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Speaker 1: The money show business unusual.

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Speaker 2: So I'm sure this has happened to you, It's happened

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Speaker 2: to me. You're a part of a team and someone's

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Speaker 2: someone Sometimes it's been myself does something that's just fundamentally wrong.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's even a boss, and it has to be

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Speaker 2: you have to find a way to recover. Now you

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Speaker 2: have a functioning team. Someone's made a big mistake, but

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Speaker 2: you as a team work. You know what this one mistake,

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Speaker 2: I mean, very few mistakes should be sort of unforgivable.

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Speaker 2: So how do you manage? How do you manage to

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Speaker 2: hold people accountable and to forgive Superior moyl is the

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Speaker 2: organizational behavior, especially Supua good evening, such an interesting question.

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Speaker 2: We always demand accountability and standards. We never really talk

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Speaker 2: about forgiveness and all of that.

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Speaker 1: We never do Steven, And I think even ways like

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Speaker 1: forgiveness just sounds weird and softly, yes, particularly when when

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Speaker 1: you refer to them in the workplace. And it's it's

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Speaker 1: always interesting for me because you know, when you look

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Speaker 1: at teams, you realize that we're just human beings before

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Speaker 1: we are employees. And therefore, any any relationship that that

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Speaker 1: you have, you're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna hit each other,

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Speaker 1: and and love your acknowledgement that you are also going

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Speaker 1: to head people. And unless we create an environment, a

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Speaker 1: culture of forgiveness, or a culture where actual things can

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Speaker 1: be able to be sufficed, you know, we're eterually going

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Speaker 1: to suffer. And it's not really about excusing wrongdoing. In fact,

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Speaker 1: it's not even about forgetting people say for for for

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Speaker 1: forgive and forget. It's not even about that. It's about

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Speaker 1: just understanding how we need to overcome past heads while

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Speaker 1: we're working. Because the emotional toil of going to a

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Speaker 1: place that triggers you every day is really really heavy.

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Speaker 2: There's so many things that come out of this. I mean,

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Speaker 2: for one, and this gets to a very deep issue superway,

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Speaker 2: is how long do you hold the anger and frustration

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Speaker 2: and can you make a conscious choice to let it go?

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Speaker 2: I think for some people that's incredibly hard. I think

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Speaker 2: there's some things you can't let go. Sometimes it can

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Speaker 2: be a small thing, but you actually find it very

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Speaker 2: hard to let go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a difficult thing. And that's why you know,

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Speaker 1: many people who study forgiveness, they often differentiate between what

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Speaker 1: they call decisional forgiveness and emotional forgiveness, because emotional forgiveness

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Speaker 1: is that deeper level that you're talking about where something

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Speaker 1: is hit you so hard and you're just unable to

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Speaker 1: recover from it. But there is something called decisional forgiveness

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Speaker 1: where you literally make a decision that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: reduce the emotional trigger that this thing has. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to make a decision to forgive this particular person, whether

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Speaker 1: I'm feeling it at that particular time or not, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to make a decision. And for me, separating the

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Speaker 1: decision to forgive from those emotional experiences of forgiveness is

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Speaker 1: very useful because you then can't have people keep saying

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Speaker 1: to you move on because you know there is a

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Speaker 1: lingering head. But you've made a decision that me and

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Speaker 1: this person have to move forward together, and therefore we'll

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Speaker 1: find a way to lean on the decision cognitively rather

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Speaker 1: than emotionally, because the emotional part that's the hard pad

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Speaker 1: to heal.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you can have a really good relationship with someone

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Speaker 2: and have had for say five or six years, You've

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Speaker 2: worked with them for a long time, you have a

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Speaker 2: way of being together. Something happens and two or three

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Speaker 2: days later, say, you know, on a Monday. So after

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Speaker 2: a weekend, you come in and you almost are ready

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Speaker 2: to instinctively greet them in the way that you did

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Speaker 2: before this bad thing happened. Then, just as you do,

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Speaker 2: you remember the baad thing. Do you need to remember

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Speaker 2: the good part a little more if you can.

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Speaker 1: What is even more damaging, Steven, is that at that

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Speaker 1: point when you remember the bad stuff, most of the

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Speaker 1: time you're not going to even say it, and so

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Speaker 1: they just realize that something has changed in you and

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Speaker 1: maybe even what you think the person is done. And

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Speaker 1: many of these relationships are broken because someone did something.

