of things 117 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 2: this muntiality is supposed to be doing. Many companies are 118 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,679 Speaker 2: having to take on for themselves. So as administration start 119 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: to function more professionally, I think it's going to be 120 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: a huge relief for many many companies in many parts 121 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: of the country and in large parts and last part 122 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: of the economy. So I do think this is an 123 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 2: important reform, and just sometimes we tend not to think comparatively. 124 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: But if you look at other places in the world, 125 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: I mean, these are the really the game changer reforms 126 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 2: in Europe at the end of the nineteenth century, twentieth century. 127 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: They are the game changer reforms in the United States 128 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: at the beginning of the twentieth century and especially during 129 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties. If you want to know what made 130 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 2: America great, it's the introduction of a law very very 131 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 2: similar to the one itself. Wis just passed. Implementation of 132 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 2: that law off barb under the Roossult administration after the 133 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: end of the Second World War. These are game changing reforms, 134 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: and I think for business they're especially important. Hi A. 135 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: Chipkin, thank you so much, director at the New South Institute. 136 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: To appreciate the time