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Speaker 1: Reports today. They might have been reports earlier than today,

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Speaker 1: but today is the first day that I started looking

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Speaker 1: at reports about South African issues. Suggesting that there is

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Speaker 1: a remake of the history curriculum underway. The Department of

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Speaker 1: Basic Education and not so long ago appointed a ministerial

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Speaker 1: tasking to review how history is taught and to redesign

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Speaker 1: the curriculum, potentially to make history compulsory again. And I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't mind history being compulsory. I do think that the

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Speaker 1: study of history is incredibly important, and I think an awareness,

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Speaker 1: an alertness to what history can tell us if we

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Speaker 1: choose to listen, is also important. The proposed curriculum change

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Speaker 1: would place stronger emphasis on African history, pre colonial societies

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Speaker 1: and the history of colonialism and a part eight the goal,

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Speaker 1: according to government, let's develop a deeper understanding of South

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Speaker 1: Africa's past and strengthened social cohesion and national identity. Asme

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Speaker 1: Fondevnt is an educational anthropologist and joins us now from Johannesburg,

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Speaker 1: as may would you say the current history curriculum is

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Speaker 1: not fit for purpose?

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Speaker 2: Hi? Yes, you know, I think it goes both ways.

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Speaker 2: It isn't the case that it is giving kids access

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Speaker 2: and context to historical backgrounds that they need to know.

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Speaker 2: But then there's also the other fundamental part which I

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Speaker 2: always like to ask, is what is the purpose of

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Speaker 2: doing it to begin with? And so depending on where

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Speaker 2: you're standing on the fence, you're going to say, yes,

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Speaker 2: it is teaching to purpose or it's not.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So there isn't a there isn't a from a

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Speaker 1: distance analytical view, it is or it isn't. It depends

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Speaker 1: whether you have an affection for South African Aparte eight

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Speaker 1: history or not.

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Speaker 2: I think it's more so. I think it's a little

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Speaker 2: bit more nuanced than that. So yes, there is always

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Speaker 2: going to be analytical opinion on that. And like you said,

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Speaker 2: history is so important to all learners. I think people

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Speaker 2: just they always kind of lump history is one of

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Speaker 2: those you know, cultural subjects or whatever they want to

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Speaker 2: call it, where they say, you know, you have to

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Speaker 2: be able to look at the past to see the future,

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Speaker 2: you know, all of those sort of effusive ways that

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Speaker 2: we can phrase it. But understanding what history is at

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Speaker 2: its core and what its teaching kids is you know,

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Speaker 2: systemic thinking, it's critical thinking, it's looking at behavioral patterns,

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Speaker 2: how people solved problems, how people could have solved problems strategy,

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Speaker 2: And so if we look at history as that that,

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Speaker 2: then it becomes more of a core subject than in

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Speaker 2: our calves, depending on what type of citizens we want,

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Speaker 2: you know, contributes to symbers of society. And so when

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Speaker 2: our posts in the beginning, it's going what kind of

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Speaker 2: citizens do we want at the end of this?

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Speaker 1: And if the new history curriculum is designed to make

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Speaker 1: the history students think in a particular way, then it

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Speaker 1: is as little fit for purpose as the current What

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Speaker 1: we want is the history curriculum that opens the way

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Speaker 1: for independent thinking about history.

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Speaker 2: Correct and that usually means seeing all sides of the

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Speaker 2: proverbial coin, not just one or two, or not just

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Speaker 2: one or two policy makers that have decided what side

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Speaker 2: of the coin we should look at. And I think

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Speaker 2: this is then where it becomes very because history is

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Speaker 2: very emotive, especially in a country like South Africa, where

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Speaker 2: we do have such a ruptured, traumatic past, and I

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Speaker 2: think the natural human tendencies either to want to like

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Speaker 2: completely move over it and almost talk about it a

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Speaker 2: little bit like it didn't exist, or to then quickly

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Speaker 2: swing completely to the other side. And I think This

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Speaker 2: is something that needs to be handled with incredibly delicate

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Speaker 2: gloves because of the trauma that we have around it.

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Speaker 2: And that is the point of are the teachers able

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Speaker 2: to do that given their structural constraints currently in the

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Speaker 2: education system. Are we going to be able to allow

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Speaker 2: teachers to teach history in such a way where we

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Speaker 2: aren't retraumatizing people, but we're allowing them to see what

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Speaker 2: actually happened. And where we can go from I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, do you retraumatize a sixteen year old if you

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Speaker 1: talk about history that happened one hundred years or forty

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Speaker 1: years before that sixteen year old was born.

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Speaker 2: I think you can, and well not, I think I

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Speaker 2: know you can because we have long lived generational legacies

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Speaker 2: happening here. And so although that sixteen year old that's

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Speaker 2: sixteen year years old today in twenty twenty six didn't

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Speaker 2: live through that sort of historical trauma, that it's generational.

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Speaker 2: It's come down from generation to generation, and each time

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Speaker 2: it changes a little bit. And so when we are

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Speaker 2: completely changing the curriculum to look either one way or

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Speaker 2: look the other, we will always be denying someone's history.

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Speaker 1: Then if I could crudely summarize what I've heard from you, Esme,

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Speaker 1: it's not It's not necessarily a bad idea, nor is

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Speaker 1: it necessarily a good idea to have a new history curriculum.

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Speaker 1: Everything depends on who teaches that curriculum and how exactly. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: let's wait and see what's in it then, esme. Van

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Speaker 1: Deevnti is an educational anthropologist. Thank you very much for

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Speaker 1: talking to us.