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Speaker 1: They're not even aware that they did something, but they've

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Speaker 1: had you. And some of these things are fatal. In

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Speaker 1: the meeting and I was speaking, you were not even

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Speaker 1: aware that I was speaking, and you spoke over me,

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Speaker 1: and it just looked to me like this was very intentional.

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Speaker 1: And many of those things because we never really questioned,

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Speaker 1: we never really say to the person, and I noticed

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Speaker 1: something a little bit different on that particular meeting. Just conclude,

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Speaker 1: over the weekend, you've been moling over this whole thing,

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Speaker 1: and then when you come back, because you don't want

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Speaker 1: to address unfortunately now have an emotional reaction to that

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Speaker 1: particular person. It would even be useful that even before

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Speaker 1: you even try to remember the good stuff, if it

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Speaker 1: is possible to have the courage to take that that

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Speaker 1: cowork cut to side and say this is what I've noticed,

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Speaker 1: I'd really love to hear you about what actually happened.

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Speaker 2: The other thing is about whether the person who's done

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Speaker 2: the bad thing can you forgive without an acknowledgment from

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Speaker 2: them that they've done the bad thing. How big a

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Speaker 2: factor is that, because sometimes, especially in a workplace where

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Speaker 2: you've got something to lose, it can be quite hard

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Speaker 2: to say I've done the wrong thing. If you say

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Speaker 2: you've done the wrong thing, your boss could use that

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Speaker 2: against you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So, so that's very interesting because we already know

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Speaker 1: that generally the idea of forgiveness becomes much much easier

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Speaker 1: if someone is acknowledged. So generally most people would want

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Speaker 1: to say I really didn't want anything more. I just

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Speaker 1: wanted somebody to say I realized what I've done and

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. And sometimes, because of our dynamics in the workplace,

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Speaker 1: where someone is already thinking that could be a grievance,

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Speaker 1: that could be a disciplinary hearing someone just doesn't you know,

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Speaker 1: acknowledge that, so it becomes very difficult. That's where you

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Speaker 1: end up leaning towards the decisional forgiveness Stephen, where you say,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to make a decision to forgive this person anyway,

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Speaker 1: regardless of the fact that that has been addressed. But

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Speaker 1: if you're a leader, it's very important for you to

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Speaker 1: be able to suffacee these things and therefore create certain

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Speaker 1: sessions and check ins where you're able to try and

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Speaker 1: find out the emotional temperature of the team, so that

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Speaker 1: in that safe space where the acknowledgment of past heads

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Speaker 1: could actually not stink as much as a disciplinary you

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Speaker 1: remove the sting by creating a great atmosphere, some of

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Speaker 1: that acknowledgment can come, and it's very important for people

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Speaker 1: to know that they won't be replications for certain things

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Speaker 1: happened there because apology sincerity is the biggest contributor to

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Speaker 1: the to the ease of of of of forgiveness. But

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Speaker 1: if that's not coming for your own emotional health, what

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Speaker 1: then do you do You lean towards decisional or you

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Speaker 1: have a conversation with the person.

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Speaker 2: Can a leader suggest to a person that they kind

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Speaker 2: of let go of the pain that they forgive, often

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Speaker 2: going to be a younger person who maybe hasn't been

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Speaker 2: in a situation like this before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's very very tricky because the power dynamics

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Speaker 1: between the leader and the young employee. What you don't

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Speaker 1: want to do is to create an environment that you're

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Speaker 1: pressury pressurizing the targets to just move on while in

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Speaker 1: justice remains unresolved. So from a leadership point of view,

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Speaker 1: what people are hoping for you is that you must

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Speaker 1: be able to We want justice from you. We want

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Speaker 1: sincere support, not the one that only looks at the

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Speaker 1: so called targets, but one that will administer justice and

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Speaker 1: make sure that people are held accountable. And you want

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Speaker 1: something you know like that. So as a leader is

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Speaker 1: very difficult. That's why you know, getting an objective party

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Speaker 1: like an HR person for example, at that particular time

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Speaker 1: might be great. Although we don't want to always outsource

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Speaker 1: our courage to HR, but at that particular time it

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Speaker 1: may be so useful because having you as a leader

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Speaker 1: telling people to move on might stink.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I can I can imagine if you are Moya,

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Speaker 2: thanks so much. Such interesting issue. The organizational behavior specialist

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Speaker 2: and as he says, it does feel almost weird to

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Speaker 2: be talking in a professional space about forgiveness, but actually

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Speaker 2: so important